



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 17:14:15 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Tom Rue <hawthorn@ZELACOM.COM>

Subject:      Natural stimulant



Can anyone recommend a natural stimulant which does no harm to the body

(i.e., an alternative to caffeine)?









 --

 TOM or CARMEN RUE - Monticello NY 12701-0706

 hawthorn@zelacom.com - http://www.zelacom.com/~hawthorn/welcome.html

 Listowner - SULLCOUNTY: An Internet journal of local thought

 http://www.zelacom.com/~hawthorn/sullivan_county.html (New York)

 Topic Administrator - Mental Health/Mental Illness, CDC/WONDER

 U.S. Centers for Disease Control - rue1100w@wonder.em.cdc.gov

 THE WRITER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OR HER OPINIONS. - Copyright 1996.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 17:08:13 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         John Stankiewicz <radiant@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds



At 12:52 PM 8/31/96 +0100, you wrote:

>>At 09:19 PM 8/30/96 -0500, you wrote:

>>>I work in a nursery school with toddlers and am constantly exposed to

>>>illness after illness.  Apparently my immune system is a little

>>>sluggish because I frequently have the flu or a cold or something else

>>>unpleasant.  Can anyone recommend something to kick my immune system

>>>into high gear?

>>>

>>>Thanks,

>>>Kasandra

>>

>>Kasandra, I don't know how your diet is like but that would be the number

>>one change.  Get yourself to a purifying and sattvic diet.  This consists of

>>primarily or optimally and maximally raw (I don't mean raw meat) foods,

>>cosisiting of vegetables and/or fruit, and perhaps some grains and/or nuts

>>and/or seeds here and there depending on the climate in which you live, your

>>work, and how much you think and your emotional profile.

>

>Yeah, that's nice John, but this diet has never been proven in the real

>world, and is hogwash from a health standpoint, unless you succeed in

>eliminating all illness by whistling sacred mantras out your right nostril.



Paul, I guess this has never been proven to you.  This diet has been proven

to work in many sanitoriums around the world and there is much material on

this matter.  Of course there is no specific diet, since the right

combination has to be found for each individual depending on many factors,

but the diet is maximally raw.  You're simply attacking this because of your

training in a particular system, and that's fine, but you should not attack

other systems as these have not been unproven.



>>Avoid constipating and mucus causing foods, which are usually the refined

>>foods (refined white flower and refined white sugar products), and highly

>>concentrated foods.

>

>Avoid highly concentrated food like fruit, right?



Fruit is not considered a highly concentrated food.  Nuts, grains, seeds,

and meat fit that category.



>

>>If your digestion is not optimal you should supplement with enzymes and more

>>raw foods, as poor digestion usually leads to most problems that people

>>experience today.

>

>If your digestion isn't optimal, drop the raw food entirely and go back to

>the traditional diet of nearly all human beings since cooking was invented

>(50,000 years and counting). Enzyme supplementation is an absurd waste of

>money in almost all cases.

>



What did people eat before cooking was invented???  Adam and Eve didn't have

a hibachi, did they?  I also don't recall what I was doing 50,000 years ago,

you must.



By the way, how do you know what the state of health of the average man was

a few thousand years ago?



>>Fasting would be one of the best things you could do.

>

>Fasting is the WORST approach to preventing colds, though it may help treat

>colds, given their congestive nature.



Eliminating any accumulation of mucus is the WORST approach?  Illogical.



>

>>Start with a 24 hr

>>fast from Saturday dinner to Sunda dinner and drink only pure water with a

>>squeeze of lemon in-between.  That gives you 52 days of fasting a year.

>>Then do a three day fast at least once every couple of months, again water

>>and lemon or if that is too intense then just water.  To get off the fast

>>eat some cooked vegetables such as cabbage (something benign in other words)

>>that would stimulate a bowel movement.  Once a year do a 10 day fast.

>

>Once a year shoot yourself in the leg. The antibiotics the doctor gives you

>will clear away any accumulating bacteria.

>



Paul, the above outburst, and this one >eliminating all illness by whistling

sacred mantras out your right nostril.<

is rather childish.  This kind of nastiness is not only uncalled for but

very unprofessional.  I hope you don't treat your clients this way.  And

this is also a child's way of attemtping to dominate a conference such as

this one.  Grow up and be more civil and tolerant.  Express your opinions,

tolerate the beliefs of thers, and be nice.  "It's easier to catch flies

with honey than with vinegar".



>>But

>>before you embark on any lengthy fast study the matter by reading several

>>books on the subject, be setting a definite date, by getting your family's

>>support, taking time off, etc..

>>

>>The above would be one of the best things you could do to boost your immune

>>system.  After that there are different herbs that would help to boost your

>>immunity and various foods such as Spirulina, Chlorella, Dunaliella, and so

>>on.  If you ever do get a "bug" then I have found colloidal silver to be

>>quick acting and safe.  There is plenty of information on this on the

>>Internet, just do a search.  Other people here can recommend various herbs,

>>such as Echinacea, but we have to know more about you and your body type to

>>know which herbs would be more effective for you.

>

>'We'? You PERSONALLY have acknowledged that you have NO knowledge in this

>field, so quit pretending.

>



I do have knowledge in the field and try not to keep my blinders on.

Your cup is too full Paul.  No more can be added.



>>I have an analysis based

>>on the Ayurveda doshas which reveals such things depending on whether your

>>"mind-body connection" or dosha, is predominantly vata, pitta, kapha, or a

>>combination.  Ayurveda is said to be a 5000 year old art and science of life

>>which has proven itself time and again.  It focuses on getting the physical

>>body back into harmony through the use of not only foods, but herbs, your

>>lifestyle, relationships, and so on.  You may find this of interest.  There

>>are several books on it.  Two I like are "Prakruti" by Dr. Robert E.

>>Svoboda, and "Perfect Health" by Dr. Deepak Chopra.

>>

>>John.

>

>Snore. The blind wishing to lead.



Keep snoring, this conference would be more pleasant.



>

>Paul

>

>

http://www.radiant-living.com (where we try to avoid premature cognitive

commitments or old paradigms and present new ones!)

The average person has about 65,000 thoughts a day.  What is disconcerting

is that more than 95% of the thoughts are the same ones as the person had

yesterday.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 12:40:12 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Anita Hales <hales1@KTN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Miss Manners & Pine Sap



A number of years ago I knew a Thlingit indian man who showed me a light

scar on his arm and told me how it happened.  When he was a boy, on a

hunting trip he cut his arm to the bone with a hatchet.  His father took

spruce pitch, warmed it over the fire in a pot and poured the pitch

directly into the wound and bound the wound tightly.  The binding was

changed every day being careful not to break open the wound.  The pitch

worked its way out of the wound and left very little scar and no infection

whatever.  I feel that pine pitch would serve the same purpose in this

case.  Pine tar has been used for many years for various purposes such as

psoriasis and lice and as a healing agent.

***********************************************************

Self-Heal (Prunella)  "...it serveth for the same that

Bugle doth, and in the world, there are not two

better wound herbes, as hath been been often

 proved."

John Gerard, 1597

************************************************************

----------

> From: vic hlushak <vhlushak@AWINC.COM>

>

>

> does anyone have any knowledge of pine sap (resin) as a healing agent?

My

> dadinlaw has a salve that includes that with a beeswax base. I  recall

> reading somewhere that the native americans used it????

>

> -all flames cheerfully replied to-

>

> vic



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 06:13:21 +0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Aggie <emeerwald@ALPHA1.CURTIN.EDU.AU>

Subject:      Re: Natural stimulant



Hi



How about dandelion?





At 17:14 31/08/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Can anyone recommend a natural stimulant which does no harm to the body

>(i.e., an alternative to caffeine)?

>

>

>

>

> --

> TOM or CARMEN RUE - Monticello NY 12701-0706

> hawthorn@zelacom.com - http://www.zelacom.com/~hawthorn/welcome.html

> Listowner - SULLCOUNTY: An Internet journal of local thought

> http://www.zelacom.com/~hawthorn/sullivan_county.html (New York)

> Topic Administrator - Mental Health/Mental Illness, CDC/WONDER

> U.S. Centers for Disease Control - rue1100w@wonder.em.cdc.gov

> THE WRITER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OR HER OPINIONS. - Copyright 1996.

>

The Lord bless you and keep you;

the Lord make His face shine upon you

and be gracious to you;

the lord turn his face towards you

and give you peace.

- Numbers 6:24-26 -



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 15:55:27 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Garcinia cambogia

In-Reply-To:  <199608312045.QAA22652@mail.inforamp.net>



>At 08:42 AM 8/31/96 -0700, you wrote:

>>This herb, from what we can find, is used to loose weight. It also

>>helps to increase the bodies metabolism of fat in green foods. Can this

>>reaction be translated into giving the person more energy?

>>

>>Thank's,

>>Randy and Cathy Froeba

>>

>

>I suppose, but doesn't Garcinia Cambogia also block some fat receptors?

>Isn't that how they hype it?  I'm not sure about the efficacy of that.

>Certainly liberating energy from fat cells would give you energy, and

>toxins.  But I don't think any herb on the planet will give you a lot of

>energy. Those that do either balance the glands so you don't block energy

>from flowing, or stimulate the nervous system. Good energy comes from the

>Prana, or Chi (Ki, Qi) and from foods.  If you have knots in your circuitry,

>so to speak (pranas, nadis, meridians, chakras, especially the spleen

>chakra, etc.), then you won't have good energy.

>

>John.



There is no such thing as a 'spleen chakra.'



More of your patented gobbledegook. Now about these plants 'unblocking'

your glands....



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 15:57:37 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Natural stimulant

In-Reply-To:  <199608312114.AA08781@zelacom.com>



>Can anyone recommend a natural stimulant which does no harm to the body

>(i.e., an alternative to caffeine)?



Why yes. Sufficient sleep, mild daily exercise, and regular meals.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 16:09:33 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds

In-Reply-To:  <199608312108.RAA22894@mail.inforamp.net>



>>>Kasandra, I don't know how your diet is like but that would be the number

>>>one change.  Get yourself to a purifying and sattvic diet.  This consists of

>>>primarily or optimally and maximally raw (I don't mean raw meat) foods,

>>>cosisiting of vegetables and/or fruit, and perhaps some grains and/or nuts

>>>and/or seeds here and there depending on the climate in which you live, your

>>>work, and how much you think and your emotional profile.

>>

>>Yeah, that's nice John, but this diet has never been proven in the real

>>world, and is hogwash from a health standpoint, unless you succeed in

>>eliminating all illness by whistling sacred mantras out your right nostril.

>

>Paul, I guess this has never been proven to you.  This diet has been proven

>to work in many sanitoriums around the world and there is much material on

>this matter.



Oh, there is plenty of 'material' I'm sure. But 99% of the people who have

ever lived have eaten a cooked diet. Why don't you explain that, if

optimally raw diets are the best for you?



>Of course there is no specific diet, since the right

>combination has to be found for each individual depending on many factors,

>but the diet is maximally raw.  You're simply attacking this because of your

>training in a particular system, and that's fine, but you should not attack

>other systems as these have not been unproven.



I am attacking it as unproven crap. The health benefits of spa diets are

short lived. Yogic dietary practices are generally useless or harmful

outside of yogic lifestyles.



>>>Avoid constipating and mucus causing foods, which are usually the refined

>>>foods (refined white flower and refined white sugar products), and highly

>>>concentrated foods.

>>

>>Avoid highly concentrated food like fruit, right?

>

>Fruit is not considered a highly concentrated food.  Nuts, grains, seeds,

>and meat fit that category.



Fruit is indeed a highly concentrated food, a strong tendency to imbalance

health.



>What did people eat before cooking was invented???  Adam and Eve didn't have

>a hibachi, did they?  I also don't recall what I was doing 50,000 years ago,

>you must.



We are fairly clear on the diets of early man. Certainly the cooking of

food predates the agricultural revolution by many thousands of years.



>By the way, how do you know what the state of health of the average man was

>a few thousand years ago?



Moot.



>>>Fasting would be one of the best things you could do.

>>

>>Fasting is the WORST approach to preventing colds, though it may help treat

>>colds, given their congestive nature.

>

>Eliminating any accumulation of mucus is the WORST approach?  Illogical.



There is no accumulation of mucus in people who have a healthy digestion,

such as is provided by a proper cooked food diet. The health food diets

developed in Europe in the last century are a counter to high-fat, high

alcohol diets in sedentary high-stress populations. A nursery school

teacher is not sedentary, that's for sure. And I'm sure they may wish to

get drunk from time to time, but they certainly don't drink like Europeans

once did (or Americans for that matter).



>>>Once a year do a 10 day fast.

>>

>>Once a year shoot yourself in the leg. The antibiotics the doctor gives you

>>will clear away any accumulating bacteria.

>>

>

>Paul, the above outburst, and this one >eliminating all illness by whistling

>sacred mantras out your right nostril.<

>is rather childish.  This kind of nastiness is not only uncalled for but

>very unprofessional.



Unprofessional? Spouting nonsense on a regular basis is unprofessional. I

would consider my comments humorous.



>I hope you don't treat your clients this way.  And

>this is also a child's way of attemtping to dominate a conference such as

>this one.  Grow up and be more civil and tolerant.  Express your opinions,

>tolerate the beliefs of thers, and be nice.  "It's easier to catch flies

>with honey than with vinegar".



Tolerance of nonsense is not my way.



>>>Other people here can recommend various herbs,

>>>such as Echinacea, but we have to know more about you and your body type to

>>>know which herbs would be more effective for you.

>>

>>'We'? You PERSONALLY have acknowledged that you have NO knowledge in this

>>field, so quit pretending.

>

>I do have knowledge in the field and try not to keep my blinders on.

>Your cup is too full Paul.  No more can be added.



How's your vitamin C transmutation experiment going, John?



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 16:29:46 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Joan <alan_grout@SUNSHINE.NET>

Subject:      Oregon Grape



Is Oregon Grape endangered?

Thanks

Joan



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:41:28 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Randy Froeba <htcw@GNA.COM>

Organization: Herbal Treasures and Cedar Works

Subject:      Re: Fibromyalgia and CFS



Michael J. User wrote:

>

> Hi, I am a massage therapist and have read the article. I don't know where

> you can get any of the herbs. Sorry.

> Michael Jacobus-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Michael,

What do you think of the article? Do you ,as a massage theraptist,

agree or disagree?



Randy and Cathy Froeba



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:56:52 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Randy Froeba <htcw@GNA.COM>

Organization: Herbal Treasures and Cedar Works

Subject:      Re: Garcinia cambogia



Paul Iannone wrote:

>

> >This herb, from what we can find, is used to loose weight. It also

> >helps to increase the bodies metabolism of fat in green foods. Can this

> >reaction be translated into giving the person more energy?

> >

> >Thank's,

> >Randy and Cathy Froeba

>

> Well, if by 'green food' you mean green angel food cake, maybe so. 'Greens'

> have next to no fat to begin with.

>

> Paul----------------------------------------------------------------------

How about the fat in avacado?



Randy



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 20:16:42 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         John Stankiewicz <radiant@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject:      Re: Garcinia cambogia



At 03:55 PM 8/31/96 +0100, you wrote:

>>At 08:42 AM 8/31/96 -0700, you wrote:

>>>This herb, from what we can find, is used to loose weight. It also

>>from flowing, or stimulate the nervous system. Good energy comes from the

>>Prana, or Chi (Ki, Qi) and from foods.  If you have knots in your circuitry,

>>so to speak (pranas, nadis, meridians, chakras, especially the spleen

>>chakra, etc.), then you won't have good energy.

>>

>>John.

>

>There is no such thing as a 'spleen chakra.'

>

>More of your patented gobbledegook. Now about these plants 'unblocking'

>your glands....

>

>Paul

>



Well your lack of knowledge certainly shows here.  In Western esotericism

this chakra is quite well known.  You must have studied just the Eastern

traditions, where they only show the chakras along the spinal line.  But

there are a few esoteric sources that show this chakra over the spleen.

Open up any RADIONICS text and you should be able to find a reference to it.

David Tanseley is one such practitioner that talks about it.



Paul, stop with the childish outbursts.  "patented gobbledegook"! Verify

something before you denounce it.  It may be a good idea.



John.

http://www.radiant-living.com (where we try to avoid premature cognitive

commitments or old paradigms and present new ones!)

The average person has about 65,000 thoughts a day.  What is disconcerting

is that more than 95% of the thoughts are the same ones as the person had

yesterday.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 19:35:02 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Randy Froeba <htcw@GNA.COM>

Organization: Herbal Treasures and Cedar Works

Subject:      Re: Fibromyalgia and CFS



Paul Iannone wrote:

>

> >Hi,

> > There was a discussion in Boston put on by the Massage Therapy Assoc.

> >not too long, ago that stated that the use of the following herbs would o

> >help people with fibromyalgia and CFS. The man that was quoted was Mitch

> >Coven, clinical herbalist, LMT, Pres of Vitality Works, Inc.The herb's

> >were Devil's Claw,St. John's Wort, Scullcap, Pulsatilla and Arnica in one

> >formula and Reishi Mushroom, Ashwagandha, Licorice Root and Kava Kava in

> >another. We did a little research and can see why most of these would

> >help but are having trouble with finding some of these herb's.

> >We have a local Massage Therapist looking for some of these herb's.

> >Has anyone seen this story in the Massage Therapy Journal or heard of

> >the man?

> >

> >Thanks,

> >Randy and Cathy Froeba

>

> So these people are pushing their product, big deal!



Who are "these people"?



>A dime a dozen, and shoddy, shoddy herbalism.

>The idea that a chronic illness like FM has a

> SINGLE diagnosis that can be treated without regard to the underlying

> pattern of illness presented by the individual sufferer is flatly

> ridiculous---and it is entirely likely, given the creeping onset of

>such illnesses, and thus their complex etiology, that formulas like the

>above will cause more harm rather than help. Such illnesses need

>treating by precisely-chosen formulations, frequent reassessments, and

>persistent lifestyle management!



This was presented as a something that would "HELP" not cure.

Most people want help before the year of the pig.



>

> Reishi mushroom is an herb with VERY LITTLE historical use.

>It is found in  NO traditional Chinese formulas, which is odd since it

>is commonly available in forests around the world (contrary to the

>mystification attempts of its proponent/entrepreneurs). It is a sour

>herb, and sour flavors are contraindicated in tendon illnesses. Kava

>kava is a great herb, but it is a plant that is endangered in many

>areas, and as well is a sedative. Sedatives reduce the flow of Qi,

>something that would be hard to argue for in a Qi-mechanism disorder

>like FM (pain syndromes by definition have improper flow of Qi).

>

> Arnica is a toxic herb, and a stomach irritant. St. Johnswort is an herb

> that can exacerbate Heat conditions, such as may well underlie FM.

>

> Pulsatilla is generally used fresh, and is quite vulnerable to degradation

> in a dried state. The assumption would be that these are alcohol

> tinctures...alcohol is contraindicated in Heat patterns as well.

>

> Finally: 'clinical herbalist.' What exactly is that, as opposed to an

> herbalist? Does that mean that the guy has a white coat in the closet? Wow,

> I am mightily impressed.

>

> Paul



Should a anti-rheumatic herb be used?

Should a herb be used to cleans and correct the polluted

condition of the blood?

Should a anti-inflammatory herb be used?

Should a pain relieveing herb be used?



What herbs should be used? Qi-Si-Fi or Mi?



Randy



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 20:33:54 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         John Stankiewicz <radiant@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds



At 04:09 PM 8/31/96 +0100, you wrote:

>>>Yeah, that's nice John, but this diet has never been proven in the real

>>>world, and is hogwash from a health standpoint, unless you succeed in

>>>eliminating all illness by whistling sacred mantras out your right nostril.

>>

>>Paul, I guess this has never been proven to you.  This diet has been proven

>>to work in many sanitoriums around the world and there is much material on

>>this matter.

>

>Oh, there is plenty of 'material' I'm sure. But 99% of the people who have

>ever lived have eaten a cooked diet. Why don't you explain that, if

>optimally raw diets are the best for you?

>



Optimally raw does not exclude cooked food by the way.  It just means there

is more raw than cooked.  There are

also degrees of raw, as in steamed, if still crisp.  A good meal would be

somewhere around 80% raw and 20% cooked and can even be higher on the raw

side, depending on availability of raw food.



>>Of course there is no specific diet, since the right

>>combination has to be found for each individual depending on many factors,

>>but the diet is maximally raw.  You're simply attacking this because of your

>>training in a particular system, and that's fine, but you should not attack

>>other systems as these have not been unproven.

>

>I am attacking it as unproven crap. The health benefits of spa diets are

>short lived. Yogic dietary practices are generally useless or harmful

>outside of yogic lifestyles.

>



You sound like an authority on the subject.  "unproven crap".  That could be

said of anything these days, and is frequently done, such as in your case.



>>>>Avoid constipating and mucus causing foods, which are usually the refined

>>>>foods (refined white flower and refined white sugar products), and highly

>>>>concentrated foods.

>>>

>>>Avoid highly concentrated food like fruit, right?

>>

>>Fruit is not considered a highly concentrated food.  Nuts, grains, seeds,

>>and meat fit that category.

>

>Fruit is indeed a highly concentrated food, a strong tendency to imbalance

>health.

>



Yes, according to your system.  My udnerstanding is that fruit is very

purifying and sattvic (and benign).  If there are any imbalances that has

more to do with the character makeup, the life strategy of the person, their

tendencies, both physical and psychic.  So the fruit would imabalance a

PECULIAR type (in our system), but that doesn't mean that a peculiar life

strategy can't be controlled and eventually that person would be able to get

onto a fruit diet without getting too airy and getting "out of the body", so

to speak.  It's just an excuse.  Some systems are just too yang.



>>What did people eat before cooking was invented???  Adam and Eve didn't have

>>a hibachi, did they?  I also don't recall what I was doing 50,000 years ago,

>>you must.

>

>We are fairly clear on the diets of early man. Certainly the cooking of

>food predates the agricultural revolution by many thousands of years.

>

yes, but by 50,000? give me a break.  And they had plenty of raw (not

overcooked) food in their diets, unlike today.

They also didn't have all of this processed crap (a term you like).



>>By the way, how do you know what the state of health of the average man was

>>a few thousand years ago?

>

>Moot.



Right, you don't.



>

>>>>Fasting would be one of the best things you could do.

>>>

>>>Fasting is the WORST approach to preventing colds, though it may help treat

>>>colds, given their congestive nature.

>>

>>Eliminating any accumulation of mucus is the WORST approach?  Illogical.

>

>There is no accumulation of mucus in people who have a healthy digestion,

>such as is provided by a proper cooked food diet. The health food diets



That's just pure bull.  Properly cooked food also contains few enzymes, the

fiber is mush.

How do you figure that a person would have proper digestion on a cooked diet??

If there are no enzymes, or few, then that food sits in the pre-digestion

portion of the stomach and does what?

Nothing.  The body does not produce enzymes at that point according to

current research.  People once thought and theorized that we didn't have a

food-enzyme stomach and no predigestion was taking place.  Well, we know better.



>developed in Europe in the last century are a counter to high-fat, high

>alcohol diets in sedentary high-stress populations. A nursery school

>teacher is not sedentary, that's for sure. And I'm sure they may wish to

>get drunk from time to time, but they certainly don't drink like Europeans

>once did (or Americans for that matter).

>

>>>>Once a year do a 10 day fast.

>>>

>>>Once a year shoot yourself in the leg. The antibiotics the doctor gives you

>>>will clear away any accumulating bacteria.

>>>

>>

>>Paul, the above outburst, and this one >eliminating all illness by whistling

>>sacred mantras out your right nostril.<

>>is rather childish.  This kind of nastiness is not only uncalled for but

>>very unprofessional.

>

>Unprofessional? Spouting nonsense on a regular basis is unprofessional. I

>would consider my comments humorous.

>

Your comments don't come across as humorous at all.   If anyone reads your

comments without seeing your face, your expressions, then they don't see

that you're trying to be humorous.  You're downright nasty and convinced of

your own expertise and being outright righteous about it.  And there aren't

enough people standing up and challenging you on it.  If they do they get

beaten down.  Sorry, enough of that.



>>I hope you don't treat your clients this way.  And

>>this is also a child's way of attemtping to dominate a conference such as

>>this one.  Grow up and be more civil and tolerant.  Express your opinions,

>>tolerate the beliefs of thers, and be nice.  "It's easier to catch flies

>>with honey than with vinegar".

>

>Tolerance of nonsense is not my way.



Nonsense according to your own definition and your own strict criteria.



>

>>>>Other people here can recommend various herbs,

>>>>such as Echinacea, but we have to know more about you and your body type to

>>>>know which herbs would be more effective for you.

>>>

>>>'We'? You PERSONALLY have acknowledged that you have NO knowledge in this

>>>field, so quit pretending.

>>

>>I do have knowledge in the field and try not to keep my blinders on.

>>Your cup is too full Paul.  No more can be added.

>

>How's your vitamin C transmutation experiment going, John?

>



Well, I'm taking it.  I personally don't like transmuting my vitamin C, I

need that one to handle the attacks here.  Hmmm, let's see, what other

substance do I have an abundance of that I could transmute?  Maybe a few

more fat cells than I need?  Gee, let's try that!  Where's that darn

Garcinia Cambogia???  Hey by the way, you mentioned that this stuff could

lead to bowel problems?  What type?  Could you elaborate?  Thanks.



>Paul



John.



http://www.radiant-living.com (where we try to avoid premature cognitive

commitments or old paradigms and present new ones!)

The average person has about 65,000 thoughts a day.  What is disconcerting

is that more than 95% of the thoughts are the same ones as the person had

yesterday.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 19:48:08 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Randy Froeba <htcw@GNA.COM>

Organization: Herbal Treasures and Cedar Works

Subject:      Re: Garcinia cambogia



Paul Iannone wrote:

>

> >At 08:42 AM 8/31/96 -0700, you wrote:

> >>This herb, from what we can find, is used to loose weight. It also

> >>helps to increase the bodies metabolism of fat in green foods. Can this

> >>reaction be translated into giving the person more energy?

> >>

> >>Thank's,

> >>Randy and Cathy Froeba

> >>

> >

> >I suppose, but doesn't Garcinia Cambogia also block some fat receptors?

> >Isn't that how they hype it?  I'm not sure about the efficacy of that.

> >Certainly liberating energy from fat cells would give you energy, and

> >toxins.  But I don't think any herb on the planet will give you a lot of

> >energy. Those that do either balance the glands so you don't block energy

> >from flowing, or stimulate the nervous system. Good energy comes from the

> >Prana, or Chi (Ki, Qi) and from foods.  If you have knots in your circuitry,

> >so to speak (pranas, nadis, meridians, chakras, especially the spleen

> >chakra, etc.), then you won't have good energy.

> >

> >John.



John,

Thanks for the response.



Randy



>

> There is no such thing as a 'spleen chakra.'

>

> More of your patented gobbledegook. Now about these plants 'unblocking'

> your glands....

>

> Paul



Thanks for some of your standard gobbledegook.



Randy



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 19:49:45 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Randy Froeba <htcw@GNA.COM>

Organization: Herbal Treasures and Cedar Works

Subject:      Re: Natural stimulant



Paul Iannone wrote:

>

> >Can anyone recommend a natural stimulant which does no harm to the body

> >(i.e., an alternative to caffeine)?

>

> Why yes. Sufficient sleep, mild daily exercise, and regular meals.

>

> Paul



You left out no "fruit"!



Randy



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:39:22 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Henry & Dawn Krans <hdkrans@NETOPIA.ON.CA>

Subject:      Re: Garcinia cambogia



No. No, Paul, I'm not dehydrated. How in the world would you think you can

diagnose this from what I said??? #1..I drink anywhere from 64 - 80 ounces

of water per day..because I drink Kombucha Tea. You need to drink lots of

water when you drink that. I did about a month back get dehydrated for about

a week, because I wasn't drinking enough water. So, I am aware of the signs.

#2..Without getting into too much detail, I have a small/weak-ish bladder

and am very aware of that as well. I have not urinated anymore or less since

I started taking Garcinia Cambogia. I did not lose any weight to speak of

until Monday, when I started taking these pills. I can only report my

personal experience, correct??? Now, while you may be correct that I may not

have lost 5 pounds of fat this week, I lost five pounds of something...and

it wasn't urine. I am not dehydrated, but thanks for your expected tone of

reply.



Love and Life,

Dawn





At 11:18 AM 31/08/96 +0100, you wrote:

>>Hello..I just wanted to drop you aline about this stuff. Although, it is not

>>an herb...it is the rind off of a citrus fruit, if I understand it

>>right...it does seem to help you lose weight. I bought a box last week that

>>also comes with GTF Chromiumand started taking the pills on Monday. I have

>>lost 5 pounds...since this Monday!!!!!!!

>

>You are DEHYDRATED. It is physiologically impossible to lose 5 lbs. of fat

>in one week, unless you are climbing Mt. Everest.

>

>Paul

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:39:24 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Henry & Dawn Krans <hdkrans@NETOPIA.ON.CA>

Subject:      Re: Garcinia cambogia



><hdkrans@NETOPIA.ON.CA> wrote:

>

> I have

>>lost 5 pounds...since this Monday!!!!!!! I haven't changed my diet and even

>>binged as an experiment. I am totally flabbergasted, to say the least..also,

>>hopeful for the first time in years.

>

>And you don't even think that losing that much weight with just some pills

might

>be dangerous to you? For how long are you planning to take this stuff, and what

>will you do when you stop, with your intestinal tract all messed up?

>

>.... oh well. And another one bites (and another one bites) and another one

>bites the dust...

>

>Henriette





You know, I really don't get this list at all...Is this your strange way of

expressing genuine concern for another human being??? If so..shame on

you..truly.  You are making some sweeping guess, first of all....unless you

are extremely knowledgable about this product..which, it seems you aren't.

Neither am I , for that matter, but I am learning, like everyone else out

there..open to suggestions...etc. Do you know that it will mess up by

intestinal tract??? If so, why not explain it to me..instead of sounding

like some kind of self-rightous..pompous...so and so???



All of the people who I have met in the past who were "holistically" or

"naturally" inclined were such kind, loving, caring people...A very big

reason why I have been changing my lifestyle and that of my childrens to

include more of these loving sorts in it. The Waldorf parents, for

instance....there is such love there...But, I digress...So many people on

this list seem just to be chomping at the bit like mad coyotes....(perhaps

it is even unkind to bring animals into this)..just ready to tear a chunk

from one another. Not everyone, mind you...but, far more then I ever would

have expected.



I'm not pretending to know alot about karma, and auras and the like, but, I

highly doubt that all this anger, hostility and aggression can be good for

anyone. There has to be a better way to get your point across without such

negativity.



If you are truly concerned about this or any other product for that matter,

why not offer advice...facts..suggestions??? Anything except sarcasm and

pettiness.



We are all this Earth to learn..and that goes for this list as well.  None

(or most ) of us wouldn't be on this list if we knew everything, right???

There would be no need for it. There are always going to be the difficult

people, but, most of us, I would think, are here for the same reason...to be

healthy..mind, body and soul. I don't think this can be possible with the

way some people approach others.



If just one person reads this and it makes sense, then I think it is worth it.



Thanks for reading this long diatribe, but, I felt it needed to be said. I'm

very sorry to those of you who didn't...but, if you are one of those, then

maybe you should read it again.



Love and Life,

Dawn



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:34:34 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Garcinia cambogia

In-Reply-To:  <3228ED64.3C02@gna.com>



>Paul Iannone wrote:

>>

>> >This herb, from what we can find, is used to loose weight. It also

>> >helps to increase the bodies metabolism of fat in green foods. Can this

>> >reaction be translated into giving the person more energy?

>> >

>> >Thank's,

>> >Randy and Cathy Froeba

>>

>> Well, if by 'green food' you mean green angel food cake, maybe so. 'Greens'

>> have next to no fat to begin with.

>>

>> Paul----------------------------------------------------------------------

>How about the fat in avacado?

>

>Randy



Avocados are a very fatty fruit, indeed. No one I've ever met refers to

avocado as greens, on the other hand.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:46:24 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Garcinia cambogia

In-Reply-To:  <199609010016.UAA25059@mail.inforamp.net>



>>There is no such thing as a 'spleen chakra.'

>>

>>More of your patented gobbledegook. Now about these plants 'unblocking'

>>your glands....

>>

>>Paul

>>

>

>Well your lack of knowledge certainly shows here.  In Western esotericism

>this chakra is quite well known.  You must have studied just the Eastern

>traditions, where they only show the chakras along the spinal line.  But

>there are a few esoteric sources that show this chakra over the spleen.



The term chakra is East-Indian. There are no non-spinal chakras. You, or

the text you are taking your unsubstantiated health faddist ideas from this

week, are misusing the term.



>Open up any RADIONICS text and you should be able to find a reference to it.

>David Tanseley is one such practitioner that talks about it.



WHY would I open a radionics text? That is the most unsubstantiated health

claim I can think of.



>Paul, stop with the childish outbursts.  "patented gobbledegook"! Verify

>something before you denounce it.  It may be a good idea.

>

>John.



John, you are a true innocent.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:54:30 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Fibromyalgia and CFS

In-Reply-To:  <3228F656.6303@gna.com>



>Paul Iannone wrote:

>>

>> >Hi,

>> > There was a discussion in Boston put on by the Massage Therapy Assoc.

>> >not too long, ago that stated that the use of the following herbs would o

>> >help people with fibromyalgia and CFS. The man that was quoted was Mitch

>> >Coven, clinical herbalist, LMT, Pres of Vitality Works, Inc.The herb's

>> >were Devil's Claw,St. John's Wort, Scullcap, Pulsatilla and Arnica in one

>> >formula and Reishi Mushroom, Ashwagandha, Licorice Root and Kava Kava in

>> >another. We did a little research and can see why most of these would

>> >help but are having trouble with finding some of these herb's.

>> >We have a local Massage Therapist looking for some of these herb's.

>> >Has anyone seen this story in the Massage Therapy Journal or heard of

>> >the man?

>> >

>> >Thanks,

>> >Randy and Cathy Froeba

>>

>> So these people are pushing their product, big deal!

>

>Who are "these people"?



Vitality Works, I presume.



>>A dime a dozen, and shoddy, shoddy herbalism.

>>The idea that a chronic illness like FM has a

>> SINGLE diagnosis that can be treated without regard to the underlying

>> pattern of illness presented by the individual sufferer is flatly

>> ridiculous---and it is entirely likely, given the creeping onset of

>>such illnesses, and thus their complex etiology, that formulas like the

>>above will cause more harm rather than help. Such illnesses need

>>treating by precisely-chosen formulations, frequent reassessments, and

>>persistent lifestyle management!

>

>This was presented as a something that would "HELP" not cure.

>Most people want help before the year of the pig.



Then they should seek out someone who stands a chance of healing them, and

not attempt to rely on some misguided attempt to throw herbs at them

willy-nilly.



These formulas, as I have explained, are not reliable and are poorly

conceived [Reishi, for instance, is used primarily for lung diseases, but

it is herb-of-the-month for entrepreneurs, so they throw it in anywhere

they please].



Attempting to treat a chronic illness of creeping onset that has many, many

underlying patterns with a single approach is like trying to feed birdseed

to cats, dogs, and horses.



>Should a anti-rheumatic herb be used?

>Should a herb be used to cleans and correct the polluted

>condition of the blood?

>Should a anti-inflammatory herb be used?

>Should a pain relieveing herb be used?



A ***DIAGNOSIS*** SHOULD BE USED.



>What herbs should be used? Qi-Si-Fi or Mi?

>

>Randy



I have no idea what those syllables refer to.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:58:07 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds

In-Reply-To:  <199609010033.UAA25254@mail.inforamp.net>



>That's just pure bull.  Properly cooked food also contains few enzymes, the

>fiber is mush.



Physiological nonsense. 'Proper' cooking doesn't affect fiber at all, other

than to make it pass more easily, by softening its walls.



I'm filtering all your posts from now on, since countering all the idiocy

in the world is beyond me. I presume that most readers in this list can

tell that you are several nuts short on surviving the winter.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 19:03:08 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Natural stimulant

In-Reply-To:  <3228F9C9.7240@gna.com>



>Paul Iannone wrote:

>>

>> >Can anyone recommend a natural stimulant which does no harm to the body

>> >(i.e., an alternative to caffeine)?

>>

>> Why yes. Sufficient sleep, mild daily exercise, and regular meals.

>>

>> Paul

>

>You left out no "fruit"!

>

>Randy



Well, no, this is not actually a comment on proper diet, but on proper

lifestyle.



But for your efforts to flame bait me, I've put you in my filter as well. I

presume that was your intention.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 19:13:08 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Garcinia cambogia

In-Reply-To:  <19960901023920795.AAA232@DEFAULT.netopia.net>



>No. No, Paul, I'm not dehydrated. How in the world would you think you can

>diagnose this from what I said???



It is not a 'diagnosis,' it is an expectation founded on physiological

facts that are well-known.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 19:21:10 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Garcinia cambogia

In-Reply-To:  <19960901023920795.AAB232@DEFAULT.netopia.net>



>> I have lost 5 pounds...since this Monday!!!!!!!



>>And you don't even think that losing that much weight with just some pills

>might be dangerous to you?



>You know, I really don't get this list at all...



>We are all this Earth to learn..and that goes for this list as well.



>Dawn



This is a list about the MEDICINAL use of herbs. It is not the place for

random reports of unexplained changes in health. Yes, you rub a potato on

your elbow and your wart goes away, but that is not the sort of information

that should be posted here! If you want the kind of folk consumer level

interaction, take it to USENET, or one of the other herb lists.



Rapid weight loss is fundamentally unhealthy. The people on this list who

know something about healing (as opposed to the hordes who think that

attitude is more important than factuality) recognize immediately that IF

gambogia made you lose 5 lbs. of actual tissue weight in five days, then it

is doing you grave harm.



Beyond that, this is an utterly irrational approach to herb study. There

are many, many factors in a week's weight variation. Give us a report,

complete with your disclaimer that you don't sell the stuff, in a month to

six weeks, averaging your weight loss over that period of time. And then do

the research to find out why gambogia is doing this to you. THEN you might

have a post that passes muster.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 19:37:03 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      The mechanism of Garcinia cambogia's action

In-Reply-To:  <19960901023920795.AAB232@DEFAULT.netopia.net>



The mechanism of Garcinia cambogia's action is yet unknown in its entirety.

It is known that there is a chemical in the plant, (-)hydroxycitrate, which

reduces fat synthesis by inhibiting ATP-citrate lyase, an liver enzyme that

is involved in the liver's conversion of sugars to fats. By inhibiting this

enzyme, this chemical reduces formation of coenzyme A, a fundamental

biochemical involved in carbohydrate and fat metabolism in all cells. The

result is that more sugars are  metabolized, and less triglycerides (and

LDL) produced. **The long-term results of this sort of tinkering is

UNKNOWN.**



Brindall berry also reduces appetite AND THEREBY food consumption. As such,

it can produce a fasting state, with exactly the same downside of dieting

already fairly well-known. HOW it does this is unknown, but it points to

possible stimulant aspects of the herb.



One other way to lose weight is to eat less, and therefore have less stool

in your intestine. This is entirely a transient effect of the first few

days of fasting. A combination of this, increased sweating due to the

plant's stimulant effect, and some reduction in fat loading is the probable

explanation of this weight loss, assuming that the hundreds of potential

unspoken factors are null.



Paul



(thanks to Dallas Clouatre, PhD for the biochemical clarification, derived

in part from his book Anti-Fat Nutrients. Dr. Clouatre was at one point

employed by Country Life vitamins, and is a proponent of this sort of

herbal therapy).



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 00:32:53 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Kim P Ratcliff <kimrcliff@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: rose hips



Hi- Sorry I've taken so long to reply......yes,cut the ends off and the

seeds out and then put them on a cookie sheet in the freezer. Then after

they're frozen you can just stick them in a freezer bag. They'll keep in

the freezer until the next harvest.  I've enjoyed your posts!  Kim



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 00:54:28 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Nina Kuper <AboveView@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kombucha Tea - Dawn



In a message dated 96-08-31 21:48:37 EDT, you write:



>I drink anywhere from 64 - 80 ounces

>of water per day..because I drink Kombucha Tea. You need to drink lots of

>water when you drink that. I did about a month back get dehydrated for about

>a week, because I wasn't drinking enough water. So, I am aware of the signs.



Dawn:



Does Kombucha Tea act as a diuretic?



Thank you,



Nina



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 02:17:06 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Terry King <terryk@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Oregon Grape



Joan,



I would seriously doubt it.  It grows very well in my area and others.  I

would say that 20% of my 43 acres has a good mixed cover that is mostly

Oregon Grape.



It is also cultivated in two forms and in sold at many nurseries.



May I ask what prompts this question?



Terry

terryk@juno.com

zone 4 northern eastern Washington





On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 16:29:46 -0700 Joan <alan_grout@SUNSHINE.NET> writes:

>Is Oregon Grape endangered?

>Thanks

>Joan

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 02:17:06 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Terry King <terryk@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds



Paul,



ROTFL!



On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:58:07 +0100 Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM> writes:

>>That's just pure bull.  Properly cooked food also contains few

>enzymes, the

>>fiber is mush.

>

>Physiological nonsense. 'Proper' cooking doesn't affect fiber at all,

>other

>than to make it pass more easily, by softening its walls.

>

>I'm filtering all your posts from now on, since countering all the

>idiocy

>in the world is beyond me. I presume that most readers in this list

>can

>tell that you are several nuts short on surviving the winter.



Terry

terryk@juno.com

zone 4 northern eastern Washington



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 00:31:26 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Oregon Grape

In-Reply-To:  <19960831.230952.4655.3.terryk@juno.com>



>Joan,

>

>I would seriously doubt it.  It grows very well in my area and others.  I

>would say that 20% of my 43 acres has a good mixed cover that is mostly

>Oregon Grape.

>

>It is also cultivated in two forms and in sold at many nurseries.

>

>May I ask what prompts this question?

>

>Terry

>terryk@juno.com

>zone 4 northern eastern Washington

>

>

>On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 16:29:46 -0700 Joan <alan_grout@SUNSHINE.NET> writes:

>>Is Oregon Grape endangered?

>>Thanks

>>Joan

>>



If I recall correctly, Michael Moore was saying it is locally endangered in

some areas.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:13:33 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         jonathan treasure <jonno@TELEPORT.COM>

Subject:      Re: Fibromyalgia and CFS



>

>>Hi,

>> There was a discussion in Boston put on by the Massage Therapy Assoc.

>>not too long, ago that stated that the use of the following herbs would o

>>help people with fibromyalgia and CFS. The man that was quoted was Mitch

>>Coven, clinical herbalist, LMT, Pres of Vitality Works, Inc.The herb's

>>were Devil's Claw,St. John's Wort, Scullcap, Pulsatilla and Arnica in one

>>formula and Reishi Mushroom, Ashwagandha, Licorice Root and Kava Kava in

>>another. We did a little research and can see why most of these would

>>help but are having trouble with finding some of these herb's.

>>We have a local Massage Therapist looking for some of these herb's.

>>Has anyone seen this story in the Massage Therapy Journal or heard of

>>the man?

>>

>>Thanks,

>>Randy and Cathy Froeba

>

>So these people are pushing their product, big deal! A dime a dozen, and

>shoddy, shoddy herbalism. The idea that a chronic illness like FM has a

>SINGLE diagnosis that can be treated without regard to the underlying

>pattern of illness presented by the individual sufferer is flatly

>ridiculous---and it is entirely likely, given the creeping onset of such

>illnesses, and thus their complex etiology, that formulas like the above

>will cause more harm rather than help. Such illnesses need treating by

>precisely-chosen formulations, frequent reassessments, and persistent

>lifestyle management!

>

>Reishi mushroom is an herb with VERY LITTLE historical use. It is found in

>NO traditional Chinese formulas, which is odd since it is commonly

>available in forests around the world (contrary to the mystification

>attempts of its proponent/entrepreneurs). It is a sour herb, and sour

>flavors are contraindicated in tendon illnesses. Kava kava is a great herb,

>but it is a plant that is endangered in many areas, and as well is a

>sedative. Sedatives reduce the flow of Qi, something that would be hard to

>argue for in a Qi-mechanism disorder like FM (pain syndromes by definition

>have improper flow of Qi).

>

>Arnica is a toxic herb, and a stomach irritant. St. Johnswort is an herb

>that can exacerbate Heat conditions, such as may well underlie FM.

>

>Pulsatilla is generally used fresh, and is quite vulnerable to degradation

>in a dried state. The assumption would be that these are alcohol

>tinctures...alcohol is contraindicated in Heat patterns as well.

>

>Finally: 'clinical herbalist.' What exactly is that, as opposed to an

>herbalist? Does that mean that the guy has a white coat in the closet? Wow,

>I am mightily impressed.

>

>Paul



HI Paul,



Well, while I can't really disagree with your reflex reactions and I know

you write from good motive..of course  fibromyalgia/CFS etc  is  complex

and certainly needs detailed case work up and individual treatment, nor

would most of the herbs mentioned be especially the first to come to my

mind but I would like to say that Mitch  of Vitality Works is an

experienced herbalist, trained a long time ago with Michael Moore among

others,  and his outfit makes good reliable tinctures especially of S

Western plants from around where he is located,  and includes their list

some useful things otherwise hard to come by.  Definitely  NOT a big - time

herb capitalist. Probably, since the original poster was not at the

conference, and since it was a conference of bodyworkers, I would argue for

giving Mitch the benefit of the doubt..... possibly a case of Chinese

whispers....oh and  just because Reishi is not a traditional chinese

formula herb does not necessarily detract from its clinically proven immune

modulating functions.  It is an interesting plant with an apparently wide

range of applications.....I have used it a fair bit recently - but  am

dubious whether a small amount in a mixed tincture would be of any benefit

at all though.



It seems to me that many  herbalists ( western at any rate ) in this

country find it hard to make a living by practising alone, after all its

illegal for a start, so they teach, make medicines and sell'em, do public

talks, write articles etc etc  It does not always boil down to rampant

product pushing or self promotion.....although of course there is plenty of

that too as we have discussed recently ....but as often as not they are

trying to scratch a living in a hostile environment....





Oh yes, and <clinical herbalists> usually do have a white coat in the

closet ...mines been there for years



best regards



jonathan



 jonathan treasure <jonno@teleport.com>

_______________________________________________

"Organ transplants are best left to the professionals" - Bart Simpson



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 06:45:39 +0000

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <lsugar@bigwave.ca>

From:         LES <lsugar@BIGWAVE.CA>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds



  Re: Echinacea

                         I can tell you only my experience which is

that echinacea has not done anything for me. Period.   It may be a

wonder herb but it hasn't worked for me.

LES



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 19:30:40 +0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Aggie <emeerwald@ALPHA1.CURTIN.EDU.AU>

Subject:      Re: Kombucha Tea - Dawn



Hi



thisis a silly question but I'll ask it anyway. What signs do you notice

when you are about to be dehydrated???





Aggie







At 00:54 1/09/96 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 96-08-31 21:48:37 EDT, you write:

>

>>I drink anywhere from 64 - 80 ounces

>>of water per day..because I drink Kombucha Tea. You need to drink lots of

>>water when you drink that. I did about a month back get dehydrated for about

>>a week, because I wasn't drinking enough water. So, I am aware of the signs.

>

>Dawn:

>

>Does Kombucha Tea act as a diuretic?

>

>Thank you,

>

>Nina

>

The Lord bless you and keep you;

the Lord make His face shine upon you

and be gracious to you;

the lord turn his face towards you

and give you peace.

- Numbers 6:24-26 -



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 09:40:41 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Randy Froeba (by way of Warren Kingsley <wk8982@pacbell.net>)"

              <htcw@GNA.COM>

Subject:      Re: Fibromyalgia and CFS



Michael J. User wrote:

>

> Hi, I am a massage therapist and have read the article. I don't know where

> you can get any of the herbs. Sorry.

> Michael

Jacobus-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Michael,

What do you think of the article? Do you ,as a massage theraptist,

agree or disagree?



Randy and Cathy Froeba



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 10:19:48 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Joan <alan_grout@SUNSHINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Oregon Grape



At 02:17 AM 9/1/96 EDT, you wrote:

>Joan,

>

>I would seriously doubt it.  It grows very well in my area and others.  I

>would say that 20% of my 43 acres has a good mixed cover that is mostly

>Oregon Grape.

>

>It is also cultivated in two forms and in sold at many nurseries.

>

>May I ask what prompts this question?

>

>Terry



you really want me to tell 500 or so holy herb people about my vicious

tendencies?? I don't think so!



ah, what the hey...

guilt.

There has been a pile of it in my face all summer and I was about to rip it

out by it's little roots but a little voice from this herb list said, "don't

you remember something about it possibly being endangered.!"

Rather than rip out something sacred, I thought I'd check it out.

End of story--I settled for trimming rather than risk mucking up my little

ecosystem and we are living together amicably.

Joan



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 10:26:13 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Joan <alan_grout@SUNSHINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Oregon Grape



<snip>

>Oregon Grape.

>

>It is also cultivated in two forms and in sold at many nurseries.

>

>May I ask what prompts this question?

>

>Terry



you really want me to tell 500 or so holy herb people about my vicious

tendencies?? I don't think so!



ah, what the hey...

guilt.

There has been a pile of it in my face all summer and I was about to rip it

out by it's little roots but a vague voice from this herb list said, "don't

you remember something about it possibly being endangered!"

Rather than rip out something sacred, I thought I'd check it out.

End of story--I settled for trimming rather than risk mucking up my little

ecosystem and we are living together amicably.

Joan



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:24:06 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Karen Fite@aol.com" <KarenFite@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds



John, as a student of Naturopathy, I understand where you are coming from.

 After much nutritional experimentation over the years, I have personally

found a diet high in raw veggies & fruits (or live foods) to totally

transform my immune system in a positively boosting way.



Karen Fite

Tulsa, OK



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:24:23 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Karen Fite@aol.com" <KarenFite@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Dawn's Long Diatribe



Dawn, what you said was well put and I totally agree.  I personally find the

differing philosophies fascinating and it's too bad that we can't just

discuss them calmly instead of there being such a competetive vulture

approach.



Karen Fite

Tulsa, OK



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:24:23 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Karen Fite@aol.com" <KarenFite@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Spleen Chakra



I just had training in chakra balancing a few months ago.  There is a spleen

chakra - it's just not one of the 7 major chakras.  I guess you could call it

a minor chakra like the mid chest, elbow, knee, hand, and foot chakras.  Our

training was based on Barbara Brennan's books (Hands of Light & Light

Emerging) and Brugh Joy's book (Joy's Way), to name just a few of the sources

of information.



Karen Fite

Tulsa, OK



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:12:27 +0200

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Daniel Wong <Daniel.Wong@PING.BE>

Subject:      Re: Fibromyalgia and CFS



 > >> >help people with fibromyalgia and CFS. The man that was quoted was

Mitch

> >> >Coven, clinical herbalist, LMT, Pres of Vitality Works, Inc.The

herb's

> >> >were Devil's Claw,[snip] > >Who are "these people"?



 This looks like a nom de plume. Turn the "M" of that name upside-down and

it says "witch coven"

har har har...are you guys putting me on?

B. Wong



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 15:25:12 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds

In-Reply-To:  <960901142405_513978951@emout08.mail.aol.com>



>John, as a student of Naturopathy, I understand where you are coming from.

> After much nutritional experimentation over the years, I have personally

>found a diet high in raw veggies & fruits (or live foods) to totally

>transform my immune system in a positively boosting way.

>

>Karen Fite

>Tulsa, OK



What does 'transform your immune system' mean? People in actual good health

do not get colds with any frequency at all, maybe at most one a year. If

you were getting them more frequently, then the pattern of your health was

imbalanced to begin with, and the adjustment offered by a diet high in raw

veggies & fruits cannot be offered as a lifestyle for others...NOR can its

ultimate effects be judged outside of determining what flaws drove your

previous pattern of illness getting.



As for 'understanding where John is coming from'...that would take a real

leap of faith.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 15:29:01 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Spleen Chakra

In-Reply-To:  <960901142422_513979056@emout12.mail.aol.com>



>I just had training in chakra balancing a few months ago.  There is a spleen

>chakra - it's just not one of the 7 major chakras.  I guess you could call it

>a minor chakra like the mid chest, elbow, knee, hand, and foot chakras.  Our

>training was based on Barbara Brennan's books (Hands of Light & Light

>Emerging) and Brugh Joy's book (Joy's Way), to name just a few of the sources

>of information.

>

>Karen Fite

>Tulsa, OK



I'll state this again. You can certainly claim the existence of fairies

dancing over your every internal organ, but the TERM chakra is derived from

East-Indian yogic observations which DO NOT include any such thing. If the

New Agers want to manipulate everything into a synthesis that apparently

includes all previous observations from 'all the traditions' then that is a

LYING approach that does not produce knowledge, but rather obscures it.



Call them 'vortexes' or something. The term chakra is specific to its

tradition. There are CERTAINLY no chakras in Chinese physiology.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 19:22:55 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Nina Kuper <AboveView@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Arthritis



In a message dated 96-08-31 14:19:09 EDT, you write:



>Marcia,

>

>I would very much appreciate receiving a  free copy of your monthly

>featuring "Bilberrry".



Thank you,



Nina Kuper

9260 North Thrush Lane

Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53217



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 19:36:05 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Michael J. User" <MjjLMT@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Fibromyalgia and CFS



I can't say that I would agree to one approach to combat these syndromes.

 CFS and FM are both chronic and seem to have diverse causitive factors.

 Lifestyle choices seem to greatly influence how a person is able to cope

with having a chronic illness.  Massage and others holistic forms of health

are great adjunctive methods, but really it comes down to the individual

making some self-care decisions.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:04:30 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Fibromyalgia and CFS

In-Reply-To:  <199609010509.WAA18251@desiree.teleport.com>



>>

>>>Hi,

>>> There was a discussion in Boston put on by the Massage Therapy Assoc.

>>>not too long, ago that stated that the use of the following herbs would o

>>>help people with fibromyalgia and CFS. The man that was quoted was Mitch

>>>Coven, clinical herbalist, LMT, Pres of Vitality Works, Inc.The herb's

>>>were



>>So these people are pushing their product, big deal!

>Well, while I can't really disagree with your reflex reactions and I know

>you write from good motive..of course  fibromyalgia/CFS etc  is  complex

>and certainly needs detailed case work up and individual treatment, nor

>would most of the herbs mentioned be especially the first to come to my

>mind



Nor mine. This kind of approach WEAKENS herbalism as a field, since people

do not have endless resources or endless patience with failure or

exacerbation (nor should they).



>but I would like to say that Mitch  of Vitality Works is an

>experienced herbalist, trained a long time ago with Michael Moore among

>others,  and his outfit makes good reliable tinctures especially of S

>Western plants from around where he is located,  and includes their list

>some useful things otherwise hard to come by.  Definitely  NOT a big - time

>herb capitalist.



Well, perhaps the flaw in in the recollection of the original poster. If

they discussed WHY these herbs were recommended and for WHOM (not just

'FM'), then there might be a basis for this kind of educational approach.

If they sell a tincture called 'FM Cleanse' or something, then shame on

them.



>Probably, since the original poster was not at the

>conference, and since it was a conference of bodyworkers, I would argue for

>giving Mitch the benefit of the doubt..... possibly a case of Chinese

>whispers.



OK.



>...oh and  just because Reishi is not a traditional chinese

>formula herb does not necessarily detract from its clinically proven immune

>modulating functions.



Right-o, but it is suspiciously absent from the formularies of this old

system that had plenty of access to it. AND, its sour nature is still

contraindicated.



>It is an interesting plant with an apparently wide

>range of applications.....I have used it a fair bit recently - but  am

>dubious whether a small amount in a mixed tincture would be of any benefit

>at all though.



It also has a mind-altering effect in some users which might be very

dangerous if taken before driving.



>It seems to me that many  herbalists ( western at any rate ) in this

>country find it hard to make a living by practising alone, after all its

>illegal for a start, so they teach, make medicines and sell'em, do public

>talks, write articles etc etc  It does not always boil down to rampant

>product pushing or self promotion.....although of course there is plenty of

>that too as we have discussed recently ....but as often as not they are

>trying to scratch a living in a hostile environment....



This kind of entrepreneurial approach to herbalism floats the individual's

boat on the good will produced by healers who bear the relative poverty of

maintaining a real practice. And it degrades herbalism as a whole.



>Oh yes, and <clinical herbalists> usually do have a white coat in the

>closet ...mines been there for years



Leave it there. Damn purists!



>best regards

>

>jonathan



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:06:14 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds

In-Reply-To:  <HERB%96090113473570@VM.EGE.EDU.TR>



>  Re: Echinacea

>                         I can tell you only my experience which is

>that echinacea has not done anything for me. Period.   It may be a

>wonder herb but it hasn't worked for me.

>LES



What were you expecting this poor plant to DO for you?



Another casualty of herb marketing.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:23:23 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Kelly Briley <olive@SIRIUS.COM>

Subject:      other listserves



Does anyone know of any other herb ListServes in addition to this one?



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 00:20:20 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kombucha Tea - Dawn

In-Reply-To:  <199609011130.TAA24017@info.curtin.edu.au>



>Hi

>

>thisis a silly question but I'll ask it anyway. What signs do you notice

>when you are about to be dehydrated???

>

>

>Aggie



If you think you MAY be dehydrated, you probably are.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 01:06:27 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ginseng

In-Reply-To:  <32195F9D.3890@voyager.net>



>> Siberian ginseng is Eleutherococcus senticosus, not at all the same genus,

>> and should be considered separately.



>-what are the principle uses for siberian ginseng that are markedly

>different from the panax genseng. is this an apple to orange thang or

>more of a macintosh to granny smith issue?



Eleutherococcus has many of the same 'adaptogenic' effects, but does not

have the same burst of concentrated 'earth' energy that ginseng has. It is

not included in very many traditional formulas, so I have little occasion

for its use. It is more drying than ginseng.



>> There are differences between steamed (red) and unsteamed (white), and

>>certainly between wild, semi-wild, and cultivated, and relative ages of

>>the root (cultivated and semi-cultivated...wild, when available [rarely]

>>is always mature root).



>-could you please list a few of the differences between these varieties.

>potency and the appropriatness for long term use for general health are

>a couple of issues that come to mind. others will be generated, as

>usual, by your generous response.



Essentially, red (steamed, possibly sometimes in the steam of herbal

decoctions) is considered Hotter, and is used to enhance Yang aspects of

physiology, while white is considered mildly Warm, and used for all other

purposes.



Wild finds 'use' for deep meditative or spirit enhancement. It has long

been considered as much spirit as plant.



>>I recommend the paste because it is of good quality, while the powders and

>>capsules are VERY unreliable.

>

>-which begs the question of brand reliability if such exists.



One company, East Earth Herbs, with whom I used to have some dealings,

specifically states the age and type of root in its products (though

regrettably not the weight or percentage). This nears the proper approach

for commercial products. In the absence of this sort of statement on a

product, you cannot assume anything about its quality. Most companies don't

make such notifications, so I don't recommend any brands.



The companies I use are professional, and use professional grades of herbs.

Such grades are reliable for any particular company, so this issue does not

arise in my practice. More at issue is that certain companies make use of

herb substitutes for the costlier ginseng, and this practice makes those

particular formulas, at least, unacceptable for my use. Dang shen, the

usual substitute (Codonopsis), is Damper and does not have the Abdominal Qi

(Earth Qi) Boosting effects. What is more at issue is that these

substitutions were not the original concept of the ancient formulators.



Btw, I don't use American ginseng either. It is not that I deny such herbs

have herbal value, but I see no reason to complicate diagnosis and

treatment by using them (since neither is found in any traditional formula

I am aware of).



>are there

>brand (s) of powders and capsules that you feel are more reliable than

>others? or perhaps, would you simply recommend taking the time to have a

>good cup of ginseng tea, which would then supply the needed attributes.



I do not use ginseng tea very commonly with my clients. It has use in cases

of clear Yang depletion. Otherwise, a properly-selected formula is the

appropriate method of ginseng therapy. If I do use ginseng tea, the paste

is the form I recommend.



>-BTW i really don't think information about specific purveyors of

>quality herbs is a misuse of this list. advertising bothers me but

>personal referrals are important in separating wheat from chaff.



Well, I strongly disagree. Such a 'discussion' quickly shows itself to be

entrepreneurialism, and that is to be discouraged whenever necessary.



I understand that others see this differently, but I simply will not

participate in a commercial forum, since I am a professional herbalist, and

if I offer my services on a list like this for free, it is not acceptable

to me for someone to be hawking products in the next post over. There is

very little in this universe I hate more than posting something about

healing, and having some ass with a hole in his pocket follow up with

'that's right, and my purple spiruella pills will do the trick.'



>the

>self-serving-opinion detritus will generally show up for what it is. i

>also don't believe that any personal obligation is accrued by the one

>who offers recommendations gleaned from personal experience. commentary

>from the road so to say.



Plants are plants. It would be far more preferable to discuss them, and

leave off with business whenever possible. I believe there are several very

good tincturing companies out there for people who chose to use such

forms--I never do. It is clear which companies care about the herbs they

package. As for capsules, buyer beware in all cases, since capsules are all

too commonly crap.



>TIA

>

>mike



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 08:53:37 +0000

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <locator@mail.fortnet.org>

From:         Paul Culmstock <locator@MYMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds



Hi All,

   I have heard this about many herbs. The fact is that the

herb purveyors have based their dosage (the one given on the

bottle) so that the herb will be safe for anyone to take. With

an herb like Echinacea, you need to take a teaspoon of a 5:1

or 4:1 tincture or extract every 3 or 4 hours, not 30 drops or

whatever is on the label. This is a therapeutic dose. A WORD

OF WARNING----- echinacea is harmless, relatively speaking,

but you must know herbs very well to determine therapeutic

dosages that are also safe dosages for other herbs. There are many

herbs that must not be taken at large dosages for a protracted length

of time. I would suggest an ND or an OMD for input on these.

Paul Hermes

Paul Culmstock

Locator Investigations

P.O. Box 2861

Estes Park, CO  80517

1-970-586-4336



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:01:06 +0000

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <locator@mail.fortnet.org>

From:         Paul Culmstock <locator@MYMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Garcinia cambogia



HCA, the active ingredient in Garcinia Cambogia(as far as the fat

question is concerned) prevents excess carbohydrate from being

stored as fat. Native peoples have been using it for a long time but

I am not aware of any long term scientific studies that would prove

it safe for long term use. If you want energy in pill form, then take

an octacosanol capsule and a kelp tablet along with it. These will

give energy and also help with your fat loss program, assuming that

you have a properly functioning thyroid and thyroid hormone

receptors.

Paul Hermes

Paul Culmstock

Locator Investigations

P.O. Box 2861

Estes Park, CO  80517

1-970-586-4336



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:05:35 +0000

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <locator@mail.fortnet.org>

From:         Paul Culmstock <locator@MYMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Natural stimulant



Hi,

Octacosanol(an ingredient of wheat germ oil), kelp tablets,

an Krebs Cycle intermediaries, all of which can be found

in a good vitamin shop.

Paul

Paul Culmstock

Locator Investigations

P.O. Box 2861

Estes Park, CO  80517

1-970-586-4336



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:05:35 +0000

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <locator@mail.fortnet.org>

From:         Paul Culmstock <locator@MYMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Natural stimulant



Paul Culmstock

Locator Investigations

P.O. Box 2861

Estes Park, CO  80517

1-970-586-4336



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 12:17:55 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         John Stankiewicz <radiant@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds



At 06:58 PM 8/31/96 +0100, you wrote:

>>That's just pure bull.  Properly cooked food also contains few enzymes, the

>>fiber is mush.

>

>Physiological nonsense. 'Proper' cooking doesn't affect fiber at all, other

>than to make it pass more easily, by softening its walls.

>

>I'm filtering all your posts from now on, since countering all the idiocy

>in the world is beyond me. I presume that most readers in this list can

>tell that you are several nuts short on surviving the winter.

>

>Paul



Fortunately I think most readers think the opposite.  Most readers would

appreciate you stating that your opinions are based on TCM and what you

personally know.  There are other systems that are valid and have been

proven to work in the world, not just theory.  You should preface your

statements with something like: Well, in Traditional Chinese Medicine, we

believe that fruit is not so good for you, and etc..  This way many of us

wouldn't find your comments so objectionable, as if *you* were the ultimate

authoirty, which you're definitely not.  You have your opinions and they

would be more appreciated by most of us (since you do give good advice) if

they weren't so loud, scathing, and intolerant.  There are better ways of

saying what you want to say without rubbing people the wrong way.  No one

absorbs what is being said to them very well when it is said in an un-loving

and attacking tone.



http://www.radiant-living.com (where we try to avoid premature cognitive

commitments or old paradigms and present new ones!)

The average person has about 65,000 thoughts a day.  What is disconcerting

is that more than 95% of the thoughts are the same ones as the person had

yesterday.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 12:33:35 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         John Stankiewicz <radiant@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds



At 02:24 PM 9/1/96 -0400, you wrote:

>John, as a student of Naturopathy, I understand where you are coming from.

> After much nutritional experimentation over the years, I have personally

>found a diet high in raw veggies & fruits (or live foods) to totally

>transform my immune system in a positively boosting way.

>

>Karen Fite

>Tulsa, OK

>

Thanks Karen.  Our Community has been practicing the optimally raw diet for

the past 25 years with good results.  It has been proven by others as well.

I also have a good conviction about this despite what others may say because

in this world of self-proclaimed authority figures I believe only one of

them: my Spiritual Master, who has tested these things in his own body and

who certainly can be said to have Realized (and experienced directly, rather

than second hand knowledge one receives in training for a particular field)

many more things about this life than most people I'll ever meet anywhere.



John.



http://www.radiant-living.com (where we try to avoid premature cognitive

commitments or old paradigms and present new ones!)

The average person has about 65,000 thoughts a day.  What is disconcerting

is that more than 95% of the thoughts are the same ones as the person had

yesterday.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 12:39:04 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         John Stankiewicz <radiant@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject:      Re: Spleen Chakra



At 02:24 PM 9/1/96 -0400, you wrote:

>I just had training in chakra balancing a few months ago.  There is a spleen

>chakra - it's just not one of the 7 major chakras.  I guess you could call it

>a minor chakra like the mid chest, elbow, knee, hand, and foot chakras.  Our

>training was based on Barbara Brennan's books (Hands of Light & Light

>Emerging) and Brugh Joy's book (Joy's Way), to name just a few of the sources

>of information.

>

>Karen Fite

>Tulsa, OK

>

Yes, the reason it is not emphasized in the Eastern traditions is because

they are more focused on the sex-organ chakra than on the spleen chakra.  At

least that is one of the explanations.  The spleen chakra is like a

transformer that takes in pranic energy and steps it down appropriately

depending on the individual and then directs the stepped-down energy to the

other major chakras in the body.  In fact, when someone is given an

anasthetic the pranas (or etheric part of the body) leaves through this

chakra, almost completely.  If the person is given too much anasthetic

(that's why Anasthesiologists are such nerve-rackced people - highest

suicide rate I heard) then the preson can die because that's exactly what

happens at death: the pranic energies leave the pranic sheath while the

person is dying.  Anyway, this is off-topic but interesting.



John.

http://www.radiant-living.com (where we try to avoid premature cognitive

commitments or old paradigms and present new ones!)

The average person has about 65,000 thoughts a day.  What is disconcerting

is that more than 95% of the thoughts are the same ones as the person had

yesterday.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:58:35 SLT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Rohan H Wickramasinghe <rohan@ITES.AC.LK>

Organization: Institute for Tropical Environmental Studies

Subject:      1)Spices and 2)Medicinal Herbs



Hello,



Several years ago, we published some papers relevant

to the use of herbs for medicinal purposes. We

would be grateful for advice as to whether there has

been any further work in these areas of research and

for relevant references. The references to our work in

the two areas in question are given below.



1. INFLUENCE OF DIETARY SPICES  ON RESPONSE

   TO MEDICATION



   This research reported the observation of a

   "substrate-binding" spectrum of spice constituents

   with hepatic microsomal cytochrome P450 preparations



   Reference:

   R.H.Wickramasinghe, G.Mueller and K.Norpoth,"Spectral

   evidence of interaction of spice constituents with

   hepatic microsomal cytochrome P450 ",

   CYTOBIOS (Cambridge,England) vol.29 (1980) 25-27



2. COMPARISON OF CEYLONESE AND CHINESE MEDICINAL HERBS



   References:

   1) " Comparison of Chinese and Ceylonese herbs used in

      medications for the treatment of menstrual disorders",

      Abstracts, 59th Annual Meeting of the Endocrine Society,

      8-10 June 1977 at Chicago, Illinois, abstr.no.577

      (with C.Ponnamperuma)

   2) " Comparison of Chinese and Ceylonese herbs used in the

      treatment of fevers ", Abstracts, 34th Annual National

      Meeting of the American Federation for Clinical Research,

      30 April to 2 May 1977 at Washington, D.C.,

      CLINICAL RESEARCH 25 (1977) 278A (with C.Ponnamperuma)

   3) " Comparison of Chinese and Ceylonese herbs used in the

      treatment of urinary disorders ",

      CLINICAL RESEARCH 25 (1977) 451A (with C.Ponnamperuma)

   4) " Comparison of Chinese and Ceylonese herbs used in

      gastroenterology ", CLINICAL RESEARCH 25 (1977) 575A

   5) " Comparison of Chinese and Ceylonese herbs used in

      dermatology ", CLINICAL RESEARCH 25 (1977) 589A

   6) " Comparison of Chinese and Ceylonese herbs used in

      medications for treating dysentery, microbial infections

      or for antipyretic action ",

      CLINICAL RESEARCH 26 (1978) 14A

   7) " Comparison of Chinese and Ceylonese herbs used in

      medications for pulmonary affections ",

      CLINICAL RESEARCH 26 (1978) 87A

   8) " Comparison of Chinese and Ceylonese herbs used in

      connection with worm infestations ",

      CLINICAL RESEARCH 26 (1978) 101A

   9) " Comparison of Chinese and Ceylonese herbs used in the

      treatment of ophthalmia ",

      CLINICAL RESEARCH 26 (1978) 296A



Thank you very much for your time and any help you can give.



Rohan H. Wickramasinghe, Ph.D.,

Institute for Tropical Environmental Studies,

41 Flower Road,

Colombo 7,

Sri Lanka



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 10:26:14 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Howie Brounstein <howieb@TELEPORT.COM>

Subject:      Re: Natural stimulant



At 03:57 PM 8/31/96 +0100, you wrote:

>>Can anyone recommend a natural stimulant which does no harm to the body

>>(i.e., an alternative to caffeine)?

>

>Why yes. Sufficient sleep, mild daily exercise, and regular meals.

>

>Paul

>

>



I agree with Paul completely. These are first things you should do for more

energy. Only after that should you consider herbs, and even then you should

be taking herbs that treat imbalances, not Central Nervous System stimulants.



