

==========

Subject: RE: Echinacea not Echinacia

From: aphrk@Msu.oscs.montana.edu

Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1993 07:46:37

--------

That's spelled Echinacea not the other way.  It is also called Purple

Coneflower a daisy-looking plant that grows on the prairies of North

America and down into Tennessee even.  The Germans caught onto this

Native American herb and now grow it in Europe, have made over 200 remedies

from it including toothpaste, cream, tincture and tablets.  It is very

popular there and is becoming very popular here.  



Two books on Echinacea... one by Steven Foster, the other by Christopher

Hobbs will answer most all your questions about this herb and how to

use it appropriately.  



It's main effect is on the immune system as a tonic (supports the T-cells)

and is also an antiinflammatory.



Robyn Klein









==========

Subject: RE: Echinacea not Echinacia

From: j0m1742@venus.tamu.edu (MANHART, JAMES)

Date: 1 Oct 1993 15:35 CDT

--------

In article <009735B7.8F1DEF20@Msu.oscs.montana.edu>, aphrk@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes...

>That's spelled Echinacea not the other way.  



>Two books on Echinacea... one by Steven Foster, the other by Christopher

>Hobbs will answer most all your questions about this herb and how to

>use it appropriately.  

> 

>It's main effect is on the immune system as a tonic (supports the T-cells)

>and is also an antiinflammatory.

> 

>Robyn Klein





I read somewhere that you can test the quality of Echinacea tinctures

by putting a drop on your tongue.  If it is "good" it will make your

tongue numb and if it doesn't you should take it back (the tincture, 

not your tongue).  I tried it with some Echinacea I had just purchased 

and it did make my tongue numb.  Quality control for the masses.



These are also very attractive plants and popular in gardens.  You

can purchase seeds or plants just about anywhere.  I believe they

generally will tolerate dry conditions and they should probably be

grown in well-drained soil.









Jim Manhart, Dept. of Biology, Texas A&M University

College Station, TX 77843-3258, (409) 845-3356, 

email:  J-Manhart@TAMU.EDU (Internet) J0M1742@TAMVENUS (Bitnet)









==========

Subject: Re: Echinacea not Echinacia

From: gorilla@cats.ucsc.edu (Christopher John Arnold)

Date: 4 Oct 1993 17:30:24 GMT

--------



Quoth j0m1742@venus.tamu.edu (MANHART, JAMES) not too long ago...

>In article <009735B7.8F1DEF20@Msu.oscs.montana.edu>, aphrk@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes...

>

>I read somewhere that you can test the quality of Echinacea tinctures

>by putting a drop on your tongue.  If it is "good" it will make your

>tongue numb and if it doesn't you should take it back (the tincture, 

>not your tongue).  I tried it with some Echinacea I had just purchased 

>and it did make my tongue numb.  Quality control for the masses.

>

Are you sure this has nothing to do with the alchohol in tinctures?

>

>

>Jim Manhart, Dept. of Biology, Texas A&M University

>College Station, TX 77843-3258, (409) 845-3356, 

>email:  J-Manhart@TAMU.EDU (Internet) J0M1742@TAMVENUS (Bitnet)



-Chris Arnold	gorilla@cats.ucsc.edu













==========

Subject: Athsma

From: greenie3@salmon.micro.umn.edu (luisa beltran)

Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1993 18:09:58 GMT

--------



i've been considering going to homopathic remidies to control my asthma, as oposed to the man made drugs I am currently taking.

Does any one know, or tried themselves, to make the switch?





-- 

+--------------------+-------------------------------------+-----------------+

|      [ ] [ ]       | e-mail: belt0003@student.tc.umn.edu | L Elena Beltran |

|      / \ / \       | other(s): elena0003@aol.com         | 1263 Timbershore|

|    [ ] [ ] [ ]     |           greenie3@mermaid.micro	   | Eagan, MN       |

|		     -----+ 				   | Zip : 55123     |	

| University of Minesota  | 		  		   | (612) 454-6895  |

+-------------------------+--------------------------------+-----------------+











==========

Subject: fda reg's

From: jim.kaade@pcohio.com (Jim Kaade)

Date: Fri,  1 Oct 93 17:14:00 -0500

--------

I'm not a regular reader of this confrence so if I'm

asking a stupid question don't flame me. A friend asked me

to get some info on the FDA regulation that are going into effect concerning food supplements and vitamins. Can anyone 

tell me if there is an archive somewhere that I can get a FAQ or files on the pro's and con's of it, when it goes into effect, what it will cover, ect...

Post it here to me or E-mail me at

jim.kaade@pcohio.com



Thanks.



... Catch the Blue Wave!

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12









==========

Subject: Freedom of Assimilation (was Re: TriChromalene(sp?))

From: music@erich.triumf.ca (FRED W. BACH)

Date: 1 Oct 1993 16:59 PST

--------

In article <28fc2mINN2pm@lynx.unm.edu>, webber@ud17501.mdc.com (Webber)

 writes...



  [ stuff deleted ]



#Interesting.  Unfortunately, the 'Right to Assimilate' isn't mentioned in the

# U.S. Constitution anywhere.



   I know that.  I coined the phrase a few weeks ago in this newsgroup.  I

 think that we should have the right to determine which herbs we use for

 medicinal purposes, and what we put into our minds as well.  Also, it

 should be allowed that people/companies can market the dried herbal

 preparations.  It just seems to go so well with the spirit of Freedom 

 that the USA espouses.  Even Communist China allows such herbal preparations

 so why should the "free" USA ban them?  My contention is that it's money

 which is behind their motives.  But some choose to disagree.  I suppose

 they have never seen any pertinent $$$ figures on the subject.



   Fortunately, and Nancy and Dianne haven't picked up on this one yet- so I

 will beat them to it, the very same argument could be made by drug addicts.

 Well, I draw the line at herbs/drugs which are provably harmfuly addictive 

 or which cause dangerous mental abberations.  There are plenty of dangerous

 herbs.  Ban 'em after they prove that they are dangerous.  I am indeed

 thankful for any governmental protection when it comes to those.  Perhaps

 those kinds of herbs have some medical uses, but they should be regulated

 (eg marijuana).  I don't think we need a bunch more "intoxicated" drivers

 on the roads.  I'm sure N&D will agree with me here.





#(Altho, the right to free ASSOCIATION is, and is considered pretty

# fundamental down here.  But then, I've never seen

# what passes for the Canadian Constitution.  I guess Sister Mary DeSade

# didn't think it was important...)

# 

#But, other that that, you sort of make sense.



   Thanks. :-)   (I wrapped your long lines for you.)



#Webber@ssdgwy.mdc.com



 Fred W. Bach ,    Operations Group        |  Internet: music@erich.triumf.ca

 TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility)    |  Voice:  604-222-1047 loc 327/278

 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS            |  FAX:    604-222-1074

 University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA   V6T 2A3



 These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question.

 They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers.









==========

Subject: royal bee jelly

From: <PHI20052@UCF1VM.BITNET>

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1993 00:19:08 EDT

--------

Royal Bee Jelly is a gimmick to seperate you from your money. The makers of thi

s product make all kinds of outragous claims about the product including increa

sed sexual desire to extending life span. Long story short, whats good for bees

 ain't necessarilly good for people. Save your money, maybe take in a show.









==========

Subject: _Ginko Biloba_ How to sought

From: MULROY@EPISAS.EPI.WISC.EDU (ROBERT MULROY)

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 93 10:00:11 GMT

--------

By some fortuitous chance, these smelly trees are very popular up here, and

they're about done with their leaves.



Anybody who posts about hows & whys will receive my secret pickle recipe via

e-mail.



Thanks & Peace



Bob, 



STANDARD DISCLAIMERS APPLY: 

The opinions expressed are not necessarily shared by this organization.



Just because I walk alone in the woods and say things in Latin, -that doesn't

make me a witch! 









==========

Subject: vegetarian chili recipe needed

From: steriti@cpe.uml.edu (Ron Steriti)

Date: 2 Oct 1993 13:40:17 GMT

--------

i've been switching to a vegetarian diet and have been struggling

with my legumes.

I cant seem to get a good chili going



i tend to like navy beans but the last time they wouldn't get soft

(i used this little crock pot that might not have gotten hot enough)

i usually use this box of veg. chili mix i get from the natural food store.



i also tried red beans (rasmah beans in india) and some indian spices,

they cooked great but tasted terrible. (Actually i was at an indian friends

graduation party  and he had an awesome vegetarian chili that tasted just like

real meat chili but he won't give me the recipe)



here's what i do:



	1. soak beans overnight

	2. discard water

	3. cook beans in crock pot till soft (all day)

	4. cook chili mix and add cooked beans



thanks

ron 



-- 







Ron Steriti

UMass Lowell

Electrical Engineering Dept.

1 University Ave

Lowell, MA  01854



steriti@cpe.dragon.uml.edu











==========

Subject: Re: vegetarian chili recipe needed

From: walter@watson.ibm.com (Walter Wilson)

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1993 04:19:29 GMT

--------

Well, I'm from New mexico, and this is what I do:

 - Use Pinto Beans

 - wash, soak, drain, rinse

 - bring water to boil, add beans, onion, garlic cloves

   chili powder (just ground chilies, preferably from

   Hatch, NM, or from Chimayo, NM - not that horrible

   stuff that comes in a can, or is "chili powder"

   with other stuff)

   gound cumin

 - simmer until it is all eaten. :-)



Serve with 3layer corn bread.

SOmetimes I mix in some cheddar cheese and lettuce when

I'm serving it (NOT cooked with it). 

I have occasionally cooked it mixed with

rice or lentils, and sometimes with carrots.



It's pretty important to cook the spices with the beans.



-- 



  Walter G. Wilson  (walter@watson.ibm.com)

  The opinions expressed here are my own.



  "My plans for the year all laid out...

   Ah... A dream in Springtime "

     -- Shodo (Go Seigen)









==========

Subject: Re: vegetarian chili recipe neededperties

From: ap599@yfn.ysu.edu (Ron Schwarz)

Date: 3 Oct 1993 06:30:40 GMT

--------



In a previous article, steriti@cpe.uml.edu (Ron Steriti) says:



>i've been switching to a vegetarian diet and have been struggling

>with my legumes.

>I cant seem to get a good chili going

>

>i tend to like navy beans but the last time they wouldn't get soft

>(i used this little crock pot that might not have gotten hot enough)

>i usually use this box of veg. chili mix i get from the natural food store.



I'm not a vegetarian, but I've been cutting my meat intake way down,

and feeling better, but I do enjoy meat (not bloody steaks, which make

me nauseous thinking about, but I do like stir-fried venison peppersteak,

and broiled chicken-wings, _with_ skin) in moderation.



Now, the beans.  My favorite bean for chili type stuff is called the

Yellow Eye bean.  I get them at Krogers (Mt. Pleasant Michigan) they are

grown in this region, I think you should be able to get them other places as

well.  Absolutely delicious, great texture, (I don't like beans with tough

skins, like kidney beans) cook great.  You can soak them for a few hours,

or you can just simmer them a little longer.  About 3 to 3.5 hours seems

to do it, and towards the end, you mix them up fast with a fork, and it makes

a nice thick gravy/sauce/whatever.



I also like Limas, but would never put them in chili -- Limas are the

candy of the legume world, in my opinion.









>i also tried red beans (rasmah beans in india) and some indian spices,

>they cooked great but tasted terrible. (Actually i was at an indian friends

>graduation party  and he had an awesome vegetarian chili that tasted just like

>real meat chili but he won't give me the recipe)

>

>here's what i do:

>

>	1. soak beans overnight

>	2. discard water

>	3. cook beans in crock pot till soft (all day)

>	4. cook chili mix and add cooked beans

>

>thanks

>ron 

>

>-- 

>

>

>

>Ron Steriti

>UMass Lowell

>Electrical Engineering Dept.

>1 University Ave

>Lowell, MA  01854

>

>steriti@cpe.dragon.uml.edu

>

>

-- 

  |---------------------------------------------------------------------|

  | FDA outlaw vitamins?  They can have my bean-sprouts when they pry   |

  | them from my cold, dead teeth! \/\/\/ Ron Schwarz ab621@leo.nmc.edu |

  |--------------------------------/\/\/\-------------------------------|









==========

Subject: Pesto freezing and pine nuts

From: n9040513@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Andrea Aldridge)

Date: 3 Oct 93 19:26:35 GMT

--------

In article <davidiCEBtr9.5xH@netcom.com> davidi@netcom.com (David Israel) writes:

>

>I read somewhere that pesto should be frozen without the pine nuts... that

>they should be added later.  I don't know why, just thought I'd pass it along.



An interesting thought, although I can't imagine what the problem would be. I

buy pine nuts in bulk and freeze them, and defrost what I want to use. I have

never had any trouble either with their flavour or their texture. I don't

believe they would affect frozen pesto in any way. (IMHO)









==========

Subject: Cold-weather tonic?

From: c_mcdon@pavo.concordia.ca (kate)

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1993 23:33:00 GMT

--------



I'm writing from the Great White North, and the weather's already

turned very chilly. I don't mind the cold, but I notice metabolic

changes right away: I seem to need more sleep and more food,

especially meat (which I hardly look at in the summer), for example.



The nuisance is that I seem to have less energy as the seasons

change. I'm thinking of trying a short-term ginseng run - having

heard that it's not a great idea for women to stay on it for more

than a week or two at a time - and am wondering if anyone here

might know of any other herbal tonics that might help.



I'm sure native Canadians and Siberians must've had some potions

to help keep up their energy and their spirits - and maybe make

them more resistant to diseases - in the cold months. Any clues?





Kate





Single-malt scotch is a good one, yes, but not something you want

to tipple before going to work...











==========

Subject: Re: Cold-weather tonic?

From: music@erich.triumf.ca (FRED W. BACH)

Date: 3 Oct 1993 17:09 PST

--------

In article <3OCT199318335146@pavo.concordia.ca>, c_mcdon@pavo.concordia.ca (kate) writes...

# 

#I'm writing from the Great White North, and the weather's already

#turned very chilly. I don't mind the cold, but I notice metabolic

#changes right away: I seem to need more sleep and more food,

#especially meat (which I hardly look at in the summer), for example.

# 

#The nuisance is that I seem to have less energy as the seasons

#change. I'm thinking of trying a short-term ginseng run - having

#heard that it's not a great idea for women to stay on it for more

#than a week or two at a time - and am wondering if anyone here

#might know of any other herbal tonics that might help.

# 

#I'm sure native Canadians and Siberians must've had some potions

#to help keep up their energy and their spirits - and maybe make

#them more resistant to diseases - in the cold months. Any clues?

# 

# 

#Kate

# 

# 

#Single-malt scotch is a good one, yes, but not something you want

#to tipple before going to work...

# 



  Well, if you believe those two comedians on TV (Bob & Doug Mackenzie)

 you'd think that it was back bacon and beer.   ;-)



   More seriously, though, what is now and then referred to on this topic

 of standing the cold is the situation of the natives at the other end of

 this landmass (the Americas).  The natives of Tierra del Fuego (someone

 will have to correct this spelling) live in 45-degree (F) weather with

 fierce winds for which the area is famous, and they don't wear very much

 in the way of clothing.  What their diet contains a lot of are strawberries

 and mushrooms.  These together contain a lot of C and B vitamins and sugars,

 as well as some other things that go along with the B's & C (some acids and

 bioflavinoids, I think).  I think the natives also eat a little fish.



   Up here to keep warm I make sure I have plenty of *natural* viatmin C

 from at least one *fresh* lemon per day.  I don't find the capsule or tablet

 vitamin C effective.  If you don't have a sensitive digestive system, then

 cayenne pepper finely ground might keep you warmer.  A herbalist from New York

 on the radio this morning recommended this, as well as a mixture, made by

 the Quest company again, of amino acids.  The cayenne pepper may work.

 It certainly does for me.  Also, that golden seal mixture I was talking

 about in another post (Quest formula 21) makes me warmer.  It has lots of

 kelp in it for iodine and trace minerals which keep the little heat-producing

 factories in the brown-fat cells (everybody has them) churning out heat.

 I think all cells have them, but the brown fat cells are the ones that really

 churn out the heat.



		******

  There was a good NOVA on PBS on these little heat factories (mitochondria)

 that we inherit solely from our MOTHERS (not our fathers).  Check it out.

 It turns out that the egg supplies MORE DNA than the sperm since these

 little fellows are not part of the nucleus of the cell.  And they supply

 heat and energy for us.  Therefore, a person's mother-ancestry is much more

 traceable than the father's. This NOVA was called the Search for Eve, I think.

                ******



   Keep your head warm.  In cold weather, most of the body's heat will be lost 

 through an uncovered head.



   Do not just sit around in the cold.  You might want to get dressed up 

 adequately and do some light physical work, enough to make you warmer

 without getting up such a sweat that you might get a chill if you were

 to just sit and cool off in the cold.  This works for me, but it will take

 longer than just a few days to take permanent effect.



  There was a CBC TV show I saw on the Inuit way up North who, as long as it

 is not too windy, wear lots of loose-fitting clothes.  When they are running

 behind the dogsled chasing the animal they are hunting, the clothing lets in

 cool air so that they do not get too hot and sweat too much.  Yet, when they

 stop moving, the clothing drapes around their bodies to keep out the cold

 air.  Nice trick.  The natural fur they wear around their hoods provides a

 similar effect for their faces.  Another nice trick.  When in Rome, it is

 said, do as the Romans do.  So when up North, do as the natives do, I guess.



  I grew up in Northern Alberta where we get Arctic air all winter long.  I

 grew up with -40 degrees common in the winter (yeah, and 95F in the summer).



 Fred W. Bach ,    Operations Group        |  Internet: music@erich.triumf.ca

 TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility)    |  Voice:  604-222-1047 loc 327/278

 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS            |  FAX:    604-222-1074

 University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA   V6T 2A3



 These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question.

 They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers.









==========

Subject: Re: Cold-weather tonic?

From: vrauls@crl.nmsu.edu (goddess)

Date: 3 Oct 93 21:42:28

--------

In article <3OCT199317093511@erich.triumf.ca> music@erich.triumf.ca (FRED W. BACH) writes:



[lots of interesting stuff deleted because I can't get my 'attribution

wedgies' to work automatically ( > > > ).]

  

>    A herbalist from New York

>    on the radio this morning recommended this, as well as a mixture, made by

>    the Quest company again, of amino acids.  The cayenne pepper may work.

>    It certainly does for me.  Also, that golden seal mixture I was talking

>    about in another post (Quest formula 21) makes me warmer.  It has lots of

>    kelp in it for iodine and trace minerals which keep the little heat-producing

>    factories in the brown-fat cells (everybody has them) churning out heat.

>    I think all cells have them, but the brown fat cells are the ones that really

>    churn out the heat.



Could you please send more information about Quest?  Can you mail

order from them?  If not could you send more detailed ingredients for

#21?  We're still pretty warm here in New Mexico, but I tend to get a

huge metabolism drop this time of year...It's almost as if I get cold

on cue -- no matter what the weather is.



[more cool stuff deleted]



Thanks,



Venus

--



                       goddess -- worship at will      

                     lose me now or fuck me forever

   -----------------------------------------------------------------











==========

Subject: Ginko nuts (Repost of a letter)

From: pvt54121@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (The Blue Dragon)

Date: 4 Oct 1993 16:13:44 GMT

--------

	This is a repost of a series of letters that I got on ginko nuts.



>From Alice Ramirez <ramirez@math.ucla,edu>



	I have found ginko nuts on the ground, (there is a female tree at UCLA)

broke open the outer part of it (not edible) and eaten the inner part raw and 

found it to be very similar in flavor and texture to pine nuts (pignolas).  I

have heard something about waiting a year after they fall, but I think that has

to with germination, rather than eating.  The important thing to remember is

that the inner, whitish part is edible, the outer part is definitely not.  As

long as the inner part is developed, it's ready.  I am not sure how the Chinese

process them to get rid of the crud (the fleshy outer part that looks to be

edible, is full of butyric acid, and in my mind, crud).

	I recall reading that it is recommended that they be cooked before eat-

ing.  Personally, I have eaten most of mine raw with no ill effect.  I bought a

small can of ginko nuts in a local supermarket once, at outrageous prices, that

had been processed some way and imported from either Japan or Taiwan.  I 

thought they were horrible.  Raw they were good.  I recall reading that in 

parts of Asia they are roasted and then served at weddings.  I think they would

be delicious dry-roasted in an oven.  Pignolas make an acceptable substitute. 

Ginko, like pine trees, are gymnosperms.

	If you have children, you might point out that dinosaurs ate these, 

too.  It is well known that the Ginko family has been around since before the

dinosaurs.  (Of course the dinosaurs ate the whole thing) I also get the impre-

ssion they should be eaten in extreme moderation.  I'm not sure why.  Cycad 

nuts, I believe, are best avoided altogether (I mention Cycads, because if you

have a ginko tree, you're probably in a climate for cycads.  I recall years 

back seeing a PBS special on some weird brain disease that (if I'm recalling 

the detail correctly) was occurring among older people on Guam.  Turned out it

was somehow related to the fact that they ground the nuts from a local cycad

species to make a food product.)  Ginkos are such a traditional food in Asia 

that this is clearly not a problem.  Also, they are lower in fat than most 

other nuts.

	You remove completely the putrid smell of the outer flesh.  You have to

get completely rid of it.  I suppose you could just dry the nutmeat.  If you

wait too long, it might sprout.  Roasting could dry it.  The outer flesh didn't

bother me because I have bad sinuses.  I am not sure how the Asians get rid of

it.



<<***If anyone else has something to contribute on the harvest and use of ginko

     nuts, please respond to this article or email me at pvt54121@uxa.cso.uiuc.

     edu***>>>



Thanks in advance.    











==========

Subject: Re: Ginko nuts (Repost of a letter)

From: simon@lsupoz.apana.org.au (Simon Rumble (Shermozle))

Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 13:07:57 GMT

--------



I always thought that it was the LEAF that was the interesting part

of the Gingko tree.  I get this from my smart-drugs research.  What

are the advantages of the nut?  The leaf is alleged to aid in circulation,

especially to the brain (a definate advantage).

-- 

//___/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

/|___          "What's the point of a revolution without general copulation?"/

/ ___| H E R M             simon@lsupoz.apana.org.au                         /

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////









==========

Subject: Alcoholic drinks (was Re: Echinacea not Echinacia)

From: music@erich.triumf.ca (FRED W. BACH)

Date: 4 Oct 1993 13:14 PST

--------

In article <4OCT199313343251@venus.tamu.edu>, j0m1742@venus.tamu.edu

 (MANHART, JAMES) writes...



# 

#Well, I wasn't scientific about it and did not run a control with the alcohol

#alone.  However, I do not remember that kind of numbness from drinking

#things like tequila (not immediately anyway) and I would guess that the

#alcohol content of tequila is as high or higher than the typical tincture.

#The numbness actually lasted for 15 to 20 minutes and I doubt that

#alcohol would have that kind of effect so it is most likely that 

#the numbness is caused by something extracted from the plant.

# 

#Jim Manhart, Dept. of Biology, Texas A&M University

#College Station, TX 77843-3258, (409) 845-3356, 

#email:  J-Manhart@TAMU.EDU (Internet) J0M1742@TAMVENUS (Bitnet)



   You are correct.



   Not all alcoholic drinks contain the same things.  All contain ethanol, 

 all contain water, and most contain some other carbohydrates like sugars.

 Impurities include some aldehydes which are what result when the ethanol

 is exposed to ultraviolet light.  These aldehydes can give a bad hangover.

 Some alcoholic drinks (the wines and the ciders) may contain natural fruit

 dyes which have various effects.  There was a recent news item about how

 the red coloring in some wine prevented such-and-such a disease, and there

 was another item about how the same or similar coloring caused migranes.

 So you win some and you lose some.  It all depends on the person.  So, a

 person has to be his own judge and not overdo these products.



  Some of the beneficial aspects may be minerals from the plants that the

 drink came from, or B-vitamin and other complexes from the fermenting

 processes such as in beer and stout.  Improper brewing (not likely in

 commercial processes, but possible if one brews his own) is thought to

 produce cancer-causing compounds.  I read of a study about 15 years ago

 that measured these compounds in a variety of beers around the world, but

 I cannot quite remember the name of the family of carcinogens.  If I

 remember correctly, North American beers were pretty low, but some ones

 from other parts of the world were not.  (Darn, I wish I could remember

 that compound....  Could Diane be correct?  ;-)   Am I going senile?... 

 No.. I remember it now...it is the nitrosamine family of carcinogens.  

 I think Diane scared me into remembering it.  I wouldn't want her to be

 correct about my losing it....  ;-) ;-) .  For those who want more details

 try looking up the nitrosamine stories in the media within the last 15

 years.  You will need a computer or a really good index to do the searching.

 Most of the nitrosamine story turned out to be a red herring, although

 some connection remains.  And, apparently its effects are cancelled by

 vitamin C in the stomach.  Diane, you bring out the best in me!....

 (Are we having fun yet?)



    I tried Scotch, Vodka, beer, stout, wine, cider, and Southern Comfort,

 of course in moderation, looking for effects.  I keep the results in my

 head and I tell them to my wife as well.  Here, however, I will make an

 exception.  For me, there is something in Southern Comfort that boosts my

 energy output much more than the rest.  I have noticed this more than once.

 What *do* they put in that stuff, anyway?   Whereas I cannot prove it, I

 think that the effect is real and not all in my head.  (Whatever works....)

 Of course,  I often go for weeks or months without consuming any alcoholic

 drinks at all. 



    All the alcoholic drinks designed to warm a person up on a cold day

 are meant to be taken HOT or at least warm.  Cold Scotch or cold Rum

 are not going to do it.  I have the Southern Comfort (1oz) in a large

 cup of coffee (coffee by itself doesn't do it either).  Good on a cold

 fall afternoon after working in the yard for a few hours (raking leaves,

 grass cutting and preparing plants for winter).  Say, it's almost time

 to do that again this year....



   Regards,



 Fred W. Bach ,    Operations Group        |  Internet: music@erich.triumf.ca

 TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility)    |  Voice:  604-222-1047 loc 327/278

 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS            |  FAX:    604-222-1074

 University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA   V6T 2A3



 These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question.

 They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers.









==========

Subject: Echinacea Numbing Effect

From: aphrk@Msu.oscs.montana.edu

Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1993 07:54:46

--------

Alright, I can't stand it!  



Echinacea contains some chemical constituents which are responsible

for the "numbing" effect....only I'm not near my books to be able to

give you the exact name.  



It is not the sensation of alcohol on one's tongue, but a real "buzzing"

from the constituents.  Some other plants contain these too... Spilanthes

(toothache herb) also is numbing.  



Can someone help out here with a name for these constituents?



Robyn Klein Herbalist AHG









==========

Subject: Pesto (again!)

From: c_mcdon@pavo.concordia.ca (kate)

Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1993 15:22:00 GMT

--------



In the Botanical Gardens here they have a lot of herbs growing,

including about six varieties of basil. One of the varieties is

dark purple, and grows really well - in fact, they use it as a

decorative element in some of the geometrically-laid-out flower

gardens up front.



I nibbled on it, and it's perfectly yummy stuff. Has anybody ever

made dark-purple pesto, though? Sounds like a fine way to freak

out one's dinner guests.





Kate











==========

Subject: Fred and Diane (was Re: TriChromalene(sp?)

From: mcruic@pshrink.chi.il.us (Mary Cruickshank)

Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1993 19:16:05 GMT

--------

Diane writes:

>Anyone who has survived grad school is not a kid.



Amen.



Fred writes:

>You are a kid.  Furthermore you are too arrogant.



Age does not necessarily confer wisdom, nor does possession of youth

necessiarly deny wisdom.

So, as my daughter would say, "Take a chill pill."



Mary

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Mary Cruickshank  -- Dragon Lady

mcruic@pshrink.chi.il.us

"If you show up to the football game dressed as a Hobo, you will be

escorted from the premises"--Curt Thompkins, Pres. MTU

"Who's football game is this, anyway?"--Greeks of MTU

Go Boycott!

----------------------------------------------------------------------











==========

Subject: Re: Fred and Diane (was Re: TriChromalene(sp?)

From: dstothar@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Diane Stothard)

Date: 8 Oct 1993 01:26:35 GMT

--------

TeeHee!

Thanks, Mary! Fred's hysterical rantings are certainly not worth the time!



Diane









==========

Subject: Nancy's right! (was Re: TriChromalene(sp?))

From: music@erich.triumf.ca (FRED W. BACH)

Date: 5 Oct 1993 12:26 PST

--------

In article <npmCEFq90.1KE@netcom.com>, 

npm@netcom.com (npm@netcom.com) writes...



   [stuff delteted]



#Fred, you're the guy that's posting to the news group "alt.support.diet".

#If you don't want to tangle with us here, then try editing your followup

#line.  Or hasn't that "truth" been revealed to you yet?  

#-- 

#npm@netcom.com					

#Nancy from San Diego, California



  Right you are!  I have changed the post line when I'm paying attention to 

 the header (most of the time I concentrate on the text of the articles), but

 I have failed to edit the *followup* line.



  So, some of the replies come back with both newsgroups.  (They might have

 been from earlier posts on the same thread).  This newsgroup proliferation

 has a way of maintaining itself.  I will watch this more closely in the 

 future.   I am leaving alt.support.diet on this one (the post line, not the

 followup line) so you folks there will read this particular post,  but I will

 delete it from further posts on this subject.  This not_checking of the

 newsgroup lines is a common fault that I have found in other newsgroups and

 I am ashamed to say that it has now happened to me in the "heat" of the

 discussion.  Sorry.



  I suppose you can be a source of truth <insert warm friendly smile here>.



  Thanks for reminding me.  



 Fred W. Bach ,    Operations Group        |  Internet: music@erich.triumf.ca

 TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility)    |  Voice:  604-222-1047 loc 327/278

 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS            |  FAX:    604-222-1074

 University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA   V6T 2A3



 These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question.

 They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers.









==========

Subject: Re: Herb plant sources ?

From: waddell@firnvx.firn.edu

Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 14:38:16 GMT

--------

In article <cntrspyCEGE8w.CH4@netcom.com>, cntrspy@netcom.com 

   (Executive Protection Assoc) writes:

> 

> Forgive me if this is a FAQ, but does anyone have sources for medicinal

> herb plant nurserys, list of seed companies that sell seeds or plant

> stocks for goldenseal and echinacia (sp?).  I'm particularly interested

> in suppliers on the West Coast, but any that will ship plants into CA, 

> OR, or NV.

> 

> Also if this is a FAQ, where do I find it ??

> 



I am also interested, but mainly for suppliers from the southeast USA. 



-- 



Have fun!



   =-Kathy->                                   waddell@firnvx.firn.edu









==========

Subject: Re: Herb plant sources ?

From: j0m1742@venus.tamu.edu (MANHART, JAMES)

Date: 6 Oct 1993 13:08 CDT

--------

In article <1993Oct6.093816.1@firnvx.firn.edu>, waddell@firnvx.firn.edu writes...

>In article <cntrspyCEGE8w.CH4@netcom.com>, cntrspy@netcom.com 

>   (Executive Protection Assoc) writes:

>> 

>> Forgive me if this is a FAQ, but does anyone have sources for medicinal

>> herb plant nurserys, list of seed companies that sell seeds or plant

>> stocks for goldenseal and echinacia (sp?).  I'm particularly interested

>> in suppliers on the West Coast, but any that will ship plants into CA, 

>> OR, or NV.

>> 

>> Also if this is a FAQ, where do I find it ??

>> 

> 

>I am also interested, but mainly for suppliers from the southeast USA. 

> 

>-- 

> 

>Have fun!

> 

>   =-Kathy->                                   waddell@firnvx.firn.edu



I recently bought Echinacea seeds at one of our garden supply stores,

it was one of the major seed suppliers but I do not remember which one.

If you are interested in plants from the Southeast, you might try

Park seeds, they are in South Carolina and do sell some wildflowers.

I have not seen one of their catalogs recently but they were beginning

to offer more herbs and wildflowers several years ago.  Goldenseal

might be harder to find.  There is a small wildflower nursery near 

Aiken, SC that sells a lot of rare and unique plants.  I do not 

remember its name or exact location, maybe someone else on the net

is familiar with it.











Jim Manhart, Dept. of Biology, Texas A&M University

College Station, TX 77843-3258, (409) 845-3356, 

email:  J-Manhart@TAMU.EDU (Internet) J0M1742@TAMVENUS (Bitnet)









==========

Subject: Anyone know of a Maderia vine?

From: ritchiek@sage.cc.purdue.edu (unknown)

Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 14:56:20 GMT

--------

	Has anyone out there in net land heard of a maderia

vine?  I am looking for a start or several starts of this vine

it grows from a bulb or rhizome type structure has somewhat heart

shaped leaves and is not winter hardy.  This is my grandmother's 

description of the plant.  Kay klier from the garden net said she

thinks the latin name of the plant is anredera or something like that

I am not sure if it is the same thing or not, but I do need a start of 

the vine that used to be called maderia or mederia.  My great grandmother

was pennsylvania-dutch and used this vine in a salve/poultice.

If anyone can help please post to the net or my email address

ritchiek@sage.cc.purdue.edu or karen@pm.addl.purdue.edu.

Thanks in advance-Karen Ritchie











==========

Subject: Re: Anyone know of a Maderia vine?

From: Baird Stafford <bstafford@bstafford.ess.harris.com>

Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 20:52:36 GMT

--------

> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.herbs

> Path:

jabba.ess.harris.com!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!news.cs.ind

>

iana.edu!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!sage.cc.purdue.edu!ritchiek

> From: ritchiek@sage.cc.purdue.edu (unknown)

> Subject: Anyone know of a Maderia vine?

> Message-ID: <CEHDHx.Bu5@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>

> Sender: news@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (USENET News)

> Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

> Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 14:56:20 GMT

> Lines: 13

> 

> 	Has anyone out there in net land heard of a maderia

> vine?  I am looking for a start or several starts of this vine

> it grows from a bulb or rhizome type structure has somewhat heart

> shaped leaves and is not winter hardy.  This is my grandmother's 

> description of the plant.  Kay klier from the garden net said she

> thinks the latin name of the plant is anredera or something like that

> I am not sure if it is the same thing or not, but I do need a start of 

> the vine that used to be called maderia or mederia.  My great grandmother

> was pennsylvania-dutch and used this vine in a salve/poultice.

> If anyone can help please post to the net or my email address

> ritchiek@sage.cc.purdue.edu or karen@pm.addl.purdue.edu.

> Thanks in advance-Karen Ritchie

> 



The closest I can come is a Madiera-vine, _Boussingaultia_baselloides_.  Since

it grows in USDA Zone 9 (peninsular Florida, along the Gulf Coast and through

most of California), I doubt very much whether Pennsylvanians would have known

of it -- although the description as "not winter hardy" would certainly seem

to apply.  If your plant produces racemes of white flowers about 1 foot long

in late summer, this may be it, though.  I could find nothing about an

"anredera."



If you find the plant and the recipe for the salve/poultice, please post.  It

sounds interesting!



--Baird

__

Baird Stafford  (bstafford@bstafford.ess.harris.com)









==========

Subject: FAQ, please...

From: milar@seq.uncwil.edu (milar andrea m)

Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 17:33:16 GMT

--------

I'm new to this group and was wondering if I could get a FAQ...



Thanks! 



Andrea













==========

Subject: Re: FAQ, please...

From: elohkamp@slate.mines.colorado.edu (Lohkamp)

Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1993 21:29:22 GMT

--------

milar andrea m (milar@seq.uncwil.edu) wrote:

: I'm new to this group and was wondering if I could get a FAQ...



: Thanks! 



: Andrea



I am also new to this group and would like to know the same thing.

As I am also new to the net, ant advice  would be helpfull.



Thanks.



elohkamp@slate.mines.colorado.edu









==========

Subject: Re: FAQ, please...

From: ayermish@leland.Stanford.EDU (Aimee Yermish)

Date: Sun, 10 Oct 93 01:15:23 GMT

--------

There is currently no FAQ for this newsgroup.  No one has offered to

write it.



--Aimee







-- 

Aimee Yermish			Society for Interactive Literature West

ayermish@leland.stanford.edu	415-329-1984 (before 11pm Pacific time)

Coming Thanksgiving weekend to Silicon, San Jose, CA -- *Stopover*

Interstellar intrigue, pirates, bar fights, lots of aliens -- ask me about it!









==========

Subject: Re: Pesto and preserving herbs

From: leah@smith.CHI.IL.US (L.A.Z. Smith)

Date: 6 Oct 93 18:21:45 GMT

--------

In article <1993Oct4.124908.29717@cscs.ch> nvecchi@cscs.ch 

(Nicole Vecchi) writes:

>I make my year's supply of pesto in August. I was told by several

>local women told me that August basil is more flavorful--I have no

>idea why, but this wisdom seems to have been passed down and I'm

>not one to argue. :-) August in my geographic region is the turning 

>month from summer to fall.



Most herbs are supposed to be most flavorful just before they flower --

i.e., just as the flower stalks begin to lengthen.  Also, the plants tend

to peter out after they've formed seeds.



Basil tends to bloom in July and August, depending on variety and climate.

However, I keep my plants well pinched back, cutting off the flower heads

as they form, and use the herbs fresh all summer, so it's just when 

frost threatens that I harvest in quantity.





>I make the pesto only with the basil and garlic. Fill several

>small glass containers (baby food jar size) 3/4 full, then

>top with a generous amount (1/2 inch) of olive oil. Place in

>refrigerator and it keeps till it's gone. Haven't had any gone

>bad on me yet. Then when we're ready to serve, spoon out the

>desired amount and mix in the parmesean and chopped pine nuts.



I find that mold grows after a month or so in the fridge, 

but maybe that's a function of the cheese.  Next year, I may try the

chopped basil in oil method, although it seems less convenient to use than

the pre-mixed pesto.



Leah Smith		leah@smith.chi.il.us









==========

Subject: MAKE.MONEY.FAST

From: hansndav@strauss.udel.edu (Peter Mich Harrison)

Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 22:09:24 GMT

--------

Distribution: WORLD

Message-ID: <WHITECR%CS37.41@cadetmail.usafa.af.mil>

NNTP-Posting-Host: cs37-37.usafa.af.mil



=====================================================================

THE FOLLOWING ONLY SHOW YOU HOW TO MAKE-MONEY-FAST, IF YOU ARE NOT

INTERESTED IN THIS SUBJECT, PLEASE IGNORE AND DO NOT READ IT. THANKS.

=====================================================================

HELLO!

	Alright everybody, let's get on this!  Let me offer a quick intro 

real quick...The opportuinity is there, keep reading.  Put your name at the 

number 10 position and try this.  It is a mere 5 dollar investment to 

satisfy that curiosity in your mind...Is Making Money possible this way.  

WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO LOSE!  SEND THIS POST WITH YOUR NAME AT #10 TO EVERYONE 

THAT YOU CAN THINK OF.  I'll be willing to bet you get much more than your 

investment back!  Plus it will only take you an hour to do.  Get Motivated!

					Yours in Wealth,

					Christian White

=====================================================================

Dear Friend,

     My name is Dave Rhodes.  In September 1988 my car was

reposessed and the bill collectors were hounding me like

you wouldn't believe.  I was laid off and my unemployment

checks had run out.  The only escape I had from the

pressure of failure was my computer and my modem.  I

longed to turn my advocation into my vocation.

     This January 1989 my family and I went on a ten day

cruise to the tropics.  I bought a Lincoln Town Car for

CASH in Feburary 1989.

  I am currently building a home on

the West Coast of Florida, with a private pool, boat slip,

and a beautiful view of the bay from my breakfast room

table and patio.  I will never have to work again. Today I

am rich!  I have earned over $400,000.00 (Four Hundred

Thousand Dollars) to date and will become a millionaire

within 4 or 5 months.  Anyone can do the same.  This money

making program works perfectly every time, 100% of the

time.  I have NEVER failed to earn $50,000.00 or more

whenever I wanted.  Best of all you never have to leave

home except to go to your mailbox or post office.

     In October 1988, I received a letter in the mail

telling me how I could earn $50,000 dollars or more

whenever I wanted.  I was naturally very skeptical and

threw the letter on the desk next to my computer.  It's

funny though, when you are desperate, backed into a

corner, your mind does crazy things.  I spent a frustating

day looking through the want ads for a job with a future.

The pickings were sparse at best.  That night I tried to

unwind by booting up my computer and calling several

bulletin boards.  I read several of the message posts and

than glanced at the letter next to the computer.  All at

once it came to me, I now had the key to my dreams.

      I realized that with the power of the computer I

could expand and enhance this money making formula into

the most unbelievable cash flow generator that has ever

been created.  I substituted the computer bulletin boards

in place of the post office and electronically did by

computer what others were doing 100% by mail.  Now only a

few letters are mailed manually.  Most of the hard work is

speedily downloaded to other bulletin boards throughout

the world.  If you believe that someday you deserve that

lucky break that you have waited for all your life, simply

follow the easy instructions below.  Your dreams will come

true.

     Sincerely yours,

     Dave Rhodes

         INSTRUCTIONS

Follow these instructions EXACTLY, and in 20 to 60 days

you will have received well over $50,000.00 cash, all

yours.  This program has remained successful because of

the honesty and integrety of the participants.  Please

continue its success by carefully adhering to the

instructions.

Welcome to the world of Mail Order!  This little business

is a little different than most mail order houses.  Your

product is not solid and tangible, but rather a service.

You are in the business of developing Mailing lists.  Many

large corporations are happy to pay big bucks for quality

lists.

(The money made from the mailing lists are secondary to

the income which is made from people like yourself

requesting that they be included in that list.)

  1)  Immediately mail $1.00 to the first 5 (five) names

listed below starting at number 1 through number 5.  Send

cash only please (total investment $5.00). Enclose a note

with each letter stating: "Please add my name to your

mailing list."

  (This is a legitimate service that you are requesting

and you are paying $1.00 for this service).

  2)  Remove the name that appears number 1 on the list.

Move the other 9 names up one position. (Number 2 will

become number 1 and number 3 will become number 2, etc.)

Place your name, address and zip code in the number 10

position.

  3)  Post the new letter with your name in the number 10

position into 10 (Ten) separate bulletin boards in the

message base or to the file section, call the file,

MAKE.MONEY.FAST.

  4)  Within 60 days you will receive over $50,000.00 in

CASH.  Keep a copy of this file for yourself so that you

can use it again and again whenever you need money. As

soon as you mail out these letters you are automatically

in the mail order business and people are sending you

$1.00 to be placed on your mailing list. This list can

than be rented to a list broker that can be found in the

Yellow Pages for additional income on a regular basis.

The list will become more valuable as it grows in size.

This is a service.  This is perfectly legal. If you have

any doubts, refer to Title 18, Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the

postal lottery laws.

       NOTE: Make sure you retain EVERY Name and Address

sent to you, either on computer or hard copy, but do not

discard the names and notes they send you.  This is PROOF

that you are truely providing a service and should the IRS

or some other Government Agency question you, you can

provide them with this proof!

   Remember as each post is downloaded and the

instructions carefully followed, five members will be

reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer

with one dollar each.  Your name will move up the list

geometrically so that when your name reaches the number

five position you will be receiving thousands of dollars

in cash.



   1. Von Merritt

     114 South Oxford Street, #3R

     Brooklyn, NY  11217



   2. Paul Marks

     184 Hope St.

     Stamford, CT 06906



   3. Kevin Quinn

     4201 Massachusetts Ave, NW, Apt 8091W

     Washington, DC  20016



  4. Hongkuan Li

     1925 Eastchester Road, Apt. 1A

     Bronx, NY 10461



  5. Mary Hu

     1912 S. 5th #413

     Waco, TX 76706



  6. Elisha Landman

     MB 1087 Brandeis Univ.

     Waltham, MA 02254-9110

  

  7. Dmitri Linde

     744 Mayfield Avenue

     Stanford, CA 94305

  

  8. Claude Suddreth

     131 West Jackson South

     Sapulpa, OK 74066

 

   9.Christian White

      PO Box 1987

      USAF Academy, CO 80841-1987



    10. Peter Harrison

          1209 CWT

          Newark, DE 19717-7814

============================================================

The following letters were written by participating

members in this program.

To Whom It May Concern:

     About six months ago I received the enclosed post in

letter form.  I ignored it.  I received about five more of

the same letter within the next two weeks.  I ignored them

also.  Of course, I was tempted to follow through and

dreamed of making thousands, but I was convinced it was

just another gimmick and could not possibly work.  I was

wrong!  About three weeks later I saw this same letter

posted on a local bulletin board in Montreal.  I liked the

idea of giving it a try with my computer.  I didn't expect

much because I figured, if other people were as skeptical

as I, they wouldn't be too quick to part with Five

Dollars.  But, I buy lottery tickets weekly in my province

and have nothing to show for it but ticket stubs.  This

week I decided to look at this as my weekly lottery

purchase. I addressed the envelopes and mailed out one

dollar in each as directed.  Two weeks went by and I

didn't recieve anything in the mail.  The fourth week

rolled around and I couldn't believe what happened!  I

can't say I received $50,000, but it was definitely well

over $35,000!  For the first time in ten years, I got out

of debt.   It was great.  Of course, it didn't take me

long to go through my earnings so I am using this

excellent money opportunity once again.  Follow the

instructions and get ready to enjoy.

     Please send a copy of this letter along with the

enclosed letter so together we can convince people who are

skeptical that it really works!

        Good Luck,

        Charles Kust

        St Agathe Que.