When I make deliveries to local stores, I always ask the HABA person what

they have for more energy, and very few say "have you tried sleeping".



The question remains, do you want to live a healthy lifestyle that nurtures

your own natural energy, or do you want to take a stimulant that creates a

"false energy" stolen from other areas of your body. If you take stimulants

for energy you will eventually need to "pay the fiddler". You will use up

energy you really don't have, use up reserves needed for healthy

maintenance, and worsen physical problems you already have.



To use Paul's example from another thread, if you were climbing Mt. Everest,

you might consider taking a stimulant, but you would be consciously putting

the task at hand above your short term health. At least you would eventually

climb the mountain or not, and return to a more normal lifestyle.





Unfortunately our North American culture pushes the pill popping, herb

taking, coffee drinking, overtime, overdrive lifestyle. There is no time to

sleep, barely time to brush your hair. And we wonder why we're tired, why

we're sick. If you sleep, eat, and exercise, many health problems disappear.



So many folks want to "boost their immune system," perhaps a new herbal

cliche. Would you believe lack of sleep compromises the immune system?





Howie Brounstein

howieb@teleport.com

http://www.teleport.com/~howieb/howie.html



"It's easy to harvest wild plants, the hard part is not harvesting."



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 17:17:04 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Maureen Rogers <HERBWORLD@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: other listserves



Check out HerbNET's Potpourri section for all related herb

lists.....http://www.herbnet.com/



And tomorrow (Sept 3)....new magazine will be up with Turmeric, Slippery Elm

and Lemongrass as herbs of the month....information on the upcoming Baton

Rouge Herb Business Winter Getaway Conference and lots of new calendar of

events



Maureen

The Herb Growing and Marketing Network



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 20:02:39 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Plant World Today <richier@INTREPID.NET>



HERB NO MAIL



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 20:04:35 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Plant World Today <richier@INTREPID.NET>

Subject:      Re: Another herb of the month!



I have read this book and find it very useful and recommend it to others!



>Dear people on this list,

>     First I just want to thank all of you for your words of encouragement

>with my first post about Bilberry.  You all are right, it sure did bring up a

>lot of information and topic.

>

>     I am preparing for my next newsletter and even though I am almost afraid

>to post this I thought I would see what you think about my next choice.  It

>is going to be Ginger.  I tried this month to pick a non-controversial one

>but one that is very therapeutic and safe.  I also have a recipe I found in a

>magazine for a ginger liniment and a frothy ginger julius smoothe!

>

>     Anyway, what I was wondering is what everyone thinks of the book

>"Natural Healing with Herbs" by Humbart Santillo, N.D.  Now remember, be nice

>but be honest.  My skin is a little tougher this time. :-)   This is my

>favorite book of all my library and the one that has helped me the most.  It

>covers many many herbs and their medicinal uses and how to use them in the

>front half, then in the back half it covers ailments.   Now, as with all

>books I have found things in it I do not agree with, but I would just like a

>general overview from you if it isn't asking too much.  And Paul, since you

>did not like the other two books I have I am really interested in knowing

>what you think about this one.  Honestly.

>

>     And just for the record, I do not sell any of Murrays products in any

>way shape or form.  In fact, I really do not sell much of anything except an

>occasional bottle of herbs from Frontier Herbs. I mostly buy for myself.  So

>I really am not out to promote anyone elses product.

>

>Allways Herbally Natural,

>Marcia

>

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 19:26:49 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Randy Froeba <htcw@GNA.COM>

Organization: Herbal Treasures and Cedar Works

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds



Paul Iannone wrote:

>

> >  Re: Echinacea

> What were you expecting this poor plant to DO for you?

>

> Another casualty of herb marketing.

>

> Paul-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul,

Another informative answer?!!!!?

What are you marketing?



Randy and Cathy Froeba



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 2 Sep 1996 19:36:14 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Randy Froeba <htcw@GNA.COM>

Organization: Herbal Treasures and Cedar Works

Subject:      Re: Kombucha Tea - Dawn



Paul Iannone wrote:

>

> >Hi

> >

> >thisis a silly question but I'll ask it anyway. What signs do you notice

> >when you are about to be dehydrated???

> >

> >

> >Aggie

>

> If you think you MAY be dehydrated, you probably are.

>

> Paul-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul,

This is not an answer!! Your smart, SHOW US!!!

Us "Common Folk" would like to KNOW!!!!!!!!!!



Randy and Cathy Froeba



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 00:45:06 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Howie Brounstein <howieb@TELEPORT.COM>

Subject:      Oregon Grape is not Endangered



>Is Oregon Grape endangered?

>Thanks

>Joan



One more time, let me all of you, Oregon Grape is NOT endangered. The rumors

that fly around about it come from herbalists who don't walk around enough,

or don't understand natural succession . Any botanist from the Pacific

Northwest would laugh at the idea. Actually being a bridge between the

herbal (can't identify it properly) and botanical (wouldn't ever eat it or

use it) worlds, I have gotten laughs about this from the botanists, and

arguments from very few herbalists.



Berberis nervosa and aquifolium are MAJOR DOMINANT SHRUBS in many areas of

the Pacific Northwest. They are not listed as rare, sensitive, threatened,

or endangered by the federal or state agencies. No species of Berberis is

even on a watch list, or a species of concern list. BERBERIS WILL SURVIVE

CLEARCUTS! (It will take a few years before it returns strong, perhaps up to

15 or 20, but if the soil doesn't blow away, it remains strong after the

canopy returns)



>If I recall correctly, Michael Moore was saying it is locally endangered in

>some areas.

>

>Paul

>

As far as Michael Moore, perhaps you are remembering wrong. He lists it as

abundant and ok to wildcraft in his Materia Medica (available through his

homepage). Locally endangered in some  areas? hmm, no.  It is legally

threatened in NO AREAS, although certainly every plant is rare beyond the

edge of its range, but wildcrafting ethics would prevent us from harvesting

from small, remote populations.



It is amazing how tenacious this rumor is. I get email and phone calls about

this on a regular basis.



>There has been a pile of it in my face all summer and I was about to rip it

>out by it's little roots but a little voice from this herb list said, "don't

>you remember something about it possibly being endangered.!"

>Rather than rip out something sacred, I thought I'd check it out.

>End of story--I settled for trimming rather than risk mucking up my little

>ecosystem and we are living together amicably.

>Joan

>

>



Here's some cut and paste from a few months ago on this list. I think I'll

post the full post on my homepage in the near future:





>Oregon Grape Root is Berberis aquifolium (Low land species)

> or Berberis nervosa (mountain species) in Oregon.

>Berberis repens grows a bit in Eastern Oregon, but is in

>small amounts and grows in more fragile ecosystems, so I

>don't pick it in Oregon ... although in the Rockies it grows in

>the forest floor in non-fragile ecosystems. In those

>places it could be harvested ecologically. Mister Moore has

> said that each Berberis has its own particular specific

>indications, still there is greatly overlap in their general uses

> (indications). I use Berberis nervosa because I love

>where it grows, the forest floor at low to middle elevations

>in the Cascade Mountain Ranges of Oregon and

>Washington.

>

>Many folks use the name Mahonia instead of Berberis.

>You'd think by now everyone would agree on one latin

>name. That's why we have latin names. But this is not the case.

>I heard that botanical texts use the term Berberis,

>and horticultural texts use the term Mahonia. Well, if that's the

>case, than the botanist's Berberis is the real name,

>because botanists are real scientists and horticulturalists just garden.

>Or should I say that the true name is

>Mahonia, because horticulturalists do the real work with plants while

>botanical folks are removed from reality like

>most science, working in the herbarium with theories and clean

>fingernails. This debate is endless, and an Oregon

>Grape by any name still tastes just as bad as Goldenseal.

>

>

>Berberis nervosa grows from thick horizontal roots (actually

> underground stems, rhizomes). When I harvest it, I

>break the top portion with some rhizome, and replant. I do this

>in the rainy seasons, and the forest duff is like a

>perfect growing medium for the plants. Doing this for many years I have

> found that the plants regrow readily,

>tagged plants showing an amazing ability to take hold and regrow,

> sometimes feet in one year. The rhizome left in

>the ground, where the roots snap during the harvest, remain

>the ground and resprout. Berberis is not in any danger

>of extinction, and is one of the most common ground covers in its

>ecosystem. In many places it is the dominant

>shrub of the forest floor.

>

>Berberis nervosa survives clearcuts and partial cuts, and

>will disappear if you change the amount of moisture in the

>system, being replaced by Salal (Gaultheria shallon) if the

>system dries some, Sword Ferns (Polystichum munitum)

>if the area becomes too wet. Drying sometime occurs from

>logging, but succession eventually shows that the

>Berberis returns as the forest canopy returns (less light,

>more retained moisture). I believe Oregon Grape to be

>completely ethical to harvest. Certainly, we I would hate to

>see the world's supply of anything come from one

>geographic area; this often causes extinction or complete

>removal of a natural resource. However, if any plant was

>to replace trees in the Economy of the Pacific Northwest,

>Proper Oregon Grape Root harvesting would be a prime

>candidate. Would this massive harvesting be done in an ecological

> way, or will greed show its ugly face, who can

>say? There is no place for greed when harvesting plants.

>

>







Howie Brounstein

howieb@teleport.com

http://www.teleport.com/~howieb/howie.html



"It's easy to harvest wild plants, the hard part is not harvesting."



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 07:35:22 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Sheila J Halper <SJHALPER@BICS.BWH.HARVARD.EDU>



Hi.  In reply to signs of dehydration:  your heart rate will increase, temp.

will increase, urination will decrease, skin will lose its turgor, and you

might feel dizzy upon standing (this is secondary to orthostatic hypotension -

your body tries to compensate for loss of fluid volume, and therefore you

become hypotensive with  changes in position).  :-).  Sheila.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 07:54:20 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Howie Brounstein (by way of Warren Kingsley

              <wk8982@pacbell.net>)" <howieb@TELEPORT.COM>

Subject:      Unsubscribe?



How do I Unsubscribe?



Warren Kingsley



>Is Oregon Grape endangered?

>Thanks

>Joan



One more time, let me all of you, Oregon Grape is NOT endangered. The rumors

that fly around about it come from herbalists who don't walk around enough,

or don't understand natural succession . Any botanist from the Pacific

Northwest would laugh at the idea. Actually being a bridge between the

herbal (can't identify it properly) and botanical (wouldn't ever eat it or

use it) worlds, I have gotten laughs about this from the botanists, and

arguments from very few herbalists.



Berberis nervosa and aquifolium are MAJOR DOMINANT SHRUBS in many areas of

the Pacific Northwest. They are not listed as rare, sensitive, threatened,

or endangered by the federal or state agencies. No species of Berberis is

even on a watch list, or a species of concern list. BERBERIS WILL SURVIVE

CLEARCUTS! (It will take a few years before it returns strong, perhaps up to

15 or 20, but if the soil doesn't blow away, it remains strong after the

canopy returns)



>If I recall correctly, Michael Moore was saying it is locally endangered in

>some areas.

>

>Paul

>

As far as Michael Moore, perhaps you are remembering wrong. He lists it as

abundant and ok to wildcraft in his Materia Medica (available through his

homepage). Locally endangered in some  areas? hmm, no.  It is legally

threatened in NO AREAS, although certainly every plant is rare beyond the

edge of its range, but wildcrafting ethics would prevent us from harvesting

from small, remote populations.



It is amazing how tenacious this rumor is. I get email and phone calls about

this on a regular basis.



>There has been a pile of it in my face all summer and I was about to rip it

>out by it's little roots but a little voice from this herb list said, "don't

>you remember something about it possibly being endangered.!"

>Rather than rip out something sacred, I thought I'd check it out.

>End of story--I settled for trimming rather than risk mucking up my little

>ecosystem and we are living together amicably.

>Joan

>

>



Here's some cut and paste from a few months ago on this list. I think I'll

post the full post on my homepage in the near future:





>Oregon Grape Root is Berberis aquifolium (Low land species)

> or Berberis nervosa (mountain species) in Oregon.

>Berberis repens grows a bit in Eastern Oregon, but is in

>small amounts and grows in more fragile ecosystems, so I

>don't pick it in Oregon ... although in the Rockies it grows in

>the forest floor in non-fragile ecosystems. In those

>places it could be harvested ecologically. Mister Moore has

> said that each Berberis has its own particular specific

>indications, still there is greatly overlap in their general uses

> (indications). I use Berberis nervosa because I love

>where it grows, the forest floor at low to middle elevations

>in the Cascade Mountain Ranges of Oregon and

>Washington.

>

>Many folks use the name Mahonia instead of Berberis.

>You'd think by now everyone would agree on one latin

>name. That's why we have latin names. But this is not the case.

>I heard that botanical texts use the term Berberis,

>and horticultural texts use the term Mahonia. Well, if that's the

>case, than the botanist's Berberis is the real name,

>because botanists are real scientists and horticulturalists just garden.

>Or should I say that the true name is

>Mahonia, because horticulturalists do the real work with plants while

>botanical folks are removed from reality like

>most science, working in the herbarium with theories and clean

>fingernails. This debate is endless, and an Oregon

>Grape by any name still tastes just as bad as Goldenseal.

>

>

>Berberis nervosa grows from thick horizontal roots (actually

> underground stems, rhizomes). When I harvest it, I

>break the top portion with some rhizome, and replant. I do this

>in the rainy seasons, and the forest duff is like a

>perfect growing medium for the plants. Doing this for many years I have

> found that the plants regrow readily,

>tagged plants showing an amazing ability to take hold and regrow,

> sometimes feet in one year. The rhizome left in

>the ground, where the roots snap during the harvest, remain

>the ground and resprout. Berberis is not in any danger

>of extinction, and is one of the most common ground covers in its

>ecosystem. In many places it is the dominant

>shrub of the forest floor.

>

>Berberis nervosa survives clearcuts and partial cuts, and

>will disappear if you change the amount of moisture in the

>system, being replaced by Salal (Gaultheria shallon) if the

>system dries some, Sword Ferns (Polystichum munitum)

>if the area becomes too wet. Drying sometime occurs from

>logging, but succession eventually shows that the

>Berberis returns as the forest canopy returns (less light,

>more retained moisture). I believe Oregon Grape to be

>completely ethical to harvest. Certainly, we I would hate to

>see the world's supply of anything come from one

>geographic area; this often causes extinction or complete

>removal of a natural resource. However, if any plant was

>to replace trees in the Economy of the Pacific Northwest,

>Proper Oregon Grape Root harvesting would be a prime

>candidate. Would this massive harvesting be done in an ecological

> way, or will greed show its ugly face, who can

>say? There is no place for greed when harvesting plants.

>

>







Howie Brounstein

howieb@teleport.com

http://www.teleport.com/~howieb/howie.html



"It's easy to harvest wild plants, the hard part is not harvesting."



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 07:58:48 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Warren Kingsley <wk8982@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Unsubscribe?



How do I unsubscribe?



Warren Kingsley



At 12:45 AM 9/3/96 -0700, you wrote:

>>Is Oregon Grape endangered?

>>Thanks

>>Joan

>

>One more time, let me all of you, Oregon Grape is NOT endangered. The rumors

>that fly around about it come from herbalists who don't walk around enough,

>or don't understand natural succession . Any botanist from the Pacific

>Northwest would laugh at the idea. Actually being a bridge between the

>herbal (can't identify it properly) and botanical (wouldn't ever eat it or

>use it) worlds, I have gotten laughs about this from the botanists, and

>arguments from very few herbalists.

>

>Berberis nervosa and aquifolium are MAJOR DOMINANT SHRUBS in many areas of

>the Pacific Northwest. They are not listed as rare, sensitive, threatened,

>or endangered by the federal or state agencies. No species of Berberis is

>even on a watch list, or a species of concern list. BERBERIS WILL SURVIVE

>CLEARCUTS! (It will take a few years before it returns strong, perhaps up to

>15 or 20, but if the soil doesn't blow away, it remains strong after the

>canopy returns)

>

>>If I recall correctly, Michael Moore was saying it is locally endangered in

>>some areas.

>>

>>Paul

>>

>As far as Michael Moore, perhaps you are remembering wrong. He lists it as

>abundant and ok to wildcraft in his Materia Medica (available through his

>homepage). Locally endangered in some  areas? hmm, no.  It is legally

>threatened in NO AREAS, although certainly every plant is rare beyond the

>edge of its range, but wildcrafting ethics would prevent us from harvesting

>from small, remote populations.

>

>It is amazing how tenacious this rumor is. I get email and phone calls about

>this on a regular basis.

>

>>There has been a pile of it in my face all summer and I was about to rip it

>>out by it's little roots but a little voice from this herb list said, "don't

>>you remember something about it possibly being endangered.!"

>>Rather than rip out something sacred, I thought I'd check it out.

>>End of story--I settled for trimming rather than risk mucking up my little

>>ecosystem and we are living together amicably.

>>Joan

>>

>>

>

>Here's some cut and paste from a few months ago on this list. I think I'll

>post the full post on my homepage in the near future:

>

>

>>Oregon Grape Root is Berberis aquifolium (Low land species)

>> or Berberis nervosa (mountain species) in Oregon.

>>Berberis repens grows a bit in Eastern Oregon, but is in

>>small amounts and grows in more fragile ecosystems, so I

>>don't pick it in Oregon ... although in the Rockies it grows in

>>the forest floor in non-fragile ecosystems. In those

>>places it could be harvested ecologically. Mister Moore has

>> said that each Berberis has its own particular specific

>>indications, still there is greatly overlap in their general uses

>> (indications). I use Berberis nervosa because I love

>>where it grows, the forest floor at low to middle elevations

>>in the Cascade Mountain Ranges of Oregon and

>>Washington.

>>

>>Many folks use the name Mahonia instead of Berberis.

>>You'd think by now everyone would agree on one latin

>>name. That's why we have latin names. But this is not the case.

>>I heard that botanical texts use the term Berberis,

>>and horticultural texts use the term Mahonia. Well, if that's the

>>case, than the botanist's Berberis is the real name,

>>because botanists are real scientists and horticulturalists just garden.

>>Or should I say that the true name is

>>Mahonia, because horticulturalists do the real work with plants while

>>botanical folks are removed from reality like

>>most science, working in the herbarium with theories and clean

>>fingernails. This debate is endless, and an Oregon

>>Grape by any name still tastes just as bad as Goldenseal.

>>

>>

>>Berberis nervosa grows from thick horizontal roots (actually

>> underground stems, rhizomes). When I harvest it, I

>>break the top portion with some rhizome, and replant. I do this

>>in the rainy seasons, and the forest duff is like a

>>perfect growing medium for the plants. Doing this for many years I have

>> found that the plants regrow readily,

>>tagged plants showing an amazing ability to take hold and regrow,

>> sometimes feet in one year. The rhizome left in

>>the ground, where the roots snap during the harvest, remain

>>the ground and resprout. Berberis is not in any danger

>>of extinction, and is one of the most common ground covers in its

>>ecosystem. In many places it is the dominant

>>shrub of the forest floor.

>>

>>Berberis nervosa survives clearcuts and partial cuts, and

>>will disappear if you change the amount of moisture in the

>>system, being replaced by Salal (Gaultheria shallon) if the

>>system dries some, Sword Ferns (Polystichum munitum)

>>if the area becomes too wet. Drying sometime occurs from

>>logging, but succession eventually shows that the

>>Berberis returns as the forest canopy returns (less light,

>>more retained moisture). I believe Oregon Grape to be

>>completely ethical to harvest. Certainly, we I would hate to

>>see the world's supply of anything come from one

>>geographic area; this often causes extinction or complete

>>removal of a natural resource. However, if any plant was

>>to replace trees in the Economy of the Pacific Northwest,

>>Proper Oregon Grape Root harvesting would be a prime

>>candidate. Would this massive harvesting be done in an ecological

>> way, or will greed show its ugly face, who can

>>say? There is no place for greed when harvesting plants.

>>

>>

>

>

>

>Howie Brounstein

>howieb@teleport.com

>http://www.teleport.com/~howieb/howie.html

>

>"It's easy to harvest wild plants, the hard part is not harvesting."

>

>

Warren Kingsley,Sherman Oaks,CA

wk8982@pacbell.net (Primary)

wk8982@juno.com (Secondary)



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:47:22 +0200

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "K. Raley" <kraley@GNN.COM>

Subject:      no-fruit diet: more results



After considering Paul's comments on Americans overeating fruit, I

went on a no-fruit diet, quickly adding fermented/yeast products

and refined sugar to the prohibited list. After about a week of

this, I reported to the list that I had had some digestive

discomfort, a cessation of craving for sugar and alcohol, appetite

loss, increased hot flashes, some weight loss, and very high

(sometimes too high) energy, among other things.  Unreported but

felt during the 2nd week: odd dizziness for 3 days.



I continued the diet, always supplementing with vitamins,

minerals, bga, and enzymes.  The diet was high in cooked and

uncooked veggies and in grain. I also made a lot of fresh herb

teas.  Lots of different kinds, according to my herb books'

advice.



Results after one month:  energy good, generally even.  Digestion

good, appetite still reduced but not absent. Hot flashes somewhat

reduced (b/c of the particular herb teas, I think), weight loss

still maintained, no sugar or alcohol temptations even when at

parties, etc.  By the fourth week of the no fruit-diet, I began

rapidly accumulating an alarming number of noticeably ugly and

sore external and possibly internal bruises, even tho' taking 1500

mg/day of ascorbic acid, 2 lg gelcaps of marine oils, and eating

lots of A-rich foods.



Decision: revert to fruits gradually, starting with fresh OJ,

supplement more with C-complex instead of just ascorbic acid, add

beta-carotene. Drink more dandelion, dock, chickweed teas. That

was 3 days ago.  If the bruising does not cease within a week, I

will update this information.



I would greatly appreciate any comments/advice from the list.

Thanks,



K. Raley



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:07:56 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Daniel Miller <un106@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>

Subject:      Re: Unsubscribe?...Oregon Grape

In-Reply-To:  <3.0b11.32.19960903075331.0067f1f8@pacbell.net>



Howie Brounstein offers some interesting information below however the

people at the longest operating herbal dispensary in my area insist that

Oregon grape has been claimed to be endangered. So I am not inclined to

take Mr. Broustein's substantially worded referemces as proof to his

claim. And I have been advised that there are other herbs with similiar

medicinal properties to that of Oregon Grape.



Dan



On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, Howie Brounstein (by way of Warren Kingsley <wk8982@pacbell.net>) wrote:



> How do I Unsubscribe?

>

> Warren Kingsley

>

> >Is Oregon Grape endangered?

> >Thanks

> >Joan

>

> One more time, let me all of you, Oregon Grape is NOT endangered. The rumors

> that fly around about it come from herbalists who don't walk around enough,

> or don't understand natural succession . Any botanist from the Pacific

> Northwest would laugh at the idea. Actually being a bridge between the

> herbal (can't identify it properly) and botanical (wouldn't ever eat it or

> use it) worlds, I have gotten laughs about this from the botanists, and

> arguments from very few herbalists.

>

> Berberis nervosa and aquifolium are MAJOR DOMINANT SHRUBS in many areas of

> the Pacific Northwest. They are not listed as rare, sensitive, threatened,

> or endangered by the federal or state agencies. No species of Berberis is

> even on a watch list, or a species of concern list. BERBERIS WILL SURVIVE

> CLEARCUTS! (It will take a few years before it returns strong, perhaps up to

> 15 or 20, but if the soil doesn't blow away, it remains strong after the

> canopy returns)

>

> >If I recall correctly, Michael Moore was saying it is locally endangered in

> >some areas.

> >

> >Paul

> >

> As far as Michael Moore, perhaps you are remembering wrong. He lists it as

> abundant and ok to wildcraft in his Materia Medica (available through his

> homepage). Locally endangered in some  areas? hmm, no.  It is legally

> threatened in NO AREAS, although certainly every plant is rare beyond the

> edge of its range, but wildcrafting ethics would prevent us from harvesting

> from small, remote populations.

>

> It is amazing how tenacious this rumor is. I get email and phone calls about

> this on a regular basis.

>

> >There has been a pile of it in my face all summer and I was about to rip it

> >out by it's little roots but a little voice from this herb list said, "don't

> >you remember something about it possibly being endangered.!"

> >Rather than rip out something sacred, I thought I'd check it out.

> >End of story--I settled for trimming rather than risk mucking up my little

> >ecosystem and we are living together amicably.

> >Joan

> >

> >

>

> Here's some cut and paste from a few months ago on this list. I think I'll

> post the full post on my homepage in the near future:

>

>

> >Oregon Grape Root is Berberis aquifolium (Low land species)

> > or Berberis nervosa (mountain species) in Oregon.

> >Berberis repens grows a bit in Eastern Oregon, but is in

> >small amounts and grows in more fragile ecosystems, so I

> >don't pick it in Oregon ... although in the Rockies it grows in

> >the forest floor in non-fragile ecosystems. In those

> >places it could be harvested ecologically. Mister Moore has

> > said that each Berberis has its own particular specific

> >indications, still there is greatly overlap in their general uses

> > (indications). I use Berberis nervosa because I love

> >where it grows, the forest floor at low to middle elevations

> >in the Cascade Mountain Ranges of Oregon and

> >Washington.

> >

> >Many folks use the name Mahonia instead of Berberis.

> >You'd think by now everyone would agree on one latin

> >name. That's why we have latin names. But this is not the case.

> >I heard that botanical texts use the term Berberis,

> >and horticultural texts use the term Mahonia. Well, if that's the

> >case, than the botanist's Berberis is the real name,

> >because botanists are real scientists and horticulturalists just garden.

> >Or should I say that the true name is

> >Mahonia, because horticulturalists do the real work with plants while

> >botanical folks are removed from reality like

> >most science, working in the herbarium with theories and clean

> >fingernails. This debate is endless, and an Oregon

> >Grape by any name still tastes just as bad as Goldenseal.

> >

> >

> >Berberis nervosa grows from thick horizontal roots (actually

> > underground stems, rhizomes). When I harvest it, I

> >break the top portion with some rhizome, and replant. I do this

> >in the rainy seasons, and the forest duff is like a

> >perfect growing medium for the plants. Doing this for many years I have

> > found that the plants regrow readily,

> >tagged plants showing an amazing ability to take hold and regrow,

> > sometimes feet in one year. The rhizome left in

> >the ground, where the roots snap during the harvest, remain

> >the ground and resprout. Berberis is not in any danger

> >of extinction, and is one of the most common ground covers in its

> >ecosystem. In many places it is the dominant

> >shrub of the forest floor.

> >

> >Berberis nervosa survives clearcuts and partial cuts, and

> >will disappear if you change the amount of moisture in the

> >system, being replaced by Salal (Gaultheria shallon) if the

> >system dries some, Sword Ferns (Polystichum munitum)

> >if the area becomes too wet. Drying sometime occurs from

> >logging, but succession eventually shows that the

> >Berberis returns as the forest canopy returns (less light,

> >more retained moisture). I believe Oregon Grape to be

> >completely ethical to harvest. Certainly, we I would hate to

> >see the world's supply of anything come from one

> >geographic area; this often causes extinction or complete

> >removal of a natural resource. However, if any plant was

> >to replace trees in the Economy of the Pacific Northwest,

> >Proper Oregon Grape Root harvesting would be a prime

> >candidate. Would this massive harvesting be done in an ecological

> > way, or will greed show its ugly face, who can

> >say? There is no place for greed when harvesting plants.

> >

> >

>

>

>

> Howie Brounstein

> howieb@teleport.com

> http://www.teleport.com/~howieb/howie.html

>

> "It's easy to harvest wild plants, the hard part is not harvesting."

>





how sig can it be?



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:50:45 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Cindy Lee <CindyLee@MINDSPRING.COM>

Subject:      Michael Tierra's books



Why don't you try one of Michael Tierra's books? Planetary Herbology is OK,

not always accurate, but a useful synthesis of Chinese and Western

concepts. Look under the category of 'Adrenal Yang Tonics' in that book.

~~~~~~~~~~

from Paul Iannone from herb group

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Attention Paul!



Hi,



You suggested looking at one of Michael Tierra's books. I've looked at the

library and they don't have it. Is this a speciality book? Do you have

suggestions as to where I would find it? Is this something that I can find

in a bookstore or should I search used book stores?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

><>  <><

     |_

    \__/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Smiles,

Cindy Lee

Zone 8

cindylee@mindspring.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 A rose by any other name would likely be

   "deadly thorn-bearing assault vegetation."

 (Robert Bullock)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 11:39:15 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Howie Brounstein <howieb@TELEPORT.COM>

Subject:      Re: Oregon Grape is not Endangered



At 09:07 AM 9/3/96 -0700, you wrote:

>Howie Brounstein offers some interesting information below however the

>people at the longest operating herbal dispensary in my area insist that

>Oregon grape has been claimed to be endangered. So I am not inclined to

>take Mr. Broustein's substantially worded referemces as proof to his

>claim.



I will repeat that this is rumor! Simply put, no Berberis or Mahonia is

listed as protected by the Dept. of Agriculture or even Natural Heritage

Programs for Oregon, Washington, or California. It is not on the Red or Blue

list in British Columbia. Don't take my 15 plus years of experience in the

field, check it out yourself.



 In Oregon, you can call The Natural Heritage Program at 541-229-5078, or if

you prefer, email Tom Kay at Oregon State University Herbarium at

kayet@BCC.ORST.EDU

He is in charge of population monitering of protected plants.



Also see:

Endangered species homepage: US Federally Protected Lists:

http://www.fws.gov/~r9endspp/endspp.html



Natural Heritage Central Server (global):

http://www.abi.org/



British Columbia Conservation Data Centre

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/cdc/





Perhaps searching these governmental lists will be references enough. These

links will be added to my homepage shortly. I mean no anger with these last

posts .... I just want to to put out these fires before they get away from

me ..... and they seem to be spreading .......



> And I have been advised that there are other herbs with similiar

>medicinal properties to that of Oregon Grape.

>

Yes, certainly. Goldenseal is one, which is not protected yet, but it's

depletion is of great concern to botanists and herbalist alike.



Howie Brounstein

howieb@teleport.com

http://www.teleport.com/~howieb/howie.html



"It's easy to harvest wild plants, the hard part is not harvesting."



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:42:30 -0600

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Michael Moore <hrbmoore@RT66.COM>

Subject:      Re: Unsubscribe?...Oregon Grape



>Howie Brounstein offers some interesting information below however the

>people at the longest operating herbal dispensary in my area insist that

>Oregon grape has been claimed to be endangered. So I am not inclined to

>take Mr. Broustein's substantially worded referemces as proof to his

>claim. And I have been advised that there are other herbs with similiar

>medicinal properties to that of Oregon Grape.

>

>Dan

>



You are simply mistaken, Dan.  Mahonia aquifolia (Oregon Grape) is alive

and well in the FIVE states it grows in, and, in all, it and

interchangeable Mahonia spp. are abundant in TWELVE states and two

provinces.  In fact, only one variety, Kofa Mountain Barberry, is even

threatened, being a marginally seperate variety growing with a few

California Palms up in the Kofa Mountains of SW Arizona.  I guess it got

stranded there after the last ice age and a few botanists feel it might be

a distinct variety.   Other than that the Oregon Grapes are fine, thank

you.



There isn't a SINGLE watershed in the west where at least one species

cannot be found, and nearly evry hill in the deserts (above 4,000 feet) has

some growing on it.  It is a robust genus, too prickly to graze, and quick

to return after clear-cutting.  Further, virtually every town square in the

US has some planted around a courthouse or by some pigeon-loved statue of

some dead forgotten white guy on a horse.



Honestly.







Michael Moore (hrbmoore@rt66.com)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

http://chili.rt66.com/hrbmoore/HOMEPAGE/HomePage.html

All my teaching and clinical manuals, over 1,000 medicinal plant

images and class announcements can be obtained at my web site.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:46:14 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Mark Atkins <skypilot@ALASKA.NET>

Subject:      Unsubscribe Info



Howie,

        To unsubscribe send the message "SIGNOFF HERB" to

LISTSERV@VM.EGE.EDU.TR

        Hope it works!

        Lesse



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:44:46 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Wilson <MWilson780@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds



I just wanted to combat what I do to sort of purify my blood & boost my

immune system  when I need it.  Remember, before anyone jumps on me - that

this is my OPINION, and that this is what works for me.



I use equal parts of Echinacea Angustifolia, Red Clover Tops, Nettles, &

Peppermint.  I have been taught that the Echinacea works as a blood purifier

and immune stimulant (its antibiotic properties are controversial); Red

Clover Tops as a blood purifier, Nettles for a little iron and Peppermint for

the Heart (and taste).  I drink 3 cups of this a day for 7 to 10 days, then

stop for 7 days and resume it.   If I am down ill with something I will stay

on it straight for 2 weeks and then go off for 7 days.



This is what helps me and my family.  It has helped me not bruise as easily

as when I was on 18 aspirin a day (that's what my Rheumatologist had me on

along with Prednisone - Now do you know why I turned to herbs?) Obviously, I

think the blood purifier is correct! :-).   I do feel better when I use this

tea and I do notice it when I do not take it.   I also must confess that I am

a junk food junkee so my diet stinks when I do not behave myself which I am

sure makes me feel worse when I don't drink it. I also do not get sick as

easily as I did before.  I used to pick up every virus that looked my way!



Anyway, just wanted to pass this along.

Allways Herbally Natural (No business reference in this name - just the way I

am)



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:17:45 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Daniel Miller (by way of Warren Kingsley <wk8982@pacbell.net>)"

              <un106@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>

Subject:      Re: Unsubscribe?...Oregon Grape



Howie Brounstein offers some interesting information below however the

people at the longest operating herbal dispensary in my area insist that

Oregon grape has been claimed to be endangered. So I am not inclined to

take Mr. Broustein's substantially worded referemces as proof to his

claim. And I have been advised that there are other herbs with similiar

medicinal properties to that of Oregon Grape.



Dan



On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, Howie Brounstein (by way of Warren Kingsley

<wk8982@pacbell.net>) wrote:



> How do I Unsubscribe?

>

> Warren Kingsley

>

> >Is Oregon Grape endangered?

> >Thanks

> >Joan

>

> One more time, let me all of you, Oregon Grape is NOT endangered. The rumors

> that fly around about it come from herbalists who don't walk around enough,

> or don't understand natural succession . Any botanist from the Pacific

> Northwest would laugh at the idea. Actually being a bridge between the

> herbal (can't identify it properly) and botanical (wouldn't ever eat it or

> use it) worlds, I have gotten laughs about this from the botanists, and

> arguments from very few herbalists.

>

> Berberis nervosa and aquifolium are MAJOR DOMINANT SHRUBS in many areas of

> the Pacific Northwest. They are not listed as rare, sensitive, threatened,

> or endangered by the federal or state agencies. No species of Berberis is

> even on a watch list, or a species of concern list. BERBERIS WILL SURVIVE

> CLEARCUTS! (It will take a few years before it returns strong, perhaps up to

> 15 or 20, but if the soil doesn't blow away, it remains strong after the

> canopy returns)

>

> >If I recall correctly, Michael Moore was saying it is locally endangered in

> >some areas.

> >

> >Paul

> >

> As far as Michael Moore, perhaps you are remembering wrong. He lists it as

> abundant and ok to wildcraft in his Materia Medica (available through his

> homepage). Locally endangered in some  areas? hmm, no.  It is legally

> threatened in NO AREAS, although certainly every plant is rare beyond the

> edge of its range, but wildcrafting ethics would prevent us from harvesting

> from small, remote populations.

>

> It is amazing how tenacious this rumor is. I get email and phone calls about

> this on a regular basis.

>

> >There has been a pile of it in my face all summer and I was about to rip it

> >out by it's little roots but a little voice from this herb list said, "don't

> >you remember something about it possibly being endangered.!"

> >Rather than rip out something sacred, I thought I'd check it out.

> >End of story--I settled for trimming rather than risk mucking up my little

> >ecosystem and we are living together amicably.

> >Joan

> >

> >

>

> Here's some cut and paste from a few months ago on this list. I think I'll

> post the full post on my homepage in the near future:

>

>

> >Oregon Grape Root is Berberis aquifolium (Low land species)

> > or Berberis nervosa (mountain species) in Oregon.

> >Berberis repens grows a bit in Eastern Oregon, but is in

> >small amounts and grows in more fragile ecosystems, so I

> >don't pick it in Oregon ... although in the Rockies it grows in

> >the forest floor in non-fragile ecosystems. In those

> >places it could be harvested ecologically. Mister Moore has

> > said that each Berberis has its own particular specific

> >indications, still there is greatly overlap in their general uses

> > (indications). I use Berberis nervosa because I love

> >where it grows, the forest floor at low to middle elevations

> >in the Cascade Mountain Ranges of Oregon and

> >Washington.

> >

> >Many folks use the name Mahonia instead of Berberis.

> >You'd think by now everyone would agree on one latin

> >name. That's why we have latin names. But this is not the case.

> >I heard that botanical texts use the term Berberis,

> >and horticultural texts use the term Mahonia. Well, if that's the

> >case, than the botanist's Berberis is the real name,

> >because botanists are real scientists and horticulturalists just garden.

> >Or should I say that the true name is

> >Mahonia, because horticulturalists do the real work with plants while

> >botanical folks are removed from reality like

> >most science, working in the herbarium with theories and clean

> >fingernails. This debate is endless, and an Oregon

> >Grape by any name still tastes just as bad as Goldenseal.

> >

> >

> >Berberis nervosa grows from thick horizontal roots (actually

> > underground stems, rhizomes). When I harvest it, I

> >break the top portion with some rhizome, and replant. I do this

> >in the rainy seasons, and the forest duff is like a

> >perfect growing medium for the plants. Doing this for many years I have

> > found that the plants regrow readily,

> >tagged plants showing an amazing ability to take hold and regrow,

> > sometimes feet in one year. The rhizome left in

> >the ground, where the roots snap during the harvest, remain

> >the ground and resprout. Berberis is not in any danger

> >of extinction, and is one of the most common ground covers in its

> >ecosystem. In many places it is the dominant

> >shrub of the forest floor.

> >

> >Berberis nervosa survives clearcuts and partial cuts, and

> >will disappear if you change the amount of moisture in the

> >system, being replaced by Salal (Gaultheria shallon) if the

> >system dries some, Sword Ferns (Polystichum munitum)

> >if the area becomes too wet. Drying sometime occurs from

> >logging, but succession eventually shows that the

> >Berberis returns as the forest canopy returns (less light,

> >more retained moisture). I believe Oregon Grape to be

> >completely ethical to harvest. Certainly, we I would hate to

> >see the world's supply of anything come from one

> >geographic area; this often causes extinction or complete

> >removal of a natural resource. However, if any plant was

> >to replace trees in the Economy of the Pacific Northwest,

> >Proper Oregon Grape Root harvesting would be a prime

> >candidate. Would this massive harvesting be done in an ecological

> > way, or will greed show its ugly face, who can

> >say? There is no place for greed when harvesting plants.

> >

> >

>

>

>

> Howie Brounstein

> howieb@teleport.com

> http://www.teleport.com/~howieb/howie.html

>

> "It's easy to harvest wild plants, the hard part is not harvesting."

>





how sig can it be?



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:53:38 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Daniel Miller <un106@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>

Subject:      Correction re: Oregon Grape



My reponse to Howie Brounstein's post: re: Unsubscribe? was misinformation.



Oregon Grape is not endangered. The herb said to me to be endangered is

Golden Seal. And Howie's claim of Oregon Grapes ability to proliferate is

probably true. Anyway enough with clear cuts in B.C. thank you!



Apparently some attempts are being made to cultivate Golden Seal. The

information I recently received indicates that some sucess has resulted

from this. But this is only into the third year of it's growth. For some

unknown reason the cultivated plant decays in it's fourth year. (A very

good reason for marketers to no stock or sell this herb <<HINT>>.



Alternatives to Golden

Seal's antiseptic

qualities are Bilberry

and of course Oregon

Grape. (note: the visual

display is a problem of

my server)



Sorry for my prior posting.



Dan



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:26:33 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Shea <sheag@OZ.NET>

Subject:      Re: Unsubscribe?...Oregon Grape



----------

> From: Michael Moore <hrbmoore@RT66.COM>



> There isn't a SINGLE watershed in the west where at least one species

> cannot be found, and nearly evry hill in the deserts (above 4,000 feet)

has

> some growing on it.  It is a robust genus, too prickly to graze, and

quick

> to return after clear-cutting.  Further, virtually every town square in

the

> US has some planted around a courthouse or by some pigeon-loved statue of

> some dead forgotten white guy on a horse.



I will add that I just bought some at a local nursery. I think if it were

endangered it would have cost me more than the 5.99 I paid per plant, and

in addition the nursery where I bought it appeared to be overflowing with

it.





Shea



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:53:32 EST

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Regina Roberts <RROBERTS@KSGFIN.HARVARD.EDU>

Organization: Kennedy School of Government

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds/to cook or not to cook?



> >That's just pure bull.  Properly cooked food also contains few enzymes, the

> >fiber is mush.

>

> Physiological nonsense. 'Proper' cooking doesn't affect fiber at all, other

> than to make it pass more easily, by softening its walls.

>

Hi,

I like to cook my food too.  I imagine that the heat "softens" and

opens the cell walls of the plants that I cook making their vitamins

and minerals more readily absorbable.  I don't believe that the heat

desroys the vitamins.

I find that raw food like carrots are good for

cleaning my teeth and my innards as it usually passes though intact.

What vitamins do I get from that?  I like to think that I get more

form Carrot Ginger soup.  Very good during a cold.



By the way, making an alcohol tincture is like cooking the herb, cooking

it in a vinegar.



-Regina



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:35:20 EST

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Regina Roberts <RROBERTS@KSGFIN.HARVARD.EDU>

Organization: Kennedy School of Government

Subject:      Re: Natural stimulant



>

> Subject:       Re: Natural stimulant

> To:            Multiple recipients of list HERB <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>



> Hi,

> Octacosanol(an ingredient of wheat germ oil), kelp tablets,

> an Krebs Cycle intermediaries, all of which can be found

> in a good vitamin shop.



Why not just eat Wheat germ, and cook the seaweed with your food and

I don't know what "Krebs Cycle Intermediatries" are?

-Regina



> Paul

> Paul Culmstock

> Locator Investigations

> P.O. Box 2861

> Estes Park, CO  80517

> 1-970-586-4336

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:01:54 EST

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Regina Roberts <RROBERTS@KSGFIN.HARVARD.EDU>

Organization: Kennedy School of Government

Subject:      Re: Natural stimulant/pill popping



> Unfortunately our North American culture pushes the pill popping, herb

> taking, coffee drinking, overtime, overdrive lifestyle. There is no time to

> sleep, barely time to brush your hair. And we wonder why we're tired, why

> we're sick. If you sleep, eat, and exercise, many health problems disappear.

>



I too am concerned that many people are "BUYING" into herbal remedies

without consulting their bodies or any reference books.  Too many

people have more faith in the promises on the packaging than they do

their own common sense.

Over-the-counter consumerism and the "quick fix"

mentality is not wholistic at all.  Eventhough I am glad that more

people are looking toward "herbal" and "natural" methods of healing,

I see that alot of people are treating herbs as if they are

things like "antiacids" or " aspirin".

I think patience in healing and respect for the plants and ourselves

is part of the quest of healing with herbs.



And for all you people that think you are overweight.  Please don't

kill youself trying to get skinny.  Cut out the junk food, food

with preservatives, and foods in cans first.  Take you time to cook a

delicious meal and eat it slowly too! By the way, I am against

microwaving food too, it cools off just as fast has it cooks .  It is

a timesaving tool I find that I don't need.  Don't mistreat the herbs

by using them for weight loss.  Use then for the vitality that they

give you while you are trying to lose weight.  Use them for the

nutritional aspects.  Seek out the nutritional herbs that you

specifically need.



-Regina



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 11:01:41 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <199609031139.HAA29217@netop3.harvard.edu>



>Hi.  In reply to signs of dehydration:  your heart rate will increase, temp.

>will increase, urination will decrease, skin will lose its turgor, and you

>might feel dizzy upon standing (this is secondary to orthostatic hypotension -

>your body tries to compensate for loss of fluid volume, and therefore you

>become hypotensive with  changes in position).  :-).  Sheila.



Well, that is clinical dehydration, but subclinical dehydration is very,

very common, and the cause of much illness.



One major factor in the rampant occurence of subclinical dehydration is

coffee drinking. Coffee damages the thirst.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 11:10:03 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Unsubscribe?

In-Reply-To:  <3.0b11.32.19960903075843.0069308c@pacbell.net>



>

>How do I unsubscribe?

>

>Warren Kingsley



Already being done for you, I hope. This is the fellow who mailbombed me

this weekend with 25 copies of my own posts, which you redirected to the

server in Eudora so I got bounce notices.



For shame. I hope your modem melts (and your ISP dumps you on your head).



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:33:20 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Michael Tierra's books

In-Reply-To:  <01BB9997.0778F6A0@user-207-69-140-182.dialup.mindspring.com>



>You suggested looking at one of Michael Tierra's books. I've looked at the

>library and they don't have it. Is this a speciality book? Do you have

>suggestions as to where I would find it? Is this something that I can find

>in a bookstore or should I search used book stores?



Tierra's books will not be found in a library, to be sure. Health food

stores that sell books would be the place to look.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:39:28 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Unsubscribe?...Oregon Grape

In-Reply-To:  <v01540b01ae51d5e04751@[198.59.162.167]>



>Further, virtually every town square in the

>US has some planted around a courthouse or by some pigeon-loved statue of

>some dead forgotten white guy on a horse.

>

>Honestly.

>

>

>

>Michael Moore (hrbmoore@rt66.com)



Are dead forgotten white guys endangered?



Sorry to spread rumors.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:00:19 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: no-fruit diet: more results

In-Reply-To:  <199609031546.LAA05096@mail-e2b-service.gnn.com>



>By the fourth week of the no fruit-diet, I began

>rapidly accumulating an alarming number of noticeably ugly and

>sore external and possibly internal bruises, even tho' taking 1500

>mg/day of ascorbic acid,



There is ZERO possibility that this is from a lack of vitamin C due to not

eating fruit. Bruising is a sign of weak Digestion. It needn't have

anything to do with ascorbate levels.



As you will recall, hot flashes are a sign of significant health imbalance.

Merely not eating fruit will not balance the health (or Digestion) of

someone with significant health imbalances in other fields of the body (in

this case, the Liver and Kidneys).



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:42:22 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ellen Gary <bludevil@CRIS.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kombucha Tea



>

>Date:    Mon, 2 Sep 1996 19:36:14 -0700

>From:    Randy Froeba <htcw@GNA.COM>

>Subject: Re: Kombucha Tea - Dawn

>

>Paul Iannone wrote:

>>

>> >Hi

>> >

>> >thisis a silly question but I'll ask it anyway. What signs do you notice

>> >when you are about to be dehydrated???

>> >

>> >

>> >Aggie

>>

>> If you think you MAY be dehydrated, you probably are.

>>

>> Paul-----------------------------------------------------------------------

>Paul,

>This is not an answer!! Your smart, SHOW US!!!

>Us "Common Folk" would like to KNOW!!!!!!!!!!

>

>Randy and Cathy Froeba



I agree.  I have been a subscriber to this list for a short while, enjoying

_most_ of the information sharing.  But Paul, Randy & Cathy (and others)

have a good point.  Since you are obviously knowledgeable, please let that

speak for itself.  Simply share with us.  There is no need to flaunt your

knowledge or condescend to the rest of us.



Speaking for myself, I am here to learn.  Your tone is such that I "tune"

most of your messages out.  How can you possibly help anyone that way?



Ellen



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:12:24 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ellen Gary <bludevil@CRIS.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bilberry



Marcia,



I would also appreciate receiving a copy of your monthly issue featuring

bilberry.



  Ellen Gary

  5 Spring Oak Court

  Greensboro, NC  27410



Thanks in advance.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:23:29 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Sheila J Halper <SJHALPER@BICS.BWH.HARVARD.EDU>



Hi.  In response to signs of dehydration:  heart rate will increase,

temperature will increase, urination will decrease, skin will lose its turgor,

and one might become dizzy upon rising (orthostatic hypertension - the body

will try to compensate for the loss in fluid volume - blood pressure and heart

rate will rise significantly with positional changes).:-).  Sheila.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:15:35 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kombucha Tea

In-Reply-To:  <v01540b03ae52c504dfc7@[206.173.76.35]>



>>> If you think you MAY be dehydrated, you probably are.

>>>

>>> Paul-----------------------------------------------------------------------

>>Paul,

>>This is not an answer!! Your smart, SHOW US!!!

>>Us "Common Folk" would like to KNOW!!!!!!!!!!

>>

>>Randy and Cathy Froeba

>

>I agree.  I have been a subscriber to this list for a short while, enjoying

>_most_ of the information sharing.  But Paul, Randy & Cathy (and others)

>have a good point.  Since you are obviously knowledgeable, please let that

>speak for itself.  Simply share with us.  There is no need to flaunt your

>knowledge or condescend to the rest of us.

>

>Speaking for myself, I am here to learn.  Your tone is such that I "tune"

>most of your messages out.  How can you possibly help anyone that way?

>

>Ellen



Don't whine to me if you can't understand simple answers to questions! Just

because a subject doesn't have a complex answer doesn't mean it is wrong or

that I am being rude. This issue is just that simple: IF you think you

MIGHT be dehydrated, you probably ARE! Go get a glass of water.



No reason to make this more complex than that. Perhaps you are not aware

that studies have shown that most Americans are subclinically dehydrated.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:13:46 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Schi <rouge@EASYNET.CO.UK>

Organization: Original Synergy

Subject:      Hot Flashes & Night Sweats



Paul Iannone wrote:

>

> As you will recall, hot flashes are a sign of significant health

> imbalance. Merely not eating fruit will not balance the health (or

> Digestion) of someone with significant health imbalances in other

> fields of the body (in this case, the Liver and Kidneys).

>

> Paul



As someone who suffers from hot flashes...night sweats in particular...

due to a complete hysterectomy a few years ago, I'd like to know how to

balance myself, or even if it's possible. And yes, I drink coffee and

smoke, and I'm on HRT, which does help somewhat, but not completely.



BB



Schi



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:30:59 +0200

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "K. Raley" <kraley@GNN.COM>

Subject:      Re: no-fruit diet: more results

Comments: To: pi2@LOOP.COM



Paul,



>There is ZERO possibility that this is from a lack of vitamin C

>due to not eating fruit. Bruising is a sign of weak Digestion. It

>needn't have anything to do with ascorbate levels.



OK, then that would explain why it occurred even when I was taking

ascorbic acid.  However, why *would* bruising ensue after

eliminating fruit, sugar, yeast, & alcohol?  What is going on? Is

it your recommendation that I continue with the no-fruit regimen?

The only fruit I have had is 3 glasses of fresh orange juice in

the past 3 days.



>As you will recall, hot flashes are a sign of significant health

>imbalance. Merely not eating fruit will not balance the health

>(or Digestion) of someone with significant health imbalances in

>other fields of the body (in this case, the Liver and Kidneys).



I got that message loud and clear. What I am saying is that the

no-fruit diet certainly seemed to coincide with an increase in hot

flashes. At the very least, it did not seem to promote any

lessening of the flashes.  Rather, what seems to have reduced them

is Susan Weed's method of violet, oatstraw, red clover, black

cohosh, dandelion, yellow dock, and milk thistle seed (the last

three for the liver.)  Flashes come mainly in the 12 hrs of the

PM, and at their peak performance, average about every hour. I am

also trying regular sleep and exercise. Water intake is high. Any

suggestions you have about what to do for the deep causes or for

the surface incidence of these hot flashes will be welcomed

immensely, Paul.



BTW, I tried to find Dan Zhi Xiao Yao San (liver) and Zhi Bai

Dihuang Wan (joints) in this part of the state but have struck out

so far.  One merchant asked if I could substitute Shugan Wan for

the former and Chong Ka Kwan Ki for the latter.  She also had

something for the joints that sounded like "Tangyipian" when she

pronounced it--there were only Chinese symbols on the package. I

purchased neither of these.  Your advice?



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:32:04 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Schi <rouge@EASYNET.CO.UK>

Organization: Original Synergy

Subject:      Re: Kombucha Tea



Paul Iannone wrote:

>

> No reason to make this more complex than that. Perhaps you are not

> aware that studies have shown that most Americans are subclinically

> dehydrated.

>

> Paul



Two things:



1) What do you mean when you say 'subclinically'?



2) What are your credentials? (unrelated to first question)



BB



Schi



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 06:49:36 +0000

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <locator@mail.fortnet.org>

From:         Paul Culmstock <locator@MYMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: no-fruit diet: more results



Hi-

 Capillary fragility is caused by a lack of bioflavonoids. The

bioflavonoids, which can be purchased separately or in compound

with Vit C will restore capillary strength and should help with the

bruising.

Paul Hermes

Paul Culmstock

Locator Investigations

P.O. Box 2861

Estes Park, CO  80517

1-970-586-4336



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:04:58 +0000

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <locator@mail.fortnet.org>

From:         Paul Culmstock <locator@MYMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Natural stimulant



Regina-

  I always recommend the octacosanol because oils tend to

begin to peroxidize the minute that they are extracted and

this is definitely a poison you don't want. If you buy a

oil which has been packed under nitrogen(Spectrum makes

one) then you need not concern yourself too much as long

as you keep it tightly closed and in the refrigerator, but even

then, as soon as you open it and it is exposed to the air, the

peroxidation process begins. You can use marbles to keep the

oil level with the top of the bottle and just about stop this,

but why go thru all this trouble when you can just get the

octacosanol?

Paul

Paul Culmstock

Locator Investigations

P.O. Box 2861

Estes Park, CO  80517

1-970-586-4336



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:07:27 +0000

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <locator@mail.fortnet.org>

From:         Paul Culmstock <locator@MYMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: no-fruit diet: more results



Hi-

 Fruit contains bioflavonoids, which are essential for capillary

strength, hence the bruising. Get a bioflavonoid supplement.

Paul Hermes

Paul Culmstock

Locator Investigations

P.O. Box 2861

Estes Park, CO  80517

1-970-586-4336



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:55:45 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Keith Gauff <keith@CLUSTER.ENGR.SUBR.EDU>

Organization: Engineering Design Center

Subject:      Re: Natural stimulant



Where can you find octacosanol?

Keith



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:40:54 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Keith Gauff <keith@CLUSTER.ENGR.SUBR.EDU>

Organization: Engineering Design Center

Subject:      Re: Bilberry



Ellen Gary wrote:

>

> Marcia,

>

> I would also appreciate receiving a copy of your monthly issue featuring

> bilberry.

>

>   Ellen Gary

>   5 Spring Oak Court

>   Greensboro, NC  27410

>

> Thanks in advance.Please send me a copy as well.

Tracy gauff

1741 saul ave

zachary,la.  70791



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:26:06 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Vic Hlushak <vhlushak@AWINC.COM>

Subject:      asthma



Hi all,



I have asthma and every year I look for some help with it.  It seems to be

allergic in nature as it gets better when I take antihistimines which I

dont like to do. I have tried all the traditional drugs and with the

exception of ventolin nothings does very much.



ideas?





thanks

vic



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:14:57 +0000

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <bjw@rt66.com>

From:         "BriaN J." <bjw@RT66.COM>

Subject:      Tabacco Alternatives



Hello all



Ive just decided to quit smoking after 14 years of smoking, I don't

trust such devices as "the patch" etc.. Is there any herbs out there

that help curb the insane cravings that occur in the 1st stages of

withdrawl?



I know there will be no substitute for tabacco, or quick fix, but i

know i'm gonna need some help here.



any input is greatly appreciated



thanks







--BriaN









*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*="bjw@rt66.com"=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*

*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*

*=--=*=--=*=--=*"PGP Public Key: Finger -l bjw@rt66.com"=--=*=--=*=--=*

*=--=*=--=*=--=*"http://www.rt66.com/~bjw/pgpkey.html"=*=--=*=--=*=--=*

*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:22:57 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats

In-Reply-To:  <322D3A3A.A7A@easynet.co.uk>



>Paul Iannone wrote:

>>

>> As you will recall, hot flashes are a sign of significant health

>> imbalance. Merely not eating fruit will not balance the health (or

>> Digestion) of someone with significant health imbalances in other

>> fields of the body (in this case, the Liver and Kidneys).

>>

>> Paul

>

>As someone who suffers from hot flashes...night sweats in particular...

>due to a complete hysterectomy a few years ago, I'd like to know how to

>balance myself, or even if it's possible. And yes, I drink coffee and

>smoke, and I'm on HRT, which does help somewhat, but not completely.

>

>BB

>

>Schi



Well, you drop the coffee entirely first off. That's non-negociable in this

regard.



Secondly, herbs do exist to replenish the Kidney Yin Essence. The most

effective formula in my experience is Zhi Bai Dihuang Wan, available in

Chinatowns usually spelled Chih Pai Di Huang Wan. You have to take

substantial amounts.



Btw, the hot flashes in most cases don't result from the hysterectomy, but

are rather a continuation of the health imbalances that make such

procedures 'necessary' in the first place.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:29:33 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         John Stankiewicz <radiant@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds/to cook or not to cook?



At 06:53 PM 9/3/96 EST, you wrote:

>Hi,

>I like to cook my food too.  I imagine that the heat "softens" and

>opens the cell walls of the plants that I cook making their vitamins

>and minerals more readily absorbable.  I don't believe that the heat

>desroys the vitamins.

>I find that raw food like carrots are good for

>cleaning my teeth and my innards as it usually passes though intact.

>What vitamins do I get from that?  I like to think that I get more

>form Carrot Ginger soup.  Very good during a cold.

>

>By the way, making an alcohol tincture is like cooking the herb, cooking

>it in a vinegar.

>

It depends on how long you cook.  Also, if you let water come to a boil

first, then throw in the boroccoli, or whatever you're cooking, and let cook

for a few minutes, that would be better than placing the broccoli in cold

water, letting it come to a boil and cooking for a few minutes.  Has to do

with oxidation and free-radical activity.



So cooking may not "destroy" vitamins, but it certainly does destry enzymes,

which reportedly break down near 114 to 118 degrees F.  So in terms of

assimilation, it is best to get as many enzymes into you from foods sources

as you can, since food does sit in the food enzyme portion of the stomach

for between half an hour to an hour at which time the body does not secrete

enzymes so the enzymes must come from the food, and the less there are the

less you will assimilate (of course more digestion occurs in the small

intestine and the pancreas will secrete enzymes for that purpose).



John.







>-Regina

>

>

http://www.radiant-living.com (where we try to avoid premature cognitive

commitments or old paradigms and present new ones!)

The average person has about 65,000 thoughts a day.  What is disconcerting

is that more than 95% of the thoughts are the same ones as the person had

yesterday.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:50:16 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kombucha Tea

In-Reply-To:  <322D3E84.5386@easynet.co.uk>



>Paul Iannone wrote:

>>

>> No reason to make this more complex than that. Perhaps you are not

>> aware that studies have shown that most Americans are subclinically

>> dehydrated.

>>

>> Paul

>

>Two things:

>

>1) What do you mean when you say 'subclinically'?



Subclinically describes conditions that are not recognized clinically. They

are health defects that your ordinary doctor will probably dismiss as

significant, or which cannot be validated with tests.



>2) What are your credentials? (unrelated to first question)

>

>BB

>

>Schi



There are no credentials for what I do, so I have none. Practice and

experience in Chinese healing for over a decade.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:19:43 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Natural stimulant

In-Reply-To:  <322D9871.2928@cluster.engr.subr.edu>



>Where can you find octacosanol?

>Keith



Don't waste your money. Octacosanol is not particularly well validated as a

source of improved energy. The only research I'm aware of in this regard

was in athletes, and there is a rather famous confusion between octacosanol

and dicobalt octacarbonyl that misled the market for quite a while.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:13:16 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: no-fruit diet: more results

In-Reply-To:  <199609041245.GAA10676@linden.fortnet.org>



>Hi-

> Capillary fragility is caused by a lack of bioflavonoids. The

>bioflavonoids, which can be purchased separately or in compound

>with Vit C will restore capillary strength and should help with the

>bruising.

>Paul Hermes

>Paul Culmstock



That is one cause, certainly not the only cause.



Bioflavonoids primarily have this effect due to their 'reenergizing' effect

on reduced vitamin C. Someone with a high level of vitamin C intake

(supplemented) such as in this case, who still has extensive bruising, is

VERY unlikely to see that reversed by the addition of bioflavonoids. In

addition, this person is taking HERBS (violet, oatstraw, red clover, black

cohosh, dandelion, yellow dock, and milk thistle seed, and others), many of

which supply these chemicals.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:21:09 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bilberry

In-Reply-To:  <322D94F6.3FC4@cluster.engr.subr.edu>



>Ellen Gary wrote:

>>

>> Marcia,

>>

>> I would also appreciate receiving a copy of your monthly issue featuring

>> bilberry.

>>

>>   Ellen Gary

>>   5 Spring Oak Court

>>   Greensboro, NC  27410

>>

>> Thanks in advance.Please send me a copy as well.

>Tracy gauff

>1741 saul ave

>zachary,la.  70791



These messages are called 'me-toos' and they are fundamental list faux pas.

DON'T SEND ME-TOOS TO THE LIST!!! Private email to the person making the

offer, please.



This is a major reason why I strongly oppose offers on this list.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:46:39 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: no-fruit diet: more results

In-Reply-To:  <199609041024.GAA14069@mail-e2b-service.gnn.com>



>>There is ZERO possibility that this is from a lack of vitamin C

>>due to not eating fruit. Bruising is a sign of weak Digestion. It

>>needn't have anything to do with ascorbate levels.

>

>OK, then that would explain why it occurred even when I was taking

>ascorbic acid.  However, why *would* bruising ensue after

>eliminating fruit, sugar, yeast, & alcohol?



What's going on is that your Digestion is still weak. The stimulation of

the fruit sugars mask these symptoms, which are your ACTUAL state.



>What is going on? Is

>it your recommendation that I continue with the no-fruit regimen?



Yes indeed.



>The only fruit I have had is 3 glasses of fresh orange juice in

>the past 3 days.



The worst offender in the fruit department!



>>As you will recall, hot flashes are a sign of significant health

>>imbalance. Merely not eating fruit will not balance the health

>>(or Digestion) of someone with significant health imbalances in

>>other fields of the body (in this case, the Liver and Kidneys).

>

>I got that message loud and clear. What I am saying is that the

>no-fruit diet certainly seemed to coincide with an increase in hot

>flashes.



Yes, primarily because of the stimulant aspects of fruit, and its Cooling

effect. But that Cooling effect is only superficial. It doesn't reach the

underlying aspect.



>At the very least, it did not seem to promote any

>lessening of the flashes.



I never suggested that they would lessen. Rather, you strengthen your

Digestion, which does in part address the underlying issues (slows the

downward slide).



>Rather, what seems to have reduced them

>is Susan Weed's method of violet, oatstraw, red clover, black

>cohosh, dandelion, yellow dock, and milk thistle seed (the last

>three for the liver.)



Cooling, Liver-normalizing herbs. A good formula for that part, but not

nourishing to the Kidneys, so a temporary corrective.



>Flashes come mainly in the 12 hrs of the

>PM,



The Yin time of day, which shows that this is due to Yin Depletion.



>and at their peak performance, average about every hour. I am

>also trying regular sleep and exercise. Water intake is high. Any

>suggestions you have about what to do for the deep causes or for

>the surface incidence of these hot flashes will be welcomed

>immensely, Paul.



Keep looking until you find the recommended formulas.



>BTW, I tried to find Dan Zhi Xiao Yao San (liver) and Zhi Bai

>Dihuang Wan (joints) in this part of the state but have struck out

>so far.



They're out there.



> One merchant asked if I could substitute Shugan Wan for

>the former



No, not the same thing at all.



>and Chong Ka Kwan Ki for the latter.



I don't know what that is. That's not a spelling I recognize.



>She also had

>something for the joints that sounded like "Tangyipian" when she

>pronounced it--there were only Chinese symbols on the package. I

>purchased neither of these.  Your advice?



Tong probably ('pain'). Pian means pill. I don't know which formula that

is, but it isn't appropriate, since you don't have a pain syndrome.



There are millions of these products out there, and Chinatown pharmacists

don't know anything about the finepoints of this therapy, in general. My

recommendations are very specific, so don't take substitutes.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:37:42 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Henry & Dawn Krans <hdkrans@NETOPIA.ON.CA>

Subject:      Re: Kombucha Tea - Dawn



Hey Paul..It seems we agree on this anyhow....

Dawn





At 12:20 AM 02/09/96 +0100, you wrote:

>>Hi

>>

>>thisis a silly question but I'll ask it anyway. What signs do you notice

>>when you are about to be dehydrated???

>>

>>

>>Aggie

>

>If you think you MAY be dehydrated, you probably are.

>

>Paul

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:37:38 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Henry & Dawn Krans <hdkrans@NETOPIA.ON.CA>

Subject:      Re: Garcinia cambogia



At 07:21 PM 31/08/96 +0100, you wrote:

>>> I have lost 5 pounds...since this Monday!!!!!!!

>

>>>And you don't even think that losing that much weight with just some pills

>>might be dangerous to you?



>This is a list about the MEDICINAL use of herbs. It is not the place for

>random reports of unexplained changes in health.



Paul...The person who originally posted the question regarding Garcinia

Cambogia asked...I told my personal experience It is all I could offer. I

did not offer it as fact or the answer. Just  what has happened to me.







>Rapid weight loss is fundamentally unhealthy.



I am aware of this. But, I also found it very exciting. Terribly sorry if

you don't understand how this could be. If this product did make it possible

to lose 5 pounds a week, I would not continue to do this. I am aware that

rapid weight loss is unhealthy. But, so is carrying around too much weight

for a long time.





The people on this list who

>know something about healing (as opposed to the hordes who think that

>attitude is more important than factuality) recognize immediately that IF

>gambogia made you lose 5 lbs. of actual tissue weight in five days, then it

>is doing you grave harm.



Again...I would not continue at this rate for an extended period. It was

only the first week and I was gonna see what would happen. I'm pretty sure

losing 5 pounds for one week is not putting me in grave danger.  Secondly,

while you are correct that factuality is more important than attitude, there

are more pleasant/socially acceptable ways to make your point. If you feel

that you need to come across like a horses' p'tootie, then people will not

reap the benefit from your knowledge. You seem very intelligent and you know

of what you speak, but, people do not like being talked down to or

insulted...so, your posts are more apt to be trashed instead of read and

learned from.





 There

>are many, many factors in a week's weight variation.



This is true, but, my weight has been the same to within a pound or two for

almost two years. The only thing I changed that week, was the Garcinia

Cambogia. Like I said..I only offered it as an observation of what happpened

to me when I took it because the question was asked.





Give us a report,

>complete with your disclaimer that you don't sell the stuff, in a month to

>six weeks, averaging your weight loss over that period of time.



#1..I don't owe you anything....even if I were selling it, it is no business

of yours if what I am posting is the truth. #2..if you had read my original

post, you would have seen that I am not selling it, as I did mention how I

discovered the stuff, and that after I started taking it, I looked it up on

the Internet to learn more about it. #3..see #2..( I am researching it and

will continue to)..I also will post a follow up at some point to let anyone

who wants to know, my progress.





And then do

>the research to find out why gambogia is doing this to you.



See #2 and #3.





THEN you might

>have a post that passes muster.



My posts always pass muster.

>

>Paul



Dawn

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:19:48 SLT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Rohan Harindra Wickramasinghe <rohan@ITES.AC.LK>

Organization: Institute for Tropical Environmental Studies

Subject:      a)Spices and b)Ceylonese Herbs



a) SPICES and b) CEYLONESE MEDICINAL HERBS



Hello,



I wrote a message night before last and tried to post it

to the list but it apparently did not succeed as it was

returned to me. I am therefore trying to repost it and do

hope it was not, in fact, posted succesfully last time.

----------------------------------------------------------

Hello,



Several years ago, we published some items relevant to the

use of herbs for medicinal purposes. We would be grateful for

advice as to whether there has been any further work in these

areas of research and also for relevant references. The

references to our work in the two areas in question are given

below.



1. INFLUENCE OF DIETARY SPICES ON RESPONSE TO MEDICATION



   This research reported the observation of a "substrate-

   binding" spectrum of spice constituents with hepatic

   microsomal cytochrome P450 preparations.



   Reference:

   R.H.Wickramasinghe, G.Muller and K.Norpoth, " Spectral

   evidence of interaction of spice constituents with hepatic

   microsomal cytochrome P450",

   CYTOBIOS (Cambridge, England) vol.29 (1980) 25-27



2. COMPARISON OF CEYLONESE AND CHINESE MEDICINAL HERBS



   References:

   1) " Comparison of Chinese and Ceylonese herbs used in

      medications for the treatment of menstrual disorders ",

      Abstracts, 59th Annual Meeting of the Endocrine Society,

      8-10 June 1977 at Chicago, Illinois, abstr.no.577

      (with C.Ponnamperuma)



   2) " Comparison of Chinese and Ceylonese herbs used in the

      treatment of fevers ", Abstracts, 34th Annual National

      Meeting of the American Federation for Clinical Research,

      30 April to 2 May 1977 at Washington, D.C.,

      CLINICAL RESEARCH 25 (1977) 278A (with C.Ponnamperuma)



   3) " Comparison of Chinese and Ceylonese herbs used in the

      treatment of urinary disorders ",

      CLINICAL RESEARCH 25 (1977) 451A (with C.Ponnamperuma)



   4) " Comparison of Chinese and Ceylonese herbs used in

      gastroenterology ", CLINICAL RESEARCH 25 (1977) 575A



   5) " Comparison of Chinese and Ceylonese herbs used in

      dermatology ", CLINICAL RESEARCH 25 (1977) 589A



   6) " Comparison of Chinese and Ceylonese herbs used in

      medications for treating dysentery, microbial infections

      or for antipyretic action ",

      CLINICAL RESEARCH 26 (1978) 14A



   7) " Comparison of Chinese and Ceylonese herbs used in

      medications for pulmonary affections ",

      CLINICAL RESEARCH 26 (1978) 87A



   8) " Comparison of Chinese and Ceylonese herbs used in

      connection with worm infestations ",

      CLINICAL RESEARCH 26 (1978) 101A



   9) " Comparison of Chinese and Ceylonese herbs used in the

      treatment of ophthalmia ",

      CLINICAL RESEARCH 26 (1978) 296A



Thank you very much for your time and for any help you can give.



Rohan H. Wickramasinghe, B.A.(Hons)Cantab., Ph.D.Edinburgh,

Institute for Tropical Environmental Studies,

41 Flower Road,

Colombo 7,

Sri Lanka

(e-mail: rohan@ites.ac.lk)



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:41:40 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Cindy Lee <CindyLee@MINDSPRING.COM>

Subject:      Michael Tierra's books



Attention Paul!



Hi,



You suggested looking at one of Michael Tierra's books. I've looked at the

library and they don't have it. Is this a speciality book? Do you have

suggestions as to where I would find it? Is this something that I can find

in a bookstore or should I search used book stores?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~

from Paul Iannone from herb group:

Why don't you try one of Michael Tierra's books? Planetary Herbology is OK,

not always accurate, but a useful synthesis of Chinese and Western

concepts. Look under the category of 'Adrenal Yang Tonics' in that book.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

><>  <><

     |_

    \__/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Smiles,

Cindy Lee

Zone 8

cindylee@mindspring.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 A rose by any other name would likely be

   "deadly thorn-bearing assault vegetation."

 (Robert Bullock)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:32:18 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kombucha Tea



At 09:50 AM 9/4/96 +0100, you wrote:

>>Paul Iannone wrote:

>>

>>1) What do you mean when you say 'subclinically'?

>

>Subclinically describes conditions that are not recognized clinically. They

>are health defects that your ordinary doctor will probably dismiss as

>significant, or which cannot be validated with tests.

>

>>2) What are your credentials? (unrelated to first question)

>>

>

>There are no credentials for what I do, so I have none. Practice and

>experience in Chinese healing for over a decade.

>

>Paul

>



I have been lurking for a few months, but I feel the need to try to get this

particular discussion on a more positive track.   I agree with the people on

this list about your abrasive attitude, Paul.  If you were a doctor, one

might say your bedside manner needs work. Sometimes, I think you give good

advice, although you never cite references, so it is difficult to follow how

you draw your conclusions. Other times I think you just kiss people off.

There is a Baccalaureate Degree in Natural Health Sciences with a major in

Oriental Medicine obtainable from Bastyr Univerisity here in Seattle, so you

are wrong that there are no credentials.  Dr. Michael Tierra offers a

professional herbalist course including more advanced studies in the

oriental system of diagnoses and treatment.  There is an Oriental Healing

Arts Institute in Long Beach CA headed by Daniel Hsu.  There is the Five

Branches Institute College of Traditional Chinese Medicine in Santa Cruz CA.

Even within the Chinese community, you can apprentice to and receive

certification from a traditional Chinese Herbalist, although it is very

difficult for someone outside that ethnic group to do.  I think what folks

want to know, is what is your experience as well as credential.  I think we

will all agree that there are many ways to gain valuable knowledge about

plants, but you still leave us in the dark as to your background.  I am

including information about myself, and I think this is the kind of stuff

people want to know about you.



 I am an herbalist currently studying for certification as a medicinal

herbalist  with David Hoffman at the California School of Herbal Studies..

I began my interest in herbs as a child learning the uses both culinary and

medicinally while riding our (very British) neighbor's St. Bernard around

her garden; she picking things and popping them into my mouth with elaborate

descriptions about their uses.  Professionally, I gravitated towards the

arts and for some 20 years was an arts administrator with an emphasis on

ethnic, folk and cross-cultural study and programming and during this time I

renewed my interest in herbs by studying and documenting the similarities

and differences of plant usage among varying ethnic and occupational groups.

I have had my own herb garden for 20+ years and have learned plant growing,

harvesting and preparation for medicinal usages, including distilling my own

essential oils, as well as drying, infusions, macerations, tinctures,

ointments, etc.  Three years ago, I decided to take this knowledge and start

my own company, dedicated to better understanding the relationships between

plants and man, and to providing products and tools for self-care and

wellness.  I continue my studies because there is still so much to learn,

and I recognize the importance of credentials, even though some of them are

not recognized in this country, yet.  I have studied with Khalsa, an

Ayurvedic Herbalist, and with Michael Schoals and other Aromatherapists.

I've taken classes from Rosemary Verey, the great English gardner.  These

are some of the influences I have.



Perhaps you could share the same kind of information about yourself and cite

some of your mentors and lamplighters along the way.  I know I would feel

more comfortable with your dominance of this list if I knew who you truly

were..  I have written you privately to obtain more information, and you

have not responded with anything substantial that has satisfied my

curiosity.  Please take the time to give us more information about yourself.

Surely your practice and experience includes others (teachers, books, study

courses) that we might be interested in.  Otherwise, I think we all have the

opinion of an exclusive person dominating an inclusive discussion group.



Thanks,





Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:13:20 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kombucha Tea

Comments: cc: Paul Iannone <pi2@loop.com>



At 09:50 AM 9/4/96 +0100,

>>Paul Iannone wrote:

>>

>>1) What do you mean when you say 'subclinically'?

>

>Subclinically describes conditions that are not recognized clinically. They

>are health defects that your ordinary doctor will probably dismiss as

>significant, or which cannot be validated with tests.

>

>>2) What are your credentials? (unrelated to first question)

>>

>

>There are no credentials for what I do, so I have none. Practice and

>experience in Chinese healing for over a decade.

>

>Paul

>



I have been lurking for a few months, but I feel the need to try to get this

particular discussion on a more positive track.   I agree with the people on

this list about your abrasive attitude, Paul.  If you were a doctor, one

might say your bedside manner needs work. Sometimes, I think you give good

advice, although you never cite references, so it is difficult to follow how

you draw your conclusions. Other times I think you just kiss people off.

There is a Baccalaureate Degree in Natural Health Sciences with a major in

Oriental Medicine obtainable from Bastyr Univerisity here in Seattle, so you

are wrong that there are no credentials.  Dr. Michael Tierra offers a

professional herbalist course including more advanced studies in the

oriental system of diagnoses and treatment.  There is an Oriental Healing

Arts Institute in Long Beach CA headed by Daniel Hsu.  There is the Five

Branches Institute College of Traditional Chinese Medicine in Santa Cruz CA.

Even within the Chinese community, you can apprentice to and receive

certification from a traditional Chinese Herbalist, although it is very

difficult for someone outside that ethnic group to do.  I think what folks

want to know, is what is your experience as well as credential.  I think we

will all agree that there are many ways to gain valuable knowledge about

plants, but you still leave us in the dark as to your background.  I am

including information about myself, and I think this is the kind of stuff

people want to know about you.



 I am an herbalist currently studying for certification as a medicinal

herbalist  with David Hoffman at the California School of Herbal Studies..

I began my interest in herbs as a child learning the uses both culinary and

medicinally while riding our (very British) neighbor's St. Bernard around

her garden; she picking things and popping them into my mouth with elaborate

descriptions about their uses.  Professionally, I gravitated towards the

arts and for some 20 years was an arts administrator with an emphasis on

ethnic, folk and cross-cultural study and programming and during this time I

renewed my interest in herbs by studying and documenting the similarities

and differences of plant usage among varying ethnic and occupational groups.

I have had my own herb garden for 20+ years and have learned plant growing,

harvesting and preparation for medicinal usages, including distilling my own

essential oils, as well as drying, infusions, macerations, tinctures,

ointments, etc.  Three years ago, I decided to take this knowledge and start

my own company, dedicated to better understanding the relationships between

plants and man, and to providing products and tools for self-care and

wellness.  I continue my studies because there is still so much to learn,

and I recognize the importance of credentials, even though some of them are

not recognized in this country, yet.  I have studied with Khalsa, an

Ayurvedic Herbalist, and with Michael Schoals and other Aromatherapists.

I've taken classes from Rosemary Verey, the great English gardner.  These

are some of the influences I have.



Perhaps you could share the same kind of information about yourself and cite

some of your mentors and lamplighters along the way.  I know I would feel

more comfortable with your dominance of this list if I knew who you truly

were..  I have written you privately to obtain more information, and you

have not responded with anything substantial that has satisfied my

curiosity.  Please take the time to give us more information about yourself.

Surely your practice and experience includes others (teachers, books, study

courses) that we might be interested in.  Otherwise, I think we all have the

opinion of an exclusive person dominating an inclusive discussion group.



Thanks,





Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:03:15 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Karen Fite@aol.com" <KarenFite@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds



Paul, you asked what I meant by 'transforming my immune system'.  Prior to

eating a diet high in live foods I did not have frequent colds but I did

suffer from allergies (sinus) and I was run down, low on energy, and had some

digestive disturbances.  After the nutritional change I had what one might

call a detox effect (moved alot of old stuff out of the colon) and I felt

full of energy.  This was all true for my husband, too.  We've continued the

increase in live foods for over a year now and have felt great.



Karen Fite

Tulsa, OK



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:37:36 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Henry & Dawn Krans <hdkrans@NETOPIA.ON.CA>

Subject:      Re: Kombucha Tea - Dawn



Aggie,



I'm very sorry that it took me so long to answer your question...We just

finished a long week-end, and my son started school yesterday...so it has

been hectic.



As per the signs of dehydration...I noticed on the few occasions when I have

let myself get more than a little dehydrated a few signs. Thirst,

obviously....I  felt weak, dizzy...just kind of icky. The one time, when I

ignored all of this I started to get a lower back ache. I asumed I had put

my back out again, so, I just tried to get my back better. But, at this

time, on the Kombucha Mailing List. several people started mentioning a

lower back ache. Dehydration was mentioned as a possibility. So, that day, I

drank loads of water and when I woke up the next morning, my back was 100%

and has been since. My back had really been killing me and I didn't do

anything else to get it better, so, I had to assume that I was dehydrated.



I hope this answers your question.



Love and Life,

Dawn





At 07:30 PM 01/09/96 +0800, you wrote:

>Hi

>

>thisis a silly question but I'll ask it anyway. What signs do you notice

>when you are about to be dehydrated???

>

>

>Aggie

>

>

>

>At 00:54 1/09/96 -0400, you wrote:

>>In a message dated 96-08-31 21:48:37 EDT, you write:

>>

>>>I drink anywhere from 64 - 80 ounces

>>>of water per day..because I drink Kombucha Tea. You need to drink lots of

>>>water when you drink that. I did about a month back get dehydrated for about

>>>a week, because I wasn't drinking enough water. So, I am aware of the signs.

>>

>>Dawn:

>>

>>Does Kombucha Tea act as a diuretic?

>>

>>Thank you,

>>

>>Nina

>>

>The Lord bless you and keep you;

>the Lord make His face shine upon you

>and be gracious to you;

>the lord turn his face towards you

>and give you peace.

>- Numbers 6:24-26 -

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:37:40 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Henry & Dawn Krans <hdkrans@NETOPIA.ON.CA>

Subject:      Re: The mechanism of Garcinia cambogia's action



Paul..Thank you very much for this informative and pleasant to read post.



Dawn





At 07:37 PM 31/08/96 +0100, you wrote:

>The mechanism of Garcinia cambogia's action is yet unknown in its entirety.

>It is known that there is a chemical in the plant, (-)hydroxycitrate, which

>reduces fat synthesis by inhibiting ATP-citrate lyase, an liver enzyme that

>is involved in the liver's conversion of sugars to fats. By inhibiting this

>enzyme, this chemical reduces formation of coenzyme A, a fundamental

>biochemical involved in carbohydrate and fat metabolism in all cells. The

>result is that more sugars are  metabolized, and less triglycerides (and

>LDL) produced. **The long-term results of this sort of tinkering is

>UNKNOWN.**

>

>Brindall berry also reduces appetite AND THEREBY food consumption. As such,

>it can produce a fasting state, with exactly the same downside of dieting

>already fairly well-known. HOW it does this is unknown, but it points to

>possible stimulant aspects of the herb.

>

>One other way to lose weight is to eat less, and therefore have less stool

>in your intestine. This is entirely a transient effect of the first few

>days of fasting. A combination of this, increased sweating due to the

>plant's stimulant effect, and some reduction in fat loading is the probable

>explanation of this weight loss, assuming that the hundreds of potential

>unspoken factors are null.

>

>Paul

>

>(thanks to Dallas Clouatre, PhD for the biochemical clarification, derived

>in part from his book Anti-Fat Nutrients. Dr. Clouatre was at one point

>employed by Country Life vitamins, and is a proponent of this sort of

>herbal therapy).

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 19:31:29 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Nina Kuper <AboveView@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kombucha Tea - Dawn



Dawn:



Do you know if Kombucha Tea acts as a diuretic?



Warm regards,



Nina



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 19:45:32 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         M Riffle <mriffle@TOP.MONAD.NET>

Subject:      Re: Tabacco Alternatives



BriaN J. wrote:

>

> Hello all

>

> Ive just decided to quit smoking after 14 years of smoking, I don't

> trust such devices as "the patch" etc.. Is there any herbs out there

> that help curb the insane cravings that occur in the 1st stages of

> withdrawl?

>

> I know there will be no substitute for tabacco, or quick fix, but i

> know i'm gonna need some help here.

>

> any input is greatly appreciated

>

> thanks

>

> --BriaN

>

>Hi,



I am afraid to offer any advice on this mail list as the tone here is

not very Friendly.  BUT I believe that an herbalist is suppose to help

anyone that they can, their job is to rely information and knowledge and

let the person decide what they want to do.  To work with anyone you

must start at their level, whether beginning or experianced. The plant

world is so large that there are many answers and options available to

anyone who is willing to be open.  Plants speak to those who are open

and willing to learn.  We are all students of the green world and we

should never forget this or think that all our "schooling" or experiance

makes us the ultimate expert.  By sharing our knowledge, we all learn

and experiance wonderful things together.



My "real world" creditials include:  A masters degree in Environmental

Studies, (lots of plant classes).  I am a Master Gardener for the State

of New Hampshire, I am the instructor in herbalism and medicinal use of

plants.  I have apprenticed with Jane Smolnak at Crystal Herb Gardens in

Vermont ( Medicial herbs).  I am finishing my studies with Rosemary

Gladstar.  I have taken classes with Susan Weed and many other

herbalists.  I have been interested in herbs since I was a kid, studing

with my grandmother.  I have had my own gardens since childhood and

spent lots of time in the woods on our farm.  Since childhood I have

grown and used plants inclusing herbs, constantly adding to my plants,

knowledge and abilities.  I prepare teas, tinctures, infusions, pills,

lotions etc for use.  Herbs are a big part of my everyday use.  My last

herbal garden was recognized as a Backyard Habitat and included marked

plants, paths and a water garden.  I am currently learning and making

flower essence, essential oils  and aromotherapy.

I am doing an apprenticeship with Ross Jennings, the Earthwright, on

Sense of Place work , using the gardens, plants and nature to help

people connect to and heal the earth and themselves.



Now the quit smoking question.......

I am not a doctor and this suggestion is not to replace any medical

advice.

  You may want to try a infusion or tincture of Lobellia,  this herb has

been used to quit smoking, it is sometimes referred to as the Indian

Tabacco.   I have never tried it for this purpose, but was taught that

it can help.  It is a respritory herb that is referred to by David

Hoffman  in his book, The New Holistic Healer as , "a holistic

combination of stimulation and relaxation".



To make an infusion pour a cup of boiling water onto 1/4-1/2 teaspoons

of the dried leaves and let steep for 10-15 minutes.  It is suggested

you drink this 3 times a day.







Green blessings,

MagickKeeper



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:20:06 PST

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Charity L Hagen <crzy4birds@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Another herb of the month!



I would be very interested to know where to get a copy of Natural Healing

With Herbs.  If anyone knows please tell me.  Thanks!

Charity Hagen

crzy4birds@juno.com



On Mon, 2 Sep 1996 20:04:35 -0400 Plant World Today

<richier@INTREPID.NET> writes:

>I have read this book and find it very useful and recommend it to

>others!

>

>>Dear people on this list,

>>     First I just want to thank all of you for your words of

>encouragement

>>with my first post about Bilberry.  You all are right, it sure did

>bring up a

>>lot of information and topic.

>>

>>     I am preparing for my next newsletter and even though I am

>almost afraid

>>to post this I thought I would see what you think about my next

>choice.  It

>>is going to be Ginger.  I tried this month to pick a

>non-controversial one

>>but one that is very therapeutic and safe.  I also have a recipe I

>found in a

>>magazine for a ginger liniment and a frothy ginger julius smoothe!

>>

>>     Anyway, what I was wondering is what everyone thinks of the book

>>"Natural Healing with Herbs" by Humbart Santillo, N.D.  Now remember,

>be nice

>>but be honest.  My skin is a little tougher this time. :-)   This is

>my

>>favorite book of all my library and the one that has helped me the

>most.  It

>>covers many many herbs and their medicinal uses and how to use them

>in the

>>front half, then in the back half it covers ailments.   Now, as with

>all

>>books I have found things in it I do not agree with, but I would just

>like a

>>general overview from you if it isn't asking too much.  And Paul,

>since you

>>did not like the other two books I have I am really interested in

>knowing

>>what you think about this one.  Honestly.

>>

>>     And just for the record, I do not sell any of Murrays products

>in any

>>way shape or form.  In fact, I really do not sell much of anything

>except an

>>occasional bottle of herbs from Frontier Herbs. I mostly buy for

>myself.  So

>>I really am not out to promote anyone elses product.

>>

>>Allways Herbally Natural,

>>Marcia

>>

>>

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:36:27 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Garcinia cambogia

In-Reply-To:  <19960904183735069.AAB271@hyper-froozle.netopia.net>



>At 07:21 PM 31/08/96 +0100, you wrote:

>>>> I have lost 5 pounds...since this Monday!!!!!!!

>>

>>>>And you don't even think that losing that much weight with just some pills

>>>might be dangerous to you?

>

>>This is a list about the MEDICINAL use of herbs. It is not the place for

>>random reports of unexplained changes in health.

>

>Paul...The person who originally posted the question regarding Garcinia

>Cambogia asked...I told my personal experience It is all I could offer. I

>did not offer it as fact or the answer. Just  what has happened to me.



The report of sudden weight loss makes all of us think that YOU'RE in need

of medicine!



>>Rapid weight loss is fundamentally unhealthy.

>

>I am aware of this. But, I also found it very exciting. Terribly sorry if

>you don't understand how this could be.



The difference between excitement and hype is paper thin. I responded as I

did to defray the idea that this is something to BE excited about. You may

not be aware of it, but losing 1 pound per day, as you did, is the

equivalent of doing a water fast (NO calories). It is what starving does to

you.



>If this product did make it possible

>to lose 5 pounds a week, I would not continue to do this. I am aware that

>rapid weight loss is unhealthy. But, so is carrying around too much weight

>for a long time.



The point is that you DIDN'T lose five pounds of real weight anyhow.



>The people on this list who

>>know something about healing (as opposed to the hordes who think that

>>attitude is more important than factuality) recognize immediately that IF

>>gambogia made you lose 5 lbs. of actual tissue weight in five days, then it

>>is doing you grave harm.

>

>Again...I would not continue at this rate for an extended period. It was

>only the first week and I was gonna see what would happen. I'm pretty sure

>losing 5 pounds for one week is not putting me in grave danger.  Secondly,

>while you are correct that factuality is more important than attitude, there

>are more pleasant/socially acceptable ways to make your point. If you feel

>that you need to come across like a horses' p'tootie, then people will not

>reap the benefit from your knowledge. You seem very intelligent and you know

>of what you speak, but, people do not like being talked down to or

>insulted...so, your posts are more apt to be trashed instead of read and

>learned from.



They're free...do with them what you like. I don't do windows.



> There

>>are many, many factors in a week's weight variation.

>

>This is true, but, my weight has been the same to within a pound or two for

>almost two years. The only thing I changed that week, was the Garcinia

>Cambogia. Like I said..I only offered it as an observation of what happpened

>to me when I took it because the question was asked.



Take a diuretic and you'll lose five pounds. Sweat in a heat wave and you

can lose five pounds. Take a mild laxative and lose a few pounds

temporarily. Stand on the average bathroom scale and have NO idea how much

you're gaining and losing (very inaccurate in general).



The simple fact is that a short-term report is near worthless, and fiddling

with your liver enzymes is dangerous business.



>Give us a report,

>>complete with your disclaimer that you don't sell the stuff, in a month to

>>six weeks, averaging your weight loss over that period of time.

>

>#1..I don't owe you anything....even if I were selling it, it is no business

>of yours if what I am posting is the truth.



On the contrary. If you SELL it, you are required by the rules of rational

discourse to disclose this fact. If you don't, you deserve the hounding you

get when it comes out.



#2..if you had read my original

>post, you would have seen that I am not selling it, as I did mention how I

>discovered the stuff, and that after I started taking it, I looked it up on

>the Internet to learn more about it.



Good, glad it isn't hype motivated by money concerns. It is still hype, though.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:41:01 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds

In-Reply-To:  <960904170252_471777887@emout10.mail.aol.com>



>Paul, you asked what I meant by 'transforming my immune system'.  Prior to

>eating a diet high in live foods I did not have frequent colds but I did

>suffer from allergies (sinus) and I was run down, low on energy, and had some

>digestive disturbances.  After the nutritional change I had what one might

>call a detox effect (moved alot of old stuff out of the colon) and I felt

>full of energy.  This was all true for my husband, too.  We've continued the

>increase in live foods for over a year now and have felt great.

>

>Karen Fite

>Tulsa, OK



The inevitable longterm effect of such diets in people of moderate vitality

is decline. While such diets are cleansing in the short run, they deplete

Digestion, especially if they involve high fruit consumption.



People of high vitality can eat anything they please. But the health

aspects of the so-called live foods diet are exagerated by such people, who

mistake themselves for exemplars. Most people develop illness if they

overconsume raw food over the long run.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:50:37 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kombucha Tea - Dawn

In-Reply-To:  <960904192939_471883292@emout13.mail.aol.com>



>Dawn:

>

>Do you know if Kombucha Tea acts as a diuretic?

>

>Warm regards,

>

>Nina



Kombucha is specifically off-topic to this list---however, vinegar is

diuretic, and so is kombucha, which is essentially a mild vinegar.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:14:21 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Cathy Herring <JHerrfam@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bilberry



I would also like a copy too!  I am also interested in any help about herbs

in general.  I have cancer and am looking for help to beat it down.





Cathy Herring

1023 Janet Street

Ypsilanti,  MI  48198



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 21:17:03 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Keith Gauff <keith@CLUSTER.ENGR.SUBR.EDU>

Organization: Engineering Design Center

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds



Karen Fite@aol.com wrote:

>

> Paul, you asked what I meant by 'transforming my immune system'.  Prior to

> eating a diet high in live foods I did not have frequent colds but I did

> suffer from allergies (sinus) and I was run down, low on energy, and had some

> digestive disturbances.  After the nutritional change I had what one might

> call a detox effect (moved alot of old stuff out of the colon) and I felt

> full of energy.  This was all true for my husband, too.  We've continued the

> increase in live foods for over a year now and have felt great.

>

> Karen Fite

> Tulsa, OK



What do you mean Live foods?

Tracy



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:37:41 +0200

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

Comments:     RFC822 error: <W> DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was

              retained.

Comments:     RFC822 error: <W> TO field duplicated. Last occurrence was

              retained.

From:         MS MITZI A MICELI <UGFP21A@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject:      Qi Si Fi Mi



Paul,

        Maybe I have been staring into the computer for to long but when Randy

said

        What herbs should be used? Qi-Si-Fi or Mi?      Randy



Do you think he meant Crucify Me!!!



                        Its' not doing the things that we like to do,

Mitzi Miceli            but, liking the things that we have to do,

ugfp21a@prodigy.com     that make life blessed! unk



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:24:01 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Tom Blake <TomBlake1@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Tabacco Alternatives



In a message dated 96-09-04 13:48:16 EDT, you write:



> Is there any herbs out there

>  that help curb the insane cravings that occur in the 1st stages of

>  withdrawl?

>

>  I know there will be no substitute for tabacco, or quick fix, but i

>  know i'm gonna need some help here.

>

Hi Brian there is an herbal formula called ease off.  It contains Arnica,

Catnip, Chamomile & Indian Tobacco.  It is used to break addictions-alcohol,

caffine, overeating, Cigarettes, Drugs of all kinds, Sugar.  10-20 drops on

tongue repeat as necessary when in distress.



It is very true when you say it is not going to be a quick fix.  After all

your addiction did not happen overnight.

If you or anyone is interested please email me privately at

tomblake@ix.netcom.com



To Your Health Naturally,



Tom



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:38:36 +0200

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "K. Raley" <kraley@GNN.COM>

Subject:      Re: no-fruit diet: more results



Paul,



Thank you for your correspondence and additional information on

the bruising and no-fruit diet.



Karen



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:40:48 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Nina Kuper <AboveView@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Tabacco Alternatives



In a message dated 96-09-04 23:25:13 EDT, you write:



>herbal formula called ease off.  It contains Arnica,

>Catnip, Chamomile & Indian Tobacco.  It is used to break addictions-alcohol,

>caffine, overeating, Cigarettes, Drugs of all kinds, Sugar.  10-20 drops on

>tongue repeat as necessary when in distress.

>

>



Tom:



Who makes this formula and where can it be purchased? Is this a Bach Flower

Remedy?



Thank you,



Nina



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:35:50 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Schi <rouge@EASYNET.CO.UK>

Organization: Original Synergy

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats



Paul Iannone wrote:

>

>

> Well, you drop the coffee entirely first off. That's non-negociable

> in this regard.

>

> Secondly, herbs do exist to replenish the Kidney Yin Essence. The most

> effective formula in my experience is Zhi Bai Dihuang Wan, available

> in Chinatowns usually spelled Chih Pai Di Huang Wan. You have to take

> substantial amounts.

>

> Btw, the hot flashes in most cases don't result from the hysterectomy,

> but are rather a continuation of the health imbalances that make such

> procedures 'necessary' in the first place.

>

> Paul



I don't know what Kidney Yin Essence is...it's meaningless to me as I

have no experience with Oriental herbalism. And I prefer to know what

I'm taking and why rather than purchasing formulas with blurbs on the

side, especially when written in Chinese. What is in this stuff, what

will it do for me, and why will it do it?



As for the hot flashes being a continuation of a health imbalance,

that's not the case here. The hysterectomy was unnecessary surgery,

which I will live with forever. Hot flashes are caused by the lack of

hormones in my body which were previously being manufactured by my

reproductive system, which is now gone. HRT is designed to replace those

hormones, but is less than a perfect solution. Prior to the hysterectomy

I had no hormonal imbalance, so it's *not* an existing imbalance. What I

would *like* to know, in plain English, is if there is a herbal remedy

for this.



And dropping coffee is most certainly negotiable, since I drank it

before the hysterectomy...again, I need more information if I'm to

accept this advice.



BB



Schi



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:30:02 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats

In-Reply-To:  <322E82D6.30D4@easynet.co.uk>



>Paul Iannone wrote:

>>

>>

>> Well, you drop the coffee entirely first off. That's non-negociable

>> in this regard.

>>

>> Secondly, herbs do exist to replenish the Kidney Yin Essence. The most

>> effective formula in my experience is Zhi Bai Dihuang Wan, available

>> in Chinatowns usually spelled Chih Pai Di Huang Wan. You have to take

>> substantial amounts.

>>

>> Btw, the hot flashes in most cases don't result from the hysterectomy,

>> but are rather a continuation of the health imbalances that make such

>> procedures 'necessary' in the first place.

>>

>> Paul

>

>I don't know what Kidney Yin Essence is...it's meaningless to me as I

>have no experience with Oriental herbalism. And I prefer to know what

>I'm taking and why rather than purchasing formulas with blurbs on the

>side, especially when written in Chinese. What is in this stuff, what

>will it do for me, and why will it do it?

>

>As for the hot flashes being a continuation of a health imbalance,

>that's not the case here. The hysterectomy was unnecessary surgery,

>which I will live with forever. Hot flashes are caused by the lack of

>hormones in my body which were previously being manufactured by my

>reproductive system, which is now gone. HRT is designed to replace those

>hormones, but is less than a perfect solution. Prior to the hysterectomy

>I had no hormonal imbalance, so it's *not* an existing imbalance. What I

>would *like* to know, in plain English, is if there is a herbal remedy

>for this.

>

>And dropping coffee is most certainly negotiable, since I drank it

>before the hysterectomy...again, I need more information if I'm to

>accept this advice.

>

>BB

>

>Schi



Suit yourself. I can go into the herbalism, the concepts, etc., but the

coffee is non-negociable if you want your complaints to resolve.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:03:00 -0600

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Michelle I. Cook" <m.i.cook@LARC.NASA.GOV>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds

In-Reply-To:  <960904170252_471777887@emout10.mail.aol.com>



>Paul, you asked what I meant by 'transforming my immune system'.  Prior to

>eating a diet high in live foods I did not have frequent colds but I did

>suffer from allergies (sinus) and I was run down, low on energy, and had some

>digestive disturbances.  After the nutritional change I had what one might

>call a detox effect (moved alot of old stuff out of the colon) and I felt

>full of energy.  This was all true for my husband, too.  We've continued the

>increase in live foods for over a year now and have felt great.

>

>Karen Fite

>Tulsa, OK







Karen,

When you say "live" foods are you referring to plant food, vegetables?



Michelle



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:58:45 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Schi <rouge@EASYNET.CO.UK>

Organization: Original Synergy

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats



Paul Iannone wrote:

>

> Suit yourself. I can go into the herbalism, the concepts, etc., but

> the coffee is non-negociable if you want your complaints to resolve.

>

> Paul



Odd that out of my entire post, you chose this one thing to latch onto,

and still not offered reasons why I have to give up coffee. If you

expect me to take you and your advice seriously, I'm afraid you're going

to have to respond a bit more fully than this. Until you do, your

recommendations will mean nothing to me...so, yes, I guess I'll 'suit

myself' then.



Thanks anyway...I should've know better than to ask.



BB



Schi



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:07:47 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Kendall, Timmy L." <KENDALLTL@PHIBRED.COM>

Subject:      Paul's lack of credentials



Marcia;



I loved your post.



Tim



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:07:52 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Tabacco Alternatives

In-Reply-To:  <960904224843_516156848@emout17.mail.aol.com>



>In a message dated 96-09-04 13:48:16 EDT, you write:

>

>> Is there any herbs out there

>>  that help curb the insane cravings that occur in the 1st stages of

>>  withdrawl?

>>

>>  I know there will be no substitute for tabacco, or quick fix, but i

>>  know i'm gonna need some help here.

>>

>Hi Brian there is an herbal formula called ease off.  It contains Arnica,

>Catnip, Chamomile & Indian Tobacco.  It is used to break addictions-alcohol,

>caffine, overeating, Cigarettes, Drugs of all kinds, Sugar.  10-20 drops on

>tongue repeat as necessary when in distress.

>

>It is very true when you say it is not going to be a quick fix.  After all

>your addiction did not happen overnight.

>If you or anyone is interested please email me privately at

>tomblake@ix.netcom.com

>

>To Your Health Naturally,

>

>Tom



Don't advertise on the list. There is ZERO reason why you could't simply

give out this formula and take nothing for it!



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:57:42 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Nan Magill <nanmag@CSINET.NET>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds/to cook or not to cook?



------ =_NextPart_000_01BB9B21.FAB7DBC0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Regina,  Will you please post your recipe for carrot ginger soup for us all?  Thanks.  Nan



----------

From:   Regina Roberts[SMTP:RROBERTS@KSGFIN.HARVARD.EDU]

Sent:   Tuesday, September 03, 1996 6:53 PM

To:     Multiple recipients of list HERB

Subject:        Re: Frequent colds/to cook or not to cook?



> >That's just pure bull.  Properly cooked food also contains few enzymes, the

> >fiber is mush.

>

> Physiological nonsense. 'Proper' cooking doesn't affect fiber at all, other

> than to make it pass more easily, by softening its walls.

>

Hi,

I like to cook my food too.  I imagine that the heat "softens" and

opens the cell walls of the plants that I cook making their vitamins

and minerals more readily absorbable.  I don't believe that the heat

desroys the vitamins.

I find that raw food like carrots are good for

cleaning my teeth and my innards as it usually passes though intact.

What vitamins do I get from that?  I like to think that I get more

form Carrot Ginger soup.  Very good during a cold.



By the way, making an alcohol tincture is like cooking the herb, cooking

it in a vinegar.



-Regina





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------ =_NextPart_000_01BB9B21.FAB7DBC0--



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:22:07 +0000

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <bjw@rt66.com>

From:         "BriaN J." <bjw@RT66.COM>

Subject:      Re: Tabacco Alternatives



Thanks all for your input, on and off the list. I'm gonna try the

Lobelia and a few other herb's.



thank you so much, you ppl are way cool





--BriaN









*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*="bjw@rt66.com"=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*

*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*

*=--=*=--=*=--=*"PGP Public Key: Finger -l bjw@rt66.com"=--=*=--=*=--=*

*=--=*=--=*=--=*"http://www.rt66.com/~bjw/pgpkey.html"=*=--=*=--=*=--=*

*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:19:03 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Mahle Family <mahle@PTIALASKA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Tabacco Alternatives



------ =_NextPart_000_01BB9B0B.4C2EC660

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



I'm confused! I thought Tom was offering a remedy and that if we had any =

questions or needed other advice to contact him personally? What is he =

advertising? Sarena



----------

From:   Paul Iannone[SMTP:pi2@LOOP.COM]

Sent:   Wednesday, September 04, 1996 11:07 PM

To:     Multiple recipients of list HERB

Subject:        Re: Tabacco Alternatives



>In a message dated 96-09-04 13:48:16 EDT, you write:

>

>> Is there any herbs out there

>>  that help curb the insane cravings that occur in the 1st stages of

>>  withdrawl?

>>

>>  I know there will be no substitute for tabacco, or quick fix, but i

>>  know i'm gonna need some help here.

>>

>Hi Brian there is an herbal formula called ease off.  It contains =

Arnica,

>Catnip, Chamomile & Indian Tobacco.  It is used to break =

addictions-alcohol,

>caffine, overeating, Cigarettes, Drugs of all kinds, Sugar.  10-20 =

drops on

>tongue repeat as necessary when in distress.

>

>It is very true when you say it is not going to be a quick fix.  After =

all

>your addiction did not happen overnight.

>If you or anyone is interested please email me privately at

>tomblake@ix.netcom.com

>

>To Your Health Naturally,

>

>Tom



Don't advertise on the list. There is ZERO reason why you could't simply

give out this formula and take nothing for it!



Paul







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m7sBQAAIMIBZ5wZOm7sBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAADT/w==



------ =_NextPart_000_01BB9B0B.4C2EC660--



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:06:48 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Paul's lack of credentials

In-Reply-To:  <c=US%a=_%p=PHIBRED%l=ZEUS-960905130747Z-10417@zeus.phibred.com>



Per the subject line, there are no credentials in my field. You prefer to

confuse training or education or aptitude with accreditation. Then again,

the conventional society is fascinated with degrees and diplomas, as if the

evidence that they do NOT qualify a healer is not overwhelming. Look around.



Healing is spirit-chosen work. Being an 'herbalist' is not necessarily

being a healer. Herbs are a tool, but they cannot be understood unless you

understand healing. I am proud to be a healer, but I don't consider myself

a 'master' herbalist or anything of the sort, relying on the greatness of

past herbalists for their genius in formulating specific solutions to

specific patterns of imbalance. I don't doubt that certain Western

herbalists can achieve the same results using a GREAT deal of

sophistication and hands-on experience---I applaud them! But I stand on the

shoulders of giants, and freely admit it.



I know what I do very well, but that doesn't mean that it can be explained

on a postage stamp to the whim of someone who can't be bothered to do basic

research, or who thinks that healing is a matter of paying money to a

healer. Nor does it mean that if I memorized a million formulas I would

become a better healer. I know what I use, and I know that most people are

sick to a great degree because they haven't taken responsibility for their

behavior, whether through ignorance or stubborness. In this regard, I am

like a Native American healer who can heal almost anything with pitch pine,

comfrey, clay, and sweats. The great psychologist/physician Nicolls, one of

Gurdjieff's students, wrote in his journal that in his stay in India he

realized that the illnesses he faced were best treated with the

basics...opium, quinine, and salts. Of course, that is what the ordinary

doctors did, but they botched it. It takes great skill to apply simple

means and cure.



The teaching in TCM schools, on the other hand, is focussed on some

pencil-pushers' misplaced idea of breadth. You learn tons of formulas for

diseases like advanced hepatitis that you will never use, memorize every

one of 365 point positions even though no one ever uses more than fifty in

a lifetime of practice? Why? It is because TCM is a hospital tradition,

concerned about status, about pecking order, not about healing and then

disappearing into the mist at the edge of town. People want 'credentials'

because their intuition of what healing is has become so dim they need

someone in apparent authority to wave a censor over the pews. But acolytes

are not priests even if they wear the cloth, and healers aren't the ones

whose walls smell the most of myrhh. Healers are the ones who tell you the

hard truth that makes you free.



My most important work, asides from restoring basic lifestyle intelligence

in my clients and Draining/Supplementing their Organs with herbs, is

Clearing their Channels though a quite painful form of acupressure that

goes straight to the point. There aren't, and will never be, credentials

for that work...it is spirit-taught. I see the flow of Qi in people's

bodies, and can adjust it directly. How did I learn this? By reading a

book? By scraping after a teacher for decades begging their secrets? NO, it

just fell on me to know what is energetically wrong in a person's body, and

to devise schemes for correcting that flow. Quite obviously, I cannot

demonstrate this on the internet, so I almost never talk about it. But it

is quite a different thing to see Qi and innately understand its flow, than

to bring out a piece of string and demonstrate to a Board of nincompoops

that you can measure where you were told, according to the credential you

seek, where the point should be.



People graduate acupuncture school with their petty little diplomas, and

then go begging to the State for a licence to practice something they

really don't understand at all. They literally couldn't hit an acupressure

Channel blindfolded. They have NO idea what Qi is. In the old days, if you

wanted to be an acupuncturist of great power, you studied martial arts for

even as much as thirty years before you understood what it was to needle.

Now, Americans spend MONEY, get an education that is mostly worthless, and

ruin their health doing it, and then get a licence from a society that has

even less conception of healing than they. Weehaw! Then they hang their

walls with scrip and pictures of some dead healer, and proceed to divide

the masses from their funds.



What is the value of such certification? NOTHING. What is the value of a

man? You can all spin around that drain if you want to. It's like asking

your grandfather what right he has to spit on the porch.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:26:37 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats

In-Reply-To:  <322EB265.6881@easynet.co.uk>



>Paul Iannone wrote:

>>

>> Suit yourself. I can go into the herbalism, the concepts, etc., but

>> the coffee is non-negociable if you want your complaints to resolve.

>>

>> Paul

>

>Odd that out of my entire post, you chose this one thing to latch onto,

>and still not offered reasons why I have to give up coffee. If you

>expect me to take you and your advice seriously, I'm afraid you're going

>to have to respond a bit more fully than this. Until you do, your

>recommendations will mean nothing to me...so, yes, I guess I'll 'suit

>myself' then.

>

>Thanks anyway...I should've know better than to ask.

>

>BB

>

>Schi



Odd that you would defend your consumption of CNS stimulants when you have

night sweats and are well aware that you have a hormonal imbalance.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:52:01 PST

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Charity L Hagen <crzy4birds@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      yucca root



Hello,

Does anyone know about the medicinal properties of yucca root?  We were

in an herb store and the lady there recommended it for the pain in my

husband's knees.  Does anyone know anything else that would help my

husband's knees?

Charity Hagen

crzy4birds@juno.com



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:54:50 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats



At 08:35 AM 9/5/96 +0100, you wrote:

>Paul Iannone wrote:

>>

>>

>> Well, you drop the coffee entirely first off. That's non-negociable

>> in this regard.

>

>> Paul

>

>

>As for the hot flashes being a continuation of a health imbalance,

>that's not the case here. The hysterectomy was unnecessary surgery,

>which I will live with forever. Hot flashes are caused by the lack of

>hormones in my body which were previously being manufactured by my

>reproductive system, which is now gone. HRT is designed to replace those

>hormones, but is less than a perfect solution. Prior to the hysterectomy

>I had no hormonal imbalance, so it's *not* an existing imbalance. What I

>would *like* to know, in plain English, is if there is a herbal remedy

>for this.

>

>And dropping coffee is most certainly negotiable, since I drank it

>before the hysterectomy...again, I need more information if I'm to

>accept this advice.

>

>BB

>

>Schi

>

I was a coffee (double latte) addict for years and the excessive caffeine

caused a thinning of my uterine wall, which resulted in mennoragia

(excessive bleeding with periods) and many complications during menopause.

I have to agree with Paul about the coffee.  Ditch it.  I take a homeopathic

remedy, Phyto B, for HRT, and I do better with it than synthetic HRT.  I

believe the primary ingredient is Wild Yam, which is much touted these days.

If you would like more information about this product, let me know.



Regards,



Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 14:26:00 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Karen Fite@aol.com" <KarenFite@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds



Tracy, by live foods I just mean raw veggies and fruits (as opposed to dead

cow or overcooked til wilted veggies).



Paul,  all I can say is that I guess time will tell.  For over a year we have

felt great eating this way.  When we occasionally have a day where we eat

otherwise we don't feel well.



Karen Fite

Tulsa, OK



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:14:44 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Tabacco Alternatives



At 10:14 AM 9/4/96 +0000, you wrote:

>Hello all

>

>Ive just decided to quit smoking after 14 years of smoking, I don't

>trust such devices as "the patch" etc.. Is there any herbs out there

>that help curb the insane cravings that occur in the 1st stages of

>withdrawl?

>

>I know there will be no substitute for tabacco, or quick fix, but i

>know i'm gonna need some help here.

>

>any input is greatly appreciated

>

>thanks

>

>

>

>--BriaN

>

Hi Brian,



You might investigate the Flower Remedies or Flower Essences which seem to

interact with and influence the body's energy field in remarkable ways.

Each person's whole energy system - aura, subtle bodies, chakras and

meridians - form a personal blueprint, quite unique.  This energy pattern

holds within it characteristics that endow us with the potential to be as

perfect.  Cigarette smoke contains a cocktail of noxious chemical substances

that cause the energy system significant harm.  Smoke clouds and weakens the

subtle anatomy, surrounding it with a fog which dulls and discolours the

normally bright vibrant hues of the aura.  It also prevents the aura from

cleansing itself.  The etheric body is particularly affected by this grey

mucus which undermines the body's first line of defence.  Some Flower

Essences to consider:



        Addictions (symptons):  Morning Glory (sold by Flower Essence

Society, California Research Essences, Himalayan Aditi Flower Essences and

Himilayan Flower Enhanceers); Hedgehog Cactus (Desert Alchemy Flower

Essences); Nootka Rose, Forsythia (Pacific Essences>)

        Addictions (withdrawal)  Morning Glory (sold by Andreas Korte

Essences); Rose Damacea, Skullcap (California Research Essences); Angenlica,

Nicotiana (Flower Essence Society); Anti-Addiction Remedy (Himalayan Aditi

Flower Essences)



Herbally, you might nourish your nervous system with one of the Nervine

Tonics.  One of the best and certainly the most widely applicable remedy to

feed nervous tissue is Oats, which can be taken in the form of tinctures, or

can simply be eaten in the form of old fashioned porridge (not instant

oatmeal.)  Other nervine tonics that have a relaxing effect include Damiana,

Skullcap, Vervain and Wood Betony.  Of these, Skullcap is often the most

effective.  Nervine Relaxants might also help.  A representative list of

Nervine Relaxants include: Black Cohosh, Black Haw, California Poppy,

Chamomile, Cramp Bark, Hops, Hyssop, Jamaican Dogwood, Lady's Slipper,

Lavender, Lime Blossom, Mistletoe, Motherwort, Pawsque Flower, Passion

Flower, Rosemary, St. Johnswort, Skullcap and Valerian.



Please research thse herbs carefully for any contraindications or side

affects that might occur prior to their use.



There are some essential oils that help calm the nervous system and

strengthen resolve.  My company manufacturers an aromatherapy blend (ADIXION

tm)  that is slightly sedative, gentle action to dissolve disharmony and

stregthen decision making.  Antidepressant, balancing and detoxifying,  it

includes essential oils of Myrtle, Cedarwood, Pine, Juniper Berry, Angelica,

Lavender Flower, Clary Sage, Lemon, Mimosa and Sweet Basil.



Hope this helps.



Regards,



>

>

Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:44:00 CDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Mickie Erickson <Mickie@DECISIONSYS.COM>

Subject:      Dehydration



I went to a talk given by a nutritionist a couple of years ago and she

said that by the time most people feel thirsty, they are already

dehydrated.  I believe that this is what Paul was referring to

(subclinical dehydration).  The symptoms that other people have described

(dizziness etc) tend to occur when the dehydration has reached the point

where you are going to be in serious trouble if you don't get fluids NOW.



A side note, if you have trouble sleeping during hot weather the problem

may be dehydration, and drinking several glasses of water may help you

get to sleep.



Mickie (mickie@decisionsys.com)



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:46:05 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ellen Gary <bludevil@CRIS.COM>

Subject:      Hot Flashes



>Date:    Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:00:19 +0100

>From:    Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

>Subject: Re: no-fruit diet: more results

>



>As you will recall, hot flashes are a sign of significant health imbalance.

>Merely not eating fruit will not balance the health (or Digestion) of

>someone with significant health imbalances in other fields of the body (in

>this case, the Liver and Kidneys).

>

>Paul



What about menopausal hot flashes?



Ellen



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:01:31 GMT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Phyllis Johnpoll <phyllis.johnpoll@NCSL.ORG>

Organization: National Conference of State Legislatures

Subject:      Quitting smoking



I have no way to validate this claim, but the number of people who made

it when I was pregnant and trying to quit convinces me that it is at

least a generally accepted folk remedy.



Lobelia tea was recommended by about six people, of whom five withdrew

the suggestion upon learning I was pregnant. They said that it would

somewhat (not a lot, but a little goes a long way if you're serious

about quitting) the impact of nicotine withdrawal. I cannot say from

personal experience that it works because I had to do it the hard way.

(BTW, being pregnant is a wonderful aid when trying to quit. Aside from

the obvious incentive, one of the first things that I noticed, and a

number of my friends who have been pregnant confirm that it's common,

was a serious aversion to smoke in any form. Well, maybe barbecue smoke

was okay for a short breath or too.....)



*BB*



gypsy



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:55:45 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ellen Gary <bludevil@CRIS.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats



>Date:    Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:22:57 +0100

>From:    Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

>Subject: Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats

>

>>Paul Iannone wrote:

>>>

>>> As you will recall, hot flashes are a sign of significant health

>>> imbalance. Merely not eating fruit will not balance the health (or

>>> Digestion) of someone with significant health imbalances in other

>>> fields of the body (in this case, the Liver and Kidneys).

>>>

>>> Paul

>>

>>As someone who suffers from hot flashes...night sweats in particular...

>>due to a complete hysterectomy a few years ago, I'd like to know how to

>>balance myself, or even if it's possible. And yes, I drink coffee and

>>smoke, and I'm on HRT, which does help somewhat, but not completely.

>>

>>BB

>>

>>Schi

>

>Well, you drop the coffee entirely first off. That's non-negociable in this

>regard.

>

>Secondly, herbs do exist to replenish the Kidney Yin Essence. The most

>effective formula in my experience is Zhi Bai Dihuang Wan, available in

>Chinatowns usually spelled Chih Pai Di Huang Wan. You have to take

>substantial amounts.

>

>Btw, the hot flashes in most cases don't result from the hysterectomy, but

>are rather a continuation of the health imbalances that make such

>procedures 'necessary' in the first place.

>

>Paul



Isn't it not a good idea to quit drinking coffee "cold turkey"?  Forget

where I read/heard this, but the body supposedly goes through withdrawals

from the caffeine, causing headaches.  Wouldn't it be better to slowly

decrease coffee intake?



Ellen



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:11:07 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ellen Gary <bludevil@CRIS.COM>