Another letter:

  I tried a similar program in which the cost was $5.00

per response.  In that one the return was about 3%.  Since

I did not have a modem I sent out letters regular mail.  I

created a few mailing labels and printed out all of the

labels on pressure sensitive tape.  The first mailing that

I used the $1.00 dollar per reponse approach I started to

get return mail in just over one week!  I sent out 200

letters instead of 100 that is required if you use the

mail instead of the bulletion boards.  Additionally, I

included as many friends, relatives, classmates, that I

could think of in order to encourage their participation

if they happened to recognize my name, so my percentage of

gain was higher.  I am trying again with 500 letters to

see if I surpass the $141,000 of the last time. You just

won't believe it until you try.

        Best Wishes,

        Mark Garner

        Dallas Texas

Additional Notes:

     This system works equally well if mailed out

manually.  Mind you it takes more effort to hand address

the envelopes and the cost goes up proportionately to

cover the postage and envelopes. You must also photo copy

the instructions, cross out the name in number one

position, write in your name in the number ten slot and

change the rest of the numbers accordingly. (It might be

neater to use white out or paste over the names.) In order

to achieve the same results you must send out the $1.00

dollar to the first five names and then send out another

100 letters with copies of the program enclosed.  It has

been suggested not to put a return address on the outside

of the envelope in order to encourage the recipient to

open it.  The return will approximate that then received

from the posts listed on the bulletin boards.

     Hello, my name is Steve Prester.  As you may have

noticed I'm the tenth name on this list, so I do not have

a rags-to-riches story to tell here.  However, I did make

a phone call to the 2nd name on this list, Ernest Goyette.

Did he have a rags to riches story to tell? Not exactly,

but then I found out that he did not follow the

instructions precisely.  You see, Ernest lost faith in

the program before he had finished following instructions.

He only uploaded this file on one BBS, which happens to be

operated by Darryl McGinnis, the 3rd name on this list.

Ernest told me that he has received $92.00 to date

(1/6/90).  I realize this is far from the $50,000.00

promised at the first of this file, yet one must keep

two things in mind:

 1. $92.00 is almost 10 times his initial investment, and

    it only took about an hour of his time (there's

    nothing to lose).

 2. This program works mathematically on an exponential

    scale.  In other words, for every one BBS that this

file is uploaded onto, it should spread to at least ten

other BBSs and possibly a whole lot more. So, if Ernest

had uploaded his file on all ten BBSs, he should have at

least gotten a hundred-fold of what he has, which would

be $9200.00.  Not bad for a few hours work and a $6.25

investment (including postage).

Finally, I would like to exhort those who become involved

in this program to maintain its integrity by being honest.

It is the only way that it can possibly pay off.  In other

words, be sure to enter your name at the bottom of the

list and not in one of the top five positions (actually

this would be robbing yourself since it is while your name

is in the lower positions that it gets multiplied

exponentially over hundreds of BBSs).  And, of course,

send your $1.00 off to the first five names.  As I write

this I have not made a penny (that's because I have not

uploaded this yet), but I thought you might like to hear

from someone at the bottom of the list, instead of someone

claiming rags-to-riches.  I hope such is true, and I'm

sure it will be if we all stick with it.  The potential is

definitely here!

   P.S. Call me if you get rich.

Hello

    I am the current #10 on the list, I too am sceptical.  Well what do

we

all have to lose. It is worth a try in order to realize some substantial

gain.  Don't any of you out there want to upgrade your PC's. I certainly

do, but can't afford to.  I hope that this program will make enough cash

in order to buy a super system.

                                     Nua Nicaj

--------------

Hey There! Glad your thinking about this seriously because I am! If all

these people are making money then why not be included with them and get

some also? Im going to be #10 on this list, and Im uploading it

everywhere! If you have the access :) then follow through, upload it,

and

see what happens! Hey, Imagine earning enough to buy a 486? or one of

those high speed modems that cost hundreds of dollars? What about buying

your OWN BBS ? Who wouldnt want to be the Sys-Op of their VERY OWN

board?

I know I wouldnt mind :) What do you have to lose but 5 bucks compared

to

the hundreds and thousands you CAN make? I know Im down.. Will you be

the

very next to EARN some cash?

                                                             Talib Khan

----------

My name's David Parcel. I am the new number 10 on this list.  I tried a

program like this in the mail over a year ago, and never made a dime!

please note however, that I DID NOT follow the instructions precisely

and

I cut corners because I really didn't have the money to send out the

large

mailing.  Now that I can try it via BBS, I will follow the instructions

exactly.  I have received dozens of mailings for programs like this.  So

I

guess people really are making money at this..  Well, it's my turn.  If

you're reading this and you're skeptical, just ask yourself: WHAT HAVE

YOU

GOT TO LOSE?  (if you're anything like me, you haven't got much).  GO

FOR

IT!

-----------

TAKE YOUR FUTURE IN YOUR OWN HANDS!  SMILE AS YOU TAKE YOUR PLACE WITH THOSE 

WHO HAVE BECOME WEALTHY WITH THIS WELL DEVISED MAIL ORDER OPPORTUNITY.

DON'T WAIT...WHAT DO YOU OR I HAVE TO BE SKEPTICAL ABOUT?  IT'S ONLY $5.

						Christian White

						Business Management, USAFA

------------













==========

Subject: Re: MAKE.MONEY.FAST

From: thester@nyx.cs.du.edu (Uncle Fester)

Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 01:21:08 GMT

--------



     It is my opinion that people who post this sort of 

     crap should forever be banned from any sort of computer 

     communications net.



     Uncle Fester



--

           :              "I'm as blank as a fart."                :

           :                  -The Great Wendt-                    :

           :                                                       :

           :               *thester@nyx.cs.du.edu*                 :









==========

Subject: Re: MAKE.MONEY.FAST

From: behlert@nyx.cs.du.edu (Brian Ehlert)

Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 11:25:10 GMT

--------

In article <1993Oct7.012108.28540@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> thester@nyx.UUCP (Uncle Fester) writes:

>

>     It is my opinion that people who post this sort of 

>     crap should forever be banned from any sort of computer 

>     communications net.

>

>     Uncle Fester

>

>--

>           :              "I'm as blank as a fart."                :

>           :                  -The Great Wendt-                    :

>           :                                                       :

>           :               *thester@nyx.cs.du.edu*                 :





So, reply it back to them and be sure to copy it so it overloads the

system and they may loose their accounts.  If not and they do it again,

then they are stupid.  No cure for that.



BrianE 









==========

Subject: Re: MAKE.MONEY.FAST

From: olso0275@gold.tc.umn.edu (Jacquelyn A Olson-1)

Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 11:57:21 GMT

--------

Wow...A chain letter on the net. One of the oldest scams in the book is

back with a whole new medium to rape.

Spooky.











==========

Subject: Fred makes a blunder, have a good laugh. (was Re: TriChromalene(sp?))

From: music@erich.triumf.ca (FRED W. BACH)

Date: 6 Oct 1993 20:00 PST

--------

In article <CEFyzB.Fzs@spdcc.com>, dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes...

#In article <rudyCEFsGM.98q@netcom.com> rudy@netcom.com (Rudy Wade) writes:

#>In article <4OCT199318470406@erich.triumf.ca> music@erich.triumf.ca (FRED W. BACH) writes:

#>>#Steve Dyer

#>>#dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer

#>>                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

#>>    Harvard raised, eh?  To quote a phrase, "Why does this not surprise me?"

#>> Some might say that Harvard types are really stuck up.  Some might say that

#>> Harvard types have their heads up where they don't belong.   Would I say that?

#>> Nah....

#>

#>Hahahahaha.  Why doesn't it surprise me that this computer "professional"

#>doesn't know about uucp addressing...

# 

#The dumbest of the dumb will see that in my .sig and make some

#feeble comment about Harvard "eggheads".  Believe it or not,

#"FRED" isn't the first, and with the inevitable dumbification of the

#net as more yahoos get access, he won't be the last.  Nonetheless,

#it still boggles the mind...

# 

#-- 

#Steve Dyer

#dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer



   Fair enough.  May you have a good chuckle.  No wonder I'm not the first.  

 And my specialty is NOT programming and I never said it was.  I just said 

 that I have to do some (in the DEC VAX/VMS realm), and I inferred that, all

 other things being equal, short programs run faster than long programs.  I

 am actually an Operations Co-ordinator and Shift Supervisor here.  I know

 very little about uunet addressing, but I suppose I could learn if I

 have to.  The "smart mailers" we have here are supposed to take care of

 all the mail-addessing protocols for the users.



   So then, why *is* this in your sig, arranged the way that it is?  Bait?

 Perhaps you owe at least the rest of the group a decent explanation, since

 I am certain (and, from your comments, you are too) that not everyone grasps

 the exact significance of your sig.  Why not tell us?



  Now, as for Harvard folks, well I think I can tell a little story about a 

 certain faculty:  Was there not at least ONE faculty that was so stuck up

 that in their lectures and discussions they would never mention out loud

 some researcher from another university?  I think I can dig this up if I

 have to and give you a quote from the literature.  (Sheesh, I hope I've got

 the right school....  If not, I will apologize in advance.)



  [ I removed the diet-support group from the Newsgroups line, but the

 "followup" line is not appearing in the header this time so I can't edit it.]



 Fred W. Bach ,    Operations Group        |  Internet: music@erich.triumf.ca

 TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility)    |  Voice:  604-222-1047 loc 327/278

 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS            |  FAX:    604-222-1074

 University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA   V6T 2A3



 These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question.

 They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers.









==========

Subject: A Different Way to Approach Reorganizing REC.FOOD.VEG

From: taylor@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Dave Taylor)

Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 16:00:26 GMT

--------

It struck me that we can't really talk about how we'd like to 

reorganize the mess that rec.food.veg has become without trying

to better analyse how it's currently being used.  So to get a better 

understanding of rec.food.veg, I grabbed the subject lines of

the last 180 articles or so to arrive here at Purdue and tried to 

categorize them:



The specifics are attached, but a summary:



	FAQ and Adminstrative Issues		41 articles (*)

	Cooking Equipment			15 articles

	Cooking Ingredients & Usage		21 articles

	Travel Issues				 5 articles

	Political and Philosophical Issues	50 articles

	Supplements & Vitamins			 8 articles

	(Other, not categorized)		21 articles



		(*) includes discussion of reorganization



I then swooped into the historically quiet group "alt.folklore.herbs"

and found that they were averaging about 10 articles / week on the

topic (and usually a lot less).  My goal was to try to identify two

or three major cateogories we could use...



Therefore, I propose the following three areas:



	Vegetarian Cooking, Recipies & Tools

		cooking equipment		15 articles

		cooking ingredients and usage	21 articles



	Supplements, Vitamins, Herbs & Homeopathic Remedies

		supplements and vitamins	 8 articles

		alt.folklore.herb		10 articles

		  and new stuff too! :-)



	Vegetarian Philosophies and Politics

		Political and Philosphical...	50 articles



This means that we've got an approximately even break by topic,

and have even possibly offered the herbalist group a chance to

cross-polinate (ahem!) with related topics on homeopathy, vitamins,

and similar... Discussion of travel issues could easily move

into rec.food.restaurants without much problem, too.



All that's left are newsgroup names:



   rec.food.cooking.veg	 -  Vegetarian Cooking, Recipies & Tools

   sci.med.nutrition.alt -  Supplements, Vitamins, Herbs & Homeopathy

   talk.politics.veg 	 -  Vegetarian Philosophies and Politics



So what do you all think?  We'd all need to migrate away from this

group into the new groups as discussions were appropriate, and we'd

have to self-police to ensure that as discussions changed they'd

remain in the most appropriate of the groups...



			Hoping to help tame the wild newsgroup,



						-- Dave Taylor



taylor@mentor.cc.purdue.edu		in the Dept. of Education



-- Attachment: data for my analysis.  Numbers in square brackets indicate

   the number of articles with the same subject...



FAQ and other administrative issues:

    [7] FAQ         

	FTP site needs a new home     

	and about twenty-five articles on reorganizing rec.food.veg! :-)

	Granola listserve         



Cooking Equipment:

    [3]	Breadmakers: any good ?      

	canning/preserving          

    [3]	Juicers Survey        

    [6]	RICE COOKERS        

    [2]	Rice Steamers ???       



Cooking Ingredients and how to use them:

    [3] Brown Rice in my cooker     

    [2] Catalog of Hidden Animal Products

    [4]	fishy broth idea       

    [2]	Need veggie lasagna help      

	Ginko nuts (Repost of a letter)     

	LIST OF SUBSTANCES DERIVED FROM ANIMALS     

	A Surfeit of Black Beans     

    [2]	rice milk        

	Sea salt vs table salt

	Vegan Pizza recipe??        

    [3]	Vegelicious Beverage -- What is it?    



Finding Restaurants / Travel:

    [5] How can we find veg food in an unknown town?



Philosphical & Political Issues:

	Censorship - Was rodeo       

	Exploiting (was breastfeeding)        

    [3]	Hunting season around the Moosehead lake, etc   

	Letter from the former President of the Guernsey Cattle Society 

    [2] Plant Pain

    [9] "A MODEL for Risk Reduction"     

	Abortion and Animal Rights (Was: Here's a weird question...) 

    [2] Abstract: "Meat, Cars, (and Feminism)"     

    [8] Breastfeeding in Vegans       

  [15+] FIGHT THE RODEO - SF BAY    

    [2]	Psych. & Socio. Facts about Vegetarians (not really)  

    [2]	VEGAN: The Rituals of a Dinner Party    

	Wheat & bean harvest not cruelty-free    



Supplements:

	micrograms (was b-12)        

	Disadvantages with taking multi-vitamins?      

    [5]	One Doctor's Experience with B-12     

	UN: B-12 deficiency       



Other:

    [5] Ant problem - help!       

	Info request:vegetarians-diabetes         

	Orlando/Disney Yacht Club        

    [3] Feeding a cat or dog     

    [2]	Help for Canker Sores?      

    [9]	Vegetarians in history?       



alt.folklore.herbs:

    [2] Pesto freezing and pine nuts

	Anyone know of a Maderia vine?

	(note: we expire FAST here, so this is only a few days of articles)



-- ends









==========

Subject: Re: A Different Way to Approach Reorganizing REC.FOOD.VEG

From: young@serum.kodak.com (Rich Young)

Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1993 13:23:46 GMT

--------

In article <CEJB4r.JM1@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> taylor@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Dave Taylor) writes:



[...]



>All that's left are newsgroup names:

>

>   rec.food.cooking.veg	 -  Vegetarian Cooking, Recipies & Tools

>   sci.med.nutrition.alt -  Supplements, Vitamins, Herbs & Homeopathy

>   talk.politics.veg 	 -  Vegetarian Philosophies and Politics

>

>So what do you all think?  We'd all need to migrate away from this

>group into the new groups as discussions were appropriate, and we'd

>have to self-police to ensure that as discussions changed they'd

>remain in the most appropriate of the groups...



[...]



	There is already a group called talk.politics.animals which was

	apparently split off to remove the philosophical and political

	discussions from r.f.v.  The problem, as many have noted, is that

	there are those who wish to discuss these issues, but who do not

	have access to the "talk" groups, and that many times there are

	cross-postings from other groups which do not remain in the realm

	of vegetarianism very long, yet continue to be cross-posted because

	people don't check their "Newsgroups:" line before following-up.



	A moderated forum would censor postings the moderator found objection-

	able, but is that what the readers of r.f.v. really want...a constant

	round of intellectual backslapping where the same information is

	propagated in an endless string of re-posted articles, pre-digested

	by someone else?  I doubt it.





-Rich Young



(The views expressed herein do not reflect those of Eastman Kodak Company Inc.)









==========

Subject: Re: A Different Way to Approach Reorganizing REC.FOOD.VEG

From: taltar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Altar)

Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1993 20:35:23 GMT

--------

young@serum.kodak.com (Rich Young) writes:



>	A moderated forum would censor postings the moderator found objection-

>	able, but is that what the readers of r.f.v. really want...a constant

>	round of intellectual backslapping where the same information is

>	propagated in an endless string of re-posted articles, pre-digested

>	by someone else?  I doubt it.



 

For someone who is not kindly disposed towards vegetarianism and

who has repeatedly initiated personal attacks and insults towards

many of the vegetarian contributors on rec.food.veg., it is maybe

quite telling that such a person would oppose the presence of a

even-handed moderator.

 

In any case, the above remark shows a despotic lack of

consideration for the many new readers that appear on

rec.food.veg every month.  There is nothing wrong with saving

some of the better information postings so that new people can

also benefit.  Old readers need not be bothered by repeat

messages because there is the convention of adding the header

[REPOST].

 

Just because one has already read something, that does not

preclude its relevance or utility for others.  It certainly

doesn't speak against the facts or evidence that have previously

been presented regarding the advantages and considerations of the

vegetarian option.  Facts and evidence do not become irrelevant

just because one wishes them to be so, facts and evidence do NOT 

become dated just because one hopes them to be so.

 

                              Regards,

                                   Ted











==========

Subject: Re: A Different Way to Approach Reorganizing REC.FOOD.VEG

From: smiale@cs.indiana.edu (Steven Miale)

Date: 10 Oct 93 23:07:42 GMT

--------

In article <taltar.750285323@sfu.ca>, Ted Altar <taltar@beaufort.sfu.ca> wrote:

>young@serum.kodak.com (Rich Young) writes:

>

>>	A moderated forum would censor postings the moderator found objection-

>>	able, but is that what the readers of r.f.v. really want...a constant

>>	round of intellectual backslapping where the same information is

>>	propagated in an endless string of re-posted articles, pre-digested

>>	by someone else?  I doubt it.

> 

>For someone who is not kindly disposed towards vegetarianism and

>who has repeatedly initiated personal attacks and insults towards

>many of the vegetarian contributors on rec.food.veg., it is maybe

>quite telling that such a person would oppose the presence of a

>even-handed moderator.



I believe the point Mr. Young was trying (and stated rather

poorly, IMHO) is that, if debate were to be allowed on a moderated

rec.food.veg, then there would be the possibility (not certainty,

but possibility) that the moderator would give favor to certain

sides of a particular argument. This is a danger on any moderated

group where opinion is to be expressed.



For example, a moderator who happened to be vegan might not allow

postings which argued in a favor of a lacto-ovo diet. The reverse

holds as well. And an omnivorous moderator might not allow any

arguments but pro-meat through.



I agree with Mr. Altar that rec.food.veg should be moderated;

however, as I stated in private email with him, I also feel

that it should be reserved for discussions about food,

cooking techniques, recipes, etc.



Mudwrestling about the ethics of a vegetarian/vegan/whatever diet

would be much better suited to another forum. IMHO, of course.



Steve





-- 

__________________________________________________________

Steven Miale - smiale@indiana.edu   | Don't blame me - 

Assistant Instructor, CS Department | I voted Libertarian.

Indiana University, Bloomington, IN | 









==========

Subject: Re: A Different Way to Approach Reorganizing REC.FOOD.VEG

From: young@serum.kodak.com (Rich Young)

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1993 04:52:13 GMT

--------

In article <1993Oct10.180754.22494@news.cs.indiana.edu> smiale@cs.indiana.edu (Steven Miale) writes:

>In article <taltar.750285323@sfu.ca>, Ted Altar <taltar@beaufort.sfu.ca> wrote:

>>young@serum.kodak.com (Rich Young) writes:

>>

>>>	A moderated forum would censor postings the moderator found objection-

>>>	able, but is that what the readers of r.f.v. really want...a constant

>>>	round of intellectual backslapping where the same information is

>>>	propagated in an endless string of re-posted articles, pre-digested

>>>	by someone else?  I doubt it.

>> 

>>For someone who is not kindly disposed towards vegetarianism and

>>who has repeatedly initiated personal attacks and insults towards

>>many of the vegetarian contributors on rec.food.veg., it is maybe

>>quite telling that such a person would oppose the presence of a

>>even-handed moderator.

>

>I believe the point Mr. Young was trying (and stated rather

>poorly, IMHO) is that, if debate were to be allowed on a moderated

>rec.food.veg, then there would be the possibility (not certainty,

>but possibility) that the moderator would give favor to certain

>sides of a particular argument.



	Rather than guess at it, permit me to explain exactly what I meant.

	I meant that the moderator of a vegetarian group is likely to be

	vegetarian, could easily censor postings which disagree with the

	dogma of the lifestyle, and thus guarantee a constant repetition

	of postings in which the same selective quotation, distortion of

	fact, dismissal of opposing evidence, and general lack of discerning

	thought takes place.  I, personally, don't much care, but I'd hate

	to think that such a narrow view would actually be thought to be

	beneficial.





-Rich Young



(The views expressed herein do not reflect those of Eastman Kodak Company Inc.)









==========

Subject: Re: A Different Way to Approach Reorganizing REC.FOOD.VEG

From: taltar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Altar)

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1993 16:39:42 GMT

--------

young@serum.kodak.com (Rich Young) writes:



>	Rather than guess at it, permit me to explain exactly what I meant.

>	I meant that the moderator of a vegetarian group is likely to be

>	vegetarian, could easily censor postings which disagree with the

>	dogma of the lifestyle, and thus guarantee a constant repetition

>	of postings in which the same selective quotation, distortion of

>	fact, dismissal of opposing evidence, and general lack of discerning

>	thought takes place.  I, personally, don't much care, but I'd hate

>	to think that such a narrow view would actually be thought to be

>	beneficial.



Yeah, it would be terrible if it turned out that vegetarianism might

be beneficial.  What a terrible thought!





>(The views expressed herein do not reflect those of Eastman Kodak Company Inc.)









==========

Subject: Re: A Different Way to Approach Reorganizing REC.FOOD.VEG

From: taltar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Altar)

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1993 08:50:44 GMT

--------

smiale@cs.indiana.edu (Steven Miale) writes:



>... if debate were to be allowed on a moderated

>rec.food.veg, then there would be the possibility (not certainty,

>but possibility) that the moderator would give favor to certain

>sides of a particular argument. This is a danger on any moderated

>group where opinion is to be expressed.



I agree.  The possibility of abuse exists, but that by itself

does not speak against recommending a moderator to ensure

that civil debate transpires on rec.food.veg.





>For example, a moderator who happened to be vegan might not allow

>postings which argued in a favor of a lacto-ovo diet. The reverse

>holds as well.



This would not happen as such would be a clear abuse of what

a moderator would moderate on a conference titled, rec.food.veg.

This is not "rec.food.vegan" or "rec.food.lacto-ovo", it is

rec.food.vegetarian and that includes lacto-ovo vegetarians

and vegans, as clearly expressed in the FAQ.





>And an omnivorous moderator might not allow any arguments 

>but pro-meat through.



Now, this indeed is a real worry.   ;-) 



					Cheers,

						Ted













==========

Subject: Re: A Different Way to Approach Reorganizing REC.FOOD.VEG

From: smiale@cs.indiana.edu (Steven Miale)

Date: 11 Oct 93 21:03:43 GMT

--------

In article <taltar.750329444@sfu.ca>, Ted Altar <taltar@beaufort.sfu.ca> wrote:

>smiale@cs.indiana.edu (Steven Miale) writes:

>>... if debate were to be allowed on a moderated

>>rec.food.veg, then there would be the possibility (not certainty,

>>but possibility) that the moderator would give favor to certain

>>sides of a particular argument. This is a danger on any moderated

>>group where opinion is to be expressed.

>

>I agree.  The possibility of abuse exists, but that by itself

>does not speak against recommending a moderator to ensure

>that civil debate transpires on rec.food.veg.



True, but remember that the reason that moderation was proposed in

the first place was to put all the "mudwrestling" somewhere else,

like talk.politics.animals. Frankly, that sort of debate has no

place in a food group.



>>For example, a moderator who happened to be vegan might not allow

>>postings which argued in a favor of a lacto-ovo diet. The reverse

>>holds as well.

>

>This would not happen as such would be a clear abuse of what

>a moderator would moderate on a conference titled, rec.food.veg.



Uh... so? The moderator isn't going to care at that point. And

dumping the moderator of a group is a difficult task.



>This is not "rec.food.vegan" or "rec.food.lacto-ovo", it is

>rec.food.vegetarian and that includes lacto-ovo vegetarians

>and vegans, as clearly expressed in the FAQ.



But there is NOTHING to prevent a moderator from enforcing

a strictly pro-{vegan | ovo | lacto | lacto-ovo} viewpoint,

with no other viewpoint allowed. And I seriously doubt that

any argument against vegetarianism, however eloquent or

scientifically accurate, would be posted.



That's the problem with allowing debate on the ethics of

vegetarianism - the moderator might and probably will be

biased, whether the bias is intentional or not.



Think about it - a "moderated debate forum"? 



>>And an omnivorous moderator might not allow any arguments 

>>but pro-meat through.

>

>Now, this indeed is a real worry.   ;-) 



Aww, come on. Let's make Rich Young the moderator. 

"Gee, I haven't seen any postings from Michael Traub

or Ted Altar lately..."



:-)



Steve







-- 

__________________________________________________________

Steven Miale - smiale@indiana.edu   | Don't blame me - 

Assistant Instructor, CS Department | I voted Libertarian.

Indiana University, Bloomington, IN | 









==========

Subject: Re: A Different Way to Approach Reorganizing REC.FOOD.VEG

From: tms@cs.umd.edu (Tom Swiss)

Date: 10 Oct 1993 23:31:14 -0400

--------

taltar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Altar) writes:

> 

>In any case, the above remark shows a despotic lack of

>consideration for the many new readers that appear on

>rec.food.veg every month.  There is nothing wrong with saving

>some of the better information postings so that new people can

>also benefit.  Old readers need not be bothered by repeat

>messages because there is the convention of adding the header

>[REPOST].



     "Despotic?" C'mon, Ted, that a bit harsh.



     Anyway, I've been keeping the ftp site to avoid such wasted bandwidth.

Speaking of which, it's about time to post the index again:



     Index for flubber.cs.umd.edu, directory other/tms/veg. The following

files are available to anonymous ftp:



[Opinions expressed in these documents are those of the authors, and not

necessarily those of the University of Maryland, or mine. - tms]



ADA.position - Position of the American Dietetic Association on vegetarianism.

B12 - Information about vitamin B12 and deficiency thereof.

BeyondBeefBackground - the Beyond Beef Campaign.

BeyondBeefBarnard - _The Beef Diet - Prescription for Disaster_, Neal Barnard.

BeyondBeefBello - _Cows Eat Better Than People Do_, Walden Bello.

BeyondBeefEnvironment - Environmental costs of beef production.

BeyondBeefFarm - Beyond Beef Farm Policy.

BeyondBeefHealth - Beyond Beef's information on health effects of meat.

BeyondBeefHoyt - _Farm Animals: Commodities or Creatures?_, John Hoyt.

BeyondBeefQuotes - Beyond Beef Quotable Quotes.

BeyondBeefRifkin - _Cattle and the Global Environmental Crisis_, Jeremy Rifkin.

China.study - study of Chinese diet patterns and relation to health.

FAQ.rec.food.veg - rec.food.veg FAQ list.

Gandhi - _Vegetarianism: The Road to Satyagraha_ by Arun M. Sannuti.

Index - this file.

PCRM.B12 - PCRM on vitamin B12.

PCRM.McDonalds - PCRM press release on McDonald's claims.

PCRM.calcium - PCRM on calcium.

PCRM.cancer - PCRM on cancer.

PCRM.cholesterol - PCRM on cholesterol.

PCRM.dairy - PCRM on dairy products.

PCRM.diabetes - Dietary fat and diabetes.

PCRM.hypoglycemia - Hypoglycemia and diet.

PCRM.milk.press-release - PCRM's controvertial press release on milk.

PCRM.protein - The protein myth.

PCRM.veg.food - Benefits of vegetarian food.

PCRM.weight - Weight control.

Xian.veg - from _Christianity and the Rights of Animals_, Rev. A. Linzey.

animal.ingredients - a list of animal derived ingredients.

beef - Words to Kris Parker's rap song.

brethren - Edgar Kupfer's _Animals, My Brethren_. Read it.

comstock - comments by Gary Comstock about animal agriculture.

fat.land - _Fat of the Land_, Alan Durning, Worldwatch Institute.

leather.alternatives.FAQ - Tom Swiss's list of non-leather goods.

osteoporosis - Diet and osteoporosis.

self.sufficiency - Farming, meat-centered diets, and self sufficiency.

singer - Preface to _Food for the Spirit_, by Isaac Bashevis Singer.

son.sue - "The Son of Big Sue," from May/June 1992 Vegetarian Journal.

viva - _Viva, The Chicken Hen_, by Karen Davis, from _Between the Species_.





===============================================================================

Tom Swiss/tms@cs.umd.edu  |  "Born to die"   |   Keep your laws off my brain!

     "What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?" - Nick Lowe 

    Prohibition doesn't work. End the War on Some Drugs. Hemp for Victory!

"We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or that if they have

 existed up to now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in

 the future." -- Max Planck









==========

Subject: Re: A Different Way to Approach Reorganizing REC.FOOD.VEG

From: taltar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Altar)

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1993 08:33:56 GMT

--------

tms@cs.umd.edu (Tom Swiss) writes:



>taltar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Altar) writes:

>> 

>>In any case, the above remark shows a despotic lack of

>>consideration for the many new readers that appear on

>>rec.food.veg every month.  There is nothing wrong with saving

>>some of the better information postings so that new people can

>>also benefit.  Old readers need not be bothered by repeat

>>messages because there is the convention of adding the header

>>[REPOST].



>     "Despotic?" C'mon, Ted, that a bit harsh.



Ok, you're right, cross off the adjective "despotic".  I've

been reading too many bad postings on usernet.  :-(   



Now, while badly expressed, I do feel strongly that we

all should consider the needs of others and not just

oneself, particularly the new readers, who may appreciate

some of those old postings being made available to them.



Tom, permit me to thank you for maintaining your FTP site

on which you've kept a number of good files previously posted 

on rec.food.veg.  I've had occasion to use it myself.

It is indeed very useful and it does save on bandwith.

Of course, you can't keep everything and I do know that

not everybody has FTP access.  Anyway, thanks again.



				Cheers,

					Ted











==========

Subject: Re: A Different Way to Approach Reorganizing REC.FOOD.VEG

From: taltar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Altar)

Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1993 22:37:38 GMT

--------

taylor@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Dave Taylor) writes:



>It struck me that we can't really talk about how we'd like to 

>reorganize the mess that rec.food.veg has become without trying

>to better analyse how it's currently being used.  So to get a better 

>understanding of rec.food.veg, I grabbed the subject lines of

>the last 180 articles or so to arrive here at Purdue and tried to 

>categorize them:



>The specifics are attached, but a summary:



>	FAQ and Adminstrative Issues		41 articles (*)

>	Cooking Equipment			15 articles

>	Cooking Ingredients & Usage		21 articles

>	Travel Issues				 5 articles

>	Political and Philosophical Issues	50 articles

>	Supplements & Vitamins			 8 articles

>	(Other, not categorized)		21 articles



>		(*) includes discussion of reorganization



 Dave, I appreciate your labor to provide this breakdown.  Permit

me to observe that there is an important consideration that is

lost by the numbers.  Much of the political/philosophical

debate involves replies and short comments.  The other topics

inspire or require less comment and invite less debate.



I still see an natural unity to these topics such that one

topic will imply or beg for some linkage to any of the others.

Why bother with vegetarian recipes if one wasn't interested

in their possible merits for health, ethics or ecology?  If it

is just good tasting food, then why not simply frequent alt.food.cooking?

Why bother with certain ethical or ecological considerations if

one's everyday act of simply eating violates those considerations?

And so it goes. 



There's a nice unity here, imperfect as that might be, and the

very sourcespring for this group are the very vegetarians who

for the most part do appreciate this interweaving of nutrition,

health, ecology and ethics that is uniquely provided by the

vegetarian option.



				Regards,

					Ted











==========

Subject: flame wars and triChrom..

From: gorilla@cats.ucsc.edu (Christopher John Arnold)

Date: 7 Oct 1993 23:04:49 GMT

--------



Could all of you idiotically puerile pinheads take your little

flame war off the bandwidth. I, and many other readers I'm sure, 

are getting rather sick of "Why doesn't this surprise me" and 

"I have a degree in whatever..." so could you please go away.



-Chris











==========

Subject: Re: flame wars and triChrom..

From: j0m1742@venus.tamu.edu (MANHART, JAMES)

Date: 8 Oct 1993 09:08 CDT

--------

In article <2927ai$alp@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, gorilla@cats.ucsc.edu (Christopher John Arnold) writes...

> 

>Could all of you idiotically puerile pinheads take your little

>flame war off the bandwidth. I, and many other readers I'm sure, 

>are getting rather sick of "Why doesn't this surprise me" and 

>"I have a degree in whatever..." so could you please go away.

> 

>-Chris

> 

Amen, Brother.  I would hope that you could find better things to

do with your time than insult each other.  It is interesting that

a communication service like the Internet releases inhibitions

and allows some individuals to trade insults in a way that they would

never do in public.  You might try to imagine that you are talking

to someone that you know and respect and reply accordingly when posting

on the net.





Jim Manhart, Dept. of Biology, Texas A&M University

College Station, TX 77843-3258, (409) 845-3356, 

email:  J-Manhart@TAMU.EDU (Internet) J0M1742@TAMVENUS (Bitnet)









==========

Subject: Freezing Pesto and Basil

From: traite@pliny.harvard.edu (Shirley Traite)

Date: 8 Oct 1993 20:20:39 GMT

--------



Ok,  I've been half following this thread so here's my

view and hint:



On Freezing Pesto:



I've been freezing pesto  (with garlic and pine nuts) for years with

no  decrease in flavor.  I just let it thaw out on the counter before

I use it. (Heating it will destroy the flavor.)



On Freezing Basil:



Dried basil just isn't the same in my book.

Since I grow too much basil to use at once, during

the growing season I weekly pinch off the stems 

(to encourage branching) and freeze the leaves 

I can't use immediately.  I've eaten basil

frozen a year previously with no ill effects or 

taste compromise.



Freezing basil can be a little tricky.

I found that just washing  the leaves, blotting the 

excess water and sticking them in a bag in the freezer

will result in black basil. (Not very appetizing !)

Instead, I wash the leaves and then run them through

a salad spinner to get rid of more of the excess water.

I then pop them into the freezer.  This results in

frozen green leaves that make a fine pesto or  a

great addition to tomato sauce, stews, soups etc.

------

Shirley Traite (traite@sdac.harvard.edu)



<> IT IS A VIRTUE TO HAVE AN OPEN AND INQUISITIVE MIND. <>















==========

Subject: garlic

From: estrinj@solix.fiu.edu (Jonathan Estrin)

Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1993 22:51:36 GMT

--------

I have heard that taking garlic capsules can be very helpful in preventing

and alleviating colds.  BUT... can anyone tell me if this makes you smell

like garlic?





Thanks!    Heid



--

********************************************************************************

Jonathan W. Estrin                    *  Also at this address:

Reference Librarian                   *  Heidi Rabinowitz

Florida International University      *  Future Children's Librarian

Library--AT 249                       *  Don't Know Where Yet

Miami, FL 33199                       *

(305) 348-3578                        *  

estrinj@servax.fiu.edu (work)         *  reply to estrinj@solix.fiu.edu

estrinj@solix.fiu.edu  (play)         *  ;^)

*******************************************************************************

If people did not sometimes do silly things, nothing intelligent would ever

get done.        --Ludwig Wittgenstein

*******************************************************************************











==========

Subject: Re: garlic

From: FARM-PA@finou.oulu.fi (Pentti Arvela)

Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1993 06:30:15 GMT

--------

In article <CELou2.75z@fiu.edu>

estrinj@solix.fiu.edu (Jonathan Estrin) writes:

 

>

>I have heard that taking garlic capsules can be very helpful in preventing

>and alleviating colds.  BUT... can anyone tell me if this makes you smell

>like garlic?

Yes, you will have a slight pleasant garlic smell in your breath but why

eat pills when you can eat the real stuff and enjoy the taste. I do not

know if garlic is so suitable if you already have catch a cold but some

people have noticed that most people trying to give you their infections

stay enough far away from you if you eat lot of garlic.

Good luck from a Finnish garlic lover.

>

>

>Thanks!    Heid

>

>--

>********************************************************************************

>Jonathan W. Estrin                    *  Also at this address:

>Reference Librarian                   *  Heidi Rabinowitz

>Florida International University      *  Future Children's Librarian

>Library--AT 249                       *  Don't Know Where Yet

>Miami, FL 33199                       *

>(305) 348-3578                        *

>estrinj@servax.fiu.edu (work)         *  reply to estrinj@solix.fiu.edu

>estrinj@solix.fiu.edu  (play)         *  ;^)

>*******************************************************************************

>If people did not sometimes do silly things, nothing intelligent would ever

>get done.        --Ludwig Wittgenstein

>*******************************************************************************

>









==========

Subject: Re: garlic

From: awoods@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Alan Woods)

Date: 10 Oct 1993 15:01:36 GMT

--------

In article <CELou2.75z@fiu.edu> estrinj@solix.fiu.edu (Jonathan Estrin) writes:

>I have heard that taking garlic capsules can be very helpful in preventing

>and alleviating colds.  BUT... can anyone tell me if this makes you smell

>like garlic?

>

>

>Thanks!    Heid

>

the garlic smell will be very faint--that's why the capsules were developed, 

among other things.  But what's wrong with garlic smell?  Unless you eat a 

_lot_ of garlic raw, the smell is not terribly noticable, unless you interact 

with people much closer than usual.  Basic rule of thumb:  always start cooking 

with chopped onions and garlic.*

>If people did not sometimes do silly things, nothing intelligent would ever

>get done.        --Ludwig Wittgenstein

>******************************************************************************

*

>









==========

Subject: Re: garlic

From: stacey@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (Stacey B. Martin)

Date: 11 Oct 1993 21:37:24 GMT

--------

In article <CELou2.75z@fiu.edu>, estrinj@solix.fiu.edu (Jonathan Estrin)

wrote:

> 

> I have heard that taking garlic capsules can be very helpful in preventing

> and alleviating colds.  BUT... can anyone tell me if this makes you smell

> like garlic?

> 

> 

> Thanks!    Heid

> 

> --

> 



Garlic in incredibly anti-fungal, anti-viral, and also antibacterial. 



I have eaten a clove of raw garlic when I had the flu really badly. I was

almost cured the next day. It cuts the congestion in your head and chest

like nothing else. It will also burn your socks off. :-)



According to the herbals I have read, garlic capsules that have been

deodorized are not nearly as effective as raw garlic. Whatever the smelly

stuff is in garlic is what makes it work. Just eat parsley afterwards.



It does make the best cold/flu remedy. It also puts hair on your chest. :-)



Stacey









==========

Subject: garlic

From: cafephrk@echonyc.com (Cathy Young)

Date: 12 Oct 1993 21:02:28 -0400

--------





I also have been healed by garlic's

magical powers.

Whenever I feel a cold or an achy flu

coming on, I make a pot of garlic/

ginger/lemon/cayenne tea (soup?).



Steep all of the ingredients in whatever

percentages you can deal with.  (I like 

equal garlic and ginger...with the juice

of one lemon at least, cayenne to taste.)



It's magic!













==========

Subject: Re: garlic

From: westphal@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Kathy Westphal)

Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 04:27:48 GMT

--------

estrinj@solix.fiu.edu (Jonathan Estrin\Heidi Rabinowitz) writes:



>I have heard that taking garlic capsules can be very helpful in preventing

>and alleviating colds.  BUT... can anyone tell me if this makes you smell

>like garlic?



Only if you burp!   :)



>Thanks!    Heidi







-- 

Katherine A. Westphal              |   "And you know it's time to go

westphal@ucsu.colorado.edu         | through the sleet and driving snow

University of Colorado at Boulder  | across the fields of mourning to a

Department of Political Science    | light that's in the distance"--U2









==========

Subject: garlic

From: mducey@ucs.indiana.edu (m.e.ducey)

Date: 20 May 1995 20:18:14 GMT

--------

It is my  unprofessional understanding that  garlic is a natural antibiotic



--











==========

Subject: Tylenol and substitutes...

From: greenie3@polyp.micro.umn.edu (luisa beltran)

Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1993 03:29:53 GMT

--------

I'd like to know of a good homopathic substitution for Tylenol when it comes to headaches. I get them occasionaly (usualy with fatigue), and my mother has the powerhouse migraine ones. If any one knows of such remedies please send me a e-mail note on what they've learned.



Thanks!

--

+--------------------+-------------------------------------+-----------------+

|      [ ] [ ]       | e-mail: belt0003@student.tc.umn.edu | L Elena Beltran |

|      / \ / \       | other(s): elena0003@aol.com         | 1263 Timbershore|

|    [ ] [ ] [ ]     |           greenie3@mermaid.micro	   | Eagan, MN       |









==========

Subject: FTP

From: josephl@clark.net (Joseph A. Liu)

Date: 9 Oct 1993 15:51:39 GMT

--------



Where is the FTP site(s) for alt.folklore.herbs.



Thank you.



JAL











==========

Subject: Fungal Cures??

From: springer@bastille.cchem.berkeley.edu (Clayton Springer)

Date: 9 Oct 1993 21:37:49 GMT

--------

Does anyone know about herbal cures for fungal infections?  In particular

I ask because I heard several interviews with an Ethnobotanist who said

that some Amazon tribe "shaman" knew what to do.  



Clayton Springer



BTW, the interviews were on NPR's Fresh Air, and KQED's(San Francisco) 

Forum.









==========

Subject: Re: Fungal Cures??

From: MULROY@EPISAS.EPI.WISC.EDU (ROBERT MULROY)

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 93 20:07:05 GMT

--------

In <297avd$7kd@agate.berkeley.edu> springer@bastille.cchem.berkeley.edu writes:



> Does anyone know about herbal cures for fungal infections?  In particular

> I ask because I heard several interviews with an Ethnobotanist who said

> that some Amazon tribe "shaman" knew what to do.  

> 

> Clayton Springer

> 

> BTW, the interviews were on NPR's Fresh Air, and KQED's(San Francisco) 

> Forum.

try tea-tree oil or raw honey.



Bob

STANDARD DISCLAIMERS APPLY: (you'd better believe it!)

The opinions expressed are not necessarily shared by this organization.











==========

Subject: Re: Fungal Cures??

From: jeanthea@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Mark Jeantheau)

Date: 12 Oct 93 16:06:55 GMT

--------

Pau D'Arco (Taheebo) is reported to have anti-fungal properties.  It

makes a drinkable tea.





-----

jeanthea@oasys.dt.navy.mil // Mark Jeantheau // (202) 227-3562 // U.S. Navy

Naval Surface Warfare Center, Carderock Div. // Code 1401 // Bethesda MD 20084

-----

Opinions expressed herein blah blah blah... [Standard disclaimer.]

-----









==========

Subject: Re: Fungal Cures??

From: John Roberts <jwr4@cornell.edu>

Date: 19 Oct 1993 20:56:32 GMT

--------

Re: Fungal Cures??



A tincture of Bloodroot (Sanquinaria canadensis) is effective.  Becareful

of concentration, will cause a blister is too strong.



John









==========

Subject: Naturenet BBS

From: london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London)

Date: 10 Oct 1993 02:46:31 GMT

--------



Fri 8 Oct 93  5:50

By: John Willis

Re: Natural stuff...



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==========

Subject: Swelling reduction suggestion

From: stfran@oberon.ckp.edu (Kathy Daugherty)

Date: 10 Oct 93 11:02:55 GMT

--------



I am seeking suggestions for an herbal treatment to reduce swelling

over the cheekbone. I have consulted a physician and a plastic surgeon.

Other processes being regulated (like thyroid), there is apparently nothing

one can do. This is not under the eye but right over the upper cheekbone.

Tea bags don't work.

stfran@oberon.ckp.edu









==========

Subject: Herblore Archives

From: mongoose@netcom.com (Nora M. Johnson)

Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1993 16:55:26 GMT

--------

A while back, someone posted the location of herblore archives available for

perusal.  Could someone either repost that location or mail me with it?

Thanks.



						Nora



-- 

=======================

Nora M. Johnson					mongoose@netcom.com



"Hold on tight, the night has come. ==Indigo Girls

=======================









==========

Subject: Does Science have the ONLY truth? (was Re: TriChromalene(sp?))

From: music@erich.triumf.ca (FRED W. BACH)

Date: 11 Oct 1993 11:42 PST

--------



  I have removed the diet-support group from the Newsgroup header and left

 alt.folklore.herbs ...



     ... which is the newsgroup for the 'promotion' or exposure

  of herbs as being beneficial for various things, including healing.

  Therefore, I consider it paramount that false ideas be exposed.  These

  include the idea that a 'fact' is only a 'fact' after some 'scientific'

  study has declared it so.  In practical life this is just not so.



In article <292h1tINNfi6@lynx.unm.edu>, mycol1@triton.unm.edu (Bryant )

  writes...

# 

# 

#Fred:

# 

#   I've not read through the entire thread, but I'd like to offer some

#arrogant, young observations:

# 



   I don't dislike young people, and I don't think that I am "better" than

 young people.  In fact, young folks' brains and bodies work way faster than

 mine.   Trouble is, they don't seem to have much in them yet.  Listen, live,

 ask questions and learn should be their motto,  Not "here I am... look at how

 smart I am because I just got my degree yesterday".   I have worked with these

 people since the 1960's, and I am here to dispell the know-it-all attitude

 of many young graduates.  I feel it is my duty.  When I came out of school 

 in my field, yeah, I knew it all, too.  The older a person gets, the more 

 he/she should realize that there is a lot more to learn, and even the humble

 people (those without PhD degrees) have a lot of collective wisdom.