>>>> If you think you MAY be dehydrated, you probably are.

>>>>

>>>> Paul-----------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>Paul,

>>>This is not an answer!! Your smart, SHOW US!!!

>>>Us "Common Folk" would like to KNOW!!!!!!!!!!

>>>

>>>Randy and Cathy Froeba

>>

>>I agree.  I have been a subscriber to this list for a short while, enjoying

>>_most_ of the information sharing.  But Paul, Randy & Cathy (and others)

>>have a good point.  Since you are obviously knowledgeable, please let that

>>speak for itself.  Simply share with us.  There is no need to flaunt your

>>knowledge or condescend to the rest of us.

>>

>>Speaking for myself, I am here to learn.  Your tone is such that I "tune"

>>most of your messages out.  How can you possibly help anyone that way?

>>

>>Ellen

>

>Don't whine to me if you can't understand simple answers to questions! Just

>because a subject doesn't have a complex answer doesn't mean it is wrong or

>that I am being rude. This issue is just that simple: IF you think you

>MIGHT be dehydrated, you probably ARE! Go get a glass of water.

>

>No reason to make this more complex than that. Perhaps you are not aware

>that studies have shown that most Americans are subclinically dehydrated.

>

>Paul



Who's whining?



  Merely making a point, as do you.



Why did you think the answer wasn't understood?



  A desire for some information does not constitute misunderstanding.

  And you are sometimes rude.



Now a couple of questions:



  What about hormonal balances as related to hot flashes?  What if your

diet is a good, healthy diet but you suffer from hot flashes _only_ due to

menopause and the hormonal changes/imbalance that menopause causes?  I've

noticed that because I, unfortunately, suffer these hot flashes, my thirst

is greatly increased.  These flashes result in being extremely hot, of

course, clammy skin while the flash is "raging", and an increase in

perspiration.  I attributed my thirst increase to this loss of fluid from

the sweating.  What would your advice be on this, Paul?



Ellen



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 14:57:41 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Wilson <MWilson780@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Natural Healing Book



In a message dated 96-09-04 20:44:07 EDT, you write:



>I would be very interested to know where to get a copy of Natural Healing

>With Herbs.  If anyone knows please tell me.  Thanks!

>Charity Hagen

>crzy4birds@juno.com

>

>



I found my copy in my local health food store but I would think any of the

larger book stores would have it.  It is published by: Hohn Press  P.O. Box

2501  Prescott, AZ  86302



Hope you like it and learn from it!

Marcia



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 19:54:05 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Schi <rouge@EASYNET.CO.UK>

Organization: Original Synergy

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats



Paul Iannone wrote:

>

> Odd that you would defend your consumption of CNS stimulants when

> you have night sweats and are well aware that you have a hormonal

> imbalance.

>

> Paul



Sorry, Paul, but I don't take everything I read as gospel. Thus far,

you've given me no reason to take your word for anything. If you're the

healer you claim to be, you'll understand an intelligent request for

information, and be glad the 'patient' isn't some idiot who swallows

everything they're given whole. I didn't defend my consumption of

coffee, I said tell me why. And not just on coffee...on everything you

initially posted. If you can't do that, then just like I would with any

real doctor, I'll turn from your recommendations and go find someone who

can not only treat my illnesses, but treat me like the human I am as

well. I don't know who you are beyond the fact that you're always rude.

For all I know you got your so-called training on the internet...you've

certainly picked up the manners practiced by spammers. If you'd like, we

can start over. I've requested information...if you want to give it,

fine, if not, why even waste your time being sarcastic? Others here can

offer advice as well as you, and politely too.



BB



Schi



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 12:09:49 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Nancy Goren <nancy@TUX.MUSIC.ASU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Paul's lack of credentials



There is nothing inherent about formal education which would preclude a

person from also gaining wisdom about acupressure channels or "Qi", a term

which I assume Paul means "Chi", or energy flow.  We are all connected to

Spirit, Paul.  It is not your private domain.



--

Nancy Goren

 nancy@tux.music.asu.edu



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 20:22:22 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Schi <rouge@EASYNET.CO.UK>

Organization: Original Synergy

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats



Marcia Elston wrote:

>

> I was a coffee (double latte) addict for years and the excessive

> caffeine caused a thinning of my uterine wall, which resulted in

> mennoragia (excessive bleeding with periods) and many complications

> during menopause. I have to agree with Paul about the coffee.  Ditch

> it.  I take a homeopathic remedy, Phyto B, for HRT, and I do better

> with it than synthetic HRT. I believe the primary ingredient is Wild

> Yam, which is much touted these days.

> If you would like more information about this product, let me know.

>



Thank you, Marcia...this I can understand. What sort of complications

did you get with menopause, if you don't mind telling me? And is it the

caffeine in the coffee?...which would mean also dropping other caffeine

drinks? I don't generally have caffeine other than coffee...I don't

drink sodas or non-herbal teas, so it's not a problem or a loss, I'd

just like to know. Does this include decaffeinated coffee as well? (I

*really* love my coffee <sniff>)



And yes, I'd like to know more about the Wild Yam, as someone else has

recommended it as well. Also, do you know about Chaste Tree Berries?...

that went hand-in-hand with the Yam recommendation.



Thanks much...



Schi



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:29:26 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Schi <rouge@EASYNET.CO.UK>

Organization: Original Synergy

Subject:      Re: Kombucha Tea



Marcia Elston wrote:

>

>  I am an herbalist currently studying for certification as a medicinal

> herbalist  with David Hoffman at the California School of Herbal

> Studies...I began my interest in herbs as a child learning the uses

> both culinary and medicinally while riding our (very British)

> neighbor's St. Bernard around her garden; she picking things and

> popping them into my mouth with elaborate descriptions about their

> uses.  Professionally, I gravitated towards the arts and for some 20

> years was an arts administrator with an emphasis on ethnic, folk and

> cross-cultural study and programming and during this time I renewed

> my interest in herbs by studying and documenting the similarities

> and differences of plant usage among varying ethnic and occupational

> groups. I have had my own herb garden for 20+ years and have learned

> plant growing, harvesting and preparation for medicinal usages,

> including distilling my own essential oils, as well as drying,

> infusions, macerations, tinctures, ointments, etc.  Three years ago,

> I decided to take this knowledge and start my own company, dedicated

> to better understanding the relationships between plants and man, and

> to providing products and tools for self-care and wellness.  I

> continue my studies because there is still so much to learn, and I

> recognize the importance of credentials, even though some of them are

> not recognized in this country, yet.  I have studied with Khalsa, an

> Ayurvedic Herbalist, and with Michael Schoals and other

> Aromatherapists. I've taken classes from Rosemary Verey, the great

> English gardner.  These are some of the influences I have.



Thanks for this info, Marcia...this sort of thing is exactly what I had

in mind.



Maybe it would be helpful if we could convince the list owner to carry a

sort of 'who's who' here, with levels of experience and company

affiliations...that would allow each list member to tell others about

thier companies without actually advertising on the list, as well as

give newcomers (and old hands, as well) some sort of feel for the people

who offer up remedies and advice on the list. I know I'd certainly

appreciate it.



For myself, I have no practical experience, which is one of the reasons

I'm on the list...to learn. My interest has been long-standing, but only

recently have I had the time to devote attention to herbs and their

uses, and I'd like to take courses in herbal medicine which will give me

the knowledge I seek. In the meantime, I'll just pick up what I can from

here, and occasionally ask a few questions.



Nice to meet you all <smile>.



BB



Schi



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 12:56:25 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Paul's lack of credentials



At 08:06 AM 9/5/96 +0100, you wrote:

>Per the subject line, there are no credentials in my field. You prefer to

>confuse training or education or aptitude with accreditation. Then again,

>the conventional society is fascinated with degrees and diplomas, as if the

>evidence that they do NOT qualify a healer is not overwhelming. Look around.



I believe the people sharing on this list are not overly  fascinated with

degrees and diplomas.  To me, certification from any coursework simply means

that I have taken the time to complete the course to the satisfaction of the

teacher (who imparts valuable knowledge that I can use,)  and this effort

lends some credibility among my peers and those I wish to serve.  We are all

healers, Paul, some of us just don't know it.  Actual healing comes from the

person afflicted, sometimes assisted by the healing hands or help or someone

else.  I hope I don't get so full of my own healing capabilities that I

forget that.

>

>Healing is spirit-chosen work. Being an 'herbalist' is not necessarily

>being a healer. Herbs are a tool, but they cannot be understood unless you

>understand healing. I am proud to be a healer, but I don't consider myself

>a 'master' herbalist or anything of the sort, relying on the greatness of

>past herbalists for their genius in formulating specific solutions to

>specific patterns of imbalance. I don't doubt that certain Western

>herbalists can achieve the same results using a GREAT deal of

>sophistication and hands-on experience---I applaud them! But I stand on the

>shoulders of giants, and freely admit it.



Healing is spirit chosen work, as you say.  Holistically, it also includes

organic and physical components - many of which you have suggested to use.

I acknowledge that you are a healer, and I am sometimes awed by your

responses.  It is patience we seek from you and an effort to integrate your

opinions and conclusions with our own.  Please share with us the giants

whose shoulders you stand on; we could all benefit.

>

>I know what I do very well, but that doesn't mean that it can be explained

>on a postage stamp to the whim of someone who can't be bothered to do basic

>research, or who thinks that healing is a matter of paying money to a

>healer.



Your post is much larger than a postage stamp, but that is about the size of

valuable information it contains for me.  Who are you referring to above?  I

have seen no posts on the list indicating your accusations.   Your

proclivity for mean spiritedness could interfere with your ability to heal,

IMHO.



 Nor does it mean that if I memorized a million formulas I would

>become a better healer. I know what I use, and I know that most people are

>sick to a great degree because they haven't taken responsibility for their

>behavior, whether through ignorance or stubborness. In this regard, I am

>like a Native American healer who can heal almost anything with pitch pine,

>comfrey, clay, and sweats. The great psychologist/physician Nicolls, one of

>Gurdjieff's students, wrote in his journal that in his stay in India he

>realized that the illnesses he faced were best treated with the

>basics...opium, quinine, and salts. Of course, that is what the ordinary

>doctors did, but they botched it. It takes great skill to apply simple

>means and cure



I do not doubt your skill.  I have seen healing occur, however, with no

skill other than the resolve of the person afflicted. (Your reference to

Nicolls is about self-healing.)  There are many of us who have come to the

realization that allopathy is limited and has not yet climbed out of it's

narrow synthetic-chemical-pharmaceutical box to embrace the holistic

philosopy of wellness that exists in other medical systems.  All allopaths

are not bad guys, however, many of them are seeking new ways of looking at

things.  Again, patience, sharing, collaboration, teaching and understanding

are the keys to human knowledge of its great, but sometimes latent,  ability

for wellness.   .

>

>The teaching in TCM schools, on the other hand, is focussed on some

>pencil-pushers' misplaced idea of breadth. You learn tons of formulas for

>diseases like advanced hepatitis that you will never use, memorize every

>one of 365 point positions even though no one ever uses more than fifty in

>a lifetime of practice? Why? It is because TCM is a hospital tradition,

>concerned about status, about pecking order, not about healing and then

>disappearing into the mist at the edge of town. People want 'credentials'

>because their intuition of what healing is has become so dim they need

>someone in apparent authority to wave a censor over the pews. But acolytes

>are not priests even if they wear the cloth, and healers aren't the ones

>whose walls smell the most of myrhh.



You have such a disdain for all methods, other than your own.  What good is

this exhalted knowledge of yours, if you cannot share and teach for the

benefit of mankind?  I am becoming dizzy with your negative litany.  Why

dwell on those people who you perceive as having no intuition of healing?

Why not embrace the millions out there seeking advice and counsel and REAL

SUBSTANCE, many of whom are right on this list.



 Healers are the ones who tell you the

>hard truth that makes you free.



Here, I must differ strongly.  Freedom only comes from changes within.

Sometimes a gentle nudge is more effective than a battering ram.

>

>My most important work, asides from restoring basic lifestyle intelligence

>in my clients and Draining/Supplementing their Organs with herbs, is

>Clearing their Channels though a quite painful form of acupressure that

>goes straight to the point. There aren't, and will never be, credentials

>for that work...it is spirit-taught. I see the flow of Qi in people's

>bodies, and can adjust it directly. How did I learn this? By reading a

>book? By scraping after a teacher for decades begging their secrets? NO, it

>just fell on me to know what is energetically wrong in a person's body, and

>to devise schemes for correcting that flow.



My limited knowledge of the River of Life or Traditional Chinese Meridian

System is that all matter is infused with a subtle energy known as chi or

qi, which manifests itself through vibration, circulation adn waves of

movement.  This qi flows along a network of channels called meridians which

spread like an intricate web through the body.  It is sometimes likened to a

second nervous system which forms a connnection between the physical body

and the subtler energy system surrounding it.  It may also be perceived as

an aura of light that may at times be colorful.  According to the Chinese

model I have viewed, there are 12 pairs of meridians, each pair associated

with a different organ system or function.  I believe the first reference to

this energy network is found in the Nei Ching or Yellow Emperor's Classic of

Internal Medicine, written during the reign of the Emperor Huang Ti between

2697 adn 2596 BC.  The TCM that I know of offers various ways to promote the

movement of energy to preserve well-being and encourage spiritual

development.  The techniques of acupuncture and acupressure use knowledge of

the meridians to clear energy blockages and heal illness.  All QiGong

masters have the ability to diagnose illness at a distance by reading the

subtle anatomy.  According to QiGong master Zhi-xing Wang, any illness can

be explained as an energy blockage in the body.  Circulation and movements

of the subtle energy can clear this blockage.  I have also read that Dr.

Hiroshi Motoyama, a researcher in Japan, devised a system of measuring the

electrical characteristics of the 12 major meridians.  Known as the AMI.

Dr. Motoyama has studied over 5,000 subjects and found strong correlations

between meridians that are electrically out of balance and the presence of

underlying disease in the associated organ.  Does this explanation fit a

description of how you practice healing, Paul?



 Quite obviously, I cannot

>demonstrate this on the internet, so I almost never talk about it. But it

>is quite a different thing to see Qi and innately understand its flow, than

>to bring out a piece of string and demonstrate to a Board of nincompoops

>that you can measure where you were told, according to the credential you

>seek, where the point should be.



Surely others than yourself have elevated to QiGong master?  Or, is this

something you do not claim?  Again, your rampant disdain for other

individuals as well as other systems leads me to believe you might have a

need to examine the possibility of thought disorders (such as delusion)

yourself.  How might this disorder translate into TCM and how might it be

treated?



>People graduate acupuncture school with their petty little diplomas, and

>then go begging to the State for a licence to practice something they

>really don't understand at all. They literally couldn't hit an acupressure

>Channel blindfolded. They have NO idea what Qi is. In the old days, if you

>wanted to be an acupuncturist of great power, you studied martial arts for

>even as much as thirty years before you understood what it was to needle.

>Now, Americans spend MONEY, get an education that is mostly worthless, and

>ruin their health doing it, and then get a licence from a society that has

>even less conception of healing than they. Weehaw! Then they hang their

>walls with scrip and pictures of some dead healer, and proceed to divide

>the masses from their funds.



How can you possibly heal humanity when you appear to despise it so?

>

>What is the value of such certification? NOTHING. What is the value of a

>man? You can all spin around that drain if you want to. It's like asking

>your grandfather what right he has to spit on the porch.

>

>Paul

>

FYI, we learned a long time ago that spitting can cause the spread of

infectious disease.  I might tell my grandfather that, and perhaps he would

choose to act differently.  One can only hope the perfect analogy in this

message is not lost.



Regards,



Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:18:18 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Shea <sheag@OZ.NET>

Subject:      Re: Paul's lack of credentials



----------

> From: Nancy Goren <nancy@TUX.MUSIC.ASU.EDU>



> There is nothing inherent about formal education which would preclude a

> person from also gaining wisdom about acupressure channels or "Qi", a

term

> which I assume Paul means "Chi", or energy flow.  We are all connected to

> Spirit, Paul.  It is not your private domain.



Amazing. Paul is assaulted with one of those annoying 'lack of credentials'

posts, and when he defends himself in a calm, deliberate, expansive, and

far more civil manner than I think I would have been able to muster given

the nature of the attack, he is attacked yet again for his defense! While

it is arguable that there is nothing inherent about formal education which

would preculde a person from gaining wisdom of Qi, I find it inarguable

that there is nothing inherent about the *LACK* of formal education which

would preclude the same. And isn't that exactly how all of this started?



Perhaps the connection to 'Spirit' is not Paul's private domain (something

he certainly has never claimed), but it certainly isn't something that

professors are handing out, either. Give it a rest, people. If you don't

want to follow Paul's advice, don't.



Shea



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:38:00 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         lesley bricker <lbricke@BGNET.BGSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats

In-Reply-To:  <322F21CD.6539@easynet.co.uk>



BB

Schi

I have heard that Evening Primrose Oil has helped people with hot flashes

due to hormonal changes. I am on a menopause discussion list which is

very informational on HRT and natural remedies for menopause. If you are

interested, let me know and I will give you the address.

Lesley



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:14:24 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Daniel Miller <un106@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>

Subject:      Re: Paul's lack of credentials

In-Reply-To:  <v03007804ae542475fc15@[206.138.118.105]>



Thank you for putting forward this address Paul it reads to me as done

with an even `spirit'.



I find value in a number of different healing arts yet in my exploration

of the healing arts TCM is the only one that comes across as a cohesive

system for health maintainance.  And yes I have Ted J. Kaptchuck's _The

Web That Has No Weaver_. I think that those on list who are befuddled by

terms within the TCM system would have some comprehension of them if they

read this book.



Regardless there are some personal questions and concerns I have for you.



I am taking Duralith (lithium) and clonazepam for bipolar affective

disorder. Infrequently I take low doses of neuroleptics. My former diagnosis

was schizophrenia. Regardless of the diagnosis my concern is the

suggested damage that these drugs can have over a prolonged period of use.



At one time I took Chinese herbal tea preparations of sometimes 16

different herbs prescribed through the assessment of my pulse and patterns.

Concerns arose from the TCM doctor treating me of the interactiveness of

my psychiatric medication and the herbs. And wonder one can take less

herbs for a specific condition such mine following TCM application. Cost

is one facor I have to consider.



If at all possible I would like to diminish my use of at least the

clonazepam or even not take these two medications at all if I knew there

was some alternative to them. *Note* this is not a rash thought but a

consideration that has occured to me for some time. Of course I know

such an endevour carries risks.



My question to you 1s what herbs would you identify would be helpful

for my mood stablization. Apart from cyclic depression, I have experience

some degree of parnoia, amotivation, low sex drive, memory and

concentration problems (more recent) and borderline pschotic experiences

through the winter months. The depression occurs most in the summer and

winter months. Currently my mood is stabler. Major psychotic episodes

have been a past concern (age 16-21. Current age 34).



Other complaints are nerve comprehension at wrist, but predominantly down

my left side from the should and neck through the back down through the

hip to the foot. Sometimes the pain and immoblization corresponds to

emotional upsets. The nerve comprepression is as much a concern as my

"mental illness".



I do taijiquan. Am trying to diminish daily coffee use. I daily use

nettle and peppermint tea, goat's whey and Ginkgo biloba. My lifestyle is

sedindary. I am not a vegitarian. Very little fruit in my diet. Rarely drink

alcoholic beverages and take no other recreational drugs.



I do recall you saying that to the effect chronic diseases such as

schizophrenia are not treatable or not very responsive to treatment.



Anyway I have given you this information with the consideration that you

may be able to provide me with at least some guidance in respect to my

condition. If there is any further information you need I will provide it.



Dan



 On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:



> Per the subject line, there are no credentials in my field. You prefer to

> confuse training or education or aptitude with accreditation. Then again,

> the conventional society is fascinated with degrees and diplomas, as if the

> evidence that they do NOT qualify a healer is not overwhelming. Look around.

>

> Healing is spirit-chosen work. Being an 'herbalist' is not necessarily

> being a healer. Herbs are a tool, but they cannot be understood unless you

> understand healing. I am proud to be a healer, but I don't consider myself

> a 'master' herbalist or anything of the sort, relying on the greatness of

> past herbalists for their genius in formulating specific solutions to

> specific patterns of imbalance. I don't doubt that certain Western

> herbalists can achieve the same results using a GREAT deal of

> sophistication and hands-on experience---I applaud them! But I stand on the

> shoulders of giants, and freely admit it.

>

> I know what I do very well, but that doesn't mean that it can be explained

> on a postage stamp to the whim of someone who can't be bothered to do basic

> research, or who thinks that healing is a matter of paying money to a

> healer. Nor does it mean that if I memorized a million formulas I would

> become a better healer. I know what I use, and I know that most people are

> sick to a great degree because they haven't taken responsibility for their

> behavior, whether through ignorance or stubborness. In this regard, I am

> like a Native American healer who can heal almost anything with pitch pine,

> comfrey, clay, and sweats. The great psychologist/physician Nicolls, one of

> Gurdjieff's students, wrote in his journal that in his stay in India he

> realized that the illnesses he faced were best treated with the

> basics...opium, quinine, and salts. Of course, that is what the ordinary

> doctors did, but they botched it. It takes great skill to apply simple

> means and cure.

>

> The teaching in TCM schools, on the other hand, is focussed on some

> pencil-pushers' misplaced idea of breadth. You learn tons of formulas for

> diseases like advanced hepatitis that you will never use, memorize every

> one of 365 point positions even though no one ever uses more than fifty in

> a lifetime of practice? Why? It is because TCM is a hospital tradition,

> concerned about status, about pecking order, not about healing and then

> disappearing into the mist at the edge of town. People want 'credentials'

> because their intuition of what healing is has become so dim they need

> someone in apparent authority to wave a censor over the pews. But acolytes

> are not priests even if they wear the cloth, and healers aren't the ones

> whose walls smell the most of myrhh. Healers are the ones who tell you the

> hard truth that makes you free.

>

> My most important work, asides from restoring basic lifestyle intelligence

> in my clients and Draining/Supplementing their Organs with herbs, is

> Clearing their Channels though a quite painful form of acupressure that

> goes straight to the point. There aren't, and will never be, credentials

> for that work...it is spirit-taught. I see the flow of Qi in people's

> bodies, and can adjust it directly. How did I learn this? By reading a

> book? By scraping after a teacher for decades begging their secrets? NO, it

> just fell on me to know what is energetically wrong in a person's body, and

> to devise schemes for correcting that flow. Quite obviously, I cannot

> demonstrate this on the internet, so I almost never talk about it. But it

> is quite a different thing to see Qi and innately understand its flow, than

> to bring out a piece of string and demonstrate to a Board of nincompoops

> that you can measure where you were told, according to the credential you

> seek, where the point should be.

>

> People graduate acupuncture school with their petty little diplomas, and

> then go begging to the State for a licence to practice something they

> really don't understand at all. They literally couldn't hit an acupressure

> Channel blindfolded. They have NO idea what Qi is. In the old days, if you

> wanted to be an acupuncturist of great power, you studied martial arts for

> even as much as thirty years before you understood what it was to needle.

> Now, Americans spend MONEY, get an education that is mostly worthless, and

> ruin their health doing it, and then get a licence from a society that has

> even less conception of healing than they. Weehaw! Then they hang their

> walls with scrip and pictures of some dead healer, and proceed to divide

> the masses from their funds.

>

> What is the value of such certification? NOTHING. What is the value of a

> man? You can all spin around that drain if you want to. It's like asking

> your grandfather what right he has to spit on the porch.

>

> Paul

>





how sig can it be?



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:47:57 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         william hill <wmhill@POPALEX1.LINKNET.NET>

Subject:      Re: Paul's lack of credentials



 You should run for President! It's quite obvious your qualified for that!



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 20:20:24 EST

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Regina Roberts <RROBERTS@KSGFIN.HARVARD.EDU>

Organization: Kennedy School of Government

Subject:      (Fwd) Re: Frequent colds/to cook or not to cook?



For Nan-



------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

From:          Self <FINANCE/RROBERTS>

To:            rouge@easynet.co.uk

Subject:       Re: Frequent colds/to cook or not to cook?

Date:          Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:29:12



Dear Schi-

RE: Carrot Ginger Soup Recipe.



-Make a pureed Carrot Soup

        [ I use carrots, onions, garlic, olive

        oil, tamari, a piece of seaweed (optional, take it out before

        blending puree or leave it in depending on what type of seaweed you

        are using and how much. I use a small amount of hijiki and leave it

        in), and water]

Add the juice from freshly grated Ginger root (don't use powdered

ginger) I use about one Tbs. of ginger juice per cup of soup.  Use

more or less according to your taste.

Let simmer 10-15 mins. to allow flavors to blend.



-Regina



P.S. Pumpkin Carrot Ginger sounds likea good combo too.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 03:23:41 +0200

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ed Taylor <etaylor@RIPPERS.COM>

Subject:      Listen to the tune...



Paul the Piper is playing....



You'll know he's playing when you see the ebb and flow of comments about

him. He controls the list with stinging attacks. He controls it when you

respond. He controls it when you defend yourself and controls it when you don't.



When you tire of it and call him on his behavior, he plays a tune of

melodious sounds you chase about. At the moment the lyrics of that song are

about "credentials" and such.



And then there is always the final refrain of his defenders coming to his

defense with..."Poor misunderstood Paul, Poor Paul...Poor Paul..."



For months I have watched him play this list like a fine instrument. I would

applaud this performance, but it has been replayed so many times it is

beginning to grate on my nerves. Whoops...I think you just caught me humming

the melody....



ET





From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 20:25:39 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         John Stankiewicz <radiant@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds



At 06:41 PM 9/4/96 +0100, you wrote:

>The inevitable longterm effect of such diets in people of moderate vitality

>is decline. While such diets are cleansing in the short run, they deplete

>Digestion, especially if they involve high fruit consumption.

>

>People of high vitality can eat anything they please. But the health

>aspects of the so-called live foods diet are exagerated by such people, who

>mistake themselves for exemplars. Most people develop illness if they

>overconsume raw food over the long run.

>

>Paul

>



Paul, is the above your own personal opinion and/or personal observation in

your clients or is this a widely held belief in Traditional Chinese Medicine?



And are there any others on this list that support this belief?  I don't

recall seeing anyone agree with this particular point of view.  What do you

say, lurkers?



The Minimum Optimum Diet (as we call it in our Community) consists of a

minimum amount of food necessary of optimal functioning and is optimally raw

and the percentage of raw vs cooked is of course dependent on each

individual's case, climate, availability and so on.  This type of diet was

extensively researched by our Community and the Radiant Life Clinic and

Research Centre (staffed by doctors and wholistic healers, members of

Adidam) and then tested, and the testing continues, now in its approximately

25th year.  This type of diet has also been tested by our Spiritual Master

in His own Body over the last 25 years.  The conclusion is that this *is*

the optimum diet for Humans.  Now dont' misinterpret what I'm saying here:

the diet is optimally raw, but does contain some cooked food, and/or some

nuts, and/or some seeds, and/or some grains and the amount is to be

determined by each individual with the help of the Radiant Life Clinic and

Research Centre.  So we're not talking about some radical diet like the

mucusless diet system propsed by the late Arnold Ehret.



In conclusion, this type of diet is naturally cleansing (eliminative) and

harmonizing or sattvic.  It may take a few years for some people to adjust

to it, but that has more to do with current patterns or habits as well as

poor emotional and mental balance.



Here are some sections I've excerpted from our Teaching relative to the diet.



QUOTING BEGINS



"The gross body depends on the various levels of the subtle body (and they,

each in turn, depend on one another).  Therefore, the gross body relates

directly to the first level of the subtle body, which is the body of prana

(or natural life-energy).



In fact, the gross bodily person is rooted (or grounded) in the abdominal

region, or the general region of the navel (including all functions below

the navel).  Therefore, once both hearing and seeing are established, the

practice of the Way of the Heart becomes (at first) a matter of the frontal

Yoga of submitting attention into the (by Grace Revealed) Spirit-Current, so

that It may pass (as the Spirit-Current naturally does) from the navel to

the center of the heart region.  Once the gross or frontal personality is

under control (via a complex of disciplines associated with "money, food,

and sex", or life-relations, diet, and sexuality), and once the gross

frontal dimension of the Spirit-Current is submitted (or followed) to the

center of the heart (and steadied at the feeling level or heart chakra),

then practice of the Way of the Heart has moved fully from the frontal (or

descending) Yoga and (potentially) to the spinal (or ascending) Yoga.  And

among all the practical, functional, relational, and cultural disciplines

that serve this transition (as well as the frontal Yoga itself), the

conservative discipline (or control) of diet is (elementally) the most basic

(because dietary practice, which controls or largely determines the state of

the food body, or the state and general activity of the physical body, also

determines the relative controllability of social, sexual, emotional,

mental, and all other functional desires and activities).



If diet is controlled, the gross food body is more easily controlled, and

all the disciplines of the body-mind will, to that degree, be quickened in

their effectiveness....



The right and optimum diet is necessarily a conservative diet.  In right (or

effective) practice of the Way of the Heart, dietary discipline fully serves

the submission of personal energy and attention to the Great Process that

becomes Spiritual and Transcendental Divine Self-Realization.  Therefore,

the right and optimum diet should be intelligently moderated in its quantity

and carefully selected in its quality, so that it will not burden the

physical body or bind the mind, or attention, through food desire and

negative (or constipating, toxifying, and enervating) food effects.

Consequently, right and optimum diet should, as a general rule, be natural,

fresh, whole, wholesome, balanced, balancing, pure, or non-toxic, and

purifying--or, in the language of tradition, sattvic.  And right and optimum

diet should, as a general rule, be limited to what is necessary and

sufficient for bodily (and general psycho-physical) purification, balance,

well-being, and appropriate service.



.....

In My experience (which is confirmed by tradition and by modern research and

experimentation), the basic, diet, or the diet that most fully and

consistently meets al the requirements for right diet (or the "minimum

Optimum" diet I have indicated), is the vegetarian (or, more properly,

fructo-vegetarian), or even the exclusively fruitarian, diet, consisting

exclusively (or at least maximally) of raw (or uncooked, or unfired, and,

thus, entirely living) foods.  Such dietary discipline permits a range of

possibilities, from an exclusively raw vegetable and/or fruit diet to a

maximally raw fructo-vegetarian (fruit and vegetable) diet (consisting of

both raw and cooked foods in varying degrees).  In either case, such a basic

(or "minimum Optimum") diet is, as a general rule, limited to fruits, and

(perhaps) seeds and nuts, and (perhaps) sprouts, greens, grasses, and other

vegetables of choice, including (perhaps) a few root vegetables (such as

carrots and beets, and perhaps some cooked, or even raw, potatoes), and also

(perhaps) some legumes and grains (sprouted, or even soaked, or perhaps, in

moderate amounts, cooked).  In the case of such dietary discipline, foods

are taken in both solid and liquid forms (except during fasts, or during any

period in which an exclusively liquid fruit, or liquid vegetable, or liquid

fruit and vegetable diet is preferred), and the general rule is to take food

in moderate amounts, without vitamins or other supplements (unless strictly

required), and (as a general rule, consistently applied) without social

"accessories" (such as tobacco, or alcohol), and (entirely) without social

drugs, and (generally) without stimulants (such as coffee or tea), or "junk"

food, or any food substances that do not qualify as sattvic substances or

otherwise correspond to the types or quantities of food ordinarily taken.



....

In order to understand and evaluate the "minimum Optimum" dietary discipline

(or disciplined dietary practice) Given by Me for application by all

practitioners of the Way of the Heart, you should study the total and

progressive sattvic dietary approach communicated in My summaries of

Instruction relative to dietary discipline.  Likewise, as a further aid to

your understanding and evaluation of the by Me Given "Minimum Optimum"

dietary discipline, you may do well to study the total tradition, including

the modern (or latest) research and experimentation, relative to sattvic (or

pure and purifying, rebalancing, and rejuvenating) dietary discipline.

Then, if you agree with the sattvic dietary approach I have communicated,

and if you are prepared to embrace that discipline as your own, begin the

progressive development of the right and optimum diet that is best for your

particular constitution (or psycho-physical type), and always vary the diet

artfully (but within the range of its basic principles) , in response to

such factors as climate, the availability of food (and the availability of

locally grown food), your level of physical (and mental, and emotional)

activity, and your age and stage of life (or developmental stage of your

practice in the Way of the Heart).



Always practice dietary discipline with appropriate medical advice and

supervision, so that the pace, the special requirements, and the results of

your dietary discipline can be determined most efficiently and organized

most effectively."



QUOTING ENDS



And of course there's more.



John.







http://www.radiant-living.com (where we try to avoid premature cognitive

commitments or old paradigms and present new ones!)

The average person has about 65,000 thoughts a day.  What is disconcerting

is that more than 95% of the thoughts are the same ones as the person had

yesterday.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 20:25:46 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         John Stankiewicz <radiant@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject:      Re: Paul's lack of credentials



At 08:06 AM 9/5/96 +0100, you wrote:



An EXCELLENT post Paul!





>Per the subject line, there are no credentials in my field. You prefer to

>confuse training or education or aptitude with accreditation. Then again,

>the conventional society is fascinated with degrees and diplomas, as if the

>evidence that they do NOT qualify a healer is not overwhelming. Look around.



----snip------



>

>People graduate acupuncture school with their petty little diplomas, and

>then go begging to the State for a licence to practice something they

>really don't understand at all. They literally couldn't hit an acupressure

>Channel blindfolded. They have NO idea what Qi is. In the old days, if you

>wanted to be an acupuncturist of great power, you studied martial arts for

>even as much as thirty years before you understood what it was to needle.

>Now, Americans spend MONEY, get an education that is mostly worthless, and

>ruin their health doing it, and then get a licence from a society that has

>even less conception of healing than they. Weehaw! Then they hang their

>walls with scrip and pictures of some dead healer, and proceed to divide

>the masses from their funds.

>

>What is the value of such certification? NOTHING. What is the value of a

>man? You can all spin around that drain if you want to. It's like asking

>your grandfather what right he has to spit on the porch.

>



Excellent!  On the mark.  I know a healer near Montreal, Canada, that does

something similar, he can actually work with all of the subtle vehicles at

the same time and help break up "knots" wherever they are.  He calls it

Biopractique.  What's ineresting is that he confessed to me that there was a

time where he studied all kinds of books, research reports, medical texts,

and so on, but....none of it was the real truth.  He now relies on his

direct experience, direct sense of where the blocks are in the physical, and

subtle and just helps the person to break those up.



You're doing good work Paul.  Just be little more humorous.  Life is short.



John.

http://www.radiant-living.com (where we try to avoid premature cognitive

commitments or old paradigms and present new ones!)

The average person has about 65,000 thoughts a day.  What is disconcerting

is that more than 95% of the thoughts are the same ones as the person had

yesterday.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:33:55 -0600

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Neil B. Tolman" <nltolman@CYBERPORT.COM>

Subject:      Re: Pauls reply about credentials



Thank you for that reply,   I may not agree with every thing you say on this

group, but I agree with your qualifications.



Neil



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 21:22:27 +0000

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         michael bellah <mbellah@VOYAGER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Paul's lack of credentials



Marcia Elston wrote:

>

..............massive snipping for brevity.............



I found this post much more hostile, ego driven, and spiteful than

anything I've read from Paul in the last couple months. I'm not sure why

Paul seems to drive some folks up the wall but what's happening now is

very similar to what I've seen in a barnyard among chickens that spy

another bird with a spec on their wing. Peck, peck, peck and a little

blood is spilled which draws a crowd of fowl all pecking their

cousin/kin to death. I'm generally a lurking student of information from

this list, but I'm genuinely appalled at the self righteousness and thin

skinned responses to Paul's style. As someone else commented today, if

you don't like it screen him out and lets get on with it. For self

styled "healers" with the "right stuff" it seems like a little humanity

wouldn't be amiss here.



mike

--

mbellah@voyager.net



"I force myself to contradict myself

    so as to avoid conforming to

    my own taste."

--Marcel Duchamp



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 21:28:05 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Tom Blake <TomBlake1@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Tabacco Alternatives



In a message dated 96-09-05 18:00:21 EDT, you write:



> Don't advertise on the list. There is ZERO reason why you could't simply

>  give out this formula and take nothing for it!

>

I did not advertise on the list I gave an aswer to a question and suggested

he contact me privately if he wanted more information, so as not to use list

space for details that may not interest everyone.  BTW Paul I do not make my

living selling herbs or advice so quit accusing me of doing so. If you have a

problem with what I say that is just your problem so deal with it.



Tom



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 19:13:33 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Joan <alan_grout@SUNSHINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds



At 08:25 PM 9/5/96 -0400, you wrote:

>At 06:41 PM 9/4/96 +0100, you wrote:



>And are there any others on this list that support this belief?  I don't

>recall seeing anyone agree with this particular point of view.  What do you

>say, lurkers?

>

>The Minimum Optimum Diet (as we call it in our Community) consists of a

>minimum amount of food necessary of optimal functioning and is optimally raw



<<<,snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip >>>>



aaaaarrrrrrggggg!!!!!!!





>

>And of course there's more.

>

>John.

>

JOAN



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 19:42:54 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Paul's lack of credentials



At 09:22 PM 9/5/96 +0000, michael bellah <mbellah@VOYAGER.NET> wrote:



>Marcia Elston wrote:

>>

>..............massive snipping for brevity.............

>

>I found this post much more hostile, ego driven, and spiteful than

>anything I've read from Paul in the last couple months. I'm not sure why

>Paul seems to drive some folks up the wall but what's happening now is

>very similar to what I've seen in a barnyard among chickens that spy

>another bird with a spec on their wing. Peck, peck, peck and a little

>blood is spilled which draws a crowd of fowl all pecking their

>cousin/kin to death. I'm generally a lurking student of information from

>this list, but I'm genuinely appalled at the self righteousness and thin

>skinned responses to Paul's style. As someone else commented today, if

>you don't like it screen him out and lets get on with it. For self

>styled "healers" with the "right stuff" it seems like a little humanity

>wouldn't be amiss here.

>

>mike

>--

>mbellah@voyager.net

>

>"I force myself to contradict myself

>    so as to avoid conforming to

>    my own taste."

>--Marcel Duchamp

>

Sorry, Mike, that wasn't my post you quoted.  I did post a response, however.

Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 00:01:35 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Terry King <terryk@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Tabacco Alternatives



Hi Sarena,



Are you aware that you have encoding turned on?  If you are using Win95

and are having trouble turning it off, I have some instructions saved

from another list that tells you how to turn it off so that it stays off.

 Just let me know.



I also wish to apologize if I offended you when I was attempting to point

out Paul's communication difficulties awhile back.  My intentions was not

to embroil you as a third party, its just that you put the point so well.

 I see now that the way to get Paul to listen is to establish some

credibility with him so that he does not lump one as a "New Age" goodie

two shoes.:-)



BTW, I have had some personal communications with Tom Blake.  He does

wholesale for Pure Herbs so he is selling products.  Personally I don't

object if someone sells products on the list or not, but it is nice to

know if someone is possibly biased on products because they do sell them.





Terry

terryk@juno.com





On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:19:03 -0800 Mahle Family <mahle@PTIALASKA.NET>

writes:

>------ =_NextPart_000_01BB9B0B.4C2EC660

>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>

>I'm confused! I thought Tom was offering a remedy and that if we had

>any =

>questions or needed other advice to contact him personally? What is he

>=

>advertising? Sarena

>

>----------

>From:   Paul Iannone[SMTP:pi2@LOOP.COM]

>Sent:   Wednesday, September 04, 1996 11:07 PM

>To:     Multiple recipients of list HERB

>Subject:        Re: Tabacco Alternatives

>

>>In a message dated 96-09-04 13:48:16 EDT, you write:

>>

>>> Is there any herbs out there

>>>  that help curb the insane cravings that occur in the 1st stages of

>>>  withdrawl?

>>>

>>>  I know there will be no substitute for tabacco, or quick fix, but

>i

>>>  know i'm gonna need some help here.

>>>

>>Hi Brian there is an herbal formula called ease off.  It contains =

>Arnica,

>>Catnip, Chamomile & Indian Tobacco.  It is used to break =

>addictions-alcohol,

>>caffine, overeating, Cigarettes, Drugs of all kinds, Sugar.  10-20 =

>drops on

>>tongue repeat as necessary when in distress.

>>

>>It is very true when you say it is not going to be a quick fix.

>After =

>all

>>your addiction did not happen overnight.

>>If you or anyone is interested please email me privately at

>>tomblake@ix.netcom.com

>>

>>To Your Health Naturally,

>>

>>Tom

>

>Don't advertise on the list. There is ZERO reason why you could't

>simply

>give out this formula and take nothing for it!

>

>Paul

>

>

>

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From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:23:05 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960905165450.00b1d054@mail.halcyon.com>



>I take a homeopathic

>remedy, Phyto B, for HRT, and I do better with it than synthetic HRT.  I

>believe the primary ingredient is Wild Yam, which is much touted these days.

>If you would like more information about this product, let me know.



You SELL a homeopathic remedy with this name. It is against list policy to

hawk products. KEEP THE ADS OFF THE LIST!



Paul



(the primary ingredient of any homeopathic agent is SUGAR or ALCOHOL.

Essence of Wild Yam is EVEN LESS likely to balance your hormones than Wild

Yam itself.)



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:38:20 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Frequent colds

In-Reply-To:  <960905142600_302128050@emout16.mail.aol.com>



>Tracy, by live foods I just mean raw veggies and fruits (as opposed to dead

>cow or overcooked til wilted veggies).

>

>Paul,  all I can say is that I guess time will tell.  For over a year we have

>felt great eating this way.  When we occasionally have a day where we eat

>otherwise we don't feel well.

>

>Karen Fite

>Tulsa, OK



Time HAS told. Point to a single culture that has lived on the diet you

have chosen, other than perhaps the Polynesians. Of all humans who have

lived, 99% have eaten a cooked food centric diet. That is for a reason.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:40:17 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Tabacco Alternatives

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960905181444.00b23fc4@mail.halcyon.com>



>There are some essential oils that help calm the nervous system and

>strengthen resolve.  My company manufacturers an aromatherapy blend (ADIXION

>tm)  that is slightly sedative, gentle action to dissolve disharmony and

>stregthen decision making.  Antidepressant, balancing and detoxifying,  it

>includes essential oils of Myrtle, Cedarwood, Pine, Juniper Berry, Angelica,

>Lavender Flower, Clary Sage, Lemon, Mimosa and Sweet Basil.



Do your selling somewhere else. This is not a commercial list, and btw the

'aromatic' in the title of this list DOES NOT refer to scents. It is a

CHEMICAL description.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:42:33 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Dehydration

In-Reply-To:  <322F20F0@mailgw.decisionsys.com>



>I went to a talk given by a nutritionist a couple of years ago and she

>said that by the time most people feel thirsty, they are already

>dehydrated.  I believe that this is what Paul was referring to

>(subclinical dehydration).



Exactly. And THE PRIMARY REASON why people go around dehydrated is that

coffee has damaged their natural sense of thirst.



>The symptoms that other people have described

>(dizziness etc) tend to occur when the dehydration has reached the point

>where you are going to be in serious trouble if you don't get fluids NOW.

>

>A side note, if you have trouble sleeping during hot weather the problem

>may be dehydration, and drinking several glasses of water may help you

>get to sleep.

>

>Mickie (mickie@decisionsys.com)



That's because the spirit sleeps in the Blood, and when it is abnormally

thick, Qi cannot flow normally, and the resulting Stagnation of Qi blocks

the spirit's ease.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:44:51 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes

In-Reply-To:  <v01540b01ae54976caa89@[206.173.76.44]>



>>Date:    Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:00:19 +0100

>>From:    Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

>>Subject: Re: no-fruit diet: more results

>>

>

>>As you will recall, hot flashes are a sign of significant health imbalance.

>>Merely not eating fruit will not balance the health (or Digestion) of

>>someone with significant health imbalances in other fields of the body (in

>>this case, the Liver and Kidneys).

>>

>>Paul

>

>What about menopausal hot flashes?

>

>Ellen



Same thing. There is really no reason why anyone should have hot flashes.

But as the Uterine Essence wanes (as Kidney and Liver Essence wane), YIN

factors, there is a real tendency for YANG factors to get out of balance.

Heat is just that sort of thing. A properly nourished life doesn't develop

a gross depletion of Uterine Essence, and aging is slow and gentle, without

abnormal, uncomfortable, and unpleasant disease signs such as these.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:48:49 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats

In-Reply-To:  <v01540b02ae5499a7308b@[206.173.76.44]>



>>Well, you drop the coffee entirely first off. That's non-negociable in this

>>regard.



>>Paul

>

>Isn't it not a good idea to quit drinking coffee "cold turkey"?  Forget

>where I read/heard this, but the body supposedly goes through withdrawals

>from the caffeine, causing headaches.  Wouldn't it be better to slowly

>decrease coffee intake?

>

>Ellen



Indeed, I agree. It was not my intention to suggest otherwise, but you see

the problem. People madly defend such foul habits, and they MUST be

confronted with the necessity to QUIT ENTIRELY. Not necessarily tomorrow

morning, but the will to cease coffee drinking entirely within a few weeks

must be there. Otherwise, people rationalize their cup a day, and pride

themselves on 'cutting back.'



Btw, 'decaf' is not a solution. The entire drink is antithetical to good

health in people of this society. My urban relatives in Colombia are also

harmed by their consumption of coffee, but the actual pickers may be less

harmed due to the rural nature of their lifestyle. I don't mean to demonize

coffee, but I CERTAINLY mean to warn users in THIS society that their habit

is ruining specific aspects of their lives.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:56:06 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Paul's lack of credentials

In-Reply-To:  <v02140b00ae54d2de5e84@[129.219.5.51]>



>There is nothing inherent about formal education which would preclude a

>person from also gaining wisdom about acupressure channels or "Qi", a term

>which I assume Paul means "Chi", or energy flow.



Qi is not really 'energy flow.' [Chi is an old spelling, no longer standard.]



The current formal education does not teach awareness of Qi. It is not the

formality that prevents this. It is the materialist bias of these times. In

order to perceive Qi, you have to be a spirit. Which means, in this

parlance, that you have to be vicerally convinced that objects are not as

solid as they seem, and you have to have discovered the innate order of the

Qi of living beings.



>We are all connected to

>Spirit, Paul.  It is not your private domain.



Sure, as the Lao Zi says, 'Even a fool uses the Dao constantly.' But we are

not all CONSCIOUS as spirits, so that connection is rather useless in this

regard. I almost never meet someone like me who feels the Qi flow in the

bodies he passes, and is DRIVEN to heal because it is so unpleasant to

experience the cramp others take for granted.



>--

>Nancy Goren

> nancy@tux.music.asu.edu



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 00:11:20 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Paul's lack of credentials

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.3.89.9609051340.A24927-0100000@vifa1>



>I find value in a number of different healing arts yet in my exploration

>of the healing arts TCM is the only one that comes across as a cohesive

>system for health maintainance.



Part of my point was that TCM is not Chinese healing per se. It is a modern

reduction of certain aspects of Chinese healing, to the exclusion of others.



>And yes I have Ted J. Kaptchuck's _The

>Web That Has No Weaver_. I think that those on list who are befuddled by

>terms within the TCM system would have some comprehension of them if they

>read this book.



This is what I meant by a little research. It is not that hard to get that

book, and I will respond to questions about basic terms, but not if they

are couched in some sort of accusation that I am being stingy (hardly...I

spend a couple of hours a day answering e-mail), or the usual 'how can you

expect people to listen if you are so harsh.'



Listen, there is a HUGE need for harshnesss here. Disease is rampant, and

truly harsh. In the old days, healers were fierce characters, as befits

spirits. You think you could siddle up to a traditional Navajo healer and

have them coddle your disease-causing behaviors? HA! They would put you in

a pine needle sweat until you were done with that crap FOR GOOD, and if you

walked off instead of taking your nasty-tasting medicine, they would go

back to shelling nuts and enjoying the day! To hell with you! People have

really gone overboard in their spoiled, consumer-culture, egocentric idea

that healers are supposed to lick their sores and pat you on the head with

platitudes about how WONDERFUL you are. No thanks. I would just as soon tie

you to a stake and burn you to the ground.



>Regardless there are some personal questions and concerns I have for you.



Sure. "-)



>I am taking Duralith (lithium) and clonazepam for bipolar affective

>disorder. Infrequently I take low doses of neuroleptics. My former diagnosis

>was schizophrenia. Regardless of the diagnosis my concern is the

>suggested damage that these drugs can have over a prolonged period of use.



How long have you been taking these drugs?



>At one time I took Chinese herbal tea preparations of sometimes 16

>different herbs prescribed through the assessment of my pulse and patterns.

>Concerns arose from the TCM doctor treating me of the interactiveness of

>my psychiatric medication and the herbs.



I don't think that is a significant concern. Nor do I utilize the idea of

pulsing to determine herbal formulas. Pulsing is an acupuncturist's

technique. Herbalists traditionally did very little of it.



>And wonder one can take less

>herbs for a specific condition such mine following TCM application. Cost

>is one facor I have to consider.



You have to address what imbalances are there, with the most

economical/minimal approach possible in ALL cases. But the fact is that

Chinese healing never treated mental illness very much. Such illnesses were

sent to spirit healers for therapy (exorcists, monks, seers...that sort of

thing).



>If at all possible I would like to diminish my use of at least the

>clonazepam or even not take these two medications at all if I knew there

>was some alternative to them. *Note* this is not a rash thought but a

>consideration that has occured to me for some time. Of course I know

>such an endevour carries risks.



Life carries risk.



>My question to you 1s what herbs would you identify would be helpful

>for my mood stablization.



What is the CAUSE of your mood instability? That is the approach needed.



>Apart from cyclic depression, I have experience

>some degree of parnoia, amotivation, low sex drive, memory and

>concentration problems (more recent) and borderline pschotic experiences

>through the winter months.



And you have tried the SAD therapy (bright lights)?



>The depression occurs most in the summer and

>winter months. Currently my mood is stabler. Major psychotic episodes

>have been a past concern (age 16-21. Current age 34).

>

>Other complaints are nerve comprehension at wrist, but predominantly down

>my left side from the should and neck through the back down through the

>hip to the foot. Sometimes the pain and immoblization corresponds to

>emotional upsets. The nerve comprepression is as much a concern as my

>"mental illness".



If you were in L.A., I would treat that imbalance with the strong

acupressure I do. Herbs won't touch it.



>I do taijiquan. Am trying to diminish daily coffee use. I daily use

>nettle and peppermint tea, goat's whey and Ginkgo biloba. My lifestyle is

>sedindary. I am not a vegitarian. Very little fruit in my diet. Rarely drink

>alcoholic beverages and take no other recreational drugs.

>

>I do recall you saying that to the effect chronic diseases such as

>schizophrenia are not treatable or not very responsive to treatment.

>

>Anyway I have given you this information with the consideration that you

>may be able to provide me with at least some guidance in respect to my

>condition. If there is any further information you need I will provide it.

>

>Dan



Seek out a local acupressurist, or Shiatzuist. You need bodywork.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 00:48:41 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Tabacco Alternatives

In-Reply-To:  <960905212801_278343472@emout19.mail.aol.com>



>In a message dated 96-09-05 18:00:21 EDT, you write:

>

>> Don't advertise on the list. There is ZERO reason why you could't simply

>>  give out this formula and take nothing for it!

>>

>I did not advertise on the list I gave an aswer to a question and suggested

>he contact me privately if he wanted more information, so as not to use list

>space for details that may not interest everyone.  BTW Paul I do not make my

>living selling herbs or advice so quit accusing me of doing so. If you have a

>problem with what I say that is just your problem so deal with it.

>

>Tom



It is against list policy to make commercial offers. Announcing that you

sell a formula is a commercial announcement, whether you put the price in

the post or not. Brand names are generally NOT needed in this discussion,

and almost always point to people who want to sell stuff.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 00:46:59 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Paul's lack of credentials

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960905195625.00b3d034@mail.halcyon.com>



>We are all

>healers, Paul, some of us just don't know it.



No, I don't believe that is true, in any particular sense that makes sense

to this discussion. Healing is for the most part a TECHNOLOGY. It is the

province of those who know that technology.



>Actual healing comes from the

>person afflicted,



No, I don't believe THAT is true. Healing is the result of the application

of the appropriate technology. If people could heal themselves, there would

be no chronic illness in the world.



>sometimes assisted by the healing hands or help or someone

>else.  I hope I don't get so full of my own healing capabilities that I

>forget that.



Pardon me if I don't join you in this fear.



>Healing is spirit chosen work, as you say.  Holistically, it also includes

>organic and physical components - many of which you have suggested to use.

>I acknowledge that you are a healer, and I am sometimes awed by your

>responses.  It is patience we seek from you and an effort to integrate your

>opinions and conclusions with our own.  Please share with us the giants

>whose shoulders you stand on; we could all benefit.



The giants I referred to are historical figures in Chinese healing,

herbalists of great prowess. There is very little to share about them,

though, other than to point at their legacy of hundreds of sophisticated

elegant therapies for specific imbalances. I also stand on the shoulders of

those who developed Taijiquan, which occured in the last 400 years; and on

the shoulders of those spirit figures who have crossed my path to my great

luck. Of those I prefer to remain silent.



>>I know what I do very well, but that doesn't mean that it can be explained

>>on a postage stamp to the whim of someone who can't be bothered to do basic

>>research, or who thinks that healing is a matter of paying money to a

>>healer.

>

>Your post is much larger than a postage stamp, but that is about the size of

>valuable information it contains for me.  Who are you referring to above?  I

>have seen no posts on the list indicating your accusations.



People regularly accuse me of stinginess. I have people who privately email

me with some frivolous demand for information they could very easily get

out of a book (what is the Latin name for sage, for instance), and then fly

into a rage when I decline to reply. Go figure. People figure if you give

something away for free then you are a beggar for their use of it! Ha! I

couldn't care less if you use or don't use what I say. Some do...it is for

them that I make this effort [and besides, I'm a blowhard, and this is my

entertainment].



>Your

>proclivity for mean spiritedness could interfere with your ability to heal,

>IMHO.



Well, it doesn't. People LOVE the precision of my criticisms. I get people

to change BECAUSE I am intensely mean and spirited.



>I do not doubt your skill.  I have seen healing occur, however, with no

>skill other than the resolve of the person afflicted. (Your reference to

>Nicolls is about self-healing.)



No, it was not. It was about simple therapies for people (soldiers) of high

vitality. It also had to do with clear seeing of what needed doing, and

leaving it at that.



>You have such a disdain for all methods, other than your own.



Not all methods, but that's called 'making assessments.' I am not one of

those people possessed of the idiocy that thinks that all things are true.



>What good is

>this exhalted knowledge of yours, if you cannot share and teach for the

>benefit of mankind?



Way too big an ideal for me. I'm a Daoist. We don't believe in shoeing

cows, or putting iron wings on butterflies.



> Healers are the ones who tell you the

>>hard truth that makes you free.

>

>Here, I must differ strongly.  Freedom only comes from changes within.

>Sometimes a gentle nudge is more effective than a battering ram.



Make the gentle nudge your province, then. I make no claim on being all

things to all people.



>My limited knowledge of the River of Life or Traditional Chinese Meridian

>System is that all matter is infused with a subtle energy known as chi or

>qi, which manifests itself through vibration, circulation adn waves of

>movement.



Qi is NOT subtle energy. Dog shit has Qi. Your mother's face has Qi. A

foggy day has Qi. A rock has Qi. None of these things has 'energy.'



>This qi flows along a network of channels called meridians which

>spread like an intricate web through the body.  It is sometimes likened to a

>second nervous system which forms a connnection between the physical body

>and the subtler energy system surrounding it.  It may also be perceived as

>an aura of light that may at times be colorful.



This has almost nothing to do with what the Chinese thought. Auras! The

Chinese didn't have this East-Indian idea of 'subtlety,' 'auras,' or a

'second nervous system.'



>According to the Chinese

>model I have viewed, there are 12 pairs of meridians, each pair associated

>with a different organ system or function.  I believe the first reference to

>this energy network is found in the Nei Ching or Yellow Emperor's Classic of

>Internal Medicine, written during the reign of the Emperor Huang Ti between

>2697 adn 2596 BC.



The Huang Di Nei Jing was written just before the Han Dynasty, about 200

BCE. It is not the oldest extant medical text any more...Mawangdui site

diggings unearthed an older text back in the 70s.



>The TCM that I know of offers various ways to promote the

>movement of energy to preserve well-being and encourage spiritual

>development.  The techniques of acupuncture and acupressure use knowledge of

>the meridians to clear energy blockages and heal illness.



Clearing blockages of Cold, Heat, Phlegm, Toxin, Qi and Blood bears VERY

little resemblance to what you are claiming.



>All QiGong

>masters have the ability to diagnose illness at a distance by reading the

>subtle anatomy.  According to QiGong master Zhi-xing Wang, any illness can

>be explained as an energy blockage in the body.



A common claim, among *modern* Qigong-ists. Clearly, this is not the view

of Chinese healers throughout the ages...they developed the largest herbal

system of cure in the world not for nothing!



>Circulation and movements

>of the subtle energy can clear this blockage.  I have also read that Dr.

>Hiroshi Motoyama, a researcher in Japan, devised a system of measuring the

>electrical characteristics of the 12 major meridians.  Known as the AMI.

>Dr. Motoyama has studied over 5,000 subjects and found strong correlations

>between meridians that are electrically out of balance and the presence of

>underlying disease in the associated organ.  Does this explanation fit a

>description of how you practice healing, Paul?



The Japanese have all sorts of weird ideas that have NOTHING to do with

Chinese healing. NO, this has nothing to do with me.



>Surely others than yourself have elevated to QiGong master?  Or, is this

>something you do not claim?



I do not claim to be a Qigong master. I don't DO Qigong, nor do I hold with

its views. I am a Taijiquanist...it is considerably different in its views

on these matters.



>Again, your rampant disdain for other

>individuals as well as other systems leads me to believe you might have a

>need to examine the possibility of thought disorders (such as delusion)

>yourself.  How might this disorder translate into TCM and how might it be

>treated?



I am tempted to use that wonderful piece of Anglo-Saxon verbal sorcery that

is one of the primary reasons why the human race still exists, but I'll

hold off. You may certainly apply it to yourself, though---along with that

equally wonderful bit of Germanic word magic *OFF*.



>How can you possibly heal humanity when you appear to despise it so?



I am not a healer of humanity. What a PREPOSTEROUS ideal.



>>It's like asking

>>your grandfather what right he has to spit on the porch.

>>

>>Paul

>>

>FYI, we learned a long time ago that spitting can cause the spread of

>infectious disease.  I might tell my grandfather that, and perhaps he would

>choose to act differently.



If he was any sort of elder, he would make sure your hiney wasn't worth

sitting on for a week for your cleverness.



>One can only hope the perfect analogy in this

>message is not lost.

>

>Regards,

>

>Marcia Elston



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 01:50:25 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Listen to the tune...

In-Reply-To:  <HERB%96090603234211@VM.EGE.EDU.TR>



>Paul the Piper is playing....

>

>You'll know he's playing when you see the ebb and flow of comments about

>him. He controls the list with stinging attacks. He controls it when you

>respond. He controls it when you defend yourself and controls it when you

>don't.



Etc. Funny how I don't seem to have a bunch of your substantive posts in my

save hopper, Ed! I guess it's too much work to actually post something of

value, eh?



I may be controversial, but I make good reading. Wish I could say the same

for you and your conspiracy theories.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:51:06 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Tom Blake <TomBlake1@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Tabacco Alternatives



In a message dated 96-09-06 02:13:52 EDT, you write:



> BTW, I have had some personal communications with Tom Blake.  He does

>  wholesale for Pure Herbs so he is selling products.  Personally I don't

>  object if someone sells products on the list or not, but it is nice to

>  know if someone is possibly biased on products because they do sell them.

>

>

>  Terry

>  terryk@juno.com



Dear Listmembers,



FYI my reply that I was not advertising and that I do not make my living

selling herbs or advice is true.  I am an independant distributor for Pure

Herbs because I have a chronic viral disease that I am treating with herbs

acupuncture etc.  I have learned a great deal about herbs and their use over

the years of treating this disease.  I became an independant distributor

because it was inexpensive to join, it is the only way to buy the product

wholesale, and I feel it is the best product I have found.



I do not sell these herbs as a business, I had entertained the idea but found

I did not have the time to start a second business.  I offer responses to the

questions based on the information I have learned through my association with

this company.  I tell people right up front in my private messages that I

recommend they become a distributor and buy their own products direct at

wholesale prices, I am not set up to sell the products unless I would buy

them and ship them to the individuals and hope they reimburse me.  Or expect

them to pay up front and hope that I will do my part.



The bottom line is I recommend these product because they have worked for me,

my family and freinds.  I apologize for taking up so much bandwidth with this

but I thought it needed to be said.



Tom



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:49:25 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Schi <rouge@EASYNET.CO.UK>

Organization: Original Synergy

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats



lesley bricker wrote:

>

> BB

> Schi

> I have heard that Evening Primrose Oil has helped people with hot

> flashes due to hormonal changes. I am on a menopause discussion list

> which is very informational on HRT and natural remedies for menopause.

> If you are interested, let me know and I will give you the address.

> Lesley



Yes, please...I would appreciate the address for that list. I've tried

Evening Primrose Oil, and Starflower Oil, which is supposed to be more

concentrated than Evening Primrose...they didn't seem to help. Which is

why I'd like to know about other possibilities. Thanks for the

information.



BB



Schi



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:55:00 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Sandow, Kay" <KSANDOW@HQ.ROW.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats



Please post list address for menopause.



Kay

 ----------

From: Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

To: Multiple recipients of list HERB

Subject: Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats

Date: Thursday, September 05, 1996 7:10PM



BB

Schi

I have heard that Evening Primrose Oil has helped people with hot flashes

due to hormonal changes. I am on a menopause discussion list which is

very informational on HRT and natural remedies for menopause. If you are

interested, let me know and I will give you the address.

Lesley



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:54:06 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Graham White Hendon Green Party <hendongreen@GN.APC.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Correction re: Oregon Grape



>Apparently some attempts are being made to cultivate Golden Seal. The

>information I recently received indicates that some sucess has resulted

>from this. But this is only into the third year of it's growth. For some

>unknown reason the cultivated plant decays in it's fourth year. (A very

>good reason for marketers to no stock or sell this herb <<HINT>>.



A quote from Greenfiles (1996:10[1]) under the title 'Goldenseal: A Popular

Cure for Almost Everything'



"The plant, which has traditionally been wild-harvested, is becoming

increasingly scarse and prices have risen sharply. However, ginseng growers

in the northern United States, Ontario and British Colombia are beginning to

cultivate goldenseal as well, so supplies are expected to stabilize in 5-10

years, the period required to harvest a crop from new plantings."

Herb Companion 1995, 8 (2) 75-7.







Graham White

HENDON GREEN PARTY



HENDONGREEN@GN.APC.ORG

gcw3@student.open.ac.uk

gw035@mdx.ac.uk



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:39:13 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats



At 11:23 PM 9/5/96 +0100, you wrote:

>>I take a homeopathic

>>remedy, Phyto B, for HRT, and I do better with it than synthetic HRT.  I

>>believe the primary ingredient is Wild Yam, which is much touted these days.

>>If you would like more information about this product, let me know.

>

>You SELL a homeopathic remedy with this name. It is against list policy to

>hawk products. KEEP THE ADS OFF THE LIST!

>

>Paul

>

>(the primary ingredient of any homeopathic agent is SUGAR or ALCOHOL.

>Essence of Wild Yam is EVEN LESS likely to balance your hormones than Wild

>Yam itself.)

>

Paul, I do not sell this homeopathic remedy.  My post reads...."I take a

homeopathic remedy..........." This is the second time in as many days that

you have made this mistake when someone has posted information about a

remedy."  Lighten up!

Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:41:38 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Wilson <MWilson780@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: yucca root



Charity, from what I understand the leaves from the Yucca Plant are used as

an "antiarthritic".  Something about it containing large quantities of

saponins which are said to have steroid derivatives.



Anyway, this is just what I had on it, but I am sure more qualified people on

this list can elaborate on this for us all.



Marcia



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:46:30 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Debbie Reisiger <DAR_HS@PICKERINGTON.K12.OH.US>

Organization: Pickerington Local School District

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats

In-Reply-To:  "Your message dated Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:55:00 -0400"

              <199609061356.JAA11292@svcs1.digex.net>



I would very much appreciate the address.  I am 44 and starting with pre-men.

symtoms - along with must of my friends.  We are a great bunch when we all get

together.



Debbie R.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:27:08 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Terry King <terryk@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Apology!



I apologize to everyone.  I meant to send my message to Sarena to her

privately not to the list.  I dashed it off quickly late at night when I

was very fatigued.



I did not mean to cast aspersions on anyone.  She simply asked a question

and I answered her with what information I had.



Tom you seem like a nice guy and I did not mean it as a flame just info

to Sarena.  I have been away and have not read much of what has

transpired in the last few days.  I should know better.



Again, my humble apologies to all.  (Now I will go pry my foot out of my

mouth!:-))



Terry

terryk@juno.com



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:31:21 -0600

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "P.L.D." <puanani@MICF.NIST.GOV>



Hello everyone,

Sorry to send that subscribe message, I forgot it would post to everyone on

the list. I was getting desperate, as I received a message to "confirm herb"

in order to stay on the list but nothing seemed to work (it kept bouncing

back). Would someone please tell me how I can stay subscribed? I lost my

original instructions a long time ago due to a drive crash.

Thank You so much,

Puanani



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Puanani L. Delara

ext. 5284

email  delara@boulder.nist.gov



"Nature gave man two ends - one to sit on and one to think with. Ever since

then man's success or failure has been dependent on the one he used

most."--George R. Kirkpatrick



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:47:13 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         lesley bricker <lbricke@BGNET.BGSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats

In-Reply-To:  <322FD785.7BF4@easynet.co.uk>



Here are the addresses for the menopause discussion lists. The first is

the "mother list" (all forms of HRT are discussed). The second list grew

from the first list and focusses more on natural approaches and remedies

for menopause. They are a great group of caring, supportive women. (Most

of the ladies are on both lists).



send message to: listserv@psuhmc.hmc.psu.edu

in body:         subscribe menopaus



2nd list

send message to: listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com

in body:         subscribe pnl yourfirstname yourlastname



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:54:02 -0600

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "P.L.D." <puanani@MICF.NIST.GOV>



Hello again,

Well maybe you all will not see the subscribe message, as I just received a

note from the listserv, I am trying that address. I hope it works.

Again thank you for your patience,

Puanani



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Puanani L. Delara

ext. 5284

email  delara@boulder.nist.gov



"Nature gave man two ends - one to sit on and one to think with. Ever since

then man's success or failure has been dependent on the one he used

most."--George R. Kirkpatrick



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:46:41 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Paul's lack of credentials



At 12:46 AM 9/6/96 +0100, you wrote:

>>

>>Actual healing comes from the

>>person afflicted,

>

>No, I don't believe THAT is true. Healing is the result of the application

>of the appropriate technology. If people could heal themselves, there would

>be no chronic illness in the world.



So, if a person alone on an island cuts his finger, he will not heal?

Poppycock, of course the human body is capable of healing itself.  People

can heal themselves, but they don't and there are myriad reasons for that,

but the ability is buried in each and every one of us.

>

>>My limited knowledge of the River of Life or Traditional Chinese Meridian

>>System is that all matter is infused with a subtle energy known as chi or

>>qi, which manifests itself through vibration, circulation adn waves of

>>movement.

>

>Qi is NOT subtle energy. Dog shit has Qi. Your mother's face has Qi. A

>foggy day has Qi. A rock has Qi. None of these things has 'energy.'



Then, what is your definition of Qi?



>>According to the Chinese

>>model I have viewed, there are 12 pairs of meridians, each pair associated

>>with a different organ system or function.  I believe the first reference to

>>this energy network is found in the Nei Ching or Yellow Emperor's Classic of

>>Internal Medicine, written during the reign of the Emperor Huang Ti between

>>2697 adn 2596 BC.

>

>The Huang Di Nei Jing was written just before the Han Dynasty, about 200

>BCE. It is not the oldest extant medical text any more...Mawangdui site

>diggings unearthed an older text back in the 70s.



Would this be Pen Ts'ao Ching from the period of the Red Emperor, Shen-ung,

who reigned just before Huang Ti?  Is Li Shih Chen, who penned the sixteenth

century's Pen Ts'ao Kang Mu (General Compendium of Remedies) one of the

Giants you refer to?

>

>>All QiGong

>>masters have the ability to diagnose illness at a distance by reading the

>>subtle anatomy.  According to QiGong master Zhi-xing Wang, any illness can

>>be explained as an energy blockage in the body.

>

>A common claim, among *modern* Qigong-ists. Clearly, this is not the view

>of Chinese healers throughout the ages...they developed the largest herbal

>system of cure in the world not for nothing!



How is the way you read Qi different from that of a QiGong master?



O.K.  Let's set aside the meridians for a while and talk about Yin and Yang.

My understanding is that this concept is rooted in the rhythm and balance of

nature.  There are two basic and opposing principles that regulate the

Universe, and all phenomena are created by their continuous interplay.

These principles, called Yin and Yang, are natural opposites and may be

briefly defined:  Yang:  Male, light, hot, strong, positive, active, sun,

spring, summer.  Yin:  Female, dark, cold, weak, negative, passive, earth,

autum, winter.  (I know that a complete list of Yin-Yang contraries would be

endless.)  It is also my understanding that these concepts were developed by

Chinese herbalists over some five thousand years of compounding and

processing roots and herbs.  Just for conversation, let's assume that

western medicine is moving closer to understanding this concept because of

the discovery of the important functions and balance of the sympathetic and

parasympathetic nervous systems and the harmony required of both for

wellness.  I know that last sentence will unleash a tirade, but note I did

say "moving closer to understanding."



Let's also assume that some Chinese herbs are known by westerners by another

name, and some of the incomprehension for westerners can be demystified by

knowing the English and latin names.  For instance, Gingseng or Panax

shenseng is also known as Jenshen in Chinese.  Willow, Salix alba, is known

as Liu.  Willow bark tea is used in a number of cultures as well as in

Chinese culture for muscular rheumatism and various related ailments.

Ai-Hao is Mugwort; Artemisia vulgaris;  Han-Ch'in is Celery, Apium

graveolens; Hua-Shen-Yu is Peanut Oil and Pei-Ma is Castor Oil,  Ricinus

communis.  All of these have been used intra and cross-culturally for

rheumatism, arthritis and related ailments.  Whether the Chinese were the

first (and they probably were) to perfect these herbal applications is not

as important, IMO, as bridging the language and cultural gaps to move

towards a universal understanding of wellness for all humanity.  I believe

that the term concious evolution has some meaning, and like it or not, we

are all  (including you, Paul) ONE.



>I do not claim to be a Qigong master. I don't DO Qigong, nor do I hold with

>its views. I am a Taijiquanist...it is considerably different in its views

>on these matters.



Please elaborate the differences and explain what a Taijiquanist is, and

explain the basic philosophy.  Thanks in advance.



>>Again, your rampant disdain for other

>individuals as well as other systems leads me to believe you might have a

>need to examine the possibility of thought disorders (such as delusion)

>yourself.  How might this disorder translate into TCM and how might it be

>treated?



>I am tempted to use that wonderful piece of Anglo-Saxon verbal sorcery that

>is one of the primary reasons why the human race still exists, but I'll

>hold off. You may certainly apply it to yourself, though---along with that

>equally wonderful bit of Germanic word magic *OFF*



Well, I did bait youfor that one and your retort got a chuckle out of me

which is one form of healing, so thanks.



>If he was any sort of elder, he would make sure your hiney wasn't worth

>sitting on for a week for your cleverness.



So, if we don't agree with information that comes to us, it's o.k. to

physically violate the messenger?  Hmmmmm.



Walk in Wellness.





.



Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:49:43 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Tabacco Alternatives

In-Reply-To:  <960906095106_195634704@emout10.mail.aol.com>



>The bottom line is I recommend these product because they have worked for me,

>my family and freinds.  I apologize for taking up so much bandwidth with this

>but I thought it needed to be said.

>

>Tom



This is still a noncommercial list, which means that brand names should

generally NOT be used. Entrepreneurs usually think they are saving the

world because their products are the 'ones that have really worked for my

family and friends' etc. Sorry, not buying that.



Talk about the HERBS. Forget about the brand names and the coy 'write me

for more information' crap.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:52:54 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats

In-Reply-To:  <322FD785.7BF4@easynet.co.uk>



>lesley bricker wrote:

>>

>> BB

>> Schi

>> I have heard that Evening Primrose Oil has helped people with hot

>> flashes due to hormonal changes. I am on a menopause discussion list

>> which is very informational on HRT and natural remedies for menopause.

>> If you are interested, let me know and I will give you the address.

>> Lesley

>

>Yes, please...I would appreciate the address for that list. I've tried

>Evening Primrose Oil, and Starflower Oil, which is supposed to be more

>concentrated than Evening Primrose...they didn't seem to help. Which is

>why I'd like to know about other possibilities. Thanks for the

>information.

>

>BB

>

>Schi



As I tried to clarify in a previous post, EPO will ONLY work if you have a

very specific defect in your metabolism, namely an inability to efficiently

convert omega-6 fats in your diet (which is rife in them) to the

intermediary that EPO is a source for. Otherwise, you are wasting your

money. If you take it and it doesn't make a big difference, FORGET IT!



Note that the Evening Primrose may have other herbal effects, but the oil

extract is used for this specific reason.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:58:43 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960906153913.00b378c0@mail.halcyon.com>



>Paul, I do not sell this homeopathic remedy.  My post reads...."I take a

>homeopathic remedy..........." This is the second time in as many days that

>you have made this mistake when someone has posted information about a

>remedy."  Lighten up!

>Marcia Elston



YOU DO SELL PRODUCTS, and you occasionally try to sell them here, and you

will stop doing that or I will ask the listkeeper to eliminate you from the

list.I have zero tolerance for commercialism on the list, Marcia.



This particular product is not even herbal, so it doesn't belong here at

all. And I would think that even if you did mention it, people would be

able to figure out that they could email you for more information without

you saying it.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:09:24 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: yucca root

In-Reply-To:  <960906134137_517119176@emout09.mail.aol.com>



>Charity, from what I understand the leaves from the Yucca Plant are used as

>an "antiarthritic".  Something about it containing large quantities of

>saponins which are said to have steroid derivatives.

>

>Anyway, this is just what I had on it, but I am sure more qualified people on

>this list can elaborate on this for us all.

>

>Marcia



I am sure Michael Moore is an expert on this subject, but let me just say

that 'saponins' are soap-like, and may cause diarrhea if overconsumed. This

soapy nature may 'wash' the joints, though....it is a demulcent plant. I'm

not sure that anyone knows why yucca relieves arthritic pain. If it is a

steroidal effect, then a reduction in inflamation would be seen, it seems,

and that suggests that it would be mainly for *Hot*-types of arthritic pain.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:32:00 PST

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Charity L Hagen <crzy4birds@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bilberry,help for Cathy



Hello Cathy,

Please contact me by private email at crzy4birds@juno.com.  I know of

several places that sell herbs to get rid of cancer, and from what I

hear, they work quite well.

Charity Hagen

crzy4birds@juno.com

On Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:14:21 -0400 Cathy Herring <JHerrfam@AOL.COM> writes:

>I would also like a copy too!  I am also interested in any help about

>herbs

>in general.  I have cancer and am looking for help to beat it down.

>

>

>Cathy Herring

>1023 Janet Street

>Ypsilanti,  MI  48198

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:39:58 PST

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Charity L Hagen <crzy4birds@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Tabacco Alternatives



He never said he wanted to sell it!

Charity



On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:40:17 +0100 Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM> writes:

>>There are some essential oils that help calm the nervous system and

>>strengthen resolve.  My company manufacturers an aromatherapy blend

>(ADIXION

>>tm)  that is slightly sedative, gentle action to dissolve disharmony

>and

>>stregthen decision making.  Antidepressant, balancing and

>detoxifying,  it

>>includes essential oils of Myrtle, Cedarwood, Pine, Juniper Berry,

>Angelica,

>>Lavender Flower, Clary Sage, Lemon, Mimosa and Sweet Basil.

>

>Do your selling somewhere else. This is not a commercial list, and btw

>the

>'aromatic' in the title of this list DOES NOT refer to scents. It is a

>CHEMICAL description.

>

>Paul

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:38:54 PST

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Charity L Hagen <crzy4birds@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats



He never said he sold it.  He takes it and he probably knows where to buy

it at.

Charity Hagen

On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:23:05 +0100 Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM> writes:

>>I take a homeopathic

>>remedy, Phyto B, for HRT, and I do better with it than synthetic HRT.

> I

>>believe the primary ingredient is Wild Yam, which is much touted

>these days.

>>If you would like more information about this product, let me know.

>

>You SELL a homeopathic remedy with this name. It is against list

>policy to

>hawk products. KEEP THE ADS OFF THE LIST!

>

>Paul

>

>(the primary ingredient of any homeopathic agent is SUGAR or ALCOHOL.

>Essence of Wild Yam is EVEN LESS likely to balance your hormones than

>Wild

>Yam itself.)

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:06:52 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         John Stankiewicz <radiant@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject:      Re: yucca root



At 01:09 PM 9/6/96 +0100, you wrote:

>>Charity, from what I understand the leaves from the Yucca Plant are used as

>>an "antiarthritic".  Something about it containing large quantities of

>>saponins which are said to have steroid derivatives.

>>

>>Anyway, this is just what I had on it, but I am sure more qualified people on

>>this list can elaborate on this for us all.

>>

>>Marcia

>

>I am sure Michael Moore is an expert on this subject, but let me just say

>that 'saponins' are soap-like, and may cause diarrhea if overconsumed. This

>soapy nature may 'wash' the joints, though....it is a demulcent plant. I'm

>not sure that anyone knows why yucca relieves arthritic pain. If it is a

>steroidal effect, then a reduction in inflamation would be seen, it seems,

>and that suggests that it would be mainly for *Hot*-types of arthritic pain.

>

>Paul

>

I've noticed that Yucca works for a while and then they start complaining

that it no longer works.  So it doesn't seem to get at the cause.



John.

http://www.radiant-living.com (where we try to avoid premature cognitive

commitments or old paradigms and present new ones!)

The average person has about 65,000 thoughts a day.  What is disconcerting

is that more than 95% of the thoughts are the same ones as the person had

yesterday.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:19:02 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Autumn Henriks <autumnh@TRANSPORT.COM>

Subject:      Master Herbalist?



Hi All,



I am thinking about going to a local school (The American Herbal Institute

in Salem, Oregon) that offers a course that certifies you to become a Master

Herbalist. What I was wondering is, what is a Master Herbalist qualified to

do? Can you prescribe Herbal remedies to people legally? I'm also wondering

if there is a National Association or some type of accreditation program I

should be looking for in a school. I was told that the State of Oregon does

not have an accreditation program for herbal studies and that the credits

earned in this school could not be transfered to another school. Is there

any Herbal school in the USA that actually legaly certifies you?



Confused and wanting to learn,



Autumn



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:28:11 PST

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Charity L Hagen <crzy4birds@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      more about yucca root



Hello everyone,

I have yet another question about yucca root.  They sell yucca root in my

local grocery store for real cheap.  I would like to know if there is any

way to prepare it for eating without getting rid of the medicinal

qualities.  I don't know if just plain cooking it would destroy all the

properties or what.  Does anyone know how they grind up all those herbs

into fine powders?  Some things like yucca root are so moist yet they

can grind it up into a dry powder.  Interesting.

Charity Hagen

crzy4birds@juno.com



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:25:42 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats



At 12:58 PM 9/6/96 +0100, you wrote:

>>Paul, I do not sell this homeopathic remedy.  My post reads...."I take a

>>homeopathic remedy..........." This is the second time in as many days that

>>you have made this mistake when someone has posted information about a

>>remedy."  Lighten up!

>>Marcia Elston

>

>YOU DO SELL PRODUCTS, and you occasionally try to sell them here, and you

>will stop doing that or I will ask the listkeeper to eliminate you from the

>list.I have zero tolerance for commercialism on the list, Marcia.

>

>This particular product is not even herbal, so it doesn't belong here at

>all. And I would think that even if you did mention it, people would be

>able to figure out that they could email you for more information without

>you saying it.

>

>Paul

>

Yes I do sell products, Paul. However,  I have never blatantly tried to sell

anything on this list; I assume if people are interested they will contact

us.  I have mentioned the INGREDIENTS (Essential oils) in one of our

products because I thought those were of help to someone.  All of these

ingredients are available from me and numerous other purveyors of

herbs-essential oils.  IMO essential oils are derived from plants and herbs,

so their discussion might occasionally be appropriate here.  I think there

are others on the list whose tolerance counts as much as yours.  Go ahead

and ask the listkeeper to eliminate me; I think a review of my posts will

convey no reason to do such a thing.  There you go, acting like GOD again!



Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:42:14 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Healing, was Re: Paul's lack of credentials

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960906184641.00afd070@mail.halcyon.com>



>At 12:46 AM 9/6/96 +0100, you wrote:

>>>

>>>Actual healing comes from the

>>>person afflicted,

>>

>>No, I don't believe THAT is true. Healing is the result of the application

>>of the appropriate technology. If people could heal themselves, there would

>>be no chronic illness in the world.

>

>So, if a person alone on an island cuts his finger, he will not heal?

>Poppycock, of course the human body is capable of healing itself.  People

>can heal themselves, but they don't and there are myriad reasons for that,

>but the ability is buried in each and every one of us.



You have failed to grasp the distinction between CHRONIC illness and acute.



>>>My limited knowledge of the River of Life or Traditional Chinese Meridian

>>>System is that all matter is infused with a subtle energy known as chi or

>>>qi, which manifests itself through vibration, circulation adn waves of

>>>movement.

>>

>>Qi is NOT subtle energy. Dog shit has Qi. Your mother's face has Qi. A

>>foggy day has Qi. A rock has Qi. None of these things has 'energy.'

>

>Then, what is your definition of Qi?



Qi is best translated 'influence.' Something's Qi influences a perceiver.

An Organ's Qi influences areas of the body. A Channel's Qi influences a

specific pathway of the body. This is not a quantifiable flow of energy,

though it is convenient to speak that way...this is, however, highly

inaccurate and creates massive misunderstanding of what is being discussed.



>>>According to the Chinese

>>>model I have viewed, there are 12 pairs of meridians, each pair associated

>>>with a different organ system or function.  I believe the first reference to

>>>this energy network is found in the Nei Ching or Yellow Emperor's Classic of

>>>Internal Medicine, written during the reign of the Emperor Huang Ti between

>>>2697 adn 2596 BC.

>>

>>The Huang Di Nei Jing was written just before the Han Dynasty, about 200

>>BCE. It is not the oldest extant medical text any more...Mawangdui site

>>diggings unearthed an older text back in the 70s.

>

>Would this be Pen Ts'ao Ching from the period of the Red Emperor, Shen-ung,

>who reigned just before Huang Ti?



That is also historical nonsense. Shennong means Spirit Farmer. It is the

equivalent of Ceres, goddess of the grains, though there may have been a

king with that nomen. Nonetheless, that king never wrote that book.



Bencao Jing is a generic term that means, essentially, 'herbal.' This would

be like describing an early European herbal as having one author. Bencao

are extant from late Han onward.



>Is Li Shih Chen, who penned the sixteenth

>century's Pen Ts'ao Kang Mu (General Compendium of Remedies) one of the

>Giants you refer to?



No. Li Shizhen was the ultimate encyclopedist of herbs, it is true, but he

wrote few important formulas. This 'Pen Ts'ao' is of course the same as

above...it refers, roughly, to what we know as Materia Medica, NOT to

'remedies,' such as would be found in Formularies. The great

formula-writers were people like Zhang Zhongjing, Li Dongyuan....



>>>All QiGong

>>>masters have the ability to diagnose illness at a distance by reading the

>>>subtle anatomy.  According to QiGong master Zhi-xing Wang, any illness can

>>>be explained as an energy blockage in the body.

>>

>>A common claim, among *modern* Qigong-ists. Clearly, this is not the view

>>of Chinese healers throughout the ages...they developed the largest herbal

>>system of cure in the world not for nothing!

>

>How is the way you read Qi different from that of a QiGong master?



Probably the experience is the same. It is the *interpretation* of the

experience that differs. And I am pointing out that modern Qigongists

interpret that experience in a way that does NOT reflect the central

tradition of Chinese healing.



>O.K.  Let's set aside the meridians



They should be translated 'Channels.' Meridians are straight lines that

divide a globe from pole to pole. The Channels are not like that.



>for a while and talk about Yin and Yang.

>My understanding is that this concept is rooted in the rhythm and balance of

>nature.  There are two basic and opposing principles that regulate the

>Universe, and all phenomena are created by their continuous interplay.

>These principles, called Yin and Yang, are natural opposites and may be

>briefly defined:  Yang:  Male, light, hot, strong, positive, active, sun,

>spring, summer.  Yin:  Female, dark, cold, weak, negative, passive, earth,

>autum, winter.  (I know that a complete list of Yin-Yang contraries would be

>endless.)



Right, so this is simply a primary division of phenomena to produce a frame

for parametrization. There isn't a 'thing' called Yin.



>It is also my understanding that these concepts were developed by

>Chinese herbalists over some five thousand years of compounding and

>processing roots and herbs.



The theory wasn't developed by the herbalists. It was innate to archaic

Man, just as the Greeks and Egyptians and early East-Indians all had such

parameters in their worldview. It is hard to imagine NOT developing such

concepts if you lived a natural life in this fundamentally binary world.



>Just for conversation, let's assume that

>western medicine is moving closer to understanding this concept because of

>the discovery of the important functions and balance of the sympathetic and

>parasympathetic nervous systems and the harmony required of both for

>wellness.  I know that last sentence will unleash a tirade, but note I did

>say "moving closer to understanding."



Conventional medicine is interested in chemical entities. It is not

interested per se in nonclinical (in this sense, unmeasurable with

machines, and irrational, that is not linked to chemical processes)

parameters.



>Let's also assume that some Chinese herbs are known by westerners by another

>name, and some of the incomprehension for westerners can be demystified by

>knowing the English and latin names.  For instance, Gingseng or Panax

>shenseng is also known as Jenshen in Chinese.



Ginseng is of course the English version of Renshen. The botannical

nomenclature is Panax ginseng.



>Willow, Salix alba, is known

>as Liu.  Willow bark tea is used in a number of cultures as well as in

>Chinese culture for muscular rheumatism and various related ailments.

>Ai-Hao is Mugwort; Artemisia vulgaris;  Han-Ch'in is Celery, Apium

>graveolens; Hua-Shen-Yu is Peanut Oil and Pei-Ma is Castor Oil,



Well, Bima *You* ('yu'), if you insist. 'You' means oil. China was the

largest, most advanced society in the world for nearly two millenia. Plants

from all over came to China; China is THE source for MOST of the ornamental

shrubs in current use. Nonetheless, this sharing of species doesn't mean

that there is great commonality in the various systems of healing that used

these species.



>Ricinus

>communis.  All of these have been used intra and cross-culturally for

>rheumatism, arthritis and related ailments.  Whether the Chinese were the

>first (and they probably were) to perfect these herbal applications



Chinese healing does NOT use these herbs singly. Chinese healing is FORMULA

healing.



>is not

>as important, IMO, as bridging the language and cultural gaps to move

>towards a universal understanding of wellness for all humanity.



Good luck. You have a deficient understanding of the paradigmatic

differences that will ALWAYS divide these systems. Synthesists focus on the

commonality, but that does not give a real picture of what is before you.



>I believe

>that the term conscious evolution has some meaning, and like it or not, we

>are all  (including you, Paul) ONE.



I think that is nonsense. In fact, this idea, in my opinion, is

ANTI-humanist, because it obscures the real differences that makes us VITAL

as a race. Global human creativity is like species diversity. An

advantage---not something to be watered down into some sort of homogenous

monist mudpie.



>>I do not claim to be a Qigong master. I don't DO Qigong, nor do I hold with

>>its views. I am a Taijiquanist...it is considerably different in its views

>>on these matters.

>

>Please elaborate the differences and explain what a Taijiquanist is, and

>explain the basic philosophy.  Thanks in advance.



Well, this is pretty far afield from the topic of this list. Briefly,

Taijiquan aspires to return to the condition of the Taiji symbol (the

so-called Yin/Yang symbol). It proposes that there is a moment when the

unpolarized Infinity stirs and produces primal polarity, and that it is

possible to return to that moment, instead of living in the object realm

(the 'ten thousand things') that developed subsequently. Taijiquanists,

then, are not believers in the healing power of Qi, but rather in the

wholeness of the Taiji condition.



>>>Again, your rampant disdain for other

>>individuals as well as other systems leads me to believe you might have a

>>need to examine the possibility of thought disorders (such as delusion)

>>yourself.  How might this disorder translate into TCM and how might it be

>>treated?



>>If he was any sort of elder, he would make sure your hiney wasn't worth

>>sitting on for a week for your cleverness.

>

>So, if we don't agree with information that comes to us, it's o.k. to

>physically violate the messenger?  Hmmmmm.



It is a matter of propriety. Around power, you walk carefully.



>Marcia Elston



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:51:26 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bilberry,help for Cathy

In-Reply-To:  <19960906.135202.9782.0.crzy4birds@juno.com>



>Hello Cathy,

>Please contact me by private email at crzy4birds@juno.com.  I know of

>several places that sell herbs to get rid of cancer, and from what I

>hear, they work quite well.

>Charity Hagen



Name those herbs. What herbs work 'quite well' for cancer?!? Let's hear it.

Those of us who have lost parents to cancer KNOW how difficult treatment of

cancer is. People like YOU who suggest that there are simple solutions have

got some real explaining to do.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:53:13 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Tabacco Alternatives

In-Reply-To:  <19960906.135202.9782.8.crzy4birds@juno.com>



>He never said he wanted to sell it!

>Charity

>

>On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:40:17 +0100 Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM> writes:

>>>There are some essential oils that help calm the nervous system and

>>>strengthen resolve.  My company manufacturers



It is a commercial notice nonetheless. It doesn't matter if you don't use

the word 'sell' in your ad. This forum WILL remain noncommercial, or the

violators WILL disappear from it, without more warning than this.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:57:10 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Master Herbalist?

In-Reply-To:  <199609062119.OAA29479@mail.transport.com>



>Hi All,

>

>I am thinking about going to a local school (The American Herbal Institute

>in Salem, Oregon) that offers a course that certifies you to become a Master

>Herbalist. What I was wondering is, what is a Master Herbalist qualified to

>do?



NOTHING more than someone without that 'certification' can do. I was

pointing this out in my response, perhaps that point was buried by my

rhetoric. It is fundamentally misleading to call such diplomas

'certification.' You are NOT certified by these processes in any way that

has legal meaning in your state.



>Can you prescribe Herbal remedies to people legally?



NO!



>I'm also wondering

>if there is a National Association or some type of accreditation program I

>should be looking for in a school. I was told that the State of Oregon does

>not have an accreditation program for herbal studies and that the credits

>earned in this school could not be transfered to another school. Is there

>any Herbal school in the USA that actually legaly certifies you?

>

>Confused and wanting to learn,

>

>Autumn



There is NO legal privelege in coursework. To get licensure or

certification in a field, the state you live in has to have a licence that

you can apply for. Check in your state (national 'certification' means

nothing either). Usually you will need to become a Licensed acupuncturist,

a Chiropractor, or some sort. Some very few states allow Licensed

Naturopaths (California does not).



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:59:40 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: more about yucca root

In-Reply-To:  <19960906.142814.9782.10.crzy4birds@juno.com>



>Hello everyone,

>I have yet another question about yucca root.  They sell yucca root in my

>local grocery store for real cheap.  I would like to know if there is any

>way to prepare it for eating without getting rid of the medicinal

>qualities.  I don't know if just plain cooking it would destroy all the

>properties or what.  Does anyone know how they grind up all those herbs

>into fine powders?  Some things like yucca root are so moist yet they

>can grind it up into a dry powder.  Interesting.

>Charity Hagen

>crzy4birds@juno.com



According to Tierra: "The root is split lengthwise before drying (it should

be used only after it has been dried)...According to Michael Moore,

one-fourth ounce of the dried root boiled in a pint of water for fifteen

minutes may be taken in three or four doses throughout the day. It has the

ability to relieve pain for several days." Planetary Herbology, p. 232-3.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:04:26 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960906222542.00acbee0@mail.halcyon.com>



>Yes I do sell products, Paul. However,  I have never blatantly tried to sell

>anything on this list; I assume if people are interested they will contact

>us.



Then do not overtly invite private email replies to your posts.



>I have mentioned the INGREDIENTS (Essential oils) in one of our

>products because I thought those were of help to someone.



Totally appropriate if you leave out the name of your product (and the fact

that you sell the herbs you are discussing).



>All of these

>ingredients are available from me and numerous other purveyors of

>herbs-essential oils.



My point exactly. There is NO need to mention brand names.



>IMO essential oils are derived from plants and herbs,

>so their discussion might occasionally be appropriate here.



Agreed---that's why, for instance, I mentioned pine needle sweats. I simply

want to point out that the title of the list is not an intentional

encouragement to long posts about aromatherapy.



>I think there

>are others on the list whose tolerance counts as much as yours.  Go ahead

>and ask the listkeeper to eliminate me; I think a review of my posts will

>convey no reason to do such a thing.  There you go, acting like GOD again!

>

>Marcia Elston



I am simply telling you that your behavior is verging on a violation of

list policy. As for GOD, he has enough problems on his hands.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:11:12 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         John Stankiewicz <radiant@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject:      Re: Tabacco Alternatives



At 12:49 PM 9/6/96 +0100, you wrote:

>>The bottom line is I recommend these product because they have worked for me,

>>my family and freinds.  I apologize for taking up so much bandwidth with this

>>but I thought it needed to be said.

>>

>>Tom

>

>This is still a noncommercial list, which means that brand names should

>generally NOT be used. Entrepreneurs usually think they are saving the

>world because their products are the 'ones that have really worked for my

>family and friends' etc. Sorry, not buying that.

>

>Talk about the HERBS. Forget about the brand names and the coy 'write me

>for more information' crap.

>

>Paul



MMMMMMMhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmm............TaskMaster!  Yes.  Right on.

http://www.radiant-living.com (where we try to avoid premature cognitive

commitments or old paradigms and present new ones!)

The average person has about 65,000 thoughts a day.  What is disconcerting

is that more than 95% of the thoughts are the same ones as the person had

yesterday.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:43:34 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Healing, was Re: Paul's lack of credentials

Comments: To: Paul Iannone <pi2@loop.com>



I want to thank you for your last post in this thread, Paul, it did contain

valuable information and I appreciate it.



I do know the difference between the chronic and accute.  The term accute

suggests the presence of symptons with a rapid change in the patient's

condition from one day to the next,   Chronic implies a continuing disease

process with progressive deterioration.  An accute illness like stroke can

cause permanent disability, but that condition is not chronic.   I did cite

an accute example, but I have seen people heal themselves of long-term

chronic illness as well.  How do you explain the miraculous remissions, such

as Still's disease, or Juvenile excema, and other chronic conditions,   that

happen with no treatment whatsoever?  My belief system tells me that these

changes occur internally in the individual, and these changes cure the

disease.  Therefore, we are self healing.



I believe you mistook my meaning of oneness to mean that this concept would

do away with the wonderous racial and cultural differences that exist. It is

a concept that transends and embraces all humanity (maybe beyond) and

encourages the rich diversity as well as the sharing of ideas and systems

that might benefit the human race in the future.  I have a great respect and

admiration for cultural diversity  and in no way intimated that it should be

watered down into one homogenous race of humans.  I simply meant that we are

all part(s) of the same universe (entity.)



I do agree with some of your observations of western medicine.  Greed and

adversity to change seems to have clogged the machinery of progress.

Perhaps with the same amount of time the Chinese had to develop and perfect

medical systems, westerners will find their way.  Isn't this list one of the

positive influences for that, in spite of the individual differences?



Regards,















>Paul

>

>

Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:50:43 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bilberry,help for Cathy



At 12:32 PM 9/6/96 PST, you wrote:

>Hello Cathy,

>Please contact me by private email at crzy4birds@juno.com.  I know of

>several places that sell herbs to get rid of cancer, and from what I

>hear, they work quite well.

>Charity Hagen

>crzy4birds@juno.com

>On Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:14:21 -0400 Cathy Herring <JHerrfam@AOL.COM> writes:

>>I would also like a copy too!  I am also interested in any help about

>>herbs

>>in general.  I have cancer and am looking for help to beat it down.

>>

>>

>>Cathy Herring

>>1023 Janet Street

>>Ypsilanti,  MI  48198

>>

>

Hi Cathy,



This post is not intended to diagnose or treat illness.  There is a

combination of herbs, called Essiac Tea, the recipe for preparation (quite

elaborate) was published in the Herb Companion some time back.  There are

commercial versions of this tea, also.  I DO NOT SELL ANY.  You can contact

the Herb Companion to obtain this back issue:  Interweave Press, 201 East

Fourth Street, Loveland, CO 80537-5655.  Good luck.



Regards,



Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:11:04 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats



At 04:04 PM 9/6/96 +0100, you wrote:

>>Yes I do sell products, Paul. However,  I have never blatantly tried to sell

>>anything on this list; I assume if people are interested they will contact

>>us.

>

>Then do not overtly invite private email replies to your posts.



Paul, one last post on this item.  The reason I invited a private reply (for

a product I use, not sell)  is that I've lost my reading glasses and the

print on the damn bottle is too fine for me to read.  I figured I'd get out

the old magnifying glasses if the person was interested enough to want more

information.  For crying out loud, we don't all have ulterior motives on

this list.

>

>>I have mentioned the INGREDIENTS (Essential oils) in one of our

>>products because I thought those were of help to someone.

>

. There is NO need to mention brand names.



Does one little seven letter transgression here warrant being thrown off the

list?  I'll be sure not to repeat this infraction.

>

. As for GOD, he has enough problems on his hands.



Well, we might differ again.  Don't you mean "she?"



Regards,



>

Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 7 Sep 1996 05:17:05 +0200

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ed Taylor <etaylor@RIPPERS.COM>

Subject:      Re: Tabacco Alternatives



you wrote:

>violators WILL disappear from it, without more warning than this.

>

>Paul

>





Give your threats a break Paul...if the moderator of this list paid any

attention to the rules that are supposed to govern it (Archives 3/96), you

would be the first to be given the royal delete. Consider yourself lucky

since this is the only list that will still accept your posts and

behavior...would you like a list of those you have been removed from to

refresh you memory...enough is enough...



ET





From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:53:17 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Laura Kline <lstk8888@FRONTIERNET.NET>

Organization: Frontier Internet

Subject:      Re: Tabacco Alternatives



Paul Iannone wrote:

>

> >He never said he wanted to sell it!

> >Charity

> >

> >On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:40:17 +0100 Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM> writes:

> >>>There are some essential oils that help calm the nervous system and

> >>>strengthen resolve.  My company manufacturers

>

> It is a commercial notice nonetheless. It doesn't matter if you don't use

> the word 'sell' in your ad. This forum WILL remain noncommercial, or the

> violators WILL disappear from it, without more warning than this.

>

> PaulI am new to this list, does the above mean that you, Paul, are the list

owner?

Laura



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 23:19:10 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Healing, was Re: Paul's lack of credentials

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960907004334.00ae8260@mail.halcyon.com>



>I do know the difference between the chronic and acute.  The term accute

>suggests the presence of symptons with a rapid change in the patient's

>condition from one day to the next,   Chronic implies a continuing disease

>process with progressive deterioration.



No, progressive deterioration is not a necessary component.



>An acute illness like stroke can

>cause permanent disability, but that condition is not chronic.



Any disability is by definition chronic.



>I did cite

>an acute example, but I have seen people heal themselves of long-term

>chronic illness as well.  How do you explain the miraculous remissions, such

>as Still's disease, or Juvenile excema, and other chronic conditions,   that

>happen with no treatment whatsoever?



I describe these events as the movement of the active site of the

underlying disease state. I see no reason to call these events 'cure'

necessarily.



>My belief system tells me that these

>changes occur internally in the individual, and these changes cure the

>disease.  Therefore, we are self healing.



Oh, come off it. A few miraculous examples (which the above aren't even)

doesn't  go very far towards making such overreaching statements of 'fact.'

The OVERWHELMING evidence is that people do NOT cure themselves from

chronic disease.



>I believe you mistook my meaning of oneness to mean that this concept would

>do away with the wonderous racial and cultural differences that exist. It is

>a concept that transends and embraces all humanity (maybe beyond) and

>encourages the rich diversity as well as the sharing of ideas and systems

>that might benefit the human race in the future.



Ah, I see. It is of what value then? The method of this ideal is to obscure

the real differences in tradition, culture, experience, and awareness. How

is that useful?



>I have a great respect and

>admiration for cultural diversity  and in no way intimated that it should be

>watered down into one homogenous race of humans.  I simply meant that we are

>all part(s) of the same universe (entity.)



And? That doesn't mean anything in the regard of understanding paradigms.

Paradigms control your perception and conception. The pretence that YOU can

be 'universal' is childish and absurd, and factually wrong. At most, you

can reach a few paradigms in an entire lifetime, so the argument that you

can include and judge the 'includibility' of everything is nonsense.



Figure in order to understand Chinese healing with the depth necessary to

compare it to other systems you need to at least read Chinese. How many

such languages can you learn in a lifetime? A handful.



>I do agree with some of your observations of western medicine.  Greed and

>adversity to change seems to have clogged the machinery of progress.



It is a paradigm. Paradigms don't result from greed or adversity to change.

They are the fundamental context that millions of humans share in their

perception and conception of existence. It takes a long, long time for such

things to give way.



>Perhaps with the same amount of time the Chinese had to develop and perfect

>medical systems, westerners will find their way.



The paradigm shift that is underway is minor.



>Isn't this list one of the

>positive influences for that, in spite of the individual differences?

>

>Regards,



>Marcia Elston



I really don't think so. My major job is to tell people that they DON'T

understand Chinese healing.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 23:26:31 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Essiac, was Re: Bilberry,help for Cathy

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960907005043.00adc5a8@mail.halcyon.com>



>Hi Cathy,

>

>This post is not intended to diagnose or treat illness.  There is a

>combination of herbs, called Essiac Tea, the recipe for preparation (quite

>elaborate) was published in the Herb Companion some time back.



The efficacy of Essiac tea is mainly a myth. The concept of utilizing

anthraquinone glycoside LAXATIVES (rhubarb) willy nilly with cancer

patients is indeed horrifying. The idea that 'four perfect herbs' exist to

cure ANY such complex, multifaceted, various, and sinister illnesses is

nothing more than telling the Big Lie, to the most unfortunate. This is

what is to be DESPISED about folk remedies and their purveyors.



There are about two thousand important Chinese formulas. There are maybe a

hundred VERY DIFFERENT FORMULAS that address cancer specifically...and we

are to believe that instead these four herbs represent an entity that can

heal cancer, regardless of diagnosis, site, spread, prognosis, organ

status, health history, genesis and progression?



What a *negative* behavior, spreading such lies.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 23:29:15 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960907011104.00ad150c@mail.halcyon.com>



>. There is NO need to mention brand names.

>

>Does one little seven letter transgression here warrant being thrown off the

>list?  I'll be sure not to repeat this infraction.



Of course not. I am simply warning you that you cannot commercialize the

list without opposition.



>. As for GOD, he has enough problems on his hands.

>

>Well, we might differ again.  Don't you mean "she?"

>

>Regards,

>

>>

>Marcia Elston



As an atheist, I think the idea of a gendered supreme being is the height

of nonsense.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 23:44:08 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      The Listkeeper and I, was Re: Tabacco Alternatives

In-Reply-To:  <HERB%96090705170555@VM.EGE.EDU.TR>



>you wrote:

>>violators WILL disappear from it, without more warning than this.

>>

>>Paul

>>

>Give your threats a break Paul...if the moderator of this list paid any

>attention to the rules that are supposed to govern it (Archives 3/96), you

>would be the first to be given the royal delete.



There is no moderator. There is a list owner, and though he is absentee, he

will act when the few of us who are in occasional contact with him deem it

necessary, and he agrees. A few months back a whole slew of whiners tried

to get him to remove me, and failed. This is mainly because I serve an

educational purpose here, unlike they, who only complained, and whose few

'substantive' posts were commercial and full of propositions entirely

unborne out by science.



Be careful you don't fall under your own ax in the same way.



>Consider yourself lucky

>since this is the only list that will still accept your posts and

>behavior



Well, that is flat out nonsense. Paracelsus and I didn't see eye-to-eye,

but that is about parochialism in the New Age movement, not about me. In

that case the listowner himself told me that he thought I shouldn't be

removed, but he bowed to list pressure. The only other list I was ever

removed from was a TCM list, and on that occasion Dan Bensky, the author or

co-author of the major reference books in English in the field resigned his

membership in protest of that action.



This is the cost of being controversial, of bucking trends in thinking that

defame traditions and damage the actual progress of the acceptance of

healing alternatives in this country and elsewhere.



>...would you like a list of those you have been removed from to

>refresh you memory...enough is enough...

>

>ET



In your dreams. The listowner of this list is a very kind fellow who only

wishes I wouldn't cuss so much. He regularly takes my side when it comes to

defraying the mythology of the herbal community, since he is a

pharmacologist and unlikely to agree, for instance, that ephedra is a good

herb to use with smokers.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 7 Sep 1996 11:52:46 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Schi <rouge@EASYNET.CO.UK>

Organization: Original Synergy

Subject:      Moderated Herb List



Hi all...



If any of you are interested, there's a moderated herb list at:



Reply to:         HerbMed@zz.com    zz.com originates in   Herbal

To Join:  HerbMed-request@zz.com  Fort Lauderdale FL USA   Medicine

To Leave:    HerbMed-quit@zz.com   via midnight!east BBS      Forum

Moderator:          carey@zz.com     sysadmin: zz@zz.com    (c)1996



And no, I'm not 'associated' with it...I'm not even in the same country.



BB



Schi



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 7 Sep 1996 07:07:09 PST

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Charity L Hagen <crzy4birds@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes & Night Sweats



Please have the list "OWNERS" send out a copy of "LIST POLICY" so that

you may not be offeneded anymore by those of us that are uninformed.

                Thank You, Alan......  mineral@juno.com





On Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:04:26 +0100 Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM> writes:

>>Yes I do sell products, Paul. However,  I have never blatantly tried

>to sell

>>anything on this list; I assume if people are interested they will

>contact

>>us.

>

>Then do not overtly invite private email replies to your posts.

>

>>I have mentioned the INGREDIENTS (Essential oils) in one of our

>>products because I thought those were of help to someone.

>

>Totally appropriate if you leave out the name of your product (and the

>fact

>that you sell the herbs you are discussing).

>

>>All of these

>>ingredients are available from me and numerous other purveyors of

>>herbs-essential oils.

>

>My point exactly. There is NO need to mention brand names.

>

>>IMO essential oils are derived from plants and herbs,

>>so their discussion might occasionally be appropriate here.

>

>Agreed---that's why, for instance, I mentioned pine needle sweats. I

>simply

>want to point out that the title of the list is not an intentional

>encouragement to long posts about aromatherapy.

>

>>I think there

>>are others on the list whose tolerance counts as much as yours.  Go

>ahead

>>and ask the listkeeper to eliminate me; I think a review of my posts

>will

>>convey no reason to do such a thing.  There you go, acting like GOD

>again!

>>

>>Marcia Elston

>

>I am simply telling you that your behavior is verging on a violation

>of

>list policy. As for GOD, he has enough problems on his hands.

>

>Paul

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 7 Sep 1996 12:56:19 EST

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Regina Roberts <RROBERTS@KSGFIN.HARVARD.EDU>

Organization: Kennedy School of Government

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes



Paul wrote:>

> Same thing. There is really no reason why anyone should have hot flashes.

> But as the Uterine Essence wanes (as Kidney and Liver Essence wane), YIN

> factors, there is a real tendency for YANG factors to get out of balance.

> Heat is just that sort of thing. A properly nourished life doesn't develop

> a gross depletion of Uterine Essence, and aging is slow and gentle, without

> abnormal, uncomfortable, and unpleasant disease signs such as these.



Which is why I recomend that pre-menopausal women read "Menopausal

Years" by Susun Weed too.

-Regina



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 7 Sep 1996 13:04:21 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         John Stankiewicz <radiant@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject:      Re: Essiac, was Re: Bilberry,help for Cathy



At 11:26 PM 9/6/96 +0100, you wrote:

>>Hi Cathy,

>>

>The efficacy of Essiac tea is mainly a myth. The concept of utilizing

>anthraquinone glycoside LAXATIVES (rhubarb) willy nilly with cancer

>patients is indeed horrifying. The idea that 'four perfect herbs' exist to

>cure ANY such complex, multifaceted, various, and sinister illnesses is

>nothing more than telling the Big Lie, to the most unfortunate. This is

>what is to be DESPISED about folk remedies and their purveyors.

>

>There are about two thousand important Chinese formulas. There are maybe a

>hundred VERY DIFFERENT FORMULAS that address cancer specifically...and we

>are to believe that instead these four herbs represent an entity that can

>heal cancer, regardless of diagnosis, site, spread, prognosis, organ

>status, health history, genesis and progression?

>

>What a *negative* behavior, spreading such lies.

>

>Paul

>



Paul, what about all the thousands of cases that Rene Caisse treated in

Bracebridge, Ontario, under the watchful eyes of  countless doctors from all

over the world?  Mind you she used an intravenous version, but nevertheless

I don't recall any other treatment reported in conjucntion with her tea.  Is

there not something to that?  That doesn't mean I don't agree with your last

few lines, all factors need to be taken into account.



John.

http://www.radiant-living.com (where we try to avoid premature cognitive

commitments or old paradigms and present new ones!)

The average person has about 65,000 thoughts a day.  What is disconcerting

is that more than 95% of the thoughts are the same ones as the person had

yesterday.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 7 Sep 1996 17:55:04 GMT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Henriette Kress <HeK@HETTA.PP.FI>

Organization: ...ei meill' oo...

Subject:      ADMINISTRATIVA - periodic post - rules of the game and helpful

              hints



Time for another of these. Hints like how to unsubscribe, how to get the digest,

how to set nomail etc, are found at the bottom of this post.



Here's the rules for this list. We -should- follow these to make our stay on the

list more enjoyable:



-- ads should NOT be posted, nor followed-up to this list

-- flames should NOT be posted, nor followed-up to this list

-- off-topic posts should NOT be followed up to the list

-- anyone wishing to react to any of above can do so by PRIVATE EMAIL, and

   anyone receiving reactions is welcome to react to these in his/her turn by

   private email

   -- to facilitate this you are encouraged to add your email address in your

      .sig or at the bottom of your posts - not all email readers show the

      message headers

-- if you want something that's been offered on the list you should

   NOT follow-up to the list. Use PRIVATE EMAIL for this instead

-- attachments are something that some email programs have problems with.

   If you want to know more about it ask the sender by private email

   what to do with it. It's his/her problem to figure out how NOT to

   attach garbage to their messages

-- before sending something to the list ask yourself if your comment is

   something 600+ people would want to read - abrasive posts are NOT

   welcome, questions that have been covered three times in the past

   month are NOT welcome (how do you find out? read the list for a while,

   before posting to it), SBGA (aka spirulina aka super blue green algae) and

   kombucha are NOT welcome (these last two generate way too much noise),

   MLM:s (multi-level marketing scheme, like herbalife) are NOT welcome

-- the list is down now and then - it's part of the setup. Nothing to

   fret about, it'll be up again sooner or later

-- the limit for this list is 50 posts a day, which further adds to

   the need to think before posting.



If you're completely new to the net go read the newsgroup

   news.announce.newusers to get a feel for how things are done.



Here's some helpful hints:



-- if you wish to unsubscribe send this:

     to: LISTSERV@trearnpc.ege.edu.tr or LISTSERV@vm.ege.edu.tr

     subject: anything-you-like

     text: UNSUBSCRIBE HERB

-- if that doesn't work ask the folks at HERB-REQUEST@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

   (that's the listowners, in Turkey) politely for help

-- if you wonder where your posts went because you don't receive them back

   from the list, try this to the listserver:

   text: SET HERB REPRO

-- if you wish the digest form of the herblist send this to the listserver:

   text: SET HERB DIGEST

-- if you're going for a holiday and don't want to receive any mail for some

   time send this to the listserver:

   SET HERB NOMAIL

 - once you're back send this to the listserver:

   SET HERB MAIL

-- these commands, along with the rest of them, are also available by sending

   INFO REFCARD

   to the listserver.

-- the archives of the herblist are available in my WWW or FTP space

   (edited), or from the listserver (unedited, only about 8 months back).

   The command to use for the listserver is:

   text: GET HERB LOG9605

   ... where 96 is the year and 05 is the month. Due to the amount of off-topic

   posts lately I haven't yet gotten around to doing the logs for June, July and

   August. Post on-topic and get the edited archives faster.

-- if you wish to discuss culinary herbs, or gardening of herbs here's the

   list for that:

   to: LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

   Subject: <none>

   Text: subscribe HERBS <your full name here>

-- there is a Paul-less medicinal herblists, so instead of posting off-topic

   about him on THIS list you are formally invited to unsubscribe and to

   subscribe to one or both of these:

   -- the HerbMed list, moderated by Carey Frazier. To subscribe send email

      To: HerbMed-request@zz.com. Leave subject and text blank.

-- the Medicinal HerbFAQ lists further relevant lists you might wish to

   subscribe to, like Kombucha, Holistic, Paracelsus, Phytopharmacognosy...

-- blatant ads can be taken care of by forwarding the offending message to

   the postmaster of the offender; how-to in the Medicinal HerbFAQ.



Have fun, and enjoy the list,

Henriette



--

Henriette Kress             HeK@hetta.pp.fi            Helsinki, Finland

http://sunsite.unc.edu/herbmed FTP: sunsite.unc.edu or sunsite.sut.ac.jp

      /pub/academic/medicine/alternative-healthcare/herbal-medicine/

Medicinal and Culinary herbFAQs, plant pictures, neat stuff, archives...



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 7 Sep 1996 13:32:30 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Healing, Quantum Physics and List Violations,

              was Re: Paul's lack of credentials



For those of you who can't take it anymore, hit the trash button, NOW!



The crowd tenses in weary, uncomfortable embarrassment and heads shake with

just a hint of disgust.  Paul leans against the ropes, spittle running down

his Imperial floccule.  His Queue askew, he fumbles his crescented silk

purse looking for the next discreditting weapon in his arsenal.  No, not the

I Ching, too ethereal.  Hmmmm,  Book of Odes, nah, much too gentle.  He

hungrily ponders the leftover dim sum and chou chou, almost forgetting his

mission.  I'll get this gung ho wench to kow tow, he sneers, frantically

flinging paradoxes, oxymorons...aha, paradigms!  That ought to do it.   The

referee clears her throat....."tsk, tsk, off subject."  He bruskly slips

into a rhythmic Bugaku that mesmerizes the audience long enough for him to

hastily replace his treasures, however, his jen slips to the floor.  In

anger, he stomps it with a cruel twist of his heel.



Across the ring, Marcia rises slowly, stretches, yawns.  What's this?  She

moves smilingly towards her opponent, extends a hearty handshake and with a

quick pat to her widow's peaked chignon,  starts to step across the ropes

out of the ring.  As her foot slips into the Quantum soup, Deepak Chopra

tucked safely under her arm, she notices the discarded jen and takes it for

her own. "I can use this,"  she remarks, carefully wiping the grime away so

she can see her own face among the others in  its many faceted splendor

Leaving the slipstream of the soup, she emerges in her wonderous garden,

where she searches for Lavender, bidding time to be still again.



The end.

 .       .

Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 7 Sep 1996 17:12:31 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         John Stankiewicz <radiant@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject:      Re: Healing, Quantum Physics and List Violations,

              was Re: Paul's lack of credentials



At 01:32 PM 9/7/96 -0700, you wrote:

>For those of you who can't take it anymore, hit the trash button, NOW!

>

>The crowd tenses in weary, uncomfortable embarrassment and heads shake with

>just a hint of disgust.  Paul leans against the ropes, spittle running down

>his Imperial floccule.  His Queue askew, he fumbles his crescented silk



That was quite fun to read!  Talented!

http://www.radiant-living.com (where we try to avoid premature cognitive

commitments or old paradigms and present new ones!)

The average person has about 65,000 thoughts a day.  What is disconcerting

is that more than 95% of the thoughts are the same ones as the person had

yesterday.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 8 Sep 1996 01:35:27 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Daniel Miller <un106@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>

Subject:      Re: Paul's lack of credentials

Comments: To: Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <v0300780cae550b523f62@[206.138.118.105]>



Paul I delayed response as your word `CAUSE' of my condition left me with

much to consider. As it has over the course of two days I have entered a

down mood with alot of irritablility which is characteristic to my

experience of summer depression. Winter depressions are "blah".



 On Fri, 6 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:



> >I find value in a number of different healing arts yet in my exploration

> >of the healing arts TCM is the only one that comes across as a cohesive

> >system for health maintainance.

>

> Part of my point was that TCM is not Chinese healing per se. It is a modern

> reduction of certain aspects of Chinese healing, to the exclusion of others.

>

> >And yes I have Ted J. Kaptchuck's _The

> >Web That Has No Weaver_. I think that those on list who are befuddled by

> >terms within the TCM system would have some comprehension of them if they

> >read this book.

>

> This is what I meant by a little research. It is not that hard to get that

> book, and I will respond to questions about basic terms, but not if they

> are couched in some sort of accusation that I am being stingy (hardly...I

> spend a couple of hours a day answering e-mail), or the usual 'how can you

> expect people to listen if you are so harsh.'

>

> Listen, there is a HUGE need for harshnesss here. Disease is rampant, and

> truly harsh. In the old days, healers were fierce characters, as befits

> spirits. You think you could siddle up to a traditional Navajo healer and

(snip)

> platitudes about how WONDERFUL you are. No thanks. I would just as soon tie

> you to a stake and burn you to the ground.

>



Sounds remeniscent of my Chinese born taijquian teacher I acquired this

year. He commands discipline with a punctuation mark! Something I know I

am greatly in need to cultivate. My return to taijquian was one of first

choices in my decision to heal. It can be quite quieting for my mind.



> >Regardless there are some personal questions and concerns I have for you.

>

> Sure. "-)

>

> >I am taking Duralith (lithium) and clonazepam for bipolar affective

> >disorder. Infrequently I take low doses of neuroleptics. My former diagnosis

> >was schizophrenia. Regardless of the diagnosis my concern is the

> >suggested damage that these drugs can have over a prolonged period of use.

>

> How long have you been taking these drugs?



I took the neuroleptics (major tranquilizers) on more often extended use at

age 16 to 24. The Duralith (absorbs in the intestine) for 12 years. The

clonazepam for about 10 years.(I am aware of it's addictive component).

Dosage upped last winter and I have gradually weaned to dose I was

previously at. Tempted to take extra tonight. Declined.



> >At one time I took Chinese herbal tea preparations of sometimes 16

> >different herbs prescribed through the assessment of my pulse and patterns.

> >Concerns arose from the TCM doctor treating me of the interactiveness of

> >my psychiatric medication and the herbs.

>

> I don't think that is a significant concern. Nor do I utilize the idea of

> pulsing to determine herbal formulas. Pulsing is an acupuncturist's

> technique. Herbalists traditionally did very little of it.

>

> >And wonder one can take less

> >herbs for a specific condition such mine following TCM application. Cost

> >is one facor I have to consider.

>

> You have to address what imbalances are there, with the most

> economical/minimal approach possible in ALL cases. But the fact is that

> Chinese healing never treated mental illness very much. Such illnesses were

> sent to spirit healers for therapy (exorcists, monks, seers...that sort of

> thing).



My taijquian teacher is close to this. He maitains that he sense things

qualities in his students much like I suppose you stated that you can see

Qi acting in patients. While I am wui shi (sp) stance his adjusting of my

posture sounded something back to me as my neck is often up. The neck is

where I and physiotherapist reasoned was the prime origon of the nerve

comprehension. Thus disqualifying my MD's claim of carpal and alnar

tunnel nerve compression. (My right arm once fell asleep at from the

shoulder down in my sleep!).



> >If at all possible I would like to diminish my use of at least the

> >clonazepam or even not take these two medications at all if I knew there

> >was some alternative to them. *Note* this is not a rash thought but a

> >consideration that has occured to me for some time. Of course I know

> >such an endevour carries risks.

>

> Life carries risk.

>



Yes I attempted to go off of the lithium some years ago without concrete

alternative healing support which proved highly detrimental.



> >My question to you 1s what herbs would you identify would be helpful

> >for my mood stablization.

>

> What is the CAUSE of your mood instability? That is the approach needed.





First. My Mother has some form of senile dementia. She incurred post

pardom depressive psychosis after first my brother's birth and then mine.

She was diagnosed innitially as manic depressive and after with me

schizophrenia. My Father is alcoholic and moody. I cite of my parents as

possible genetic contributers. For the record my Mother and I have a low

threshold of tolerance for alcohol. My Father's tolerance is high.



Other `CAUSE'. I identify my nerve comprehension as interelated to my

mood instability in that they often present themselves together. And the

sense of loss of physical mobility adds to feelings of morbidity. You see I

once worked as a gardener.( I am of a small boned, quick reflexed and

anxious in nature). Now this work proves to lead to immobility. As

my wrists and hands smart after doing it as well as my sacrum which I

traumatized through improperly water diving. (Hence the whip action left

me with excruciating pain ie. walking like an old man until I first did

taijquain three month after. That liberated my back!). Anyway I am not in

a paying vocation and have been out of much mainstream activity. This

presents itself as a mood destablizer as my confidence is low as is my

self-esteem in this respect. Setting aside the stigma of my illness I

wish to be working in the right place me. Change of vocation is tantamont

as is change in my life. Personal traums of which I have yet to address

wait on my. In this I know my actions are to what healing I can have.



Behaviors and patterns. I have noted that I tend to run myself ragged.

Pacing is difficult for me. As well I recognize my need to be consistent

about eating times desist from coffee. Things you have illustrated

before. Definetly not honouring this today escalated my down swing,

irrational irritableness and energy depletion.



 > > >Apart from cyclic depression, I have experience

> >some degree of parnoia, amotivation, low sex drive, memory and

> >concentration problems (more recent) and borderline pschotic experiences

> >through the winter months.

>

> And you have tried the SAD therapy (bright lights)?



No. A friend uses it. And it interests me. Listening to a radio I heard a

clinician indicate that a certain specified amount of lux and time with

the light is required. My psychatrist doesn't recommend it for concen

that I will become manic. I don't if indeed I have had a manic episode.

But I will wager that psychiatrist are less scientifically oriented as

they claim and more like artists. Both discover through accidents despite

formal training.



 > > >The depression occurs most in the summer and

> >winter months. Currently my mood is stabler. Major psychotic episodes

> >have been a past concern (age 16-21. Current age 34).

> >

> >Other complaints are nerve comprehension at wrist, but predominantly down

> >my left side from the should and neck through the back down through the

> >hip to the foot. Sometimes the pain and immoblization corresponds to

> >emotional upsets. The nerve comprepression is as much a concern as my

> >"mental illness".

>

> If you were in L.A., I would treat that imbalance with the strong

> acupressure I do. Herbs won't touch it.



I had a brief word recently with a acupuncturist who insisted on

acupunture as I told I had been shoved against a wall in a choke hold

(very bad judgement to release anger at the time...allow to disipate as

my instructer would say). She recommended that I have an x-ray of my neck

in consideration that their could be some bone deteriation such that a

fragment could be pressing on the nerve. I am curious about how you

regard x-rays of which I am reticent of it? YES I'd prefer acupressure

over surgery. I am only wondering if an x-ray would be of value

less the radiation.



> >I do taijiquan. Am trying to diminish daily coffee use. I daily use

> >nettle and peppermint tea, goat's whey and Ginkgo biloba. My lifestyle is

> >sedindary. I am not a vegitarian. Very little fruit in my diet. Rarely drink

> >alcoholic beverages and take no other recreational drugs.

> >

> >I do recall you saying that to the effect chronic diseases such as

> >schizophrenia are not treatable or not very responsive to treatment.

> >

> >Anyway I have given you this information with the consideration that you

> >may be able to provide me with at least some guidance in respect to my

> >condition. If there is any further information you need I will provide it.

> >

> >Dan

>

> Seek out a local acupressurist, or Shiatzuist. You need bodywork.



Yes I will do that. Fortunately I know of someone who is competent in

Shiatzu and very reasonable in price with it. She as you has to deal with a

lack certification. And in a small city with many assorted other than

mainstream healers this becomes an issue to credibility. Of course there

are alot bogus and quasi-healers here.



Sorry if I have been long on word. But I hope what I have offered merits

as information you can address as remedial to me.



Dan





 > > Paul >



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 8 Sep 1996 08:53:01 PDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Wildest Dreams <wdfarms@ISRV.COM>

Subject:      Re: ADMINISTRATIVA - periodic post - rules of the game and

              helpful hints



What happened to freedom of speech on the internet? I can totally

understand setting parameters for the list, but not cutting things

out of the middle! I'm new to the list and still learning about lots

of things (green algae and kombucha tea, included)> Are you saying

that I cannot get my information here??!! Just because Paul and John

are allowed to monopolize the list (and I assume their opinions vary

on green algae and kombucha--as they do on every single thing that is

EVER brought up on this list), doesn't mean that the rest of us should

be shoved out!!!!



Glenny

Wildest Dreams                  3 adults, 7 kids and

Butler, PA                          2 grandkids

                              Setting Trends Since 1980

E-mail: wdfarms@isrv.com

                             Love Us Or Leave Us Alone

Date: 09/08/96

Time: 08:53:01

http://www.isrv.com/~wdfarms/wdfarm.html

http://www.geocities.com/heartland/4979



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 8 Sep 1996 07:57:26 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Paul's lack of credentials

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.3.89.9609072341.A16799-0100000@vifa1>



>Paul I delayed response as your word `CAUSE' of my condition left me with

>much to consider. As it has over the course of two days I have entered a

>down mood with alot of irritablility which is characteristic to my

>experience of summer depression. Winter depressions are "blah".



Well, that suggests Stagnation in both cases, so the Taijiquan will no

doubt help.



>Sounds remeniscent of my Chinese born taijquian teacher I acquired this

>year.



What is his name?



>He commands discipline with a punctuation mark! Something I know I

>am greatly in need to cultivate. My return to taijquian was one of first

>choices in my decision to heal. It can be quite quieting for my mind.



>My taijquian teacher is close to this. He maitains that he sense things

>qualities in his students much like I suppose you stated that you can see

>Qi acting in patients. While I am wui shi (sp) stance



Wuji shi. Literally, 'unpolarized position.' The posture mimics the

condition of the universe before yinyang has appeared.



>his adjusting of my

>posture sounded something back to me as my neck is often up. The neck is

>where I and physiotherapist reasoned was the prime origon of the nerve

>comprehension. Thus disqualifying my MD's claim of carpal and alnar

>tunnel nerve compression. (My right arm once fell asleep at from the

>shoulder down in my sleep!).



This is well-known in bodyworker circles. Thoracic outlet syndrome, NOT

carpal tunnel syndrome.



>> >My question to you 1s what herbs would you identify would be helpful

>> >for my mood stablization.

>>

>> What is the CAUSE of your mood instability? That is the approach needed.

>

>

>First. My Mother has some form of senile dementia. She incurred post

>partum depressive psychosis after first my brother's birth and then mine.

>She was diagnosed innitially as manic depressive and after with me

>schizophrenia. My Father is alcoholic and moody. I cite of my parents as

>possible genetic contributers. For the record my Mother and I have a low

>threshold of tolerance for alcohol. My Father's tolerance is high.



Well, yes, this sort of mental/emotional derangement is inherited

'energetically.' Traditional homeopathy, over the period of a few decades,

is the best solution to such inheritances...but it requires youth,

continued particularity of the illness (strength of the vital force=unique

symtomology), and a *traditional* single dose/no other therapy homeopathic

doctor willing to take on such a difficult case.



>Other `CAUSE'. I identify my nerve comprehension as interelated to my

>mood instability in that they often present themselves together.



The Qi Stagnation affects both your TO and your emotions. The compression

itself is an aftereffect.



>And the

>sense of loss of physical mobility adds to feelings of morbidity. You see I

>once worked as a gardener.( I am of a small boned, quick reflexed and

>anxious in nature). Now this work proves to lead to immobility. As

>my wrists and hands smart after doing it as well as my sacrum which I

>traumatized through improperly water diving. (Hence the whip action left

>me with excruciating pain ie. walking like an old man until I first did

>taijquain three month after. That liberated my back!). Anyway I am not in

>a paying vocation and have been out of much mainstream activity. This

>presents itself as a mood destablizer as my confidence is low as is my

>self-esteem in this respect. Setting aside the stigma of my illness I

>wish to be working in the right place me. Change of vocation is tantamont

>as is change in my life. Personal traums of which I have yet to address

>wait on my. In this I know my actions are to what healing I can have.



Well, many Taijiquan masters were seriously ill when they began their

practice. If you have no fixed vocation, perhaps you have more time to do

Taijiquan. Those masters often did it for six to eight hours a day...get to

work!



>Behaviors and patterns. I have noted that I tend to run myself ragged.

>Pacing is difficult for me. As well I recognize my need to be consistent

>about eating times desist from coffee. Things you have illustrated

>before. Definetly not honouring this today escalated my down swing,

>irrational irritableness and energy depletion.



Lifestyle in such cases is quite treacherous. Yes, you need to walk a

narrow path, but so do we all, really. You would benefit from Hsiao Yao

San, for instance, a prepared remedy available in Chinatown. It helps the

Liver Qi to move. Peppermint tea is also very important.



> > > >Apart from cyclic depression, I have experience

>> >some degree of parnoia, amotivation, low sex drive, memory and

>> >concentration problems (more recent) and borderline pschotic experiences

>> >through the winter months.

>>

>> And you have tried the SAD therapy (bright lights)?

>

>No. A friend uses it. And it interests me. Listening to a radio I heard a

>clinician indicate that a certain specified amount of lux and time with

>the light is required. My psychatrist doesn't recommend it for concen

>that I will become manic. I don't if indeed I have had a manic episode.

>But I will wager that psychiatrist are less scientifically oriented as

>they claim and more like artists. Both discover through accidents despite

>formal training.



I recommend you try it. This is the sort of simple therapy that the Chinese

have always embraced, and indeed, Yang-depleted patients have done sun

therapy for millenia.



>> If you were in L.A., I would treat that imbalance with the strong

>> acupressure I do. Herbs won't touch it.

>

>I had a brief word recently with a acupuncturist who insisted on

>acupunture as I told I had been shoved against a wall in a choke hold

>(very bad judgement to release anger at the time...allow to disipate as

>my instructer would say). She recommended that I have an x-ray of my neck

>in consideration that their could be some bone deteriation such that a

>fragment could be pressing on the nerve. I am curious about how you

>regard x-rays of which I am reticent of it? YES I'd prefer acupressure

>over surgery. I am only wondering if an x-ray would be of value

>less the radiation.



Well, an x-ray isn't the end of the world, but this sort of local injury

pattern isn't what I was referring to as far as acupressure goes. I believe

that acupressure is FAR more effective, properly done, for problems like

yours, than acupuncture. The reason is quite simple...the stronger

stimulation and greater number of points made possible by acupressure, the

value of touch, and the reduced cost of a procedure that is not as invasive.



>> Seek out a local acupressurist, or Shiatzuist. You need bodywork.

>

>Yes I will do that. Fortunately I know of someone who is competent in

>Shiatzu and very reasonable in price with it. She as you has to deal with a

>lack certification. And in a small city with many assorted other than

>mainstream healers this becomes an issue to credibility. Of course there

>are alot bogus and quasi-healers here.



As everywhere. Shiatsu can be very impressive. But you need to get

treatment at least weekly...hope that is possible for you.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 8 Sep 1996 08:03:10 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: ADMINISTRATIVA - periodic post - rules of the game and

              helpful hints

In-Reply-To:  <Chameleon.960908090008.wdfarms@wdfarms>



>What happened to freedom of speech on the internet? I can totally

>understand setting parameters for the list, but not cutting things

>out of the middle! I'm new to the list and still learning about lots

>of things (green algae and kombucha tea, included)> Are you saying

>that I cannot get my information here??!!



Yes, we are. You can't talk about Chevrolet starter motors either. This has

to do with focus, not with freedom.



>Just because Paul and John

>are allowed to monopolize the list (and I assume their opinions vary

>on green algae and kombucha--as they do on every single thing that is

>EVER brought up on this list), doesn't mean that the rest of us should

>be shoved out!!!!

>

>Glenny



This is longstanding policy, supported by ALL the longterm posters to this

list, which group does not include John, a newcomer like yourself. As for

'monopolizing the list,' well, John doesn't monopolize mine since I filter

his posts and never see them any more. If mine offend you, I recommend you

do the same.



There are plenty of places in cyberspace to talk about BGA and Kombucha.

The list FAQ provides several addresses where the hysteria associated with

these two questionable supplements can be a warm Sitzbath for your sore

rump over these restrictions, I'm sure.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 8 Sep 1996 13:30:46 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Doug Grinder <dgrin@AGT.NET>

Subject:      Ginkgo and drug interactions



Does anyone know of any adverse drug interactions to Ginkgo?

 I am considering recommending it to my Grandmother who is on

 Prozac, is diabetic and has high blood pressure.



                   Christine



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 8 Sep 1996 20:52:35 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Jack van Luik <jackv@PACIFIER.COM>

Subject:      blue algea???? (fwd)



The first copy of this came back ??????



Jack van Luik, MBA   DATA CONCEPTS   Ridgefield WA

Developing Heavy Duty Accounting Systems, using dBase/Clipper/Foxpro/Access.











---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 13:12:09 -0700 (PDT)

From: Jack van Luik <jackv@pacifier.com>

To: Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Subject: blue algea????



Heard a radio report that the stuff being harvested in Klamath Lake is

contaminated, but the company making pills/etc is still doing so, claiming

they have the technology to separate the bad stuff out.



Anyone have insight on this?  Are they just in a financial bind  and can't

afford to stop production, or is there actually a way to detect and

eliminate the poisonous strands?



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 8 Sep 1996 20:55:07 PDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Wildest Dreams <wdfarms@ISRV.COM>

Subject:      Re: ADMINISTRATIVA - periodic post - rules of the game and

              helpful hints



Yes, but to my knowledge a Chevrolet is not an herb and I believe that is

what this list is about.  Do you belong to an arrogant pompuos male

mailing list?





Wildest Dreams                  3 adults, 7 kids and

Butler, PA                          2 grandkids

                              Setting Trends Since 1980

E-mail: wdfarms@isrv.com

                             Love Us Or Leave Us Alone

Date: 09/08/96

Time: 20:55:07

http://www.isrv.com/~wdfarms/wdfarm.html

http://www.geocities.com/heartland/4979



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 8 Sep 1996 20:18:40 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Daniel Miller <un106@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>

Subject:      test



just a test



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 09:15:59 +0200

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ed Taylor <etaylor@RIPPERS.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Listkeeper and I, was Re: Tabacco Alternatives



Paul you wrote:

>There is no moderator. There is a list owner, and though he is absentee, he

>will act when the few of us who are in occasional contact with him deem it

>necessary, and he agrees. A few months back a whole slew of whiners tried

>to get him to remove me, and failed.



>Be careful you don't fall under your own ax in the same way.



Paul:



The above statement I presume is meant to say you control this list and are

one of the "few" who are able to communicate with the list owner. Actually,

I thought Henriette was the list moderator. I recieved the following

statement from her in your defense...



>"Paul will NOT be removed from this list. His posts are funny, he knows a

LOT..." Henriette



I am fascinated how many people enjoy watching others being attacked.

Personally, though I can acknowledge you function on a high cognitive level,

I can also see you use it as an  excuse to abuse others emotionally. Your

justification for this is that they are stupid or selling something. The

last line of your post to me is a threat I presume....threats and

abuse...tools of the healer?



Actually, when I signed back on this list a week or so ago, I knew something

was wrong. No one from before was here anymore. There used to be many

voices, now only yours. Now I know why.



Yes, I have been baiting you and Henriette to say what is really going on

here. Point now clearly made...you control this list, by abuse or

intimidation, and run off anyone who might confront you, or challenge your

dominance. Point also clearly made...Henriette thinks your behavior is

"funny," and with the listowner gives you free reign. It felt like you were

out of control and now I know why.



I saw the abuse taking place here under the excuse of "knowledge." I

attempted to intervene. I then find out the moderator finds your abuse of

others funny, and the listowner doesn't care.



I therefore leave the list to you Paul...and to those who like to be

abused...and to those who like to watch...sadly there is little else that

happens here anymore...



ET





From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 8 Sep 1996 13:12:09 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Jack van Luik <jackv@PACIFIER.COM>

Subject:      blue algea????

In-Reply-To:  <v03007801ae588b6ba44c@[206.138.118.115]>



Heard a radio report that the stuff being harvested in Klamath Lake is

contaminated, but the company making pills/etc is still doing so, claiming

they have the technology to separate the bad stuff out.



Anyone have insight on this?  Are they just in a financial bind  and can't

afford to stop production, or is there actually a way to detect and

eliminate the poisonous strands?



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 8 Sep 1996 23:59:50 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: ADMINISTRATIVA - periodic post - rules of the game and

              helpful hints

In-Reply-To:  <Chameleon.960908205644.wdfarms@wdfarms>



>Yes, but to my knowledge a Chevrolet is not an herb and I believe that is

>what this list is about.  Do you belong to an arrogant pompuos male

>mailing list?



Well, if you want to be nasty, Kombucha isn't an herb and neither is BGA.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 00:05:27 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: blue algea????

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.BSI.3.93.960908130953.9084C-100000@pacifier.com>



>Heard a radio report that the stuff being harvested in Klamath Lake is

>contaminated, but the company making pills/etc is still doing so, claiming

>they have the technology to separate the bad stuff out.

>

>Anyone have insight on this?  Are they just in a financial bind  and can't

>afford to stop production, or is there actually a way to detect and

>eliminate the poisonous strands?



BGA is off-topic to the list. There are sites that discuss BGA **forever**,

like Misc.health.alternative and alt.folklore.herbs.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 00:01:57 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Listkeeper and I, was Re: Tabacco Alternatives

In-Reply-To:  <HERB%96090909160188@VM.EGE.EDU.TR>



>I therefore leave the list to you Paul...and to those who like to be

>abused...and to those who like to watch...sadly there is little else that

>happens here anymore...

>

>ET



More good riddance, and the beat goes on.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 8 Sep 1996 15:17:52 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Daniel Miller <un106@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>

Subject:      Re: Qi Stagnation was Paul's..etc.

Comments: To: Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <v03007801ae588b6ba44c@[206.138.118.115]>



On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:



> >Paul I delayed response as your word `CAUSE' of my condition left me with

> >much to consider. As it has over the course of two days I have entered a

> >down mood with alot of irritablility which is characteristic to my

> >experience of summer depression. Winter depressions are "blah".

>

> Well, that suggests Stagnation in both cases, so the Taijiquan will no

> doubt help.

>

> >Sounds remeniscent of my Chinese born taijquian teacher I acquired this

> >year.

>

> What is his name?



Tek Siaw. I recall saying he had been in California. His teacher's teacher

was noted for doing his taijquian form under a tables because he had great

leg mobility and extension and maybe was happily experimentative. I don't

recall names to denote his place among the lineage of teachers. Just a

curious note.



> >He commands discipline with a punctuation mark! Something I know I

> >am greatly in need to cultivate. My return to taijquian was one of first

> >choices in my decision to heal. It can be quite quieting for my mind.

>

> >My taijquian teacher is close to this. He maitains that he sense things

> >qualities in his students much like I suppose you stated that you can see

> >Qi acting in patients. While I am wui shi (sp) stance

>

> Wuji shi. Literally, 'unpolarized position.' The posture mimics the

> condition of the universe before yinyang has appeared.



Yes, today Tek alluded the same to we his students.



> >his adjusting of my

> >posture sounded something back to me as my neck is often up. The neck is

> >where I and physiotherapist reasoned was the prime origon of the nerve

> >comprehension. Thus disqualifying my MD's claim of carpal and alnar

> >tunnel nerve compression. (My right arm once fell asleep at from the

> >shoulder down in my sleep!).

>

> This is well-known in bodyworker circles. Thoracic outlet syndrome, NOT

> carpal tunnel syndrome.

>

This something to notate as I know of a number of persons who are

similary diagnosed. Each one has questions.



> >> >My question to you 1s what herbs would you identify would be helpful

> >> >for my mood stablization.

> >>

> >> What is the CAUSE of your mood instability? That is the approach needed.

> >

> >

> >First. My Mother has some form of senile dementia. She incurred post

> >partum depressive psychosis after first my brother's birth and then mine.

> >She was diagnosed innitially as manic depressive and after with me

> >schizophrenia. My Father is alcoholic and moody. I cite of my parents as

> >possible genetic contributers. For the record my Mother and I have a low

> >threshold of tolerance for alcohol. My Father's tolerance is high.

>

> Well, yes, this sort of mental/emotional derangement is inherited

> 'energetically.' Traditional homeopathy, over the period of a few decades,

> is the best solution to such inheritances...but it requires youth,

> continued particularity of the illness (strength of the vital force=unique

> symtomology), and a *traditional* single dose/no other therapy homeopathic

> doctor willing to take on such a difficult case.

>

Check! We have some homeopathic practitioners in this area. And `youth'

this tells me that time is of the essence.



> >Other `CAUSE'. I identify my nerve comprehension as interelated to my

> >mood instability in that they often present themselves together.

>

> The Qi Stagnation affects both your TO and your emotions. The compression

> itself is an aftereffect.

>



Yes the compression has been gradual in development.



(snip)

>

> Well, many Taijiquan masters were seriously ill when they began their

> practice. If you have no fixed vocation, perhaps you have more time to do

> Taijiquan. Those masters often did it for six to eight hours a day...get to

> work!



Yes I can more into it. I am doing a Eight Brocades Qi-Gong workshop next

weekend. My innitial exposure to this was a deeper internal response.

>

> >Behaviors and patterns. I have noted that I tend to run myself ragged.

> >Pacing is difficult for me. As well I recognize my need to be consistent

> >about eating times desist from coffee. Things you have illustrated

> >before. Definetly not honouring this today escalated my down swing,

> >irrational irritableness and energy depletion.

>

> Lifestyle in such cases is quite treacherous. Yes, you need to walk a

> narrow path, but so do we all, really. You would benefit from Hsiao Yao

> San, for instance, a prepared remedy available in Chinatown. It helps the

> Liver Qi to move. Peppermint tea is also very important.



There is a dispencer I can obtain this from. Peppermint I continue to do

with stinging nettles which I was advised would be a helpful cleanser.

>

> > > > >Apart from cyclic depression, I have experience

> >> >some degree of parnoia, amotivation, low sex drive, memory and

> >> >concentration problems (more recent) and borderline pschotic experiences

> >> >through the winter months.

> >>

> >> And you have tried the SAD therapy (bright lights)?

> >

>

> I recommend you try it. This is the sort of simple therapy that the Chinese

> have always embraced, and indeed, Yang-depleted patients have done sun

> therapy for millenia.



Okay this easy enough.

>

> >> If you were in L.A., I would treat that imbalance with the strong

> >> acupressure I do. Herbs won't touch it.

> >

> >I had a brief word recently with a acupuncturist who insisted on

> >acupunture as I told I had been shoved against a wall in a choke hold

> >(very bad judgement to release anger at the time...allow to disipate as

> >my instructer would say). She recommended that I have an x-ray of my neck

> >in consideration that their could be some bone deteriation such that a

> >fragment could be pressing on the nerve. I am curious about how you

> >regard x-rays of which I am reticent of it? YES I'd prefer acupressure

> >over surgery. I am only wondering if an x-ray would be of value

> >less the radiation.

>

> Well, an x-ray isn't the end of the world, but this sort of local injury

> pattern isn't what I was referring to as far as acupressure goes. I believe

> that acupressure is FAR more effective, properly done, for problems like

> yours, than acupuncture. The reason is quite simple...the stronger

> stimulation and greater number of points made possible by acupressure, the

> value of touch, and the reduced cost of a procedure that is not as invasive.

>



The invasive nature of acupuncture is one reason I stopped. The hands on

approach of both acupressure and shiatzu are more appealing. As for an

x-ray I think I'll can it.



> >> Seek out a local acupressurist, or Shiatzuist. You need bodywork.

> >

> >Yes I will do that. Fortunately I know of someone who is competent in

> >Shiatzu and very reasonable in price with it. She as you has to deal with a

> >lack certification. And in a small city with many assorted other than

> >mainstream healers this becomes an issue to credibility. Of course there

> >are alot bogus and quasi-healers here.

>

> As everywhere. Shiatsu can be very impressive. But you need to get

> treatment at least weekly...hope that is possible for you.

>

Yes I understood this. A suitable volunteer incentive program would help

the financial end of things and of course urge me to do what I will

eventually have to do; get a vocation.



Thank you Paul. Your information helped clarify many questions and now I

feel I have a solider healing foundation on which to work with.



Dan



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:53:58 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Joco Cardoso <rodas@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Listen to the tune...



Soooo right you are!



On Fri, 6 Sep 1996 03:23:41 +0200 Ed Taylor <etaylor@RIPPERS.COM> writes:

>Paul the Piper is playing....

>

>You'll know he's playing when you see the ebb and flow of comments

>about

>him. He controls the list with stinging attacks. He controls it when

>you

>respond. He controls it when you defend yourself and controls it when

>you don't.

>

>When you tire of it and call him on his behavior, he plays a tune of

>melodious sounds you chase about. At the moment the lyrics of that

>song are

>about "credentials" and such.

>

>And then there is always the final refrain of his defenders coming to

>his

>defense with..."Poor misunderstood Paul, Poor Paul...Poor Paul..."

>

>For months I have watched him play this list like a fine instrument. I

>would

>applaud this performance, but it has been replayed so many times it is

>beginning to grate on my nerves. Whoops...I think you just caught me

>humming

>the melody....

>

>ET

>

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 09:59:57 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Schi <rouge@EASYNET.CO.UK>

Organization: Original Synergy

Subject:      Re: The Listkeeper and I, was Re: Tabacco Alternatives

Comments: To: etaylor@RIPPERS.COM



> >"Paul will NOT be removed from this list. His posts are funny, he

> >knows a LOT..." Henriette

>

Hi Ed...



I just wanted to say thanks for the clarity you've shown during this

latest abuse session, and for the information re: Henriette...I'm

appalled that anyone can find this sort of behaviour funny. Personally,

I hope everyone leaves the list in protest, but it probably won't

happen, and the new ones will get blasted by Paul's incredible 'wit'

(sic) as soon as they post...God forbid they should actually disagree

with him, or offer some information that doesn't coincide with what he

knows.



Sadly, you've just taken away my hope that the moderator of this list

was someone who actually cared about it.



Henriette...I'm sure some people thought that Hitler was funny too. And

having knowledge doesn't give anyone the right to abuse others, no

matter how great it is. And Ed is dead right when he says that abuse and

threats are not the tools of healers...they're the tools of people who

are afraid and have to beat others down in order to prove their own

worth.



Bye all...best wishes to most of you!



Schi



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 06:58:21 -0600

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "P.L.D." <puanani@MICF.NIST.GOV>

Subject:      Guarana (Paullinia Cupana)



Hello everyone,

Could someone(s) please tell me about Guarana (Paullinia Cupana)?

I have a friend who is taking it in a pill form.

Thank You in advance,

Puanani



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Puanani L. Delara

ext. 5284

email  delara@boulder.nist.gov



"Nature gave man two ends - one to sit on and one to think with. Ever since

then man's success or failure has been dependent on the one he used

most."--George R. Kirkpatrick



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 09:44:28 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ellen Gary <bludevil@CRIS.COM>

Subject:      Re: ADMINISTRATIVA - periodic post - rules of the game and

              helpful hints



>>Yes, but to my knowledge a Chevrolet is not an herb and I believe that is

>>what this list is about.  Do you belong to an arrogant pompuos male

>>mailing list?

>

>Well, if you want to be nasty, Kombucha isn't an herb and neither is BGA.

>

>Paul





I find it interesting that you think he is being nasty, but don't realize

or consider that you usually are, Paul.  Unfortunately.



Ellen



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:16:12 -0600

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Birthe Getzlaf <GETZLAF@SIAST.SK.CA>

Subject:      Signoff



I have subscribed to this list a couple of month now and was just going to

unsubscribe again, without letting anybody know.  I have got very little out of

this list, but I sure have learned how to bicker.

Birthe



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 11:13:57 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         John Stankiewicz <radiant@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject:      Re: blue algea????



At 01:12 PM 9/8/96 -0700, you wrote:

>Heard a radio report that the stuff being harvested in Klamath Lake is

>contaminated, but the company making pills/etc is still doing so, claiming

>they have the technology to separate the bad stuff out.

>

>Anyone have insight on this?  Are they just in a financial bind  and can't

>afford to stop production, or is there actually a way to detect and

>eliminate the poisonous strands?

>



Very doubtful, and if true, it would not only drive the cost of their

product way up but would have a negative impact on the efficacy.



http://www.radiant-living.com (where we try to avoid premature cognitive

commitments or old paradigms and present new ones!)

The average person has about 65,000 thoughts a day.  What is disconcerting

is that more than 95% of the thoughts are the same ones as the person had

yesterday.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 13:10:08 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Verna Nesom <nesom@AIRMAIL.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Listkeeper and I, was Re: Tabacco Alternatives



Ed wrote:



>I thought Henriette was the list moderator. I recieved the following

>statement from her in your defense...

>

>"Paul will NOT be removed from this list. His posts are funny, he knows a

>LOT..." Henriette



>I can also see you use it as an  excuse to abuse others emotionally. Your

>justification for this is that they are stupid or selling something. The

>last line of your post to me is a threat I presume....threats and

>abuse...tools of the healer?

>

>Point also clearly made...Henriette thinks your behavior is

>"funny," and with the listowner gives you free reign. It felt like you were

>out of control and now I know why.

>

Schi wrote:



>And having knowledge doesn't give anyone the right to abuse others, no

>matter how great it is. And Ed is dead right when he says that abuse and

>threats are not the tools of healers...they're the tools of people who

>are afraid and have to beat others down in order to prove their own worth.>



Thank you to you both for stating the "situation" on this list so clearly.

I too had stayed on the list however I can no longer stand by and watch the

abuse that takes place here.  What truly makes this list repugnant is

Henriette thinking Paul is funny. Abuse on any level is not funny and if you

think it's so funny wait until it happens to you (and I not talking about

Paul - yours will be much worse - you won't think it's funny then).



It truly saddens me that you (Henriette)  and the list owner are enabling

one person (Paul) with an obvious problem (probably personality disorder)

and allowing him to ruin the list and the subject for countless others.  I

believe you each need to take a good look at  yourselves (on the other hand

you probably couldn't stand it).



In addition I am saddened that other people are going to be subjected to

this also.  Paul just waits around for another group of unsuspecting

subscribers and goes for fresh meat. I wish there were some way to warn new

subscribers of the real purpose of this list.



Paul you give TCM, herbs, etc. a bad name.   I am sure you have scared away

more from something that could truly help them and that is unforgiveable.



Verna



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 14:23:20 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Wilson <MWilson780@AOL.COM>

Subject:      I'm gone as well!



To all the NICE people on this list I wish you luck but I cannot waste my

time reading the war of Paul!  If I wanted that kind of amusement I'd watch

soap opera's.  I'm off to the Herb-Med list. It is proving to be quite nice.



Marcia



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 11:05:27 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Guarana (Paullinia Cupana)



At 06:58 AM 9/9/96 -0600, you wrote:

>Hello everyone,

>Could someone(s) please tell me about Guarana (Paullinia Cupana)?

>I have a friend who is taking it in a pill form.

>Thank You in advance,

>Puanani

>

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>

Hi Puanani,



I have a little information about Guarana.  It is Paullinia cupana, commonly

called Guarana or Brazilian cocoa or zoom.  Native to rainforest in Brazil,

Uruguay and Venezuela; commercial plantations were established in the

1970's.  Now a major cash crop.  It is an astringent herb with a strong

stimulant effect.  Taken internally to relive fatigue, aid concentration and

left the spirits.  May cause sleeplessness, although reputedly less so than

caffeine-based products.  Not recommended for those with cardiovascular

disease or hypertension.  Used commercially in diet foods, supplements for

atheletes and chewing gum.  Seeds are also fermented locally to make an

alcholic drink.  Used as a source of caffeine and flavoring for soft drinks,

liquers and candy.  Sweetened paste is known as "Brazilian chocolate."

Seeds contain up to seven percent of a caffeinelike compound known as

"guaranine."  Unlike caffeine, it is not addictive and takes longer to be

metabolized, giving it a gentler more sustained stimulant effect.  It has

recently been promoted as a safe, natural stimulant by the health-food

industry in the form of capsules and candy.  Stems of the closely related P.

yoco are used by native people in Columbia, Ecuador, and northern Peru to

make a similar drink.



Regards,

Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 11:57:04 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Sam Brooks <sbrooks@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Listkeeper and I, was Re: Tabacco Alternatives



At 09:15 AM 9/9/96 +0200, you wrote:

****Prior Text Deleted*******************

>

>I saw the abuse taking place here under the excuse of "knowledge." I

>attempted to intervene. I then find out the moderator finds your abuse of

>others funny, and the listowner doesn't care.

>

>I therefore leave the list to you Paul...and to those who like to be

>abused...and to those who like to watch...sadly there is little else that

>happens here anymore...

>

>ET



Well Said, ET.



This is the second time, I've signed off this list.  I'm on a number of

other lists and this one tops it all for flames, baiting, vitriol, et al.



It's a shame that a quest for knowledge gets derailed in such a manner.



Methinks it best to allow Paul to preach to the choir.



nuff said



Sam Brooks



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:44:24 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Guarana (Paullinia Cupana)

In-Reply-To:  <199609091303.HAA17845@central.bldrdoc.gov>



>Hello everyone,

>Could someone(s) please tell me about Guarana (Paullinia Cupana)?

>I have a friend who is taking it in a pill form.

>Thank You in advance,

>Puanani



I bid three spades. No, just kidding.



Guarana contains caffeine in considerable quantity. It is a STIMULANT.

Therefore, it falls in that category of plants that aren't particularly

healthful.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:46:51 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: ADMINISTRATIVA - periodic post - rules of the game and

              helpful hints

In-Reply-To:  <v01540b03ae59dcd6ff6f@[206.173.76.37]>



>>>Yes, but to my knowledge a Chevrolet is not an herb and I believe that is

>>>what this list is about.  Do you belong to an arrogant pompuos male

>>>mailing list?

>>

>>Well, if you want to be nasty, Kombucha isn't an herb and neither is BGA.

>>

>>Paul

>

>

>I find it interesting that you think he is being nasty, but don't realize

>or consider that you usually are, Paul.  Unfortunately.

>

>Ellen



Well, the stuff people find interesting. Of course **I**, the bearer of all

negativity, in this land of sacred New Age opium poppies, am nasty...I was

simply commenting on this person's desire to join in.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:57:37 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Signoff

In-Reply-To:  <8712160809091996/A45615/MAX/11A94A0C3800*@MHS>



>I have subscribed to this list a couple of month now and was just going to

>unsubscribe again, without letting anybody know.  I have got very little

>out of

>this list, but I sure have learned how to bicker.

>Birthe



I've been reading Internet herb lists for three years. The overwhelming

majority of the posts are worthless rumors, rose petal cream recipes,

endless entrepreneurialism, endless apparently-illiterate questions, and

the occasional book quote from a marginally reliable source. Then there is

the very occasional Michael or Howie post, but they are fairly few and far

between.



Meanwhile, in the trenches, those of us actually fighting in the field (and

not yet elevated to the plane of the aforementioned immortals) post as much

as we can, trying to earn a place in the holy pantheon of plant

perspicuity. And these immortals look down from woven bowers, wearing

kindly, bemused expressions at the strife of human existence, for such has

it ALWAYS been.



The one hope we poor miscreant mortals can find to hold, is that these

archangels of alchemical insight never post chest-thumping 'signoffs'

through sheer boredom, but rather appear in fact to be entranced by the

hubbub and theater of a green, green world. Someone must be doing something

right, even if the rest is error.



Paul



Btw, anyone got a good rose petal cream recipe???



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 13:13:17 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Listkeeper and I, was Re: Tabacco Alternatives

In-Reply-To:  <m0v0Amc-000DvhC@mail.airmail.net>



>>And having knowledge doesn't give anyone the right to abuse others, no

>>matter how great it is. And Ed is dead right when he says that abuse and

>>threats are not the tools of healers...they're the tools of people who

>>are afraid and have to beat others down in order to prove their own worth.>



Well, much preferable in your book, it seems, is false information and

unreal claims, a vague, meandering approach to healing, and dangerous

tinkering.



>Thank you to you both for stating the "situation" on this list so clearly.

>I too had stayed on the list however I can no longer stand by and watch the

>abuse that takes place here.  What truly makes this list repugnant is

>Henriette thinking Paul is funny.



What is repugnant is that Ed posts private email.



>Abuse on any level is not funny and if you

>think it's so funny wait until it happens to you (and I not talking about

>Paul - yours will be much worse - you won't think it's funny then).



A quaint, pseudo-Christian view, I'm sure. The Boogie Man vs. the Man

Above. Sounds like Mexican tag team wrestling.



>It truly saddens me that you (Henriette)  and the list owner are enabling

>one person (Paul) with an obvious problem (probably personality disorder)



Internet participant, actually. But *close*!



>and allowing him to ruin the list and the subject for countless others.  I

>believe you each need to take a good look at  yourselves (on the other hand

>you probably couldn't stand it).



Maybe someone can invent a utility that makes a computer monitor into a

mirror? I do understand, however, that computers *are* already a "minor"

chakra.



>In addition I am saddened that other people are going to be subjected to

>this also.  Paul just waits around for another group of unsuspecting

>subscribers and goes for fresh meat. I wish there were some way to warn new

>subscribers of the real purpose of this list.



Well, Henriette, Michael, Howie, and I all join you in this desire, I'm sure!



>Paul you give TCM, herbs, etc. a bad name.   I am sure you have scared away

>more from something that could truly help them and that is unforgiveable.

>

>Verna



If I was seeking forgiveness for my sins, I would be worthy of your

disdain. As it is, you seem to have no approbation for the false

information which appears on all sides. Nor do you have a substantive

argument of any sort with any of the actual data I post. So you're just a

whiner, and those are a dime a dozen in cyberspace.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 13:17:37 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Guarana (Paullinia Cupana)

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960909180527.00ada2dc@mail.halcyon.com>



>At 06:58 AM 9/9/96 -0600, you wrote:

>>Hello everyone,

>>Could someone(s) please tell me about Guarana (Paullinia Cupana)?

>>I have a friend who is taking it in a pill form.

>>Thank You in advance,

>>Puanani

>>

>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>>

>Hi Puanani,

>

>I have a little information about Guarana.  It is Paullinia cupana, commonly

>called Guarana or Brazilian cocoa or zoom.  Native to rainforest in Brazil,

>Uruguay and Venezuela; commercial plantations were established in the

>1970's.  Now a major cash crop.  It is an astringent herb with a strong

>stimulant effect.  Taken internally to relive fatigue, aid concentration and

>left the spirits.  May cause sleeplessness, although reputedly less so than

>caffeine-based products.



Guaranine IS caffeine. The claim that it isn't is only made by

entrepreneurs, chemists working for S. American countries, and export

companies.



>Not recommended for those with cardiovascular

>disease or hypertension.  Used commercially in diet foods, supplements for

>atheletes and chewing gum.  Seeds are also fermented locally to make an

>alcholic drink.  Used as a source of caffeine



Hello.



>and flavoring for soft drinks,

>liquers and candy.  Sweetened paste is known as "Brazilian chocolate."

>Seeds contain up to seven percent of a caffeinelike compound known as

>"guaranine."  Unlike caffeine, it is not addictive and takes longer to be

>metabolized, giving it a gentler more sustained stimulant effect.



Nonsense. A sales pitch by any other name.



>It has

>recently been promoted as a safe, natural stimulant by the health-food

>industry in the form of capsules and candy.  Stems of the closely related P.

>yoco are used by native people in Columbia, Ecuador, and northern Peru to

>make a similar drink.

>

>Regards,

>Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

>Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

>                                  Herbal Indulgence

>                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 13:18:37 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: I'm gone as well!

In-Reply-To:  <960909142319_519007952@emout09.mail.aol.com>



>To all the NICE people on this list I wish you luck but I cannot waste my

>time reading the war of Paul!  If I wanted that kind of amusement I'd watch

>soap opera's.  I'm off to the Herb-Med list. It is proving to be quite nice.

>

>Marcia



Having utterly failed to sell your products and having your false ideas of

Chinese healing rebuffed, you are off to greener pastures. What is the

surprise?



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 13:58:46 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ed Kochanowski <egk@EGK.COM>

Subject:      Thin Skinned Net Newbies would rather bitch than switch

Comments: To: Sam Brooks <sbrooks@EARTHLINK.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <199609091857.LAA00906@germany.it.earthlink.net>



Come on people, if you don't like the list, just leave, no need to bitch,

just go!



You people complain constantly yet fail to realize that your complaints

are much worse than anything paul has ever written.



If you hate the way this list is run so much why do you force yourself to

stay subscribed?   Is this a mental condition?  Is there a herbal

treatment for it?



--Ed



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:06:15 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Gabriel Greene, Certified Nutritionist" <gabriel@A.CRL.COM>

Organization: Gabriel's Island

Subject:      Re: System cleansing/Paul purging



Paul Iannone wrote:



> No, it is a part of the plant chemistry, and ALL the cabbage plants  > can have this problem (broccoli, cauliflower, kale...).



** Paul, you are full of cabbage. I left this list due to cyanide-lipped

   people like you. Don't you have a life? You're an embarrassment.

   Poor Gabe's mailbox is full of your posts. Why don't you take up

   knitting? It keeps your hands busy and while we hope your mind as

   well will be occupied, I fear nothing will extract you from deluging

   the list with your Papal pap and self-righteous excresence.



   Love,     (don't respond to Gabe he's on vacation)



   Rob -   <RB233>      robbee@herb.com      robbee@metro.net

   - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 14:40:28 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: I'm gone as well!



At 01:18 PM 9/9/96 -0700, you wrote:

>>To all the NICE people on this list I wish you luck but I cannot waste my

>>time reading the war of Paul!  If I wanted that kind of amusement I'd watch

>>soap opera's.  I'm off to the Herb-Med list. It is proving to be quite nice.

>>

>>Marcia

>

>Having utterly failed to sell your products and having your false ideas of

>Chinese healing rebuffed, you are off to greener pastures. What is the

>surprise?

>

>Paul



In your haste to further discredit me, you've responded to the wrong Marcia.

That post was from Marcia Wilson, Paul.  Sorry, but I'm sure you'll have the

opportunity again to sling your bitter rhetoric my way.  I didn't leave, I

just transformed.





Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:29:50 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Wilson <MWilson780@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: I'm gone as well!



>>Having utterly failed to sell your products and having your false ideas of

>>Chinese healing rebuffed, you are off to greener pastures. What is the

>>surprise?



>>Paul





Hey everybody, Tjis is the kind of nice e-mail Paul just sent me.  Once

again, the egg is on his face, because I do not sell any herbal products.

It's just Pauls most favorite excuse to try to intimidate people.  Oops,

forgive me, I send out free copies of my newsletter to people on here if they

request it. So sue me for trying to share!





Paul

You are indeed an arrogant one aren't you.  For the umpteenth time I DO NOT

SELL PRODUCTS   and you are a fool for accusing everyone that makes a comment

of this.  No, thats not the only reason you are a fool.  You indeed must have

a mirror shoved up your nose and one more place I can think of because I am

sure you have a hard time trying to see out your colon with your head so far

up there.



And for your information, I moved to the HERB_MED list where much much more

real knowlegde about herbs can be learned and everyone is treated with

respect.



Glad to be rid of you and from now on your mail will be screened out.



Totally disgusted that this "egotistical monster"  is allowed to continue

this charade - and yes Paul, you have been kicked off many many lists!  OH

YES - AS YOU SO PUT IT - WHAT A SUPRISE!!!



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 15:28:08 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: System cleansing/Paul purging

In-Reply-To:  <323059A3.7581@a.crl.com>



>Paul Iannone wrote:

>

>> No, it is a part of the plant chemistry, and ALL the cabbage plants  >

>>can have this problem (broccoli, cauliflower, kale...).

>

>** Paul, you are full of cabbage. I left this list due to cyanide-lipped

>   people like you. Don't you have a life? You're an embarrassment.

>   Poor Gabe's mailbox is full of your posts. Why don't you take up

>   knitting? It keeps your hands busy and while we hope your mind as

>   well will be occupied, I fear nothing will extract you from deluging

>   the list with your Papal pap and self-righteous excresence.

>

>   Love,     (don't respond to Gabe he's on vacation)

>

>   Rob -   <RB233>      robbee@herb.com      robbee@metro.net

>   - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



Herb.com, eh?



Robbee, perhaps you have learned of an email program called Eudora? It will

very handily trash all my posts for Gabe, sight unseen. As for my choice of

hobbies, what business is that of yours? Oh...I see, it IS your *business.*



Why am I not startled by this fact?



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 15:33:11 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: I'm gone as well!

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960909214028.00abe21c@mail.halcyon.com>



>At 01:18 PM 9/9/96 -0700, you wrote:

>>>To all the NICE people on this list I wish you luck but I cannot waste my

>>>time reading the war of Paul!  If I wanted that kind of amusement I'd watch

>>>soap opera's.  I'm off to the Herb-Med list. It is proving to be quite nice.

>>>

>>>Marcia

>>

>>Having utterly failed to sell your products and having your false ideas of

>>Chinese healing rebuffed, you are off to greener pastures. What is the

>>surprise?

>>

>>Paul

>

>In your haste to further discredit me, you've responded to the wrong Marcia.

>That post was from Marcia Wilson, Paul.  Sorry, but I'm sure you'll have the

>opportunity again to sling your bitter rhetoric my way.  I didn't leave, I

>just transformed.

>

>

>Marcia Elston



Oops! My sincere apologies. Here I thought we had reached some sort of

understanding, and then I saw this post and thought you had *reverted*. All

that evolutionary effort gone to waste!



My apologies for mistaking the last names involved.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 15:17:57 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Howie Brounstein <howieb@TELEPORT.COM>

Subject:      Re: Guarana (Paullinia Cupana)



>alcholic drink.  Used as a source of caffeine and flavoring for soft drinks,

>liquers and candy.

SNIP



Sweetened paste is known as "Brazilian chocolate."

>Seeds contain up to seven percent of a caffeinelike compound known as

>"guaranine."  Unlike caffeine, it is not addictive and takes longer to be

>metabolized, giving it a gentler more sustained stimulant effect.  It has

>recently been promoted as a safe, natural stimulant by the health-food

>industry in the form of capsules and candy.  Stems of the closely related P.

>yoco are used by native people in Columbia, Ecuador, and northern Peru to

>make a similar drink.





Guarna IS a caffeine containing product ..... although played down by some

..... and should be treated as such.



Howie Brounstein

howieb@teleport.com

http://www.teleport.com/~howieb/howie.html



"It's easy to harvest wild plants, the hard part is not harvesting."



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 20:42:13 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Will Bason <wbason@SWVA.NET>

Subject:      Astragalus?



Hello everyone,



        A friend gave me some seeds she said were astragalus a few years

ago and i've been growing these nice little plants from them that look like

vetch.  The root doesn't look or smell like astragalus membranicus  though,

a tincture made from it is reddish and smells acrid and bitter. The seeds

are small, tan and come two to four or so in little sickle shaped pods.

        Can someone set me straight on this?



                                        sincerely,

                                                will



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 19:00:19 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Astragalus?

In-Reply-To:  <v01510100ae5a3e510949@[206.99.244.84]>



>Hello everyone,

>

>        A friend gave me some seeds she said were astragalus a few years

>ago and i've been growing these nice little plants from them that look like

>vetch.  The root doesn't look or smell like astragalus membranicus  though,

>a tincture made from it is reddish and smells acrid and bitter. The seeds

>are small, tan and come two to four or so in little sickle shaped pods.

>        Can someone set me straight on this?

>

>                                        sincerely,

>                                                will



Well, astragalus is indeed a vetch. Are you sure these are

**membranaceous**? Plenty of astragalus' are poisonous!



>From the utterly excellent 'Herbal Emissaries' (Foster & Yue, Healing Arts

Press, VT):



"A. membranaceus is an herbaceous perrenial that grows to about 2 feet

tall, with sprawling stems. The leaves are alternate, dividing into 12-24

oval to elliptical-shaped leaflets. Stipules are lance shaped. The small,

light yellow, pea like flowers are borne on racemes extending from the leaf

axils. Hard dark-brown, kidney shaped seeds, about 1/8 inch long, are

enclosed in papery, two-valved pods about an inch in length. The pods have

short hairs on the exterior. A. memb. var. mongholicus is very similar but

has triangular-ovate stipules, and 25-37 leaflets, which are shorter and

wider. The flowers are dark yellow and the seed pods without hair."



Also discussed in brief are a number of substitute species of the genus

used in Chinese healing, as well as root preparation. Unfortunately, no

description of the root in that text. If I recall, I'll check elsewhere

when I get back from Taijiquan practice later tonight.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 19:01:35 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Astragalus?



At 08:42 PM 9/9/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Hello everyone,

>

>        A friend gave me some seeds she said were astragalus a few years

>ago and i've been growing these nice little plants from them that look like

>vetch.  The root doesn't look or smell like astragalus membranicus  though,

>a tincture made from it is reddish and smells acrid and bitter. The seeds

>are small, tan and come two to four or so in little sickle shaped pods.

>        Can someone set me straight on this?

>

>                                        sincerely,

>                                                will

>

>





Hi Will,



Are you saying that vetch is something other than astralagus?  I was taught

that Astralagalus membranaceus is commonly known as milk vetch.  Perennial

with grooved, hairy stems and leaves divided into 12-18 pairs of leaflets.

Racemes of yellow Pea flowers 3/4 in. (2cm) long, appear in early summer,

followed by pendulous pods up to 6 in. (15cm) long.



Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 19:01:15 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Anita Hales <hales1@KTN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Astragalus?



Astragalus membranaceus is also called milk-vetch or huang qi.  However

there are other plants also called "Vetch" which are unrelated to

Astragalus and are toxic to ingest.  Other vetches in the Pacific Northwest

include:  Vicia americana, Vicia cracca, V. gigantea, V. sativa.  The last

two have some indigenous uses.  V. gigantea was used by native peoples for

both food and medicine in small quantities.  V. sativa  was cultivated in

Europe for fodder.  Vetches are not recommended to ingest.







***********************************************************

Self-Heal (Prunella)  "...it serveth for the same that

Bugle doth, and in the world, there are not two

better wound herbes, as hath been been often

 proved."

John Gerard, 1597

************************************************************



----------

>

> Are you saying that vetch is something other than astralagus?  I was

taught

> that Astralagalus membranaceus is commonly known as milk vetch.

Perennial

> with grooved, hairy stems and leaves divided into 12-18 pairs of

leaflets.

> Racemes of yellow Pea flowers 3/4 in. (2cm) long, appear in early summer,

> followed by pendulous pods up to 6 in. (15cm) long.

>

> Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

> Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

>                                   Herbal Indulgence

>                  http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 20:08:44 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         linda/richard <kyote@WOLFENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Signoff



------ =_NextPart_000_01BB9E8A.B5E85BC0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit







----------

From:   Paul Iannone[SMTP:pi2@LOOP.COM]

Sent:   Monday, September 09, 1996 12:57 PM

To:     Multiple recipients of list HERB

Subject:        Re: Signoff







Btw, anyone got a good rose petal cream recipe???





paul;

what a great sense of humor you have!

richard



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From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 20:55:59 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Carlos Becerra Quiroz <esenio@TELNOR.NET>

Subject:      epilobium parviflorum



Hello everybody:

I am new in this Forum, my apologies if my first post is a question.

Do you know something about EPILOBIO (epilobium parviflorum)? I am very

interested in this Herb. Do you know where get it? If somebody can help me,

I will be hapy.

Carlos

---------------------------

toth@hotmail.com



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 22:30:17 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Howie Brounstein <howieb@TELEPORT.COM>

Subject:      Re: Astragalus?



At 08:42 PM 9/9/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Hello everyone,

>

>        A friend gave me some seeds she said were Astragalus a few years

>ago and I've been growing these nice little plants from them that look like

>vetch.  The root doesn't look or smell like Astragalus membranicus  though,

>a tincture made from it is reddish and smells acrid and bitter. The seeds

>are small, tan and come two to four or so in little sickle shaped pods.

>        Can someone set me straight on this?

>

>                                        sincerely,

>                                                will

>

>

Will,



1. Astragalus are hard to identify

Careful with that tincture! There are many different kinds of Astragalus. In

the Pacific Northwest alone Hitchcock lists 93 species (not including

subspecies). These can be very difficult to tell apart, in fact, quite

maddening. At the plant show this year I keyed one Astragalus out that

literally split hairs ... or at least required me to look under a microscope

at hairs a few mm long to see how they branched!



2. Common names are bogus

Astragalus is called Milk-vetch, Vetch, Poison Vetch, Locoweed. Vetches are

generally Vicia, and as Anita said, poison. Yet Poison vetch might be an

Astragalus. Locoweed is a name for numerous poisonous plants, and is a good

indication of strong physiological activity .. poison or drop dosage plants.



3. If one species is used medicinally, you cannot always assume the other

species in the genus has similar properties.

All the Rosa spp. make good Rose Petal Creams, but not all Astragalus are

medicinal. Most of the species are TOXIC! Only a handful are useful. THROW

THAT TINCTURE AWAY. or at least stash it in a safe place away from the kids

or anyone else, and label it poison until you have a positive ID.



4. Never take an unknown herb internally (this goes for unknown substances

in general).

 Take some of the plant, in flower and see with some stem, and root if

possible, to your local herbarium for ID if you don't know how to, or know

someone who knows how to key Astragalus out.



5. Legumes in general are difficult to digest and often borderline

edible/poison.

Even the wild pea Lathyrus, related to the garden pea, has species that are

poison to eat. I generally avoid eating anything from this whole family from

the wild, except for certain plants like Clover, Trifolium. Some are

passable cooked or fermented. Certainly there are indigenous uses for many

of these plants, but they knew which species at what time and how to prepare

them, plus they had been eating these foods all their lives. Many times this

type of plant knowledge is unavailable or lost to us.







Howie Brounstein

howieb@teleport.com

http://www.teleport.com/~howieb/howie.html



"It's easy to harvest wild plants, the hard part is not harvesting."



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 22:51:27 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: epilobium parviflorum

In-Reply-To:  <199609100355.UAA08740@telnor.net>



>Hello everybody:

>I am new in this Forum, my apologies if my first post is a question.

>Do you know something about EPILOBIO (epilobium parviflorum)? I am very

>interested in this Herb. Do you know where get it? If somebody can help me,

>I will be hapy.

>Carlos

>---------------------------

>toth@hotmail.com



I believe that this is the herb packaged by a Swiss company, name escapes

me, available in health food stores as something like 'small-flowered

willow.' They package their herbs loose in green bags...perhaps someone

knows to what company I refer.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 23:03:46 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Astragalus?

In-Reply-To:  <199609100308.TAA04179@alaska.ktn.net>



>Astragalus membranaceus is also called milk-vetch or huang qi.  However

>there are other plants also called "Vetch" which are unrelated to