#1. You don't have to be uneduacted to regret mortality.



    Slightly misunderstood.  Rather, my point was that education doesn't

    matter much in order to *** understand *** mortality, and that, when it

    comes to our mortality and that of those close to us, such mortality will

    weigh slightly <what's the emoticon for understatement?> heavier on our

    minds than might other things such as education itself and its associated

    philosophies and philosophers.  (Ah, the difference between theory and

    practice!)



    In other words, when medical science fails, we'll try anything; and then if

    it works we'll be more skeptical of medical science's wherewithall and

    its right to declare everything else as quackery.  Even those 'educated'

    philosophers themselves will come to realize this when the time comes and

    when they are personally affronted with (or, exposed to) the cold facts of

    a different point of view.  Actually, the possibility that maybe, just

    maybe, this new point of view might be valid usually just occurs to

    them when presented in this manner with the facts, even though the 

    statistics certainly are bad and it basically goes against all their 

    so-called 'scientific' training.



# 

#2.  Your reverence for bashing the only systematic way of gathering 

# information

#about the world digusts me. Laugh away at scientists. They've still 

# contributed tremendously to your standard of living.  





    Agreed.  Trouble is, you and they think it is the ONLY systematic way. 

   Rubbish!



   Do you publish a paper or read a published paper on everything you do

   every day?  Have you published your paper yet on how you take out the

   garbage?  Has anyone?  And, if it has been done, does it necessarily

   mandiate when & how you do it?  You seem to justify the 'publish or perish'

   mentality, which, unfortunately, is an all-too-real fact of life for some

   very nice people.  They have to publish in order to survive, so other or

   easier forms of finding/dispersing truth threaten their livelihood and

   their academic standing and perhaps their eventual tenure.



   Why do all you smart, educated folks keep skipping over what I say: that 

   modern medical science does *indeed* have some really wonderful products

   and some really wonderful people, and it has helped millions of people get

   over potentially fatal diseases.  No one is denying that, not even I.  I

   have gone out of my way to say that such work *has* been done.  Modern

   science has made many many awesome discoveries about nature, and has 

   produced some wonderful, truly amazing and very useful devices.  It will

   continue to do so.  In fact, I work in and support this endeavour.



   The point is that, many proponents of modern science tout it as the ONLY

   source of consumable current technical information.  If it isn't published

   and reproduced by other experimenters & other experiments, well then such

   such knowledge does not exist, and then nobody has the right to use or

   publish that information.  As someone showed on this newsgroup, Science

   can only prove things *wrong*.  Lack of any proof does not constitute proof

   of falsehood.  But if we go by people's everyday experiences, well then, 

   we become what Steve would call "hucksters" if we tried to use such 

   not-proven-wrong information to support us in a commercial venture, or

   maybe even in a non-profit, altruistic, for-the-love-of-humanity venture.



   Here again, from your comments,  you would appear to think that modern 

   publications, and those that publish them, are the ONLY means by which 

   reliable, or useful, information is gathered, validated, and dispensed.

   It isn't.  Daily life is real and so are our personal observations.  Yeah,

   some one-time observations may be wrong, but for things that happen day

   after day every day, well, we get used to these things.  We don't need

   some paper gathering dust on some shelf to validate our observations.



   I keep on saying again and again that the "scientific method" is not

   foolproof and that flip-flops are not uncommon.  Study history.  The hype 

   in the 1950's and 1960's about home-cures and herbs being 'no good, 

   useless, foolish' etc. for cancer cures was just plain lies.  They had 

   NO RIGHT to make that blanket statement because they had NO PROOF.  And

   just because there really were some "hucksters" in the business, medical

   science tarred all herbal cures with the same proverbial brush, and boldly

   said in its ads and posters:



      'we have the right <religion> cure.  Nobody else has.  Come to us.'

   (Please note the single quotes indicating my free paraphrasing.)



   Do you remember those ads & posters?  I do.



   For more proof, just look at today's love affair between the humble yew tree

   and the folks treating breast cancer.  Taxinol from the yew tree is just

   about the *finest* thing ever discovered for this form of cancer.  I submit

   to you that the yew tree and knowledge of it has been around for an awfully

   long before modern science found it, and there is NO WAY that modern 

   science can take credit for inventing this natural drug.  Does not its

   very existance seem to be screaming out "hey, don't destroy the forests

   and stop extinguishing all these species without even studying them" ??

   The almost religious view of the environmentalists can be understood in

   this context.  The fact that fully 25% of drugs now manufactured had their

   'roots' in the plant world ought to be ample proof that nature holds even

   yet an abundance of "secrets".  If I were to discover a plant which cured

   such-and-such a disease today, and if I were **NOT** to publish it in

   some journal, would that make the cure any more or less valid in reality?

   If I were to bottle it and sell it (a la the American enterprising spirit),

   and it people got better by taking it, does the lack of paper mean that the

   people really did not recover?  Do the laws of biology and chemistry wait

   for someone to publish them before they come into effect?  Of course not!  

   The papers don't really matter to the atoms of our bodies.  It's just in

   some people's heads that they matter (and often in their wallets).

   (For those anthropic physicists out there: did your looking at the cat

   really kill it?  The ultimate evil-eye ;-)  )



   Incidentally, taxinol is now a tremendous money-maker for forestry, for the

   companies processing the trees, for the pharmaceutical companies which

   produce the final product, and for the Doctors and/or hospitals/clinics

   who administer the drug.  The money is what is now driving the industry.

   Of course there is demand, but the demand is being transformed into money.

# 

#3.  Eat your damn herbs and shut up; the FDA, as I read them, are only

  demanding the removal of unproven claims for secondary metabolites.



    I will continue to consume my "blessed" <not "damn"ed> herbs, thanks.

    ( ;-) Actually I might be wrong here... the proposed bill would "damn"

     or condemn certain herbs ;-)  See below.)



    There was a bill to prevent the **preparation and sale** of certain herbs.

    This is the one to which I am severly objecting, and about which most 

    people seem unaware.   If that passed as drafted, about the only way they

    could be sold would have been in the raw (unprepared) state like we sell

    carrots and lettuce now.  I don't think it will pass in its original form.

    Apparently some senators are trying to get it ammended/modified.  When I 

    get the info, I will present it here.  Information is available from the

    health-food co-op in Bellingham, Washington, if any of you are close to

    there.  Drop in and read the posters and newspaper articles.

# 

#  Apologies if I misunderstood your stance.  You were less than articulate.

# 



   Yes, you slightly misunderstood my stance.  I have NO OBJECTION to science.

   (As for the politics of medical science, well, that's another story.)

   In fact, I sincerely wish that science would launch studies into ALL these

   herbs that are considered beneficial for certain ailments.  Science has

   at least discovered echinacea and garlic.  Maybe it will discover another

   'taxinol'.  As has been pointed out by someone ELSE on this newsgroup, the

   thorough testing by current Western Medical standards of all the herbs used

   in herbal medicine today would take an incredible amount of money for the

   studies, and they couldn't be finished, if they started today, for about

   20 years, considering how long the ADVIL/MOTRIN studies took.  Any ban on

   the sale of prepared herbs now would possibly make them 'unavailable' in

   commercial form for that same 20 years, and would put an effective stop

   to their legal sale for that length of time.  (But I think it would just

   create a black market in them.)



   Although there is movement in some areas (acupuncture), when you see the

   medical profession's overall hatred for, and persecution of, herbalists and

   natural healers (acupuncturists, chiropractors, etc.) down through the 

   modern history (from about WWII), you begin to recognize a pattern of 

   things that young people don't recognize.  It's like when you use some new

   word while talking to your children.  They often either don't hear or 

   remember the word, or they hear it as some other similar but more familiar

   word.  It's like those black-and-white drawings where there is supposed to

   be some animal hiding amongst the bushes and you have to pick out and 

   identify the animal.  You can stare at the drawing for several minutes or

   even hours until you find the animal.  Then, every time you see that same

   drawing, you will virtually instantly pick out the animal with very little

   effort, even after several *years* of not seeing the drawing.  Patterns

   stick in your brain, and they help you to recognize other patterns faster.

   So it is with this herb ban.  Anyone who thinks that Science and Politics

   are independent is unrealistic.  Politics is money, and money is politics;

   and you can't do science these days without money.



   Science supposedly knows that it has a lot to learn.  I only object to

   scientists and certain organizations who say that science knows all that is

   currently known.  They don't, yet.  And, yes, when there is a lot to be

   said, it is *indeed* difficult to find the exact words that all readers will

   understand or accept.  Thanks for your comments.



#Bryant



  Best regards,



 Fred W. Bach ,    Operations Group        |  Internet: music@erich.triumf.ca

 TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility)    |  Voice:  604-222-1047 loc 327/278

 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS            |  FAX:    604-222-1074

 University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA   V6T 2A3



 These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question.

 They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers.









==========

Subject: Memory

From: mongoose@netcom.com (Nora M. Johnson)

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1993 23:53:06 GMT

--------

Very simply, I'm interested in herbs or herbal combinations which might

help my memory retention.  Frankly, mine is terrible, though my recall of

events is pretty good.  Reply through email, please.  Thanks.



Nora



-- 

=======================

Nora M. Johnson					mongoose@netcom.com



"Hold on tight, the night has come. ==Indigo Girls

=======================









==========

Subject: Memory

From: gwitty@sccsi.com (Gary Witty)

Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 14:41:14 UNDEFINED

--------

I recently saw a TV show that told of some extract that can enhance memory. 



Is this true? If so, where may I obtain this?



     (o) (o)         Gary Witty            Black Gold BBS

--oOO--(_)--OOo--------------------------------------------------------

           INTERNET: gary.witty@bgbbs.com  Oklahoma's Biggest and Best!

               FIDO: 1:170/309             (918) 272-7779



                     "But hey... These are just my opinions...

                     I could be wrong" -- Dennis Miller











==========

Subject: Re: Memory

From: weigand@stimpy.eecis.udel.edu (Steven Weigand)

Date: 14 Sep 1994 21:56:22 GMT

--------

In article <gwitty.43.0028A736@sccsi.com> gwitty@sccsi.com (Gary Witty) writes:

>I recently saw a TV show that told of some extract that can enhance memory. 

>

>Is this true? If so, where may I obtain this?



My little black bag-o-tricks... Things that I've either heard or have

found to improve mental functioning:



     Ginkgo biloba, l-glutamine,  choline, inositol,  siberian 

ginseng,  vitamin A and B12, lecithin (choline-inositol), and

probably a couple more.



     These are called "smart drugs", usually.  They don't improve

intelligence, but they may just "oil the machine".  They may make

you more alert and focused.  Ginkgo biloba is just amazing!  So

in lecithin.   Some of these should be combined for the most 

effect, from what I'm told.  



DISCLAIMER:  I'm not a doctor.  I don't even go to a medical school.

   I'm just a guy.  Don't take any of that stuff simply because I

   told you it would be okay to.  (Sometimes I get worried at posts

   I see on here *prescribing* medications!)



Ciao for now, 

  - Steve Weigand

  (weigand@udel.edu)













==========

Subject: Re: Memory

From: dianew6069@aol.com (DianeW6069)

Date: 2 Oct 1994 01:45:05 -0400

--------

Gary Witty is seeking info about Ginkgo Biloba.  Several people have made

suggestions about lecithin and certain amino acids.  I concur, and I also

concur that we should all be careful not to "prescribe" but only suggest. 

Ginkgo is from the tree which grows ornamentally in china and is found

lining many streets on the east coast, particularly in

Philadelphia....anyway, Ginkgo and Gotu Kola together form a great brain

food which improves blood circulation to the brain, acting on the cerebral

cortex through the adrenal glands to improve memory.  

Just plain "Ginseng" (usually Korean, American, White or Red, or Chinese) 

should not be taken by women because of its hormonal effects and women

would do much better if they are interested in this kind of energizing to

take Siberian Ginseng and not any other kind of ginseng.  Better yet, Dong

Quai, which is an energizing and tonifying herb.  I mention the ginseng

because several people seem to have commented about it in the context of

this post.  Good luck.









==========

Subject: Hives - Any herbs that help control/eliminate them?

From: ajz@garfield.freac.fsu.edu (A. J. Zuniga)

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 01:35:47 GMT

--------



Anyone have any suggestions as to non-traditional treatment of Hives with

herbs? Has anyone seen or heard of any herbs that can help? Any experiences

in treating them? Any suggestions?



A.J. (ajz@garfield.freac.fsu.edu) <-- email to this address only. Do not hit

                                      'r' as I have logged on root and will

                                      not be able to read your message due

                                      to circumstances beyond my control (I

                                      know it sounds lame but it's true.)









==========

Subject: Re: Hives - Any herbs that help control/eliminate them?

From: j0m1742@venus.tamu.edu (MANHART, JAMES)

Date: 12 Oct 1993 08:35 CDT

--------

In article <CErGFn.4x2@mailer.cc.fsu.edu>, ajz@garfield.freac.fsu.edu (A. J. Zuniga) writes...

> 

>Anyone have any suggestions as to non-traditional treatment of Hives with

>herbs? Has anyone seen or heard of any herbs that can help? Any experiences

>in treating them? Any suggestions?

> 



Have you tried changing your diet, changing soaps (try hypoallergenic soaps)?

If it is a recent problem, you might be able to find out the cause

by correlating it with changes in diet, or some external cause such as

a new brand of shampoo, pets, stress, etc.  



There are a number of plants

that have been used to treat hives but I do not know if any of them

work. These include Ambrosia leaves (ragweed, watch out if you have allergies),

Mitchella repens (Patridge berry) berries, Alnus serrulata (smooth alder)

bark tea, and Polypodium virginianum (common polypody) root tea 

(unknown toxicity, probably best avoided). 



Of course, it is always better to determine and eliminate the cause 

rather than treat symptoms.



Good luck,





Jim Manhart, Dept. of Biology, Texas A&M University

College Station, TX 77843-3258, (409) 845-3356, 

email:  J-Manhart@TAMU.EDU (Internet) J0M1742@TAMVENUS (Bitnet)









==========

Subject: Herb FAQ update (compiled by Judith Ann Reed)

From: london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London)

Date: 15 Oct 1993 04:27:30 GMT

--------



>From jareed@mailbox.syr.edu Thu Oct 14 23:49:18 1993

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 93 10:05:47 EDT

From: Judith Ann Reed <jareed@mailbox.syr.edu>

To: london@sunsite.unc.edu



******************************Herb FAQ****************************************

10/14/93

This is the second edition of the herb faq for rec.gardens. New items are

appended to the end of the original info, some new information is also

included in the text of older articles. New and modified articles are

marked with a "*" in the table of contents below.

I welcome your comments, further questions, and contributions, which will be

included in future revisions.

In particular, if anyone has any specific information/contributions, please

send them along. At the end is a collection of questions to be answered - if

you'd like to answer them, send that along too. The format is rather informal,

but seemed to fit the information. Comments welcome.



Judith Reed

Syracuse University

jareed@syr.edu



Contents:

(1) Herb Vinegars			*

(2) Bolting Cilantro			*

(3) Basil

(4) Scented Geraniums

(5) Stinging Nettle

(6) Drying herbs

(7) Some catalogs

(8) Horsetail

(9) Bee Balm/Bergamot

(10)Chamomile

(11)Rue

(12)Essential herb oils			*

(13)Oregano

(14)Grilling with herbs

(15)Herb names

(16)Digging out ingrown herbs

(17)Purslane

(18)Insect repelling plants

(19)Herbs A-Z

(20)Poisonous/Dangerous herbs		*

(21)To flower or not to flower

(22)Pruning woody herbs

(23)Groundcover herbs

(24)Sages

(25)Tarragon				*

(26)Herb Journal list			*

(27)Herbs for shade

(28)Small list of books on herb garden design

(29)Thymes

(30)Herbs by email

(31)Flowering chives

(32)A quick living fence

(33)Curry Plant

(34)Types of catnip

(35)Garlic

(36)Herb sources

(37)Controlling mints

(38)Growing Herbs Indoors		*

(39)Lemon Grass				*

(40)Citronella                  	*

(41)Harvesting/Drying/Using Mint	*

(42)Lemon Balm (growing)        	*

(43)Mint Flavor Fades?          	*

(44)Cumin Plant                 	*

(45)Lavender                    	*

(46)Miscellaneous Yummy Stuff!  	*

(47)Savory                      	*

(48)Aztec Sweet Herb            	*

(49)Companion Planting With Herbs       *

(50)Medicinal Uses                      *

(51)Questions seeking answers           *



(1)****************************HERB VINEGARS***********************************

My favorite base for herbed and fruit vinegars, by the way, is oriental rice

wine vinegar. It seems to be a little less acidic, and has good, but not too

strong, flavor. And it comes in gallon jars at your local oriental grocery.

*****

	You don't need a recipe just use what you like.  I just made some

summer  savory vinegar it smells wonderful.  Stuff a large jar full of

whatever herbs you want then pour vinegar over it to fill in the spaces

put plastic wrap over the jar the jar's lid on top of that and let sit a

week or so then start using for salad dressings, marinade ect.

*****

I made a couple different batches one year and it was pretty

successful. I used it mostly on salads, and it was a real

treat a few months later in the winter. By the spring, they seemed to

get a bit funky. So one suggestion, might be to make only

small size bottles in different variations instead of large bottles.

(I think they make 12 oz bottles of vinegar.)

*****

The basic method for making herb vinegars, regardless of the herb used, is

given below in the recipe.  I find that herbed vinegars are most useful in

oil and vinegar salad dressings.  The herb vinegar that I find that I use

most often is tarragon, and I usually start with a little olive oil and a

little tarragon vinegar and then start adding small quantities of fresh herbs

as well (finely chopped chives, oregano, a tiny bit of spearmint, etc.).

Herbed vinegars are also really fine in marinades (any marinade where you

would normally use white vinegar or white wine vinegar).  I notice that my

Summer Savory is ready to be picked so one of my projects for this week will

vbe to make some Savory vinegar.  Imagine how good that will taste as a

marinade for green beans!



HOMEMADE TARRAGON VINEGAR



Ingredients:



1 quart white or white wine vinegar

1/2 cup fresh tarragon leaves



Method:

Combine the tarragon and vinegar in a glass bottle with a tightly fitting

cork top (avoid using metal) and steep the vinegar in a cool, dark place for

at least one month and preferably a month and a half.  Strain the vinegar and

re-bottle it, leaving one twig of tarragon in the bottle for show.

*****

>1.  What *kind of vinegar* do you use?  White?  Apple Cider?  Wine?  Other?

>Most respondents don't seem to address this question, and it seems to me

>that that could be an important consideration.



I like herbed vinegars made with white vinegar or white wine vinegar, but

there is no reason that you couldn't use any vinegar that appealed to you.

Why not experiment?



>2.  When herbed vinegars are used as dressing on salads are they in oil and

vinegar mixtures?  Any suggestions on ratios?



Yes. You just use the herbed vinegar in place of the vinegar in the recipe.

Vinegars vary in strength so it is a good idea to add your vinegar gradually

to the dressing mix, tasting every so often to see if your dressing has

reached the desired sharpness.  The basic ratio that I use is 1 cup olive oil

to 4 tablespoons vinegar.

*****

(What kind of vinegar to use?)

Its a matter of preference. Which do you like? If you aren't sure,

since vinegar is so inexpensive, why not use a small bottle of each.

(I think you can buy 3 small bottles one of each,  for under $1 total.)

Personally, my favorite vinegar is raspberry. (but I suspect that its

just white vinegar with a bunch of berries smushed in it - not

fermented raspberries.



IMHO, at least half of the batches should have a couple of cloves of

garlic in it too. Garlic wine vinegar is pretty awesome.



(Ratio of vinegar to oil)

The same ratio as always, 3 parts oil to 1 part vinegar. Of course, if

you *really* like vinegar you might increase it to 1 to 1.

*****

Here's a variation on the theme...



Herbed oils are wonderful also. If your looking for salad things or even as

adjuncts with pasta/pasta salads or really any dish that needs oil.



Recipe:



Use whatever oil you like. For salads, olive is ideal. Stuff a  jar with

whatever herb or combination of herbs. Fill the jar with oil. Then microwave

till JUST WARM!!!!!  You just want to get the oil hot enough to extract the

flavor, but you don't want to cook it. Then after it cools, it's ready to use.

Like the vinegars, you want to use them up within about 6 mos.



Basil Oil is absolutely marvelous!!



(2)*****************************Cilantro/coriander*****************************

>I am trying to grow cilantro (coriander) for the second time, and it's

>happening to me again: after a few weeks, the plant grows very long stems,

>blooms, produces fennel-like leaves, and stops producing the usual wide

>leaves I associate with cilantro. What am I doing wrong, if anything?



I don't _think_ you're doing anything wrong (at least, I have the same results).

Last year, I compensated for cilantro's tendency to bolt by planting (from seed)

a new batch every few weeks.



Not incidentally, when your cilantro bolts and goes to seed, the seed may be

harvested for later in the cycle.  You'll end up with more seed than you need.

*****

Try Nichols Garden Nursery for a slow-bolting cilantro

    1190 North Pacific Highway

    Albany, OR 97321-4598

    ph# 503 928 9280

I just looked it up they sell both.  It's under Coriander.

*****



    Direct seed coriander in early spring or late summer through fall...

    Sowing the seeds in late spring or summer is futile because the short

    nights wil make plants flower and set seeds precociously, when they

    are tiny. Plants will withstand quite cold weather....



*****

As others have mentioned, this can come from two causes:  the plants are

bolting due to the longer day-length, and (if you bought ordinary

"coriander" seeds) they're a variety which has been selected for rapid

and copious production of seeds, at the expense of foliage.



Several seed vendors sell a "slow-bolting" or "leaf" cultivar, which has

been selected for these characteristics.  I raised it last year, and

have a healthy crop of "volunteer" offspring this year.  It is very much

as advertised... it grows a much larger crop of leaves, was slower to

bolt, and even after bolting its leaves seem to be tastier than is true

of the seed-coriander variety.



I've come to believe rather strongly in growing some carrot-family

herbs (of which coriander is one) to encourage the populations of

beneficial insects.  I can usually find a number of ladybugs prowling

around the coriander flowers, and I've seem numerous other insects

supping on the nectar.  Many of the insects are ones I can't recognize,

but I believe that at least some of them are predators on aphids and

other pests... I've had far fewer aphids, etc. on my vegetables than in

previous years.

*****

Cilantro is indeed tricky.  Like basil, it seems to really want to

bolt to seed as soon as it can.  The seeds are also edible and I believe

are actually what we call coriander.  They have a pleasant taste and

can be chewed as a breath freshener or ground up for spice.

Of course, if you really want cilantro,not its seeds, none of the above

is particularly helpful.

*****

Here in hot, dry Colorado, I plant lettuce, cilantro, and basil in

containers.  While the seeds are germinating and the plants are

little, I leave them out in full sun.  When the plants get big enough

to where bolting might become a problem, I move them onto the patio,

up against the north edge of the house, where they get early morning

sun, and then bright light the rest of the day.  We pick from these

plants all the way until fall.

*****

Cilantro (cilantrillo, culantro) is the green leafy stage of coriander, corian-

drum sativum. Coriander, the spice, is cilantro seed, and yes they certainly

do taste different. There are several other species that taste like cilantro,

one is a tender knotweed from Thailand and the other is a succulent that

people grow in Puerto Rico where it is known as cilantro while the annual

coriander is known as cilantrillo.



You can grow cilantillo under lights all year long indoors, seed it in the

winter for a really early spring crop or plant it every 10 days for continuous

cropping in the outdoor garden from earliest spring til mid fall.

*****

|> My experience with cilentro is roughly as follows:

|>

|> -  The dense, low-to-the-ground foliage which grows early in the plant's

|>    lifecycle is wonderful.  Ambrosial.  Delicious.  To die for.

|>

|> -  The thin, lacy foliage which grows along the flower stalk once the

|>    plant begins to bolt tastes terrible... soapy (Lifebuoy, I think) and

|>    utterly unpleasant.

|>

|> A couple of years ago I started growing "leaf cilentro", a cultivar

|> which has been selected for heavy production of the tasty foliage and

|> for a reduced tendency to bolt and go to seed.  This is a much better

|> choice, for cilentro lovers, than simply growing out a bunch of

|> coriander seed from the kitchen spice rack... commercial coriander seed

|> has come from cultivars which have been selected for early bolting and

|> heavy seed production, which is just what you don't want if you're

|> growing coriander.

*****

Now, for what to do with all that leafy cilantro!



			!!!!Salsa!!!!!



(3)*********************************BASIL**************************************

>From what I understand, picking off basil leaves encourages more growth. So

>how do you know when to pick the leaves? Do the leaves have to be a certain

>size before picking?



Pick it when you need it.  I usually pick herbs 10 seconds before they

go into the pot.  Our herb patch is right outside the kitchen door -

an arrangement I highly recommend.

*****

Don't just pick off the leaves! Pinch off the tops of each shoot,

including a pair or two of good-sized leaves at the top of the shoot.

Leave at least one pair of well developed leaves on the shoot (so you

should have at least two decent pairs of leaves on a shoot before you

pinch off the top). From the leaves that are left on the shoot, two

new shoots will generally develop, resulting in twice as many leaves

as from a single shoot. This is why pinching off the tops results in

more leaves.



This is good practice for many plants, including flowering plants. I

have pinched off the tops of lots of mums in my mother's yard. This

results in more flowers in the fall. Additionally, I sometimes stick

the pinched off shoots in a well watered location and they frequently

root themselves into new plants.



I think pinching back and thinning are the two emotionally hardest

things for a beginning gardener to get used to. I still have trouble

pinching back flowers like petunias, where you will always be

destroying some buds. Last Saturday I thinned many annuals which I

started in the ground from seed. I couldn't resist giving the culls a

second chance by scratching up the dirt in our back area, dumping the

culled plants on the disturbed surface and giving them a soaking. It

will be interesting to see if any of them make it. If they don't, it's

no loss.

*****

Let your plant grow to a reasonable size before you pick from it or

prune it: like maybe 6 inches high.  Depends on the variety.  What you

want are the tender young leaves, and you want to pinch back the

growing tip to encourage bushiness, and you want to discourage

flowers.



What I do is grow several plants, twice as many as I think I really

need, and use it every day or so during the first part of the summer.

Then along about the middle of July I chop half the plants right down

to a few inches high, and use those leaves for a batch of basil olive

oil or basil vinegar.  The remaining plants will serve me for daily

use until the cut ones regenerate-- bushier and more tender than ever.

Then cut the other ones, and repeat until frost.



  You have to be careful with that basil olive oil: if you put garlic

  in it too, it has to be refrigerated to forestall botulism.  It gets

  ugly in the 'fridge, but ugly is better than deadly.  This advice

  comes to you courtesy of Gail Perrin, the food editor at the Boston

  Globe, and the USDA.  Your tax dollars at work.

*****

>I planted some basil inbetween my tomatoe plants since it's supposed to

>have some effect on the taste of the tomatoe (make it better of course).



I happen to be watching, oh I can't remember the name of the show... maybe

the Backyard Gardener or something. It comes on Saturday mornings on TNN

(The Nashville Network) at 9:00 AM EST. That's where I first heard it. In

fact my neighbor bought a rather large tomato plant last year and it had

basil planted at its base. At the time I didn't know why.



(4)******************************Scented Geraniums*****************************

>Citrosa is one of the scented pelargoniums (P. graveolens var.) which

>aledgedly had been developed in Holland by "gene-splicing" techniques.

>More probably, it is a cross between P. graveolens and P. citronellum.

>

These plants can repel mosquitoes but the catch is that the leaves must

be crushed to give off the odor to repel the insects.



(5)**************************Stinging nettle seed source************************

Abundant Life Seed Foundation, PO Box 772, Port Townsend, WA 98368,

(206)-385-5660 fax (206)-385-7455.  Urtica dioica seed, $1/packet.



(6)*********************************Drying herbs*******************************

To dry chives, chop the leaves into 3-4 mm lengths with a very sharp

knive or scissors.  Throw out the flower stalks -- they are not edible

(though the flowers are). Then spread out on paper or counter away from sun

or heat.



Other herbs are best dried by stripping leaves from stems and spreading out

to dry as mentioned above.



Don't dry too fast, otherwise you'll lose the aroma and flavour; resist the

temptation to use the oven.  The oven is useful, however, to finish off a

batch of herbs to make sure any lingering moisture is removed before storing.

Set oven at lowest temp, leave door open, and let herbs warm up for 10

minutes only.



Herbs are ready for storage in an airtight container when the leaves become

brittle.  Good quality herbs retain as much of the green colour as possible.

*****

	I have found that dried chives have no taste.  Freezing them in

an old margarine container works quite well and you just take what you want by

scraping the top with a fork.

*****

I think for lavander, thyme and oregano, you can cut the stems and hang them

up side down just like drying flowers.  For rosemary, since it is an

evergreen plant, you can just use it as it is but if you are thinking of using

it as pot porri, you can hang the stems up side down.  For chive, if you want

to dry it for cooking, you can chop them up and dry them in the oven (the

lowest setting) or use ice cube method (I think you put the chopped chives in

the ice cube container and put a little bit of water in it to freeze it).

Mind you, I have never tried this method, that is what the book said!!

*****

For food herbs, why not freeze?  They retain much more of the flavor,

and somehow they are less bitter.  As for drying, Ive tryed

microwave, oven, open air, sun, but what seems to work best is

to leave the herbs on the dashboard of a car parked in the sun.

Makes the car smell interesting as well. :-)

*****

It is better to freeze parsley in small bunches -- sized with as much as

you would use at any one time.  If you prefer to dry, you must dry in

a well-ventilated location out of the sun with *slight* heat (no more than

30 C).  It is good to remove stems first and to chop the leaves *carefully*

(with a minimum of bruising) into smaller pieces, about 5 mm across, using

a super sharp knife.  When crisp, finish off in the oven with door ajar

and temp set at lowest setting, for no more than 10 minutes to remove

lingering traces of moisture which could cause mould.  Store in airtight,

opaque containers kept in a cool location.  Don't keep beyond a year.



Dried product should be green, not yellow or brown, if you have done it

right.

*****

	Here's I've done for the last several years

	with great success:  Cut as much Parsley, Rosemary,

	Thyme, Basil, etc. as you want to dry (stems included).

	Gather a bunch of the stems together and secure with

	a rubber band.  Hang the bundle upside down in the house

	out of direct sunlight and forget about it for several

	weeks.  After the plant is all dried, the leaves just

	crumble off.  I usually crumble the leaves over a cookie

	sheet, toss the stems into the compost, and fill an

	old jar or tupperware container.



	I've also dried many flowers by bunching them and hanging

	them upside down....it's a breeze!



(7)*****************************Some Catalogs**********************************

Although "seed-fever season" is pretty much over, I thought I'd share

some catalog addresses for those interesting in planning for next-years

garden or for summer/fall plantings and 'overwinter' gardening

(possible in mild-winter areas).  Most of these are Pacific Northwest area.



Nichols Garden Nursery

Herbs and Rare Seeds

1190 North Pacific Highway

Albany, Oregon  97321-4598



-Great catalog with interesting varieties, many herb seeds.





Territorial Seed

20 Palmer Ave

POB 157

Cottage Grove, Oregon 97424



-Specializes in 'Maritime Northwest' adapted veggies, probably work

well in most high-altitude or short-season climes.  They have a

special Winter Gardening catalog for cloche and cold-frame year-round

veggie production in mild winter areas.





Shepherd's Garden Seeds

30 Irene Street

Torrington, Connecticut 06790



Many vegetables, oriented towards gourmet cooking, has some recipes in it.





Seeds Blum Heirloom Seeds

Idaho City Stage

Boise, Idaho  83706     Catalog $3.00



A wonderful catalog, fascinating just to read, filled with lore and

recipes and such.  A company dedicated to the preservation of

'old fashioned' and rare veggies.  Some really far-out stuff.



Abundant Life Seed Foundation

PO Box 772

Port Townsend, Washington, 98368



Dedicated to preserving genetic stock of foodcrop seeds.  Has many

informative books too.



(8)************************Horsetail Plant Source*******************************

>I have read that the pioneers called this plant the "scouring rush".  It

>has a silica compound in the outside layer and acts like a very fine abrasive.

>They would gather it and use it for scouring pots, sanding fine woodwork

>surfaces, etc.



	I use dried horsetails in "plant tea". The silica content is

supposed to deter fungal growth and, if sprayed on, provide a small

measure of protection against sucking insects. I use plant tea in the

house as a combination food/insect deterent. I mix together comfrey,

horsetails, nettles, tansy, wormwood and a Thai pepper or too (say, a

spoonful of each herb) and pour in the boiling water (about 6-7 cups).

Soak as long as you like, allow to cool, and water your plants. This is

a good soil drench for black flies and fruit flies in your house plants,

and provides extra minerals, too. Whatever you do, don't *drink* it

though! Not only would it taste terrible, it will make you ill, to say

the least. Oh - sometimes I toss in some dried seaweed, too, usually

dulse.



	Outside, you can use it as the base for a plant spray. Make a

strong solution, then add a spoonful of liquid soap, and a spoonful of

powdered clay (I use the kind sold in health food stores for poultices

and such). SHake very well (even so, it may clog your sprayer) and spray

plants, thoroughly wetting all surfaces. There is a commercial mix you

can buy (from Gardener's Supply in Vermont) called SilKaBen, which is

silica-kaolin-bentonite, basically a mix of clays which form a

protective barrier on the plant when sprayed on. The principle is the

same.



	That's for plants - for people, I'm told that soaking your

fingers in horsetail and nettle tea makes your nails stronger, but mine

are always so trashed it hardly seems worth the effort.



(9)******************************bee balm/bergamot******************************

Bergamot leaves + black tea make a drink which tastes exactly like Earl Grey.

That's what I always thought Earl Grey tea was.



We also make an excellent herbal tea by mixing 2 parts bergamot leaves with

3 parts lemon balm leaves.

*****

The Bergamot used for real Earl Grey tea was actually an aromatic oil from the

Bergamot orange.  Monarda didyma etc are called Bergamot because of their

startling resemblance to the original.  I believe that they are sometimes

called Oswego tea after some American Indians of the same name who used it this

way and no doubt introduced it to early settlers.

*****

If it is monarda, it does attract hummingbirds. We have some planted, and

the birds, bees and butterflies all love it.



(10)*****************************Chamomile**************************************

>RE:  chamomile, aka camomile.  Now I'm really confused on the two

>available varieties:  "German" Chamomile vs. "Roman" Chamomile.

>

Roman chamomile is Anthemis nobilis, a low growing perennial.  This

is the one to use for chamomile lawns.  German chamomile is Matricaria

something-or-other; it's a rather weedy-looking annual.  You can make

tea from the flowers of either, I believe, but those from Matricaria

taste better.

*****

+ Both varieties are used for tea, but in different places.  The Germans use

+ the German variety and consider the Roman variety to be a weed.  The English

+ consider the German variety to be a weed and use the other kind.



I have both varieties: English Chamomile ('Anthemis nobilis') and German

Chamomile ('Matricaria recutita' sp?).  I like Chamomile tea and had the

same problem trying to figure out which one it was that I liked.  Anyway,

I gave up and got both in February of this year.



The English Chamomile is like a ground cover, while the German Chamomile

can get pretty tall (it's about 1 ft tall now, and I've read that they can

get to 2 ft tall).  The German one has a yellow-green color.  While the

English Chamomile is a darker shade of green.  I've read that the English

Chamomile doesn't mind being stepped on, so it can be used between stepping

stones, where it could release its fragrance.



Since I got them in small 2.5" pots, the German Chamomile has quadrupled in

size, while the English Chamomile has doubled.  Both have been repotted, and

both plants smell nice.  (I just moved my English Chamomile since

I discovered that my gardener has been mowing the flowers off!)



To date, I've only tasted the German Chamomile.  It's covered with little

daisy-like flowers, and they are very mild.  The flowering is extremely

prolific, so I can understand where the term 'weed' comes from.  :-)



My guess is that it takes about 4 fresh tablespoons to get the same taste

per cup (as a Celestial Seasonings Chamomile Tea teabag).  Don't worry, I

can cut 4 tablespoons of flowers and still have as much left over from the

same plant.  The taste is almost the same, but I think the fresh one is

more fragrant.



I've heard that English Chamomile has a more tea-like taste (i.e. less

mild), and I'm still waiting to try that one out.  But I'm quite happy with

the German one so far.  It's really soothing for a drink before bed.

Watch out for aphids, though!

*****

>While we are on the subject, I'd also like to ask a question about

>harvesting chamomile.  What do you do about those aphids that are on the

>tiny stems and the flowers?  Is there a way to keep them out of your tea?

    To keep insects out of your chamomile tea: dry flowers, keeping

in whole form as much as possible, and screen out the debris, including

the little dried out insects.

    There is not much more you can do once the insect invasion is fait

accompli.

****

Funny, I havent had any problem with aphids on chamomile (annual type, anyway)

They do like to congregrate on the rose of sharon bushes where the lady bugs

gobble them up.   (distraction?)

Also, perhaps they are repelled by the sage that I have around the chamomile ?

 Anyway, to get rid of any bugs on herbs, I give them

a quick dunk in hot (not boiling) water and then rinse

in cold water.  That seems to get rid of all of them;

I havent had buggy tea in quite a while :-)



(11)***********************************Rue*************************************

>Also, what can I expect from for "rue".  [can you tell I found a bunch of herb

>plants marked down to $.49 at the local nursery!]



Ruta graveolens--a quite lovely perennial, typically with lacy grayish

leaves.  Be warned that it can give some people a rash--you might determine

whether you're sensitive to it before you feature it to heavily in your

garden.



(12)************************** Essential herb oils******************************

>I grow many medicinal herbs and wonder if anyone knows how to distill

>the essential oils from a plant. While most of the medicinal benefits

>of the plants I grow are available by making infusions, decoctions,

>tinctures and poultices, some of the compounds in the plants are only

>found in the plant oils.



If I recall correctly, one way of doing it is with solvent extraction.

You crush the stuff, soak it in some solvent (alcohol, benzene, or

other), then pour off/strain the liquid, then gently boil off or

evaporate the solvent leaving the oil behind.  It's been quite some time since

I helped a classmate do an oil of cloves extraction...  Like almost 20 years.



This isn't exactly low-tech or "green".  Especially with benzene - *nasty*

stuff.

Old chemistry text books from the 40's thru the 50's are most likely

to have exact recipes for extractions from a couple of different

plants.  Then perhaps the Merck index or a specific index of plant oils

will tell you which solvents to use.

*****

	The safest and cleanest method of extraction is with an alembic

still. It's nice if you can buy one (try Edmund's Scientific) but you

can also put one together from pieces of lab equipment or even kitchen

pots. The idea is to simmer the organic matter in water so that the oils

are released in the steam, then trap the steam so that it condenses.

Typically this will yield a more dilute product than a pure essential

oil - what you will usually get are herbal "waters" such as rosewater,

lavender water, etc. The best quality oils are steam distilled but the

apparatus and technique may be beyond the home hobbyist.

*****

 If you are only interested in flavor and scent, the easiest way to extract it

is to soak the flowers or leaves in a light cold pressed olive oil. The oil

will attract the oils from the plant. Use a glass or pottery container, metal

or plastic will discolor the oils. Lay the leaves or flowers in layers in a

shallow dish, use just enough oil to cover the materials.  Let stand in a dark,

cool area for at least 24 hours.  Gently sieve the mixture, pressing the plant

materials gently to extract the (essence?) of the oils.  Add more fresh plant

material to the oil, and repeat the process.  Six times through the process

seems to be the minimum to get a good lasting scent.  Some plants and flowers

need 10-12 times through the process.

 When extracting the oil, remember the 1000 to 1 rule.  It will usually take a

1000 oz. of plant or flower (sometimes more, and it needs to be FRESH, not

dried) to get a ounce of oil.

 You can extract the oil using alcohol as the solvent.  Use undenatured ethel

alcohol (pure grain alcohol aka Everclear) instead of the oil in the process

above.  After the sixth time through the process, you will have a nicly

scented alcohol base (it makes a nice base for perfume, or toilet water).

The base can be either steam distilled or frozen.  Distilling is traditional,

but freezing is much easier.  When freezing the base, use a tall narrow necked

container, and a pipette to collect the oil that rises to the top of the

container as it starts to solidify.  Don't let the oil become solid. The

alcohol doesn't freeze, so be carefully not to disturb it when lifting off the

oil. You can use the alcohol again, but it will retain some oil.

 Almost all herbs can be steam distilled, using water as the base.  Use a very

small still, and remember that the first steam contains more of the oils that

the steam later.  The temperature the water needs to be held at varies

according to the plant, and some herbs "scorch" if the water is too hot.

 It's normally much easier to purchase essential oils, than to make your own

unless you have a very large garden and a lot of time.

*****

> What's the difference between extracted oils and extracted

> tincture. What can you use tinctures for that you can't

> use oils for (and vice-versa)?

>

Simply put, a tincture is an alcohol or vinegar extraction. You basically

steep the herb in alcohol or vinegar for a period of time.



"Essential oils cannot be made easily at home. They are the pure plant oil,

usually extracted by chemicals or hot steam. Hundreds of pounds/kilograms of

fresh plant material may produce only a few ounces/cl of essential oil."

>From _Healing Wise_ by Susun Weed.



This book has excellent descriptions of how to make tinctures, infused

oils and lotions. Since you will probably have to special order it

the isbn 0-9614620-2-7



(13)*******************************Oregano*************************************

>Does anyone out there have experience growing Oregano!....



Yes:  I bought an oregano plant in a 2" pot 4 years ago, and have

giving the stuff away by the pound for the last three years.

The little plant grew to about 12" x 12" the first year and bloomed

nicely - ever since the original plant gets over 24" tall and about

30" around, and I have oregano coming up in every bare spot in the

area - it doesn't come up in the lawn.  The original plant was

getting kind of ragged looking this year so I divided it - just

chopped out a section with a shovel and gave it away.  Both plants

thrived.

*****

  After it gets established here I don't think I could kill oregano if I tried.

  BTW - this is borderline zone 5/zone 4,  it is planted in 3/4 sun

  we get good water in the spring, but very dry summer

  the oregano gets watered in summer with other herbs and flowers

  but stands drought very well

*****

I have seen several different types of "oregano", don't know if

they were different varieties or different species or what.

I haven't tried any others - I have plenty...

*****

I just read in Rhodales Encyclopedia of Herbs, that oregano is

usually tasteless, and that you really need to get cuttings from

a plant with good taste to ensure that you get a good crop.

*****

The fresh, succulent growth you get in the spring is low in the oils

that give these herbs their flavour.  Once the weather gets hotter and

drier, and the foliage gets older and tougher, it will have more flavour.



(14)********************** Grilling with herbs ********************************

This weekend we grilled a small flank steak with no previous

prep.  After lightly browning each side, placed a small hand

full of w. savory on the coals directly under the steak, and

closed the lid for 2 +/- mins., repeat for the other side.

The smokey/herby flavor is OUTSTANDING.



We have also used Thyme and rosemary on chicken, pork, lamb and

beef.  If you don't have a cover for the grill you will need to

use a little more herb, but it works.



(15)****************************Herb names**************************************



Hypericum perforatum - St. John's wort. The herb and fruit are sometimes

used as a tea. Flowers can be used for making mead. Eurasia.



Prunella vulgaris - Self-heal, All-heal. A refreshing beverage can be

made by soaking the leaves, either freshly chopped or dried and

powdered, in cold water. Young shoots and leaves are eaten raw in

salads, cooked with other greens as a potherb, or added to soups and

stews. Eurasia, naturalized in N. America.



Stachys officinalis - Betony, Bishop's wort. An infusion of the leaves

and flowering tops makes a refreshing, aromatic beverage. Europe.



>High Joan the Conqueress (or John the Conqueror) root(money)

>broom tops                                           (protection)



Broomcorn for making brooms? Panicum miliaceum, Sorghum bicolor ...



Centella asiatica - Gotu-kola, Indian pennywort. The leaves are eaten

raw in tossed salads, steamed and served with rice, or cooked in

vegetable soups and stews. In Thailand the juice of the leaves is used

as a refershing drink. A tea made from the leaves, called long-life tea,

was regularly consumed by Professor Li Chung Yon, who reputedly lived

265 years and married 24 times. Warmer regions of the Old World.



>The associations of the author of the book are listed to the right,

>though I doubt that they will help. What I need, is some kind of other

>identification, either another common name, or a systematic (latin)

>name. The above common names are verbatim quotes.

>The source of the names is Starhawk's _The_Spiral_Dance_. One last

>question, are bay laurel and laurel the same plant?



Lauraceae - Juss. Laurel Family. Dicot.; about 47 genera and 2,000-2,500

spp. of trees and shrubs, often aromatic, native mainly to trop. and

subtrop. regions ... Among other economic products, members of the

family yield camphor (Cinnamomum camphora), cassia (C. cassia), cinnamon

(C. zeylanicum), the avocado (Persea americana), and important timbers

(Aniba, Nectandra, etc.).



So, many plants are called laurels, in fact some aren't even members of

the family. THE Greco/Roman laurel is Laurus nobilis, aka laurel, bay

laurel, sweet bay, the leaf used to make spaghetti sauce. The California

laurel is Umbellularia californica, aka laurel, bay laurel, Oregon

Myrtle, the leaf used to make spaghetti sauce.