>Astragalus and are toxic to ingest.



There are plenty of Astragalus species that are toxic too (these are the

famous 'locoweeds').



Vetch simply refers to fodder plants that have a twiny aspect, like peas.

Alfalfa is the most famous vetch.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 23:01:44 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Astragalus?

In-Reply-To:  <v03007805ae5a7aa8c523@[206.138.118.127]>



>>Hello everyone,

>>

>>        A friend gave me some seeds she said were astragalus a few years

>>ago and i've been growing these nice little plants from them that look like

>>vetch.  The root doesn't look or smell like astragalus membranicus  though,

>>a tincture made from it is reddish and smells acrid and bitter. The seeds

>>are small, tan and come two to four or so in little sickle shaped pods.

>>        Can someone set me straight on this?

>>

>>                                        sincerely,

>>                                                will



"The roots are cylindrical in shape, 20 to 40 or sometimes 60 cm in length

and from 0.6 to 2.5, and sometimes 4 cm in thickness. Their outer surface

is gray-brown, and they bulge slightly at the end. They may bear wrinkles,

horizontal lenticels, and the marks of removed finer roots. The skin of

thicker roots is easily removed revealing a reticular fiber structure. The

flesh is hard and crisp, and snaps easily. It is yellowish white, and

lighter in the woodier parts."



"White-skinned astragalus has a pale yellow-brown skin tightly attached to

the wood. The cross section shows a pale outer layer surrounding a deep

yellow central core."



"Hedysarum mongolicum [a substitute for A. membranaceous]...has a reddish

skin and a white, farinaceous core."



Source: The Illustrated Chinese Materia Medica: Crude and Prepared, by Yen,

Kun-Ying (SMC Publishing, Taipei).



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 23:16:41 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Astragalus?

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.16.19960910053017.25077fc2@mail.teleport.com>



Howie said:



>3. If one species is used medicinally, you cannot always assume the other

>species in the genus has similar properties.

>All the Rosa spp. make good Rose Petal Creams, but not all Astragalus are

>medicinal. Most of the species are TOXIC! Only a handful are useful. THROW

>THAT TINCTURE AWAY. or at least stash it in a safe place away from the kids

>or anyone else, and label it poison until you have a positive ID.



Well, to be fair to the genus, most of the danger has been noted in

foraging cattle, at high dosages, and often as a result of these pea-like

plants having a strong tendency to uptake toxic minerals from the soil.

They are not necessarily strongly toxic as a result of intrinsic chemistry.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 00:07:31 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Bad, bad beans, was Re: Astragalus?

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.16.19960910053017.25077fc2@mail.teleport.com>



Howie said:

>5. Legumes in general are difficult to digest and often borderline

>edible/poison.

>Even the wild pea Lathyrus, related to the garden pea, has species that are

>poison to eat. I generally avoid eating anything from this whole family from

>the wild, except for certain plants like Clover, Trifolium. Some are

>passable cooked or fermented. Certainly there are indigenous uses for many

>of these plants, but they knew which species at what time and how to prepare

>them, plus they had been eating these foods all their lives. Many times this

>type of plant knowledge is unavailable or lost to us.



A bit more data on this:



Bean dangers fall in four major categories (not including fatal flatulence,

the verbal form of which being something I have oft been accused of):



Glutamate blockers: There is a well-known illness in rural cultures that

rely on legumes,lathyrism (aka ketharism), which involves irreversable

degeneration of the spine causing paralysis. You have to be stuck in a

drought having nothing else to eat to have that problem occur...a good

thing since the Lathyrus in question is L. sativa, the chick or garbanzo

pea (mmm!). The choice between starvation and paralysis is particularly

ironic natural danger. These chemicals damage the nervous system by

blocking glutamate receptors.



Genetic predisposition: Favism is another well-known illness, rarely fatal,

from toxic enzymes in fava beans. The illness occurs when a person has a

lack of a certain antioxidant that protects glutathione from being oxidized

by those enzymes---which is important because glutathione is the main

chemical that keeps your red blood cells from being damaged.



Cyanide: Improperly prepared lima beans are another of those cyanide risks

I am so reviled for pointing out of late.



Lectins (hemagglutinins): Soy beans cannot be ground to make nursing

formulas without being heated first, since they like many beans contain the

same class of toxins that make castor beans so fatal. Phaseolus vulgaris

(kidney beans, haricot, black, white, navy, wax, and 'French snap

beans'...all cultivars) does kill people on a regular basis, though

non-fatal severe diarrhea is more common. As the name suggests, these

chemicals have a fatal capacity to clump blood cells. Ouch.



Paul



Btw, the poison in Vicia is the same class (protease inhibitors, interfere

with digestive enzymes and causing pancreatitis) found in raw potatoes.

Let's not even get STARTED talking about the potential deadly

pentapeptidesBad found in BGA.



Thanks to the hard to find book 'Xenobiosis' for the juicy details on this

subject.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 02:00:25 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Joco Cardoso <rodas@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Thin Skinned Net Newbies would rather bitch than switch



On Mon, 9 Sep 1996 13:58:46 -0700 Ed Kochanowski <egk@EGK.COM> writes:

>Come on people, if you don't like the list, just leave, no need to

>bitch,

>just go!

>

>You people complain constantly yet fail to realize that your

>complaints

>are much worse than anything paul has ever written.

>

>If you hate the way this list is run so much why do you force yourself

>to

>stay subscribed?   Is this a mental condition?  Is there a herbal

>treatment for it?

>

>--Ed

>

Hello Mister Ed



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 9 Sep 1996 22:57:06 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Howie Brounstein <howieb@TELEPORT.COM>

Subject:      Re: Astragalus?



 I generally avoid eating anything from this whole family from

>the wild, except for certain plants like Clover, Trifolium. Some are

>passable cooked or fermented.





Perhaps this needs clarification: I eat clovers freely. Some of the

"poisonous" Pea Family plants are edible or medicinal when cooked or

fermented .....



Where's my proofreader?













Howie Brounstein

howieb@teleport.com

http://www.teleport.com/~howieb/howie.html



"It's easy to harvest wild plants, the hard part is not harvesting."



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:26:29 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Sandy Horner <sjhorner@DISCOVER-NET.NET>

Subject:      Re: Astragalus?



At 08:42 PM 9/9/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Hello everyone,

>

>        A friend gave me some seeds she said were astragalus a few years

>ago and i've been growing these nice little plants from them that look like

>vetch.  The root doesn't look or smell like astragalus membranicus  though,

>a tincture made from it is reddish and smells acrid and bitter. The seeds

>are small, tan and come two to four or so in little sickle shaped pods.

>        Can someone set me straight on this?

>

>                                        sincerely,

>                                                will

>

Hello!

I planted some seeds this past spring that Richter's assures me is

astragalus (milk vetch), and it has been doing pretty well in my test plot

garden that I started this year.  I would love some more information on

handling and harvesting of this herb.  They look pretty small, so I am

assuming that they need at least another year in the ground (maybe more?)



Thank you so much for any information,

Sandy

From near to far

From here to there

Funny things are everywhere

                 - Dr. Seuss



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:44:00 CDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Mickie Erickson <Mickie@DECISIONSYS.COM>

Subject:      Pregnancy Tea



I picked up what is toted as a pregnancy tea blend at my local co-op (no

I don't sell it, I don't sell anything).  The herbs listed are Raspberry

leaf, nettles, peppermint, ginger, burdock root and yellow dock.  I

looked each of these up in my herbals (my two primary references are

Growing & using the healing herbs by Gaea & Shandor Weiss, and A Modern

Herbal by Mrs. M. Grieve) and this is what they had to say:



Raspberry leaf:  Astringent, Tones the uterus, good as a gargle for

cancer sores & other mouth ailments, good for stomach aches in children.



Nettles: Good for anemia,  diuretic,  Nourishes the liver? (Weiss says

yes, Grieves says no), anti-asmatic and used by native americans to

produce small, healthy, easy to deliver babies.



Peppermint, stimulates circulation, digestive aid.  I'm assuming they

added this mainly for taste.



Ginger: Strengthens kidney/bladder/uterus, stimulative;



Burdock root:  Diuretic and Diaphoretic (what does diaphoretic mean?),

blood purifier, good for various skin diseases, tonic for lungs and

liver.



Yellow dock: Laxative tonic, also good for various skin diseases.



Now my questions,  this looks like a pretty good mix to me, although I'm

not sure why the burdock is in there, unless it's 'generally really good

stuff' or is its diuretic properties supposed to help with swollen feet?

  How much should I drink?  I am currently 37 weeks pregnant.  Is it ok

to make up a bunch and sip it all day, or should it be drank hot at

certain times (Weiss says 1 cup, hot 1/2 hour before meals for raspberry

leaf tea).   Also would it be ok to make up some to take to the hospital

to drink during labor?  With my first they only wanted me to nibble ice

chips and I was rediculously dehydrated afterwards (they said that if I

had anything more, it would make me nauseous).





Mickie

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Mickie Erickson (mickie@decisionsys.com)



  "You are finite, Zathrus is finite, this is wrong tool"

                                              - Zathrus, Babylon 5



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:46:46 GMT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Phyllis Johnpoll <phyllis.johnpoll@NCSL.ORG>

Organization: National Conference of State Legislatures

Subject:      Saltpeter



I'm not sure if it qualifies as an herb, but I don't know where else to

turn. A rumor reached me that the local county jail spikes their food

and/or coffee with saltpeter. I know back at the turn of the century it

was believed that saltpeter (isn't that potassium nitrate?) reduced

sexual cravings, but the Victorian era is gone and this characteristic

of what I always thought was just an ingredient in self-igniting incense

has been discounted. Then I was told that not only is it no longer

considered to have anaphrodisiac properties, it's listed as a poison in

some references. (I don't have any of these references to turn to.)



Does anyone know anything about this? Is it considered a poison, and if

so, how poisonous is it? I don't know that it really is being included

in the food at this jail (it was just a rumor) but if it is, should

this matter go to those folks who advocate humane treatment of

prisoners, or is it just another silly anachronism of the penal system?



*BB*



ptj



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:15:09 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Karen Fite@aol.com" <KarenFite@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Herb List Alternatives



Would someone mind sharing what some of the other Herb lists are and how to

subsribe to them.  Hopefully some of the other lists are a bit more friendly

and maybe the healers come from a place of love.  I'm on a number of healing

type lists for learning purposes and this is the only obnoxious one that

seems to waist my time.  It's also the only herb list I've tried so I would

greatly appreciate learning what the alternatives are.  Thanks!



Karen Fite

Tulsa, OK



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:30:59 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Kelly Wemmers <kwemmers@SIRIUS.COM>

Subject:      Re: epilobium parviflorum



>>Hello everybody:

>>I am new in this Forum, my apologies if my first post is a question.

>>Do you know something about EPILOBIO (epilobium parviflorum)? I am very

>>interested in this Herb. Do you know where get it? If somebody can help me,

>>I will be hapy.

>>Carlos

>>---------------------------

>>toth@hotmail.com

>

>I believe that this is the herb packaged by a Swiss company, name escapes

>me, available in health food stores as something like 'small-flowered

>willow.' They package their herbs loose in green bags...perhaps someone

>knows to what company I refer.

>

>Paul



And be accused of working for them? You must be joking!



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:42:42 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         John Stankiewicz <radiant@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject:      Re: Pregnancy Tea



At 09:44 AM 9/10/96 CDT, you wrote:

>I picked up what is toted as a pregnancy tea blend at my local co-op (no

>I don't sell it, I don't sell anything).  The herbs listed are Raspberry

>leaf, nettles, peppermint, ginger, burdock root and yellow dock.  I

>looked each of these up in my herbals (my two primary references are

>Growing & using the healing herbs by Gaea & Shandor Weiss, and A Modern

>Herbal by Mrs. M. Grieve) and this is what they had to say:

>



Mickie, as far as I am aware, you should not take any herbs that have a

cleansing effect on the liver or kidneys or blood as there is too much of a

danger that the child will receive some of the toxins.  That would rule out

burdock and yellow dock for sure.



John.

http://www.radiant-living.com (where we try to avoid premature cognitive

commitments or old paradigms and present new ones!)

The average person has about 65,000 thoughts a day.  What is disconcerting

is that more than 95% of the thoughts are the same ones as the person had

yesterday.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:16:11 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Maureen Rogers <HERBWORLD@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Herb List Alternatives



Karen (and others)

Check out the Potpourri section of HerbNET (http://www.herbnet.com/) for all

the lists (and links) for herbs.....there are a number of excellent

ones.....and I think I'm going to remove this one from that list....



Maureen

Herb Growing and Marketing Network



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:52:03 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ellen Gary <bludevil@CRIS.COM>

Subject:      Hot Flashes



{Please excuse me if this is a duplicate - this was returned to me as

undeliverable!}



>>>> If you think you MAY be dehydrated, you probably are.

>>>>

>>>> Paul-----------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>Paul,

>>>This is not an answer!! Your smart, SHOW US!!!

>>>Us "Common Folk" would like to KNOW!!!!!!!!!!

>>>

>>>Randy and Cathy Froeba

>>

>>I agree.  I have been a subscriber to this list for a short while, enjoying

>>_most_ of the information sharing.  But Paul, Randy & Cathy (and others)

>>have a good point.  Since you are obviously knowledgeable, please let that

>>speak for itself.  Simply share with us.  There is no need to flaunt your

>>knowledge or condescend to the rest of us.

>>

>>Speaking for myself, I am here to learn.  Your tone is such that I "tune"

>>most of your messages out.  How can you possibly help anyone that way?

>>

>>Ellen

>

>Don't whine to me if you can't understand simple answers to questions! Just

>because a subject doesn't have a complex answer doesn't mean it is wrong or

>that I am being rude. This issue is just that simple: IF you think you

>MIGHT be dehydrated, you probably ARE! Go get a glass of water.

>

>No reason to make this more complex than that. Perhaps you are not aware

>that studies have shown that most Americans are subclinically dehydrated.

>

>Paul



Who's whining?



  Merely making a point, as do you.



Why did you think the answer wasn't understood?



  A desire for some information does not constitute misunderstanding.

  And you are sometimes rude.



Now a couple of questions:



  What about hormonal balances as related to hot flashes?  What if your

diet is a good, healthy diet but you suffer from hot flashes _only_ due to

menopause and the hormonal changes/imbalance that menopause causes?  I've

noticed that because I, unfortunately, suffer these hot flashes, my thirst

is greatly increased.  These flashes result in being extremely hot, of

course, clammy skin while the flash is "raging", and an increase in

perspiration.  I attributed my thirst increase to this loss of fluid from

the sweating.  What would your advice be on this, Paul?



Ellen



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:59:53 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ellen Gary <bludevil@CRIS.COM>

Subject:      Re: Thin Skinned Net Newbies would rather bitch than switch



>Come on people, if you don't like the list, just leave, no need to bitch,

>just go!

>

>You people complain constantly yet fail to realize that your complaints

>are much worse than anything paul has ever written.

>

>If you hate the way this list is run so much why do you force yourself to

>stay subscribed?   Is this a mental condition?  Is there a herbal

>treatment for it?

>

>--Ed





Because we joined the list to learn.  NOT to be lectured at or condescended

to.  To learn.  That is all.  It's sad that the majority does not have a

voice here and that Paul has ruined for so many of us the chance to learn.



Ellen



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:24:27 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes



At 01:52 PM 9/10/96 -0500, you wrote:

>

>

>Now a couple of questions:

>

>  What about hormonal balances as related to hot flashes?  What if your

>diet is a good, healthy diet but you suffer from hot flashes _only_ due to

>menopause and the hormonal changes/imbalance that menopause causes?  I've

>noticed that because I, unfortunately, suffer these hot flashes, my thirst

>is greatly increased.  These flashes result in being extremely hot, of

>course, clammy skin while the flash is "raging", and an increase in

>perspiration.  I attributed my thirst increase to this loss of fluid from

>the sweating.  What would your advice be on this, Paul?

>

>Ellen



I see no indication that hot flashes cause dehydration.  However, you most

definitely should always drink water when you experience thirst.  You should

drink water before you experience thirst.  I have a tendency to forget to

drink water until I am thirsty....a bad thing to do.  I now keep a full

glass of water on my desk or at my side constantly and make check marks on

my calendar for every glass I drink so that I know I am drinking the

appropriate amount.  There are phytosterol-rich herbs that can help reduce

frequency and intensity of hot flashes, Black Cohosh, for one.  Herbalist

Silena Heron's basic menopausal formula (which she adjusts to fit your

specific needs) includes two parts chaste tree, one part each motherwort,

false unicorn, DongQuai/Dang Gui, garden sage and St. John's wort and one

half part each black cohosh, licorice, black haw, alfalfa and dandeliion.

Rina Nissim, Swiss herbalist, suggests tincture or glycerine macerate of

black current buds, raspberry leaves, sweet briar (rose) hips and leaf buds.

Fenugreek seed is phytosterol-rich and makes a nice tea that makes you smell

like sweet maple syrup when you flash.  Gregorita Rodriquez recommends yerba

de zorillo;wormseed (Chenopodium ambrosioides), escoba de la vibora/yellow

snakeweed (Gutierrezia sarothrae), and yerba mansa/lizards tail (Anemopsis

californica) equal parts in tea.  Dr. Christopher's phytosterol-rich herbs

in "Chagese" his formula for "the change" includes American ginseng,

licorice, sarsaparilla, black cohosh, false unicorn, blessed thirstle and

spikenard.  Liver nourishing herbs to ease flashing:  dandelion (Taraxacum

officinale), Ho Shou Wu (Polygonum multiflorum), Yellow dock (Rumex crispus)

and Milk thistle (Syllibum), as well as Chicory (Cichorium intybus),

Oatstraw and Burdock.  Cooling herbs include Chickweed (Stellaria media),

Elder flower (Sambucus species), Violet (Viola), as well as Oatstraw, mint,

seaweeds and all mallows (Malva) and flowers and leaves of any hibiscus.

Garden sage as a simple, infused then diluted 1-4 tablespoons in a cup of

hot or cold water before bedtime helps night sweats.  Not an herb, but I've

heard that women with Earthquake Flahes may take vitamin E in high doses

(800-1200 IU daily)  CAUTION:  Vit E supplements over 100 IU are generally

contraindicated for womjen with diabetes, high blood pressure or rheumatic

heart conditions, as well as those taking digitalis or anticoagulants.

Postmenopausal women may suddenly have a menses or two after taking vitamin

E supplements.  Stop or reduce dosage in this case.



Regards,





Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:13:29 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: epilobium parviflorum

In-Reply-To:  <v01520d01ae5b562e0bd4@[205.134.234.33]>



>>>Hello everybody:

>>>I am new in this Forum, my apologies if my first post is a question.

>>>Do you know something about EPILOBIO (epilobium parviflorum)? I am very

>>>interested in this Herb. Do you know where get it? If somebody can help me,

>>>I will be hapy.

>>>Carlos

>>>---------------------------

>>>toth@hotmail.com

>>

>>I believe that this is the herb packaged by a Swiss company, name escapes

>>me, available in health food stores as something like 'small-flowered

>>willow.' They package their herbs loose in green bags...perhaps someone

>>knows to what company I refer.

>>

>>Paul

>

>And be accused of working for them? You must be joking!



Har, har. I remember now that these are the Maria Treben people. Any health

food store should be able to get this stuff.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:05:31 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Astragalus?

In-Reply-To:  <9609100824.aa03609@discover.discover-net.net>



>I planted some seeds this past spring that Richter's assures me is

>astragalus (milk vetch), and it has been doing pretty well in my test plot

>garden that I started this year.  I would love some more information on

>handling and harvesting of this herb.  They look pretty small, so I am

>assuming that they need at least another year in the ground (maybe more?)



>From Herbal Emissaries:



"[Astragalus] roots are harvested after the fourth or fifth year of growth,

usually in autumn, though sometimes in spring. Lateral rootlets are

removed, the crown is cut off of the root, and the main root is dried in

the sun until about 60 to 70 percent dry. The roots are then sorted

according to size and straightened. Next they are tied into small bundles

and completely dried. Before 100 percent dry, they are usually sliced

lengthwise into pieces about 3/16 inch thick. If already dry, the roots are

covered with a moist cloth until they absorb some moisture so they can be

sliced with ease."



As you can see, Herbal Emissaries is an excellent resource for those

interested in culivating Chinese herbal plants.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:19:52 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Herb List Alternatives

In-Reply-To:  <960910131610_519756352@emout03.mail.aol.com>



>Karen (and others)

>Check out the Potpourri section of HerbNET (http://www.herbnet.com/) for all

>the lists (and links) for herbs.....there are a number of excellent

>ones.....and I think I'm going to remove this one from that list....

>

>Maureen

>*************Herb Growing and Marketing Network************



Hey, all you crybabies! JUST LEAVE. Enough of your guilt-trips. There are

other places for you to be, where you will feel more at home, so GO. It's a

free Internet, and I have already long ago promised that I won't

intentionally follow people who dislike the sort of interchange that I and

others like. This list isn't going to die because YOU don't like it, even

if there are ten of you.



Another frustrated entrepreneur splits! A cause for celebration.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:43:38 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Doug Grinder <dgrin@AGT.NET>

Subject:      [Fwd: Re: Ginkgo and drug interactions]

Comments: cc: dgrin@agt.BITNET



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I agree that Prozac is a horrible drug, but I was going to recomend

Ginkgo to her because of her memory problem. Do you think that it is the

Prozac that is cauing it? Will giving her Ginkgo help her and will it

react adversly to Prozac?



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> Does anyone know of any adverse drug interactions to Ginkgo?

>  I am considering recommending it to my Grandmother who is on

>  Prozac, is diabetic and has high blood pressure.

>

>                    Christine

>

               My aunt was on prozac for 6 years and passed away last

year after 4 months of terrible suffering.  Her lung tumor spread to

the brain and finished her in weeks. She never smoked in her life. I

am one of those who believes that prozac is the guilty party for

tumor formation.

LES





--------------6A1154534906--



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:47:09 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Thin Skinned Net Newbies would rather bitch than switch

In-Reply-To:  <v01540b01ae5b6a8f02db@[206.173.76.31]>



On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Ellen Gary wrote:



> >If you hate the way this list is run so much why do you force yourself to

> >stay subscribed?   Is this a mental condition?  Is there a herbal

> >treatment for it?

> >

> >--Ed

>

>

> Because we joined the list to learn.  NOT to be lectured at or condescended

> to.  To learn.  That is all.  It's sad that the majority does not have a

> voice here and that Paul has ruined for so many of us the chance to learn.

>

> Ellen

>



I agree with Ed here.  All these grand melodramatic exit messages are far

more irritating than the things Paul posts are.  'Paul has ruined for so

many of us the chance to learn?'  Come now.  Given that Paul is often

(usually?) abrasive, how does this ruin your chance to learn from others?

If you aren't learning anything from others, then this is hardly Paul's

fault.  He is one person with one (albiet rather insistent) opinion.



If someone is unhappy with the list then just quietly disengage yourself

from it.  Spare those of us who do not allow Paul to irk us the bland and

petty 'I just can't take Paul any more.  He's such a meanie!' swan songs.



Cordially,







-C



ps.  What did you mean when you said that it was sad that the majority

voice can't be heard here?  WHich majority voice is being squelched and

what is stopping it from being heard?



 ___

___ |_|___                              _______________|_|

|_||_|       The Elements           |_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_|______________________________|_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_|Ah, love. The walks over soft grass, the smiles |_|

|_|over candlelight, the arguments over just about |_|

|_|everything else.  |_||_||_| -Max Headroom |_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_|

      __________________________________________

      |_|cbendix@nunic.nu.edu |_||_||_||_||_||_|

      |_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:06:22 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Donna Ferrara <FERRARA@WCUVAX1.WCU.EDU>

Subject:      controversy



I for one, can deal with Paul much better than I can with all of his "enemies."

You are the ones who are wasting everyone's time and curtailing any learning

with your name calling.  As a whole, I find your comments terribly hurtful for

people who interested in healing and the well being of people.  He may be

harsh, but you all are cruel in your judgments.  If you want to leave, then

please LEAVE and stop prolonging this barrage of garbage you're throwing at the

list and at Paul.  Good ridance!!!

Donna



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:09:27 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Thin Skinned Net Newbies would rather bitch than switch

In-Reply-To:  <v01540b01ae5b6a8f02db@[206.173.76.31]>



>Because we joined the list to learn.  NOT to be lectured at or condescended

>to.  To learn.  That is all.  It's sad that the majority does not have a

>voice here and that Paul has ruined for so many of us the chance to learn.

>

>Ellen



No, most of you want the right to continue the spread of herb rumors,

half-truths, guesswork, and entrepreneurial Panacea.



I am admittedly anti-Naturopathic, or at least I recognize that

Naturopathic means are appropriate to Yang-constitution people only, who

are in short supply these days, and who DON'T make up most of the people

looking for healing. It is a theory from a bygone time in American/European

culture. On this count I can be taken to task.



But there's no WAY you can claim that I spoiled your chance to *learn* by

critiquing the boneheaded sloppiness that passes as herbal lore on the

Internet. For that you can go elsewhere, and good riddance---less noise to

battle with.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:24:06 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960910192427.00a83b14@mail.halcyon.com>



>At 01:52 PM 9/10/96 -0500, you wrote:

>>

>>

>>Now a couple of questions:

>>

>>  What about hormonal balances as related to hot flashes?  What if your

>>diet is a good, healthy diet but you suffer from hot flashes _only_ due to

>>menopause and the hormonal changes/imbalance that menopause causes?  I've

>>noticed that because I, unfortunately, suffer these hot flashes, my thirst

>>is greatly increased.  These flashes result in being extremely hot, of

>>course, clammy skin while the flash is "raging", and an increase in

>>perspiration.  I attributed my thirst increase to this loss of fluid from

>>the sweating.  What would your advice be on this, Paul?

>>

>>Ellen

>

>I see no indication that hot flashes cause dehydration.



I have already replied to this the first time around, but let me note here

that Chinese physiology tells us that hot flashes occur because of

permanent 'dehydration,' in the sense that the Cooling force (Yin) of the

body is depleted, and, like a car low on oil, it doesn't matter how much

water you pour in the radiator, it will just keep boiling out.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:33:14 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Keith Gauff <keith@CLUSTER.ENGR.SUBR.EDU>

Organization: Engineering Design Center

Subject:      Re: controversy



Donna Ferrara wrote:

>

> I for one, can deal with Paul much better than I can with all of his "enemies."

> You are the ones who are wasting everyone's time and curtailing any learning

> with your name calling.  As a whole, I find your comments terribly hurtful for

> people who interested in healing and the well being of people.  He may be

> harsh, but you all are cruel in your judgments.  If you want to leave, then

> please LEAVE and stop prolonging this barrage of garbage you're throwing at the

> list and at Paul.  Good ridance!!!

> Donna

A-men, we do not need to hear your whining.  Spare us your grief.

Keith



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:20:42 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Baptisia ( False Indigo)



I've recently added B. tinctoria (also known as wild indigo, indigoweed and

rattleweed) to my garden.  My research thus far shows that the root is the

part used and it is an acrid, bitter antiseptic herb that stimulates the

immune system and is particularly effective against bacterial infections.

Also lowers fever and has laxative and emetic effects.  Internally good for

tonsillitis and upper respiratory tract infections, but excess use causes

nausea and vomiting.  Externally used for boils, ulcers, gum disease, sore

nipples and vaginitis.  Does anyone have experience using this herb and are

there other herbs it combines well with?  I don't find strong cautions or

contraindications.  Anyone know of any?  Thanks.



Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:56:37 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes



At 01:24 PM 9/10/96 -0700, you wrote:

>>At 01:52 PM 9/10/96 -0500, you wrote:

>>>

>>>

>>>Now a couple of questions:

>>>

>>>  What about hormonal balances as related to hot flashes?  What if your

>>>diet is a good, healthy diet but you suffer from hot flashes _only_ due to

>>>menopause and the hormonal changes/imbalance that menopause causes?  I've

>>>noticed that because I, unfortunately, suffer these hot flashes, my thirst

>>>is greatly increased.  These flashes result in being extremely hot, of

>>>course, clammy skin while the flash is "raging", and an increase in

>>>perspiration.  I attributed my thirst increase to this loss of fluid from

>>>the sweating.  What would your advice be on this, Paul?

>>>

>>>Ellen

>>

>>I see no indication that hot flashes cause dehydration.

>

>I have already replied to this the first time around, but let me note here

>that Chinese physiology tells us that hot flashes occur because of

>permanent 'dehydration,' in the sense that the Cooling force (Yin) of the

>body is depleted, and, like a car low on oil, it doesn't matter how much

>water you pour in the radiator, it will just keep boiling out.

>

>Paul

>

Paul, isn't dehydration a condition in which a person's water content has

fallen to a dangerously low level?  I understand that water accounts for

about 60% of a man's and 50% of a woman's body weight and that total water

content must be kept within fairly narrow limits for healthy functioning of

cells and tissue. (About 99 percent of the molecules in the body are water.)

Our metabolic functioning is achieved by the activities of the kidneys which

control the balance between fluid intake and output by regulating the amount

of water excreeted from the body in the urine.  The minimum daily urinary

output necessary to remove waste products is about 1 pint, although most

healthy adults produce about 3.1 pints of urine a day.  Physiologically, the

amount produced in excess of the minimum is controlled mainly by ADH

(antidiuretic hormone) which is produced by the posterior portion of the

pituitary gland and acts on the kidneys to reduce water excrfetion.  Water

balance is also influenced by excessive substances (sugar or salt) and extra

water is needed.  Dehydration may occur despite increased production of ADH,

but is usually compensated for by increased water intake as a response to

thirst.  Symptons of dehydration are:  severe thirst, dry lips and tongue,

increase in heart rate and breathing, dizziness, confusion and eventual

coma.  Skin looks dry and loses its elasticity.  Any urine passed is small

in quanity and dark colored.  May be lethargy, headaches, cramps and pallor.

Most women do not experience the symptons of dehydration because of hot

flashes, especially if they are keeping their water balance within the norm.

Are you telling Ellen that she should NOT drink more water if she is dehydrated?



Marcia



Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:57:20 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         lesley bricker <lbricke@BGNET.BGSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Re: Ginkgo and drug interactions]

In-Reply-To:  <3235D2FA.C82@agt.net>



I have a friend who started taking Ginko and she was also taking Prozac.

After a week she was a "mess". The Ginko had interfered with the actions

of the Prozac.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:44:35 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960910205637.00aabc20@mail.halcyon.com>



>>>I see no indication that hot flashes cause dehydration.

>>

>>I have already replied to this the first time around, but let me note here

>>that Chinese physiology tells us that hot flashes occur because of

>>permanent 'dehydration,' in the sense that the Cooling force (Yin) of the

>>body is depleted, and, like a car low on oil, it doesn't matter how much

>>water you pour in the radiator, it will just keep boiling out.

>>

>>Paul

>>

>Paul, isn't dehydration a condition in which a person's water content has

>fallen to a dangerously low level?



Yes, yes...all snipped.



>Most women do not experience the symptons of dehydration because of hot

>flashes, especially if they are keeping their water balance within the norm.



The point is that the hot flashes and a sense of dehydration are

concomittants, with the same cause. And YES, women DO experience the

effects of this 'essential' dehydration whether or not they hydrate.



>Are you telling Ellen that she should NOT drink more water if she is

>dehydrated?

>

>Marcia



Of course not. Your Bladder will do its best to clear the Heat accumulating

in your abdomen and low back, and drinking plenty of fluids will help it do

so. Nonetheless, drinking plenty of fluids DOES NOT treat the underlying

cause, which ARE NOT as usefully described by calling them 'hormonal

imbalances,' since that is a bit of reductive biomedicine that has no

decent therapy associated with it (other than HRT, which is loaded with

problems).



Proper nourishment of the Yin aspect, depletion of which is the cause of

hot flashes, along with clearance of the Heat using specific herbs, WILL

eliminate or at least ameliorate the occurence of hot flashes. And proper

CARE of the Yin over the years will eliminate the ADVENT of hot flashes in

the first place.



You may now turn to your coffee maker and utter imprecations. It has done

you a world of harm.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:45:27 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Re: Ginkgo and drug interactions]

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.3.89.9609101617.A18815-0100000@bgnet1.bgsu.edu>



>I have a friend who started taking Ginko and she was also taking Prozac.

>After a week she was a "mess". The Ginko had interfered with the actions

>of the Prozac.



Taking stimulant herbs at the same time as psychic stimulants can

predictably cause problems, yes.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 20:44:09 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Lisa Contreras <LMCONT00@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Re: Ginkgo and drug interactions]

In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:45:27 -0700 from <pi2@LOOP.COM>



On Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:45:27 -0700 Paul Iannone said:

>>I have a friend who started taking Ginko and she was also taking Prozac.

>>After a week she was a "mess". The Ginko had interfered with the actions

>>of the Prozac.

>

>Taking stimulant herbs at the same time as psychic stimulants can

>predictably cause problems, yes.

>

>Paul



Paul:



   Gingko is a "stimulant" herb?  In the same way that caffeine is? I was

unaware of this, if this is indeed the case.  I do not drink coffee or cola

drinks because I do not tolerate the caffeine.  I do, however, take gingko

daily and do not see any similarity at all between the way I feel on gingko

and the (awful) way I feel after even one cup of coffee (usually cafe con

leche, so not even pure coffee - and only about once or twice a year when

family is visiting and they bring us Dominican coffee).  Did I miss an earlier

post where this was discussed?  Really would like to know more, since my under-

standing of gingko is, for one thing, that it improves circulation to the

brain and can be as effective as standard pharmaceutical drugs in treating seve

rely irregular heartbeat.  Coffee would certainly be contra-indicated in a

person with irregular heartbeat would it not?  So please explain if you mean

that gingko is stimulant in a different way than caffeine is, or just what it

is that it does do.



Thanks,



Lisa



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 04:46:04 +0200

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "K. Raley" <kraley@GNN.COM>

Subject:      Hot Flashes/dehydration/yin, coffee

Comments: To: pi2@LOOP.COM



Re Paul's comment on dehydration, etc.



That explanation of the kidneys working to clear heat was very

sensible to me.



Then there was:

>Proper nourishment of the Yin aspect, depletion of which is the

>cause of hot flashes, along with clearance of the Heat using

>specific herbs, WILL eliminate or at least ameliorate the

>occurence of hot flashes. And proper CARE of the Yin over the

>years will eliminate the ADVENT of hot flashes in the first

>place.

>You may now turn to your coffee maker and utter imprecations. It

>has done you a world of harm.



Other than coffee/caffeine, which I have never ingested except on

rare occasions, what else might I be doing or should have been

doing or not doing to nourish the Yin rather than deplete it?



If one has depleted Yin, then is one a like a Yang-constitution

person, and is one receptive to naturopathic means?



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 18:25:40 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Re: Ginkgo and drug interactions]



At 08:44 PM 9/10/96 EDT, you wrote:

>>

>   Gingko is a "stimulant" herb?  In the same way that caffeine is? I was

>unaware of this, if this is indeed the case.  I do not drink coffee or cola

>drinks because I do not tolerate the caffeine.  I do, however, take gingko

>daily and do not see any similarity at all between the way I feel on gingko

>and the (awful) way I feel after even one cup of coffee (usually cafe con

>leche, so not even pure coffee - and only about once or twice a year when

>family is visiting and they bring us Dominican coffee).  Did I miss an earlier

>post where this was discussed?  Really would like to know more, since my under-

>standing of gingko is, for one thing, that it improves circulation to the

>brain and can be as effective as standard pharmaceutical drugs in treating seve

>rely irregular heartbeat.  Coffee would certainly be contra-indicated in a

>person with irregular heartbeat would it not?  So please explain if you mean

>that gingko is stimulant in a different way than caffeine is, or just what it

>is that it does do.

>

>Thanks,

>

>Lisa

>

Ginko biloba is not a stimulant like coffee.  It is a bittersweet,

astringent herb that dilates bronchial tubes and blood vessels, controls

allergic responses and stimulates circulation, has antifungal anad

antibacterial effects.  Used medicinally internally for asthma, allergic

inflammatory responses, cerebral insufficiency in the elderly, circulatory

complaints such as Raynaud's disease and varicose veins, and irregular

heartbeat (leaves);  also for asthma, coughs with thick phlegm and urinary

incontinence (seeds.)



Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:26:31 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Howie Brounstein <howieb@TELEPORT.COM>

Subject:      ADH and Yohimbe



>  Physiologically, the

>amount produced in excess of the minimum is controlled mainly by ADH

>(antidiuretic hormone) which is produced by the posterior portion of the

>pituitary gland and acts on the kidneys to reduce water excrfetion.  Water

>balance is also influenced by excessive substances (sugar or salt) and extra

>water is needed.  Dehydration may occur despite increased production of ADH,

>but is usually compensated for by increased water intake as a response to

>thirst.  Symptons of dehydration are:  severe thirst, dry lips and tongue,

>increase in heart rate and breathing, dizziness, confusion and eventual

>coma.  Skin looks dry and loses its elasticity.  Any urine passed is small

>in quanity and dark colored.  May be lethargy, headaches, cramps and pallor.

>



ADH, the antidiuretic hormone, is also called vasopressin (from its other

effect of increasing blood pressure). We can tie this back to the Yohimbe

thread recently where it was mentioned that Yohimbe was a vassopresomimetic

--- mimicing the effects of vassopressin or ADH! Yohimbe is not good for

dehydration .... might indeed cause it.





Howie Brounstein

howieb@teleport.com

http://www.teleport.com/~howieb/howie.html



"It's easy to harvest wild plants, the hard part is not harvesting."



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:54:12 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Lisa Contreras <LMCONT00@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Re: Ginkgo and drug interactions]

In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue, 10 Sep 1996 18:25:40 -0700 from

              <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>



On Tue, 10 Sep 1996 18:25:40 -0700 Marcia Elston said:



Marcia:



    Thanks for replying!  Do you happen to know if commercial preparations of

gingko - capsules (won't mention any brands) are prepared with the leaves or

the seeds?  I would think probably the leaves, since I understand that you

must be careful of the seeds as toohigh an intake can cause problems.  But do

you know if certain preparations are made from the seeds?  I am still at a

point where I have to buy my herbs already "packaged" for me - not sure enough

of technique yet to be into making my own tinctures, decoctions, etc.  Would

be interested in knowing more about possible seed preparations of gingko.

TIA - Lisa

>At 08:44 PM 9/10/96 EDT, you wrote:

>>>

>>   Gingko is a "stimulant" herb?  In the same way that caffeine is? I was

>>unaware of this, if this is indeed the case.  I do not drink coffee or cola

>>drinks because I do not tolerate the caffeine.  I do, however, take gingko

>>daily and do not see any similarity at all between the way I feel on gingko

>>and the (awful) way I feel after even one cup of coffee (usually cafe con

>>leche, so not even pure coffee - and only about once or twice a year when

>>family is visiting and they bring us Dominican coffee).  Did I miss an earlier

>>post where this was discussed?  Really would like to know more, since my

>under-

>>standing of gingko is, for one thing, that it improves circulation to the

>>brain and can be as effective as standard pharmaceutical drugs in treating

>seve

>>rely irregular heartbeat.  Coffee would certainly be contra-indicated in a

>>person with irregular heartbeat would it not?  So please explain if you mean

>>that gingko is stimulant in a different way than caffeine is, or just what it

>>is that it does do.

>>

>>Thanks,

>>

>>Lisa

>>

>Ginko biloba is not a stimulant like coffee.  It is a bittersweet,

>astringent herb that dilates bronchial tubes and blood vessels, controls

>allergic responses and stimulates circulation, has antifungal anad

>antibacterial effects.  Used medicinally internally for asthma, allergic

>inflammatory responses, cerebral insufficiency in the elderly, circulatory

>complaints such as Raynaud's disease and varicose veins, and irregular

>heartbeat (leaves);  also for asthma, coughs with thick phlegm and urinary

>incontinence (seeds.)

>

>Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

>Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

>                                  Herbal Indulgence

>                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:04:01 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Re: Ginkgo and drug interactions]

In-Reply-To:  <960910.205716.EDT.LMCONT00@ukcc.uky.edu>



>On Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:45:27 -0700 Paul Iannone said:

>>>I have a friend who started taking Ginko and she was also taking Prozac.

>>>After a week she was a "mess". The Ginko had interfered with the actions

>>>of the Prozac.

>>

>>Taking stimulant herbs at the same time as psychic stimulants can

>>predictably cause problems, yes.

>>

>>Paul

>

>Paul:

>

>   Gingko is a "stimulant" herb?  In the same way that caffeine is?



No, not in the way that chemical is, certainly not as powerfully, but in

the way that many herbs are, certainly in the way that many herbs used as

singly or 'singly combined Panaceas.'



Gingko causes side-effects, usually a sense of nervousness or vertigo, and

I consider that to be a sign of a stimulant effect.



Indeed, Mowry reports that "Studies on the contractile action of Gbx on

isolated rabbit aorta found that this action was probably due to the

ability of substances to stimulate the release of still other

neurotransmitters [**other than dopamine, which is a more known effect of

Gbx**]: the catecholamines, namely ephinephrine and norephinephrine."

[brackets mine]



Mowry also references a range of other studies showing that IN FACT, Gingko

leaf extract is NOT merely a source of vascular dilating flavinoids, but

rather a NEUROACTIVE set of chemicals.



And we must note that the leaf has only been used in this form since the

1970's, so VERY LITTLE IS KNOWN, from a traditional standpoint ESPECIALLY,

about the longterm effects of gingko leaf extract (Gbx) consumption.



>Really would like to know more, since my under-

>standing of gingko is, for one thing, that it improves circulation to the

>brain and can be as effective as standard pharmaceutical drugs in treating

>seve

>rely irregular heartbeat.



As a treatment for irregular heartbeat? How do you think it does that?

Where is the data on that?



>Coffee would certainly be contra-indicated in a

>person with irregular heartbeat would it not?



Yes.



>So please explain if you mean

>that gingko is stimulant in a different way than caffeine is, or just what it

>is that it does do.

>

>Thanks,

>

>Lisa



I rise to oppose single and 'singly combined Panacea,' which are sold far

and wide based on partial understandings. We know as little about gingko

leaf as we do about Prozac.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:11:48 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Lisa Contreras <LMCONT00@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Re: Ginkgo and drug interactions]

In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:04:01 -0700 from <pi2@LOOP.COM>



On Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:04:01 -0700 Paul Iannone said:

>>On Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:45:27 -0700 Paul Iannone said:

>>Paul:

>>

>>   Gingko is a "stimulant" herb?  In the same way that caffeine is?

>

>No, not in the way that chemical is, certainly not as powerfully, but in

>the way that many herbs are, certainly in the way that many herbs used as

>singly or 'singly combined Panaceas.'

>

>Gingko causes side-effects, usually a sense of nervousness or vertigo, and

>I consider that to be a sign of a stimulant effect.

>



   I have not personally experienced these side effects, perhaps because I

take a relatively low dosage (40-60mg once or twice a day) but I don't

argue that side effects such as those you mention certainly could occur at

higher doses. (One of my sources (Las Hierbas que Curan) mentions chronic

vertigo as one of the disorders that gingko is purported to help _alleviate_,

by the way.                                                      _



>Indeed, Mowry reports that "Studies on the contractile action of Gbx on

>isolated rabbit aorta found that this action was probably due to the

>ability of substances to stimulate the release of still other

>neurotransmitters [**other than dopamine, which is a more known effect of

>Gbx**]: the catecholamines, namely ephinephrine and norephinephrine."

>[brackets mine]

>

      That certainly sounds possible but the fact that the researcher uses

  the phrase "was probably due to" still leaves the issue open to debate.

  Interesting though, and I'd like to read the whole report.





>Mowry also references a range of other studies showing that IN FACT, Gingko

>leaf extract is NOT merely a source of vascular dilating flavinoids, but

>rather a NEUROACTIVE set of chemicals.

>

  This definitely sounds like something I need to read.  Where can I?



>And we must note that the leaf has only been used in this form since the

>1970's, so VERY LITTLE IS KNOWN, from a traditional standpoint ESPECIALLY,

>about the longterm effects of gingko leaf extract (Gbx) consumption.

>

  Can't argue with you here.  My sources say, in fact, that the herb did not

gain wide interest until the 80"s.  There does seem to have been a great

number of studies done on it - I have loads of literature about it, most of

which is at school so I can't cite but a few of my sources for you here.

(Most of which are probably on your banned book list anyway :-) ) I have here a

at home Balch and Balch - Prescription for Natural Healing; Simon Y. Mills

"The Essential Book of Herbal Medicine" ; Penelope Ody "The Complete Medicinal

Herbal" and the aforementioned "Hierbas que Curan".  I think Heinerman also

recommended it but had to turn that book in to the library. (What do you think

of Heinerman?  Am considering ordering the book).  Wanted to get one of

Michael Tierra's this past weekend but ran out of money at the bookstore! I

do think he is one author you >or< concur with, right?



>>Really would like to know more, since my under-

>>standing of gingko is, for one thing, that it improves circulation to the

>>brain and can be as effective as standard pharmaceutical drugs in treating

>>seve

>>rely irregular heartbeat.

>

>As a treatment for irregular heartbeat? How do you think it does that?

>Where is the data on that?

>

 I don't have the pharmocological data - just a statement from Ody's book to

that effect.



>>Coffee would certainly be contra-indicated in a

>>person with irregular heartbeat would it not?

>

>Yes.

>

 I had a VERY irregular heartbeat.Echocardiogram showed slight valve damage

from an unknown cause causing mild insufficiency (aortic and tricuspid valves

are  those involved).  Also vertigo.  No nervousness then OR now.  But with

gingko my heartbeat is regular and no more vertigo.  Go figure.



>

       (snip)



>I rise to oppose single and 'singly combined Panacea,' which are sold far

>and wide based on partial understandings. We know as little about gingko

>leaf as we do about Prozac.

>

  I certainly agree with you here too, Paul.  At least in theory.  Because, of

course, a full understanding is logically what one ideally seeks.  But many of

us unfortunately do not have the financial resources to be able to consult

someone (like yourself) who is a healer with the proper full understanding.

So what do we do?  We try to educate ourselves as best we can with the resource

that ARE available to us and hope we don't kill ourselves in the process.

I really don't know what other way to go.  At home there were curanderos and

shamanes.  Here, the occasional curandero that pops up for a week or two in   e

this city and then moves on is as likely to advocate sacrificing chickens to

cure what ails ya as anything else.  Like I said  - what's a person like me

to do?  (At least I don't have hot flashes - must be cuz  I only drink coffee

twice a year! :-))



Lisa

>Paul



PS - Have been meaning to ask you for a while now - would you mind sometime

     listing the books you think are the MOST reliable sources of informationn

     as well as the ones to keep away from?  I know you have mentioned some   r

     here and there in various posts, but it would be extremely useful to have

     one comprehensive list that could be archived for later use.  Many of us

     may be being mislead by someone who sounds very authoritative but is

     is only blowing smoke.



     Thanks again



     L.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:54:04 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         CAROLYN MALONEY <flute@PRODIGY.COM>



oK, DID i get to the list??? Hello toto, is this kansas??

aloha..

flute



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:54:43 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Re: Ginkgo and drug interactions]

In-Reply-To:  <960910.215925.EDT.LMCONT00@ukcc.uky.edu>



>    Thanks for replying!  Do you happen to know if commercial preparations of

>gingko - capsules (won't mention any brands) are prepared with the leaves or

>the seeds?



ALL gingko preparations sold as such use the leaves. The seed is used in

Chinese healing...the Chinese do not use the leaves very often.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:01:31 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Re: Ginkgo and drug interactions]

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960911012540.00adb650@mail.halcyon.com>



>Ginko biloba is not a stimulant like coffee.  It is a bittersweet,

>astringent herb that ...  Used medicinally internally for ... irregular

>heartbeat (leaves)

>

>Marcia Elston



That this herb has components that "stimulate the release of

catecholamines, namely ephinephrine and norephinephrine" puts the herb in

the category of cardiac tonics. The effect on irregular heartbeat, then, is

likely due to this CNS stimulation. Gingko, then, is indeed a

stimulant---perhaps not as stimulating as coffee, but certainly stimulating

enough that serious side-effects could occur if taken in conjunction with

pharmaceutical drugs, including Prozac.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:48:28 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Rob Kruszynski <rgk@NHM.AC.UK>



Yep !



At 10:54 PM 9/10/96 -0500, you wrote:

>oK, DID i get to the list??? Hello toto, is this kansas??

>aloha..

>flute

>

>

From :  Robert  Kruszynski,         Human  Origins  Group,

The  Natural  History  Museum,   Cromwell  Road,  London  SW7  5BD,  U.K.

Tel.  :   00 44 (0) 171 938  8711   or     00  44  (0)  171  938  9270

E-mail  :   rgk@nhm.ac.uk            Fax  :   00  44  (0)  171  938  9277



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 02:08:42 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Joco Cardoso <rodas@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes



On Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:24:06 -0700 Paul Ian none <pi2@LOOP.COM> writes:

>>At 01:52 PM 9/10/96 -0500, you wrote:

>>>

>>>

>>>Now a couple of questions:

>>>

>>>  What about hormonal balances as related to hot flashes?  What if

>your

>>>diet is a good, healthy diet but you suffer from hot flashes _only_

>due to

>>>menopause and the hormonal changes/imbalance that menopause causes?

>I've

>>>noticed that because I, unfortunately, suffer these hot flashes, my

>thirst

>>>is greatly increased.  These flashes result in being extremely hot,

>of

>>>course, clammy skin while the flash is "raging", and an increase in

>>>perspiration.  I attributed my thirst increase to this loss of fluid

>from

>>>the sweating.  What would your advice be on this, Paul?

>>>

>>>Ellen

>>

>>I see no indication that hot flashes cause dehydration.

>

>I have already replied to this the first time around, but let me note

>here

>that Chinese physiology tells us that hot flashes occur because of

>permanent 'dehydration,' in the sense that the Cooling force (Yin) of

>the

>body is depleted, and, like a car low on oil, it doesn't matter how

>much

>water you pour in the radiator, it will just keep boiling out.

>

>Paul

>

Do we have a mechanic in this list? Darrn Chevrolet is acting up again.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:32:50 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Radek K. Novotny" <novotny@DALE.UEK.CAS.CZ>

Subject:      herb for teeth pain



Hello,

        Yesterday during an operation doctors have taken off to my Mother

all teeth. Now after passing of local narcosis effectivity it si very

painfull, doctors recommend her to keep small ice desk between her gums, but

who can press all day his jaw-bone together?

        Do you know any herb tea for this pain goes down? It would be also

antiseptic because of this big wounds.



                                Thanks for any help







                                        Radek

###############################################################################

#                                                                             #

#                                                                             #

#               Radek Novotny                                                 #

#               Institute of Landscape Ecology                                #

#               Na Sadkach 7                                                  #

#               370 05 Ceske Budejovice                                       #

#               Czech Republic                                                #

#               tel: ++42-038-40586                                           #

#               FAX: ++42-038-45719                                           #

#               e-mail novotny@dale.uek.cas.cz                                #

#                                                                             #

###############################################################################



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:33:57 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Radek K. Novotny" <novotny@DALE.UEK.CAS.CZ>

Subject:      koenzym Q



Hello collegues,

        based on discussion about Nutrasweet and the components which it

contains I am losing my confidence  in some natural supplements.

        I have read some handout about koenzym Q 10, that discover Dr Peter

Mitchell received Nobel price for. It's a natural koenzym or some mixture of

other compounds, where synthetical production of it cause that product is

far a way from other natural koenzyms?



                                Thanks a lot for opinions





                                                Radek



###############################################################################

#                                                                             #

#                                                                             #

#               Radek Novotny                                                 #

#               Institute of Landscape Ecology                                #

#               Na Sadkach 7                                                  #

#               370 05 Ceske Budejovice                                       #

#               Czech Republic                                                #

#               tel: ++42-038-40586                                           #

#               FAX: ++42-038-45719                                           #

#               e-mail novotny@dale.uek.cas.cz                                #

#                                                                             #

###############################################################################



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 08:34:53 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         CAROLYN MALONEY <flute@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject:      Internet Message



My mother has very low blood pressure, needless to say her memory and

thought processes are terrible. I found some vitamins.. mostly B,

Zinc and Folic acid.. Its advertised as a Memory recovery vitamin. It

also includes Gingko. What side effects should I watch for in her to

make sure its working ok and not harming her? She is also probably

Manic Depressant. I've been using a diffuser with aromotherapy in her

apartment to releave some of her stress.. However what else would be

helpful?How will the Gingko work with a manic/depressant?



flute aka

Carolyn Maloney

San Antonio, Texas

flute



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:01:54 +0200

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         THE LIND'S <lind@SAMARA.CO.ZW>

Subject:      re ginko and drug interactions



hi

i'm new to the mailing list and e mail and the internet - africa is a

little behind the times. I am a herbalist student.



it is interesting to note that ginko is used as an ingredient in  the so

called 'smart drinks' which have invaded s. africa and 'rave parties'.  i

believe you have these in america?  at this time ecstacy is the main drug

taken by the 'ravers' and the particular use of grinko  leaves in the brand

named 'fusion' together with gotu kola, fo-ti tieng, chinese panex ginseng,

korean panax ginseng, north american ginseng and siberian gingseng claims

the following (with particular reference to ginko)

increase blood flow throughout the body

increase production of adenosine triphosohate (ATP0

improved ability of the brain to metabolise glucose

improved transmission of nerve signals

use as a powerful anti toxidant effective against short term memory loss,

slow thinking and reasning depression, headaches and senile macular

degeneration



i understand it belongs to the class of nootropics



it is noted on the instructions for use that there are no cautions.

i am particularly concerned about the increased  use of drugs in our part

of africa and as a student of herbalism  have been trying to discover the

various attributes of these smart drinks and whether they have ever been

intended for use in a theraputic way or if (as i now believe) they have

been manufactured for use with drugs to increase or decrease the level of

effect - if they are being used to even out the adverse effects one has to

suppose they are therefore useful against a growing problem.  would grinko

have this effect by being an anti toxidant?



i have a list of ingedients used in the south african smart drinks (mainly

chinese herbs) if anyone is interested in following this line.



i am also interested in studing cancer curing drugs and we have here in

africa a number that may be of interest to others.  indegenous medicine and

african herbalism are also subjects that i have an interest in and  a large

and extensive library to call upon - as well as experts in the field.



odette





The Linds

18 Alveston Avenue

Borrowdale - Harare - Zimbabwe

It's a great day in Zimbabwe



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:29:02 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         SUE DOWNEY <DOWNEYS@PLATTE.UNK.EDU>

Subject:      Melatonin and Paxin



This may or may not be related to the discussion about mixing gingko and

Prozac.



I am wondering if taking melatonin and Pactin simultaneously is a case

of two sources working against each other.



I have been taking malatonin and it is very helpful in relieving arthritis.

But I've also been taking Pactin (an antidepressant) for the last two

months, and am wondering if that's a smart thing to do.  My understanding

is that both affect the body's production of selenium.



Thanks for any advice you might be able to offer.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 07:10:41 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes/dehydration/yin, coffee

In-Reply-To:  <199609110144.VAA22884@mail-e2b-service.gnn.com>



>Re Paul's comment on dehydration, etc.

>

>That explanation of the kidneys working to clear heat was very

>sensible to me.

>

>Then there was:

>>Proper nourishment of the Yin aspect, depletion of which is the

>>cause of hot flashes, along with clearance of the Heat using

>>specific herbs, WILL eliminate or at least ameliorate the

>>occurence of hot flashes. And proper CARE of the Yin over the

>>years will eliminate the ADVENT of hot flashes in the first

>>place.



>Other than coffee/caffeine, which I have never ingested except on

>rare occasions, what else might I be doing or should have been

>doing or not doing to nourish the Yin rather than deplete it?



Nourishing Yin is one of the foremost ideas of Chinese healing, but that

doesn't mean that it is necessarily a general behavior that must be

approached systematically. Sufficient rest, warm, nourishing food, gentle

climates, moderate work, mild exercise, spirit recouperation, love and

attention, calm interaction with nature, simple pleasures...all of these

sorts of human behaviors nourish Yin.



>If one has depleted Yin, then is one a like a Yang-constitution

>person, and is one receptive to naturopathic means?



No, your constitution really doesn't change throughout your entire lifetime

in almost all cases. In a person with depleted Yin, Naturopathic means will

generally deplete them further.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:27:41 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "A. Henriks" <autumnh@TRANSPORT.COM>

Subject:      menstrual cramps



Hi all,



Could someone tell me a good herb to take for severe menstrual cramps. I

would also like to know if cramps could be a symptom of imbalances in my body.



TIA



Autumn



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 12:48:14 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         John Stankiewicz <radiant@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject:      Re: menstrual cramps



At 09:27 AM 9/11/96 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi all,

>

>Could someone tell me a good herb to take for severe menstrual cramps. I

>would also like to know if cramps could be a symptom of imbalances in my body.

>

>TIA

>

>Autumn

>



Autumn, from your brief description I can't say much.  But there is a

possiblity that you are a Vata (Ayurvedic dosha or body-type).  Vata wome

tend to have very irregular cycles and they may miss periods, especially if

they exercise too much or their weight drops too low.  Their fow tends to be

scanty, and there may be clots.  These symptoms are due to Vata's dryness.

The blood may be dark in colour and constipaiond and severe cramping may

develop just before the bleeding starts.  Does this fit your description?

If so then you're just like my wife, who is also a Vata.  In her case, Donq

Quai has helped a lot, with a few other herbs, but that's the key herb.



John.



------SIGNATURE-------

Try the Nutritional Symptomatology and Body Type Self-Analysis Form @:

http://www.radiant-living.com or just the

Body Type Analysis with foods, spices, oils, seeds, nuts, grains only: as

above+/doshas.phtml



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:20:47 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         ANNE KNOX <aknox@CA0330.CASO.CA.BLM.GOV>

Subject:      Re: menstrual cramps

In-Reply-To:  <199609111648.MAA13716@mail.inforamp.net>



I have been on Depo Provera for birth control for over 3 years now.  (In

case you didn't know, it's a shot that lasts 3 months).  Now I have

hardly any flow at all, no cramps, no bloating, nothing.  At first I

thought that was great, but now I am wondering about the effects of not

having any flow (I used to have normal periods).  Should I encourage

bleeding by using Dong Quai, or Shatavari, or some other herb, or should

I just count my blessings?



- Anne



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:40:02 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Henry & Dawn Krans <hdkrans@NETOPIA.ON.CA>

Subject:      Re: menstrual cramps



Dear Autumn...According to my well-known sources...menstrual cramps seem to

indicate a lack of pregnancy.

Hope this helps some...*wink*

Dawn





At 09:27 AM 11/09/96 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi all,

>

>Could someone tell me a good herb to take for severe menstrual cramps. I

>would also like to know if cramps could be a symptom of imbalances in my body.

>

>TIA

>

>Autumn

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 19:12:09 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Graham White Hendon Green Party <hendongreen@GN.APC.ORG>

Subject:      Filters



Is it possible to get a filter fitted to the list-server that will

automatically remove all the 'Paul is so horrible, and I'm leaving' messages?



Sure would cut down my phone bill.



Cheers





Graham White

HENDON GREEN PARTY



HENDONGREEN@GN.APC.ORG

gcw3@student.open.ac.uk

gw035@mdx.ac.uk



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:30:45 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Doug Grinder <dgrin@AGT.NET>

Subject:      Re: herb for teeth pain



Radek K. Novotny wrote:

>

> Hello,

>         Yesterday during an operation doctors have taken off to my Mother

> all teeth. Now after passing of local narcosis effectivity it si very

> painfull, doctors recommend her to keep small ice desk between her gums, but

> who can press all day his jaw-bone together?

>         Do you know any herb tea for this pain goes down? It would be also

> antiseptic because of this big wounds.

>

>                                 Thanks for any help

>

>                                         Radek

> ###############################################################################

> #                                                                             #

> #                                                                             #

> #               Radek Novotny                                                 #

> #               Institute of Landscape Ecology                                #

> #               Na Sadkach 7                                                  #

> #               370 05 Ceske Budejovice                                       #

> #               Czech Republic                                                #

> #               tel: ++42-038-40586                                           #

> #               FAX: ++42-038-45719                                           #

> #               e-mail novotny@dale.uek.cas.cz                                #

> #                                                                             #

> ###############################################################################

Try chamomile tea- I use it on my 15 month old when he is teething. I

just soak a tea bag in warm water and then apply it right to the sore

tooth. It seems to help- he stops crying!!! It is an anti-inflammatory

and an antiseptic so it may help. Good luck!

Christine



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 07:45:19 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Melatonin and Paxin

In-Reply-To:  <960911092902.11d70@platte.unk.edu>



>This may or may not be related to the discussion about mixing gingko and

>Prozac.

>

>I am wondering if taking melatonin and Pactin simultaneously is a case

>of two sources working against each other.

>

>I have been taking malatonin and it is very helpful in relieving arthritis.

>But I've also been taking Pactin (an antidepressant) for the last two

>months, and am wondering if that's a smart thing to do.  My understanding

>is that both affect the body's production of selenium.

>

>Thanks for any advice you might be able to offer.



The body does not produce selenium...it is a trace mineral found in your

food supply.



Taking hormones such as melatonin while on pharmaceutical drugs is NOT a

wise practice. But as with Coenzyme Q-10, in the other question, neither of

these substances are herbs, so this is certainly off-topic. You should as

such questions in one of the sci-med lists, where someone with an advanced

knowledge of drug interactions might be able to give you some information.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 07:41:57 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: re ginko and drug interactions

In-Reply-To:  <199609111313.PAA27310@samara.co.zw>



>ecstacy is the main drug

>taken by the 'ravers' and the particular use of grinko  leaves in the brand

>named 'fusion' together with gotu kola, fo-ti tieng,



A misnomer. There is no such Chinese name for an herb. Close as I can tell,

this is a mispelling of a phrase which means 'Buddha's Heaven.'



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:49:51 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Doug Grinder <dgrin@AGT.NET>

Subject:      Re: menstrual cramps



A. Henriks wrote:

>

> Hi all,

>

> Could someone tell me a good herb to take for severe menstrual cramps. I

> would also like to know if cramps could be a symptom of imbalances in my body.

>

> TIA

>

> AutumnI recently saw a receipe for mentrual cramps in a health mag:

                4 ounces freshly grated gingerroot

                  Water to make one quart(whatever that is-I'm Canadian)

                  Honey to taste

simmer the ginger in the water for 10 min.Pour mixture into a

heat-resistant jar with a lid.Let tea steep for 3-4 hours at room temp.

Dilute with cool water and add honey if desired.

There is also a red raspberry tea here,which I hear is good for cramps as

well:

               1 ounce red raspberry leaves

               1 ounce red clover

                water for one quart

                rose petals and lime if desired



Place herbs in a canning jar,add quart of boiling water,close lid,let

steep for 3-4 hrs.at room temp. dilute with cool water, add rose or lime

if desired.

***I have not had a chance to try these teas out yet. If you find that

they do work please let me know.

         Christine



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:28:09 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Kelly Briley <olive@SIRIUS.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Listkeeper and I, was Re: Tabacco Alternatives



I am relatively new to this list and I'll be cancelling my subscription

today. I've only posted once, mainly because I felt so intimidated by other

bullies on the list. This list is a disfunctional environment and since I

like to surround myself with healthy people, the list must go. I would

encourage others of you to do the same.



Kelly



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:43:33 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Donna Ferrara <FERRARA@WCUVAX1.WCU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Listkeeper and I, was Re: Tabacco Alternatives



 This list is a disfunctional environment and since I

> like to surround myself with healthy people, the list must go. I would

> encourage others of you to do the same.

>

> Kelly

Why must all of you announce your departure.  Just leave.  Healthy people don't

wine and complain incessantly.  See ya!

D.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:35:44 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Keith Gauff <keith@CLUSTER.ENGR.SUBR.EDU>

Organization: Engineering Design Center

Subject:      Re: The Listkeeper and I, was Re: Tabacco Alternatives



Kelly Briley wrote:

>

> I am relatively new to this list and I'll be cancelling my subscription

> today. I've only posted once, mainly because I felt so intimidated by other

> bullies on the list. This list is a disfunctional environment and since I

> like to surround myself with healthy people, the list must go. I would

> encourage others of you to do the same.

>

> KellyAre we children or adults? Adults should not whine like babies, and if

you are leaving GOoooooooooo.  Save the rest of us your agony.

Keith



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 14:17:36 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Carlos Becerra Quiroz <esenio@TELNOR.NET>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes



At 01:56 PM 9/10/96 -0700, you wrote:

>At 01:24 PM 9/10/96 -0700, you wrote:

>>>At 01:52 PM 9/10/96 -0500, you wrote:

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>Now a couple of questions:

>>>>

>>>>  What about hormonal balances as related to hot flashes?  What if your

>>>>diet is a good, healthy diet but you suffer from hot flashes _only_ due to

>>>>menopause and the hormonal changes/imbalance that menopause causes?  I've

>>>>noticed that because I, unfortunately, suffer these hot flashes, my thirst

>>>>is greatly increased.  These flashes result in being extremely hot, of

>>>>course, clammy skin while the flash is "raging", and an increase in

>>>>perspiration.  I attributed my thirst increase to this loss of fluid from

>>>>the sweating.  What would your advice be on this, Paul?

>>>>

>>>>Ellen

>>>

>>>I see no indication that hot flashes cause dehydration.

>>

>>I have already replied to this the first time around, but let me note here

>>that Chinese physiology tells us that hot flashes occur because of

>>permanent 'dehydration,' in the sense that the Cooling force (Yin) of the

>>body is depleted, and, like a car low on oil, it doesn't matter how much

>>water you pour in the radiator, it will just keep boiling out.

>>

>>Paul

>>

>Paul, isn't dehydration a condition in which a person's water content has

>fallen to a dangerously low level?  I understand that water accounts for

>about 60% of a man's and 50% of a woman's body weight and that total water

>content must be kept within fairly narrow limits for healthy functioning of

>cells and tissue. (About 99 percent of the molecules in the body are water.)

>Our metabolic functioning is achieved by the activities of the kidneys which

>control the balance between fluid intake and output by regulating the amount

>of water excreeted from the body in the urine.  The minimum daily urinary

>output necessary to remove waste products is about 1 pint, although most

>healthy adults produce about 3.1 pints of urine a day.  Physiologically, the

>amount produced in excess of the minimum is controlled mainly by ADH

>(antidiuretic hormone) which is produced by the posterior portion of the

>pituitary gland and acts on the kidneys to reduce water excrfetion.  Water

>balance is also influenced by excessive substances (sugar or salt) and extra

>water is needed.  Dehydration may occur despite increased production of ADH,

>but is usually compensated for by increased water intake as a response to

>thirst.  Symptons of dehydration are:  severe thirst, dry lips and tongue,

>increase in heart rate and breathing, dizziness, confusion and eventual

>coma.  Skin looks dry and loses its elasticity.  Any urine passed is small

>in quanity and dark colored.  May be lethargy, headaches, cramps and pallor.

>Most women do not experience the symptons of dehydration because of hot

>flashes, especially if they are keeping their water balance within the norm.

>Are you telling Ellen that she should NOT drink more water if she is

dehydrated?

>

>Marcia

>

>Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

>Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

>                                  Herbal Indulgence

>                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/

>

>Hello Marcia:

Why don't stop war. Paul never said that, like you can see.

Shemah.

Carlos.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 14:43:53 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Carlos Becerra Quiroz <esenio@TELNOR.NET>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes/dehydration/yin, coffee



At 04:46 AM 9/11/96 +0200, you wrote:

>Re Paul's comment on dehydration, etc.



>Other than coffee/caffeine, which I have never ingested except on

>rare occasions, what else might I be doing or should have been

>doing or not doing to nourish the Yin rather than deplete it?

>

>If one has depleted Yin, then is one a like a Yang-constitution

>person, and is one receptive to naturopathic means?

>

>!Upps!

Very smart, very, very smart.

Make love, don't war.

Carlos

-----------------------------

esenio@telnor.net



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1904 00:09:47 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Listkeeper and I, was Re: Tabacco Alternatives

In-Reply-To:  <v01520d00ae5cdcf8cb73@[205.134.234.16]>



>I am relatively new to this list and I'll be cancelling my subscription

>today. I've only posted once, mainly because I felt so intimidated by other

>bullies on the list. This list is a disfunctional environment and since I

>like to surround myself with healthy people, the list must go. I would

>encourage others of you to do the same.

>

>Kelly



It's spelled 'dysfunctional.' At least you could spell yet one more

woefully inaccurate diagnosis correctly.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 17:40:11 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Listkeeper and I, was Re: Tabacco Alternatives

In-Reply-To:  <v03007800000063f85a6f@[206.138.116.104]>



> >I am relatively new to this list and I'll be cancelling my subscription

> >today. I've only posted once, mainly because I felt so intimidated by other

> >bullies on the list. This list is a disfunctional environment and since I

> >like to surround myself with healthy people, the list must go. I would

> >encourage others of you to do the same.

> >

> >Kelly

>



I am dumbstruck by the immaturity (not to mention presumptuousness) of

some people.  Why are you encouraging us to leave something we are

obviously not unhappy with?  You don't have any more right to plead with

me to leave this list than I do to beg you to stay.



If I do ever decide to leave this list it will be to escape the

lilly-livered likes of folks like you and not because of being intimidated

by all the 'bullies.'



Personally, I find your posting to be insulting not only to the so-called

'bullies' but to the rest of us as well.  In ridding yourself of these

nasties, you've managed to call each and every one of us 'dysfuctional'

and unhealthy.  You yourself admitted you haven't been a subscriber very

long so how can you possibly know what knowledge lurks in those of us who

don't respond to every single thread and respond only when we've had

enough experience with whatever is being discussed to hop into the fray.



To make a long story short:  Ciao and grow up.







-C



___                                                ___

|_|___                              _______________|_|

|_||_|       The Elements           |_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_|______________________________|_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_|Ah, love. The walks over soft grass, the smiles |_|

|_|over candlelight, the arguments over just about |_|

|_|everything else.  |_||_||_| -Max Headroom |_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_|

      __________________________________________

      |_|cbendix@nunic.nu.edu |_||_||_||_||_||_|

      |_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 22:31:47 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         CAROLYN MALONEY <flute@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject:      melatonin



Tell me more about Melatonin.  My husband had trouble sleeping, so he

bought a large bottle.  It definately works for that.   All I keep

hearing is that it is a hormone.. well so is cordizone.. So what

hormone does it affect?

grin.. Incidently, I managed to get the melatonin mixed up with all

my vitamins when I was in a rush the other morning and had trouble

staying awake at work.. Most relaxed day Ive had in ages.. <laughing>

 quote "you want what? go get it yourself!..snorezzzzzz" so does that

mean its great for stress too?

Carolyn

aka Flute@prodigy.com



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 23:06:37 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "<Jenny Stephens>" <vjstep@EROLS.COM>

Subject:      Re: menstrual cramps



> A. Henriks wrote:

> >

> > Hi all,

> >

> > Could someone tell me a good herb to take for severe menstrual

> >cramps. I would also like to know if cramps could be a symptom of >

> >imbalances in my body.



You may want to try taking Vitex for the two weeks prior to your period.

I have found this really helps with not just cramps but PMS in general.

You don't say if the cramps are prior to or during your period.  Wild Yam

cream containing higher levels of natural progesterone can help too.



Regards,



The J of VJSTEP



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 20:00:18 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hot Flashes



At 02:17 PM 9/11/96 -0700, Carlos Becerra Quiroz <esenio@telnor.net> wrote:

>



>>

>>Hello Marcia:

>Why don't stop war. Paul never said that, like you can see.

>Shemah.

>Carlos.

>

Hello Carlos,



I was asking Paul to clarify his analogy to the radiator and the

car......trying to reach an understanding..  Nothing in that post attacked

Paul.    If we were still warring, you would know it!





Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1904 04:10:25 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: menstrual cramps

In-Reply-To:  <3238F9ED.60DA@erols.com>



>Wild Yam

>cream containing higher levels of natural progesterone can help too.



Jeez, not this again! 'Natural' progesterone is a synthetic chemical that

mimicks the chemical found natively in the body. SUCH THERAPY IS ****NO***

DIFFERENT FROM HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY. If you want to promote drug

therapy, go to sci-med and have a ball. Such **misleadingly worded**

recommendations are utterly unacceptable around here.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:19:01 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         linda/richard <kyote@WOLFENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: melatonin



----------

From:   CAROLYN MALONEY[SMTP:flute@PRODIGY.COM]

Sent:   Wednesday, September 11, 1996 8:31 PM

To:     Multiple recipients of list HERB

Subject:        melatonin



Tell me more about Melatonin.  My husband had trouble sleeping, so he

bought a large bottle.  It definately works for that.   All I keep

hearing is that it is a hormone.. well so is cordizone.. So what

hormone does it affect?

grin.. Incidently, I managed to get the melatonin mixed up with all

my vitamins when I was in a rush the other morning and had trouble

staying awake at work.. Most relaxed day Ive had in ages.. <laughing>

 quote "you want what? go get it yourself!..snorezzzzzz" so does that

mean its great for stress too?

Carolyn

aka Flute@prodigy.com



what is cordizone??

the indiscriminate use of melatonin is very risky. this hormone has not =

been in use long enough to determine if there are any long term =

contraindications!

if you or your husband want to continue using melatonin use low dosages.

try other techniques like relaxation to promote sleep.

richard



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1904 04:30:38 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ginkgo and drug interactions

In-Reply-To:  <960911.235110.EDT.LMCONT00@ukcc.uky.edu>



>>Gingko causes side-effects, usually a sense of nervousness or vertigo, and

>>I consider that to be a sign of a stimulant effect.

>

>   I have not personally experienced these side effects, perhaps because I

>take a relatively low dosage (40-60mg once or twice a day) but I don't

>argue that side effects such as those you mention certainly could occur at

>higher doses. (One of my sources (Las Hierbas que Curan) mentions chronic

>vertigo as one of the disorders that gingko is purported to help _alleviate_,

>by the way.                                                      _



As a stimulant herb, gingko can certainly be found to produce all sorts of

alleviations that may not result not from cure or even treatment, but from

artificial elevation of hormones.



>>Indeed, Mowry reports that "Studies on the contractile action of Gbx on

>>isolated rabbit aorta found that this action was probably due to the

>>ability of substances to stimulate the release of still other

>>neurotransmitters [**other than dopamine, which is a more known effect of

>>Gbx**]: the catecholamines, namely ephinephrine and norephinephrine."

>>[brackets mine]

>>

>      That certainly sounds possible but the fact that the researcher uses

>  the phrase "was probably due to" still leaves the issue open to debate.

>  Interesting though, and I'd like to read the whole report.



Mowry lists EXTENSIVE references. This quote is from his book 'Next

Generation Herbal Medicine,' which I own not because I consider it a good

book, but because if you ignore the hype, it contains references and hints

at what to expect from the herbs that are being used on the basis of such

studies.



>>And we must note that the leaf has only been used in this form since the

>>1970's, so VERY LITTLE IS KNOWN, from a traditional standpoint ESPECIALLY,

>>about the longterm effects of gingko leaf extract (Gbx) consumption.

>>

>  Can't argue with you here.  My sources say, in fact, that the herb did not

>gain wide interest until the 80"s.  There does seem to have been a great

>number of studies done on it - I have loads of literature about it, most of

>which is at school so I can't cite but a few of my sources for you here.

>(Most of which are probably on your banned book list anyway :-) ) I have

>here a

>at home Balch and Balch - Prescription for Natural Healing; Simon Y. Mills

>"The Essential Book of Herbal Medicine" ; Penelope Ody "The Complete Medicinal

>Herbal" and the aforementioned "Hierbas que Curan".  I think Heinerman also

>recommended it but had to turn that book in to the library. (What do you think

>of Heinerman?



Not much, but you must remember that my library reflects my practice...it

is mostly in Chinese and mostly composed of texts that are not commonly

available, or absurdly expensive!



>Am considering ordering the book).  Wanted to get one of

>Michael Tierra's this past weekend but ran out of money at the bookstore! I

>do think he is one author you >or< concur with, right?



Tierra is not always accurate, but they do provide an interesting (and

useful) synthesis of Chinese herb categories and Western herbs.



>>>Really would like to know more, since my under-

>>>standing of gingko is, for one thing, that it improves circulation to the

>>>brain and can be as effective as standard pharmaceutical drugs in treating

>>>seve

>>>rely irregular heartbeat.

>>

>>As a treatment for irregular heartbeat? How do you think it does that?

>>Where is the data on that?

>>

> I don't have the pharmocological data - just a statement from Ody's book to

>that effect.



My suggestion is that this plant is a cardiac tonic, meaning a stimulant

that has an effect on heart muscle. The point is that the claim needs to be

viewed with some concern, not trumpeted as a proof that the herb is a

panacea.



>>>Coffee would certainly be contra-indicated in a

>>>person with irregular heartbeat would it not?

>>

>>Yes.

>>

> I had a VERY irregular heartbeat.Echocardiogram showed slight valve damage

>from an unknown cause causing mild insufficiency (aortic and tricuspid valves

>are  those involved).  Also vertigo.  No nervousness then OR now.  But with

>gingko my heartbeat is regular and no more vertigo.  Go figure.



Well, I would say that there is some worry involved in taking a stimulant

that makes your heart complaints go away without a real diagnosis.



>>I rise to oppose single and 'singly combined Panacea,' which are sold far

>>and wide based on partial understandings. We know as little about gingko

>>leaf as we do about Prozac.

>>

>  I certainly agree with you here too, Paul.  At least in theory.  Because, of

>course, a full understanding is logically what one ideally seeks.  But many of

>us unfortunately do not have the financial resources to be able to consult

>someone (like yourself) who is a healer with the proper full understanding.

>So what do we do?  We try to educate ourselves as best we can with the

>resource

>that ARE available to us and hope we don't kill ourselves in the process.

>I really don't know what other way to go.



That is the specific reason why I am as direct and critical as I can be

here. The predominating mode of herbalism in the US at this time is almost

utterly insufficient, and represents an inferior sort of herbalism, more

like tinkering than healing---an often misapplied therapy lacking a decent

diagnosis at all!



Scary.



>At home there were curanderos and

>shamanes.  Here, the occasional curandero that pops up for a week or two

>in   e

>this city and then moves on is as likely to advocate sacrificing chickens to

>cure what ails ya as anything else.  Like I said  - what's a person like me

>to do?  (At least I don't have hot flashes - must be cuz  I only drink coffee

>twice a year! :-))

>

>Lisa



Continued use of gingko may lead you there anyhow. We really don't know.



>>Paul

>

>PS - Have been meaning to ask you for a while now - would you mind sometime

>     listing the books you think are the MOST reliable sources of informationn

>     as well as the ones to keep away from?  I know you have mentioned

>some   r

>     here and there in various posts, but it would be extremely useful to have

>     one comprehensive list that could be archived for later use.  Many of us

>     may be being mislead by someone who sounds very authoritative but is

>     is only blowing smoke.

>

>     Thanks again

>

>     L.



The FAQ lists a few books in my field that I recommend, as well as others

that are recommended by the others. Certainly, anything by Michael Moore is

worth owning, and Grieve is pretty much a standard. It's time for Henriette

to post that FAQ again,it seems.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 00:22:46 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Howie Brounstein <howieb@TELEPORT.COM>

Subject:      Re: Baptisia ( False Indigo)



At 01:20 PM 9/10/96 -0700, you wrote:

>I've recently added B. tinctoria (also known as wild indigo, indigoweed and

>rattleweed) to my garden.  My research thus far shows that the root is the

>part used and it is an acrid, bitter antiseptic herb that stimulates the

>immune system and is particularly effective against bacterial infections.

>Also lowers fever and has laxative and emetic effects.  Internally good for

>tonsillitis and upper respiratory tract infections, but excess use causes

>nausea and vomiting.  Externally used for boils, ulcers, gum disease, sore

>nipples and vaginitis.  Does anyone have experience using this herb and are

>there other herbs it combines well with?  I don't find strong cautions or

>contraindications.  Anyone know of any?  Thanks.

>



Marcia,



Baptisia is a strong herb that should have cautions, and can make you sick.

Research it before you use it. (another Pea Family Plant .... Legumosae).



Refer to Michael Moore's Homepage .... teaching manuals has lots of info.



He has also done a Beautiful Herb Folio available for downloading with

contraindications and specific indications ...... and pictures galore-





Howie Brounstein

howieb@teleport.com

http://www.teleport.com/~howieb/howie.html



"It's easy to harvest wild plants, the hard part is not harvesting."



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 03:32:35 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Sheila J Halper <SJHALPER@BICS.BWH.HARVARD.EDU>



Hi.  In response to "menstrual cramps seem to indicate a lack of pregnancy" -

this is incorrect.  My "lack of pregnancy" celebrated her lst birthday on 29

Aug.!  Sheila.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 03:37:41 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Sheila J Halper <SJHALPER@BICS.BWH.HARVARD.EDU>



Hi.  Red raspberry leaf tea is excellent for treatment of uterine contractions

- they helped me deliver to term.  Sheila.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:33:04 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         CAROLYN MALONEY <flute@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject:      Herb articles



I have a website http://pages.prodigy.com/flute site called Creative

Minds. One of my topics is Healing Arts.  I would love to have some

general information on Herbs to post there.  I already have Reiki and

Aromatherapy. I have been asked questions about homeapathy and Herbs

and I have no answers..

. If you do general poetry, I am always looking for submissions to

that too.. er ah.. not romantic or disasters.. More philosophy type.

flute@prodigy.com

Carolyn Maloney



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:43:34 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Cindy Lee <CindyLee@MINDSPRING.COM>

Subject:      Re: Shiatsu



Paul wrote:

"Seek out a local acupressurist, or Shiatzuist. You need bodywork."



I use to have Shiatsu treatments once a month. They seemed to help enormously with excess stress.



Can you please share the other benefits of Shiatsu?



TIA

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

><>  <><

     |_

    \__/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Smiles,

Cindy Lee

Zone 8

cindylee@mindspring.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 A rose by any other name would likely be

   "deadly thorn-bearing assault vegetation."

 (Robert Bullock)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:48:04 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Cindy Lee <CindyLee@MINDSPRING.COM>

Subject:      Re: Pregnancy Tea



Mickie wrote:

"Raspberry leaf:  Astringent, Tones the uterus, good as a gargle for"



I've also read that it's not good to take raspberry leaf late in the pregnancy as it can cause early contractions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

><>  <><

     |_

    \__/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Smiles,

Cindy Lee

Zone 8

cindylee@mindspring.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 A rose by any other name would likely be

   "deadly thorn-bearing assault vegetation."

 (Robert Bullock)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:00:30 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Cindy Lee <CindyLee@MINDSPRING.COM>

Subject:      Re: Thin Skinned Net Newbies would rather bitch than switch



Hello all:



> >If you hate the way this list is run so much why do you force yourself

to

> >stay subscribed?   Is this a mental condition?  Is there a herbal

> >treatment for it?

> >

> >--Ed



I agree.



> Because we joined the list to learn.  NOT to be lectured at or

condescended

> to.  To learn.  That is all.  It's sad that the majority does not have a

> voice here and that Paul has ruined for so many of us the chance to

learn.

>

> Ellen



Listen and you will learn. If something offends thee, don't listen. Weed

that which offends thee and read that which withstands the challenges of

truth.



~I agree with Ed here.  All these grand melodramatic exit messages are far

~more irritating than the things Paul posts are.  'Paul has ruined for so



Very true.



~many of us the chance to learn?'  Come now.  Given that Paul is often

~(usually?) abrasive, how does this ruin your chance to learn from others?

~If you aren't learning anything from others, then this is hardly Paul's

~fault.  He is one person with one (albiet rather insistent) opinion.



Blaming someone for your inability to learn is sad.



~If someone is unhappy with the list then just quietly disengage yourself

~from it.  Spare those of us who do not allow Paul to irk us the bland and

~petty 'I just can't take Paul any more.  He's such a meanie!' swan songs.



I fail to see what can be gained by this type of whining. Are you looking

to be given an "ah poor baby". Perhaps you should just grow up and get on

with your life.





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

><>  <><

     |_

    \__/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Smiles,

Cindy Lee

Zone 8

cindylee@mindspring.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 A rose by any other name would likely be

   "deadly thorn-bearing assault vegetation."

 (Robert Bullock)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:26:00 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Randy Froeba <htcw@GNA.COM>

Organization: Herbal Treasures and Cedar Works

Subject:      Re: menstrual cramps



A. Henriks wrote:

>

> Hi all,

>

> severe menstrual cramps.

>

> TIA

>

> Autumn-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Autumn,

There are some EO's that will help. Go to:

http://www.gna.com/customers/htcw/eouse1.htm



A massage blend is listed for peroid pain.



Hope it helps,

Randy and Cathy Froeba



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:28:22 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Tim (TJ) Snider" <Tim_Snider@MINDLINK.BC.CA>

Subject:      Re: Internet Message->Gingko



>My mother has very low blood pressure, needless to say her memory and

>thought processes are terrible. I found some vitamins.. mostly B,

>Zinc and Folic acid.. Its advertised as a Memory recovery vitamin. It

>also includes Gingko. What side effects should I watch for in her to

>make sure its working ok and not harming her?



The Gingko could probably help her memory and though processes.  A better

question is why does she have very low blood pressure? Gingko could

probably be

a part of a treatment strategy but sounds like there are other issues. I'll

leave those

kinds of analysis to my betters such as Paul and Anita.  How is the rest of

her health?



I did a paper on Gingko for one of my herbal courses. You should check your

family history for a tendancy to CVA(Cerebro Vascular Accidents) as there

is some indication that Gingko can apparently help trigger CVA in rare

cases when the condition is already latent. This is usually more prevelant

with high blood pressure though but if you have a family history you should

probably work with your physician to come up with a monitoring strategy.

Otherwise than that I can recommend a good booklet by Christopher Hobbs,

that relentless researcher! The booklet is called "Gingko", ISBN

##0-9618470-3-4 and is from Botanica Press and contains lots of other

references.



>She is also probably Manic Depressant. ...Snip... How will the Gingko work

with a

>manic/depressant?



What leads you to believe she is Manic Depressant? Is her behaviour a

possible side-effect of her other conditions? Does she get out? Does she

have an active life? For mild depression I've used Hypericum/St. Johns Wort

personally on occasion.



There has been some recent discussion about weakness of memory, Gingko and

drug interactions so you may wish to take a look at the archives starting

about 7/18/96.



Best wishes and quick healing!

TJ

---------------------------------------------------

This message was created and sent using the Cyberdog Mail System

---------------------------------------------------



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:41:18 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Gerald I. Sugarman" <GIS01@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: re ginko and drug interactions



If you have a list of herbs for cancer, references on these and also for

gingko, I would be interested.  As you know, there are many gingkosides that

are beginning to be classified.  The most important effect is in

microcirculation (vasodilatation) increasing cerebral and peripheral

circulation.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:40:29 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Tim (TJ) Snider" <Tim_Snider@MINDLINK.BC.CA>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Re: Ginkgo and drug interactions]



>On Tue, 10 Sep 1996 18:25:40 -0700 Marcia Elston said:

>Do you happen to know if commercial preparations of

>gingko - capsules (won't mention any brands) are prepared with the leaves

or

>the seeds?  I would think probably the leaves, since I understand that you

>must be careful of the seeds as toohigh an intake can cause problems.  But

do

>you know if certain preparations are made from the seeds?  I am still at a

>point where I have to buy my herbs already "packaged" for me - not sure

enough

>of technique yet to be into making my own tinctures, decoctions, etc.

Would

>be interested in knowing more about possible seed preparations of gingko.



Most commercial preperations are made from the leaves and as most of them

are  made to a standardized extract of 24% active ingredients it's kind of

tough

to get that volume otherwise... However the leaves themselves can be used

as

a long term tonic.



The nuts are a bit of a hassle as they are inside a rather smelly fruit

which requires a bit of preperation. The fruit itself has different