Ref: Cornucopia, A Source Book of Edible Plants, Stephen Facciola,

Kampong Publications, Vista, CA, ISBN: 0-9628087-0-9

Hortus III, Macmillan Publishing, NY, Collier Macmillan Publishing, London



(16)***************************** Digging out ingrown herbs*********************

> -  How the HECK do I get those old herbs out?  They are REALLY dug in,

> not to mention all inter-grown to each other.

> -  What kind of dividers do you recommend?  Redwood?  Cedar?  How deep do

> they have to go?

> -  Any no-no's as far as one herb living next door to another?

> -  Are herbs hard on the soil - do I need to do something once I start

> with a clean slate again?

> -  Is there any way to "save" and transplant parts of the existing tangle?



Which herbs did you plant? Most can take some root damage without any

problem --- especially the ones that have been spreading so well. If you

want to dispose of certain herbs completely, it may be difficult to get all

of it out but digging is the only solution. I stupidly planted lemon balm

in a small herb border, between some thyme plants, & had to be really

merciless about digging it all out. I'm sure I'll see some sprouts in the

spring, but they'll be alot easier to dig out than the original

plant-from-hell. The neighboring thyme plants didnt seem hurt at all. So

just get in there and hack away! You're in a much different zone, so I

don't know when is the best time to prune or transplant --- check with the

local cooperative extension, or maybe another CA resident on rec.gardens.



DON'T plant anything from the mint family (including lemon balm) in a bed

shared with other plants. In fact, put it somewhere in lousy soil, far from

your garden, & HOPE that keeps it in check. I tried the trick of planting

it in a 5-gal. plastic tub with the bottom cut out, buried up to the top

inch or so, and the darn stuff still got out & infected nearby beds. So I'm

not convinced that dividers work with that stuff. The only other pesky herb

I've planted was borage, which self seeds readily and keeps popping up in

the oddest places (nowhere near its original site). But it has pretty

flowers, & is a magnet for cabbage & tomato caterpillars (which can then be

destroyed), so it's not really a nuisance. Maybe you should consider pots?

especially if you're not going to be around to keep the vigorous growers

cut back & out of each other's space.



In general, herbs don't need special treatment, and you shouldn't need to

do anything special to your soil. Some (like tarragon & rosemary) prefer

good drainage, so if your soil is very heavy/clayey, mix in some sand &

organic material. Most books say NOT to fertilize, at least not before

you're going to pick the plants (otherwise your thyme might taste like fish

emulsion, yecch).



(17)********************************Purslane**********************************

>I appreciate if somebody could answer this. What is purslane, which part

>is edible, how do you fix it, and does it have other names (in other

>languages, if you knew them). Is it American native or not.



It's good. Many people are convinced it's a weed, but what do they know.

It self-sows easily if some of the plant is allowed to grow instead of

being harvested.



Cornucopia, Stephen Facciola, Kampong Pubs, Vista, CA, 1990, ISBN:0-9628087-0-9:



Portulaca oleracea - Purslane, Pusley, Verdolaga. Succulent leaves and

stems are eaten raw in salads, pickled, stir-fried, sauteed, added to

capers or olives, or used in caseroles, stews, omelettes, sandwiches,

fritters, etc. Their mucilaginous texture makes them a good substitute

for okra in gumbo and other creole dishes. To preserve the plant for

winter use put it into salt and dry white wine. The seeds are ground for

use in gruels, cakes, breads, and panckaes. Sprouted seeds are eaten in

salads. Ash of the burnt plant is used as a substitute for salt.

Eurasia, cultived.



Cultivars:



Golden: (Goldgelber, Pourpier Dore) Large leaves and stalks with a pale

green or yellowish cast that constrasts well with the red stems. Much

more upright than regular green cultivated purslane. Grown and used in

the same manner. When cooked, the leaves do not differ very much in

color from those of the green purslane. C53,E83T,J7,J82,K2,N84, ...



Multi-Branch: Bushy plant, 12 inches tall and 12 or more inches wide.

Produces numerous branches that grow out at an angle, and bend down to

the ground somewhat under their own weight. Light to dark green leaves.

Grayish-green, pink or yellowish-green stems with good texture and

flavor. E83T



E83T: Greenleaf Seeds, POBox 98, Conway, MA 01341, (413) 628-4750, CAT FREE



(18)************************** insect repelling plants*************************

Citrosa is one of the scented pelargoniums (P. graveolens var.) which

aledgedly had been developed in Holland by "gene-splicing" techniques.

More probably, it is a cross between P. graveolens and P. citronellum.



There is a lot of misinformation out there about this plant, not the

least of which is the claim that the plant is patented.



Does it repel mosquitoes?  No one has published controlled studies, as

far as I know.  We have had some limited feedback, and no negative

feedback as yet.

*****

Antsie Tansies.  Tansies are supposed to repel ants.  Not my ants.

They just love them.  They limb right up and dig their little

torsos deep into the the yellow flowers.  I had planted tansy by

the berry bushes and where the ants were.  This year I pulled out

most of them.  But their are many little ones growing all over.

The tansy pest may be worse than the ant pest :-)

*****

Wormwood is sometimes grown to repel aphids, but mine is black with the beasts

this year. It may be useful as a trap crop for them.

*****

I've made a smudge for camping of rue, pennyroyal and wormwood, mixed with

shavings from candles. Place this in a flat container with sides, and light.

It smokes and smoulders, and keeps mosquitos away from your table with a

pleasant, pungent scent.

*****

Dill and parsley can be used as a trap crop for caterpillars.

*****

Having wintered over a variety of herbs and other plants in my little

greenhouse, I have become familiar with the dietary habits of whitefly and

aphids.  As far as the herbs were concerned their very favourite munchies were

Lemon Verbena and Pineapple Sage.  The whiteflies also rather liked Fenugreek,

but the aphids preferred the Swan River Daisies. Both of these bugs really do

seem to have a "sweet tooth".  I haven't tried it, but I can't see why this

preference couldn't be put to good advantage in the garden...your idea of

using Pineapple Sage as a trap crop is certainly worth a try.



(19)*************************** Herbs A - Z ***********************************



It's been a while since I've posted anything of interest.  Well, here is

a list of all lists:  The Common names of herbs, with thier scientific

names.  I am a very exacting gardener.  I like to know exactly what

plant I am growing, and it bothers me to no end when I find plants

labeled with their common names only.  I hope this list will help you

out at the garden nursery, and when mail ordering.



Allium amelophrasum. . . . . . . . . . . . . Leek, wild in Europe

Allium ascalonicum . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .shallot

Allium cepa. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .onion

Allium porrum. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . leek, cultivated

Allium sativum . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . garlic

Allium schoenoprasum . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . chives

Allium tricoccum . . . . . . . . . . . . . .leek, wild in America

Alpinia galanga. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . galangal

Angelica archangelica officinalis. . . . . . . . . . . . angelica

Angelica atropupurea . . . . . . . . . . . . . angelica, American

Anethum graveolens . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . dill

Anthemis nobilis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .camomile, Roman

Anthriscus cerefolium. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .chervil

Apium graveolens . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . celery

Artemisia dracunculus. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .French tarragon

Asperula odorata . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . sweet woodruff



Barbarea verna . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Belle Isle cress

Borago officnallis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . borage

Brassica sinapis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .mustard

Brassica sinapis alba. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .white mustard

Brassica sinapis nigra . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .black mustard



Calendula officinalis. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . marigold

Capsicum annuum linn . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . paprika pepper

Capsicum baccatum linn . . . . . . . . . . . . . . cayenne pepper

Capsicum frutescens linn . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . red pepper

Carthamus tinctorius linn. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .safflower

Caryphyllus aromaticus linn. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .clove

Chile ancho var. acuminatum. . . . . . . . . . . . .Mexican chili

Chrysanthemum balsamita. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . costmary

Cinnamomum burmanni blume. . . . . . . . . . . . .cassia, batavia

Cinnamomum cassia blume. . . . . . . . . . . . . Chinese cinnamon

Cinnamomum loureirii nees. . . . . . . . . . . . .French cinnamon

Cinnamomum zeylaicum nees. . . . . . . . . . . . . .true cinnamon

Coriandrum sativum . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .coriander

Crocus sativus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .saffron

Cuminum cyminum. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .cumin

Curcuma longa linn . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .tumeric

Curcuma zedoaria . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . zedonary



Foeniculum vulgare . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .wild fennel

Foeniculum vulgare var. dulce. . . . . . . . . . . . sweet fennel



Hyssopus alba. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . white hyssop

Hyssopus officinalis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . hyssop

Hyssopus rubra . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .pink hyssop



Illicium verum . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . star anise



Juniperus comminis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . wild juniper



Laurus nobilis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .sweet bay, laurel

Lavandula spica. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . spike lavender

Lavandula stoechas . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .French lavender

Lavandula vera . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . English lavender

Lepidium sativum . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . land cress

Levisticum officinale. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . lovage

Lippia citriodora. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .lemon verbena



Marrubium vulgare. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .horehound

Matricaria chamomilla. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .German camomile

Melissa officinalis. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . lemon balm

Mentha citrata . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .orange mint

Mentha gentilis variegata. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . apple mint

Mentha piperita. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . peppermint

Mentha piperita var. vulgaris. . . . . . . . . . black peppermint

Mentha rotundifolia. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . apple mint

Mentha spicata . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .spearmint

Mentha spicata var. crispata . . . . . . . . . . . . . curly mint

Monarda citriodora . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . lemon bergamot

Monarda didyma . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . red bergamot

Monarda fistulosa. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .wild bergamot

Myristica agentiea warb. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . mace

Myristica fragrans houtt . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . nutmeg

Myristica malabrica lam. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .wild mace

Nepeta cataria . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . catnip

Nigella sativa . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .black cumin



Ocimum basilicum . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .sweet basil

Ocimum basilicum santum. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . holy basil

Ocimum citriodora. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .lemon basil

Ocimum crispum . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Italian basil

          Ocimum minimum . . . . . .dwarf basil (green or purple)

Origanum marjorana linn. . . . . . . . . . . . . . sweet marjorum

Origanum onites. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . pot marjorum

Origanum vulgare . . . . . .wild marjorum (often sold as oregano)



Papaver rhoeas . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .poppy

Papaver somniferum . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .opium poppy

Pelargonium capitalum. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .rose geranium

Pelargonium graveolens . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .rose geranium

Petroselinum hortense. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .parsley

Petroselinum hortense var. crispum . . . . . . . . .curly parsley

Petroselinum hortense var. filicinum . . . . .fern-leaved parsley

Pimenta karst. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . allspice

Pimenta officnalis linn. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . allspice

Pimpinella saxifraga linn. . . . . . . . . . . . .European burnet

Piper nigrum linn. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . black pepper



Radicula armoracia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .horseradish

Rorippa armoracia. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .horseradish

Rosa damascena . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .damask rose

Rosa gallica . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .rose de Provins

Rosa chinensis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . China rose

Rosa rugosa. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .rugosa rose

Rosmarinus officinalis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . rosemary

Rumex acetosa. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .garden sorrel

Rumex scutatus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .French sorrel

Ruta graveolens. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .rue



Salvia horminum. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .garden sage

Salvia officinalis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .garden sage

Salvia officinalis alba. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . white sage

Salvia pratensis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .meadow sage

Salvia sclarea . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . clary sage

Salvia splendens . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . pineapple sage

Sanguisorba minor. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . salad burnet

Sanguisorba officinalis. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . great burnet

Satureia hortensis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .summer savory

Satureia montana . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .winter savory

Sesamum indicum. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . sesame

Sesamum orientale. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .bene sesame

Sisymbrium nasturtium aquaticum. . . . . . . . . . . .water cress



Tanacetum vulgare. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . common tansy

Tanacetum vulgare var. cruspum . . . . . . . . .fern-leaved tansy

Thymus serphyllum. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . wild thyme



Thymus serphyllum albus. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .white thyme

Thymus serphyllum cocineus . . . . . . . . trailing scarlet thyme

Thymus serphyllum lanuginosus. . . . . . . . . . . . .wooly thyme

Thymus serphyllum var. citriodorus . . . . . . . . . .lemon thyme

Thymus vulgaris. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .English thyme

Tropaolum majus. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . nasturtium



Umbellularia californica . . . . . . . . . . . . . California bay



Valerianell lacustra . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . salad corn

Verbena hastata. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . American vervain

Verbena officinalis. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . European Vervain



Zingiber officinale roscoe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ginger

*****

I also specialized in and collected salvias and believe you have

incorrect information



Salvia splendens is usually called Scarlet Sage (Annual)



Pineapple sage has a distinct pineapply odor to the leaves and is

generally referred to as Salvia elegans, also S. gracilistyla or S.

rutalans. It is perennial.



Others:

Salvia leucantha MEXICAN BUSH SAGE

Salvia greggii AUTUMN SAGE

Salvia sonomensis SONOMA CREEPING SAGE



I was really upset to see a plant in a nursery labeled Salvia

greggii, whem it was really Salvia microphylla.  It even was the

selection with the varigated stems.  I pointed it out to the nursery

manager and he said it is now being called greggii in the trade.  I

can see why as it is a more ornmental shurb than greggii, but the

flowers are very similiar.  Salvia microphylla is native to Mexico

and Salvia greggii is native to texas and Arizona



(20)******************Poisonous/Dangerous Herbs*********************************

Please be sure to mention somewhere that many herbs are poisonous, even in

supposedly medicinal amounts.



I just read a report in today's or yesterday's Boston Globe about 7

Europeans (I forget the nationality) who developed hepatitus from taking

Germander in some herbal diet plan.  When they ceased taking the herb, they

recovered.



Much as I revile homeopathy as fraudulent, homeopathic herbal remedies are

not likely to be toxic because of the extreme dilution.

*****

>>I have had very good luck repelling Japanese Beetles with Rue. My Rue

>>plant is quite large - about 3 feet tall. I have never see a Japanese

>>Beetle within 15' of the thing, although my neighbors have the little pests.

>>Rue is also supposed to be good as a tea, but I have never tried it.

>

>Please be careful with rue if you are pregnant or trying to get

>pregnant.  It is said to be able to cause miscarriage.  My local

>plant store even has a sign warning pregnant women not to handle

>it.  I don't know if they are being alarmist or not.  It is very

>hard to get true information about herbs and fertility because

>of the whole abortion thing, I think.



My wife had a horrific blistering rash from handling rue last year when

she yanked out an overgrown 7' tall rue bush.  She was on steroids for

a while and has permanent scars from the blisters.  Rue does not

generally have a reputation for being poisonous.  Use caution.  She

does rue her lack thereof.

*****

>|> Now that it is brought up.  There was a drink (that hemingway wrote of

>|> in france) that was made from anise (anisette?).  Somewhere I remeber

>|> that is was banned due to intoxication effects or other.

>|> Any other info?



\subsection*{Wormwood}

{\it Artemisia absinthium} or Roman Wormwood ({\it A. pontica}), a perennial

that yields a bitter, dark-green oil which is a flavoring component of absinthe.

This plant has branched, firm, leafy stems that are almost woody at the base

and reach a height of two to three feet.  Its flowers are tiny, greenish-yellow

and globular, and its indented leaves have a silvery-grey sheen.

Contains thujone, a convulsant stimulant related to camphor.  Because thujone

stuns roundworms, wormwood got its name from its use as an antihelmintic, a

use for which it has been known since Pliny's {\it Historia Naturalis}.

Its use as a narcotic, however, dates from modern times, and it is extremely

habit-forming.   Also contains absinthin (a dimeric guianolide that is

responsible for the bitter taste), and

anabsinthin.  May cause GI disturbances, nervousness, stupor and convulsions

in excessively large doses \footnote {Absinthe, William Niels Arnold,

Scientific American: June 1989.}.



Modern absinthe is flavored with anise, and offers no

other advantages over any other 40\% solution of alcohol.  See {\it camphor}

(21)*************************To flower, or not to flower************************

In general, annual herbs such as Basil, which are grown for their leaves,

will stop growing and die after flowering, and the flowers should be removed

by pinching, to prolong leaf production. Herbs which are grown for their

seeds, such as dill, coriander, etc, are allowed to flower. Perennial herbs

such as oregano which are grown for their leaves are allowed to flower,

but there are specific times when the leaves should be harvested, either

before flowering or after, for optimum essential oil content.



(22)***************************Pruning woody herbs****************************

my key observation about herbs (the "little woodies") is that

they should be chopped, nearly down to the ground, every winter.

this applies to stuff like thyme, oregano, sage - not to large

woodies like rosemary, or slow growers like lavender.



almost any perennial herb can tolerate chopping back, and most

are improved by it whether used mainly for cooking or appearance.



(23)**************************Groundcover herbs********************************

Every year I try a new herb in the garden or landscape. If I find it useful

or beautiful I keep it, if not, out it goes. Some of the ground cover herbs

I have kept include:



Roman Chamomile - Very short, sometimes used as a grass substitute. Has pretty

little white flowers that smell heavenly. You can use them in potpourri or

as a tonic tea. Tastes awful! But this likes sun. Very invasive plant, but

easy to pull out.



Corsican Mint - Again, very short, can grow in dense shade. It has very

tiny round leaves and a small purple flower. Also smells nice when you trod

on it. Great between stepping stones. Not recommended for tea. Too pungent.

Also, very invasive and likes water.



Mother of Thyme -  A very short prostrate thyme with beautiful long lasting

purple flowers. Not as flavorful as garden thyme.



Wooly Thyme - Pretty greenish gray color, only grows about 2-3" high. Not

good for between stepping stones, tends to grow over the top of them.

Not a culinary thyme.



Lemon Thyme - Beautiful green/yellow varigated leaves. Grows about 3-4"

high. This is an herb I use for just about anything you want to give a

fresh lemony taste to; fish, chicken, tea etc. Likes sun.



Any mint - Wintermint, peppermint, spearmint, apple mint can be grown in

shade. They don't have to be allowed to grow tall either, pruning has no

detrimental effect on them. You could keep them cut down to about 5" if

you wanted to.



Prostrate Artemisias - Artemisias are feathery leaved, usually silver or

light green plants that can be used for potpourris, teas etc. Some types

of artemisia include Southernwood, Wormwood, and Silver Mound. Make sure

the variety you are buying are prostrate. Non-prostrate varieties can get

up to 4' tall. I grow artemisia in a semi-shaded spot, although they

are suppose to be sun-lovers. They seem to grow okay in semi-shade.

*****

|I'm searching for nice big rocks to use as stepping stones, and I'd like a

|nice, short variety of thyme to use in between the stones.  I don't have to

|use thyme, but I'd like to use something interesting and for some reason I

|picked thyme as my first choice.  The top choice right now is woolly thyme,

|but if anyone has any other suggestions please let me know.



How about chamomile?  I understand that in England they sometimes love

to grow beds of chamomile instead of grass.  When you walk on it you

are re seeding it and causing a rich sweet aroma to come up.

*****

I'm testing out various creeping thymes (T. praecox arcticus varieties,

mostly) in pockets between flagstones in my garden (Maryland, zone 7); all

except one came from Well Sweep Herb farm, which offers a bewildering range

of choices (fun to pick from but bad for the budget). So far the "alba"

kind did OK, but a red creeping thyme of the T. pulegoides (??) type died

rather quickly so i'm not buying more of those. A locally purchased woolly

thyme seems to be doing well, so far, so i just ordered a variant of that

plus a couple others that sounded intriguing. So in a year or so i can give

a better assessment of which ones work for me. There's a range of flower

colors, leaf shapes, and foliage color/texture, and they do smell nice, so

i'm quite happy to stick to the thyme family for now. Besides, they are

quite hardy, which should be important to someone in your climate!

(24)****************************Sages******************************************

>I bought a "honeydew melon sage" herb plant a few weeks >ago. It smells

>great and, to my surprise, it has now broken out in hundreds of tiny

>crimson flowers.  On my last trip to the nursery, I ran across a "pinapple

>sage" plant, and I bought it as well.

>Besides these two plants and, of course, ordinary sage, are there any other

>unusual varieties of this herb that I might collect? Just curious.



Would you happen to know what the botanical name of that "honeydow melon

sage" was?  As you will see from the following, there are loads of different

sages. Here is the list that I have managed to cobble together so far but I

know that it isn't complete...



Ordinary sage/Garden Sage (Salvia officinalis)

Sage, African (Salvia aethiopis)

Sage, Apple-Bearing (Salvia pomifera)

Sage, Arizona Creeping (Salvia arizonica)

Sage, Autumn (Salvia greggi)

Sage, Balsamic (Salvia grandiflora)

Sage, Black (Salvia mellifera)

Sage, Blue (Salvia clevelandii)

Sage, Candelabrum (Salvia candelabrum)

Sage, Cardinal(Salvia fulgens)

Sage, Ceder(Salvia roemeriana)

Sage, Central American (Salvia Cacaliaefolia)

Sage, Chia (Salvia hispanica)

Sage, Clary(Salvia pratensis)

Sage, Clary(Salvia sclarea)

Sage, Clary, Wild English (Salvia verbenaca)

Sage, Whorled Clary (Salvia verticillata)

Sage, Cleveland (See Sage, Blue)

Sage, Creeping(Salvia repens repens)

Sage, Dwarf (Salvia officinalis nana)

Sage, Eastern European (Salvia forskahlei)

Sage, Forsythia (Salvia madrensis)

Sage, Fruit(Salvia dorisiana)

Sage, Gentian (Salvia patens)

Sage, Greek (Salvia fruticosa)

Sage, Indian (Common name for Boneset-Eupatorium perfoliatum)

Sage, Lyreleaf (Salvia lyrata)

Sage, Mexican (Salvia blepharophylla)

Sage, Mexican Bush (Salvia leucantha)

Sage, Mexican Hallucinogenic(Salvia divinorum)

Sage, Mexican Red (See Sage, Cardinal)

Sage, Peruvian (Salvia discolor)

Sage, Painted (Salvia viridis)

Sage, Pineapple(Salvia elegans)

Sage, Pitcher (Salvia spathacea)

Sage, Purple (Salvia officinalis purpurascens)

Sage, Roseleaf (Salvia involucrata)

Sage, Scarlet (Salvia coccinea)

Sage, Silver Clary (Salvia argentea)

Sage, Superba (Salvia superba)

Sage, Tarahumara Chia (Salvia tiliaefolia)

Sage, Thistle (Salvia carduacea)

Sage, Transylvanica (Salvia transylvanica)

Sage, Tricolor (Salvia viridis)

Sage, Tropical (See Sage, Scarlet)

Sage, Wild Blue (Salvia azurea)

Sage, Winter Blooming (Salvia uglinosa)

Sage, Wood (Common name for Sage-leaved Germander-Teucrium scorodonia)

Sage, Yellow (Salvia glutinosa)



If you decide to collect sages, you will be busy for a long time.

Incidently, that pineapple sage you bought is incredibly easy to root from

cuttings -not true of ordinary garden sage at all.  The down side is that

whitefly and aphids absolutely love it.  Have fun.

*****

More on sages:

Salvia involucrata -no common name, beautful fuzzy pink flowers

Salvia guaranitica Nutmeg Sage Blue

Salvia canariensis tall, with purple and mauve flowers

Salvia microphylla-red

Salvia chaemadroides pale blue flowers

Salvia cardinalis fuzzy red flowers

All of the above and many on the previous list are excellent plants

for hummingbirds-the flowers have lots of nectar.

Salvia sonomensis Sonoma Creeping Sage

*****

My favorite sage is *Salvia dorisiana*.  It has big velvety leaves that smell

STRONGLY like fruit salad.  Maybe this is the same as your "honeydow melon

sage".



*Salvia clevelandii* is known for retaining its scent even years after it

has been dried, but to me it smells pretty much like ordinary sage, but

a little stronger.  It might okay be okay in a wreath in the kitchen.



Pineapple sage also has scarlet blossoms.

*****

>My sage appears to be about to flower.  I planted it two years ago, and

>this is the first time I have seen buds on it (one large reddish bud at

>the top of each stem).  Should I pinch them off, or allow them to flower?

>(This is just ordinary garden sage, Salvia Something-or-other.)



Ordinary garden sage is Salvia officinalis.  My books suggest harvesting the

leaves before the plant flowers, but quite frankly I have grown the stuff for

years and never noticed that the timing made all that much different to the

strength of the leaves.  I just pick them when I want them.  As for flowers,

you are in for a treat.  I would grow this sage just for the flowers even if

I never used the leaves.  Right now my sage is also about to flower.  I have

it planted in a bed where it is next to a big clump of Snow-in-Summer

(Cerastium) and those purple sage blossoms above the white is lovely.  I do

dead-head the sage after flowering and give it a bit of a prune just to shape

it.

*****

Salvia officinalis.



If you're growing it for harvest, spring is the time to harvest--the

essential oils in most herbs are strongest just before they flower.

(A two-year-old plant may not provide much to harvest, though).



I let my sage bushes flower.  They have beautiful blue spikes

which are attractive to bees.  I prune them back firmly after

they've flowered, and the branches put out new growth pretty

quickly over the summer.



(25)**************************** Tarragon ************************************

>I am growing tarragon and it has no flavor at all like what I can buy fresh in

>my grocery store.  Is there something I must do special in cultivating this?



There are two types of tarragon.  One, which can be grown from seed, is

sometimes called "Russian tarragon", doesn't have much flavour, and is

probably what you've got.  The other kind is called "French tarragon"

(or "true French tarragon").  It doesn't bloom and is propagated vegetatively.



If you like the stuff you get at your grocery store, you can try rooting

some of it to get your own plants.

*****

There are several varieties plant sold as tarragon. From what I've heard,

the Russian tarragon has little or no flavor, but the French tarragon is

the one to use. Less than reputable nurseries tend to sell the former.

Perhaps it's easier to propagate.

*****

The flavour of Russion Tarragon is different from French Tarragon.  French

Tarragon is stronger and has a slight Anise (liqourice) flavour that Russian

Tarragon lacks.  If you want to use Tarragon in the kitchen you want the

French variety.  The way you check a specific plant is to rub a leaf and then

smell your fingers.  If you don't catch that Anise scent it probably isn't

French Tarragon.

As for the difficulty of growing the French variety from seed, I have also

heard this, but have no personal experience on the subject.  Certainly all my

herb books suggest increasing your supply by cuttings or root division.  I

have tried both of these methods and find that taking root divisions in

either spring or fall is the easiest.



>I have sprouting a tarragon which was labled "Armetisia dracanculus".

>Does anyone know what common names are associated with this Latin >name, or

what Latin names belong to different Tarragons?



Russian and French Tarragons are the same genus, same species but different

cultivars.  In other words they are both "Artemisia dracunculus" and the

difference happens at the cultivar level:



Tarragon, French            Artemisia dracunculus sativa

Tarragon, Russian    Artemisia dracunculus inodora



You may also run across something called "Mexican Tarragon", but this really

isn't a Tarragon at all.  It is just a common name for "Sweet Mace" (Tagetes

lucinda).

*****

Sweet Mace, that's a great name for it.  I had a tagetes for about 2

years.  It was supposed to bloom throughout the year and be very

drought tolerant.  Well, it was drought tolerant, but it hardly ever

bloomed.  It was a very floppy plant about 4 feet tall (if it ever

stood upright).  Anyway, you could always smell the plant whenever you

were in the front yard.  This must be one of those scents that smells

differently to some people.  Some people loved the fragrance.  I hated

it.  It reminded me of the taste (The smell was so intense I could

taste it.) of the stuff the dentist uses to numb your gum right before

a shot.  I finally pulled it.

*****

French Tarragon (Artemisia dracunculus sativa): Tarragon likes full sun,

average soil is fine.  The real key to keeping Tarragon thriving is to make

sure that it is in very well drained soil.  This herb

can stand a fair amount of cold weather, but it will not stand the

combination of cold and wet feet.  Once I had discovered the importance of

good drainage my plants ceased to have any problem

with even quite severe winters in our area.  Tarragon is easy to propagate by

division, so it is worth dividing your clump and planting out a few in

different areas just to see where it will grow best.  Tarragon will die away

to ground level in the winter but it should pop up again in early spring.  I

usually stake my tarragon as it grows to about three feet and has a tendency

to be floppy.

(26)***************************** Herb journal list ***************************

American Herb Association - Qtrly. newsletter

American Herb Assn.

14648 Pear Tree Lane

Nevada City, CA  95959

(916)626-5046

Information on the many uses of herbs.

Quarterly, individual subscriptions $20.00



American Journal of Chinese Medicine

Institute for Advanced Research in Asian Science & Medicine

Box 124

450 Clarkson Ave.

Brooklyn, NY  11203

Tel # (718)270-1629

Basic scientific and clinical research in indigenous medical

techniques, theraputic procedures, medicinal plants, medical

theories and concepts.

Quarterly, Individual subscription, $50.00



Coltsfoot

Route 1

Box 313A

Shipman, VA  22971

(804)263-4817

In appreciation of wild plants with focus on reader

contributions.

Bimonthly, individual subscriptions, $10.00





Herb Companion

Interweave Press, Inc.

201 E. Fourth St.

Loveland, CO  80537

(303)669-7672

Addresses the varied interests of herb enthusiasts, from

horticulture and history to cooking and crafting.  In-depth

articles, recipes, and craft how-to's are enhanced with full

color photography.

Bimonthly, Individual subscriptions $21.00



Herb Quarterly

Long Mountain Press, Inc.

1271 Kuhn Rd.

Boiling Springs, PA  17007

(717)245-2764

A magazine for herb enthusiasts covering all aspects of herbuses.  Turn fennel

into a face mask, use ginger in a cold remedy,cold violets into an ome

Quarterly, Individual subscriptions $24.00



Herbal Connection

Herb Growing and Marketing Network

3343 Nolt Rd.

Lancaster, PA  17601

(717)898-3017

Trade journal for herb businesses and for serious hobbyists.

Growing, marketing, medicinal uses, book reviews, calendar of

events.

Bimonthly, individual subscriptions $24.00



Herbal Green Pages

Herb Growing and Marketing Network

3343 Nolt Rd.

Lancaster, PA  17601

(717)898-3017

Directory of Herb industry, including manufacturers, retailers,wholesalers,

associations, periodicals and educational programs.

Annual.  Individual subscriptions $15.00



(Second reference for Herbal Green Pages - more recent than first)

Herbal Green Pages

The editor is Maureen Rogers. Published by: Herb Growing & Marketing Network

POB 245, Silver Spring, PA (yes, PA not MD) 17575-0245; phone & fax 717-393-3295



Herbarist

Herb Society of America, Inc.

2 Independence Ct.

Vineyard House

Kirtland, OH  44094

(617)371-1486

To further the knowledge of useful plants, notably herbs.

Annual, individual subscriptions $5.00



New England Wild Flower Society Newsletter

(Wild Flower Notes)

New England Wild Flower Society

Garden in the Woods

Hemenway Rd.

Framingham, MA  01701

(508)877-7630

Contains information about native plants, botany, conservation,

horticulture.

Annual, individual subscriptions, $30.00



North American Flora

New York Botanical Garden

Scientific Publications Dept.

Bronx, NY  10458

(212)220-8721

Monographic treatment of plants native to North America.

(unsure of frequency or price)



Organic Gardening

Rodale Press

33 E. Minor

Emmaus, PA  18098

(215)967-3144

A handbook on how to grow food, flowers and landscaping with

great success, without chemicals.

Monthly, Individual subscriptions, $25.00.



Organic World

Lott Publishing Co

Box 710

Santa Monica, CA  90406

(213)397-4217

Covers the news of organic gardening.

Quarterly, Individual subscription $15.00.



Over the Garden Fence

Box 386

Lake Dallas, TX  75065  (this may be just a misprint and it's

really just Dallas, TX)

(817)497-4634

Organic gardening, natural foods, dairy goats, herbs.

Bimonthly, individual subscriptions, $10.00



The Palmetto

Florida Native Plant Society

Box 680008

Orlando, FL  32868

(305)647-8839

Articles on florida's native plants and habitats.

Quarterly, individual subscriptions $20.00



Seed Savers Exchange

(True Seed Exhange)

Kent Whealy

RR3

Box 239

Decorah, IA  52101

(319) 382-5990

A grass-roots genetic preservation project whose members worktogether to save

our vanishing vegetable heritage.

(not sure of the frequency of issue)

individual subscriptions $25.00



Western Canadian Society for Horticulture Report of Proceedingsof Annual

Meetings

University of Saskatchewan

272 Administration Bldg.

Saskatoon, SK S7N OWO

Canada

(403)422-1789

Papers on horticulture topics; councils and reports.

annual, $10.00 a copy



Wildflower

Canadian Wildflower Society

90 Wolfrey Ave.

Toronto, ON  M4K 1K8

Canada

(416)466-6428

Dedicated to the study, conservation and cultivation of North

America's wild flora; includes material from Central America

and coast to coast.  The use of native plants in the garden is

a secondary focus.

Individual subscription, quarterly, $25.00.



 To find a practioner (naturopathic):

 ***********************************



 American Holistic Medical Association

 2002 Eastlake Ave E

 Seattle, WA 98102

 206-322-6842



 American Association of Naturopathic Physicians

 P.O. Box 20386

 Seattle, WA 98102

 206-323-7610



 Herbal medicine information:

 ****************************



 The American Botanical Council

 P.O. Box 201660

 Austin, Texas 78720



 The Herbal Reseach Foundation

 1007 Pearl Street

 Suite 200

 Boulder, Colorado  80302



 Both of these organizations publish the Herbalgram, they have a 1-800 #

 for subscriptions:  1-800-748-2617



(27)***************************Herbs for shade**********************************

Parsley, lovage, angelica, sweet cicely, chervil, sweet woodruff are

herbs that do well in shade. Monarda and lemon balm, and mint also

-mint being less invasive in shade.Heartsease (violas, johnny jump-ups

add a touch of color, and scent if planting viola odorata.

-All viola flowers are edible.



(28)*******************Small list of books on herb garden design.***************

Rodale's Illustrated Ency. of Herbs / ed. by Claire Kowalchik -- Rodale Press.

(Ithink it comes out every year) and "The Herb Companion" a magazine she

claims is great.

*****

My favorite picks are:

Classic Garden Design : how to adapt and recreate garden features of the

past / Rosemary Verey -- 1st American ed. -- New York: Congdon & Weed, c1984.

Its a particularly fine book on garden design, (perhaps you've read it

already?)  There is a special chapter on putting together herb gardens, as

well as info. throughout the bokk on ornaments, paths and other features

which might suit. Plus its got lovely pictures.



Herb Garden Design / Faith H. Swanson & Virginia B. Rrady. -- Hanover:

University Press of New England, c1984.

No photos to speak of but, lots of really delicious drawings to scale for

herb garden plans and nifty ideas. Some of the best (almost cute) plans

are for smaller gardens "for the novice"  There are both formal and

informal designs and an out line of design basics. This book may be out of

print but, is worth the trouble to find at your local library or through

an interlibrary loan.



(29)***************************Thymes*****************************************

>I have an herb that I bought because I loved the lemony smell when

>I crushed the leaves! I was told it was thyme--is this a special

>variety of thyme? Is it normally used in food/drinks?  Any info

>appreciatied.



If your plant is a thyme, the most likely candidate is Lemon Thyme (Thymus

citriodorus).  Another possibility is Doone Valley Lemon Thyme (Thymus

pulegoides).  (Regular old garden thyme is Thymus vulgaris).  According to

one of my herb books: "Herbs, Their Cultivation and Usage", John & Rosemary

Hemphill, Bladford Press, London, lemon time is used for culinary purposes.

They say that "Lemon thyme, with its milder flavour, is excellent with fish,

chicken or turkey mornays, steamed carrots, omelettes and in all kinds of

food with a delicate or bland flavour.  It is sometimes used as an extra

ingredient in a "fines herbes" blend, with chervil, chives, parsley and

tarragon."



If you like lemony smelling herbs, you might also want to check out Lemon

Balm (Melissa officinalis) and Lemon Verbena (Aloysia triphylla).

*****

When lemon thyme blooms, try sprinkling boiled, halved new potatoes

with the blossoms and a little salt and cracked pepper.  No butter

needed.  Can't wait!  My thyme is still far from blooming.  Lemon

thyme is also good in vinaigrette on blanched green beans or lettuce.

*****

Some creeping thyme sources are:



        COMPANION PLANTS                        [CATALOG $2]

        7247 North Coolville Ridge Road         [MINIMUM ORDER]

        Athens, OH 45701                        [$15 Plants]

        (614) 592-4643                          [$5 Seeds]



        THE SEED SOURCE                         [CAT $4]

        Rte. 68, Box 301                        [M.O. $25]

        Tuckasegee, NC 28783



NOTE: Has seed of more than 7,000 unusual plants. Previously known as

Maver Nursery.



        WELL-SWEEP HERB FARM                    [CAT $2]

        317 Mt. Bethel Rd.                      [M.O. $5]

        Port Murray, NJ 07865                   [NO telephone orders]

        (201) 852-5390



        NICHOLS GARDEN NURSERY INC.             [CAT FREE]

        1190 North Pacific Hwy.

        Albany, OR 97321

        (503) 928-9280

*****

A good source of thymes is the nursery someone posted yesterday:

Companion Plants, 7247 N. Coolville Ridge, Rd., Athens, Ohio 45701.

Phone (614) 592-4043.



Most of their thymes are prostrate ("creeping").  My favorite thyme

is orange-balsam.  It has a warm, almost nutty, citrus scent.

It is one of the more upright growing thymes.



*****

Creeping thyme source:



        COMPANION PLANTS                        [CATALOG $2]

        7247 North Coolville Ridge Road         [MINIMUM ORDER]

        Athens, OH 45701                        [$15 Plants]

        (614) 592-4643                          [$5 Seeds]



        THE SEED SOURCE                         [CAT $4]

        Rte. 68, Box 301                        [M.O. $25]

        Tuckasegee, NC 28783



NOTE: Has seed of more than 7,000 unusual plants. Previously known as

Maver Nursery.



        WELL-SWEEP HERB FARM                    [CAT $2]

        317 Mt. Bethel Rd.                      [M.O. $5]

        Port Murray, NJ 07865                   [NO telephone orders]

        (201) 852-5390



        NICHOLS GARDEN NURSERY INC.             [CAT FREE]

        1190 North Pacific Hwy.

        Albany, OR 97321

        (503) 928-9280

*****

A good source of thymes is the nursery someone posted yesterday:

Companion Plants, 7247 N. Coolville Ridge, Rd., Athens, Ohio 45701.

Phone (614) 592-4043.



Most of their thymes are prostrate ("creeping").  My favorite thyme

is orange-balsam.  It has a warm, almost nutty, citrus scent.

It is one of the more upright growing thymes.

*****

>I have _Thymus citriodorus nana_ (nana means miniature) bought at a local

>nursery about a month ago. When I bought it, it had an apt yellow tinge to

>its leaves, but now it's just green, all over. It seems to be growing, so I'm

>not very worried, I was just wondering why it wasn't yellow anymore.

I just checked my plant and about half the growth on it is green.  My guess is

that the new growth comes in green and turns more yellow later.  As long as your

plant is growing and looking healthy I wouldn't worry about it.



>I've bought _Thymus serpyllum_ seeds. What is it, if not regular

thyme? Culinary usage? Not that it has germinated, but it may still...



Thymus serphyllum is Mother-of-Thyme.  Other common names for it are Wild

Thyme, Creeping Thyme and, just to be absolutely confusing, Lemon Thyme. This

plant has a more prostrate habit than Garden Thyme (Thymus vulgaris) and is

really beautiful as a ground cover or flowing over a rock wall.  It is pretty

compact so it looks good all year but when it flowers it is absolutely

stunning (pinky-purple carpet time).  The bees absolutely love it.  Normally

it is not used for culinary purposes because T.vulgaris has a stronger and

more pronounced flavour, but you could use it as a substitute if you didn't

have any T.vulgaris.

*****

I don't know why, but every time I've grown lemon thyme it has turned all green

in hot weather/long days and its yellow markings have returned in cool weather/

shorter days. It just seems to grow that way.



(30)************************** Herbs by e-mail *********************************



People who are into growing herbs can now access Richters, the excellent

Canadian purveyor of fairly unusual plants and seeds by e-mail.



Their internet address is: richter@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca



"Customers can place orders, inquire about orders or ask questions about any of

Richters products."

I guess you can ask for their catalog too.



(31)************************ Flowering chives **********************************

> I have some chives in my garden that are growing like crazy and

> producing lots of purple flowers. I know it's generally not a good idea

> to let herbs go to seed, but at what point should I cut off the

> flower/seed head? Now? When they start producing seeds? And what will

> happen if I don't?



Chives are vigorous enough that flowering won't diminish the growth of

the plant.  I left mine to go to seed last year, now I have a million

unwanted chive plants springing up everywhere around the main plant.

So you might want to consider removing the heads when the flowering

is over.  Personally, I find chives so mild tasting....read BLAND...

that I ONLY grow them for the flower display.

*****

This is an interesting question.  I have one herb book (only one) which says

that if you leave the flowers on it weakens the plant.  I have left the

flowers on plants a number of times just because they are so pretty, and I

haven't really noticed that my plants became significantly weaker.  I have

noticed that the flower stalks are tougher (too tough to be terrific in the

kitchen) and that the plants which produce flowers tend to put their energies

into producing flowers and seeds rather than into producing succulent new

leaves.  I think that the best plan is to have several chive clumps and to

cut one or two for the kitchen and let the other(s) flower for show.  It is

really easy to end up with lots of chive clumps, because they are so easy to

divide.  (Best time is spring or fall).  Don't worry about the chive clump

dying if you let it flower and go to seed.  It won't.

*****

According to my mom, who had lots of these also, chive blossoms are edible,

and make a nice garnish in salad. She is also making chive blossom vinegar

(it's a lovely pink color right now).

*****

My daughter has chives in our herb garden - she is letting it go to

flower - it has blooms like a clover - she takes the blooms and puts

them into our salad - they are delicious - why not try that - be

careful because they are sort of strong tasting...

*****

Just the other night, I had a nice pesto sauce which was garnished

with chives flowers.  Adds color and flavor.

Keep them on the plants until you use them.



(32)************************A quick, living fence*******************************

How about some Rosemary, in warmer areas. I planted some a few months ago

at the front of my house. The nursery claim that it will grow to

6-7 ft in 2-3 seasons. It certainly seems to be on it's way to

that at the moment. You can use it in cooking, and it has very

nice pale blue flowers at this time of year too.



(33)******************************Curry plant**********************************

>>I bought a plant this weekend, called a Curry plant. Smells just like curry. I

>>know, however, that curry does not use this plant.  I forget the scientific

>>name, starts with an "H".



>>Does anyone know if it *is* edible?  I don't think so: nothing with it to

>>indicate such.  Apparently, it is a moth repellant. But wouldn't be worth

>>smelling like curry, in order to protect woolen sweaters. Not to me, anyway.

>According to my book on herbs, it is not edible, but ornamental. I too

>bought such a plant, thinking I could use it for curry, but I was wrong.



Helichrysum angustifolium is generally regarded as inedible; but here is

perhaps the first author to suggest otherwise:



   D. Hewer (1941; Practical Herb Growing) writes that the plant

            "has a strong smell of curry, which is retained on drying

            so that it is worth trying in soups."



This always struck me as an example of the kind of hopeful justification

a commercial herb grower (Hewer owned a herb farm) might make to sell plants;

clearly Hewer never actually tried it.  However, here is a more recent

suggestion:



   L. Bremness (1989; The Complete Book of Herbs) writes: "Add a sprig

            to soups, stews, steamed vegetables, rice dishes and pickles

            for a mild curry flavour.  Remove sprig before serving."

*****

> >You probably are purchasing a Helichrysum species.  I would be VERY

> >careful about using it in cooking since several species of this genus

> >are quite toxic, especially when used in quantity.  The fact that

> >the plant smells like a common spices seems to give people a false sense

> >of security (based upon several followups to this post).



Not to worry, in particular.  There are several species of Helichrysum that

are THOUGHT to be poisonous but I think there is little to worrry about

from occasional useage.  Lots of commonly used herbs and spices are quite

deadly taken in large enough quantities (nutmeg, tarragon, etc).  I just

wouldn't make a habit of pigging out on the stuff.

>

> Anyway, I brought the scientific name of my plant in.  You are right:

> it is a Helichrysum.  The *plant*, ie, the plastic stuck in it, is

> labelled "Helichrysum congustifolium (curry plant)".  The greenhouse's

> catalog lists it as, "Curry: Perrenial/12" (Helichrysum

> angustifolium).  The gray wooly leaves have a delightful curry

> fragrance.  It produces clusters of yellow flowers in summer that are

> excellent dried.  Good rock garden plant."  NOTICE that the scientific

> names are not the same.



I assume that the "con" is merely a typo for "ang" [which is the proper

name, as I recall]

*****

The curry plant is Helichrysum angustifolium.  All the information that I

have come across says that sprigs may be added to soups, stews, steamed

vegetables, etc. to impart a mild curry flavour.  The key here is the word

"mild".  This isn't a strongly aromatic plant.



*****

Curry vs the curry plant:



I have no idea where in your area you could get a "curry plant" so I can't

help with that, but just to avoid confusion please note:



1. The word "curry" is used to describe a mixture of spices.  Many Indian

families have their own blends and the mixture may be anything from 5 to 25

different spices. Commonly used ingredients are tumeric, coriander, chilies,

fenugreek,cardamom, nutmeg, etc.

2. There is a "curry leaf" used in Southern Indian cooking and in Madras

Curry Powder.  These leaves come from a small tree indigenous to the lower

slopes of the Himalayas.  Botanically it is called Chalcas koenigii or

Murraya koenigii.

3. There is a curry plant, botanically Helichrysum angustifolium.  The sprigs

have a very mild curry aroma and flavour, but I don't think that they are

used in Indian cooking at all.



(34)***************************Types of catnip*********************************

>So, what, if any, is the difference between catNIP and catMINT?  I'm

>sure I've seen "catmint" on a seed package of plain ole' catnip, but

>last year a local garden store had "catmint" plants, that had blue flowers;

>otherwise, the plant looked very similar (I think I remember that the

>foliage was slightly more or less grey-ish).  I couldn't bring myself



Nepeta cataria is usually referred to as catnip, the one most people

(and cats) know. But to confuse the issue, some books also refer to it

as catmint.



Nepeta mussinii and N. x faassenii are smaller, greyer, somewhat sweeter

smelling plants which are often called catmint (mint probably because they

are lower and they spread).  They also have blue flowers.  (We call the

latter "Faassen's Catnip" just to confuse the situation further).



According to articles posted here earlier, the catmints seem to attract

certain cats, though not all.  Many, but not all, are attracted to the

true catnip, and even to the lemon version (N. cataria ssp. citriodora).



The cat thyme (Teucrium marum) is a different animal altogether.  Some

cats, apparently, thinV{ the world for this one, though I have never

seen any go after it.

*****

Catmint and Catnip are the same genus but different species, as follows:

Garden Catmint is Nepeta faassenii, Perennial Catmint is Nepeta mussinii and

Catnip, also known as Wild Catmint, is Nepeta cataria. There is also a Lemon

Catnip, Nepeta cataria citriodora.



>Anyone done a feline comparison?  I got some "thyme cat" (not cat thyme,

>don't ask me why) this year; they like it enough for me to  put the

>plant in a hanger (i.e., out of reach).  Anything else for kitties?

>I think I've read that valerian also attracts them; true?



Your Cat Thyme is probably Teucrium marum, and yes, Valerian (Valeriana

officinalis) is supposed to be attractive to cats.  A common name for it is

"Cat's Valerian".  It is also supposed to be very attractive to rats...the

Pied Piper's secret.



According to anything I have read on the subject cats go after catnip but

aren't nearly so interested in catmints.  I can't tell you a thing from

personal experience because I seem to have defective cats (gad!).  This

spring I planted a patch of catmint and have also been growing several catnip

plants from seed and even started a valerian.  Both of my cats are completely

ignoring the whole lot.  Bring out a bowl of icecream however and they will

fight you for the spoon.  Perhaps when my plants get bigger they will receive

more attention...



(35)****************************Garlic*****************************************

Do you still have a window receiving sunlight in the winter time?

Have you bought any garlic lately to cook with.  (If you haven't,

time to upgrade your dinner menu)



Anway, drag out a couple of those disposable nasty green plastic pots

that nurseries sell you houseplants in, pop in a couple of cloves of

garlic, well spaced, with the pointed end up.  Water as you would

any houseplant and stand back while the green tips shoot up.  I planted

a couple of cloves last week while my stir fry was sizzling and one

week later the stalks are roughly 8-10 inches high.  OOPS, make that

were 8-10 inches high. I whacked them in half, diced them and used

it to season the soup.

*****

: Can somebody enlighten me on the tricks to growing garlic?

:

: 1) how deep do you plant the bulbs?   Just under the surface.

                                        Pointed end up!!!



: 2) Does garlic grow on the surface like onions do, or does it

: remain submerged?                     Half / half.

:

: 3) How much water do they require?    Not too much, but enough.

:

: 4) Sunlight conditions?               Don't over do it.



: 5) Do you plant in the spring or fall? Or later on in the winter.

                                   ^^^^  possibly very, very early spring.

					 Light frost doesn't hurt.



: 6) How much space is required?        9" between plants

                                        12" - 18" between rows.



: 7) Feeding??                          Rotted compost in light loamey soil.

                                        Not too much of the mulch.



: let 5 of the plants remain in the ground through the winter.  The

: plants now look like vigorous young corn stalks (2 feet tall).

: However, I'm already beginning to see yellowing on some of the

: lower leaves.  Any hints??

                                        Don't worry they do that.

					Harvest middle July or later.

					Most green leaves will have died back.

					I made the mistake of harvesting

					too early.



  8) Good for health?                   Definately!

  9) Companion plant for roses?            ditto!      Keeps Aphids away.



(36)****************************Herb Sources***********************************

The following sources are from the book _CORNUCOPIA: A Source Book of

Edible Plants_ by Stephen Facciola (ISBN 0-9628087-0-9), but before I list

them, here is a list of abbreviations used.



        CAT - Catalog

        CC - Credit Cards

        ENGL - English Language Catalog

        M.O. - Minimum Order

        OVER - Overseas

        PC - Personal Checks

        OC - Other Currencies

        SASE - Self-Addressed Stamped Envelope

        NTO - NO TELEPHONE ORDERS



                          SOME HERB SEED SOURCES



BERRY TREE (THE)

15368 Mowersville Rd.

Shippensburg, PA 17257

717-423-6701 (telephone)



CAT $1, PC/CC, OVER

---

CAPRILAND'S HERB FARM

534 Silver St.

Coventry, CT 06238

203-742-7244



CAT SASE, PC, OVER, M.O. $5, NTO.

---

CASA YERBA GARDENS

3459 Days Creek Road

Days Creek, OR

503-825-3534



CAT SASE, PC, OVER.

---

CATNIP ACRES HERB FARM

67 Christian St.

Oxford, CT 06483

203-888-5649



CAT $2, PC/CC, OVER.

---

CEDARBROOK HERB FARM

986 Sequim Ave. South

Sequim, WA 98382

206-683-7733



CAT FREE, PC.

---

COMPANION PLANTS

7247 North Coolville Ridge Road

Athens, OH 45701

614-592-4643



CAT $2, PC/CC, OVER (SEEDS ONLY), $15 PLANTS, $5 SEEDS.

---

CRICKET HILL HERB FARM, LTD.

Glen Street

Rowley, MA 01969

508-948-2818



CAT $1, PC/CC.

---

DACHA BARINKA

26232 Strathcona Road

Chilliwack, BC  V2P 3T2

Canada

604-792-0957



CAT SASE, PC, OVER, NTO.

---

FOX HILL FARM

444 W. Michigan Ave.

Box 9

Parma, MI 49269-0009

517-531-3179



CAT $2, PC/CC, OVER, M.O. $15.

---

FOX HOLLOW HERBS

P.O. Box 148

McGrann, PA 16236

[no telephone number listed]



CAT FREE, PC.

---

FRAGRANT FIELDS

128 Front Street

Dongola, IL 62926

1-800-635-0282



CAT $1, PC.

---

GREENFIELD HERB GARDEN

Depot & Harrison

P.O. Box 437

Shipshewana, IN 46565

219-768-7110



CAT $.50 + SASE, PC/CC.

---

HARTMAN'S HERB FARM

Old Dana Rd.

Barre, MA 01005

508-355-2015



CAT $2, PC/CC, OVER, M.O. $10

---

HERB GATHERING

4000 West 126th St.

Leawood, KS 66209

913-345-0490



CAT $2, PC/CC, OVER.

---

HILLTOP HERB FARM

P.O. Box 325

Romayor, TX 77368

713-592-5859



CAT FREE, PC/CC, M.O. $20.

---

OF THE JUNGLE

P.O. Box 1801

Sebastopol, CA 95473

[no telephone number listed]



CAT $1, PC, OVER. Rare & ethnopharmalogical plants, seeds & botanical

products including tribal medicines, vegetables, herbs & fruits.



(37)******************************Controlling mint******************************

> 	I am suprised that nobody mentioned the mentha group in

> the list of invasive/obnoxious plants. Personally, I love them, and

> have been collecting various different types over the past couple

> of years. I think I have 8 or 9 at the moment. Well, I would like

> to get them out of their restrcitive pots and plant them, but I

> do wish to keep them under control. So

> 	1) How much room should I give each of the plants



As much as you want.  They'll fill it in.



> 	2) How deep a barrier should I put in the earth to stop

> 		the runners



1/4 armor plate sunk at least to the frostline?  Honestly, I don't

know.  I do know that 12" corrugated aluminum sunk 8" doesn't

really phase some of my mints.



> 	3) Should I continue the barrier up above the soil to help

> 		stop the creepers



Helps, but doesn't prevent it entirely.



> 	4) Should I dead head the plants after flowering to stop

> 		the seeds spreading

> 	5) Can you get intersting new varieties, scents or variegation

> 		from seed



Yes.  In fact, the variation you can get from a batch of seedlings is

pretty astounding.  Sometimes you get good stuff, most of them are

no better (and may be worse) than what you started with.  Some hybrids

won't seed at all.



The perennial menthas can be pretty troublesome.  I've "solved" the problem

growing the friskier ones in 1/2 whisky barrels, which they don't seem

to escape, and others where they are likely to be trod on.  I kid you

not, some of my mints are growing in crannies near the sidewalk, so I

can step on them as I walk by.  Smells good, keeps 'em from taking over

the neighborhood.



My lemon balm (Melissa officinalis) is planted under the hose bibb, so

I walk through it whenever I disconnect or turn on the hose.  It doesn't

seem to mind, and I always have plenty, without having it turn into the

"Lemon Balm That Ate Slater". It likes the hose drips, too.

*****

Years ago, I had a beautiful herb garden at my folks' house. The secret, I

found, to it not becoming an exclusively MINT garden was to plant the mint

in clay pots and plant the pots in the garden. Every few years I dug up

the pots and "rejuvenated" the environment. I found that this worked

really well. Hope this is useful.

(38)**************************Growing Herbs Indoors****************************

Parsley - grows well; I have found curly parsley doesn't bolt as

		quickly as Italian parsley indoors

Sweet Basil - not unless you have a lot of light and warm temps; if

		all you want is a few leaves now and then it will work

		but if you want to make pesto with it, forget it

Oregano - grows well

Dill - gets too big and leggy, tends to go to seed quickly too

Borage - never tried it

Thyme - grows well

Summer Savory - never tried it

Mustard - never tried it

Chives - grows well

Anise - same problem as dill



Herbs tend to take a while before they get big enough to harvest

if you grow them from seed. Your friend will have to be patient.

The exception to this is basil. It grows quite fast under good

conditions.

*****

Basil is an annual and once it has flowered and set seed it will die.  However

if you keep cutting off the flowers and don't let it set seed it will keep

going for quite a long time.  I have brought basils into the house in the fall

and kept them going until February (when fresh pesto is a thing to dream of).

I find that at some point (usually Feb.) they get so stressed out by their

artificially long life that they start to look very ratty and are invariably

victims of whatever kind of insect attack is currently going on (aphids,

whitefly, etc.)...but it is still worth the trouble for those few extra

months of fresh basil.

*****

It's not too late to get small plants of things like thymes and rosemarys and

lavenders. Seeds of basils, coriander will need a bit of bottom heat to germin-

ate well.



Tarragon will go dormant in winter and so doesn't make a very good container

plant. Chives and Chinese chives will do well. So will scented geraniums.

Lemon grass may need more heat than your window sill will provide, but you can

grow it under lights and on a heating cable. It will also need a LOT of room.

(39)********************************Lemon Grass********************************

>I recall reading here once that one could sprout and plant lemongrass

>from the stalks you buy at the grocery store.  How does one do so?  I

>would love to have fresh lemongrass this summer!



I just get some from the store, making sure that they have some stem on

the bottom. (You need that - if they cut too much off there is nothing

there to root).  Then I just put them in a jar of water.  They take about

a week or two to root.  When the roots are an inch or so long, (or even

less), you can plant them.  Give them lots of warmth and light.

*****

1) Get some lemon grass from an oriental grocery.  Make sure that it

   has been cut low, i.e., the cut does not show the concentric circles

   but rather has a solid appearance.



2) Chop off  the lower 1.5 to 2 inches.  Use the top for favorite

   food.  Use the bottom to start a new plant.



Note:

   Just leaving the chopped off pieces in a glass with some woter at

   the bottom may produce roots, but in my experiments, the rooting was

   erratic (perhaps depends on how old was the grass?).  I got 50%

   rooting in water, with a really disappointing and unusual 0%

   survival after planting the result.  The remainder describes the

   method I use now, with maybe one or two cases (out of ~30) when

   the cutting died insetad of taking root.



3) Slice off just a tiny bit of the bottom of the chopped off portion

   of the stalk, to get rid of the dried out surface layer.



4) Dip the exposed surface in 'Rootone' (rooting hormone powder,

   available in garden stores).  Without the hormone, the rooting is

   slower and not as reliable.



5) Stick in a rooting medium (I use Jiffy mix).  Keep moist and warm

   (e.g., put the whole thing in a plastic bag.  Use a plastic pot, not

   a Jiffy pot - the latter seems to stunt the growth rate somewhat,

   and removing it before planting is likely to damage the roots.



6) When the shoots appear, start fertilizing.  Transplant into bigger

   pot soon - the roots are very vigorous.  When you have a couple of

   stalks, plant outside.  Add lots of compost into the hole.  Water

   deeply each time you see any signs of drought stress (the blades

   will curl lengthwise and the clump will assume spiky/spindly look).



7) If you're in zone 7 or 8 and are lucky, it may overwinter if the

   clump is cut down just before the first frost and covered with

   mulch.  While lemon grass is not supposed to survive hard freezees,

   three, out of the four I left outside, survived the last winter in NC

   (with the temperature dropping into the teens a couple of times).



8) Best, start the plants for the next year in the fall.  Or dig up a

   part of the clump and bring home.  However, lemon grass seem to like

   humidity, and dry indoors air does not help it at all.  While

   misting now and then helps, it is happiest outside (the ones I

   planted 4 weeks ago have put on more growth than I saw on them

   through the winter).  Also, note that it does not seem to mind

   standing in 1-2 inches of water - I keep the overwintering pots

   (2-3 gallon size) in deep trays and water each time the water in the

   trays is just about to disappear.

*****

Lemon grass harvested fresh can be just chopped up and put in the

food.  Be aware that the leaves and stalks have very different

textures and flavor characters.  Yes, you can use it green or just

bind it up with twine and dry it.



CAUTION!!!  Once lemon grass is planted in a bed, it is close to

impossible to keep it from continuing to grow there.  It is like

bamboo, and it will also spread like bamboo.  This is also true for

horseradish.   Best to plant these in containers and be sure to never

empty the soil from these containers into any planting bed.



(40)****************************Citronella************************************

> At a local hardware/nursery -- but not at any of the usual nurseries and

> greenhouses I do business with -- I've seen a plant advertised called

> "Citronella."  Allegedly the smell from the plant clogs the noses (?!?)

> (breathing passages?) of mosquitos and drives them away -- hence, it's

> advertised as a natural mosquito repellent for gardens.  The price, per

> tiny potted plant, was astronomical -- about $12 for a tiny seedling.

> When I asked about this, I was told that there were only two growers in the

> U.S. who were "licensed" to grow them, that they were rare and hard to get.

> What can anyone tell me about Citronella?



True citronella is a grass, _Cymbopogon citratus_.  A limonene-rich oil

can be extracted and was used as a mosquito repellant for many years--

citronella candles used to be common.



I suspect the plants you're talking about are 'Citrosa' pelargonium,

a selection of scented leaf geranium that is supposed to be rich in

limonenes.  I believe it's patented, so production is controlled.



If you crush 'Citrosa' leaves and rub them on your skin, you'll have a

short-term mosquito repellant.  They won't do anything as mosquito repellants

if you don't crush the leaves, but they are kinda pretty...  Some of

the other lemon-scented geraniums should work in the same way, at much

less cost, should you want to experiment.  Me, I'll stick with DEET.

(41)********************Harvesting/Drying/Using Mint****************************

>>I have a few young mint plants growing - spearmint and orange mint.

>>What's the right procedure for trimming/cutting leaves for making teas

>>or jellies?  I assume I'll be doing this in late summer or early fall,

>>and I would like to not kill the plants if I can avoid it.



When your plants are spreading like wildfire -- and they will -- dig

up the ones that are growing where you don't want them.  Strip the

leaves off the stems, rinse them in cool water, pat them dry, and

spread them out on dry paper towels or cake racks.  Set them in a dry

place out of the sun and wait a few days (you can speed the process by

putting the rack in a gas oven with only the pilot light on).  When

the leaves are crispy, slightly crumble them and store in a canister.

Use just like regular tea leaves.  If you are VERY careful, you can

start the drying in a microwave, just a few seconds at a time.  It's

extremely easy to cook the leaves, though, especially if there is any

dampness left, so I recommend patience and natural drying.



Check any good general cookbook for mint jelly recipes (Joy of

Cooking, etc.).

*****

Making another sort of jam, I noticed that the flyer in the pectin box had

a recipe for mint jelly. I haven't tried it, so I don't know if it's any good

or not, but it calls for 1 1/2 c. of packed mint leaves, crushed or chopped and

boiled to make 3 c. of infusion, 4 c. of sugar and your standard box of powdered

pectin. Hope this helps.

(42)**************************Lemon Balm (growing)******************************

Lemon Balm (Melissa officinalis):  Prefers a dry, well-drained soil, but

isn't a fussy plant.  I have grown it in full sun and almost full shade

without difficulty.  Although lemon balm dies down in winter the root is

perennial. The square stalk of lemon balm  is a dead giveaway that the plant

is related to the mints, and when I first started growing it I was all

prepared for the invasive root system that is one of the less enjoyable

characteristics of the mint family.  Instead, I discovered that the root

system was not particularly invasive but that it was necessary to keep a

sharp eye on the territory directly down wind from each plant.  Lemon Balm is

a prolific self-seeder. Without some watchfulness this herb can

become a self inflicted weed.  Because of lemon balm's prolific habits, I

have never found any need to take cuttings to increase my supply of plants.

A brief exploratory trip down wind will supply all the young plants that I am

ever likely to want or need.  Why would anyone grow something that could be

described as a "self inflicted weed"?  Just wait until the first grim rainy

miserable October day and make yourself a big pot of lemon balm tea.  It will

all become clear.

(43)****************************Mint Flavor Fades?********************************

>When different flavored mints grow in close proximity to

>each other, do they blend flavors?



No.  But mint is said to "fade" if grown in the same place several years.

It looks the same, but is said to lose some intensity of flavor.



Personally, I have not noticed that.  What I have noticed is that mint

tends to vary by season.  In early spring, my orange mint is VERY orange.

By end of summer, it is less orange, more mint.

*****

>Mints are also known to cross pollinate, but, unless you are

>growing mint from seed, I can't imagine that having an effect on your

>garden.



Oh but it can.  Sensible people grow their mints in pots, I know, but at

one point I decided to grow an entire bed of mints  (no excuse -too much room

and too little sense).  I planted Peppermint (M.piperita officinalis) and

Eau-de-Cologne Mint (M. piperita citrata) in the same bed and soon became the

possessor of an offspring which I call "Ghastly Mint" (M.piperita horrabilis).

I certainly understand why no one has been in a hurry to invent peppermint

perfume!  For a time I thought this development was quite interesting and left

things alone.  Then I discovered that "the youngster" was rather more vigorous

and aggressive than either parent and was rapidly taking over all the

territory. The only solution was to dig out the entire bed and start over.  If

you have ever tried to dig "all the mint" out of anything you will appreciate

what fun that was!

As long as you are keeping an eye on your mints and growing them in separate

pots you shouldn't run into this sort of thing but if they are in a

circumstance where they can self-seed you may be less than delighted with the

results.

*****

You may want to cut back on fertilizing your mint. Sometimes when they are grown

in a "rich" medium, they loose flavor. If the growth is really lush, the flavor

won't be.

(44)*******************************Cumin Plant************************************

I checked my books, and apparently only the cumin seed, whole or ground,

(Cuminum cyminum)

is used for culinary purposes.  This is a very tender annual and the growing

conditions are as

follows:

1. A hot, mild climate and a long growing season (3-4 months).  It is grown

commercially around

the mediterranean, particularly on Malta and in Sicily, also along the west

coast of Africa.

2. Prefers a rich well-drained sandy soil.

3. Likes full sun.

4. Can grow to 2 ft. and produces a stem with many branches and small flowers

which can be white or pink.

5.  You harvest your seed crop when the plants begin to wither.  The seeds

must then be dried and threshed.

(45)*******************************Lavender***********************************

>Does anyone have any tried and tru techniques for drying lavender and

>separating the buds. I just clipped a far amount of stalks off my

>plants just as they were starting to bud, and I was hoping to use

>them in potpourri or something else....Will they just shake off

>after they're dried.

>Also, anyone have any favorite things to do or make with lavender?



I put the lavender, stalks and all, on big trays to dry.  You can also bundle

them up and hang them to dry if that is more convenient.  I also make a few

bouquets for the house and treat them just like cut flowers except that I

don't give them any water.

The flowers will separate easily from the stalks once they are thoroughly

dried so don't bother trying to separate them until then.

As for making things, as you mentioned Lavender is a great ingredient for

potpourri.  I usually make lavender sachets...just a plain cotten baggie tied

at the top and stuffed full of lavender.  Even without a fixative, lavender

will stay fragrant for about a year.  These sachets are great for popping in

any drawers where you have clothing -smells good and also acts as a bug

repellant.



Lavender, in small quantities, can be added to herbal tea blends and it goes

particularly well with the mints.  As a culinary item lavender has gone out

of fashion, but Queen Elizabeth I was very fond of Lavender Conserve.  You

can also make Lavender Jelly, Lavender Syrup for desserts and Lavender Sugar

for sprinkling on cakes and cookies.  A rather nice old English custom was to

serve small sweets on lavender stalks much the same way we might serve a

bite-size savory nibble on a toothpick.



LAVENDER CAGES: These "cages" are made when the lavender is freshly cut and

the stalks are still flexible.  Cut about 25 stalks of lavender to the same

length and as long as possible.  Rub off any leaves so that each stalk is

bare other then for the lavender flowers at the top.  Bundle the lavender

flowers together and tie them tightly just under the flower heads.  Then hold

the flower bunch upside down and carefully bend down each stalk so that the

lavender flowers are enclosed in a "cage" made by the stalks.  Tie

the stems together tightly at the bottom of the cage and trim them so they

are even.  Make a loop in the string so that you can hang up your cage until

the lavender is completely dry.  Although simple cotton string is perfectly

serviceable, there is nothing like a piece of slim satin ribbon to make

lavender cages as beautiful as they are fragrant.  Try using the cage "bars"

as weft threads and weaving the satin ribbon through them.



CONSERVE OF THE FLOWERS OF LAVENDER: The following recipe is from "The

Queen's Closet Opened" by W.M., the Cook to Queen Henrietta Maria, 1655.

"Take the flowers being new so many as you please, and beat them with three

times their weight of White Sugar, after the same manner as Rosemary flowers;

they will keep one year."

*****

> As for making things, as you mentioned Lavender is a great ingredient for

> potpourri.  I usually make lavender sachets...just a plain cotten baggie tied

> at the top and stuffed full of lavender.  Even without a fixative, lavender

> will stay fragrant for about a year.  These sachets are great for popping in

> any drawers where you have clothing -smells good and also acts as a bug

> repellant.



I put my dried herbs in plastic bags when I use them for sachets.  The

plastic is somewhat less elegant, but the fragrance is released much more

slowly through the plastic.

(46)*************************Miscellaneous Yummy Stuff!************************

>I just found out that my wife uses lemon thyme (and equal amount of parsley)

>as a substitute for Basil, in pesto. Tastes great, too!



Sounds good.

Cilantro works well too. And you can make a great dip by mixing the

cilantro pesto with sour cream.



It's a good way of dealing with all that cilantro you get all at once

just before it dies in the heat.

*****

>Now I have to harvest the rest of the herbs, the ones that can take a

>little cooler weather.  Anybody got any ideas beyond the usual oils and

>vinegars for herbs like sage, thyme, chives, anise hyssop, savory, lemon

>balm, etc.?  I've made herbal jellies before, but they're a lot of

>trouble and nobody but me likes them.



Sage: excellent on meats and sausages, also try this little treat: take

      some sage leaves, dip them in batter, and fry them!  I'm serious...

      it tastes great!



Thyme: goes great with any other herbs, especially italian herbs... also

       good on meat

       if you grow lemon thyme, use that in cookies and baked goods for a

       lemon flavor (lemon thyme jelly is yummy too)



Chives: salads... anything you want an onion flavor on... the flowers

        are also a great edible garnish



Savory: is it winter or summer savory?  Winter savory has a much more

        pungent flavor and is good for dishes that can use some good

        strong seasoning, like game... summer savory is better for

        vegetables and dips



Lemon balm: same as lemon thyme... use in candies, cookies, baked goods,

            and it also makes a very nice tea

*****

Or ravioli in sage butter...I don't have a recipe but it's generally clarified

butter with sage leaves which have been cooked until crisp.

*****

Another thought for the flowers: my chive plant is next to the gas grill. On

a lark, I picked a cluster of flowers and hung them over the grill rack,

cooking them until warm and slightly crisp and browned on the edges. When I

ate them, they had the most wonderful nutty flavor - almost like peanuts. It

was delicious.

(47)********************************Savory****************************

For starters there are two different savories: Summer Savory (Satureja

hortensis) and Winter Savory (Satureja montana).  Summer Savory is an annual

and Winter Savory is a perennial.  I grow both and both can be used in

recipes -there is a slight flavour difference between the two and gourmets

tend to insist that Summer Savory is the better culinary herb.  Frankly, I

think that the difference is pretty minor.  Being a perennial, I find that

Winter Savory is less trouble to grow but in your climate it might not be

winter hardy so maybe you would be better off with Summer Savory.



Growing conditions: full sun, normal well-drained soil.  Summer savory is

larger, growing to about 1 and 1/2 feet high.  Winter savory has a growth

habit similar to garden Thyme. Savory tastes like...savory.  If you had to

substitute another herb, I would try a bit of Thyme.



You may find that a lot of recipes for beans call for Savory -this sometimes

isn't just for the flavour -the Savories have a long standing medicinal

reputation for aiding digestion and helping with gas pains.

(48)**********************Aztec Sweet Herb*******************************

>I recently bought something called the Aztec Sweet Herb (Lippia dulcia).

>It's a perenial member of the Verbena family.  The tag says that it was

>used by the Aztecs as a sweetner and is 1000 times sweeter than sugar.

>I've tasted a leaf and it did taste sweet.  In a catalog that I have, it

>says that it's the flower that is used to sweetener.  Does anyone know for

>sure what part of the plant is used?  Is there any harm in using the leaf

>(since it is sweet)?

>No where have I seen much of a description of the conditions that this

>plant preferrs.  Does anyone have any info on sun and soil conditions?

Aztec sweet herb prefers cool mountainous areas that get plenty of

rain and fog.  It likes well-drained soil with a high mix of

limestone pebbles, I was told by my botany teacher.

	It grows mostly in the mountains of places like Colombia

and is becoming endangered due to overharvesting.  The leaves

are usable but the reasons flowers were traditionally used is

that flowers are sweeter and leaf removal often kills the plant.

Also, if you buy leaves chances are the plant was uprooted or

lopped off at ground level, preventing its reproduction.

	The plant is indeed much sweeter than sugar and is

a safe traditional sugar substitute.  Due to its threatened

status I would recommend trying to grow your own or using

other more readily available sweeteners, unless you are a

diabetic or are allergic to the usual sweeteners.

	The plant likes full sun if you live in a foggy cool

climate like Britain or Oregon, partial shade or indoor

plant otherwise.  It is a close relative of _Lippia graveolens_,

Mexican oregano.  Beware as this plant is not very hardy and

will freeze if you are colder than about Zone 6 supposedly.

Indoors and out it likes average soil of a neutral pH to a

very slightly basic pH (6.8-7.5).  If you grow it inside

try a sunny south-facing window and mist occasionally.

Divide or regrow from cuttings every few years or it will

get woody and lose potency.

*****

_Cornucopia: A Source Book of Edible Plants_, Stephen Facciola, Kampong

Pubs, Vista, CA, 1990, ISBN:0-9628087-0-9:



Lippia dulcis -> Phyla scaberrima



Phyla scaberrima - Aztec sweet-herb, Orozuz, Sweet lippia. The aromatic

leaves are occasionally eaten in salads, or used as a condiment. More

often they are chewed for their intensely sweet flavor or used to

sweeten teas and other beverages. The licorice-flavored roots are

chewed. Central America, Caribbean.



_Hortus III_, ISBN:0-02-505470-8:



Phyla: Lour. Frogfruit. Verbenaceae. About 15 spp. of procumbent or

crepping per. herbs, native to warm and trop. regions; plants glabrous

or with 2-armed hairs; lvs. opp., toothed or lobed, fls. small, violet,

blue, pink, or white, in dense spikes on axillary peduncles, calyx

2-lobed, enlarging and enclosing the fr., corolla 2-lipped, stamens 4;

fr. dry, of 2 nutlets.



P. scaberrima not listed.

(49)**************************Companion Planting With Herbs********************

	Growing garlic, chives and onions around the roses

has kept aphids off my roses and given me healthier Alliums.

Probably because they really like the rich soil mix provided

for the rose bed.  Also, it is an efficient use of space!



	Growing rosemary mixed in with the mint seems to keep

mint pests away too.  (rosemary is mostly pest-free)



	Growing pennyroyal at various intervals in the herb

garden has kept ants from moving into the loose, sandy soil

they like so much for tunneling.  It even kept out fire ants!

(50)*************************Medicinal Uses********************************

Hyssop is used in a lot of herbal throat lozenges, and has good throat and

cough soothing properties.

(51)****************************Questions seeking answers*********************

I know pretty much zilch about herbs, but as for suggestions for content,

I'd like to see a breakdonw by common/easy vs not-too-difficult vs hard-

to-grow/esoteric.  (I'm in the first category both for how I garden and

how I cook!)  An idea of about how many plants are reasonable to grow for

one family would be nice.  (Heavy users could adjust from there...)  An

indication of whether to dry or freeze or bring pots inside for winter, etc.

would be nice.  Lists of books for general information and cooking tips.

*****

General interest: I'd be interested in cultivation tips, pest

eradication, and recipes.  How about putting together categories of

which soil types are good for which herbs?   Right now my poor

French Tarragon is INFESTED with foliar mealybugs!  Safer's soap

doesn't seem to be working...

*****

We are interested in insect control for the garden, and the thing

we have tried is the "whizzes."  A whiz is a food processed

mixture of garlic, some sort of hot pepper, some olive oil, a

few drops of soap and anything else herbal that might be bug

repellant.  We added in several sprigs of wormwood.  We mixed

this with water, put it in a spray bottle and sprayed anything

that is susceptible to being nibbled on, with some success.

We need to be increasing the dosage but are having good results

keeping the flea beetle from decimating our eggplants.



Is there anybody else that have tried some unusual or different

bug controls like the garlic whiz?

*****

Also, as far as herbal-medicinal cures, we have fiddled around with

some, but we would like to hear if there is anyone who discovered a

very effective remedy to something.  For example, we feed our old

labrador Lou (nonstinky) garlic capsules for her arthritis.  She

went from a fairly painful hobble 2 years ago to 100% cure.  The

only thing is it takes at least a month of the treatment to even

notice any improvement, but persevering will see long term miracles.

*****















==========

Subject: Re: Parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme: what do they mean?

From: rsquires@unm.edu (roger m squires)

Date: 15 Oct 1993 08:49:14 -0600

--------

Jeffrey A. Del Col <br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu> wrote:

>

>It may simply be that the line scans well, but I suspect you're on the right

>track in thinking that the herbs had symbolic importance. ...

>[and gives good advice on finding references]

>



	What Mr. Stiller also might do is pick up one of the

	English Garden mysteries by John Sherwood, which features

	the botanist/nursery owner/detective Celia Grant.

	The one in question is _A Bouquet of Thorns_ which

	depends for its plot device on the symbolic meanings of

	dried herbs, and gives at least one original book

	reference as I recall.....



	....And if Mr. Stiller is really lazy, he can always ask

	over on alt.folklore.herbs and an fast answer will I'm

	sure appear shortly in his mailbox :)  Remember that

	there is very often a newsgroup designed for special

	interest questions like this if you glance through your

	.newsrc file before posting.



>J. Del Col



rms









==========

Subject: Sorry about the nuts...

From: pvt54121@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (The Blue Dragon)

Date: 15 Oct 1993 18:50:03 GMT

--------

Mi culpa on the mentioning of ginko seeds as nuts, but that was what I've been

calling it for ages and no one corrected me on it.  Too bad it's someone's pet

peeve to get something innocently wrong botanically.



					T.B.D.



-- 

*******************************************************************************

*     pvt54121@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu     *     To be, or not to be, that is the    *

*      University of Illinois       *     is the question.          Hamlet    *

******************************************************************************* 









==========

Subject: Re: Sorry about the nuts...

From: klier@cobra.uni.edu

Date: 15 Oct 93 19:14:41 -0500

--------

In article <29mrcr$dq2@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, pvt54121@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (The Blue Dragon) writes:

> Mi culpa on the mentioning of ginko seeds as nuts, but that was what I've been

> calling it for ages and no one corrected me on it.  Too bad it's someone's pet

> peeve to get something innocently wrong botanically.



Well, it's also a botanical infelicity to talk about "grass seed" or "corn

seed" or "sunflower seeds" since technically, those are caryopses (the

ovary wall is entirely adherent to the seed coat) or achenes (a dry,

indehiscent fruit with testa and pericarp adherent at a single point)....

but in common parlance, the units we stick in the ground are "seeds",

not "fruits".    And of course, strawberries are not berries (a fleshy

fruit derived from fused carpels), but "accessories"... the fleshy

part is the floral receptacle, and the "seeds" on the outside are

achenes...  



Another botanical problem is what you call a cone that is opening...

it's certainly not a flower, so the (e.g. pine) tree isn't flowering...

but "coning" sounds a bit strange too...  Oh, well...





As to Ginkgo, they've got a rather interesting life history.  The

ovules are pollinated in the spring, but those stinky "one inch in

diameter wrinkled, rotten peaches" (in the words of one of my students),

are _still_ ovules.  Fertilization doesn't take place until next January

or February.  Now that's _slow_!



Kay Klier  Biology Dept   UNI











==========

Subject: Re: Sorry about the nuts...

From: priag@NSD.3Com.COM (Pria Graves)

Date: 20 Oct 93 16:23:10 GMT

--------



   As to Ginkgo, they've got a rather interesting life history.  The

   ovules are pollinated in the spring, but those stinky "one inch in

   diameter wrinkled, rotten peaches" (in the words of one of my students),

   are _still_ ovules.  Fertilization doesn't take place until next January

   or February.  Now that's _slow_!



So what's wrong with me - I can't smell the fruit?  Do you know specifically

what compounds make the stink?  I can smell everything else except violets

that any one else seems to...



Pria









==========

Subject: Re: Sorry about the nuts...

From: klier@cobra.uni.edu

Date: 20 Oct 93 18:44:23 -0500

--------

In article <PRIAG.93Oct20092310@tenaya.NSD.3Com.COM>, priag@NSD.3Com.COM (Pria Graves) writes:

> 

>    As to Ginkgo, they've got a rather interesting life history.  The

>    ovules are pollinated in the spring, but those stinky "one inch in

>    diameter wrinkled, rotten peaches" (in the words of one of my students),

>    are _still_ ovules.  Fertilization doesn't take place until next January

>    or February.  Now that's _slow_!

> 

> So what's wrong with me - I can't smell the fruit?  Do you know specifically

> what compounds make the stink?  I can smell everything else except violets

> that any one else seems to...



it's been awhile since I've looked at the whole list, but I'm sure of

butyric acid.  I think I also smell capric and caproic acids, and maybe

some cadaverine????



Kay









==========

Subject: Re: Sorry about the nuts...

From: Baird Stafford <bstafford@bstafford.ess.harris.com>

Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 12:28:59 GMT

--------



> From: pvt54121@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (The Blue Dragon)

> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.herbs

> Subject: Sorry about the nuts...

> Date: 15 Oct 1993 18:50:03 GMT



> Message-ID: <29mrcr$dq2@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>

> NNTP-Posting-Host: uxa.cso.uiuc.edu

> 

> Mi culpa on the mentioning of ginko seeds as nuts, but that was what I've

been

> calling it for ages and no one corrected me on it.  Too bad it's someone's

pet

> peeve to get something innocently wrong botanically.

> 

> 					T.B.D.



It seems to me that "pet peeves" about taxonomical accuracy may be unneccessary

when the terminology in question is obviously a "common name" or regionalism;

only when the Latin is invoked is absolute precision required.  My parents grew

up in the Pacific Northwest; I've heard the expression "ginko nuts" most of

my life.  I still speak, also, of "litchi nuts" even though I know the fruit

is no such thing.  Posting to an existing thread would seem to me to indicate

that the poster is talking about the plant mentioned in the header (if he or

she is not, I would expect clarification in the body of the post); questions

about whether a common name is "really" applicable don't seem germane to the

discussion.



--Baird

__

Baird Stafford  (bstafford@bstafford.ess.harris.com)









==========

Subject: Re: Sorry about the nuts...

From: jeq@lachman.com (Jonathan E. Quist)

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 19:49:03 GMT

--------

In article <CEzpCB.62v@jabba.ess.harris.com> Baird Stafford <bstafford@bstafford.ess.harris.com> writes:

>It seems to me that "pet peeves" about taxonomical accuracy may be unneccessary

>when the terminology in question is obviously a "common name" or regionalism;

>only when the Latin is invoked is absolute precision required.  My parents grew

>up in the Pacific Northwest; I've heard the expression "ginko nuts" most of

>my life.  I still speak, also, of "litchi nuts" even though I know the fruit



I grew up in the U.S. Midwest; we had a gingko tree in our back yard, and

I never heard of them.  In that this is an international network, use

of common names or "regionalism" should be, at least, accompanied by

a more precise identification to avoid ambiguity.



>she is not, I would expect clarification in the body of the post); questions

>about whether a common name is "really" applicable don't seem germane to the

>discussion.



If part of the purpose of this group is to disseminate information about

possible medicinal uses of herbs, then it's quite germain.  While I don't

have any examples that pop to mind, it's quite conceivable that a

colloquial name from one part of the world may mean something quite

different in a different part of the world.  For example, in the U.S.,

"paraffin" refers to a type of wax; in the U.K., it refers to kerosene.

while both may prevent mold from growing in a jar of strawberry preserves,

I suspect that one might remain somewhat more edible than the other.



Besides, a little extra education never hurt anyone...







-- 

Jonathan E. Quist        jeq@lachman.com       Lachman Technology, Incorporated

DoD #094, EGFC #002, KotPP, KotCF '71 CL450-K4 "Gleep"   Naperville, IL

 __       "I love Boris Yeltsin.  He's kind of like Ted Baxter's

 \/   chubby older brother."  - WBEZ (Chicago) personality Aaron Freeman









==========

Subject: Re: Sorry about the nuts...

From: klier@cobra.uni.edu

Date: 18 Oct 93 19:12:43 -0500

--------

In article <1993Oct18.194903.28687@i88.isc.com>, jeq@lachman.com (Jonathan E. Quist) writes:

> In article <CEzpCB.62v@jabba.ess.harris.com> Baird Stafford <bstafford@bstafford.ess.harris.com> writes:

>>...she is not, I would expect clarification in the body of the post); 

>>questions

>>about whether a common name is "really" applicable don't seem germane to the

>>discussion.

> 

> If part of the purpose of this group is to disseminate information about

> possible medicinal uses of herbs, then it's quite germane...



There are a number of herbals-- Grieve is an example -- where information

about European and American plants with similar common names have become

so badly mixed together that the whole work becomes unreliable.  Personally,

given a choice between eating the buttercups of my childhood (Oxalis) and

true buttercups (Ranunculus), I'd prefer to know that the Oxalis flowers

in any reasonable quantity are fine, but Ranunculus has some very interesting

alkaloids.



And that's why we plant taxonomists prefer Latin binomials (which are

under strict rules about changes, and are ultimately tied to a physical

example of the plant, the type specimen) to common names...  It's _so_

much easier and more precise.



Kay Klier  Biology Dept  UNI









==========

Subject: Re: Sorry about the nuts...

From: clynne@cco.caltech.edu (Constance L. Villani)

Date: 19 Oct 1993 21:01:02 GMT

--------

Jonathan E. Quist <jeq@lachman.com> wrote:

<gingko discussion deleted>

>Besides, a little extra education never hurt anyone...



In the interest of additional education, I might add that what 

Americans call "gingko" trees are called "issyo" trees in Japan.



I found this out when we took our Japanese exchange student to

the Huntington Gardens.  The docent was going into a long explan-

ation about how the gingko trees in the Japanese garden were a

gift and blah blah blah, while we were laughing up a storm, because

"gingko" in Japanese means "bank."  (I can't remember if the spelling

is the same)  Apparently, Utsunomiya, where Yoshiko was from, is 

well-known in Japan for its gingko trees, except that they don't

call them that.



:) Connie-Lynne









==========

Subject: Need help on getting plant extract

From: linh@cv.hp.com (linh_tu)

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1993 22:50:33 GMT

--------

 I am a Hep B carrier. It probably was congenital; my brother also

 had it but he is not a carrier. I have read that Hep B carrier

 has a very good odd of getting liver cancer. My regular doctor

 has told me there is nothing he can do for me.

 However I read/found out that people treated with extract of a tropical

 plant called Phyllanthrus amarus have seen a marked decrease in Hep B

 surface antigen. Does anyone knows where I can get some of this stuff?

 Is there any place where I can order some tropical plant by mail?

 I would appreciate any help. Thanks.











==========

Subject: nightshade

From: Craig_Farquharson@mindlink.bc.ca (Craig Farquharson)

Date: 16 Oct 93 08:10:03 GMT

--------

I have some plants identified by my audubon Pacific Northwest Flowers guide

as Enchanter's Nightshade.  Black berry.  Holly lobed leaves. White flowers.

Has anyone tried this for external use?  For meditation, shamanic journeys,

out of the body stuff, I mean?  E-mail appreciated.  Thanks.



BTW if you trimmed your herb group FAQ down to say 1000 words summary, it

would be read and obeyed by first-timers like me.  I can't handle 25000 words

at $7 hour connect time!  Just a suggestion. :)











==========

Subject: Re: Sorry about the nuts

From: Laura J Zurawski <juniper@uiuc.edu>

Date: 16 Oct 1993 18:43:00 GMT

--------



Baird Stafford <bstafford@bstafford.ess.harris.com> writes:





>It seems to me that "pet peeves" about taxonomical accuracy may be unneccessary

>when the terminology in question is obviously a "common name" or regionalism;

>only when the Latin is invoked is absolute precision required.  My parents grew

>up in the Pacific Northwest; I've heard the expression "ginko nuts" most of

>my life.  I still speak, also, of "litchi nuts" even though I know the fruit

>is no such thing.  Posting to an existing thread would seem to me to indicate

>that the poster is talking about the plant mentioned in the header (if he or

>she is not, I would expect clarification in the body of the post); questions

>about whether a common name is "really" applicable don't seem germane to the

>discussion.





Funny... but I've been all over the place, and I've never heard ginkgo

seeds referred to as "nuts" before.  

Anyway, I wasn't trying to be rude or anything... just making a point that

I *thought* people might like to know... kind of a useless trivia thing. :)



Oh well.  









-- 

| Laura J Zurawski        |                  | Consider this a snappy quote,

| Ornamental Horticulture | juniper@uiuc.edu | complete with its very own 

| University of Illinois  |                  | standard disclaimer. 









==========

Subject: How can I increase my energy

From: tjj@usl.com (-ksf-+Jordan T.)

Date: 18 Oct 1993 15:37:45 GMT

--------

Hi, I was wondering if anyone could suggest any herbs that

would help me increase my energy level. Also maybe something

that would help with depression.

	Tim









==========

Subject: manic-depression

From: mkocher@berlioz.nsc.com (Mark Kocher)

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 21:05:05 GMT

--------



hi, i've been diagnosed with manic-depression (bipolar-disorder), i only get

the manic side of the 'illness' however, ( i prefer to think of it as a gift

rather than an illness).  i was wondering if there are any natural remedies

available especially for the restlessness and muscle tension associated with

a manic episode.  i went to a chinese herbalist during my last episode and

she gave me some tea which helped unfortunately she did not speak english.



	any suggestions, comments?  post or email are fine, thanks in advance.





peace



mark 









==========

Subject: Re: manic-depression

From: cuteone@eskimo.com (EarthChylde)

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 20:59:08 GMT

--------

Mark Kocher (mkocher@berlioz.nsc.com) wrote:



: hi, i've been diagnosed with manic-depression (bipolar-disorder), i only get

: the manic side of the 'illness' however, ( i prefer to think of it as a gift

: rather than an illness).  i was wondering if there are any natural remedies

: available especially for the restlessness and muscle tension associated with

: a manic episode.  i went to a chinese herbalist during my last episode and

: she gave me some tea which helped unfortunately she did not speak english.



: 	any suggestions, comments?  post or email are fine, thanks in advance.





: peace



: mark 



Try drinking chamomile tea, if you're not allergic to it, for nerves. It is

a weed that many get allergic symptoms from. I love it. It is also a

diuretic & very relaxing. I drink it during pms times or whenever I'm

feeling nervous. I am a very nervous-type of person & it acts as a natural

tranquilizer. Wonderful stuff, just don't drink it if you plan on being away

from a restroom/bathroom for a long period of time. ;) 

-- 

______________________________________________________________________________

| cuteone@eskimo.com |"Blood is thicker than water, | Reduce, Reuse, Recycle!|

| EarthChylde        | and much tastier too!"       |    1 Earth, 1 Chance   |

|____________________|______________________________|________________________|









==========

Subject: Use of common names

From: j0m1742@venus.tamu.edu (MANHART, JAMES)

Date: 18 Oct 1993 16:53 CDT

--------

There has been some discussion on whether it is appropriate to use

common names in communicating information about plants.  There are

numerous problems with common names:

1.  They are in the vernacular.  Can you imagine trying to communicate

plant identities to someone from China or Russia using common names?