medicinal properties.



TJ

---------------------------------------------------

This message was created and sent using the Cyberdog Mail System

---------------------------------------------------



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:50:00 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Gerald I. Sugarman" <GIS01@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Re: Ginkgo and drug interactions]



Prosac increases the serotonin levels while the amines (such as phentermines,

caffeines, etc) increase the catecholamines, epin. and norepinephrine and

dopamine levels and NOT CONTRAINDICATED with each other unless MAO inhibitors

are taken or unless there is underlying cardiac arrythemias.  Prosac or the

phenfluramines acts on differenct NT receptor sites (serotonergic).  I should

think that gingko and prosac would NOT be contraindicated.

Jerry



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:53:35 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Gerald I. Sugarman" <GIS01@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Re: Ginkgo and drug interactions]



How long was she on Prosac before the Gingko?  Prosac can cause many side

effects after days or weeks!



Jerry



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:15:45 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Anita Hales <hales1@KTN.NET>

Subject:      Re: menstrual cramps



At 11:06 PM 9/12/96 -0700, <Jenny Stephens> wrote:

>> A. Henriks wrote:

>> >

>> > Hi all,

>> >

>> > Could someone tell me a good herb to take for severe menstrual

>> >cramps. I would also like to know if cramps could be a symptom of >

>> >imbalances in my body.

>

>You may want to try taking Vitex for the two weeks prior to your period.

>I have found this really helps with not just cramps but PMS in general.

>You don't say if the cramps are prior to or during your period.  Wild Yam

>cream containing higher levels of natural progesterone can help too.

>

>Regards,

>

>The J of VJSTEP

>

>

Another old standby for menstrual cramps is Viburnum (Cramp Bark, Highbush

cranberry etc.).  Viburnum is an excellent muscle relaxant and seems to be

especially effective for cramps.  I've used it for years with great success.

I seldom get cramps but when I do, that is what I use.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:15:47 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Anita Hales <hales1@KTN.NET>

Subject:      Interesting herb books



I was in Anchorage a couple of weeks ago and picked up a copy of "The Yellow

Emperor's Classic of Medicine".  It's  very interesting.  Is anyone else

familiar with this book and how "authoratative" is this book?  I always look

for good and different herb books.  Lately I've been looking for those on

oriental herbalism.  So what's your favorites everyone?



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:15:51 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Anita Hales <hales1@KTN.NET>

Subject:      Devil's club



Does anyone have anything that gives the chemical composition of Devil's

Club (Oplopanax horridus).  I would like that information and can't find it

anywhere.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1904 18:29:05 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Re: Ginkgo and drug interactions]

In-Reply-To:  <960912124959_477174363@emout04.mail.aol.com>



>Prosac increases the serotonin levels while the amines (such as phentermines,

>caffeines, etc) increase the catecholamines, epin. and norepinephrine and

>dopamine levels and NOT CONTRAINDICATED with each other unless MAO inhibitors

>are taken or unless there is underlying cardiac arrythemias.  Prosac or the

>phenfluramines acts on differenct NT receptor sites (serotonergic).  I should

>think that gingko and prosac would NOT be contraindicated.

>Jerry



Well, you have a much broader tolerance for homebrewed pharmacology than I.

My point is that an herb that influences the CNS and hormone levels is

improper to take with psychiatric drugs without approval of your doctor.

Since Prozac is miserable therapy, comparatively, based on miserable

diagnostics, I am hardly making the point about the supposed neurochemical

implications. What's more, in any particular case, it is UNKNOWN what

endocrine imbalances might be in part driving the mental illness in a case

being treated by Prozac. So Merck might agree with you...I would not.



What I am pointing out is that gingko is more than people are assuming, and

they should be more wary about using it and about combining it without

concern with pharmaceutical drugs.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:16:18 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Re: Ginkgo and drug interactions]



At 09:40 AM 9/12/96 -0700, you wrote:

>>On Tue, 10 Sep 1996 18:25:40 -0700 Marcia Elston said:

>>Do you happen to know if commercial preparations of

>>gingko



Snip



be interested in knowing more about possible seed preparations of gingko.

>

>Most commercial preperations are made from the leaves and as most of them

>are  made to a standardized extract of 24% active ingredients it's kind of

>tough

>to get that volume otherwise... However the leaves themselves can be used

>as

>a long term tonic.

>

>The nuts are a bit of a hassle as they are inside a rather smelly fruit

>which requires a bit of preperation. The fruit itself has different

>medicinal properties.

>

>TJ

>



That wasn't my post, TJ; I posted some other stuff about Ginko.  I tried to

find the poster of this message, but my messages are not sorted by subject,

so it takes a great deal of searching.  For you techies out there (and

Henriette) - Is there a way I can get the subject line to post.  I have

Eudora and it sorts my other postings from other discussion groups by

subject, but the Herb list doesn't; just lists "Herb list" in the subject

line of all posts.  Hoping there is a simple keystroke to fix this.  Help,

please.  Thanks.



Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:54:25 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         linda/richard <kyote@WOLFENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Devil's club



----------

From:   Anita Hales[SMTP:hales1@KTN.NET]

Sent:   Thursday, September 12, 1996 11:15 AM

To:     Multiple recipients of list HERB

Subject:        Devil's club



Does anyone have anything that gives the chemical composition of Devil's

Club (Oplopanax horridus).  I would like that information and can't find =

it

anywhere.





anita;

devils club is a member of the gensing family(araliaceae)

according to michael moore (medicinal plants of the pacific west)

"the essential oil of the root contains nerolidol, terreyol, dodonene, =

bulnesol, dodecenol, cadenene, and cedrol (among others), as well as =

araliasides and panaxosides"



richard



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:00:09 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Cherie Capps <102617.1353@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject:      Clinical practice



I saw a post recently referring to Amanda Crawfords herbal practice in the

states.  Does anyone know the legality of this and if it is possible to practice

herbal medicine if you are not an N.D.?  Thanks for any info.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 13:31:18 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Interesting herb books



At 10:15 AM 9/12/96 -0800, you wrote:

>I was in Anchorage a couple of weeks ago and picked up a copy of "The Yellow

>Emperor's Classic of Medicine".  It's  very interesting.  Is anyone else

>familiar with this book and how "authoratative" is this book?  I always look

>for good and different herb books.  Lately I've been looking for those on

>oriental herbalism.  So what's your favorites everyone?

>

Hello Anita,



Is this the 1949 translation  by Ilza Veith, or a later translation?  This

is "The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine."

Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 17:43:06 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Devil's club

In-Reply-To:  <01BBA0A1.27A93500@sea-ts4-p12.wolfenet.com>



>devils club is a member of the gensing family(araliaceae) >richard



FWIW,  the ginseng family has 70 genera and 700 species of trees, shrubs,

and herbs. Both ivy (Hedera sp.) and the plant that produces 'rice' paper

(Tetrapanax papyriferum) are from this family. Famous ornamental genera

like Schefflera, Aralia, Fatsia, and Dizygotheca also come from this family.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1904 21:59:04 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Interesting herb books

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960912181547.006756a8@alaska.ktn.net>



>I was in Anchorage a couple of weeks ago and picked up a copy of "The Yellow

>Emperor's Classic of Medicine".  It's  very interesting.  Is anyone else

>familiar with this book and how "authoratative" is this book?  I always look

>for good and different herb books.  Lately I've been looking for those on

>oriental herbalism.  So what's your favorites everyone?



While the Veith book is an entry into this basic document of Chinese

healing, it is unfortunately rife with mistranslations. I will try to

develop a better Chinese healing booklist, but there are indeed few

reliable texts in English available through normal channels.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 1 Jan 1904 22:13:04 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Clinical practice

In-Reply-To:  <960912190008_102617.1353_GHS50-1@CompuServe.COM>



>I saw a post recently referring to Amanda Crawfords herbal practice in the

>states.  Does anyone know the legality of this and if it is possible to

>practice

>herbal medicine if you are not an N.D.?  Thanks for any info.



Each state varies, but no state I am aware of licences 'herbalists' per se.

Bottom line is that you're vulnerable if you use anything like medical

language, and even if you avoid that, you are still vulnerable depending on

the political climate in your region. I do not personally refer to my

practice as 'herbal medicine,' for a range of reasons, but partly because

the use of the word medicine sends the authorities through the roof.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 12 Sep 1996 14:36:12 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Carlos Becerra Quiroz <esenio@TELNOR.NET>

Subject:      Re: menstrual cramps



At 10:20 AM 9/11/96 -0700, you wrote:

>I have been on Depo Provera for birth control for over 3 years now.  (In

>case you didn't know, it's a shot that lasts 3 months).  Now I have

>hardly any flow at all, no cramps, no bloating, nothing.  At first I

>thought that was great, but now I am wondering about the effects of not

>having any flow (I used to have normal periods).  Should I encourage

>bleeding by using Dong Quai, or Shatavari, or some other herb, or should

>I just count my blessings?

>

>- Anne

>

>Hello:

     I think your problem will go out with an infusion of "Ruta Graveolens"

(Ruda)(Rue, in France or Ingland or Raute in Germany).

Carlos

-------------------

thot@hotmail.com            esenio@telnor.net



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 13 Sep 1996 18:21:47 +0200

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

Comments:     RFC822 error: <W> DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was

              retained.

Comments:     RFC822 error: <W> TO field duplicated. Last occurrence was

              retained.

From:         MS MITZI A MICELI <UGFP21A@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject:      Melatonin and Paxil?



Sue,



Do you mean serotonin, not selenium and the drug Paxil?



Paxil is a serotonin reuptake inhibitor.  Melatonin affects serotonin

levels, I can't recall exactly how.  I would conclude that there could

be a contraindication here.  I know that other drugs (natural or not)

which affect serotonin levels are contraindicated  with Paxil.



Note:  The diet combinations Ionamin and Pondimin, and the new drug

Redux (especially) should not be used in conjunction with Paxil.  Just

an added note that I think more people should be aware of.  I know this

is not herb related, just wanted to share this information.



                        Its' not doing the things that we like to do,

Mitzi Miceli            but, liking the things that we have to do,

ugfp21a@prodigy.com     that make life blessed!!!   unk



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 13 Sep 1996 11:05:17 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Brian <Seacaptn@CRIS.COM>



Hello All,



I'm looking for a forum/information on flower essence therapy.

Is this List engaged in this topic?

Do you know of other places I might find this info?



Thank you.



Brian Donovan



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 13 Sep 1996 10:12:40 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>



At 11:05 AM 9/13/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Hello All,

>

>I'm looking for a forum/information on flower essence therapy.

>Is this List engaged in this topic?

>Do you know of other places I might find this info?

>

>Thank you.

>

>Brian Donovan

>

Hello Brian,



I can recommend a very good book, The Enclyclopaedia of Flower Remedies by

Clare G. Harvey and Amanda Cochrane, ISBN 0 7225 3096 X,  published by

Thorsons an Imprint of HarperCollins Publishers.  I am interested in flower

remedies and I am currently treating a cat with hyperthyroid disease quite

successfully with Flower Rescue to reduce his anxiety and nervousness.  I'm

not the expert for what's appropriate on this list, however, I'd be

interested in this topic.





Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 13 Sep 1996 11:18:04 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Howie Brounstein <howieb@TELEPORT.COM>

Subject:      Re: Devil's club



At 05:43 PM 9/12/96 -0700, you wrote:

>>devils club is a member of the gensing family(araliaceae) >richard

>

>FWIW,  the ginseng family has 70 genera and 700 species of trees, shrubs,

>and herbs. Both ivy (Hedera sp.) and the plant that produces 'rice' paper

>(Tetrapanax papyriferum) are from this family. Famous ornamental genera

>like Schefflera, Aralia, Fatsia, and Dizygotheca also come from this family.

>

>Paul





Yes, and this shows another point of herbal interest:



Plant families are determined by flower structure, not chemistry.

Plants in the ginsing family might have ginsing like compounds .... and

maybe not.



But careful of the marketeers who label any medicinal plant in the

Araliaceae in their products as "Our local Ginsing". Maybe the case, maybe not.



Howie Brounstein

howieb@teleport.com

http://www.teleport.com/~howieb/howie.html



"It's easy to harvest wild plants, the hard part is not harvesting."



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 13 Sep 1996 12:10:11 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Devil's club

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.16.19960913181804.220fb980@mail.teleport.com>



>But careful of the marketeers who label any medicinal plant in the

>Araliaceae in their products as "Our local Ginsing". Maybe the case, maybe

>not.

>

>Howie Brounstein



And, if we are going to use this specific example, 'seng' (Cantonese for

'shen') is used to refer to a whole bunch of plants, some of which aren't

in the Araliaceae but all of which have a seng-like effect. Not that I'm

encouraging further 'stigmatization' of individual herbs treated as unique

panaceas.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 13 Sep 1996 12:59:13 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Carlos Becerra Quiroz <esenio@TELNOR.NET>



At 10:12 AM 9/13/96 -0700, you wrote:

>At 11:05 AM 9/13/96 -0400, you wrote:

>>Hello All,

>>

>>I'm looking for a forum/information on flower essence therapy.

>>Is this List engaged in this topic?

>>Do you know of other places I might find this info?

>>

>>Thank you.

>>

>>Brian Donovan

>>

>Hello Brian,

>

>I can recommend a very good book, The Enclyclopaedia of Flower Remedies by

>Clare G. Harvey and Amanda Cochrane, ISBN 0 7225 3096 X,  published by

>Thorsons an Imprint of HarperCollins Publishers.  I am interested in flower

>remedies and I am currently treating a cat with hyperthyroid disease quite

>successfully with Flower Rescue to reduce his anxiety and nervousness.  I'm

>not the expert for what's appropriate on this list, however, I'd be

>interested in this topic.

>

>

>Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

>Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

>                                  Herbal Indulgence

>                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/

>

>Hello everybody:

           If you read "Original Writen" by E. Bach, published by Daniel

Company 1987, or Bush's Flowers, by E. Grecco, Edit. Holly, 1992, I think

you will have a good beginning.

Hope help you a little.

Carlos.

Mexico.

------------------

thot@hotmail.com           esenio@telnor.net



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:15:16 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Jerry and/or Rebecca Henkins <henkins@MAGICNET.NET>

Subject:      Re: Devil's club



I am having to sign off and am having trouble doing so.  I followed the

instructions in the original instructions but the listserv will not accept

them.  How do I sign off?  Please help.

Thanks

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 13 Sep 1996 19:38:33 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Sandy Horner <sjhorner@DISCOVER-NET.NET>

Subject:      Sichuan Oxknee (aka Cynathula Officinalis or Chuan Niu Xi)



Hi all!

I would most appreciate any information I could get on the above listed

herb.  I am

interested in which parts of the plants are used and harvesting info.  I am

also interested to find out more about the medicinal use of this very

attractive plant.  We're about to get a frost here in west central

Wisconsin, and it seems I have waited until the last minute to aquire any

information, so anything would be appreciated.



Thanx,

Sandy

From near to far

From here to there

Funny things are everywhere

                 - Dr. Seuss



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 13 Sep 1996 21:38:26 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Henry & Dawn Krans <hdkrans@NETOPIA.ON.CA>

Subject:      Re: The Listkeeper and I, was Re: Tabacco Alternatives



Obviously, by your rational..Paul is one of the unhealthiest people around.

Better try a different response.



Lots of Love,

Dawn





At 04:43 PM 11/09/96 -0500, you wrote:

> This list is a disfunctional environment and since I

>> like to surround myself with healthy people, the list must go. I would

>> encourage others of you to do the same.

>>

>> Kelly

>Why must all of you announce your departure.  Just leave.  Healthy people don't

>wine and complain incessantly.  See ya!

>D.

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 13 Sep 1996 21:40:29 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Henry & Dawn Krans <hdkrans@NETOPIA.ON.CA>

Subject:      Re: The Listkeeper and I, was Re: Tabacco Alternatives



Paul..I have seen many spelling mistakes in your posts..not to mention the

other errors you make in life. Would you like us to dig out your posts and

quote the spelling errors to you???



Hugs and Kisses,

Dawn





At , you wrote:

>>I am relatively new to this list and I'll be cancelling my subscription

>>today. I've only posted once, mainly because I felt so intimidated by other

>>bullies on the list. This list is a disfunctional environment and since I

>>like to surround myself with healthy people, the list must go. I would

>>encourage others of you to do the same.

>>

>>Kelly

>

>It's spelled 'dysfunctional.' At least you could spell yet one more

>woefully inaccurate diagnosis correctly.

>

>Paul

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 13 Sep 1996 22:04:53 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         CAROLYN MALONEY <flute@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject:      SO what do you actually talk about?



So besides Bashing newcomers.. Is there something I can learn here?

or is this a listserver group that doesn't really talk except among

themselves.  Are you interesting in exploring other healing arts??

like for instance.??

Reiki...

I have had several questions and I have answered them Email

however, it seems that possibly I should have answered them

here.  I have a website http://pages.prodigy.com/flute that

has a section called Healing Arts on it.  There I explain a

bit about it.

   Reiki is basically an Energy Management system. If you

know and understand energy like so many Wicca do.. You will

find it a natural for you. It is not a religion and can not

be used to do harm to anyone. There are 7 symbols and 5

sounds that are currently taught.  In actually there are 22,

however they are not all taught until you contact your own

Reiki Guides. You do need the attunements (as Diane Stein

said)

to make it work correctly for you.

    Reiki I, is a basic self healing. Many people experience

some heavy changes in their life as they open up and melt

away the blocks.  I teach one symbol and sound with Reiki 1.

After Level 1, your hands will get hot with just the intent

to heal.  All you will have to do is place them on yourself

or someone in need and the healing starts.  You may walk

into a room where someone is ill and your hands will

automatically get hot without you even having the intent of

healing. You will probably receive Dream teachings from a

guide but not all do at this point.

    Afterwards is Reiki II that is a mental/emotional

healing, where you receive two special symbols and sounds,

one is used in long distance healing.  You'll find your

intuitive powers increase about double at this point.

THEN I teach Reiki III with three symbols and Reiki Four

with the Reiki Master Plus symbols. This enables you to

become the teacher and pass on the attunements.

On the East Coast I have heard the cost is approximately

$10,000.00 for the entire course to Masters.  However, My

Reiki Master taught me that it is right that as many that

can use Reiki have it available to them. The entire couse

thru Masters with me is $***.**

hugs,

flute



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 13 Sep 1996 19:49:26 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: SO what do you actually talk about?

In-Reply-To:  <199609140204.WAA14436@mime3.prodigy.com>



On Fri, 13 Sep 1996, CAROLYN MALONEY wrote:



> So besides Bashing newcomers.. Is there something I can learn here?

> or is this a listserver group that doesn't really talk except among

> themselves.



Seems to me that the name of this discussion list pretty much sums up what

it is about.  The discussion of medicinal and aromatic plants.  It is hard

to say if you will learn anything here, since we have no way of knowing

how much you already know.  I think there is stuff to be learned, however,

if you are able to see past all the personality clashes that pop up and

focus on the things that are said.  People here are certainly opinionated

as I have noticed (and I am sure you have, as well, assuming you've been

'listening in' for any length of time.).  I, for one, enjoy the variety of

personalities on here and have gleaned quite a bit of knowledge.



> Are you interesting in exploring other healing arts??

> like for instance Reiki?



As they relate to medicinal and aromatic plants? why not?  There are

plenty of people who frame their responses as they relate to their own

area of expertise.  A well-written, intelligent piece of mail is always a

welcome sight in our mailboxes.  At the same time, I wouldn't be surprised

if you find that someone has written a scathing criticism of something you

wrote.  Take it at face value.  Dismiss it, rebutt it, it doesn't really

matter.  Ultimately it's worth what you paid for it, anyhow.









-C



___                                                ___

|_|___                              _______________|_|

|_||_|       The Elements           |_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_|______________________________|_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_|Ah, love. The walks over soft grass, the smiles |_|

|_|over candlelight, the arguments over just about |_|

|_|everything else.  |_||_||_| -Max Headroom |_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_|

      __________________________________________

      |_|cbendix@nunic.nu.edu |_||_||_||_||_||_|

      |_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 13 Sep 1996 23:16:01 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         CAROLYN MALONEY <flute@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject:      Internet Message



Oh.. good, I was afraid all you guys talked about was what Paul did

or didn't do..

Yes, I'm very new to the listserver.. But I've been playing on the

internet for a few years now..

So I know the score.. giggling.. and Paul seems to have the score

card market cornered..

SO tell me about flowers and aromatherapy??

flute



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 13 Sep 1996 23:40:03 +0000

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         michael bellah <mbellah@GR.CNS.NET>

Organization: bayouMedia

Subject:      Re: SO what  Re:Redux



and carolyn issueth forth:



>So besides Bashing newcomers.. Is there something I can learn

here?

--buncha snipping here, of both posts, for brevity-----



>Dismiss it, rebutt it, it

doesn't really

matter.  Ultimately it's worth what you paid for it, anyhow.



-C



>and mike chimes in, Bravo! Bravissimo!, wonderfully put -C! Now there's a bottom line if I ever heard one. or is that the next to the bottom, or...anyway...



On Paul's recommendation, I've been doing ginseng (Panax) extract for

the last month or so. two cups a day prior to breakfast and lunch. 6

good sized tablets of Alfalfa a day at feeding times, butressed with 2

caps of cayenne/garlic, garnished with a dose of ginko twice a day.

Regular meals, (which is the first time in 30 years I've managed that),

really meditated for the first time in 15 years (bidness don't ya know),

practicing my first lessons in Taijiquan, working the abdominals with a

pretty cool machine to strengthen (by association I guess) what glutes I

have on my right hip. Atrophied some 43 years ago in a bout with

infantile paralysis (polio) Started to understand the complexity and

need for dedicated study in the herbal lifestyle. Become quite rightly

critical about competing claims and off-hand verdicts on health and

herbal approaches to various states of wellness. Since I'm obviously new

to this entire range of conversation, there must be something going on

here. I've witnessed an amazing exchange of information that (all

adjectives, adverbs, and hyperbole aside) is contributing in a most

postive fashion to a very dramatic improvement in the quality of my

life. I'm sure this is blah, blah, blah, to a good number of you out

there; but, I really appreciate this list and the amount of work/thought

that goes into the posts I've read here.



Enough of the blah, blah, blah.



All flames and condescension expected

at mbellah@gr.cns.net



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 00:34:27 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: SO what do you actually talk about?

In-Reply-To:  <199609140204.WAA14436@mime3.prodigy.com>



>So besides Bashing newcomers.. Is there something I can learn here?

>or is this a listserver group that doesn't really talk except among

>themselves.  Are you interesting in exploring other healing arts??

>like for instance.??

>Reiki...



Reiki has NOTHING to do with herbs or herbal healing, so no WE DON'T WANT

TO TALK ABOUT REIKI.



>hugs,

>flute



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 00:39:52 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Internet Message

In-Reply-To:  <199609140316.XAA18774@mime3.prodigy.com>



>Oh.. good, I was afraid all you guys talked about was what Paul did

>or didn't do..

>Yes, I'm very new to the listserver.. But I've been playing on the

>internet for a few years now..

>So I know the score.. giggling.. and Paul seems to have the score

>card market cornered..

>SO tell me about flowers and aromatherapy??

>flute



Aromatherapy is off-topic as well. The aromatic plants in the title of the

list refers to aromatics as a category of chemicals. It does not refer to

aromatherapy, and there are better places to discuss that.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 00:54:00 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Sichuan Oxknee (aka Cyathula Officinalis or Chuan Niu Xi)

In-Reply-To:  <9609131936.aa25225@discover.discover-net.net>



>Hi all!

>I would most appreciate any information I could get on the above listed

>herb.  I am

>interested in which parts of the plants are used and harvesting info.



Chuan Niuxi is a type of Niuxi, not the most common one. Both genera are

from the Amaranthaceae, so they are basically hardy weeds. The root is the

primary part used...Niuxi is covered in Herbal Emissaries...it is harvested

in the fall after the leaves have withered. After the usual removal of

rootlets, the roots are bundled and nearly dried in the sun. They are then

fumigated with sulphur fumes twice (probably to prevent fungus). The crown

of the root is cut off, and drying is completed. Usually one year or two

year old plants are harvested.



>I am

>also interested to find out more about the medicinal use of this very

>attractive plant.  We're about to get a frost here in west central

>Wisconsin, and it seems I have waited until the last minute to aquire any

>information, so anything would be appreciated.

>

>Thanx,

>Sandy



I would advise you to get a copy of HE. It has excellent coverage on these

issues.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 13:59:01 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Anna <jhf@FLEX.NET>

Subject:      new to list



Hi! my name is Anna. I am new to the list as of yesterday. I am looking

forward to gaining some knowledge of medicinal herbs. I in Austin, Tx. most

of the time when I am not taking one of my breaks from life. I have become

consumed with herbs and their healing qualities.



Does anyone know of a more of a general gardening listserv?



Anna



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 15:19:38 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         CAROLYN MALONEY <flute@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject:      Internet Message



oh.. Ok.. we won't talk about Reiki.. even though its a really good

subject.

In using Reiki as a healing method I sometimes use aromatic scents on

my hands.

It helps to relax a person.. Which brings me to.. not Reiki..

grinning

(and yes, Paul I like to grin, it seems to irratate people like you.

)



What is a good relax type Herb or Geroge or was that Paul..

flute



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 13:08:17 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "MICHAEL P. ACORD" <MPACORD@GNN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Interesting herb books



Anita Hales wrote:

>

> I was in Anchorage a couple of weeks ago and picked up a copy of "The Yellow

> Emperor's Classic of Medicine".  It's  very interesting.  Is anyone else

> familiar with this book and how "authoratative" is this book?  I always look

> for good and different herb books.  Lately I've been looking for those on

> oriental herbalism.  So what's your favorites everyone?Anita Hales wrote:

>

> I was in Anchorage a couple of weeks ago and picked up a copy of "The Yellow

> Emperor's Classic of Medicine".  It's  very interesting.  Is anyone else

> familiar with this book and how "authoratative" is this book?  I always look

> for good and different herb books.  Lately I've been looking for those on

> oriental herbalism.  So what's your favorites everyone?The Yellow Emperors Classic is one of the classic texts of

CTraditional Chinese medicine (TCM).  It's value depends on the

interpretation given to it by those translating it.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 13:37:04 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: new to list



At 01:59 PM 9/14/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Hi! my name is Anna. I am new to the list as of yesterday. I am looking

>forward to gaining some knowledge of medicinal herbs. I in Austin, Tx. most

>of the time when I am not taking one of my breaks from life. I have become

>consumed with herbs and their healing qualities.

>

>Does anyone know of a more of a general gardening listserv?

>

>Anna

>

Hi Anna,



I know of an organic gardening list.  I get the digest version.  Can be

reached at: Organic Gardening Discussion List <OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU>

Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 19:42:21 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         CAROLYN MALONEY <flute@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject:      Re: new to list



Im in San Antonio..



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 20:06:35 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         CAROLYN MALONEY <flute@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject:      Re: Interesting herb books



I lived in Hawaii for years and the Oriental Medicine was extremely

available.. I wished I had learned much about it then..TCM also

includes Qi_Qong which is as fasinating as Reiki.

flute



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 17:25:56 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Interesting herb books

In-Reply-To:  <199609150006.UAA10496@mime3.prodigy.com>



>I lived in Hawaii for years and the Oriental Medicine was extremely

>available.. I wished I had learned much about it then..TCM also

>includes Qi_Qong which is as fasinating as Reiki.

>flute



While TCM may now 'include' Qigong, in fact these are different traditions.

There is almost no mention of either martial arts or Qigong in the Chinese

healing classics, and these practices were NOTintegrated into the practice

during its classical existence.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 17:56:54 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: menstrual cramps

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.91.960911101707.15290A-100000@ca0330.caso.ca.blm.gov>



>I have been on Depo Provera for birth control for over 3 years now.  (In

>case you didn't know, it's a shot that lasts 3 months).  Now I have

>hardly any flow at all, no cramps, no bloating, nothing.  At first I

>thought that was great, but now I am wondering about the effects of not

>having any flow (I used to have normal periods).  Should I encourage

>bleeding by using Dong Quai, or Shatavari, or some other herb, or should

>I just count my blessings?

>

>- Anne



And how old are you?



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 17:34:15 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Shiatsu

In-Reply-To:  <01BBA0A2.07DA1720@user-207-69-140-172.dialup.mindspring.com>



>Paul wrote:

>"Seek out a local acupressurist, or Shiatzuist. You need bodywork."

>

>I use to have Shiatsu treatments once a month. They seemed to help

>enormously with excess stress.

>

>Can you please share the other benefits of Shiatsu?

>

>TIA



Pressure on the 'holes' (Xue) anatomically available for accessing the

Channels helps move the Qi (pronounced Chee) and (so-called) Blood in those

Channels. This has health benefits, but the primary purpose is dredging out

Xie Qi, or negative Qi, which accumulates there for a variety of reasons.

The Xie Qi (pronounced Shee-eh) is then delivered to the Bladder, Large

Intestine, and Lungs for removal from the body. Some of the Xie Qi simply

disappears, because it is actually a kind of 'historical' Qi...memories

stuck in the Channels. The distinction then is between Substantial Qi and

Insubstantial Qi. Acupressure moves both, and the Zheng Qi (pronounced

Jay-ng), the Qi proper to the body, can then thrive as it should.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 21:16:28 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         De Dollar <DONDEE999@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Please Unsubscribe me



I need to be taken off because I can't handle all the messages



Thanks for taking care of this.



Sincerely,

De Dollar



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 21:19:36 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         De Dollar <DONDEE999@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bilberry



Me Too!



De Dollar

1216 Walnut St.

Cary, NC 27511



Thanks,

De aka Blind as a bat



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 21:31:02 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         CAROLYN MALONEY <flute@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject:      Re: Shiatsu



Shiatsu is a massage type of treatment isn't it???

flute



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 21:30:05 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         CAROLYN MALONEY <flute@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject:      Re: Interesting herb books



Except that Qi and Chi, ki  (all pronounced the same incidently) and

Prana are basically the same. (The Life force or energy) And the

medicine that you so skillfully described earlier is a form of the

same type of healing forces. QiGong is an ancient philosophical

system of harmonious integration of the human body.  Another name for

QiGong is Chi Kung, Qi Gong and Chi Gung amount others.. and Reiki is

closely related only from a Japanese orientation. QiGong is called

the mother of Traditional Chinese Medicine and thousands of years old,

 remaining in secrecy and available only to the very elite until the

early 1980s. (oh some of this is quoted from Effie Poy Yew Chow, PH.D.

 R.N. C.A. (Certified Acunpuncturist of San Francisco and the co-

author of the book "Miracle Healing from China".

Dr, Pang Heming is a doctor of both Western medicine and TMC and a

director of the Zhi Neng QiGong Hospital Shijiazhuang, Hebei province

says they have hundreds of cancer patients that are being treated

with Qigong successfully..

flute,

Reiki Master



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 14 Sep 1996 20:15:56 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Doug Grinder <dgrin@AGT.NET>

Subject:      Dong Quai



I'm thinking of taking Dong Quai for an ovarian cyst. I get sever

menstrual like cramps about 2 wks. before my period. Does anyone know if

this will help and is it safe to use while breastfeeing?

Christine



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:37:22 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Keith Gauff <keith@CLUSTER.ENGR.SUBR.EDU>

Organization: Engineering Design Center

Subject:      Re: new to list



CAROLYN MALONEY wrote:

>

> Im in San AntonioHi Carol, I'm Keith from down below.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 08:37:35 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Interesting herb books

In-Reply-To:  <199609150130.VAA10548@mime3.prodigy.com>



>Except that Qi and Chi, ki  (all pronounced the same incidently) and

>Prana are basically the same. (The Life force or energy)



Yeah, well you come late to the party. This statement is NOT TRUE. Qi and

Ki are NOT pronounced the same. And Qi and Prana are different things. And

Qi is NOT energy, it is influence (a closer translation).



>And the

>medicine that you so skillfully described earlier is a form of the

>same type of healing forces. QiGong is an ancient philosophical

>system of harmonious integration of the human body.  Another name for

>QiGong is Chi Kung, Qi Gong and Chi Gung amount others..



Those aren't other names...those are other spellings.



>and Reiki is

>closely related only from a Japanese orientation. QiGong is called

>the mother of Traditional Chinese Medicine and thousands of years old,

> remaining in secrecy and available only to the very elite until the

>early 1980s.



That is flat out nonsense.



>(oh some of this is quoted from Effie Poy Yew Chow, PH.D.

> R.N. C.A. (Certified Acunpuncturist of San Francisco and the co-

>author of the book "Miracle Healing from China".



Her hype notwithstanding, there is ZERO support for this idea historically.



>Dr, Pang Heming is a doctor of both Western medicine and TMC and a

>director of the Zhi Neng QiGong Hospital Shijiazhuang, Hebei province

>says they have hundreds of cancer patients that are being treated

>with Qigong successfully..

>flute,

>Reiki Master



That may well be true, but it is a lie to say that Chinese healing as a

tradition involved Qigong in classical times.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 08:41:43 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Dong Quai

In-Reply-To:  <323B74EC.77CB@agt.net>



>I'm thinking of taking Dong Quai for an ovarian cyst. I get sever

>menstrual like cramps about 2 wks. before my period. Does anyone know if

>this will help and is it safe to use while breastfeeing?

>Christine



2 weeks? Midterm, ovulatory cramping *is often* associated with Heat, and

Danggui is a Warm herb. While it is safe for breastfeeding, you really need

a diagnosis before you can properly use Danggui for this particular problem.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 13:13:35 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Bryan W Harp <bharp@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Looking for a source of these roots & herbs



I found a Kidney Cleanse recipe, and it has some ingredients that I am

not familiar with.

Where is there a source for these ingredients:

        Uva Ursi capsules

        dried hydrangea root

        gravel root

        marshmallow root

        glycerin

****************************************



The recipe follows:



---Kidney Cleanse---

1/4 cup dried hydrangea root

1/4 cup gravel root

1/4 cup marshmallow root

2 tablespoons black cherry concentrate

4 bunches fresh parsley



        In a non-metal container ( with non-metal lid ), combine

hydrangea, gravel, and marshmallow roots with 10 cups of cold water.

Cover and let sit for four hours or overnight. Add black cherry

concentrate and heat to boiling. Reduce heat and let simmer for 20

minutes. Remove from heat and drink 1/4 cup as soon as the mixture is

cool. Pour the remainder through a bamboo strainer and transfer liquid

into one sterile glass pint jar and several freezable containers.

Refrigerate glass jar.

        Rinse parsley and place in a non-metal container. Add one quart

of cold water and boil for three minutes. Remove from heat and drink 1/4

cup as soon as the mixture is cool. Pour the remainder through a bamboo

strainer and transfer liquid into one sterile glass pint jar and one

freezable container. Refrigerate glass jar.

        Each morning pour together 3/4 cup root mixture and 1/2 cup

parsley, filling a large mug. Add 20 drops goldenrod tincture and one

tablespoon glycerin.

Drink mixture in divided doses throughout the day. Keep cold. If your

stomach is sensitive, start on half the recommended dose. Save the roots

from the first boiling and store in freezer. When supply runs low, boil

the roots a second time, adding only six cups of water and simmer for ten

minutes.

        Along with the root and parsley mixture, take one ginger capsule

before each meal. Also take one Uva Ursi capsule with breakfast and two

capsules with supper. Take one 250 mg. vitamin B6 and one 300 mg.

magnesium oxide once a day.



***************************************************************



------->MADE IN AMERICA, with Cherokee & European import parts<-------

Bryan Wade Harp       E-mail: bharp@juno.com



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 13:17:52 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Doug Grinder <dgrin@AGT.NET>

Subject:      Re: Dong Quai



Paul Iannone wrote:

>

> >I'm thinking of taking Dong Quai for an ovarian cyst. I get sever

> >menstrual like cramps about 2 wks. before my period. Does anyone know if

> >this will help and is it safe to use while breastfeeing?

> >Christine

>

> 2 weeks? Midterm, ovulatory cramping *is often* associated with Heat, and

> Danggui is a Warm herb. While it is safe for breastfeeding, you really need

> a diagnosis before you can properly use Danggui for this particular problem.

>

> PaulPaul- I don't know what you mean by a "diagnosis". My doctor told me that

I have an ovarian cyst and that there is not much that I can do about it

and that it isn't really anything to worry about, I would just like to

lessen the pain. What else do I need to know??



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 16:12:39 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Maureen Rogers <HERBWORLD@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Looking for a source of these roots & herbs



You can get all the ingredients in your formula from Frontier Coop Herbs at

800-669-3275 or from someone buying from them.  Try Rosemary House at

717-697-5111



Maureen

http://www.herbnet.com/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 17:04:08 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Bryan W Harp <bharp@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Looking for a source of these roots & herbs



        Thank you very much for your message





------->MADE IN AMERICA, with Cherokee & European import parts<-------

Bryan Wade Harp       E-mail: bharp@juno.com



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 14:40:03 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Fingernail Loss/Chernobyl Connection



I, and others from the Aromatherapy Mailing List, have been having a dialog

with an aromatherapist in Wroclaw (thoroughly innundated by Chernobyl vapors

ten years ago) who has a client who lost all her fingernails two years ago.

She was diagnosed with hypertension and placed on medication (Rudotel-a mild

version of Relanium) at about the same time.  Most of our discussion took

place before we were all aware of the Chernobyl connection, and we now are

aware that there are at least 18 other cases of losing fingernails in Wroclaw.



I, and probably the others, have concluded that there probably is a

connection between the effects of radiation and this fingernail loss.  None

of us believe there is an easy aromatherapy fix.  Although, we know little

of the effects of strontium 90, we do know that it does emit radiation in

the form of beta particles for a comparatively long time (the half life of

this radioisotope being about 28 years.)  Some of the diseases that we know

can be caused are leukemia and bone tumors.  It appears to attack  the

immune system and bone marrow.



This discussion and the information I have gleaned about the terrible

affects of radiation lends itself to finding out more.  Obviously, this

region is still suffering from the results of that disaster, and probably

will for some time to come.



A description of the process of nail loss.  "A small yellowish stain appears

at the base of the nail as a result of pus gathering there (but ther is no

pain, no swelling, no other signs of infection.)  'the pus dries up and

that's when the nail starts rising out of the nail bed and then falls off.

This process repeats every time her nails try to grow back."



Are any of you familiar with this kind of fingernail loss in another

setting?  What are symptoms, treatment and results?  Are any of you out

there treating the effects of radiation?  What are the symptoms, treatment

and results?  I would appreciate even theoretical advice at this point.

Would  a regimented detoxification treatment be recommended?



Thanks in advance for your thoughtfulness.







Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 15:55:55 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Dong Quai

In-Reply-To:  <323C6470.5ABD@agt.net>



>Paul Iannone wrote:

>>

>> >I'm thinking of taking Dong Quai for an ovarian cyst. I get sever

>> >menstrual like cramps about 2 wks. before my period. Does anyone know if

>> >this will help and is it safe to use while breastfeeing?

>> >Christine

>>

>> 2 weeks? Midterm, ovulatory cramping *is often* associated with Heat, and

>> Danggui is a Warm herb. While it is safe for breastfeeding, you really need

>> a diagnosis before you can properly use Danggui for this particular problem.

>>

>> PaulPaul- I don't know what you mean by a "diagnosis". My doctor told me

>>that

>I have an ovarian cyst and that there is not much that I can do about it

>and that it isn't really anything to worry about, I would just like to

>lessen the pain. What else do I need to know??



That doesn't qualify as a diagnosis from an herbal healing standpoint. What

is the **cause** of the cyst? What is the pattern that produced this

problem?



Just 'like to reduce the pain,' take Advil. If you want to take herbs, you

should have a **holistic** diagnosis first.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 15:59:45 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Fingernail Loss/Chernobyl Connection

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960915214003.00acb66c@mail.halcyon.com>



>I, and others from the Aromatherapy Mailing List, have been having a dialog

>with an aromatherapist in Wroclaw (thoroughly innundated by Chernobyl vapors

>ten years ago) who has a client who lost all her fingernails two years ago.

>She was diagnosed with hypertension and placed on medication (Rudotel-a mild

>version of Relanium) at about the same time.  Most of our discussion took

>place before we were all aware of the Chernobyl connection, and we now are

>aware that there are at least 18 other cases of losing fingernails in Wroclaw.



Did the other cases have diagnosable illnesses? Hypertension *can* cause

loss of nails. And there have certainly been plenty of causes for illness

in Russia over the last ten years.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 16:47:57 -0600

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Tommy Clonts <TCLONTS@EAC.CC.AZ.US>

Subject:      Zula Zula



Hi,

        My friends and i recently went to a place that sold oils and

incense, we got some called zula zula, and we liked it.  what is it? Anyone

have any idea? I really liked it.



Thanks,

Tommy



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 18:21:18 -0600

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         janette clare kennedy <jclare@WHITEMTNS.COM>

Subject:      Essiac



Looking for Grandma Mettasongs receipe for Essiac. Couldn't find it in my

files.  Appeared here I think in spring. Thanks



Janette



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 20:32:33 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         CAROLYN MALONEY <flute@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject:      Nails



Its a type of yeast infection under the nail.   I have a client that

has used Tea Tree oil.. in and around the nail.. The area that is

discolored seems to be getting smaller and the nail is beginning to

flatten out again. Wonderful stuff Tea Tree even if it knock you out

with the smell..

grin

flute



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 20:27:36 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         CAROLYN MALONEY <flute@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject:      Re: Interesting herb books



giggling.. wrong.. poopsie.. oh.. I mean Dear Paul,  Your statement

is not true..

I knew when you didn't know what Reiki was and hat you didn't

understand all these other

forms of the same type of healing.. Grinning..and now you've given me

proof positive..

The life force or energy of the body.. lets do it scientific.. ok

Once upon a time there was an atom.. and now.. its understood there

are three parts to the atom

and within this atom is the perputual motion or energy. Everything in

the Universe is energy just different vibrations and densities.. via

Albert Einstein. E=mc squared.  Nothing is ever destroyed just

changes form.

Then color, refracted light and sounds are another vibration.   If

you use these sounds and vibrations and influence them, you can

balance and change them.

With an Electronic/Magnetic field you can stimulate the seratonin and

increase healing from within the person. Qi, Ki, Chi is this energy

or electronic/magnetic force field.. and IN Chinese Medicine the

doctor can do this. Reiki practioners can do the same...

And guess what.. all the martial arts teach the same thing, only they

use it for protection/combat.

Now Prana is the same, only the Eastern philosophy describe the life

force as breath.. and Prana is the breath.. or the life force.  Is

this to difficult?.. if so I can try to explain it like "Bu sa

bumnym" Korean Martial arts Instructor- explains it to his after

school crowd.. lesse I think he uses the Ninja turtle and Ninja Bunny

routine.. laughing..

Flute



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 20:38:52 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Fingernail Loss/Chernobyl Connection



At 03:59 PM 9/15/96 -0700, you wrote:

>>I, and others from the Aromatherapy Mailing List, have been having a dialog

>>with an aromatherapist in Wroclaw (thoroughly innundated by Chernobyl vapors

>>ten years ago) who has a client who lost all her fingernails two years ago.

>>She was diagnosed with hypertension and placed on medication (Rudotel-a mild

>>version of Relanium) at about the same time.  Most of our discussion took

>>place before we were all aware of the Chernobyl connection, and we now are

>>aware that there are at least 18 other cases of losing fingernails in Wroclaw.

>

>Did the other cases have diagnosable illnesses? Hypertension *can* cause

>loss of nails. And there have certainly been plenty of causes for illness

>in Russia over the last ten years.

>

>Paul

>

We've asked her to see if she can find out the similarities between the 18

cases in terms of diagnoses, lifestyle,  etc.    Does loss of nails from

Hypertension occur like it was described here?  And is it likely that the

nail continues to fall off with each new nail with Hypertension nail loss?

How common is this?  I don't seem to find references in my research material

that connect the two.  If you think this is related to her Hypertension,

what would you prescribe?  Thanks.



Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 21:06:22 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Carlos Becerra Quiroz <esenio@TELNOR.NET>

Subject:      Re: Interesting herb books



At 08:27 PM 9/15/96 -0500, you wrote:

>giggling.. wrong.. poopsie.. oh.. I mean Dear Paul,  Your statement

>is not true..

>I knew when you didn't know what Reiki was and hat you didn't

>understand all these other

>forms of the same type of healing.. Grinning..and now you've given me

>proof positive..

>The life force or energy of the body.. lets do it scientific.. ok

>Once upon a time there was an atom.. and now.. its understood there

>are three parts to the atom

>and within this atom is the perputual motion or energy. Everything in

>the Universe is energy just different vibrations and densities.. via

>Albert Einstein. E=mc squared.  Nothing is ever destroyed just

>changes form.

>Then color, refracted light and sounds are another vibration.   If

>you use these sounds and vibrations and influence them, you can

>balance and change them.

>With an Electronic/Magnetic field you can stimulate the seratonin and

>increase healing from within the person. Qi, Ki, Chi is this energy

>or electronic/magnetic force field.. and IN Chinese Medicine the

>doctor can do this. Reiki practioners can do the same...

>And guess what.. all the martial arts teach the same thing, only they

>use it for protection/combat.

>Now Prana is the same, only the Eastern philosophy describe the life

>force as breath.. and Prana is the breath.. or the life force.  Is

>this to difficult?.. if so I can try to explain it like "Bu sa

>bumnym" Korean Martial arts Instructor- explains it to his after

>school crowd.. lesse I think he uses the Ninja turtle and Ninja Bunny

>routine.. laughing..

>Flute

>

>Hello:

I am sorry. Realy. But you are wrong.

In the high nivel the energy is created. After Albert and E=mc2, are there a

lot of new concepts. Atom=1000 diferent things, like leptons, for instans.

An, please, Prana IS NOT, in any form, the same like Ki.

In other post, in other time or place, because this is an Herb forum I

explain with pleasure this.

Shema.

Carlos.

------------------

esenio@telnor.net              thot@hotmail.com



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 22:12:57 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Anita Hales <hales1@KTN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Devil's club



At 11:54 AM 9/12/96 -0700, linda/richard wrote:

>----------

>From:   Anita Hales[SMTP:hales1@KTN.NET]

>Sent:   Thursday, September 12, 1996 11:15 AM

>To:     Multiple recipients of list HERB

>Subject:        Devil's club

>

>Does anyone have anything that gives the chemical composition of Devil's

>Club (Oplopanax horridus).  I would like that information and can't find it

>anywhere.

>

>

>anita;

>devils club is a member of the gensing family(araliaceae)

>according to michael moore (medicinal plants of the pacific west)

>"the essential oil of the root contains nerolidol, terreyol, dodonene,

bulnesol, dodecenol, cadenene, and cedrol (among others), as well as

araliasides and panaxosides"

>

>richard

>

>

Richard,  can you tell me anything about these ingredients.  I am familiar

with araliasides and panaxosides but not the rest.  Thanx



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 22:13:00 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Anita Hales <hales1@KTN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Interesting herb books



At 01:31 PM 9/12/96 -0700, Marcia Elston wrote:

>At 10:15 AM 9/12/96 -0800, you wrote:

>>I was in Anchorage a couple of weeks ago and picked up a copy of "The Yellow

>>Emperor's Classic of Medicine".  It's  very interesting.  Is anyone else

>>familiar with this book and how "authoratative" is this book?  I always look

>>for good and different herb books.  Lately I've been looking for those on

>>oriental herbalism.  So what's your favorites everyone?

>>

>Hello Anita,

>

>Is this the 1949 translation  by Ilza Veith, or a later translation?  This

>is "The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine."

>Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

>Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

>                                  Herbal Indulgence

>                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/

>

>

It says it's a "New translation of the Neijin Suwen with commentary" by

Maoshing Ni, Ph.D.  Is this significant?  In this translation there seems to

be an attempt to make it understandable to Westerners.  I'm sure some is

lost this way but it is  a place to start.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 23:24:11 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Qi vs. Prana, was Re: Interesting herb books

In-Reply-To:  <199609160406.VAA14364@telnor.net>



>An, please, Prana IS NOT, in any form, the same like Ki.



>Carlos.



Actually, Prana is quite similar to Zong Qi, the so-called 'Ancestral Qi'

of the chest. But that is where the similarity ends, and that is simply

like saying that the Lung seems to circulate a kind of subtle quality that

is similar to the description of the Prana of the yogis. However, even in

this, there is NO implication of Zong Qi being universal or the underlying

'life force' in the universe.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 23:29:02 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Fingernail Loss/Chernobyl Connection

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960916033852.00ad36a8@mail.halcyon.com>



>>Did the other cases have diagnosable illnesses? Hypertension *can* cause

>>loss of nails. And there have certainly been plenty of causes for illness

>>in Russia over the last ten years.

>>

>>Paul

>>

>We've asked her to see if she can find out the similarities between the 18

>cases in terms of diagnoses, lifestyle,  etc.    Does loss of nails from

>Hypertension occur like it was described here?  And is it likely that the

>nail continues to fall off with each new nail with Hypertension nail loss?

>How common is this?  I don't seem to find references in my research material

>that connect the two.  If you think this is related to her Hypertension,

>what would you prescribe?  Thanks.

>

>Marcia Elston



Well, 18 cases isn't a huge number in as large a population as you are

talking about. Trace mineral deficiencies can cause this sort of problem,

mainly zinc deficiency, and this may very well be widespread in Russian

soils as it is in all areas of past glaciation. Vitamin C deficiency can

cause nail loss, and this too can be common in areas without fresh produce

throughout the winter.



Now, it is quite possible that people exposed to radiation have a VERY high

need for vitamin C, and even ordinary dietary levels of C aren't

sufficient. I would recommend examining such localized physical complaints

with the most physical explanation available FIRST, before seeking broader

causes.



Paul.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 15 Sep 1996 23:38:32 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Interesting herb books

In-Reply-To:  <199609160027.UAA04390@mime3.prodigy.com>



>giggling.. wrong.. poopsie.. oh.. I mean Dear Paul,  Your statement

>is not true..

>I knew when you didn't know what Reiki was and hat you didn't

>understand all these other

>forms of the same type of healing..



I know what Reiki is, and I think it is horseshit. Especially the bit about

the Buddha energy being involved, and the 'mastery' that you are awarded

after a few weeks of study. What nonsense.



>Grinning..and now you've given me

>proof positive..

>The life force or energy of the body.. lets do it scientific.. ok

>Once upon a time there was an atom.. and now.. its understood there

>are three parts to the atom

>and within this atom is the perputual motion or energy. Everything in

>the Universe is energy just different vibrations and densities.. via

>Albert Einstein. E=mc squared.  Nothing is ever destroyed just

>changes form.

>Then color, refracted light and sounds are another vibration.   If

>you use these sounds and vibrations and influence them, you can

>balance and change them.

>With an Electronic/Magnetic field you can stimulate the seratonin and

>increase healing from within the person. Qi, Ki, Chi is this energy

>or electronic/magnetic force field..



Qi, as that term was meant in classical Chinese culture, is not an

electomagnetic force field. It is not a form of energy. Your 'authorities'

may make that claim, but they do not provide ANY proof or documentation of

this claim...because there isn't any.



>and IN Chinese Medicine the

>doctor can do this. Reiki practioners can do the same...

>And guess what.. all the martial arts teach the same thing, only they

>use it for protection/combat.



I think you probably know nothing about martial arts.



>Now Prana is the same, only the Eastern philosophy describe the life

>force as breath.. and Prana is the breath.. or the life force.  Is

>this to difficult?.. if so I can try to explain it like "Bu sa

>bumnym" Korean Martial arts Instructor- explains it to his after

>school crowd.. lesse I think he uses the Ninja turtle and Ninja Bunny

>routine.. laughing..

>Flute



You sound like a goof-off. Healing is a serious matter.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 00:04:58 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Interesting herb books

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960916061300.00688774@alaska.ktn.net>



>>Is this the 1949 translation  by Ilza Veith, or a later translation?  This

>>is "The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine."

>>Marcia Elston

>>

>It says it's a "New translation of the Neijin Suwen with commentary" by

>Maoshing Ni, Ph.D.  Is this significant?  In this translation there seems to

>be an attempt to make it understandable to Westerners.  I'm sure some is

>lost this way but it is  a place to start.



Maoshing Ni may have an honorary PhD from the school he runs, but he is not

a linguist, and his translation is not going to be reliable. I haven't

looked at this particular book, but I will have a look at it. I wouldn't

expect much in the way of a clear, reliable translation.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:49:34 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         bill jackson <jackson@NR.INFI.NET>

Subject:      Introduction



Hello all,

I would like to introduce myself, my name is Gerri Jackson and I live in

High Point, NC, USA. I am married and have 3 kids. I have recently begun to

study (at home, thru books) medicinal herbs. I started soapmaking, which got

me interested in Aromatherapy, which brought me to where I am now. I find

herbalism truly fascinating and I would like to learn all I can. We are

semi-homesteaders and I believe learning to heal myself and my family falls

into that catagory. I also have a great mistrust of aggressive medicine. Two

examples are: My daughter (14mos at the time, 23mos now) was given a shot of

Depot Meydrol (sp?) in her left leg above the knee. We were told she had

asthma (she didn't) the shot was totally unnecessary, leaving her leg

deformed. Apparently, the shot destroys the fat and possibly some muscle. It

does not cause her any pain, and she walks perfect. I called several

hospitals (Duke University was hesitant to speak to us) and everyone said

the same thing. We were told that it may grow back, it may not. She may need

surgery when she is older to repair her leg.



My son was being treated for asthma thru the county health dept. We were

told he had no allergies and he was getting proper treatment. I took him to

a specialist and had several test done because it seemed as though he was

getting worse. Come to find out he was allergic to several things.



I have several questions, sorry this is so long.



1. Is there anything I can do to help bring my daughters leg back to normal?



2. My grandmother has arthritis and I would like to make something to ease

her pain, such as a lotion, massage oil. I was told Rosemary, but she has

High Blood Pressure.



3. I also have a 3mo old son who has thrush. I was going to treat him with

aromatherapy, but am interested in herbs to try. He is breastfed so I am

also affected.



4. My 3mo old also has a little bit of cradle cap, any ideas?



5. I am interested in any books that are good for a beginner, something easy

to read, not too technical. I have one book I love called "The New Age

Herbalist".



6. I have called several schools regarding home courses. Are there any

schools I should look out for? Any that are excellent?



Well, that's all I can think of for now, forgive the length, I wanted to get

it all in at one time. All info and ideas will truly be appreciated.

Thank you,

Gerri Jackson

jackson@nr.infi.net



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:43:29 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         linda/richard <kyote@WOLFENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Devil's club



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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit







----------

From:   Anita Hales[SMTP:hales1@KTN.NET]

Sent:   Sunday, September 15, 1996 11:12 PM

To:     Multiple recipients of list HERB

Subject:        Re: Devil's club



>anita;

>devils club is a member of the gensing family(araliaceae)

>according to michael moore (medicinal plants of the pacific west)

>"the essential oil of the root contains nerolidol, terreyol, dodonene,

bulnesol, dodecenol, cadenene, and cedrol (among others), as well as

araliasides and panaxosides"

>

>richard

>

>

Richard,  can you tell me anything about these ingredients.  I am familiar

with araliasides and panaxosides but not the rest.  Thanx





anita;

sure can't!! i just copied the information from michael's book.

sorry

richard



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From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:14:59 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         ANNE KNOX <aknox@CA0330.CASO.CA.BLM.GOV>

Subject:      Re: menstrual cramps

In-Reply-To:  <v03007801ae6104c86a37@[206.138.116.127]>



On Sat, 14 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:



> >I have been on Depo Provera for birth control for over 3 years now.  (In

> >case you didn't know, it's a shot that lasts 3 months).  Now I have

> >hardly any flow at all, no cramps, no bloating, nothing.  At first I

> >thought that was great, but now I am wondering about the effects of not

> >having any flow (I used to have normal periods).  Should I encourage

> >bleeding by using Dong Quai, or Shatavari, or some other herb, or should

> >I just count my blessings?

> >

> >- Anne

>

> And how old are you?

>

> Paul

>

28 years old (and still in school, sigh)



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:55:58 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Lisa Saul <lisas@MINDSPRING.COM>

Subject:      garlic



i am wondering the medicinal value in raw garlic versus a baked head of

garlic....



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:58:38 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         The Doctor {Who?} <doctor@NETCOM.COM>

Organization: Who says I have to be organized!?!

Subject:      No MIME, PLEASE!!!



I'm no moderator, but...



I'd like to request that when posting to lists you NOT use any MIME

encodings of any kind, as many people out there do not have the ability to

read it as it was intended.



-If you want to 'attach' something, DON'T, instead please just import the

PLAIN ASCII text into your msg.



This msg. is being posted since I've seen such a post to this list of late,

and the attachment seemed to be meaningless data, or at least an undefined

format of some text & something un-intelligible.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:09:32 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Doug Grinder <dgrin@AGT.NET>

Subject:      Dong Quai



Thanks Paul! I'm sorry if my questions may be stupid but I guess I am

stupid when it comes to herbs.I am a 20 yr. old single mother who has

just started taking a home course on Alternative Medicine which is a

basic intro. to the more popular therapies.I've found that I am most

intressted in the herbal section and joined this group to learn more. I

don't have alot of money to spend on reference books right now so I am

using the internet and health mags for now. I will learn more as time

goes by and hopefulf will soon be able to awnser everyone's questions

instead of asking them. (Thanks to everyone who awnsers my questions even

if they are stupid!) I am here to learn and can take POSITIVE critisism

so please feel free to tell me if I have been misinformed.Thanks again

and please be patient I will learn!!!

Christine



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:30:16 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: No MIME, PLEASE!!!

In-Reply-To:  <199609162058.NAA06657@netcom19.netcom.com>



>This msg. is being posted since I've seen such a post to this list of late,

>and the attachment seemed to be meaningless data, or at least an undefined

>format of some text & something un-intelligible.



These so-called attachments are always Win-dat gifts from the loverly folks

at Microsoft. I say 'so-called' attachments because they aren't attachments

per se...they are the message you see, in an encoded form, attached as far

as I can tell in order to provide their mailreaders with a form of the

email that they can read regardless of the sender. As usual, they take the

desire to be a monopoly to the extreme of giving everyone down the line

hemorrhoids.



People using MS Mail need to learn to TURN THIS STUFF OFF. Of course, you

probably have to be an advanced programmer to figure out how.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:34:29 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: menstrual cramps

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.91.960916101401.29109B-100000@ca0330.caso.ca.blm.gov>



>On Sat, 14 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:

>

>> >I have been on Depo Provera for birth control for over 3 years now.  (In

>> >case you didn't know, it's a shot that lasts 3 months).  Now I have

>> >hardly any flow at all, no cramps, no bloating, nothing.  At first I

>> >thought that was great, but now I am wondering about the effects of not

>> >having any flow (I used to have normal periods).  Should I encourage

>> >bleeding by using Dong Quai, or Shatavari, or some other herb, or should

>> >I just count my blessings?

>> >

>> >- Anne

>>

>> And how old are you?

>>

>> Paul

>>

>28 years old (and still in school, sigh)



In almost all cases I have seen where Depo Provera has been used in young

women, there is plenty of accumulated Heat in the Liver as a result of this

birth control. Blocking the menstrual cycle hormonally like this is VERY

bad for you.



A menstrual cycle is like any natural excretory cycle...IMPORTANT FOR YOUR

HEALTH.



Do you have signs of irritability, nervousness, sense of elevated

temperature, hot weather intolerance, insomnia, appetite variability, or

the like?



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 22:06:23 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         bill jackson <jackson@NR.INFI.NET>

Subject:      Introduction



Hello all,

I would like to introduce myself, my name is Gerri Jackson and I live in

High Point, NC, USA. I am married and have 3 kids. I have recently begun to

study (at home, thru books) medicinal herbs. I started soapmaking, which got

me interested in Aromatherapy, which brought me to where I am now. I find

herbalism truly fascinating and I would like to learn all I can. We are

semi-homesteaders and I believe learning to heal myself and my family falls

into that catagory. I also have a great mistrust of aggressive medicine. Two

examples are: My daughter (14mos at the time, 23mos now) was given a shot of

Depot Meydrol (sp?) in her left leg above the knee. We were told she had

asthma (she didn't) the shot was totally unnecessary, leaving her leg

deformed. Apparently, the shot destroys the fat and possibly some muscle. It

does not cause her any pain, and she walks perfect. I called several

hospitals (Duke University was hesitant to speak to us) and everyone said

the same thing. We were told that it may grow back, it may not. She may need

surgery when she is older to repair her leg.



My son was being treated for asthma thru the county health dept. We were

told he had no allergies and he was getting proper treatment. I took him to

a specialist and had several test done because it seemed as though he was

getting worse. Come to find out he was allergic to several things.



I have several questions, sorry this is so long.



1. Is there anything I can do to help bring my daughters leg back to normal?



2. My grandmother has arthritis and I would like to make something to ease

her pain, such as a lotion, massage oil. I was told Rosemary, but she has

High Blood Pressure.



3. I also have a 3mo old son who has thrush. I was going to treat him with

aromatherapy, but am interested in herbs to try. He is breastfed so I am

also affected.



4. My 3mo old also has a little bit of cradle cap, any ideas?



5. I am interested in any books that are good for a beginner, something easy

to read, not too technical. I have one book I love called "The New Age

Herbalist".



6. I have called several schools regarding home courses. Are there any

schools I should look out for? Any that are excellent?



7. Any info regarding suppliers of organically grown herbs (wholesale,

please) would be great!!



Well, that's all I can think of for now, forgive the length, I wanted to get

it all in at one time. All info and ideas will truly be appreciated.

Thank you,

Gerri Jackson

jackson@nr.infi.net



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 22:15:45 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         bill jackson <jackson@NR.INFI.NET>

Subject:      Re: menstrual cramps



Paul,

I am sorry to send this to you personally, but my subscription to the Herb

list is kinda messed up at the moment.  Can receive but not post, go figure

that <BG>. The reason I am writing is that I am also on Depo Provera and

have the same symtoms and Anne, I am beginning to become reluctant to get

any more shots. Any info would be appreciated. I am very new to medicinal

herbs, but find it utterly fascinating.

Cheers,

Gerri Jackson

jackson@nr.infi.net



At 04:34 PM 9/16/96 -0700, you wrote:

>>On Sat, 14 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:

>>

>>> >I have been on Depo Provera for birth control for over 3 years now.  (In

>>> >case you didn't know, it's a shot that lasts 3 months).  Now I have

>>> >hardly any flow at all, no cramps, no bloating, nothing.  At first I

>>> >thought that was great, but now I am wondering about the effects of not

>>> >having any flow (I used to have normal periods).  Should I encourage

>>> >bleeding by using Dong Quai, or Shatavari, or some other herb, or should

>>> >I just count my blessings?

>>> >

>>> >- Anne

>>>

>>> And how old are you?

>>>

>>> Paul

>>>

>>28 years old (and still in school, sigh)

>

>In almost all cases I have seen where Depo Provera has been used in young

>women, there is plenty of accumulated Heat in the Liver as a result of this

>birth control. Blocking the menstrual cycle hormonally like this is VERY

>bad for you.

>

>A menstrual cycle is like any natural excretory cycle...IMPORTANT FOR YOUR

>HEALTH.

>

>Do you have signs of irritability, nervousness, sense of elevated

>temperature, hot weather intolerance, insomnia, appetite variability, or

>the like?

>

>Paul

>

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 22:24:15 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         bill jackson <jackson@NR.INFI.NET>

Subject:      Re: Dong Quai



Christine,

I am happy to hear about your learning. I am in the same way as you. I am

new and looking to learn all I can. I have not chosen a school to study by

as of yet. I have received several brochures, tho. Could you tell me who you

chose to study by? Do you feel as though it is money well spent(I am on an

extremely tight budget)? How much are you paying for your classes? How many

classes does it include? Is it a certificate course?



Forgive all the questions, I am very nervous spending over $400 and I don't

want to be ripped off.



I am sorry for the personal post, but my subscription to herb list is a

little messed up. I can get everyone elses posts, but not post to the list.

Crazy!!



Cheers,

Gerri Jackson

jackson@nr.infi.net



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 19:33:52 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Shea <sheag@OZ.NET>

Subject:      Re: No MIME, PLEASE!!!



> People using MS Mail need to learn to TURN THIS STUFF OFF. Of course, you

> probably have to be an advanced programmer to figure out how.



No, all you have to do is check a box.



Shea



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 22:30:29 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         bill jackson <jackson@NR.INFI.NET>

Subject:      Introduction



Hello all,

I would like to introduce myself, my name is Gerri Jackson and I live in

High Point, NC, USA. I am married and have 3 kids. I have recently begun to

study (at home, thru books) medicinal herbs. I started soapmaking, which got

me interested in Aromatherapy, which brought me to where I am now. I find

herbalism truly fascinating and I would like to learn all I can. We are

semi-homesteaders and I believe learning to heal myself and my family falls

into that catagory. I also have a great mistrust of aggressive medicine. Two

examples are: My daughter (14mos at the time, 23mos now) was given a shot of

Depot Meydrol (sp?) in her left leg above the knee. We were told she had

asthma (she didn't) the shot was totally unnecessary, leaving her leg

deformed. Apparently, the shot destroys the fat and possibly some muscle. It

does not cause her any pain, and she walks perfect. I called several

hospitals (Duke University was hesitant to speak to us) and everyone said

the same thing. We were told that it may grow back, it may not. She may need

surgery when she is older to repair her leg.



My son was being treated for asthma thru the county health dept. We were

told he had no allergies and he was getting proper treatment. I took him to

a specialist and had several test done because it seemed as though he was

getting worse. Come to find out he was allergic to several things.



I have several questions, sorry this is so long.



1. Is there anything I can do to help bring my daughters leg back to normal?



2. My grandmother has arthritis and I would like to make something to ease

her pain, such as a lotion, massage oil. I was told Rosemary, but she has

High Blood Pressure.



3. I also have a 3mo old son who has thrush. I was going to treat him with

aromatherapy, but am interested in herbs to try. He is breastfed so I am

also affected.



4. My 3mo old also has a little bit of cradle cap, any ideas?



5. I am interested in any books that are good for a beginner, something easy

to read, not too technical. I have one book I love called "The New Age

Herbalist".



6. I have called several schools regarding home courses. Are there any

schools I should look out for? Any that are excellent?



7. Any info regarding suppliers of organically grown herbs (wholesale,

please) would be great!!



Well, that's all I can think of for now, forgive the length, I wanted to get

it all in at one time. All info and ideas will truly be appreciated.

Thank you,

Gerri Jackson

jackson@nr.infi.net



P.S.  If this is the 3rd time you have received this, I am very sorry. My

subscription is a little crazy right now. Trying to fix it tho. :))



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 21:35:22 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: menstrual cramps

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960917021545.00667728@nr.infi.net>



>Paul,

>I am sorry to send this to you personally, but my subscription to the Herb

>list is kinda messed up at the moment.  Can receive but not post, go figure

>that <BG>. The reason I am writing is that I am also on Depo Provera and

>have the same symtoms and Anne, I am beginning to become reluctant to get

>any more shots. Any info would be appreciated. I am very new to medicinal

>herbs, but find it utterly fascinating.

>Cheers,

>Gerri Jackson



I am a GIANT proponent of CONDOMS. The Japanese make some very thin, very

comfortable, very strong condoms, under names like Kimono, Max, etc., and

they are a vastly better choice for birth control than ANYTHING that

involves disturbing a person's hormonal rhythms. They also confer several

other benefits, among them blocking minor and major disease transmission,

cleanliness, a mild reduction in stimulation which can be an aid to male

performance as long as it IS mild (as it is in these brands), and a pause

in the proceedings that can be a moment of affection and refocus on

affection.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 22:04:16 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         linda/richard <kyote@WOLFENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Dong Quai



----------

From:   bill jackson[SMTP:jackson@NR.INFI.NET]

Sent:   Monday, September 16, 1996 7:24 PM

To:     Multiple recipients of list HERB

Subject:        Re: Dong Quai



Christine,

I am happy to hear about your learning. I am in the same way as you. I am

new and looking to learn all I can. I have not chosen a school to study by

as of yet. I have received several brochures, tho. Could you tell me who you

chose to study by? Do you feel as though it is money well spent(I am on an

extremely tight budget)? How much are you paying for your classes? How many

classes does it include? Is it a certificate course?



Forgive all the questions, I am very nervous spending over $400 and I don't

want to be ripped off.



I am sorry for the personal post, but my subscription to herb list is a

little messed up. I can get everyone elses posts, but not post to the list.

Crazy!!





Cheers,

Gerri Jackson

jackson@nr.infi.net





check out bastyr university at http://www.bastyr.edu/

richard



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 09:10:00 CDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Mickie Erickson <Mickie@DECISIONSYS.COM>

Subject:      Same song, second verse......



As someone who has worked with ki under the supervision of my martial

arts instructor and as someone who has a B.S. in astrophysics let me

assure you that ki is NOT (I repeat NOT) electromagnetic.  If it was,

we'd be able to measure it and it would obey the relevant laws of

physics.  We cant and it doesn't.   We just refer to it as 'energy'

because it is a convenient analogy.



Also, this isn't an 'alternative healing' list, it's an 'herb' list.  If

you want to discuss Reiki, I'm sure you can find a more appropriate forum

floating out there in cyperspace somewhere.



Mickie

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Mickie Erickson (mickie@decisionsys.com)



  "You are finite, Zathrus is finite, this is wrong tool"

                                              - Zathrus, Babylon 5



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:15:12 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Cindy Lee <CindyLee@MINDSPRING.COM>

Subject:      Re: No MIME, PLEASE!!!



Shea wrote:

"No, all you have to do is check a box."



There are 2 places to turn this off. In the address book and under

services. In addition when you hit reply or reply all sometimes it will

automatically be checked (even though it's off in both of the other

places). By clicking on the TO name you can check and then turn it off (be

sure to hit apply).



As you can see it's a tad more complicated than just checking a box. Also,

it is not covered in the instructions as it's assumed you will be using MS

as an inter-office or MS user to MS user function in which case you have no

problems. The only time I've had trouble is going thru list servers that

interpreted this info (format instructs to receiving party) as an

attachment.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

><>  <><

     |_

    \__/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Smiles,

Cindy Lee

Zone 8

cindylee@mindspring.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 A rose by any other name would likely be

   "deadly thorn-bearing assault vegetation."

 (Robert Bullock)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:20:43 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         ANNE KNOX <aknox@CA0330.CASO.CA.BLM.GOV>

Subject:      Re: menstrual cramps

In-Reply-To:  <v03007804ae6393e10b40@[206.138.118.101]>



On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:



>

> In almost all cases I have seen where Depo Provera has been used in young

> women, there is plenty of accumulated Heat in the Liver as a result of this

> birth control. Blocking the menstrual cycle hormonally like this is VERY

> bad for you.

>

> A menstrual cycle is like any natural excretory cycle...IMPORTANT FOR YOUR

> HEALTH.

>

> Do you have signs of irritability, nervousness, sense of elevated

> temperature, hot weather intolerance, insomnia, appetite variability, or

> the like?

>

> Paul

>



Actually, I usually feel cold - especially hands and feet.  I've always

been that way though.  Good for me since I work outside in the heat a

lot.  Insomnia - well I wake up often during the night, but no trouble

getting back to sleep.  Appetite variability - yes I have that, but since

I started watching my diet carefully that has helped a lot.  I have very

poor digestion, and my skin has been bad lately - with rashes and

eruptions and bruises.  My stomach bloats only when the shot effects

start to fade (every 3 months), and that's how I know I need another.

Irritability & nervousness - YES, but I thought that was just me.  I get

nervous & irritable in cycles (usually every Sunday night when I know I

have work the next day!)



I do have *some* flow, but nothing like I used to have.  The doctor of

course said that was normal, but I just wonder if that lining isn't shed

what will the effects be?



- Anne



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 12:53:09 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Walter Semerenko <walter@ORLINTER.COM>

Subject:      Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc



Hi,



I work a part time job in front of a computer screen.  When lunchtime comes

around, a half an hour later, my energy level goes down to the dumps.  I

take multivitamins and individual vitamins and am a healthy male and

excercise twice a week (though lately I haven't for about three weeks).  I

try to avoid caffiene pills and coffee but sometimes it is necessary

because I would keel over.



Anyways, I have tried Siberian ginseng and gingko.   I heard that Siberian

ginseng is not that potent as far as being an energy stimulant.   I

recently bought one of those energy pills (similar to Ginsana) and am

currently trying them out.   I also bought guaranteed potency gingko (24%).

 Last time I bought a cheap ginkgo at a local supermarket.  The energy

pills contain panax ginseng (korean).



Anyways, I wanted to know if any of you out there has any advice for me.

For the people who take ginseng, do you take it with meals, at morning,

before lunch, etc?  Also, do you take it in combination with vitamins like

Coq10 or other herbs?



Another problem could be that my sleeping habits aren't normal.  I don't

have insomnia, but I work another job that is in the late hours...but that

is another post.



Anybody's personal experience with these herbs would be helpful for me.



Thanks,



Walter.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:58:55 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         ANNA LOUISE FLETCHER <BRIANNA@INFOAVE.NET>

Subject:      Re: garlic



Lisa Saul wrote:

>

> i am wondering the medicinal value in raw garlic versus a baked head of

> garlic....Lisa-



Most herbals I think will tell you that raw garlic or garlic in oil

(capsules) is best.  I'm the type who does not believe everything that I

read so I experimented. Baked and powdered garlic did nothing for me. Raw

garlic has cured every single microbial-type ailment that I have ever

come in contact with. My husband was a RN (ICU, ER) for the last 6 years

and he brings home all kinds of unsavory illnesses from his patients but

my children and I fare rather well thanks to a healthy diet and lots of

garlic. I hope that this helps.

Anna F.

P.S. Did I mention lots of sleep, also?



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:49:29 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Doug Grinder <dgrin@AGT.NET>

Subject:      Re: Dong Quai



bill jackson wrote:

>

> Christine,

> I am happy to hear about your learning. I am in the same way as you. I am

> new and looking to learn all I can. I have not chosen a school to study by

> as of yet. I have received several brochures, tho. Could you tell me who you

> chose to study by? Do you feel as though it is money well spent(I am on an

> extremely tight budget)? How much are you paying for your classes? How many

> classes does it include? Is it a certificate course?

>

> Forgive all the questions, I am very nervous spending over $400 and I don't

> want to be ripped off.

>

> I am sorry for the personal post, but my subscription to herb list is a

> little messed up. I can get everyone elses posts, but not post to the list.

> Crazy!!

>

> Cheers,

> Gerri Jackson

> jackson@nr.infi.net



Gerri- this was posted to the list!I also got Paul's message you thought

was being sent only to him.Are you new to e-mail or just having problems

on your end?I think we are all getting your messages just fine!!!

The course I am taking is a two year course from Stratford Career

Institute.I am from Alberta(Canada) so I'm not sure of your rules but

this  basic intro course will give me the opportunity to become a

"natural health consultant". I will only be able to assist people in

choosing  the  right alternative therapy for them, I CANNOT practice the

therapies.It is a great beginers course for people who are interessted in

alt. med.

but who are not sure of exactly which field they want to enter. The

classes include:History of

AM,Ayurveda,Iredology,Meditation,Hypnosis,Reflexology,Yoga,Nutrition,

Herbal med.,Aromatherapy,Bach Flower remedies,Homeopathy....and tons

more.If you are interested let me know and I will send you a more complet

 course outline and their e-mail address to get in touch with them.

The course cost aprox.700 dollars Canadian which can be paid monthly,I

pay 43 dollars a month.I definatly think it is worth it. They are also

very flexible when it comes to sending in my tests,Being a single mom

with 2 jobs I don't always get a chance to work on it every day.They have

no time limits set.Well good luck!If you have more questions just ask!!

Christine



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:59:27 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: Crap or Cure?



Hulda Clark?

Strike a note of terror in anyones heart? Or is that nausea?

I haven't quite made up my mind about her.  I'm sort of on the verge of

getting sick, but I would like to know if anyone else knows anything about

thie woman and her herbal cure for almost every serious ailment known to man .



I first heard about her through a friend and he was impressed with her "Cure

for Cancer" book.  So I went through the net and hunted her down.

I came up with a promotional abstract about her book "Cure for Cancer" and

"Cure for HIV and AIDS".

BUT...

You gotta BUY her book.  Seems to me a natropathic Doctor might have

different ethics, but I suppose she has to make money some how.

Well, I am the kind of person who isnt satisfied with..."Here buy my book."

So I went  a hunting again.  This time I have come up with an abstract by a

man who was impressed with the book and recipes for her herbal parasitic

killers.  So impressed he goes on to SELL you on a product called

CLEAR(registered trademark).

To come to the point.

The claim is that the following will de-parasite your system and aliviate

such annoying things as AIDS and CANCER.

I scoff.



Black Walnut Hulls (From black Walnut tree) <---as was

Wormwood (From Artemesia shrub)

Common Cloves (From Cloves)



These taken in a strenuous regemine for thee months is the trick.  All the

ingredients must be VERY VERY fresh.



I tend to agree with the idea that todays population is afflicted with a

growing number of malidies that may be directly related to lifestyle,

nutrition and environmental co-factors.  Detoxification and regular use of

herbs is most surely the path to be taken to be free of many of them, but is

it possible that one can defeat the apparently undefeatable with this simple

recipe?  Does this woman have credibility?



Anyone?



Ron



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 14:12:38 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Robert L. Lamons" <rlamons@PEN.K12.VA.US>

Subject:      Connective tissure rx

In-Reply-To:  <v03007804ae6393e10b40@[206.138.118.101]>; from "Paul Iannone" at

              Sep 16, 96 4:34 pm



I am asking for a friend who is having problems with her

connective tissue or so it seems.  She has heel spurs,

tendonitis(Lateral epicondylitis or tennis elbow, for which she

even had surgery,) Bursitis in her hips and foot pains

including Morton Neuroma.



She is a woman approaching 50 or so.  I cant give any insight

to her diet.  She has had a daughter who is in 2d year of

college I beleve, went through a diviorce about 6 or 7 years

ago and is basically inactive for all I know.



What could I tell her to try?  I would take her case

homeopathically but I am not that advabnced yet.

--

*******************************************

I love learning, but I hate being taught! *

Bob Lamons-Annandale High School, Va.     *

rlamons@pen.k12.va.us                     *

rlamons@jei.umd.edu                       *

*******************************************



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:43:12 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Shea <sheag@OZ.NET>

Subject:      Re: No MIME, PLEASE!!!



> There are 2 places to turn this off. In the address book and under

> services. In addition when you hit reply or reply all sometimes it will

> automatically be checked (even though it's off in both of the other

> places).



Untrue, unless perhaps you're using a beta version of the product that has

a bug, in which case you should report it and use one of the release

versions.  If you have filled in the properties correctly under the address

book and general settings, you will not 'sometimes' 'autmomatically' revert

back to a default position, unless you have perhaps performed a warm boot

or done something else that compromised your  settings. I repeat, all you

have to do is check a box. Yes, if you chose to set up a nickname, you'll

have to choose the properties associated with that nickname, but again, it

involves checkng a box.



>Also,

> it is not covered in the instructions as it's assumed you will be using

MS

> as an inter-office or MS user to MS user function in which case you have

no

> problems.



I don't know where you got your version, but my instructions as well as the

help files, clearly explain the situation and how to resolve it if you are

not solely using Exchange to send mail between network users.



Shea



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:43:29 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: garlic



At 12:58 PM 9/17/96 -0700, you wrote:

>Lisa Saul wrote:

>>

>> i am wondering the medicinal value in raw garlic versus a baked head of

>> garlic....Lisa-

>

>Most herbals I think will tell you that raw garlic or garlic in oil

>(capsules) is best.  I'm the type who does not believe everything that I

>read so I experimented. Baked and powdered garlic did nothing for me. Raw

>garlic has cured every single microbial-type ailment that I have ever

>come in contact with. My husband was a RN (ICU, ER) for the last 6 years

>and he brings home all kinds of unsavory illnesses from his patients but

>my children and I fare rather well thanks to a healthy diet and lots of

>garlic. I hope that this helps.

>Anna F.

>P.S. Did I mention lots of sleep, also?

>

>

Watch for Garlic overdose.  1) To much Raw Garlic ingested can cause

immediate nausea

Make sure you eat the raw garlic with something.   I eat raw cloves, but am

sure to do so after food or follow immediately with food.  2) do not exceed

more than 3-4 cloves at a sitting unless you are an experienced garlic eater.

3)  The medicinal properties in garlic only are present when garlic is

crushed or masticated or sliced.  The more mashed the clove the more medicinal.

4) Massive quantities of garlic can cause some serious side effects.  But i

think that this pertains soley to ingestion of raw garlic.



I love it for colds.  You can feel it work immediately if it is chewed.  If

you can take the sting.  It also helps with Hairy Leukoplakia in my experience.



Ron



A garlic eaters best friends tend to be other garlic eaters ( by someone else)



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:38:22 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: menstrual cramps

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.91.960917075942.18583A-100000@ca0330.caso.ca.blm.gov>



>Actually, I usually feel cold - especially hands and feet.



Liver Qi not spreading to the extremities...actually often a sign of Heat.



>I've always

>been that way though.



So you are particularly unsuited to such druggings.



>Good for me since I work outside in the heat a

>lot.



I disagree. That combination will cause problems in the future.



>Insomnia - well I wake up often during the night, but no trouble

>getting back to sleep.



That's still insomnia. Later in your life you will not get back to sleep so

easily.



>Appetite variability - yes I have that, but since

>I started watching my diet carefully that has helped a lot.  I have very

>poor digestion, and my skin has been bad lately - with rashes and

>eruptions and bruises.



Again, sounds like Heat and, yes, weak Digestion, which comes along with

Liver imbalances.



>My stomach bloats only when the shot effects

>start to fade (every 3 months), and that's how I know I need another.



Because the damage the shots do is at the Organ level, deeper than might

otherwise show symptoms on a daily basis.



>Irritability & nervousness - YES, but I thought that was just me.  I get

>nervous & irritable in cycles (usually every Sunday night when I know I

>have work the next day!)



At your relatively young age, this may seem trivial, but it is not.



>I do have *some* flow, but nothing like I used to have.  The doctor of

>course said that was normal, but I just wonder if that lining isn't shed

>what will the effects be?

>

>- Anne



The main problem is that your womb isn't able to drain its Heat and

Stagnation. The lining is probably not being formed to any great degree,

due to the hormones. But such shots can produce Blood Stagnation as

well...doesn't sound like you're particularly heading in that direction,

though.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:44:51 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <20960917165018492.AAA98@prefferc>



>Hi,

>

>I work a part time job in front of a computer screen.  When lunchtime comes

>around, a half an hour later, my energy level goes down to the dumps.  I

>take multivitamins and individual vitamins and am a healthy male and

>excercise twice a week (though lately I haven't for about three weeks).  I

>try to avoid caffiene pills and coffee but sometimes it is necessary

>because I would keel over.



>Walter.



Stop eating fruit and sweets.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:57:12 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Crap or Cure?

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960917175927.0067afcc@pop.televar.com>



>but is

>it possible that one can defeat the apparently undefeatable with this simple

>recipe?  Does this woman have credibility?

>

>Anyone?



1 vote for crap.



Every Chinese hospital has pulled out the stops with all sorts of herbs to

try and treat cancer, and regardless of some successes, the fact is that

cancer is a deadly disease that wipes out many. And it is UTTERLY a sin to

tell people otherwise, especially if it lines your pockets.



In addition. I hope it is obvious that the idea that parasites cause cancer

in general is utter nonsense. THAT clinical medicine could not find such

parasites is absurd...what both biomedicine and Clark apparently cannot see

is the OBVIOUS fact that cancer is often a *constitutional* illness, with a

whole range of concomittant causes.



Thirdly, there are no panaceas. Diagnosis, and proper herbal therapy are

the only course to take. Single MAGICAL formulas, like single MAGICAL

herbs, are for the wolves and lambs of this race.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:58:57 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: garlic

In-Reply-To:  <323F02FF.40D5@InfoAve.Net>



>Lisa Saul wrote:

>>

>> i am wondering the medicinal value in raw garlic versus a baked head of

>> garlic....Lisa-

>

>Most herbals I think will tell you that raw garlic or garlic in oil

>(capsules) is best.



While the main antimicrobial ingredient of garlic (Allicin) is destroyed by

heat, cooked garlic remains a source of sulphur in the diet, which has

health benefits, especially with the hair.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:16:19 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Gerald I. Sugarman" <GIS01@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Connective tissure rx



try arginine 1000 mg 2x/day, Vit c 1000 mg 3x/day and GLA 124 mg 2/day

(extracted from 1000 mg of the Borage).

Jerry



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:25:50 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         ANNE KNOX <aknox@CA0330.CASO.CA.BLM.GOV>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <20960917165018492.AAA98@prefferc>



On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, Walter Semerenko wrote:



> Hi,

>

> I work a part time job in front of a computer screen.  When lunchtime comes

> around, a half an hour later, my energy level goes down to the dumps.  I

> take multivitamins and individual vitamins and am a healthy male and

> excercise twice a week (though lately I haven't for about three weeks).  I

> try to avoid caffiene pills and coffee but sometimes it is necessary

> because I would keel over.

>

> Anyways, I have tried Siberian ginseng and gingko.   I heard that Siberian

> ginseng is not that potent as far as being an energy stimulant.   I

> recently bought one of those energy pills (similar to Ginsana) and am

> currently trying them out.   I also bought guaranteed potency gingko (24%).

>  Last time I bought a cheap ginkgo at a local supermarket.  The energy

> pills contain panax ginseng (korean).

>

> Anyways, I wanted to know if any of you out there has any advice for me.

> For the people who take ginseng, do you take it with meals, at morning,

> before lunch, etc?  Also, do you take it in combination with vitamins like

> Coq10 or other herbs?

>

> Another problem could be that my sleeping habits aren't normal.  I don't

> have insomnia, but I work another job that is in the late hours...but that

> is another post.

>

> Anybody's personal experience with these herbs would be helpful for me.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Walter.



I have become a devoted green tea drinker, and find that if I stay away

from other caffeinated beverages like Coke, it really gets me up and

going in the morning!  Here is an excerpt I got off "The Tea Man's"

homepage (no relation or profit interest).  Note that all green tea is

not the same - you get what you pay for in most cases.



Tea is a beverage made from the processed leaf of a plant whose Latin name is:

 Camellia sinensis.



Tea is a stimulant, a very mild stimulant, since it contains caffeine.

It contains fewer miligrams of caffeine per equal-sized cup than does

coffee, but more than cocoa.  Tea contains small quantities of tannic

compounds technically called polyphenols (not tannic acid used in tanning

leather), vitamin A, B2, C, D, K, and P, plus a number of minerals in trace

amounts and also aromatic oils.



One major research finding credits green tea polyphenol extracts with

preventive capability against carcinogenic growth in lungs, stomach and

the esophagus.  Furthermore, green tea extracts might prevent

cardiac arrest and reduce serum cholesterol.



Tea acts as a stimulant to physiological activities; it is a possible

chemo-preventive agent against physiological and cardiovascular

disorders; and theamine--a unique constituent of the tea liquor--helps in

blocking the transfer of inter-cellular messages, thereby preventing the

spread of tumorous growths.



Tea drinking helps to inhibit the activities of common cancer-causing

chemicals (mainly due to the polyphenolic compounds present in the tea

liquor) and thus prevents these chemical agents from transforming normal

cells into cancerous ones.



Sodium and fluoride, also present in tea, are good for the circulation of

body fluids through the kidneys and for the prevention of gum decay.





- Anne



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:41:58 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Crap or Cure?



At 10:59 AM 9/17/96 -0700, Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM> wrote:

>Hulda Clark?