2.  Many different plants have the same common name.

3.  Some widely-distributed plants have more than one common name.

4.  Most plants (>250,000) do not have a common name.



For the sake of accurate communication, scientific names are

preferred, regardless of the medium.





Jim Manhart, Dept. of Biology, Texas A&M University

College Station, TX 77843-3258, (409) 845-3356, 

email:  J-Manhart@TAMU.EDU (Internet) J0M1742@TAMVENUS (Bitnet)









==========

Subject: Blood cleansing

From: cuteone@eskimo.com (EarthChylde)

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 05:04:24 GMT

--------

I came down with a really horrible allergy to something about two months

ago, possibly a new laundry soap we tried but not sure. I went to a dr. &

they said it looked like an allergy of some sort & gave me some cream that

contained steroids called "Fluocinonide" to use that has a long list pf

precautions & says to use very sparingly on small areas, well, I'm afraid

to use it because I am constantly itching over 80% of my body & am covered

in bumps & scratches. On my hands & feet are lots of itchy little clear

blister-like bumps that come & go....some days alot, other days only a few.

I eat normal & do not take drugs & haven't drank in ages (& only have maybe

two or three drinks a year anyway).....I am very scared & do not know what

it is. I've tried baking soda baths but they don't help. I've tried taking

an old nerve med. I was on for itching a few months back but it didn't seem

to help. My itching keeps me awake at night & in the last week, my husband,

who is a very calm, very healthy guy has been getting both kinds of bumps

(little blister like ones & regular zit looking ones) all over him & the

severe itchy's too. A person I met at a party once said that she was

allergic to an ingredient in some soap she used once & had the exact

symptoms as we do for 6 months. she told me that I need to clean my

blood...she said to use an herb called something like Euchinea (?) &

dandilion & some others...I will ask her again in a few days, she is on

another bbs I call. What is blood cleansing? Is it safe? thanks.....I'm very

low income & cannot afford to see a dr. for a while & need help. I allready

posted this message a while back but didn't get any answered that I noticed. 

-- 

______________________________________________________________________________

| cuteone@eskimo.com |"Blood is thicker than water, | Reduce, Reuse, Recycle!|

| EarthChylde        | and much tastier too!"       |    1 Earth, 1 Chance   |

|____________________|______________________________|________________________|









==========

Subject: Re: Blood cleansing

From: vankemp@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu (AndreaMrow)

Date: 22 Oct 93 17:39:34 -0600

--------

Re: Blood Cleansing



John, i read your article on the yarrow infusion, ginger bath....



I would very much like to try this, but beings that i'm sensitive to

petroleum products i was wondering what you would suggest i use instead

that wouldn't just lift off in the hot water like most oils would.



Andrea













==========

Subject: RE: Blood Cleansing

From: aphrk@Msu.oscs.montana.edu

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 12:18:19

--------

Hello:  "Blood cleansing" is an old-fashioned term that just means that

certain foods and herbs help the blood to discharge waste products and

to move things along without blockage.  "Blood purifiers" is the same

term.  

   For example, if you were to have a lot of fats and waste products in

your blood, the oxygen and nutrients would not be getting where they need

to get and the waste products may be creating symptoms like greasy skin.

   Allergies are one of the most difficult problems to resolve.  Your 

immune system is involved.  For example, your friend said that it took her

six months before her symptoms stopped.  This could be due to the fact that

the allergen was still in the air, on the clothes, etc and was reinfecting

her for that period of time.  Identifying the substance which is causing

all this is the most important thing.

   The anti-allergic medication you have may be a very beneficial tool for

you to use for a period of time.  I wouldn't know if you could just use it

for sleeping at night or just when things get really bad.  There is some

hypotheses that overuse or long-term use of these medications result in 

a depressed immune function later.  It's your call.  

   Herbs that would help in this situation would not be pallative, but would

help strengthen your body.  However, stimulating the immune system may be 

the last thing you want to do.  That is, Echinacea (possibly the herb your

friend suggested) will stimulate the immune system.  

   You really need to find a qualified person in your area to address your

problem.  You can fiddle around with herbs and make things worse or not

very helpful..or you might get lucky and find the right combination for your

individual body system.  However, I would start with the yellow pages looking

for an alternative health care person such as a naturapathic doctor (if your

state allows such).  

   Your diet is a good place to start.  Get some books on diet and allergy,

High stress will probably make things worse, so deal with that too.  

   Hope this has helped.  Best wishes for a speedy recovery.



Robyn Klein, Herbalist (American Herbalists Guild)

Bozeman, Montana











==========

Subject: Blood Cleansing

From: smetz@tamu.edu (Sue Metz)

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 17:09:33 GMT

--------

	Hi!  I am interested in the 'blood cleansing' bath that someone 

posted earlier.  I was going to print it off but lost it somehow.  

How about a request for a second printing?

Thanks Sue









==========

Subject: Slides  and Stories of the Oregon Wilderness by Lou Gold

From: jayg@next19csc.wam.umd.edu (Picasso with an e)

Date: 19 Oct 1993 23:54:12 GMT

--------

 

Lou Gold, who has spent the last few years living in the old growth  

forest, will be talking about them on Thursday October 28,1993 at 7:00 in 

Lefrak hall of the University of Maryland at College Park.  



Lou Gold has been credited with sounding the alarm about the destruction  

of our old growth forests.  



This is his only D.C. area appearance.  The event is sponsored partly by  

Mary Pirg and is being run through ECO (The Environmental Conservation 

Organization of the University of Md. at College Park) which has been  

running a recycling center for the past 21 years.





Please send all questions to jayg@wam.umd.edu



I will get back to you as soon as possible.



Thank you



P.S. this is a free event









==========

Subject: Gingko and banks

From: pvt54121@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (The Blue Dragon)

Date: 20 Oct 1993 19:25:43 GMT

--------

In answer to one of the replies to the article about gingkos, the Japanese

word for bank is "ginko", without the "g".  I found this out when I was 

searching for magazine articles on gingkos.



-- 

*******************************************************************************

*     pvt54121@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu     *     To be, or not to be, that is the    *

*      University of Illinois       *     is the question.          Hamlet    *

******************************************************************************* 









==========

Subject: Tropical fruit plants

From: pvt54121@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (The Blue Dragon)

Date: 20 Oct 1993 19:29:32 GMT

--------

Does anyone know how to prolong the life of papaya plants grown indoors without

the benefit of a greenhouse?  The tree that I have is losing leaves and looks

sick.  And also, is it feasible to grow pomergranites, longans, lychees, guavas

and other tropical fruits as house plants in the US?



-- 

*******************************************************************************

*     pvt54121@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu     *     To be, or not to be, that is the    *

*      University of Illinois       *     is the question.          Hamlet    *

******************************************************************************* 









==========

Subject: Information on Seracee...

From: tmurphy@sun490.fdu.edu (Tom Murphy)

Date: 21 Oct 93 02:29:58 GMT

--------



     Below is some information on a little known herb known as Seracee.

If anyone else on this newsgroup has more information on this rather rare

herb, PLEASE e-mail me!



	Thanks!



					-Tom   (tmurphy@sun490.fdu.edu)



===========================================================================

                  General Information on -Momordica Charantia- 



   Gourd family, widely used in traditional medicine in the Orient and

Carribean.  The immature fruits are eaten by the Orientals as a vegetable, and

in the Phillipines, the young leaves are used as seasoning.  The plant is also

known to certain elderly African-americans of the southeastern US.  The plant

should be shared freely along with this information.





                                  Description:



   Vines with square sided stems, slender, weak, creeping or climbing stems,

musky odor.  Leaves alternate, palmate, dull-green, flabby, with 5 to 7 toothed

leaflets.  Fruit 1 to 8 inches long or more, bright orange when ripe, oval,

pointed, fleshy, splits into 3 parts which curl back, revealing glistening,

bright-red, moist sticky arils (seed coating) enclosing irregularly shaped

elliptic brown seeds.



   Common names and their associated cultures are: Bitterweed, Southeastern US;

Serasee, Carribean islands; Bitter melon, Oriental immigrants to the US;

Carillon, Latin America; Mexicane, Cajun "traeteur" of Louisiana, USA; Kho Qua,

Vietnam; K'u Kua, China; also, Balsam Pear, Boston Pear, Boston Apple, Bitter

Gourd, Bitter Cucumber, Concombre Amer, Bitterleaf, Ampalayo.



   Raw fruits and seeds contain more of the active principle than leaves, so

caution should be taken when dealing with these.  Leaves may be eaten raw in

small quantities.  A pregnant woman should not use momordica, as it is an

ingredient in some abortifacent mixtures.  Although the plant is slightly toxic

in the raw state, and less so when prepared, it is safe to use externally, and

may be prepared in many ways for either use.



   Any new information should be forwarded to the co-author Tony Johnson at the

address below.  The co-author is particularly interested in chemical analyses,

recipes, anecdotes of treatments, experimental results, and references to this

plant in published works.  Although this plant is well known to certain non-

western cultures, it is virtually unknown in the US and Europe.





                                  References:



   -Wild Plants for Survival in South Florida- Julia F.  Morton, Trend

House, 1306 W.  Kennnedy Blvd, Tampa, Fla, 1974.  The botanical description

above was taken from this work.

   -A Barefoot Doctor's Manual- The American translation of the Official

Chineese Paramedical Manual, Running Press, 38 S Ninteenth St.,

Philadelphia, PA 19103

   -In addition, it is packed for shipping by Emballes Par China National,

Kwangsi, People's Republic of China.

   -J. Dee Pinkney, UNO Box 727, New Orleans, LA 70148

   -Tony Johnson, 6226 Wainwright, New Orleans, Louisiana 70122



 

   A Serasee Alliance is forming.  This will consist of people who are dedicated

to cultivating, studying, using, and sharing this plant.  We will collect

contact information on these people, to share with other people who want to use

or study this plant.  If you would like to have your name added to the Serasee

Alliance, please send your name, address, and any personal information you want

to share to Tony Johnson at the above address.  Names from this list will be

passed on only to people who request a local contact or those who are working on

similiar areas with Serasee.  Thank you.







                               Uses of Momordica



   The leaves and fruits may be picked from the plant as needed, and used in

many ways, dried or fresh, internally and externally.  The leaves and fruits

taken from the plant at the end of the season may be preserved by drying,

tincture, canning, or other ways, for use when the fresh plant is not available.

For external use, the leaves may be crushed and the juice applied to the skin.

This has been used for insect bites, bee stings, burns, contact rashes, and

small wounds.  The ripe berries may also be preserved in spirits such as whiskey

or vodka, and this applied to the skin.  The leaves may be boiled to make a

decoction.  Enough leaves should be used to give the decoction a strong bitter

taste and impart color.



   This decoction is drunk as preventative or treatment for many problems, such

as stomachache, fever, infectious diseases, arthritis, diabetes, hypertension,

even cancer.  The decoction may also be used as a skin wash, or added to the

bathwater.  To make the taste of the decoction more tolorable, the leaves may be

boiled with mint, or the decoction may be tempered with sugar, honey, or milk.

The green fruits and leaves are used by Oriental peoples as a vegetable.  Care

must be taken in their preparation, since the fruit is slightly toxic when raw,

less so when cooked.



   The leaves may be finely chopped and added to cooked meat and vegetable

dishes during the last few minutes of cooking.  They impart a mild curry-like

taste, bitter but not unpleasantly so.  This suggests an easy way to introduce

this plant to a person who will not drink the decoction.  Green berries may be

sliced thin, dried, and stored for use when the fresh plant is not available.

These dried berry slices may be reconstituted in water and used in the same way

as the fresh plant; or they may be boiled for a decoction or eaten as a

vegetable.  Although the raw leaves are said to be slightly toxic, small

quantities can be dipped in honey, chewed slightly, and swallowed by some

individuals.  They can also be finely chopped and mixed with other raw greens

for salad.  If a single leaf, eaten in this manner, causes no discomfort, this

is another way of gaining the medicinal benefits of momordica.  The arils have a

sweet taste with only slight bitter undertones.  They should not be sucked

directly from the seeds, however, since mouth enzymes may damage the seeds and

make them unsuitable for planting.  Instead, rub or wash arils from the seeds,

and eat the arils.  If any other uses of this plant is known, please forward

them to this address: Tony Johnson, 6226 Wainwright, New Orleans, Louisiana

70122.





                          Anecdotal Uses of Momordica



   Fresh leaves, crushed and applied to insect bites, relieve itching and

lessens or sometimes prevents formation of welts or sores.  The same effect can

be had from fresh berries, reconstituted dried berries, or berries perserved in

tincture.  The decoction relieves skin rashes and heat rash.  The crushed leaves

have been used to relieve the pain of wasp stings, and no welts formed.  A

decoction of the leaves may be taken at the onset of infectious diseases, and

the course of the disease will be mitigated.  It may be taken during cold and

flu epidemics as a prophylactic.  It has been used to wash arthritic limbs,

feverish children, and infected skin wounds; the effect has been strikingly

beneficial.  The decoction, taken regularly, has been used to regulate blood

sugar and control diabetes.



   A poultice of honey and crushed leaves was applied to second-degree gasoline

burns.  The person also ate raw leaves, in small quantities, dipped in honey and

chewed slightly.  The burns healed quickly, were totally free of infection, and

no scaring was found after healing.





   A man had been tested HIV positive and was beginnning to show signs of

illness.  I gave him the leaves and seeds of momordica, and instructed him to

drink a decoction of the leaves, plant the seeds, tend to the plant, and use the

plant in any way his intuition suggested.  He did so, adding leaves to his food,

and using decoctions in other ways as well.  A year or so later, he was free of

all signs of illness, and continues to use mormordica for continued wellness,

often discovering new uses.





             "Bitter Melon Soup", a traditional Vietnameese recipe 



   Blanche several green melons in boiling water, cut lengthwise, and remove

seeds.  Stuff with a "pate" of meat if used, or soy protein, onions, and

seasoning.  Tie the melons together with rubber bands, and return them to

boiling water.  Cook for about an hour and salt to taste.  My informant remarked

"it is very good for the liver," and added that the melon may also be sauteed

like summer squash, but "the soup is better for the liver."





                        Spiritual Aspects of Herbal Use



   Remember, when using herbs for medicine, that you are using the gift of the

life of a sentient being.  Always ask permission of the bush before taking of

it, and always give thanks and leave an offering.  Some people leave a coin or

semiprecious stone in the ground, or a few drops of honey, wine, milk, or some

similar substance.  Perhaps the bush would also appreciate an offering of

compost, Miracle-Grow, or some other plant food.  Some people cup their hands

around the plant and meditate or pray, giving energy and blessings to the plant

in return for its gift of life.  Some people say that you should not take from

the first plant you "talk to", but from others around it.  Be considerate of the

plant; it is a sentient being.  Use a sharp knife or pair of scissors for taking

from it, to minimise damage and pain to the plant.  Take only what you need; not

so much as to damage the plant.



   Momordica has a very "talkative" spirit, and seems eager to instruct the

seeker in new uses.  Be open in your intuition for new ways to use this plant.

Beware of high doses taken in a new way, as momordica is very strong; take it

easy with new uses.  This is a versatile plant; come to it whatever your health

need is, and allow its spirit to suggest ways to help you.  If you find a new

use that is particularly interesting, please let me know at the following

mailing address: Tony Johnson, 6226 Wainwright, New Orleans, Louisiana 70122, so

that we can pass this knowledge along in future revisions of this file.



   The best time to pick from any plant is in mid-morning, after the dew is

dried but before the sun reaches maximum height.  Except in cases of iimmediate

need, do not pick in the evening or at night, or immediately after a rain, as

the plant's vigor is diminished at these times.  The best time to pick is on a

waxing moon.  A woman on her period should not handle live plants unless this is

necessary, since she is in a personal dark of the moon time, and during the dark

of the moon the life force retreats so this could diminish the vigor of the

plant.



   Right now we are in a time of rapid transition and Spirit, in Its mercy, has

placed certain highly versitile medicine plants on earth for the healing of all

diseases.  Momordica is one of these plants.  So always use it with gratitude to

the plant and to the Higher Power, in whatever form you understand.













        Planting and Horticulture Instructions for -Momordica Charantia-



   Soak seeds in water for several days while moon is waxing or new.  Prepare

containers of good potting soil, well watered & drained.  Plant seeds about 1

inch (3 cm) deep & 2 inches (6 cm) apart.  Cover containers with cellophane &

set in a warm, dark place.



   When seeds sprout, remove cellophane & set near a sunny window; keep soil

moist.  When seedlings have produced 2 sets of true leaves, they should be

transplanted to the ground, or if this is not possible, transplant to a large

container of good soil (at most 2 or 3 plants to 5 gallons soil).



   Transplant outdoors after season has become warm.  Prepare a location with

partial sun & good soil, well-watered & well-drained.  Provide support for

vines, with no other type of vine sharing this support (otherwise harvest will

be difficult).  The plant, a tropical annual in the gourd family, may need

assistance to produce seeds if climate is insufficiently warm or moist.  After

several months, the plant will begin to produce male & female yellow flowers

about 2-3 cm in diameter.  Male flowers, more numerous, have a yellow center &

conical base, while female flowers have a green center & small bump at the base.

When a female flower appears, cross pollinate by gently touching several male

flower centers with a soft implement (eg, feather, bit of soft paper, small

pointed paintbrush, or fingertip if one has a light touch) & transferring pollen

grains to center of female flower.  If females flowers are numerous & bees are

present, this procedure is not needed.



   Few pests plague this plant, since leaves are very bitter.  If pests appear,

control by sprinkling plant with a mixture of cayenne pepper, garlic powder, &

water, or with a light solution of soapy water.



   Throughout the growing season, leaves may be taken from the plant to preserve

by drying for use when fresh plant is not available.  Take older leaves in mid-

morning after dew has dried & no rain has fallen for several days.  When fruits

develop, they will be soft, light green gourds with a bumpy or irregular

surface.  Allow to mature until they become orange, when they will split open to

reveal a number of seeds.  These seeds are covered in a sticky, bright red aril.

Since the arils attract ants & birds, pick mature fruit when it begins to split.

Scoop out seeds, wash thoroughly to remove arils, & set seeds out to dry.  When

dry, seeds may be wrapped loosely in clean brown paper & stored to plant next

season.  At the same time preserve the mature fruits.  As an alternate way to

remove arils, spread the seeds on a large, clean piece of cloth and allow to dry

for a few days.  Then, the arils may be easily rubbed from the seeds.

 

   In temperate climates, the plant begins to lose vigor after about six to nine

months.  It will produce a large number of female flowers, & at the same time

begin to weaken noticeably.  At this time it should be harvested.  Fruits which

are nearly mature should be allowed to ripen, but may be picked so that seeds

can be obtained.  The immature fruits are removed & preserved by drying,

canning, or other ways.



   Near the end of the season the vines may be removed from their support &

spread out to dry.  While doing this, remove & discard any leaves which are

defective.  To preserve immature fruits, slice thinly & dry by spreading on a

screen or blanket or stringing loosely.  They should be set in partial sun &

protected from moisture & insects.  To preserve mature fruits, wash & cut into

small pieces, & place in a container of spirits such as vodka or whiskey.  This

may be strained for a tincture, or used as is.  Immature fruits may also be

cooked & eaten fresh, canned, or preserved in other standard ways.  The seeds

may be planted & the cycle begin again when weather is warm, or at any time for

indoor cultivation.

=============================================================================









==========

Subject: RE: lead and blood cleansing herbs

From: aphrk@Msu.oscs.montana.edu

Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 12:04:04

--------

Mike:  lead is pretty nasty stuff and is held in the body in "safe"

reservoirs.  By encouraging it to move out of these reservoirs the

lead therefore comes back into contact with the body tissues.  From

what I've read, the lead can do more damage this way and still be

reabsorbed into the body.  Suggestion is to not mess with this sort of

thing yourself, but to go to some qualified clinicians...i.e., naturapaths

who work with body chemistry.  Offhand I can't think of any herbs that

will encourage the evacuation of lead from repositories, only herbs that

can protect certain organs from absorbing...possibly milk thistle seed,

but look this up.  



Robyn Klein











==========

Subject: FDA herb proposals (was Re: TriChromalene(sp?))

From: music@erich.triumf.ca (FRED W. BACH)

Date: 22 Oct 1993 10:23 PST

--------

In article <eagleCEz6G3.Mur@netcom.com>, eagle@netcom.com (David Eagle)

 writes...

#Bryant (mycol1@triton.unm.edu) wrote:

# 

# 

#: Fred:

# 

#:    I've not read through the entire thread, but I'd like to offer some

#: arrogant, young observations:

# 

#: 1. You don't have to be uneduacted to regret mortality.

# 

#: 2.  Your reverence for bashing the only systematic way of gathering information

#: about the world digusts me. Laugh away at scientists. They've still contributed tremendously to your standard of living.  

# 

#: 3.  Eat your damn herbs and shut up; the FDA, as I read them, are only demanding the removal of unproven claims for secondary metabolites.

# 

# 

#:   Apologies if I misunderstood your stance.  You were less than articulate.

# 

# 

#: Bryant

# 

# 

#Wake up and smell the roses folks, get a copy of the FDA proposals. They not



   Gee.  You're too nice!  I always say "wake up and smell the **manure**

  because human nature stinks^H^H^H^H^H^H is not all it is cracked up to be".



#only want to take away the right to share information, valid as well as

#hype. They have public stated that they intent to reclassify most of the

#major herbs as "drugs" that will require a MD prescription to acquire. Also

#these herbs would have to be totaly regulated and subject to testing that

#only the pharmaceutical companies could afford. This means that your

#tincture of echinacea would jump in price at least 10 fold, i.e. $50 dollars

#a bottle instead of $10, and don't forget the cost of the seeing the doctor

#for a prescription. The FDA proposal also states that there interest in the

#regulation of herbs is to protect the environment of drug research and

#development (the FDA's words). Since when is the FDA's job to protect and

#promote drug development. Isn't the FDA suppose to be regulate the drug

#industry to protect us the people.

# 

#Why all the ego battles, folks. The issue here is rights, access to

#information, herbs, and nutritional supplements (oh yeah, they also

#mentioned reclassifying all high potency supplements as drugs also).

# 

#David Eagle

#-- 

#  eagle@netcom.com

#  David Eagle, OMD, LAc

#  Doctor of Oriental Medicine & Acupuncturist

#  Santa Cruz, CA



   Since Bryant is quoted here, I would like to say that Bryant and I

 have corresponded on a friendly basis.  He comes across as a reasonable,

 kind, and polite person, and I have NO beef with him.



   David,



   Thank you, Sir!.  I have not got these proposals myself but I did read

 extracts from them and comments like yours at the Health-Food coop in

 Bellingham, Washington.  I have not been down there since that time, and

 it doesn't look like I will be going soon <too bad>.



   Some young folk on this group are very well meaning but quite naive,

 even though some of them are through Grad School.  I have worked with

 folks just through Grad School for years, and I can testify that as a

 group they have a lot to learn about life and money and human nature.

 Usually they know all about what they learned in school, being specialists

 in their specific areas.  But that is just the problem: their specialization.

 They have forgotten about the importance of being 'generalists' too, which

 can only be attained by a lifetime of observations and event-correlations.



    I will admit that they are not 'kids' in the sense of their being

 children, but they are 'kids' in the sense of their not knowing about

 life and government and politics and money and power and current events

 in light of history.  And sometimes they let their status and their degrees

 go to their heads.



   The whole issue is not *really* about health, but it is about MONEY and

 power.  The health-food and herbal industry here in BC rivals the lumber

 industry now (our biggest industry) and it must be the same in the USA.  No

 wonder they are scared, and no wonder the MD's want in on the dough!  Not

 only that, it is a matter of prestige :



 <turn on cynicism and sarcasm here>

   I mean, how can they let those "uneducated" country bumpkins take herbs by

 themselves or how can they let those "unschooled" herbalists prescribe/sell

 herbs?  I mean, those MD *graduates* are the only people in the world who

 really know *anything*, and so the MD's and their friends should do all the

 prescribing and selling of things that are good for you.  Yeah, sure, and

 if some electrical unions had their way, the average householder would not

 be able to change his own light bulbs, since the average guy is such an

 idiot....

 <end cynicism and sarcasm>



 Fred W. Bach ,    Operations Group        |  Internet: music@erich.triumf.ca

 TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility)    |  Voice:  604-222-1047 loc 327/278

 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS            |  FAX:    604-222-1074

 University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA   V6T 2A3



 These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question.

 They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers.









==========

Subject: Tinea

From: Ron_McMillan@mindlink.bc.ca (Ron McMillan)

Date: 23 Oct 93 07:43:01 GMT

--------

   Greetings gentles.  Does anyone out there have a good remedy for Tinea

versacoloura?  The usual quickie Selsun Blue cure leaves that awful smell,

and I for one would rather have the spots!  I suppose that a natural selenium

source would suffice?  I am new to all this (BOY! am I new...) so any help is

welcome...



Thanks.









==========

Subject: Re: Tinea

From: klier@cobra.uni.edu

Date: 25 Oct 93 13:17:30 -0500

--------

In article <30899@mindlink.bc.ca>, Ron_McMillan@mindlink.bc.ca (Ron McMillan) writes:

>    Greetings gentles.  Does anyone out there have a good remedy for Tinea

> versacoloura?  The usual quickie Selsun Blue cure leaves that awful smell,

> and I for one would rather have the spots!  I suppose that a natural selenium

> source would suffice?  I am new to all this (BOY! am I new...) so any help is

> welcome...



Selenium compounds stink.  Literally.  So do selenophytes (plants that 

pick up selenium from the soil).  Tinea is a fungal disease, and like

many fungal skin problems, it's often a continuing problem.  Cinnamon

has been reported to cure fungal leaf diseases in plants... I suppose

it might be worth a try on humans!   On plants, you dust the powder liberally

over the leaf spots... I suppose a bandage would be necessary on more

motile life forms...  ;-)



Anyhow, that's about the best smelling fungal "cure" I can think of..



Kay Klier  Biology Dept  UNI









==========

Subject: Re: Tinea

From: kludge@grissom.larc.nasa.gov (Scott Dorsey)

Date: 25 Oct 1993 19:05:37 GMT

--------

In article <1993Oct25.131730.18442@cobra.uni.edu> klier@cobra.uni.edu writes:

>In article <30899@mindlink.bc.ca>, Ron_McMillan@mindlink.bc.ca (Ron McMillan) writes:

>>    Greetings gentles.  Does anyone out there have a good remedy for Tinea

>> versacoloura?  The usual quickie Selsun Blue cure leaves that awful smell,

>> and I for one would rather have the spots!  I suppose that a natural selenium

>> source would suffice?  I am new to all this (BOY! am I new...) so any help is

>> welcome...

>

>Selenium compounds stink.  Literally.  So do selenophytes (plants that 

>pick up selenium from the soil).  Tinea is a fungal disease, and like

>many fungal skin problems, it's often a continuing problem.  Cinnamon

>has been reported to cure fungal leaf diseases in plants... I suppose

>it might be worth a try on humans!   On plants, you dust the powder liberally

>over the leaf spots... I suppose a bandage would be necessary on more

>motile life forms...  ;-)



How about pine tar?  That used to be very popular for such things.  Either

that, or coal tar products...

---scott

-- 

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: lrudolph@black.clarku.edu (Lee Rudolph)

Date: 23 Oct 93 12:22:03 GMT

--------

In alt.consciousness, of all places, ralph@thecoast.gvg.tek.com 

(Ralph Williams) writes (with 100-column lines, follow-up set 

to alt.conspiracy, and distribution set to usa--all changed):



>I'm searching to see if there is such a thing as a 

>totally organic method of Birth

>Control. My suspicion is that there is, and the information 

>has been supressed by

>large drug and latex comanies. I was talking with a friend 

>who knows a couple that

>used something like the woman eathing Carrot Seeds before 

>and/or after making love and it worked for

>them. I'm going to try and contact them to see where 

>they got their information.

>Does anybody else have any suggestions or books they can recommend on this

>subject. Any information would be greatly appreciated. 



>Thanks,

>Ralph			



I thought this was a worthy follow-on to the "100-year lightbulb"

thread.



Lee "I suspect he wants a method which is both totally organic

and *effective*, though he didn't say so" Rudolph









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: ggawboy@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Galen F Gawboy)

Date: 24 Oct 1993 05:57:10 GMT

--------

In article <camillaCFDu14.8DA@netcom.com> camilla@netcom.com (Camilla Cracchiolo) writes:

>Lee Rudolph (lrudolph@black.clarku.edu) wrote:

>

>: Lee "I suspect he wants a method which is both totally organic

>: and *effective*, though he didn't say so" Rudolph

>

>The last 'organic' birth control method I heard of was rhythm.

>

>It is named 'Vatican roulette' for good reason....

>



Oblamejoke:



Q: What do you call couples who practice the rhythm method?







A: Parents.

















==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: ross-c@scs.leeds.ac.uk (R Clement)

Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1993 16:14:43 GMT

--------

In article <2ad5fm$p96@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> ggawboy@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Galen F Gawboy) writes:

>Oblamejoke:

>

>Q: What do you call couples who practice the rhythm method?

>

>A: Parents.

>



Not only 'Parents', but 'Catholics' too. In actual fact, Catholics are very nice

people, but occasionally they act a little off-beat.



Cheers,



Ross-c

>

>

>













==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)

Date: 24 Oct 1993 10:00:45 GMT

--------

In article <camillaCFDu14.8DA@netcom.com>, camilla@netcom.com (Camilla Cracchiolo) writes:

=Lee Rudolph (lrudolph@black.clarku.edu) wrote:

=: In alt.consciousness, of all places, ralph@thecoast.gvg.tek.com 

=: (Ralph Williams) writes (with 100-column lines, follow-up set 

=: to alt.conspiracy, and distribution set to usa--all changed):

=

=: >I'm searching to see if there is such a thing as a 

=: >totally organic method of Birth

=: >Control. My suspicion is that there is, and the information 

=: >has been supressed by

=: >large drug and latex comanies. I was talking with a friend 

=: >who knows a couple that

=: >used something like the woman eathing Carrot Seeds before 

=: >and/or after making love and it worked for

=: >them. I'm going to try and contact them to see where 

=: >they got their information.

=: >Does anybody else have any suggestions or books they can recommend on this

=: >subject. Any information would be greatly appreciated. 

=

=: >Thanks,

=: >Ralph			

=

=: I thought this was a worthy follow-on to the "100-year lightbulb"

=: thread.

=

=: Lee "I suspect he wants a method which is both totally organic

=: and *effective*, though he didn't say so" Rudolph

=

=The last 'organic' birth control method I heard of was rhythm.

=

=It is named 'Vatican roulette' for good reason....



There are quite a few 100% effective organic methods of birth control.  Let's

see now, there's pumiliotoxin (secreted by a South American frog), various

compounds with cyanide groups found in nature, digitalis (found naturally in

foxglove), and so on.



Oh, the question was about non-fatal natural methods for birth control?  Well,

there's abstinence.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL



Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My

understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So

unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my

organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to

hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: kokillou@eos.ncsu.edu (KYLE OLIN KILLOUGH)

Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 02:33:27 GMT

--------



Oh now that  is just what they wanted for an answer there... NOT... 

if your gonna post something, don't waste our time, post something

with a viable point... if they wanted that for an answer they wouldn't 

have been asking the damn question. What are you thinking man?









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: jrs@netcom.com (John Switzer)

Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 21:24:27 GMT

--------

In article <1993Oct25.023327.15239@ncsu.edu> kokillou@eos.ncsu.edu (KYLE OLIN KILLOUGH) writes:

>

>Oh now that  is just what they wanted for an answer there... NOT... 

>if your gonna post something, don't waste our time, post something

>with a viable point... if they wanted that for an answer they wouldn't 

>have been asking the damn question. What are you thinking man?



You AFUers ever get the idea that the rest of the net thinks of us 

in uncomplimentary terms? Like maybe we're net pond scum? Or am I just

being paranoid? 

-- 

John Switzer             | Proof that Truth in Advertising laws aren't 

                         |  being enforced:

CompuServe: 74076,1250   | "Sure I have a sweet tooth, but I also have a mind."

Internet: jrs@netcom.com |  -- Cher, doing a commercial for Equal sweetner









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: music@erich.triumf.ca (FRED W. BACH)

Date: 25 Oct 1993 16:11 PST

--------

In article <1993Oct25.023327.15239@ncsu.edu>, kokillou@eos.ncsu.edu (KYLE OLIN KILLOUGH) writes...

# 

#Oh now that  is just what they wanted for an answer there... NOT... 

#if your gonna post something, don't waste our time, post something

#with a viable point... if they wanted that for an answer they wouldn't 

#have been asking the damn question. What are you thinking man?



   You didn't think hard enough to quote the text to which you are objecting,

 so I must therefore assume that it was to my friend Carl J. Lydic's cynical

 post.  Carl often assumes that others are capable of catching his wit and

 appreciating his sense of humor, but many don't catch his subtleties or

 appreciate his dry wit.  Then again, many people don't like Don Rickles

 either.   At one time I didn't, but then I began to appreciate his cutting

 edge as I got older.



   Many people have a dim view of Birth Control (I am not necessarily

 speaking for myself here), and others wish to promote every kind of

 Birth Control that they can think of.   Most would agree that Carl has just

 as much rignt to hold his views as those others do to hold their views.

 I would agree with you, however, if you feel that there might be a danger

 in someone's misinterpreting his humor.



  If you try to get to know Carl, you will find him to be a very valuable

 source of good information on a broad variety of topics.



 Fred W. Bach ,    Operations Group        |  Internet: music@erich.triumf.ca

 TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility)    |  Voice:  604-222-1047 loc 327/278

 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS            |  FAX:    604-222-1074

 University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA   V6T 2A3



 These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question.

 They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers.









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: clynne@cco.caltech.edu (Constance L. Villani)

Date: 25 Oct 1993 19:03:43 GMT

--------

Carl J Lydick <carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU> wrote:

>There are quite a few 100% effective organic methods of birth control. 

>

>Oh, the question was about non-fatal natural methods for birth control?  Well,

>there's abstinence.



Or periodic abstinence, as in the Billings or sympto-thermal methods.  These

are NOT "rhythm" although they are often confused with it.  These methods

are so easy to use and effective that WHO taught them to illiterate women in 

third-world countries with 99% effectiveness.  The other great thing about 

these methods is that they work for choosing when to CAUSE pregnancy, too.

And they're free - and they work in irregular women, too, in fact, an added

side benefit is that irregular women can tell when they are going to begin 

menstruation (+/- four days).  My mother (WAY irregular periods) has used this

method effectively ever since the birth of my baby brother, 20 years ago.  We

have ONE little sister, and she was planned.



:) Connie-Lynne



ObPeeveAboutTheJokes:  The Catholic Church never has and never will 

endorse Rhythm, because it doesn't work.  It came into vogue in the

sixties, because people didn't know any better.

 









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: cecilw@access.isc-br.com (Cecil Williams)

Date: 26 Oct 93 17:43:21 GMT

--------



>=:  ralph@thecoast.gvg.tek.com 

>=

>=: >I'm searching to see if there is such a thing as a 

>=: >totally organic method of Birth

>=: >Control. My suspicion is that there is, and the information 

>=: >has been supressed by

>=: >large drug and latex comanies. I was talking with a friend 

>=: >who knows a couple that

>=: >used something like the woman eathing Carrot Seeds before 

>=: >and/or after making love and it worked for

>=: >them. I'm going to try and contact them to see where 

>=: >they got their information.

>=: >Does anybody else have any suggestions or books they can recommend on this

>=: >subject. Any information would be greatly appreciated. 

>=

>=: >Thanks,

>=: >Ralph			

>=



 carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU writes:

>There are quite a few 100% effective organic methods of birth control.  Let's

>see now, there's pumiliotoxin (secreted by a South American frog), various

>compounds with cyanide groups found in nature, digitalis (found naturally in

>foxglove), and so on.

>

>Oh, the question was about non-fatal natural methods for birth control?  Well,

>there's abstinence.





Actually, I suspect abstinence is the cause of a GREAT many homicides 

and suicides, and therefore is NOT a truly "non-fatal" natural method of 

birth-control at all..





Cecil

cecilw@access.isc-br.com













==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: avk@hafnium.cchem.berkeley.edu (Tony Konashenok)

Date: 27 Oct 1993 02:10:03 GMT

--------

Regarding gossypol: yes, it is a component of cottonseed oil, one of the 

substances responsible for its yellow color. There was some research done 

a few years ago, and, as far as I remember, gossypol proved to be efficient. 

However, the effect is cumulative: when a male starts taking it, his sperm

count gradually drops, and comes down to zero (or almost zero) in about two

months. Same time is needed to restore fertility after one stops taking it.

However, the researchers were in great doubt whether using gossypol for

years wouldn't cause permanent sterility.



-- 

Tony Konashenok   avk@hafnium.cchem.berkeley.edu   (510)843-5632 (home)

University of California, Berkeley                 (510)642-5831 (office)



Strauss research group, Latimer Hall, UC Berkeley, Berkeley CA 94720, U.S.A.









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: bevan@aa.wl.com (Beth Bevan)

Date: 25 Oct 1993 13:51:27 GMT

--------

Lee Rudolph (lrudolph@black.clarku.edu) wrote:

: In alt.consciousness, of all places, ralph@thecoast.gvg.tek.com 

: (Ralph Williams) writes (with 100-column lines, follow-up set 

: to alt.conspiracy, and distribution set to usa--all changed):



: >I'm searching to see if there is such a thing as a 

: >totally organic method of Birth

: >Control. My suspicion is that there is, and the information 

: >has been supressed by

: >large drug and latex comanies. I was talking with a friend 

: >who knows a couple that

: >used something like the woman eathing Carrot Seeds before 

: >and/or after making love and it worked for

: >them. I'm going to try and contact them to see where 

: >they got their information.

: >Does anybody else have any suggestions or books they can recommend on this

: >subject. Any information would be greatly appreciated. 



: >Thanks,

: >Ralph			



The sympto-thermal method is totally organic and has been used

by various family members and acquaintances of mine for years with 

success, but it requires you to be committed to monitoring your

body. There are of course many abortificants in the plant world,

again these have been used by people I know with success, but its

not something I would recommend. Any good book on birth control

can give you information on the sympto-thermal method.



Its interesting to me that most of the responses to this post which

were of no value at all came from males. I wonder how big a joke it

would be if they were faced with our choices for birth control.









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: kludge@grissom.larc.nasa.gov (Scott Dorsey)

Date: 26 Oct 1993 00:56:08 GMT

--------

In article <2aglkv$3h3@reeve.research.aa.wl.com> bevan@aa.wl.com (Beth Bevan) writes:

>

>The sympto-thermal method is totally organic and has been used

>by various family members and acquaintances of mine for years with 

>success, but it requires you to be committed to monitoring your

>body. There are of course many abortificants in the plant world,

>again these have been used by people I know with success, but its

>not something I would recommend. Any good book on birth control

>can give you information on the sympto-thermal method.



Yes, my parents used it.  It's more accurate than most of the other

timing-based methods, but it's certainly not something that I would

depend on without at least one other backup method.

--scott

-- 

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: ab401@freenet.carleton.ca (Paul Tomblin)

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 01:24:52 GMT

--------

kludge@grissom.larc.nasa.gov (Scott Dorsey) writes:



>In article <2aglkv$3h3@reeve.research.aa.wl.com> bevan@aa.wl.com (Beth Bevan) writes:

>>

>>The sympto-thermal method is totally organic and has been used

>>by various family members and acquaintances of mine for years with 



>Yes, my parents used it.  It's more accurate than most of the other

>timing-based methods, but it's certainly not something that I would

>depend on without at least one other backup method.



Ah yes.  The ultimate recommendation for a birth control method: "My parents 

used it".





Paul "Accident" Tomblin









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: jvarley@netcom.com (I go through life just for THIS?!)

Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 00:20:46 GMT

--------

In article <CFHD9G.8ru@freenet.carleton.ca> ab401@freenet.carleton.ca writes:

>kludge@grissom.larc.nasa.gov (Scott Dorsey) writes:

>

>>In article <2aglkv$3h3@reeve.research.aa.wl.com> bevan@aa.wl.com (Beth Bevan) writes:

>>>

>>>The sympto-thermal method is totally organic and has been used

>>>by various family members and acquaintances of mine for years with 

>

>>Yes, my parents used it.  It's more accurate than most of the other

>>timing-based methods, but it's certainly not something that I would

>>depend on without at least one other backup method.

>

>Ah yes.  The ultimate recommendation for a birth control method: "My parents 

>used it".



Ultimate method of non-toxic birth control:  When the couple is in 'the mood'

the man should undress and go take a cold shower.

-- 

jvarley@netcom.com            |   "...Soul of a woman was created below!"

Tomes on IRC                  |           -- Led Zeppelin









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: laughlan@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Greg Laughland)

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1993 19:17:52 GMT

--------

>Paul "Accident" Tomblin wrote:

>

>Ah yes.  The ultimate recommendation for a birth control method: "My parents 

>used it".





Paul,

Sheesh.... People who use birth control can have children intentionally. Some use it to decide "when" to have them - not "if".

 

Anyway, the symto-thermal method can also used to achieve pregnancy. It lets you know when the woman's body is at it's most fertile point, thus allowing the couple to optimizing their chances.

My wife (whose family has women with incredibly fertile bodies) and I have used the symto-thermal method for 10 years and have been successful in intentionally conceiving two children in two attempts, while avoiding pregnacy the other 8 years.  No "backup" methods were required. 





----------------------------------------------------------------------

Greg Laughland   laughlan@rchland.vnet.ibm.com









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: music@reg.triumf.ca (FRED W. BACH)

Date: 29 Oct 1993 13:22 PST

--------

In article <CFHD9G.8ru@freenet.carleton.ca>, ab401@freenet.carleton.ca writes...

#kludge@grissom.larc.nasa.gov (Scott Dorsey) writes:

# 

#>In article <2aglkv$3h3@reeve.research.aa.wl.com> bevan@aa.wl.com (Beth Bevan) writes:

#>>

#>>The sympto-thermal method is totally organic and has been used

#>>by various family members and acquaintances of mine for years with 

# 

#>Yes, my parents used it.  It's more accurate than most of the other

#>timing-based methods, but it's certainly not something that I would

#>depend on without at least one other backup method.

# 

#Ah yes.  The ultimate recommendation for a birth control method: "My parents 

#used it".

# 

# 

#Paul "Accident" Tomblin

       ^^^^^^^^

   <snort>!   :-)



   I tell my kids that over half of the babies born are "accidents" or else

 convenient "accidents" where the parents just let nature happen.  So kids

 like that should NOT feel any less loved.



   What do you thing the stats are on "accidents"? 





 Fred W.<I'm not sure> Bach, Operations Group | Internet: music@erich.triumf.ca

 TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility)    |  Voice:  604-222-1047 loc 327/278

 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS            |  FAX:    604-222-1074

 University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA   V6T 2A3



 These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question.

 They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers.









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: pgh@vaxi.bton.ac.uk

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 17:15:28 GMT

--------

In article <2aglkv$3h3@reeve.research.aa.wl.com>, bevan@aa.wl.com (Beth Bevan) writes:

>Lee Rudolph (lrudolph@black.clarku.edu) wrote:

>: In alt.consciousness, of all places, ralph@thecoast.gvg.tek.com 

>: (Ralph Williams) writes (with 100-column lines, follow-up set 

>: to alt.conspiracy, and distribution set to usa--all changed):

>

>: >I'm searching to see if there is such a thing as a 

>: >totally organic method of Birth

>: >Control. My suspicion is that there is, and the information 

>: >has been supressed by

>: >large drug and latex comanies. I was talking with a friend 

>: >who knows a couple that

>: >used something like the woman eathing Carrot Seeds before 

>: >and/or after making love and it worked for

>: >them. I'm going to try and contact them to see where 

>: >they got their information.

>: >Does anybody else have any suggestions or books they can recommend on this

>: >subject. Any information would be greatly appreciated. 

>

>: >Thanks,

>: >Ralph			

>

>The sympto-thermal method is totally organic and has been used

>by various family members and acquaintances of mine for years with 

>success, but it requires you to be committed to monitoring your

>body. There are of course many abortificants in the plant world,

>again these have been used by people I know with success, but its

>not something I would recommend. Any good book on birth control

>can give you information on the sympto-thermal method.

>

>Its interesting to me that most of the responses to this post which

>were of no value at all came from males. I wonder how big a joke it

>would be if they were faced with our choices for birth control.  

The chinese discovered that men who ate food fried in cotton oil were producing

less chilren.  It was discovered to be that there sperm counts were reduced by

a substance called GOSSYPOL(?).  As far as I know there is some kind of long

term research being done on this substance.  Can anyone out there HELP!

pete the pixilated pixie

























lo











==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: rrd@fc.hp.com (Ray Depew)

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 22:56:47 GMT

--------

pgh@vaxi.bton.ac.uk wrote:



: The chinese discovered that men who ate food fried in cotton oil were producing

: less chilren.  It was discovered to be that there sperm counts were reduced by

: a substance called GOSSYPOL(?).  As far as I know there is some kind of long

: term research being done on this substance.  Can anyone out there HELP!

: pete the pixilated pixie



Boy, if that's the case, then let's all start eating more Fritos!  The big

Frito factory in Lubbock, Texas, buys all the cottonseed oil for miles 

around (why do you think they built it there?), and the distinctive smell

of Fritos corn chips is not as much due to the toasted corn as it is due

to the "cooked" oil.



Regards

Ray











==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: j0m1742@venus.tamu.edu (MANHART, JAMES)

Date: 26 Oct 1993 18:27 CDT

--------

In article <CFJ12n.9tp@fc.hp.com>, rrd@fc.hp.com (Ray Depew) writes...

>pgh@vaxi.bton.ac.uk wrote:

> 

> 

>Boy, if that's the case, then let's all start eating more Fritos!  The big

>Frito factory in Lubbock, Texas, buys all the cottonseed oil for miles 

>around (why do you think they built it there?), and the distinctive smell

>of Fritos corn chips is not as much due to the toasted corn as it is due

>to the "cooked" oil.

> 

>Regards

>Ray

> 



Crisco is hydrogenated cotton oil so I doubt that cotton seed oil has the

indicated affect.  If gossypol is the active ingredient, Also, the amounts 

of it would probably be very small, at least in the highly refined oils 

sold commercially.  Is it possible the Chinese

used unrefined oils?  Also, I believe that gossypol is somewhat toxic.





*********************************************************************

Jim Manhart, Dept. of Biology, Texas A&M University, College Station, 

TX 77843-3258, (409) 845-3356, email:  J-Manhart@TAMU.EDU (Internet) 

*********************************************************************









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: knightb@abulafia.b21.ingr.com (William B. Knight)

Date: 28 Oct 1993 20:09:55 GMT

--------

In article <26OCT199318271480@venus.tamu.edu> j0m1742@venus.tamu.edu (MANHART, JAMES) writes:



>Crisco is hydrogenated cotton oil so I doubt that cotton seed oil has the

>indicated affect.  If gossypol is the active ingredient, Also, the amounts 

>of it would probably be very small, at least in the highly refined oils 

>sold commercially.  Is it possible the Chinese used unrefined oils?  



>Also, I believe that gossypol is somewhat toxic.



Perhaps, then, this is what makes it effective as a means of birth

control?  :->



-- 

Brad Knight 

knightb@abulafia.b21.ingr.com











==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: pyeatt@CS.ColoState.EDU (Larry Pyeatt)

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 23:40:11 GMT

--------



In article <CFJ12n.9tp@fc.hp.com>, rrd@fc.hp.com (Ray Depew) writes:

|> 

|> Boy, if that's the case, then let's all start eating more Fritos!  The big

|> Frito factory in Lubbock, Texas, buys all the cottonseed oil for miles 

|> around (why do you think they built it there?), and the distinctive smell

|> of Fritos corn chips is not as much due to the toasted corn as it is due

|> to the "cooked" oil.



That accounts for the "distinctive smell" of Lubbock, also, especially

when the wind is from the east.

-- 



Larry D. Pyeatt                   All standard disclaimers apply.

pyeatt@kottke.cs.colostate.edu    Void where prohibited.











==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: fearnley@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Fearnley Anne)

Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 14:37:20 GMT

--------

camilla@netcom.com (Camilla Cracchiolo) writes:



>Lee Rudolph (lrudolph@black.clarku.edu) wrote:

>: In alt.consciousness, of all places, ralph@thecoast.gvg.tek.com 

>: (Ralph Williams) writes (with 100-column lines, follow-up set 

>: to alt.conspiracy, and distribution set to usa--all changed):



>: >I'm searching to see if there is such a thing as a 

>: >totally organic method of Birth

>: >Control.  



>: Lee "I suspect he wants a method which is both totally organic

>: and *effective*, though he didn't say so" Rudolph



>The last 'organic' birth control method I heard of was rhythm.



>It is named 'Vatican roulette' for good reason....



A better 'organic method' of birth control is the Billings method, it is

also based on knowing when a woman is fertile, but it is much more accurate

than the rhythm method and easier than the thermometre method.  Many people

have been using it for years with success (including me and my husband).

It is even more accurate when used in conjuction with the thermometre method,

but I have not tried this.



If Ralph wants information on the subject, he should e-mail me.



--

Anne Fearnley                                     Dept de math. et de stat.

fearnley@ere.umontreal.ca                         Universite de Montreal

                                                  Montreal, QC, Canada









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: dstothar@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Diane Stothard)

Date: 26 Oct 1993 12:11:34 GMT

--------

Thank you, Ralph, for trying to do YOUR part in the query for BC.



>Its interesting to me that most of the responses to this post which

>were of no value at all came from males. I wonder how big a joke it

>would be if they were faced with our choices for birth control.



Amen to that, Beth!









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: cecilw@access.isc-br.com (Cecil Williams)

Date: 26 Oct 93 17:55:56 GMT

--------

(Diane Stothard) writes:

> Beth writes:

>Thank you, Ralph, for trying to do YOUR part in the query for BC.

>>Its interesting to me that most of the responses to this post which

>>were of no value at all came from males. I wonder how big a joke it

          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>would be if they were faced with our choices for birth control.

>

>Amen to that, Beth!



It's interesting to me that Beth and Dianne have no sense of humor at all.

There's always a need for humor. Humor is good for the soul. Apparently 

you two have none... I won't degrade myself to your level by casting 

aspersions on all female-dom, as I happen to know a few women who DO 

know when to laugh. I found value in chuckling at Ralph's post. 



Cecil

cecilw@access.isc-br.com











==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: cary@afone.as.arizona.edu (Cary Kittrell)

Date: 26 Oct 1993 19:37:07 GMT

--------

In article <4131@tau-ceti.isc-br.com> cecilw@access.isc-br.com (Cecil Williams) writes:

<(Diane Stothard) writes:

<> Beth writes:

<>Thank you, Ralph, for trying to do YOUR part in the query for BC.

<>>Its interesting to me that most of the responses to this post which

<>>were of no value at all came from males. I wonder how big a joke it

<          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

<>>would be if they were faced with our choices for birth control.

<>

<>Amen to that, Beth!

<

<It's interesting to me that Beth and Dianne have no sense of humor at all.

<There's always a need for humor. Humor is good for the soul. Apparently 

<you two have none... I won't degrade myself to your level by casting 

<aspersions on all female-dom, as I happen to know a few women who DO 

<know when to laugh. I found value in chuckling at Ralph's post. 

<

<Cecil

<cecilw@access.isc-br.com

<



And, laughing at a man at the appropriate time is a highly successful

means of contraception...





cary











==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: bevan@aa.wl.com (Beth Bevan)

Date: 27 Oct 1993 12:05:37 GMT

--------

Cecil Williams (cecilw@access.isc-br.com) wrote:

: > Beth writes:

: >>Its interesting to me that most of the responses to this post which

: >>were of no value at all came from males. I wonder how big a joke it

:           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

: >>would be if they were faced with our choices for birth control.

: >

: >Amen to that, Beth!



: It's interesting to me that Beth and Dianne have no sense of humor at all.

: There's always a need for humor. Humor is good for the soul. Apparently 

: you two have none... I won't degrade myself to your level by casting 

: aspersions on all female-dom, as I happen to know a few women who DO 

: know when to laugh. I found value in chuckling at Ralph's post. 



: Cecil

: cecilw@access.isc-br.com





Well thank you Cecil for not degrading yourself to my level! I 

hate it when people degrade themselves to my level, I like being

down here all by myself! 



I'm also totally impressed by your brilliant intuitive knowledge

of my lack of a sense of humour (it was surgically removed.)



Some subjects have a universal appeal to laughter, but certain

subjects that some groups find funny can be painful for others,

thats all. Birth control is a very touchy subject for some, and

its failure even more so.



But back to herbs, take some valerian!









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: camilla@netcom.com (Camilla Cracchiolo)

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1993 19:59:28 GMT

--------

Beth Bevan (bevan@aa.wl.com) wrote:



: Well thank you Cecil for not degrading yourself to my level! I 

: hate it when people degrade themselves to my level, I like being

: down here all by myself! 



: I'm also totally impressed by your brilliant intuitive knowledge

: of my lack of a sense of humour (it was surgically removed.)



: Some subjects have a universal appeal to laughter, but certain

: subjects that some groups find funny can be painful for others,

: thats all. Birth control is a very touchy subject for some, and

: its failure even more so.



Well, I personally find birth control a HILARIOUS subject, and 

I am 1) female and 2) have had one significant birth control failure

which resulted in an abortion.  



I worked in a family planning clinic for many years.



Look, some of the stuff we have to do is ridiculous!  I once

spoinnnngged  a diaphragm clear across the room while explaining

how to use.  (as in:  I squeezed it shut, and it slipped and went

SPROINNNNG).  Nothing like listening to women telling you 

about trying to put that damn thing in for the first time, drunk

at two in the morning in a bar bathroom!



Condoms?  I have heard more stories from guys about the first time

they went to buy one, horrific embarrassment, trying to get it on,

wondering "does one size REALLY fit all?"



Oh, not to mention women trying to feel their cervices for the first

time with cap or diaphragm and not being able to find it.  YOu have

to laugh at a certain point with this stuff.













==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: jwest@jwest.ecen.okstate.edu ()

Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1993 01:42:29 GMT

--------

In article <camillaCFMI75.FoC@netcom.com> camilla@netcom.com (Camilla Cracchiolo) writes:

>

>Well, I personally find birth control a HILARIOUS subject, and 



[several examples deleted]



> You have

>to laugh at a certain point with this stuff.

>

>



How about trying to explain to your three-year old daughter why daddy has

a sack of ice down his drawers a few hours after his vasectomy? Or even

trying to face your 7 month old twins when you are in that condition? That

really was a bit amusing. At least my wife thought so. :)



Jim



----------

Jim West

Associate Professor

Electrical and Computer Engineering

Oklahoma State University

jwest@master.ceat.okstate.edu











==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)

Date: 28 Oct 1993 23:02:47 GMT

--------

In article <4131@tau-ceti.isc-br.com>, cecilw@access.isc-br.com (Cecil Williams) writes:

=(Diane Stothard) writes:

=> Beth writes:

=>Thank you, Ralph, for trying to do YOUR part in the query for BC.

=>>Its interesting to me that most of the responses to this post which

=>>were of no value at all came from males. I wonder how big a joke it

=          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

=>>would be if they were faced with our choices for birth control.

=>

=>Amen to that, Beth!

=

=It's interesting to me that Beth and Dianne have no sense of humor at all.

=There's always a need for humor. Humor is good for the soul. Apparently 

=you two have none... I won't degrade myself to your level by casting 

=aspersions on all female-dom, as I happen to know a few women who DO 

=know when to laugh. I found value in chuckling at Ralph's post. 



It would be amusing that some people somehow think that "organic" means "safe,"

were that belief not so pathetic.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL



Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My

understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So

unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my

organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to

hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: rlbell@sunee.uwaterloo.ca (Richard Bell)

Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1993 13:14:39 GMT

--------

It is not exactly organic, but there is a group called SERENA that 

advocates the scientific rythm method.  It is a natural method that

charts when the woman is fertile based on body temperature, height

of the cervix, the openning of the cervix, and the mucous outside the

cervix.  When all of these signs correlate to infertility, enjoyable,

carefree sex is possible.  The problem is that it requires a couple

to limit themselves to only about ten days every twenty-eight, and it

does nothing to halt the spread of aids, so it is only really useful

for strictly monogamous couples, but it does have the added bonus of

being condoned by the catholic church.











==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: E.R.Heerdink@far.ruu.nl (Rob Heerdink)

Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1993 14:52:28 GMT

--------



In article <CFnu4G.7F2@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> rlbell@sunee.uwaterloo.ca (Richard Bell) writes:

>It is not exactly organic, but there is a group called SERENA that 

>advocates the scientific rythm method.  It is a natural method that

>charts when the woman is fertile based on body temperature, height

>of the cervix, the openning of the cervix, and the mucous outside the

>cervix.  

>When all of these signs correlate to infertility, enjoyable,

>carefree sex is possible.  

xcuse me?



>enjoyable, carefree sex is possible.  

you said:



>enjoyable sex is possible.  ???



Not after taking the measurings you just described, it's not! 

Try it, you'll find out..



 - Rob









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: clynne@cco.caltech.edu (Constance L. Villani)

Date: 29 Oct 1993 18:38:35 GMT

--------

Rob Heerdink <E.R.Heerdink@far.ruu.nl> wrote:

>>charts when the woman is fertile based on body temperature, height

>>of the cervix, the openning of the cervix, and the mucous outside the

>>cervix.  



>you said:

>>enjoyable sex is possible.  ???

>Not after taking the measurings you just described, it's not! 

>Try it, you'll find out..



Umm.. it is.  



Trust me - taking my temperature, going to the bathroom, and 

fingering myself once a day do not make enjoyable sex difficult.



With the Billings, sympto-thermal, and mucous methods, you 

check your mucous and temperature in the morning.  It takes

no longer than five minutes.  And you know more about your 

body. There's nothing about it that ruins sex - five minutes

every morning means unlimited sex all day long.  As long as

you're well out of your fertile phase, you can even have 

sex in the morning and skip the checking for that day, once

you've gotten comfortable with the system (say 3 months).



And the fertile phase only lasts for 8 days in most women,

so you can actually have sex for 20 days or so out of the

cycle, but many people are squeamish about sex during menst-

ruation, so this works out to about 10 days to 2 weeks worth

of sex per cycle.



During the first two months you're not supposed to have sex

during menstruation, because you need to verify that you aren't

ovulating and menstruating at the same time (yes, some women

actually do!).











==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: rlbell@sunee.uwaterloo.ca (Richard Bell)

Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 20:11:42 GMT

--------

In article <1993Oct29.145228.19702@cc.ruu.nl>,

Rob Heerdink <E.R.Heerdink@far.ruu.nl> wrote:

>

>In article <CFnu4G.7F2@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> rlbell@sunee.uwaterloo.ca (Richard Bell) writes:

>>It is not exactly organic, but there is a group called SERENA that 

>>advocates the scientific rythm method.  It is a natural method that

>>charts when the woman is fertile based on body temperature, height

>>of the cervix, the openning of the cervix, and the mucous outside the

>>cervix.  

>>When all of these signs correlate to infertility, enjoyable,

>>carefree sex is possible.  

>xcuse me?

>

>>enjoyable, carefree sex is possible.  

>you said:

>

>>enjoyable sex is possible.  ???

>

>Not after taking the measurings you just described, it's not! 

>Try it, you'll find out..



I should have ended this with "Your mileage may vary.".

The reason I used the wording "enjoyable, carefree" is that, once the window

opens, the testing can be discontinued until the cycle starts again.

Except for the temperature measurements, all of the tests are doable

without any instrumentation, and (according to my fiancee) are easily

incorporated into the woman's morning routine.  All I have to do is

not ask for intercourse when she is not infertile.



During the window of opportunity, there are no worries about condoms,

femdoms, foams, gels, creams, caps, diaphragms, or anything, if we both

want to, we just do it.  That is carefree sex.









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: grimya@venture.ksu.ksu.edu (Lyn/Grimya)

Date: 1 Nov 1993 18:21:01 -0600

--------





	There are two books that I've found that have information on plants

that have been used (not necessarily proven) for birth control.  They are



	_The Compleat Herbal_ 

	Harris, Ben Charles



	_Medical Botany: Plants Affecting Man's Health_ 

	Lewis, Walter H. and Elvin-Lewis, Memory P. F.



	I found both books at the University library.  They both have interesting

information, even if you aren't interested in birth control specifically.





Lyn









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)

Date: 30 Oct 1993 00:28:27 GMT

--------

In article <29OCT199315462083@erich.triumf.ca>, music@erich.triumf.ca (FRED W. BACH) writes:

=  Carl and I generally agree on most points, I find, and I respect his views

= on many things.  But on this point I would like to elaborate with my views:

= When it comes to "safe" drugs, we rely on all the testing done by the Western

= Medical Profession to protect us.  Even then there are bad reactions.  I know

= of several mild reactions, and a couple of fatal ones, to tested prescription

= drugs.  



True.



=  When it comes to herbs, I think it is unwise just to go out and pick some

= herb and ingest it in some way.  There are all sorts of toxic herbs.  First

= the herb must be properly identified.  Then its indications and counter-

= indications should be checked with the literature on the subject.  Perhaps

= an experienced herbalist should be consulted.



Are you claiming that herbs (which by their nature contain unknown

concentrations of assorted chemicals) have been tested under requirements as

rigorous as those demanded by the FDA for synthetic drugs?



= Only then should a person

= consider ingesting the herb, and he should have a good reason for doing so.

= Most companies in the herbal-preparation business are aware of this, as

= should be most of the stores where the herbs are sold.  The argument that

= there are some "hucksters" out there, while true, is not sufficient reason

= to close down all the herbal dealers.

=

=   However, once these proper steps are followed, I see no reason why a person 

= should not seek the healing benefit of natural herbs.  And, I especially

= resent the attempts of certain bodies to take away my right to do so.

= In doing so they take away my freedom of speech.  If I were to say that

= I believed in the Bible's Genesis account where "all vegetation was given

= to mankind as food", then it could be said that such interdicts against

= my use of herbs as medicinal agents would be violating my religious beliefs.



You could.  And I object to the FDA's attempt to ban certain substances.  Were

they to simply require that evidence be made in support of claims for the

therapeutic value of various compounds, and prosecute cases in which

unsubstantiated claims are made for efficacy, they'd be doing the job they're

supposed to.



=   Saying that "organic" equals "safe" is invalid, as Carl rightly points

= out.  But saying the opposite is also invalid, IMHO.



I never said it was.  However, "organic" DOES frequently mean "not tested under

conditions anywhere near as rigorous as those required for synthetic

medications."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL



Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My

understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So

unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my

organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to

hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: music@erich.triumf.ca (FRED W. BACH)

Date: 30 Oct 1993 11:03 PST

--------

In article <2ascfb$g93@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU writes...

#In article <29OCT199315462083@erich.triumf.ca>, music@erich.triumf.ca

# (FRED W. BACH) writes:



 [ stuff deleted ]



# 

#Are you claiming that herbs (which by their nature contain unknown

#concentrations of assorted chemicals) have been tested under requirements as

#rigorous as those demanded by the FDA for synthetic drugs?

# 



   Well, no and yes.  Certainly not in microdetail of the molecular content

 and exact concentrations and the millions of possible interactions.  But

 in the area that actually counts, in thousands of humans over thousands of

 years, well, yes.  And how many of the FDA-approved drugs have later shown

 to have unknown, perhaps dangerous, side effects?  The whole point is that

 people have lived for a very long time with these herbs, and there has been,

 as a result, considerable knowledge inserted into human culture (yes, it's

 not necessarily on some sacred scientific paper blessed by some FDA Gods).

 A piece of paper and a book are not necessary for life and death, but they

 can point in a certain direction, as can folklore.  Witness the search for

 drugs in the Amazon Jungle, guided by 100% folklore with science used to

 explain and document things AFTER the fact.  You see, Herbs contain drugs

 and *drug-combinations* that modern science does not yet have.  I suppose

 the vice-versa is true as well.  So a wise person would use wisdom to select

 the best medications (for whatever ailment) from EITHER source, herbal or

 synthetic.  Like I once said before:  it is knowledge that counts here.  

 The blanket rejection of herbals and herbalists would approach the height

 of ignorance, IMHO, as would the blanket rejection of synthetics.



  [ more stuff deleted ]



#--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

# 



 Fred W. Bach ,    Operations Group        |  Internet: music@erich.triumf.ca

 TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility)    |  Voice:  604-222-1047 loc 327/278

 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS            |  FAX:    604-222-1074

 University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA   V6T 2A3



 These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question.

 They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers.









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)

Date: 30 Oct 1993 19:09:02 GMT

--------

In article <30OCT199311031718@erich.triumf.ca>, music@erich.triumf.ca (FRED W. BACH) writes:

=#Are you claiming that herbs (which by their nature contain unknown

=#concentrations of assorted chemicals) have been tested under requirements as

=#rigorous as those demanded by the FDA for synthetic drugs?

=# 

=

=   Well, no and yes.  Certainly not in microdetail of the molecular content

= and exact concentrations and the millions of possible interactions.  But

= in the area that actually counts, in thousands of humans over thousands of

= years, well, yes.  And how many of the FDA-approved drugs have later shown

= to have unknown, perhaps dangerous, side effects?  The whole point is that

= people have lived for a very long time with these herbs, and there has been,

= as a result, considerable knowledge inserted into human culture (yes, it's

= not necessarily on some sacred scientific paper blessed by some FDA Gods).



Among the "knowledge" that's been inserted into human culture are such things

as "cures" for warts and the common cold, for which the "evidence" in favor of

them "if you use them the warts or common cold go away," without consideration

of the fact that if you DON'T use them, the warts or common cold go away

anyway.  Yes, it's true that SOME folk remedies are efficacious.  It's also

true that SOME folk remedies are not efficacious and can be harmful.  Without a

testing methodology that goes beyond "post hoc, ergo propter hoc," there's no

way of distinguishing between those remedies that are efficacious and those

that are not.



= A piece of paper and a book are not necessary for life and death, but they

= can point in a certain direction, as can folklore.  Witness the search for

= drugs in the Amazon Jungle, guided by 100% folklore with science used to

= explain and document things AFTER the fact.



Are you seriously claiming that every such remedy described in folklore is

efficacious?



= You see, Herbs contain drugs

= and *drug-combinations* that modern science does not yet have.  I suppose

= the vice-versa is true as well.  So a wise person would use wisdom to select

= the best medications (for whatever ailment) from EITHER source, herbal or

= synthetic.



One would also generally like to know whether the remedies are efficacious. 

The fact that folklore says they are is pretty weak evidence.



= Like I once said before:  it is knowledge that counts here.  

= The blanket rejection of herbals and herbalists would approach the height

= of ignorance, IMHO, as would the blanket rejection of synthetics.



I've not made any such blanket rejection.  I HAVE been arguing against a

blanket acceptance.  The two are NOT equivalent.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL



Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My

understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So

unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my

organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to

hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: music@erich.triumf.ca (FRED W. BACH)

Date: 30 Oct 1993 15:06 PST

--------

In article <2aue4e$es4@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU writes...



#Among the "knowledge" that's been inserted into human culture are such things

#as "cures" for warts and the common cold, for which the "evidence" in favor of

#them "if you use them the warts or common cold go away," without consideration

#of the fact that if you DON'T use them, the warts or common cold go away

#anyway.  Yes, it's true that SOME folk remedies are efficacious.  It's also

#true that SOME folk remedies are not efficacious and can be harmful.  Without a

#testing methodology that goes beyond "post hoc, ergo propter hoc," there's no

#way of distinguishing between those remedies that are efficacious and those

#that are not.



  Cripes, Carl, don't you think that I am qualified to set up a test and

 then judge the results myself??  When I had allergy problems the Doctors

 told me what to do and then they expected me to do the experiments and

 to take the data and to form my own conclusions.  They would review my

 data, if they wanted, and rubberstamp my conclusions.  Cheap lab work, eh?



  Incidentally, some warts go away and some don't.  If I had several warts

 which I wanted to get rid of, I would try the medication on SOME of them

 and hold the others back to see if there were any differences.  The results

 of my tests would guide further tests.  If the tests matched my hypotheses

 then I would have strong evidence pointing to the usefullness or uselessness

 of the medication.  Heck, I tune the cyclotron this way and I can find and

 identify and quantify and repeatedly demonstrate all sorts of little nuances

 this way.  It's what I do professionally.  You know, the cyclotron doctor.



# 

#= A piece of paper and a book are not necessary for life and death, but they

#= can point in a certain direction, as can folklore.  Witness the search for

#= drugs in the Amazon Jungle, guided by 100% folklore with science used to

#= explain and document things AFTER the fact.

# 

#Are you seriously claiming that every such remedy described in folklore is

#efficacious?

# 



   The ones described in the old and tried and tested books all have 

  some measure of stated efficacy. The indications vary.  Read the books.

  There may be some differences in the plants themselves in the past few

  hundred years, however.  This does pose a problem and would require

  re-evaluation by qualified herbalists every so often.  As well, folks

  who just go out and pick wild herbs may not be experts and may pick the

  wrong ones.  With mushrooms we know how deadly this can be.  So again,

  accurate knowledge is required, supplemented by periodic testing.  But

  I would like to say that **I** can do the testing.  I don't necessarily

  need the FDA.



#= You see, Herbs contain drugs

#= and *drug-combinations* that modern science does not yet have.  I suppose

#= the vice-versa is true as well.  So a wise person would use wisdom to select

#= the best medications (for whatever ailment) from EITHER source, herbal or

#= synthetic.

# 

#One would also generally like to know whether the remedies are efficacious. 

#The fact that folklore says they are is pretty weak evidence.

# 

   Well... maybe.  But it is suggestive, nevertheless.  It is only evidence

 that suggests careful personal experimentation.  Each of us must be his own

 judge.  We all have a right to accept or refuse any medical treatment based

 on informed consent.  Furthermore, religious freedom is a big issue here. 

 The medical priesthood sits up and takes notice when you demand alternative

 medical management, and they darned well know it and it makes them fear

 for their wallets.   Alternative Medical Management is within your legal

 rights as an adult.  Two other points that should be mentioned: never try a

 new prescription drug or herbal preparation completely on your own.  A person

 could easily have a bad reaction to either and need some kind of assistance.

 The other point to mention that, like in the Canadian Election recently, the

 showing in the poles does not reflect the popular vote (the Conservatives got

 almost wiped out in seats, to less than 1% from a previous majority in the

 house, whereas the popular vote reflected a significant percentage who still

 voted for the Conservatives).  The political wing of the Medical Profession

 holds some more-or-less official views and is supporting legislation, but

 many MD's personally favour natural (herbal) guided remedies since they often

 see the good results first hand (personal experience).



#= Like I once said before:  it is knowledge that counts here.  

#= The blanket rejection of herbals and herbalists would approach the height

#= of ignorance, IMHO, as would the blanket rejection of synthetics.

# 

#I've not made any such blanket rejection.  I HAVE been arguing against a

#blanket acceptance.  The two are NOT equivalent.



   Carl, I feel that you are playing the Devil's advocate here for the

 purposes of an intelligent discussion.  Very good.  Actually I made no

 accusation that *you* made the statement, but I made a general comment that

 the blanket rejection would be wrong since so many other folks read this.



   You know, I think we are coming closer and closer to an agreement. :-)



#--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

# 



  Best Regards,



 Fred W. Bach ,    Operations Group        |  Internet: music@erich.triumf.ca

 TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility)    |  Voice:  604-222-1047 loc 327/278

 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS            |  FAX:    604-222-1074

 University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA   V6T 2A3



 These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question.

 They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers.









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: camilla@netcom.com (Camilla Cracchiolo)

Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1993 23:06:50 GMT

--------

I actually have spent a significant amount of time looking into birth

control methods used by various cultures.  There's a myth out there that

all these hunter/gatherer societies had these effective herbal methods

of birth control.



As far as I can tell, some means of controlling population growth  has

been practiced by virtually every society in human history.  But herbs

haven't been a big part of it, although there are a few herbal abortifacients

out there that could probably stand further looking into.



Fertility control in a lot of societies has involved:



1.  Awareness of fertile times on the part of women.  While the

exact details of ovulation weren't known until modern times, 

some women did have the picture that some times seemed to result

in pregnancy more than others, and that changes in vaginal

secretion might be important.  



2.  Placing objects directly over the cervix.  Some of these substances

were fairly unpalatable, like crocodile dung, but a barrier is a barrier.



3.  Abstaining from sex or from vaginal sex at any rate for very long

periods of time.



4.  Infantacide when all else failed.



In fact, infanticide is probably the leading population control measure

of all of the above.













==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)

Date: 31 Oct 1993 10:06:45 GMT

--------

In article <30OCT199315062518@erich.triumf.ca>, music@erich.triumf.ca (FRED W. BACH) writes:

=In article <2aue4e$es4@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU writes...

=

=#Among the "knowledge" that's been inserted into human culture are such things

=#as "cures" for warts and the common cold, for which the "evidence" in favor of

=#them "if you use them the warts or common cold go away," without consideration

=#of the fact that if you DON'T use them, the warts or common cold go away

=#anyway.  Yes, it's true that SOME folk remedies are efficacious.  It's also

=#true that SOME folk remedies are not efficacious and can be harmful.  Without a

=#testing methodology that goes beyond "post hoc, ergo propter hoc," there's no

=#way of distinguishing between those remedies that are efficacious and those

=#that are not.

=

=  Cripes, Carl, don't you think that I am qualified to set up a test and

= then judge the results myself??



Depends on the size of the effect, now doesn't it?  Surely you understand that

for a remedy with a small effect, you've got to run quite a few trials before

you can conclude anything?  Just how many friends do you have who are willing

to forego treatment that's been demonstrated to be effective in order to see

whether a folk remedy has SOME effect?



= When I had allergy problems the Doctors

= told me what to do and then they expected me to do the experiments and

= to take the data and to form my own conclusions.  They would review my

= data, if they wanted, and rubberstamp my conclusions.  Cheap lab work, eh?



That's one way of looking at it.  Of course, if that's how you want to view it,

I sincerely hope that you're also looking for a treatment for your blindness. 

You see, the tests that they want you to do have been calibrated against rather

sizeable populations.  The medical community's actually invested quite a bit of

effort in, e.g., determining just what level of dosage one needs to administer

in the skin tests in order to diagnose a clinically significant response to the

putative allergen.



=  Incidentally, some warts go away and some don't.  If I had several warts

= which I wanted to get rid of, I would try the medication on SOME of them

= and hold the others back to see if there were any differences.



Sorry, but you're overlooking a minor detail.  You see, hypnosis appears to

have an effect on warts.  Yup.  Hypnotize someone, convince him under hypnosis

that the warts are going to go away, and they go away.  Yeah, the effect size

is small, and no, this particular treatment hasn't been rigorously tested (but,

hey!  it's got as much support for it as do many folk remedies!  If you're

gonna accept the folk remedies without question, then you've got to accept the

hypnotic cure for warts!).  Now, given that (admittedly flimsy) evidence in

support of one's attitude toward one's warts being able to cure them, the

experiment you propose is flawed:  You know which warts you think should go

away soonest.  Is it the remedy you're using or you expectation of the

disappearance of warts that cures them?  Difficult question, eh?  Well, it

turns out the scientific community addressed this issue quite some time ago. 

They even invented a technique to deal with it.  It's called the "double blind

study."  Here's how it works:  Randomly divide the patients into two groups. 

One group gets a placebo treatment, which is made to look as much as possible

like the treatment under study.  The other group gets the real treatment.  Now,

here's the important part:  Neither the doctor nor the patient knows whether

the patient's getting the placebo or the real treatment!  The patient getting

the real treatment has no better reason to believe that his warts will be cured

than does the patient getting the placebo!  And (and this is important, and is

the reason such studies are called "double-blind") the doctor doesn't have any

reason to expect more cures in one group than in another (since he doesn't know

who's in which group). so he can't give any patients clues as to whether

they're "supposed" to get well or not!  Nifty, eh?  Rules out virtually all

common biases.  But don't take my word for it.  If you think you've discovered

some hidden way that such an experiment can be biased, publish it!  You could

end up receiving the Nobel Prize in Medicine! (but don't forget to mention the

fact that I suggested it to you;  I'd kind of like to meet the monarch of

Sweden, myself).

= The results

= of my tests would guide further tests.  If the tests matched my hypotheses

= then I would have strong evidence pointing to the usefullness or uselessness

= of the medication.  Heck, I tune the cyclotron this way and I can find and

= identify and quantify and repeatedly demonstrate all sorts of little nuances

= this way.  It's what I do professionally.  You know, the cyclotron doctor.



Hmmm.  Does your cyclotron have a brain?  But let's try to avoid the fuzziness

so beloved of philosophers here, and make the question more specific:  How many

degrees of freedom does your cyclotron posess?



=#Are you seriously claiming that every such remedy described in folklore is

=#efficacious?

=# 

=

=   The ones described in the old and tried and tested books all have 

=  some measure of stated efficacy.



Gee.  The Bible says the Earth was created about 6000 years ago.  Just because

someone wrote something down, does that mean it's true?  Hmmm.  I seem to

recall someone asking me a very similar question just a day or so ago.  Could

it have been you, perhaps?



=  The indications vary.  Read the books.



And meanwhile, why don't you read the sacred literature of various religions. 

Let me know when you've found a way of reconciling all the traditions.



=  There may be some differences in the plants themselves in the past few

=  hundred years, however.



Hmmm.  Got any evidence (or even a plausible argument) to support this?  Last

person I heard who claimed that things EVER changed that fast told me I was

going to go to hell if I didn't renounce my belief in evolution.



=  This does pose a problem and would require

=  re-evaluation by qualified herbalists every so often.



For cultivated crops, you've probably got a point.  For herbs that are

harvested from cultivated areas, you've still probably got a point.  For herbs

harvested from uncultivated areas, you might, just possibly, have a point, but

if you wear a hat, it won't be so noticeable.



=  As well, folks

=  who just go out and pick wild herbs may not be experts and may pick the

=  wrong ones.  With mushrooms we know how deadly this can be.  So again,

=  accurate knowledge is required, supplemented by periodic testing.  But

=  I would like to say that **I** can do the testing.  I don't necessarily

=  need the FDA.



Y'know, that's exactly what every snake-oil salesman in history has claimed. 

Hey, if you want to play Russion roulette, I'm not going to stop you.  If you

want to foist your superstitions off one unsuspecting folks as time-tested

remedies, then I'm a bit more ambivalent.  After thinking about it a bit, go

ahead!  Do it!  Think of it as evolution in action!



=   Well... maybe.  But it is suggestive, nevertheless.  It is only evidence

= that suggests careful personal experimentation.  Each of us must be his own

= judge.  We all have a right to accept or refuse any medical treatment based

= on informed consent.



Ever checked what the term "informed consent" means, legally?  If curanderos

were subject to informed consent, they'd all be out of business.



= Furthermore, religious freedom is a big issue here. 

= The medical priesthood sits up and takes notice when you demand alternative

= medical management,



They sure do.  They're not at all happy to find themselves in a situation where

they've got to treat a patient who's in critical condition because he opted for

"alternative medical management" rather than undergoing an efficacious

treatment that didn't promise him miracles.  It's a hell of a lot tougher to

treat someone who's almost dead of a disease than it is to treat him if you

catch the disease early.



= and they darned well know it and it makes them fear

= for their wallets.



Yup.  It's more expensive to treat a patient who's damned near been killed by

quacks, too.



=#I've not made any such blanket rejection.  I HAVE been arguing against a

=#blanket acceptance.  The two are NOT equivalent.

=

=   Carl, I feel that you are playing the Devil's advocate here for the

= purposes of an intelligent discussion.



To the extent that I haven't accused you of copracephaly, you're right.  I

figure you know better than to believe the bullshit you've been spouting, and

have been willing to play second banana in your excellent satire on the topic

of "alternative medicine."



= Very good.  Actually I made no

= accusation that *you* made the statement, but I made a general comment that

= the blanket rejection would be wrong since so many other folks read this.

=

=   You know, I think we are coming closer and closer to an agreement. :-)



Perhaps.  Near as I can tell, you've been grossly exaggerating the position of

informed people who advocate "alternative medicine."  I've been reacting by

pointing out the flaws in those arguments, and have, as a result, found myself

exaggerating the position of the skeptics (yeah, I could've tried to address

the various ludicrous claims you've put forth in a somewhat moderate manner. 

To do so, however, would've required considerably lengthier responses, and

though I'm a pretty good typist, I've only got a 19200-baud terminal.  If

nothing else, I suspect we've given anybody who's patient [not to mention

masochistic] enough to have followed this thread a look at the two extreme

positions, subject to the requirement that they be at least somewhat

well-reasoned.



Now, shall we move on to the question of whether the mouse is the greatest

thing since sliced bread?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL



Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My

understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So

unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my

organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to

hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: rdnelson@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger D. Nelson)

Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 21:46:18 GMT

--------

In article <30OCT199315062518@erich.triumf.ca> music@erich.triumf.ca (FRED W. BACH) writes:

>In article <2aue4e$es4@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU writes...

>   Carl, I feel that you are playing the Devil's advocate here for the

> purposes of an intelligent discussion.  Very good.  Actually I made no

> accusation that *you* made the statement, but I made a general comment that

> the blanket rejection would be wrong since so many other folks read this.



Already after the last exchange I felt like saying what a pleasure it is

to read something intelligent, and basically respectful, in this

newsgroup, reflecting an interest in using the medium for communication

and maybe even for an increase in information.  The contrast with the

all-too-prevalent dull verbiage is delightful.  Thank you gentlemen!



Roger











==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk (Leonard Newnham)

Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 11:55:11 GMT

--------

FRED W. BACH (music@erich.triumf.ca) wrote:

>In article <2ascfb$g93@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU writes...

>#Are you claiming that herbs (which by their nature contain unknown

>#concentrations of assorted chemicals) have been tested under requirements as

>#rigorous as those demanded by the FDA for synthetic drugs?



> Well, no and yes.  Certainly not in microdetail of the molecular content

> and exact concentrations and the millions of possible interactions.  But

> in the area that actually counts, in thousands of humans over thousands of

> years, well, yes. 



If this is so then let's see the stats that show how effective the method is.

There has been a lot of anecdotal nonsense on this thread ("my family used this

method for years", etc, etc,) but no facts.  If I were to consider alternative

methods of birth control I first need reliable information on whether they

actually work or not.  Anyone got any?





> The whole point is that

> people have lived for a very long time with these herbs, and there has been,

> as a result, considerable knowledge inserted into human culture (yes, it's

> not necessarily on some sacred scientific paper blessed by some FDA Gods).

> A piece of paper and a book are not necessary for life and death, but they

> can point in a certain direction, as can folklore.  



Folklore may point to possible methods of contraception, but unless you

don't really mind becoming pregnant, it would be stupid to rely on it

without independent evidence of its effectiveness.

-- 



Leonard               e-mail:  L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: clynne@cco.caltech.edu (Constance L. Villani)

Date: 1 Nov 1993 18:48:38 GMT

--------

Leonard Newnham <L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk> wrote:

>If this is so then let's see the stats that show how effective the method is.

>There has been a lot of anecdotal nonsense on this thread ("my family used this

>method for years", etc, etc,) but no facts.  If I were to consider alternative

>methods of birth control I first need reliable information on whether they

>actually work or not.  Anyone got any?



Yes.  Try the World Health Organization (WHO) report referenced in

the bibliographies of "The Billings Method" by Dr. Evelyn Billings and

her husband, also a doctor, and "Your Fertility Cycles" by M. Winstein.



I will admit that I haven't bothered to check the WHO report by

myself, but the results listed are the same in both books, and 

I also use the anecdotal evidence of my mother (who started using

the method AFTER my baby brother's birth).



:) Constance













==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk (Leonard Newnham)

Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 13:57:43 GMT

--------

Constance L. Villani (clynne@cco.caltech.edu) wrote:

>Leonard Newnham <L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk> wrote:

>>If this is so then let's see the stats that show how effective the method is.

>>There has been a lot of anecdotal nonsense on this thread ("my family used this

>>method for years", etc, etc,) but no facts.  If I were to consider alternative

>>methods of birth control I first need reliable information on whether they

>>actually work or not.  Anyone got any?



>Yes.  Try the World Health Organization (WHO) report referenced in

>the bibliographies of "The Billings Method" by Dr. Evelyn Billings and

>her husband, also a doctor, and "Your Fertility Cycles" by M. Winstein.



>I will admit that I haven't bothered to check the WHO report by

>myself, but the results listed are the same in both books, and 

>I also use the anecdotal evidence of my mother (who started using

>the method AFTER my baby brother's birth).



Could you summarise the results claimed in either of these books?

And specifically for the Billing's method:



a) How actually does one determine fertility?

b) How many days abstinance does it require?

c) What are the failure rates when compared with other methods?











==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk (Leonard Newnham)

Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 08:42:47 GMT

--------

>From clynne@edu.caltech.cco Tue Nov  2 18:13:44 1993

From: clynne@cco.caltech.edu (Constance L. Villani)

Date: Tue, 2 Nov 93 10:13:11 PST

To: L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

Newsgroups: alt.consciousness,alt.folklore.urban,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.herbs

Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena

Cc: 

Content-Length: 1249



I wrote:

>>Could you summarise the results claimed in either of these books?

>>And specifically for the Billing's method:

>>

>>a) How actually does one determine fertility?

>>b) How many days abstinance does it require?

>>c) What are the failure rates when compared with other methods?



And Constance replied:

>I can give you details, but only if you're willing to wait about 

>two weeks for me to pick the books up from my mom, who I don't

>live with anymore.  Here is the off-the-top-of-my-head-as-much-as-

>I-can-remember answer.

>

>a) Rise in temperature, change in observed mucous, and feeling the cervix

>b) approx 7-10

>c) success rate is claimed at 99%, when used correctly.  (just like the pill)

>   of course, the number of people who hope they can cheat on their birth

>   control method and still not worry about things is high, so again the actual

>   rate is more like 92% (again just like the pill).  The difference between

>   the rate reported here and the rate reported in most literature put out

>   by birth-control companies (62%) is that the b-c comps. include all the

>   deliberate babies as failures.

>

>Oh, heck, I just realised that I emailed instead of posting.  Feel free to 

>forward this to the net.

>

>More info in two weeks or whenever I see my mom next...

>

>:) Constance



-- 



Leonard               e-mail:  L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: music@erich.triumf.ca (FRED W. BACH)

Date: 1 Nov 1993 16:15 PST

--------

In article <1993Nov1.115511.9098@bradford.ac.uk>, L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk

 (Leonard Newnham) writes...

#FRED W. BACH (music@erich.triumf.ca) wrote:



  [ Some of Carl's and my stuff deleted ]



#> The whole point is that

#> people have lived for a very long time with these herbs, and there has been,

#> as a result, considerable knowledge inserted into human culture (yes, it's

#> not necessarily on some sacred scientific paper blessed by some FDA Gods).

#> A piece of paper and a book are not necessary for life and death, but they

#> can point in a certain direction, as can folklore.  

# 

#Folklore may point to possible methods of contraception, but unless you

#don't really mind becoming pregnant, it would be stupid to rely on it

#without independent evidence of its effectiveness.

#-- 

# 

#Leonard               e-mail:  L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk



  You are of course absolutely correct when it comes do an area such

 as birth control where one cannot afford to experiemnt.  Carl and I

 had gotten off onto an enjoyable tangent thread about the efficacy and

 morality of herbalism in general and **not** specifically on the subject

 of Birth Control.  You see, Carl and I are the types that just love to

 get into a heated discussion about something like this, and Carl knows

 how to play any part with skill.  You will notice that we took care to

 address the issues themselves and not resort to low tactics like insulting

 each other.  Rather, we endeavoured to say nice things to each other when

 we could.



    My apologies for not changing the subject title earlier.  Thanks

 for pointing this important fact out.  I wouldn't want anybody just

 "experimenting" in this area.



    So OK, you readers,  No Experimenting Now !  ;-)



 Fred W. Bach ,    Operations Group        |  Internet: music@erich.triumf.ca

 TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility)    |  Voice:  604-222-1047 loc 327/278

 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS            |  FAX:    604-222-1074

 University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA   V6T 2A3



 These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question.

 They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers.









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: dstothar@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Diane Stothard)

Date: 27 Oct 1993 14:35:02 GMT

--------

Excuse me, Cecil, if I found no humor in the post. I thought it was an honest 

quest for alternative BC. I do not appreciate, nor do I think I deserve, to be 

flamed by you for my reply.



Diane









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

From: stro0091@gold.tc.umn.edu ()

Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 20:35:17 GMT

--------

>|> Folklore may point to possible methods of contraception, but unless you

>|> don't really mind becoming pregnant, it would be stupid to rely on it

>|> without independent evidence of its effectiveness.

>

>I believe that there are a few herbal contraceptives that have been

>shown to be effective by adequate testing.  As far as I can remember,

>most of them are abortificents, that is 'morning-after' pills.

>Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com

>

>From 'The Herb Book--the most complete catalog of nature's "miracle Plants"

ever published' by John Lust



these are abortifacents...

as you can see, these are all potentially dangerous, and i would seek

expert help before trying to use any of them.



DO NOT USE THEM SOLELY ON THE BASIS OF THIS POST!!!!!!!!



Peruvian bark looks like a better bet...decide for yourselves...





p. 304  Pennyrotayl was...taken also with brewers yeast to induce 

abortion.  It is helpful against nausea and nervous conditions but

should not be used during pregnancy.  Anerican Indians used Pennyroyal

tea for headache and for menstrual pcramps and pain.



infusion:  use 1 tsp. herb with 1 cup water.  Take 1-2 cups a day.



Tincture:  take 20-60 drops at a time, as needed.  for children, give small 

frequent doses.

-----------------------------

p. 154  Celery promotes onset of menstruation;  take it in only moderate

amounts during pregnancy



juice:  take 1 tbsp 2 or 3 times daily, an hour before meals.

----------------------------

p.166  cotton (gossypium spp.) root:  abortifacient.  A fluid extract

or a decoction made from the bark of the root was once used as a 

substitute for ergot to promote menstruation, to induce uterine contractions

during childbirth, and to effect abortion.  DO NOT USE WITHOUT MEDICAL

SUPERVISION

----------------------------------

p. 184  Ergot:  Abortifacient.  Medicinal preparations made from ergot

are useful in contracting the uterine muscles, particularly after delivery

to prevent hemorrhage, and have also been used for menstrual difficulties.

DO NOT USE WITHOUT MEDICAL SUPERVISION

------------------------------------

p. 217:  Hedge Hyssop:  USE ONLY UNDER MEDICAL SUPERVISION

---------------------------------------

P. 220  Hemlock Spruce:  steep 1 tsp inner bark or twigs in 1 cup boiling

hot water

-----------------------------------------------

p. 233:  Horseradish:  CAUTION:  DO NOT TAKE LARGE QUANTITIES OF

HORSERADISH AT ONE TIME.  STOP TAKING IT IF DIARRHEA OR NIGHT

SWEATING OCCURS.  



Only undried horesradish is effective. 



vinegar:  cover finely grated horseradish with vinegar

and let stand for 10 days.  take 1 tsp 2-3 times daily, well diluted

with water.



syrup:  steep 1 tsp root in 1/2 cup boiling hot water in covered pot

for 2 hours.  strain and add sugar until a syrupy connsistency is 

reached.



Horseradish taken in any form can be made more palatable with sugar

or honey.

-------------------------------------------------------------

p. 178:  Mistletoe:  American indians used it to cause abortion.  An

extract of the plant is knnown to increase uterine contractions and raise

blood pressure when injected into the blood



medicinal part are the leaves.

Large doses have a detrimental effect on heart action!!



juice:  wet the leaves and young twigs.  when the water has been

absorbed, press to extract te juice.  take 2-4 tsp. a day.



DO NOT USE WITHOUT MEDICAL SUPERVISION

BERRIES ARE POISONOUS. 



----------------------------------------------------------

p. 305 Peony:  A dedoction of the root has been used for...(in very

small doses) eclampsia.



THE ENTIRE PLANT IS POISONOUS, THE FLOWERS ESPECIALLY SO.  TEA MADE

FROM FLOWERS CAN BE FATAL



DO NOT USE WITHOUT MEDICAL SUPERVISION

------------------------------------------------

p. 306  Peruvian Bark:  Because of its effect of stimulating uterine

contractions, peruvian bark should not be used during pregnancy (unless

of course uterine contactions are desired to aid in a tardy delivery).



USe in small doses only, preferably with medical direction



infusion:  steep 1 tsp bark in 1 cup water.  take 1/2 cup day, no more

than 1-2 cups total.



tincture:  take 5-30 drops at a time.

----------------------------------------------------

p. 327 Ragwort:  has been used primarily in connection with female

complaints, such as leucorrhea or suppressed menstruation.  American

indians used it to speed childbirth and also to induce abortion.



CONTAINS TOXIC ALKALOIDS WHICH ARE KNOWN TO BE POISIONOUS TO LIVESTOCK

----------------------------------------------------------

p. 354 shepherds purse:  sometimes used to promote uterine contractins

during childbirth.



infusion:  steep 1 tsp fresh or 2  tsp dried herb in 1/2 cup water.

take 1 cup a day unsweetened a mouthful at a time.



juice:  take 1 teaspoon of juice several times a day.



tincture:  20-40 drops, 2-3 times daily



medicinal part is the herb, do not store herb longer than 1 year

------------------------------------------------------------

p. 376  tansy:  american indians made tea from the entire plant for

the purpose...to induce abortion.



AN OVERDOSE OF TANSY OIL OR TEA CAN BE FATAL



EXCEPT IN EMERGENCIES, USE TANSY ONLY UNDER MEDICAL SUPERVISION

---------------------------------



as you can see, these are all potentially dangerous, and i would seek

expert help before trying to use any of them.



DO NOT USE THEM SOLELY ON THE BASIS OF THIS POST!!!!!!!!

















==========

Subject: Re: MAKE.MONEY.FAST (David Rhodes letter)

From: abulloch@garnet.berkeley.edu (Anthony Bulloch)

Date: 24 Oct 1993 07:37:53 GMT

--------

Ah - as Halloween approaches some familiar ghosts

rush eagerly forward.....



Actually this electronic allomorph is rather interesting to the

social historians.  Nobody is going to make any money off this,

of course: I take it everyone is aware of that.  Whether you

post to bulletin boards or mail through the US mail, these

$1/$5 chain letters never produce any income: partly the return on

this kind of blind mailing is abysmally low anyway, no matter

what you are peddling - if you do an indiscriminate (non-specialised)

mailing you can expect between 0.05% and 1% return, and that's

if you are offering information only, not asking for money -

partly, of the people who do add their name to this list and

mail out copies, no-one ever sends off those $1s to others on

the list (why should they?).



So where does the David Rhodes letter come from? It's been around for

quite a while, and the date when his car was 'repossessed' varies

(usually set to be about 3 years previous to the present date); there

is also a variant with a letter of recommendation from 'a lawyer'

(called Philip something, I recall). Of course neither the ghostly

Rhodes nor the lawyer ever have any address or phone number...

The variations arise partly in the course of 'oral' transmission,

of course, and this is a well-attested feature of oral tradition.

The tenacity, though, is mostly due to the fact that in its

non-electronic form there is a paragraph recommending a particular

mailing-list company as a source of names (they'll sell you

1,000 names for $50, or whatever): some of the unscrupulous

name-list companies put this letter out every now and then to

drum up business, it's as simple as that.



Of course, the electronic form (with the mailing-list company

para removed) is like the tail without the body: a lot of

wagging going on and nowhere to go - a *real* nuisance to

everyone because of the clutter, and a definite health hazard

to the few that are irrascible (who then create more clutter

for us all posting rude notes, which have no utility anyway).



And if you're tempted to try the mailed version of the Rhodes

letter don't: it _is_ illegal, and the postal authorities

sometimes come down hard on people who send it round.



The mainspring, though, is vain hope: wouldn't it be nice if,

just once, there could be a simple, effortless way of getting

mildly wealthy? Perhaps, just perhaps, this is IT! Perhaps,

just perhaps, the laws of the universe will hang for a

moment, and in _my_ favor....



Well, if you feel like having a throw at the table of Outrageous

Fortune don't pitch it at this will-o-the-wisp: make your

offerings to a ghost with better credentials than this.  You'd

even do better taking your $50 to the race-course and putting

it all on the rankest outsider.



And if you can rein in your vain hopes just a bit, and temper

them with a dash of realism, put your $50 into starting up

a small business of your own - a small beginning, but with

some help it could grow. (And if you need suggestions there

are several of us who have done quite a lot of research into

'business opportunities' and know of some good ventures 

that are worth considering.)



Anthony Bulloch

abulloch@garnet.berkeley











==========

Subject: Help needed

From: louiz@tlspu.demon.co.uk (Louiz J. Hungate)

Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1993 16:17:44 GMT

--------



Hi.

I am attempting to write a short story about varios things, including

getting rid of a nasty ghostie, who sucks up life essences.  Is there

any herbs that are traditionally used for fending off evil spirits and

such?  I am a rank outsider in things of this sort, but I would like to 

have the correct info.

Thanks in advance, 

Louiz.

-- 

Louiz Hungate. (Those who the Gods destroy, they first make MAD!!)

(email: louiz@tlspu.demon.co.uk)









==========

Subject: Re: Help needed

From: as974x@unix1.circ.gwu.edu (Racheline Maltese)

Date: 24 Oct 1993 23:28:14 -0400

--------



Anything from a rowan tree is generally considered to work.  Additionally

garnets are considered a protection against these things.  Purification

incenses such as myhrr and frankincense could also be helpful.  Buring

white candles, and placing some salt at the entrances to your home is also

said to work.



-Racheline









==========

Subject: Re: Help needed

From: vankemp@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu (AndreaMrow)

Date: 25 Oct 93 19:33:29 -0600

--------

i've found that garlic often works quite well to fend off those nastey

little ghouls, not to mention burning a bit of sage.



-Andrea











==========

Subject: herbs for serious headaches??

From: cbaljs@med.unc.edu (Linda Stevenson)

Date: 25 Oct 1993 00:15:23 GMT

--------

Are there any herbs that help migrainal type headaches???



also is there an herb or herbs that induces sleep?



Thanks for any info













==========

Subject: Re: herbs for serious headaches??

From: Dan_Andrews@mindlink.bc.ca (Dan Andrews)

Date: 25 Oct 93 08:30:05 GMT

--------

> Linda Stevenson writes:

>

> Are there any herbs that help migrainal type headaches???

>

> also is there an herb or herbs that induces sleep?

>



The Onondagas used Pennyroyal leaves in a tea for headaches.



d









==========

Subject: Re: herbs for serious headaches??

From: nightowl@athena.mit.edu (Heather Grove)

Date: 26 Oct 1993 13:13:56 GMT

--------

:> Linda Stevenson writes

:>

:> Are there any herbs that help migrainal type headaches???

:>

:> also is there an herb or herbs that induces sleep?

:>



:The Onondagas used Pennyroyal leaves in a tea for headaches.

:From: Dan_Andrews@mindlink.bc.ca (Dan Andrews)



be careful about pennyroyal.  in large doses it can be toxic.  and it 

can cause pregnant women to miscarry.









==========

Subject: Re: herbs for serious headaches??

From: nightowl@athena.mit.edu (Lucif)

Date: 30 Oct 1993 20:28:39 GMT

--------

valerian; urg.  i don't think it can be stressed too much that you have to be careful with this.

my housemate makes valerian tincture, and puts a nice warning sign on it not to use more 

than 3 drops at a time.  i find 2 drops is more than enough to make me relaxed, sleepy,

and slightly off-center.  needless to say i only take it about three times a year, when i'm

*really* in need of relaxing.  don't play with this too eagerly.









==========

Subject: Re: herbs for serious headaches??

From: kmc@world.std.com (keith m corbett)

Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1993 05:04:21 GMT

--------

 

> In article <2auipn$92h@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> nightowl@athena.mit.edu (Lucif) writes:

> 

>    valerian; urg.  i don't think it can be stressed too much that you have to be careful with this.



Yes!  I've learned that valerian is quite potent, and effective if

used properly.  It can aid in relaxation and seems to work great for

that anxious, wound-up feeling some get at the end of the day.  BUT!

(local experts advise me) it is a powerful sedative and is

habit-forming.



Also it suppresses dream sleep, which can be dangerous, not to mention

counter-productive if what you need is more rest.



>    my housemate makes valerian tincture, and puts a nice warning sign on it not to use more 

>    than 3 drops at a time.  i find 2 drops is more than enough to make me relaxed, sleepy,

>    and slightly off-center.  



Here's my bedtime recipe for a pot of tea: 2 tea bags chamomile (I use

the commercial "SleepyTime", which also includes peppermint); 1 tbsp

lavender; 1 tbsp lavender, and 1 tbsp skullcap.  OCCASIONALLY I cut

back on the skullcap, and add 1 tsp of valerian.





-- 

. Keith Corbett       . Software consultant   . Special Form Software .

.. kmc@world.std.com   . Interleaf Lisp        . 53 Farragut Road      .

... 617.596.7021        . Document systems      . Swampscott MA 01907   .











==========

Subject: Re: herbs for serious headaches??

From: king@dciem.dnd.ca (Stephen King)

Date: 2 Nov 93 20:30:15 GMT

--------

In article <1993Oct29.153022.19821@nmt.edu>,

Tom Sheppler <shep@prism.nmt.edu> wrote:

>In article <2aj7qk$bbi@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, nightowl@athena.mit.edu (Heather Grove) writes:

>|> :>

>|> :> Are there any herbs that help migrainal type headaches???

>|> :>

>You can also try valerian.  



I have heard that feverfew is useful for combatting migraine headaches.

Presumably, one would ingest a tisane made from the leaves. It has also

been suggested that evening primrose oil may help.





-- 

                       Se non e` vero, e` ben trovato 

     ...{utzoo|mnetor}!dciem!dretor!king        king@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca









==========

Subject: Re:herbs for serious headaches??

From: jb6778@u.cc.utah.edu (Jay Brummett/Computer Services SLC Public)

Date: 25 Oct 1993 07:33:34 -0600

--------

Linda Stevenson wrote:

> Are there any herbs that help migrainal type headaches



: Dan Andrews suggested Pennyroyal



	Pennyroyal can be quite dangerous, it MUST NEVER be taken

by a woman who might be preg.  No matter how unlikely it is that she

could be pg.  Pennyroyal can and does cause miscarrage, and other adverse

side affects.



	IMHO a better solution would be clematis vine.  A strong tea made

from the leaves and stems of this vine is highly sucessful an many cases.

I am currently treating 3 cases of classic migrain headaches with a tea

where clematis is the active.  In all three cases, the subject did not

respond to western-medicine's normal treatments for migrain headaches.  

	

        for a female under 45

		4 parts clematis

		1 part raspberry leaves

		1 part spearmint leaves

		1 part bear berry leaves

	take a tea made from 3T of mixture to 1.5C water, 2 times daily.



	As a standard practice with an herbal remedy, consult with an

expert medical source: Standard disclaimer











==========

Subject: Re: herbs for serious headaches??

From: reynold@binah.cc.brandeis.edu ("Susan Reynold (w/out the s)")

Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 15:09:29 GMT

--------

>

>	IMHO a better solution would be clematis vine.  A strong tea made

>from the leaves and stems of this vine is highly sucessful an many cases.

>I am currently treating 3 cases of classic migrain headaches with a tea

>where clematis is the active.  In all three cases, the subject did not

>respond to western-medicine's normal treatments for migrain headaches.  

>	

>        for a female under 45

>		4 parts clematis

>		1 part raspberry leaves

>		1 part spearmint leaves

>		1 part bear berry leaves

>	take a tea made from 3T of mixture to 1.5C water, 2 times daily.

>

>	As a standard practice with an herbal remedy, consult with an

>expert medical source: Standard disclaimer



Would you drink this twice a day rain or shine to *prevent* the possible

headache or would you drink it only when the headache was already there

or on the way (migrain sufferers can usually tell when one is on the way)?



Susan









==========

Subject: Re: Re:herbs for serious headaches??

From: priag@NSD.3Com.COM (Pria Graves)

Date: 26 Oct 93 22:04:56 GMT

--------



   Jay Brummet writes: 

   	Linda Stevenson wrote:

   	> Are there any herbs that help migrainal type headaches



   : Dan Andrews suggested Pennyroyal



	   Pennyroyal can be quite dangerous, it MUST NEVER be taken

   by a woman who might be preg.  No matter how unlikely it is that she

   could be pg.  Pennyroyal can and does cause miscarrage, and other adverse

   side affects.



	   IMHO a better solution would be clematis vine.  A strong tea made

   from the leaves and stems of this vine is highly sucessful an many cases.

   I am currently treating 3 cases of classic migrain headaches with a tea

   where clematis is the active.  In all three cases, the subject did not

   respond to western-medicine's normal treatments for migrain headaches.  



	   for a female under 45

		   4 parts clematis

		   1 part raspberry leaves

		   1 part spearmint leaves

		   1 part bear berry leaves

	   take a tea made from 3T of mixture to 1.5C water, 2 times daily.



	   As a standard practice with an herbal remedy, consult with an

   expert medical source: Standard disclaimer



I am glad the warning was posted (for the benefit of those who don't know 

of the risks of Pennyroyal) but I find the tone of the posting to be a bit

patronizing:  there are plenty of women under 45 who are positive that 

they are not pregnant and could use pennyroyal without fear of

pregnancy-related complications.  If non-pregnancy related side effects are

serious enough to merit a major warning, please let us know... but then

you needn't label the alternative tea as "for a female under 45".



Regards,



Pria









==========

Subject: Re:herbs for serious headaches??

From: jb6778@u.cc.utah.edu (Jay Brummett/Computer Services SLC Public)

Date: 25 Oct 1993 13:24:58 -0600

--------

Concerning my last post about use of clematis for migrain headaches



Susan asked whether or not to use it "rain or shine" or just when

one has a migrain in progress.  I recommend twice a day, morning and

night every day.  If as Susan mentioned one has "precursor" awareness

that an attack is about to begin, I recommend drinking several glasses

of water, followed by another dose of tea.  However, this remedy is not

greatly effective in stopping the migrain attack.  It is a preventative,

maintenance treatment.  For those individuals for whom it works (about 50%)

continued use provides relief from attacks.



PS: to Susan, if you want to discuss specifics of your problem

     feel free to e-mail me at jay@slcpl.lib.ut.us



Regards,

jay

Cecala Ptehincalaska

-----











==========

Subject: Re: herbs for serious headaches??

From: srt@aero.org (Scott 'Dr. Pain' Turner)

Date: 25 Oct 93 20:58:07 GMT

--------

I've been taking Feverfew as a headache preventitive.  I can't say yet

as to its effectiveness.



					-- Scott T.









==========

Subject: Re:herbs for serious headaches??

From: jb6778@u.cc.utah.edu (Jay Brummett/Computer Services SLC Public)

Date: 27 Oct 1993 07:48:52 -0600

--------



>From u.cc.utah.edu!park.uvsc.edu!news.provo.novell.com!news.byu.edu!news.kei.com!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!bridge2!priag Wed Oct 27 07:33:55 1993

Path: u.cc.utah.edu!park.uvsc.edu!news.provo.novell.com!news.byu.edu!news.kei.com!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!bridge2!priag

From: priag@NSD.3Com.COM (Pria Graves)

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.herbs

Subject: Re: Re:herbs for serious headaches??

Message-ID: <PRIAG.93Oct26150456@tenaya.NSD.3Com.COM>

Date: 26 Oct 93 22:04:56 GMT

References: <2agkje$807@u.cc.utah.edu>

Sender: news@bridge2.NSD.3Com.COM

Organization: 3Com Corp., Santa Clara, CA.

Lines: 39

Nntp-Posting-Host: tenaya.nsd.3com.com

In-reply-to: jb6778@u.cc.utah.edu's message of 25 Oct 93 13:33:34 GMT







>>	   for a female under 45

>>		   4 parts clematis

>>		   1 part raspberry leaves

>>		   1 part spearmint leaves

>>		   1 part bear berry leaves

>>	   take a tea made from 3T of mixture to 1.5C water, 2 times daily.



>>	   As a standard practice with an herbal remedy, consult with an

>> expert medical source: Standard disclaimer



>I am glad the warning was posted (for the benefit of those who don't know 

>of the risks of Pennyroyal) but I find the tone of the posting to be a bit

>patronizing:  there are plenty of women under 45 who are positive that 

>they are not pregnant and could use pennyroyal without fear of

>pregnancy-related complications.  If non-pregnancy related side effects are

>serious enough to merit a major warning, please let us know... but then

>you needn't label the alternative tea as "for a female under 45".



	I want to appologize to Pria if my under 45 comment offended her.  This

was not the intent.  Nor was the age choosen as a result of the inclusion of

pennyroyal.  I fully agree that any woman is fully capable of be "positive"

that they are not pregnant.  Also many woman over 45 can still become

pregnant.



	I tried to point out the possible danger of pennyroyal with

regards to pregnancy as a seperate issue from the treatment of

migrain headaches.  IMHO and experience a different approach to

treatment is required for women older than their middle to late

forties.  I still recommend clematas as the active, but change

the helper herbs to reflect the older patient, men also need differing

treatment as hey age also.  I regret that I did not make this clearer.



	As a postscript I would never recommend pennyroyal as a 

migrain treatment for men or women, as IMHO other herbs are both

safer and more effective.



regards

jay











==========

Subject: Re:herbs for serious headaches??

From: jb6778@u.cc.utah.edu (Jay Brummett/Computer Services SLC Public)

Date: 30 Oct 1993 12:58:30 -0600

--------

	Someone sent me e-mail concerning where to find certain

herbs that I recommended in responce to a periovous post.  I mis-

placed that e-mail message {read lost:)}, so I'll post here and hope

that it will find its way to the person who wanted it and hopefully not

bore the rest of you.



	Clematis - is a vine that grows in the western US, I don't 

	know if it grows else where.  It is found wild in the inter-

	mountian west and is also highly cultivated as a creeper in

	western landscaping.  I gather both the wild and the cultivated.

	Actually the cultivated version (w/puple flowers) seems to be

	better for med use than the wild version.  Use the stems & leaves



	BearBerry - is a manzanita(sp?) known as uva ursi.  It grows

	throughout the west and is sometimes called Indian tobacco.  This

	plant is widely used in the Pacific Northwest as a landscaping 

	ground cover.  Use the leaves.  I understand that it is used

	widely by non-Indian herbalist.  It is used widely within my

	tribe, and by other medicine people from other tribes.



	Spearmint & Raspberry leaves are very common everywhere.



	Hope this helps

regards

jay

Cecala Ptehincalaska

--- 













==========

Subject: need canine lymphosarcosis info

From: trader@cellar.org (Howard Roark)

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 93 21:47:01 EDT

--------

Today my dog (10-year-old male Airedale) was diagnosed with lymphosarcosis

(cancer of the lymph nodes).  Chemo is out of the question.  



He started taking prednisolone today, but that's only supposed to reduce the

swelling for approximately 4-8 weeks.



Can anybody recommend any alternative therapies, suggestions for pain

relief, or anything else that I might want to know in dealing with this?



E-mail please, and I'll summarize and post.



Thanks.





Howard Roark      | "On the wire, that is living..."

trader@cellar.org |     - Jerry Harrison

Programmer        | "The louder the music, the better the code"

Cool Geek         |     - somebody in _The Cuckoo's Egg_









==========

Subject: Re: Looking for Organic b.c. multi-reply

From: morphis@FNALA.FNAL.GOV

Date: 27 Oct 1993 22:25:09 GMT

--------

    This is a long post with 

    mild flames (around S.S I'm not about to claim major flames) 

    aimed at both the humor/usenet impaired and the sensitivity impaired, 

    poor jokes and general pontification about this strand.



    read, think, flame, hit n,

    Robert Morphis



>Newsgroup: alt.folklore.urban,sci.skeptic,alt.consciousness,alt.folklore.herbs

>From: camilla@netcom.com (Camilla Cracchiolo)

>Subject: Re: Looking for Organic method of Birth Control, advice wanted

>Followup: alt.folklore.urban,sci.skeptic,alt.consciousness,alt.folklore.herbs

>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1993 03:36:39 GMT

>Lines: 32

>

>Lee Rudolph (lrudolph@black.clarku.edu) wrote:

>: In alt.consciousness, of all places, ralph@thecoast.gvg.tek.com 

>: (Ralph Williams) writes (with 100-column lines, follow-up set 

>: to alt.conspiracy, and distribution set to usa--all changed):

>

>: >I'm searching to see if there is such a thing as a 

>: >totally organic method of Birth

>: >Control. My suspicion is that there is, and the information 

>: >has been supressed by

>: >large drug and latex comanies. I was talking with a friend 

>: >who knows a couple that

>: >used something like the woman eathing Carrot Seeds before 

>: >and/or after making love and it worked for

>: >them. I'm going to try and contact them to see where 

>: >they got their information.

>: >Does anybody else have any suggestions or books they can recommend on this

>: >subject. Any information would be greatly appreciated. 

>

>: >Thanks,

>: >Ralph			

>

>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>From: bevan@aa.wl.com (Beth Bevan)

>

>The sympto-thermal method is totally organic and has been used

>by various family members and acquaintances of mine for years with 

>success, but it requires you to be committed to monitoring your

>body. There are of course many abortificants in the plant world,

>again these have been used by people I know with success, but its

>not something I would recommend. Any good book on birth control

>can give you information on the sympto-thermal method.

>

>Its interesting to me that most of the responses to this post which

>were of no value at all came from males. I wonder how big a joke it

>would be if they were faced with our choices for birth control.

>

>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>From: dstothar@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Diane Stothard)

>

>Thank you, Ralph, for trying to do YOUR part in the query for BC.

>

>>Its interesting to me that most of the responses to this post which

>>were of no value at all came from males. I wonder how big a joke it

>>would be if they were faced with our choices for birth control.

>

>Amen to that, Beth!

>



    O.K. let us go back and read the original post, it was posted here by

    somebody (Lee Rudolph)other than the original writer(Ralph Williams

    of thecoast.gvg.tek.com which I could not reach),

    Ralph apparrently posted it ?only? to alt.conspiracy and 

    alt.consciousness (Lee, could you clear this up?) which have nothing 

    to do with birth control

.  

    I do wish Lee had posted it to sci.skeptic and alt.folklore.urban 

    where it is primarily of amusement value separately from the other 

    groups, on the other hand if Ralph had been serious about getting 

    an answer he would have posted it to those groups and sci.medicine 

    instead of alt.conspiracy.



    Ralph suggests a big conspiracy to suppress organic methods of birth 

    control, I suggest the rhythm method's bad reputation the lack of money 

    making potential of natural methods of birth control and the apparent 

    inability of most Americans to use the library are far more likely

    reasons that natural bc is not well known.



    He then suggests carrot seeds as a method of birth control, I am sorry

    but when combined with Lee's commentary we at S.S are not going to

    take it too seriously.  Had Ralph posted it here in the first place

    sci.skeptic's denizens might have made some semi-serious attempts

    at answering it.



    Having read it a third time and still not able to ping

    the alleged source I will stick my neck out and guess that it was

    a spoof.



    I must disagree with Diane and Beth that it is interesting that

    the null content posts came largely (exclusively?) from males

    I find it entirely predictable, the seriousness of bc is not an

    everyday thing for most males, so when presented with a architypical

    paranoid post (that happens to be about bc) A.F.U and S.S male members 

    (hmmm sounds somewhat kinky) are going to laugh.



>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>From: cecilw@access.isc-br.com (Cecil Williams)

>

>(Diane Stothard) writes:

>> Beth writes:

>>Thank you, Ralph, for trying to do YOUR part in the query for BC.

>>>Its interesting to me that most of the responses to this post which

>>>were of no value at all came from males. I wonder how big a joke it

>          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>>would be if they were faced with our choices for birth control.

>>

>>Amen to that, Beth!

>

>It's interesting to me that Beth and Dianne have no sense of humor at all.



    overstatement



>There's always a need for humor. Humor is good for the soul. Apparently 

>you two have none... I won't degrade myself to your level by casting 



    how is this apparent?  I will guess that they are not S.S folks

    a (very) sloppy read of the letter leaves one feeling sorry for Ralph 



>aspersions on all female-dom, as I happen to know a few women who DO 

>know when to laugh. I found value in chuckling at Ralph's post. 



    you seem to be guilty of the same crimes as Beth and Diane, sloppy

    reading and failure to look at context.  In alt.folklore.herbs and

    alt.consciousness birth control and dislike of traditional medicine

    is not a starting point for possible jokes.



>Cecil

>cecilw@access.isc-br.com



>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>From: dstothar@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Diane Stothard)

>Excuse me, Cecil, if I found no humor in the post. 



    I found it very humorous if only because I don't want to cry.  Assuming 

    that I am wrong about it being a spoof, I have to agree with Diane

    it is not at all humorous that our education system could turn out

    somebody as ignorant and incapable of rational thought as Ralph, it 

    is also not at all humorous that our medical system has apparently 

    alienated him, the unscientific biases and lack of humanity of the 

    medical system are real and should be changed.(that last statement

    about the medical system was of course a generalization that doesn't

    apply to all parts of it)



>I thought it was an honest quest for alternative BC.

>I do not appreciate, nor do I think I deserve, to be 

>flamed by you for my reply.



    That was a flame? A bic flick maybe.



>Diane

>

>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>From: bevan@aa.wl.com (Beth Bevan)  



    probably the classiest member of this motley crew.



>Cecil Williams (cecilw@access.isc-br.com) wrote:

>: > Beth writes:

>: It's interesting to me that Beth and Dianne have no sense of humor at all.

>: Cecil

>: cecilw@access.isc-br.com

>

>Well thank you Cecil for not degrading yourself to my level! I 

>hate it when people degrade themselves to my level, I like being

>down here all by myself! 

>

>I'm also totally impressed by your brilliant intuitive knowledge

>of my lack of a sense of humour (it was surgically removed.)

>

>Some subjects have a universal appeal to laughter, but certain

>subjects that some groups find funny can be painful for others,

>thats all. Birth control is a very touchy subject for some, and

>its failure even more so.

>

>But back to herbs, take some valerian!



    This raises a question, what is the advantage of organic birth

    control?  As Carl noted there are plenty of dangerous natural

    substances.  Because of the medical profession's (?recent*?) allergy

    to things "natural" various herbs that might be useful are 

    unlikely to have undergone any rigorous tests for either safety

    or efficacy.

    * comments from sci.med folks?  I will make a WAG that this allergy 

    started in the 40's and has just started dieing off in the last decade.

    

    Carrot seeds (blah), let us say they work, then how do they work?

    The only two methods I can think of would be that the seeds:

    1)significantly change acidity or other chem. balance within the 

    vagina/womb making it difficult for the sperm to survive, or

    2)prevent the fertilized egg from implanting in the womb.



    If they have that strong of an effect what other effects are they

    having?



    On the other hand what is wrong with condoms?  Check out Cons.Rep.,

    get the most reliable and use regularly.



    I can understand some gut level aversion to long term exposure to 

    hormones,

    but how is a natural abortifacant used regularly less worrisome

    than spermacide used regularly?



mild humor follows then some more serious stuff



>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)

>

>=: Lee "I suspect he wants a method which is both totally organic

>=: and *effective*, though he didn't say so" Rudolph

>=

>=The last 'organic' birth control method I heard of was rhythm.

>=

>=It is named 'Vatican roulette' for good reason....

>

>There are quite a few 100% effective organic methods of birth control.  Let's

>see now, there's pumiliotoxin (secreted by a South American frog), various

>compounds with cyanide groups found in nature, digitalis (found naturally in

>foxglove), and so on.

>

>Oh, the question was about non-fatal natural methods for birth control?  Well,

>there's abstinence.

>------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

>

>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>From: cecilw@access.isc-br.com (Cecil Williams)

>

>Actually, I suspect abstinence is the cause of a GREAT many homicides 

>and suicides, and therefore is NOT a truly "non-fatal" natural method of 

>birth-control at all..

>

>

>Cecil

>cecilw@access.isc-br.com

>

>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>From: cary@afone.as.arizona.edu (Cary Kittrell)

>

>And, laughing at a man at the appropriate time is a highly successful

>means of contraception...

>

>cary



    but I suspect that this could also be a fatal method of birth control!)



>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>From: ross-c@scs.leeds.ac.uk (R Clement)

>>

>>Q: What do you call couples who practice the rhythm method?

>>A: Parents.

>

>Not only 'Parents', but 'Catholics' too. In actual fact, Catholics are very 

>nice people, 



    gee that's real white of you.



>but occasionally they act a little off-beat.

>

>Cheers,

>Ross-c



    I suspect that various fundies who practice the rhythm method and it's 

    varients would be very upset to be lumped with the Catholics.



>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>From: camilla@netcom.com (Camilla Cracchiolo)

>

>Carl Fink (carlf@panix.com) wrote:

>:    I hate to point this out, but the rhythm method is about as effective

>: as, say, the sponge, if used correctly.  Over 95%.  Just because the

>: Catholic Church promotes it doesn't make it useless, folks.



    As I recall my history the original rhythm method was proposed in the 

    1800s and was based on major misconceptions about the fertility cycle,

    any effectiveness was purely accidental.  Around WWII the Catholic Church

    got around to reading some bio texts (sorry but that is the way it sounds)

    and revised the method making it somewhat less than useless, the problem

    still being that women are not perfectly regular and if they don't keep

    track of what is going on...



>:   The lack of spontaneity 



    Two weeks out of the month you can be perfectly spontanious,

    the rest of the time you just can't have genital contact.



>:and lack of disease prevention 



    ahem, a proper Catholic doesn't need to worry about disease prevention.



>:don't appeal to

>: me, personally, at this moment, but that doesn't make it useless.



>Well, as a matter of fact, I participated in a small study on ovulation

>detection, where women used vaginal speculums to look for visual

>signs of ovulation (i.e. changes in the cervical mucus and size of the

>cervical os) in combination with temperature changes.  We found that it

>was very easy to tell when ovulation had occurred after the fact, but

>extremely difficult to predict when it was going to happen.  

>

>We decided that it would be effective if and only if you were willing

>to abstain from sex about 3 weeks out of 4.



    I would like to see that study and it's size, how did you define 

    effective?  My wife is very regular and we use condoms about 1 

    week out of 4 with success.  My person WAG that half of the population 

    could, after tracking themselves for say 4 cycles could hit the 90% 

    rate with 2 weeks out of 4 of abstinence.



>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>From: rrd@fc.hp.com (Ray Depew)

> pgh@vaxi.bton.ac.uk writes:

>: The chinese discovered that men who ate food fried in cotton oil were 

>: producing [fewer sperm]



    uhhh, sorry the Chinese medical machine is not what I call a credible

    source.



>Boy, if that's the case, then let's all start eating more Fritos!  The big

>Frito factory in Lubbock, Texas, buys all the cottonseed oil for miles 

>around (why do you think they built it there?), and the distinctive smell

>of Fritos corn chips is not as much due to the toasted corn as it is due

>to the "cooked" oil.

>

>Regards

>Ray

>

>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>From: j0m1742@venus.tamu.edu (MANHART, JAMES)

>

>Crisco is hydrogenated cotton oil so I doubt that cotton seed oil has the

>indicated affect.  If gossypol is the active ingredient, Also, the amounts 

>of it would probably be very small, at least in the highly refined oils 

>sold commercially.  Is it possible the Chinese

>used unrefined oils?  Also, I believe that gossypol is somewhat toxic.



    Jim, could you expand on this, it seems to be a mix of non-sequetors

    and non-parsing English words, with a hint of late night composition?



>*********************************************************************

>Jim Manhart, Dept. of Biology, Texas A&M University, College Station, 

>TX 77843-3258, (409) 845-3356, email:  J-Manhart@TAMU.EDU (Internet) 



    Gee maybe this is why the sperm count has dropped 50% over the last few 

    decades in Europe and the US?  BAN CRISCO!(no joke, Finland is an 

    exception, as I recall if we drop another 50% we will be in big trouble)



>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>From: kokillou@eos.ncsu.edu (KYLE OLIN KILLOUGH)

>

>Oh now that  is just what they wanted for an answer there... NOT... 

>if your gonna post something, don't waste our time, post something

>with a viable point... if they wanted that for an answer they wouldn't 

>have been asking the damn question. What are you thinking man?



    Oh, chill out!









==========

Subject: HELP

From: genh@astro.ocis.temple.edu (Jennifer Hooper)

Date: 27 Oct 93 22:36:00 GMT

--------



	I think i must the absolute worst menstrual cramps in the world. None of the medications that the gynochologist gives me work. By combining ibuprofen with a strong prescription analgesic, such as anaprox or orudis, i am able to curb them for a few hors. However, I am concerned about taking to many pills at once. I go through entirely too much ibuprofen to be goodfor me. Are there any sorts of herbal madications that i can supplement my current prescription with, instead of taking so many drugs? (Maybe som









ething more concentrateed than tea?)

	Thanx.  









==========

Subject: Re: HELP

From: nightowl@athena.mit.edu (Heather Grove)

Date: 28 Oct 1993 12:37:40 GMT

--------

  	I think i must the absolute worst menstrual cramps in the world. None of the medications that the 

    gynochologist gives me work. By combining ibuprofen with a strong prescription analgesic, such as 

    anaprox or orudis, i am able to curb them for a few hors. However, I am concerned about taking to many 

    pills at once. I go through entirely too much ibuprofen to be goodfor me. Are there any sorts of herbal 

    madications that i can supplement my current prescription with, instead of taking so many drugs? (Maybe

     something more concentrateed than tea?)

    From: genh@astro.ocis.temple.edu (Jennifer Hooper)





I and my housemate have always found that raspberry leaf tea or tincture is very effective -- I recall

hearing that the raspberry leaves contain a muscle relaxant that works specifically on the muscles in

the uterus.  The tea doesn't taste very good and isn't all that strong, so we make tinctures.  Soak the 

leaves in enough alcohol (anything over 80proof) to cover it and half again (approximately; it doesn't

matter all that closely) and leave it for a month or two.  Strain off into bottles and put an eyedropper 

full or two into your tea (I actually take it in my cocoa).  It's the only thing we use.  It might at least help,

together with your prescriptions.  Since its main use is as a muscle relaxant, I'd probably suggest taking

some kind of a painkiller too, otherwise it'll be harder for the muscles to relax (pain and cramping are

a vicious circle).  At any rate it might make a useful supplement to the things your doctor is giving you.

h.













==========

Subject: Re: HELP

From: clynne@cco.caltech.edu (Constance L. Villani)

Date: 28 Oct 1993 17:42:33 GMT

--------

Somebody (I lost the attribution) wrote:

>I think i must the absolute worst menstrual cramps in the world.... 

....snip...

>Are there any sorts of herbal 

>madications that i can supplement my current prescription with, instead of taking so many drugs? (Maybe

>something more concentrateed than tea?)



Ginger helps with cramps a lot, at least, it did while I was pregnant.



I ate it candied and in gingerbread.  It also helps with nausea.

I love ginger!



:) Constance











==========

Subject: Re: HELP

From: leira@athena.com (Linda L. Julien)

Date: 18 Nov 1993 23:24:09 GMT

--------

In article <CGn1BM.9F5@ssi.edc.org> gclark@ssi.edc.org (Geri Clark)  

writes:

> 

> Does anybody have any advice on an herbal remedy for amenorrhea?  I

> haven't had a period in about 10 months!



There are things that you can try, but I hesitate to suggest any of them  

via this medium.  Many of the things that can bring on a period are very  

unsafe to consume in the wrong dosages.  You might want to track down a  

skilled herbalist in your area who can work with you an monitor your  

progress.



I am wondering about a few things, however.



How old are you?  Young people can have *really* weird patterns in their  

cycles.



How tall are you and how much do you weigh?  How much body fat do you have  

versus how much muscle?  If you don't have enough body fat, you won't  

menstruate, plain and simple.  Women who are in "really good shape"  

sometimes don't menstruate because they don't have enough fat on their  

bodies.



Do you have a lot of stress in your life?  Stress can hold off your period  

indefinitely.  This used to happen to me, even when I was on the Pill.



What has the doctor said?  Have you gone to another doctor to get another  

opinion?  I'm sure there are a zillion other potential reasons that this  

could happen.  I've successfully used herbal methods to bring on late  

periods, but I wouldn't even BEGIN to suggest something without a whole  

lot more information.



Good luck,

Linda









==========

Subject: Re: HELP

From: grimya@atlantis.ksu.ksu.edu (Lyn/Grimya)

Date: 19 Nov 1993 18:24:20 -0600

--------





	I have really weird patterns, too.  Something I tried and appeared to

help was parsley oil.  You can find them at WalMart in garlic and parsley oil

pills.  I took one in the morning and one at night.  Parlsey is supposed to be an

emmenogauge (I'm sure I misspelled that).  Hope this helps.

-- 

Seeya!

Lyn/Grimya

grimya@matt.ksu.ksu.edu









==========

Subject: advice needed

From: cshelly@vax.clarku.edu

Date: 28 OCT 93 17:44:48 GMT

--------

        Hi! I'm lookong for any info concerning herbs that could decrease the   pain, cramping, and bloating caused by colitis.  Thanks!









==========

Subject: Re: advice needed

From: kmdolezal@tiny.computing.csbsju.edu

Date: 29 Oct 1993 03:14:40 GMT

--------

In article <28OCT93.17444888@vax.clarku.edu>, cshelly@vax.clarku.edu writes:

>        Hi! I'm lookong for any info concerning herbs that could decrease the

>   pain, cramping, and bloating caused by colitis.  Thanks!

I have "probable crones disease" a form of colitis I guess :-). Pepermint tea

has always helped any type of cramps for me, but I would also be interested in

other suggestions.         

-katya











==========

Subject: Re: advice needed

From: gjduby@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Gwen Duby)

Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1993 22:07:42 GMT

--------

>In article <28OCT93.17444888@vax.clarku.edu>, cshelly@vax.clarku.edu writes:

>        Hi! I'm lookong for any info concerning herbs that could decrease the

>   pain, cramping, and bloating caused by colitis.  Thanks!



My sister, who works in a 'health-food' store, once said that Vitamin

E and Selenium will help someone suffering from colitis.  However, I

am not sure about the correct dosages.  You may wish to check with

someone in such a store.



Gwen.











==========

Subject: Poison ivey

From: chicken@astro.umd.edu ()

Date: 29 Oct 1993 19:30:54 GMT

--------

A friend of mine has had poison ivey for about 2 moths

now and has not had a whole lot of lcuk getting

ride of it . I fany opne has any idea please dropm e a note she has tried callimine, and aleo but it only helps a little

asny help would be apearcted



Thanks\

cm











==========

Subject: Re: Question: Dry Skin

From: ajz@garfield.freac.fsu.edu (A. J.)

Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1993 21:08:16 GMT

--------

In article <2as1b7$i65@news.mic.ucla.edu> jagordon@agsm.ucla.edu writes:

>

>In article <2ar1ce$gd5@inxs.concert.net> Lynn Stepanek writes:

>>

>>My husband has the severe dry skin condition called Ichtheocktheosis 

>>(sp?).  Are there any herbs or vitamins, etc . . . that may help 

>>hydrate his skin?  He already uses a stong lotion that has Vitamins

>>A,D,E and aloe in it.  We also keep a humidifier in the bed room in

>>the winter (winter is bad, summer is o.k. as long as he doesn't swim

>>(in clorine or salt water) too much.

>

>Mind you I have not tried this, but the herb/supplement in my health food store

>recommends flax seed oil for skin.  He claims it can do wonders.

>Now, the oil is available, it is kept refrigerated at the store and

>should be at home as well. Alternativly, you can buy the seeds, much less

>expensive, grind them in a coffee mill or the blender and sprinkle on top

>of cereal, etc.  The seeds are undigestable whole.

>So, try it for a month, couldn't hurt.

>Jan



I have also heard that flaxseed oil can work wonders for dry skin.









==========

Subject: Re: Question: Dry Skin

From: milom@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Sihvonen Binder)

Date: 1 Nov 1993 03:20:24 GMT

--------



re:  dry skin remedies



This may help.  I've copied it directly from Earl Mindell's New and 

Revised Vitamin Bible, a reference book in the health food store I work in.



page 220



Vitman-E oil seems to work  when applied to dry skin, as do oils rich in 

vitamins A and D.  As a dietary supplement, if you're not eating enough 

sweet potatoes, carrots, liver and tomatoes, try 25,000 IU Vitamin A for 

two weeks, then cut dosage back to 10,000.  If you've cut all fats, put 

some back i n the form of polyunsaturated oil.  Or try 3 to 6 lecithin 

capsules 3 times daily.  Or, 1 tbsp cod liver oil taken with milk or 

juice 1 hour before breakfast.



Also, tell your husband not to use a lotion.  Try using direct oils 

instead.  Lotion tends to bring natural oils to the surface of your skin 

and therefor robs the skin of essential oils it needs.  Bathe with gels, 

for dry skin, instead of soap, too.  Vitamin A or E gels or mild soaps 

can be purchased at most health food stores.  And, plenty of glasses of 

water daily.

Lisa (using my husband's account)















==========

Subject: Re: Question: Dry Skin

From: music@erich.triumf.ca (FRED W. BACH)

Date: 1 Nov 1993 09:09 PST

--------

In article <2ar1ce$gd5@inxs.concert.net>, Lynn Stepanek writes...

# 

#My husband has the severe dry skin condition called Ichtheocktheosis 

#(sp?).  Are there any herbs or vitamins, etc . . . that may help 

#hydrate his skin?  He already uses a stong lotion that has Vitamins

#A,D,E and aloe in it.  We also keep a humidifier in the bed room in

#the winter (winter is bad, summer is o.k. as long as he doesn't swim

#(in clorine or salt water) too much.

# 

#Thanks for any help in advance.

# 

#Lynn Stepanek

#vaughn@queens.edu



  I posted an earlier article answering this one, but this morning I

 cancelled it.  I imagine that everyone read it anyway.  There was

 an error in it:



    I had referred to "Red River Cereal" which I said contained flax

 seed.  Well, maybe it does.  However, the cereal which I was remembering

 and to which I was referring is called, here in Western Canada at least,

 "Sunny Boy Cereal".  It does contain oil-bearing seeds and seems to work

 on a dry scalp, for one thing.



                   **************************



  This brings up a thought I was meditating upon this morning.  You know,

 when my parents went to school (being brought up on a farm), they learned

 a lot of little items about foods, herbs, folk-cures and the like.



   Modern medicine came along, along with the new love affair with

 Science before and after World War II, and about the first thing that

 happened, based on testimony from my parents and grandparents, is that

 the cavity rate in children's teeth shot sky-high.  I think the reason

 for this was two-fold:



      1.  We started relying upon modern science (still in its infancy)

          to totally guide our lives.  It gave us good things like DDT,

          and radioactive Iodine (around Hanford), and Cesium fallout

          (in milk) from the atom-bomb tests, and lead in our air (from

          gasoline additives) and in paints, just to name a few items.



      2.  As a result of our move to the cities and as a result of our

          depeding on Science and Industry, we got away from the natural

          and more whole foods we had on the farms, and we started to eat

          a lot of things out of tinned cans or processes to death and

          sold in cardboard boxes.



   There were so many things I find out now which really work, and which

 our grandparents and their parents knew, but that never got passed down

 to us.



   I would hope that in this information age we can document and keep

 and find old knowledge whenever we need to do so.  Three cheers for

 the historians.  May they have success.



 Fred W. Bach ,    Operations Group        |  Internet: music@erich.triumf.ca

 TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility)    |  Voice:  604-222-1047 loc 327/278

 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS            |  FAX:    604-222-1074

 University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA   V6T 2A3



 These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question.

 They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers.