~~~ Snip~~~

>

>Black Walnut Hulls (From black Walnut tree) <---as was

>Wormwood (From Artemesia shrub)

>Common Cloves (From Cloves)

>

>These taken in a strenuous regemine for thee months is the trick.  All the

>ingredients must be VERY VERY fresh.

>

>I tend to agree with the idea that todays population is afflicted with a

>growing number of malidies that may be directly related to lifestyle,

>nutrition and environmental co-factors.  Detoxification and regular use of

>herbs is most surely the path to be taken to be free of many of them, but is

>it possible that one can defeat the apparently undefeatable with this simple

>recipe?  Does this woman have credibility?



I'm not familiar with Hulda Clark, but here is some (certainly not all)

information on the herbs she recommends.



Wormwood (Artemisia absinthium) has been used internally for digestion, poor

appetite, gall bladder complaints and roundworms.   Its properties and

effects:  aromatic, diuretic, bitter herb that has antinflammatory effects

and acts as a tonic for the liver, digestive system and nerves.   TAKEN IN

SMALL DOSES FOR SHORT-TERM TREATMENT ONLY!  Penelope Ode suggests taking a

weak infusion (5-10 gram herb to 500 ml water) for sluggish digestion, poor

appetite and gastritis.  Prescribed for jaundice and hepatitis.  Cautions:

Avoid Artemesias during pregnancy and if breastfeeding.  Essential oil of

Wormwood was an ingredient in Absinthe, an alcoholic apertiff first made by

Henri Pernod in 1797.  Consumption became a serious problem and the use of

wormwood oil as a flavoring was banned in various countries, beginning in

1908 with Switzerland, after the discovery that the thujone content is

addictive, excess causing hallucinations and damage the the central nervous

system.  Today's sucessors - anisette and vermouth - do not contain thujone.

You can still find the illicit absinthe om southern France, Italy and Spain.

The late Euell Gibbons recommended three different formulas for Wormwood,

including one which would cause the user to dream of his true love.



Black Walnut (Juglans nigra)  A bitter, astringent herb that is expectorant

and laxative, soothes irritated tissues and dissolves kidney stones.

Controls many disease-causing organixms and has anticancer properties.  Used

internally for constipation, chronic coughs, asthma and urinary stones

(leaves) menstrual dysfunction or dry flaky excema (oil from nut) and

constipation, sluggish digestion and a liver stimulant (inner bark.)  The

fleshy green outer caseing (rich in fruit acids and minerals) of the nut is

used in an infusion for chornic diarrhea or as a tonic in anemia.



Cloves (Syzygium aromaticum)  A spicy warming stimulant herb that relieves

pain, controls nausea and vomiting and improves digestion, protects against

intestinal parasites and causes uterine contractions.  Strongly antiseptic

and regarded as a kidney tonic in Chinese medicine.



Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 14:35:10 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         ANNE KNOX <aknox@CA0330.CASO.CA.BLM.GOV>

Subject:      Re: menstrual cramps

In-Reply-To:  <v03007806ae649f1c9ec0@[206.138.116.122]>



On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:



> >Actually, I usually feel cold - especially hands and feet.

>

> Liver Qi not spreading to the extremities...actually often a sign of Heat.

>

> >Appetite variability - yes I have that, but since

> >I started watching my diet carefully that has helped a lot.  I have very

> >poor digestion, and my skin has been bad lately - with rashes and

> >eruptions and bruises.

>

> Again, sounds like Heat and, yes, weak Digestion, which comes along with

> Liver imbalances.

>

> The main problem is that your womb isn't able to drain its Heat and

> Stagnation.

>

> Paul

>

Well, you've got me thinking about stopping the shots, however handy they

may be, but it sounds like I have had Liver Heat problems even before the

shots and they just aggravated the problem.  So how do I get my Liver Qi

flowing and get rid of that Heat?  I'm heading to Chinatown in a few

weeks, by the way.



- Anne



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 14:35:02 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <20960917165018492.AAA98@prefferc>



On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, Walter Semerenko wrote:



> Hi,

>

> I work a part time job in front of a computer screen.  When lunchtime comes

> around, a half an hour later, my energy level goes down to the dumps.  I

> take multivitamins and individual vitamins and am a healthy male and

> excercise twice a week (though lately I haven't for about three weeks).  I

> try to avoid caffiene pills and coffee but sometimes it is necessary

> because I would keel over.

>

> Anyways, I wanted to know if any of you out there has any advice for me.

>



I've worked a 10 hour swing shift job for many years and had the same

problems you are having.  I tried both Ginseng and Ginkgo Biloba.  I got

nothing from using the ginseng, but the Ginkgo did seem to help.  I don't

think it made my energy level that much higher, but it certainly made me

more alert.  I found that the Ginkgo worked best if I took it all

throughout the day in even doses rather than trying to just use it to perk

myself up as needed.



*What* I ate at lunch also also effected my energy level.  It became very

evident that sugary stuff and also high-fat foods made me feel logy (in

the case of sugar) and just *blah* (in the case of fats) so I try to

drastically limit these foods.  Chicken, rice, pasta, veggies, fish, and

the occasional fruit-at-the-bottom yogurt is what I mainly take to work

now.  Very rarely do I get tired out like I used to.



Cheers!







-C



___                                                ___

|_|___                              _______________|_|

|_||_|       The Elements           |_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_|______________________________|_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_|Ah, love. The walks over soft grass, the smiles |_|

|_|over candlelight, the arguments over just about |_|

|_|everything else.  |_||_||_| -Max Headroom |_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_|

      __________________________________________

      |_|cbendix@nunic.nu.edu |_||_||_||_||_||_|

      |_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:55:57 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Connective tissure rx

In-Reply-To:  <960917151619_310753626@emout18.mail.aol.com>



>try arginine 1000 mg 2x/day, Vit c 1000 mg 3x/day and GLA 124 mg 2/day

>(extracted from 1000 mg of the Borage).

>Jerry



You have no moral qualms about recommending two grams of arginine and three

grams of vit. C sight unseen, on the basis of a very slim description?



Amazing.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:00:58 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.91.960917121646.27746B-100000@ca0330.caso.ca.blm.gov>



>I have become a devoted green tea drinker, and find that if I stay away

>from other caffeinated beverages like Coke, it really gets me up and

>going in the morning!



And that makes it healthy to live on stimulants?



>Here is an excerpt I got off "The Tea Man's"

>homepage (no relation or profit interest).  Note that all green tea is

>not the same - you get what you pay for in most cases.

>

>Tea is a beverage made from the processed leaf of a plant whose Latin name is:

> Camellia sinensis.

>

>Tea is a stimulant, a very mild stimulant, since it contains caffeine.



It does, and it is not a particularly 'mild' stimulant.



>It contains fewer miligrams of caffeine per equal-sized cup than does

>coffee, but more than cocoa.  Tea contains small quantities of tannic

>compounds technically called polyphenols (not tannic acid used in tanning

>leather), vitamin A, B2, C, D, K, and P, plus a number of minerals in trace

>amounts and also aromatic oils.

>

>One major research finding credits green tea polyphenol extracts with

>preventive capability against carcinogenic growth in lungs, stomach and

>the esophagus.  Furthermore, green tea extracts might prevent

>cardiac arrest and reduce serum cholesterol.



Utterly unproven epidemiological guesswork.



>Tea acts as a stimulant to physiological activities;



Caffeine IS a CNS stimulant, yes.



>it is a possible

>chemo-preventive agent against physiological and cardiovascular

>disorders; and theamine--a unique constituent of the tea liquor--helps in

>blocking the transfer of inter-cellular messages, thereby preventing the

>spread of tumorous growths.



And if that were true, has what side-effects for normal intercellular messages?



>Tea drinking helps to inhibit the activities of common cancer-causing

>chemicals (mainly due to the polyphenolic compounds present in the tea

>liquor) and thus prevents these chemical agents from transforming normal

>cells into cancerous ones.



An unreliable in vitro claim.



>Sodium and fluoride, also present in tea, are good for the circulation of

>body fluids through the kidneys and for the prevention of gum decay.

>

>

>- Anne



The American populace hardly needs another source of EITHER sodium or fluoride.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:07:20 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: menstrual cramps

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.91.960917142954.26368A-100000@ca0330.caso.ca.blm.gov>



>Well, you've got me thinking about stopping the shots, however handy they

>may be, but it sounds like I have had Liver Heat problems even before the

>shots and they just aggravated the problem.  So how do I get my Liver Qi

>flowing and get rid of that Heat?  I'm heading to Chinatown in a few

>weeks, by the way.

>

>- Anne



The most basic formula that deals with this domain is Hsiao Yao San (Xiao

Yao San), available in Chinatown in small green boxes. It does not deal

with the Heat aspect (there is a modified version that does, but it is not

available as pills in Chinatown), but it is a start. Drinking plenty of

peppermint tea can help.



The other side is Boosting your weak Digestion, which involves proper

lifestyle, which I harp on constantly, so you probably have an idea of what

is meant by that reference.



You may well wish to consult a local healer for more precise advice. In any

case, chalk one more up to the evils of 'convenience.'



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:17:17 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.92.960917142114.22011A-100000@nunic.nu.edu>



>I've worked a 10 hour swing shift job for many years and had the same

>problems you are having.  I tried both Ginseng and Ginkgo Biloba.  I got

>nothing from using the ginseng, but the Ginkgo did seem to help.



Ginseng is not the proper remedy for weakened Digestion WITH FOOD

STAGNATION, which is what is being described. It can help, but needs to be

supplemented with herbs and lifestyle conducive to Digestive health.



Of course, much ginseng on the market is garbage. I guess that is fairly

well known. But even good ginseng stands the chance of making such a

pattern WORSE, since like most nourishing herbs, it can be cloying.



Since I recommend changing dietary improprieties before I recommend taking

herbs, I recommend eliminating the coffee, fruit, skipped and delayed

meals, desserts, etc. first. But the addition of the category of herbs

called 'digestives' would be the next step. They include aromatic herbs

like peppermint, but a particularly good combination for many cases of

low-grade Food Stagnation is tealess chai, available as Yogi Tea (original

flavor) just about everywhere. Made without milk or the black tea, chai's

spices are excellent for clearing the Digestion.



>I don't

>think it made my energy level that much higher, but it certainly made me

>more alert.  I found that the Ginkgo worked best if I took it all

>throughout the day in even doses rather than trying to just use it to perk

>myself up as needed.



Well, now you know that gingko is a STIMULANT, so you may want to redress

this choice.



>*What* I ate at lunch also also effected my energy level.  It became very

>evident that sugary stuff and also high-fat foods made me feel logy (in

>the case of sugar) and just *blah* (in the case of fats) so I try to

>drastically limit these foods.  Chicken, rice, pasta, veggies, fish, and

>the occasional fruit-at-the-bottom yogurt is what I mainly take to work

>now.  Very rarely do I get tired out like I used to.

>

>Cheers!



The fruit-at-the-bottom yogurt is NOT a healthy food for any kind of

regular consumption. I have observed the consumption of these little bombs

of Sweet, Damp goo go off in several clients' faces, so to speak. If you

seek calcium from a dairy source, you are better off with lowfat cottage

cheese. And sweetened yogurt, btw, almost never has any living culture in

it.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 15:42:57 -0300

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ruben Esteban Rubio <ruben@SICOAR.COM>

Subject:      Garcinia Cambogia & Gymnema Sylvestris



I need information about the interaction of Garcinia G. and Gymnena S.,

over the fat reduction and diabethes regutation, and its mecanism.

Tanks.

___________________

Ruben Esteban Rubio

Buenos Aires, Argentina

___________________



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:13:31 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         ANNA LOUISE FLETCHER <BRIANNA@INFOAVE.NET>

Subject:      green tea



Anne Knox wrote:

<snip>

Tea contains small quantities of tannic compounds technically called

polyphenols (not tannic acid used in tanning leather),....



At risk of sounding ignorant, I thought the tannic acid in tea was one

and the same as the substance used to tan leathers.  In fact, when I was

breastfeeding my children (they were both 9 lbs and aggressive feeders) I

had sore nipples. My mother, who had 7 children, told me to put cooled

tea bags on them to 'toughen' the area.  It worked like a charm and I

always assumed it was the tannic acid. Can you give me more information

about the tannic compounds you mention? Thanks.

Anna F.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 16 Sep 1996 21:35:17 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Walter Semerenko <walter@ORLINTER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc



> From: Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>



> Of course, much ginseng on the market is garbage. I guess that is fairly

> well known. But even good ginseng stands the chance of making such a

> pattern WORSE, since like most nourishing herbs, it can be cloying.



No, I didn't know that that was well-known.  In fact, I heard (read) the

opposite.   Ginseng does make people feel more energetic.



> Since I recommend changing dietary improprieties before I recommend

taking

> herbs, I recommend eliminating the coffee, fruit, skipped and delayed

> meals, desserts, etc. first. But the addition of the category of herbs

> called 'digestives' would be the next step. They include aromatic herbs

> like peppermint, but a particularly good combination for many cases of

> low-grade Food Stagnation is tealess chai, available as Yogi Tea

(original

> flavor) just about everywhere. Made without milk or the black tea, chai's

> spices are excellent for clearing the Digestion.



And all this helps one to gain energy?



> >I don't

> >think it made my energy level that much higher, but it certainly made me

> >more alert.  I found that the Ginkgo worked best if I took it all

> >throughout the day in even doses rather than trying to just use it to

perk

> >myself up as needed.

>

> Well, now you know that gingko is a STIMULANT, so you may want to redress

> this choice.



I don't see this person *needing* to redress this choice.  She/he was

giving me an personal experience on the uses of this herb.   That is what I

wanted to find out.



Walter.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:01:45 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Kathie Russell <Kattorney@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc



Walter,



What type of foods do you eat for lunch?  This isn't necessarily herb

related, but, if you eat a lot, especially a lot of fried food or food that

is high in fat, it will make you feel sleepy afterwards.  For a few days, try

to eat a light lunch which is low in fat...some sort of rice and bean dish

works well for me, or perhaps some pasta...watch out that the sauce isn't

full of fat.  I used to have this problem, I was falling asleep at my desk

every afternoon.  Ever since I modified my lunchtime eating habits, I don't

have the problem any more.  Another suggestion would be, instead of eating

lunch, to eat several light snacks throughout the afternoon.  Good luck!



Kathie



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:12:38 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         ROBERT YELLON STIBRAVY <rys@UCLA.EDU>

Subject:      Zoo chemicals (fwd)



Dear All:

        The following message was posted to another listserv I belong to.

Does anyone have any insight about this? I didn't want to reply since my

knowledge of the Chinese herbal medicine system is still in its infancy.

I will post any relevant replies to the original list.



thanx!

rob





---------- Forwarded message ----------

A physician friend of mine related the following to me:



One of his patients self medicated for depression with a Chinese

herbal remedy (supposedly) containing crushed deer antler.



The patient subsequently had 2 MI's and died.



The family would like to know:



Is there a cardioactive compound in deer antler that caused this?

and more importantly, if some lab could analyze the material for such

active prinicples..or contaminant toxins.(I don't know how much is

available...)



To me it seems like a job for the Medical Examiner and Forensics

people, but just in case any of the Natural Products folks out there

might have info, or be interested in undertaking a small research

project. Please let me know. I'll get more details if there is any

interest.



Thanks in advance!



Bob



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:13:37 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: green tea

In-Reply-To:  <323F76EB.55ED@InfoAve.Net>



>Anne Knox wrote:

><snip>

>Tea contains small quantities of tannic compounds technically called

>polyphenols (not tannic acid used in tanning leather),....

>

>At risk of sounding ignorant, I thought the tannic acid in tea was one

>and the same as the substance used to tan leathers.



Tea actually does not contain tannin. Previously, chemists considered a

whole CLASS of chemicals 'tannins,' but that was because they were

astringent substances that chemically resemble tannic acid---NOT that they

contained tannic acid. They are now properly called polyphenols, as pointed

out in the article.



>In fact, when I was

>breastfeeding my children (they were both 9 lbs and aggressive feeders) I

>had sore nipples. My mother, who had 7 children, told me to put cooled

>tea bags on them to 'toughen' the area.  It worked like a charm and I

>always assumed it was the tannic acid. Can you give me more information

>about the tannic compounds you mention? Thanks.

>Anna F.



The polyphenols are astringent, but just about any astringent herb would do

this same magic trick.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 20:04:33 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Joco Cardoso <rodas@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: No MIME, PLEASE!!!



The perfect solution is the delete key!!! ...And get some real Email

software...

@@@@@@@@@@@@                    Adeus!                       @@@@@@@@@@@@





On Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:15:12 -0400 Cindy Lee <CindyLee@MINDSPRING.COM>

writes:

>Shea wrote:

>"No, all you have to do is check a box."

>

>There are 2 places to turn this off. In the address book and under

>services. In addition when you hit reply or reply all sometimes it

>will

>automatically be checked (even though it's off in both of the other

>places). By clicking on the TO name you can check and then turn it off

>(be

>sure to hit apply).

>

>As you can see it's a tad more complicated than just checking a box.

>Also,

>it is not covered in the instructions as it's assumed you will be

>using MS

>as an inter-office or MS user to MS user function in which case you

>have no

>problems. The only time I've had trouble is going thru list servers

>that

>interpreted this info (format instructs to receiving party) as an

>attachment.

>

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>><>  <><

>     |_

>    \__/

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>Smiles,

>Cindy Lee

>Zone 8

>cindylee@mindspring.com

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> A rose by any other name would likely be

>   "deadly thorn-bearing assault vegetation."

> (Robert Bullock)

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 01:05:56 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Walter Semerenko <walter@ORLINTER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc



> From: Kathie Russell <Kattorney@AOL.COM>



> What type of foods do you eat for lunch?  This isn't necessarily herb

> related, but, if you eat a lot, especially a lot of fried food or food

that

> is high in fat, it will make you feel sleepy afterwards.



Yeah, I eat most of the time at the cafeteria and I usually get a slice of

pizza, or something high in fat.  Also, I do get something sweet

afterwards.  As several people have mentioned to cut sweets...I even talked

to one of my co-workers who said the same thing.  I eat breakfast which

doesn't affect me, but when lunch comes around..oh boy..I feel like taking

a huge nap.



> For a few days, try

> to eat a light lunch which is low in fat...some sort of rice and bean

dish

> works well for me, or perhaps some pasta...watch out that the sauce isn't

> full of fat.  I used to have this problem, I was falling asleep at my

desk

> every afternoon.  Ever since I modified my lunchtime eating habits, I

don't

> have the problem any more.  Another suggestion would be, instead of

eating

> lunch, to eat several light snacks throughout the afternoon.  Good luck!



Thanks for the advice!



> Kathie



Walter.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:03:29 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Anita Hales <hales1@KTN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Introduction



At 08:49 AM 9/16/96 -0400, bill jackson wrote:

>Hello all,

>I would like to introduce myself, my name is Gerri Jackson and I live in

>High Point, NC, USA. I am married and have 3 kids. I have recently begun to

>study (at home, thru books) medicinal herbs. I started soapmaking, which got

>me interested in Aromatherapy, which brought me to where I am now. I find

>herbalism truly fascinating and I would like to learn all I can. We are

>semi-homesteaders and I believe learning to heal myself and my family falls

>into that catagory. I also have a great mistrust of aggressive medicine. Two

>examples are: My daughter (14mos at the time, 23mos now) was given a shot of

>Depot Meydrol (sp?) in her left leg above the knee. We were told she had

>asthma (she didn't) the shot was totally unnecessary, leaving her leg

>deformed. Apparently, the shot destroys the fat and possibly some muscle. It

>does not cause her any pain, and she walks perfect. I called several

>hospitals (Duke University was hesitant to speak to us) and everyone said

>the same thing. We were told that it may grow back, it may not. She may need

>surgery when she is older to repair her leg.

>

>My son was being treated for asthma thru the county health dept. We were

>told he had no allergies and he was getting proper treatment. I took him to

>a specialist and had several test done because it seemed as though he was

>getting worse. Come to find out he was allergic to several things.

>

>I have several questions, sorry this is so long.

>

>1. Is there anything I can do to help bring my daughters leg back to normal?



Sounds like a job for acupuncture.  You may try a mullein compress.





>

>2. My grandmother has arthritis and I would like to make something to ease

>her pain, such as a lotion, massage oil. I was told Rosemary, but she has

>High Blood Pressure.



Where is the pain? and what type of arthritis?



>

>3. I also have a 3mo old son who has thrush. I was going to treat him with

>aromatherapy, but am interested in herbs to try. He is breastfed so I am

>also affected.



Tincture of Gentian is great and can be purchased from some drug stores.

You may also make an infusion of Goldthread (Coptis spp.) and either drink

it yourself and/or apply it in the mouth of the child.  He need not swallow

it but it would be beneficial.  A few drops at a time often.



>

>4. My 3mo old also has a little bit of cradle cap, any ideas?



Plain old Johnson's baby cream applied to the head and comb with a fine

comb. It worked for me with 5 children.



>

>5. I am interested in any books that are good for a beginner, something easy

>to read, not too technical. I have one book I love called "The New Age

>Herbalist".

>

>6. I have called several schools regarding home courses. Are there any

>schools I should look out for? Any that are excellent?

Dominion Herbal College in Burnaby, BC, Canada.  The oldest in North America

(75 years)  Has a Thomsonian bent with a dose of Russian herbology.

>

>Well, that's all I can think of for now, forgive the length, I wanted to get

>it all in at one time. All info and ideas will truly be appreciated.

>Thank you,

>Gerri Jackson

>jackson@nr.infi.net

>

>

***********************************************************

* Wild Strawberries:  "...water distilled from the        *

* berries is good for the passions of the heart caused by *

* perterbation of the spirit."                            *



*    John Parkinson, 1640                                 *

*_________________________________________________________*

*Anita Hales, hales1@alaska.ktn.net                       *

***********************************************************



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:29:55 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Anita Hales <hales1@KTN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc



At 12:53 PM 9/16/96 -0400, Walter Semerenko wrote:

>Hi,

>

>I work a part time job in front of a computer screen.  When lunchtime comes

>around, a half an hour later, my energy level goes down to the dumps.



It is perfectly normal to feel a little less energetic after a meal.  Your

body is working hard at digesting your lunch.  I don't know of any way to

circumvent what is a natural process of the body. You might have your blood

sugar checked.  You may be hypoglycaemic.  Try avoiding all sugar for a week

or so including fruits and see if it helps your energy level.

***********************************************************

* Wild Strawberries:  "...water distilled from the        *

* berries is good for the passions of the heart caused by *

* perterbation of the spirit."                            *



*    John Parkinson, 1640                                 *

*_________________________________________________________*

*Anita Hales, hales1@alaska.ktn.net                       *

***********************************************************



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 23:40:45 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <960917220145_311134519@emout01.mail.aol.com>



>Walter,

>

>What type of foods do you eat for lunch?  This isn't necessarily herb

>related, but, if you eat a lot, especially a lot of fried food or food that

>is high in fat, it will make you feel sleepy afterwards.  For a few days, try

>to eat a light lunch which is low in fat...some sort of rice and bean dish

>works well for me, or perhaps some pasta...watch out that the sauce isn't

>full of fat.  I used to have this problem, I was falling asleep at my desk

>every afternoon.  Ever since I modified my lunchtime eating habits, I don't

>have the problem any more.  Another suggestion would be, instead of eating

>lunch, to eat several light snacks throughout the afternoon.  Good luck!

>

>Kathie



Coffee, coffee, coffee. Lunchtime tiredness is associated with two focuses:

lunch comes at the END of the Digestive Qi highpoint of the day (which is

the primary reason why breakfast is an important meal); and it comes at the

time of the Heart Qi...which means that how you feel at noon is very much

how your spirit is feeling. If you become tired at noon, then it is likely

that your life is leaving you behind. And coffee is the usual insult that

is causing that to be so.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 17 Sep 1996 23:37:20 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <20960918013228312.AAA166@prefferc>



>> From: Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

>

>> Of course, much ginseng on the market is garbage. I guess that is fairly

>> well known. But even good ginseng stands the chance of making such a

>> pattern WORSE, since like most nourishing herbs, it can be cloying.

>

>No, I didn't know that that was well-known.  In fact, I heard (read) the

>opposite.   Ginseng does make people feel more energetic.



Then you will have to explain why it is central to several insomnia formulas!



>> Since I recommend changing dietary improprieties before I recommend

>taking

>> herbs, I recommend eliminating the coffee, fruit, skipped and delayed

>> meals, desserts, etc. first. But the addition of the category of herbs

>> called 'digestives' would be the next step. They include aromatic herbs

>> like peppermint, but a particularly good combination for many cases of

>> low-grade Food Stagnation is tealess chai, available as Yogi Tea

>(original

>> flavor) just about everywhere. Made without milk or the black tea, chai's

>> spices are excellent for clearing the Digestion.

>

>And all this helps one to gain energy?



If a person complains of an energy deficit AFTER eating, then yes,

dispersing the dietary stagnation will allow the Yang Qi to flow again

(provided that the Digestive Qi itself is not excessively hampered by, say,

fruit; and that the Digestive Qi is not chronically depressed, in someone,

for instance, who skips or delays meals).



They don't 'gain' energy...they are RESTORED to a naturally energetic state.



>> >I don't

>> >think it made my energy level that much higher, but it certainly made me

>> >more alert.  I found that the Ginkgo worked best if I took it all

>> >throughout the day in even doses rather than trying to just use it to

>perk

>> >myself up as needed.

>>

>> Well, now you know that gingko is a STIMULANT, so you may want to redress

>> this choice.

>

>I don't see this person *needing* to redress this choice.  She/he was

>giving me an personal experience on the uses of this herb.   That is what I

>wanted to find out.

>

>Walter.



I didn't say 'need'---you did. I said may want to, since reliance on

stimulants is not equivalent to good health, and is usually the precursor

to bad.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 00:00:22 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Zoo chemicals (fwd)

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.3.89.9609171915.D54896-0100000@tau.ben2.ucla.edu>



>Dear All:

>        The following message was posted to another listserv I belong to.

>Does anyone have any insight about this? I didn't want to reply since my

>knowledge of the Chinese herbal medicine system is still in its infancy.

>I will post any relevant replies to the original list.

>

>thanx!

>rob

>

>

>---------- Forwarded message ----------

>A physician friend of mine related the following to me:

>

>One of his patients self medicated for depression with a Chinese

>herbal remedy (supposedly) containing crushed deer antler.

>

>The patient subsequently had 2 MI's and died.



Coincidence, or a result from coincident psychiatric drug use or other

factor. It is very highly unlikely that deer antler is the cause of this

unfortunate death.



>The family would like to know:

>

>Is there a cardioactive compound in deer antler that caused this?



Not per se, no. There is nothing in deer antler that is harmful to the heart.



>and more importantly, if some lab could analyze the material for such

>active prinicples..or contaminant toxins.(I don't know how much is

>available...)



Contaminants are VERY unlikely. The active ingredient of antler is well

known...it is called pantocrinum, and it is a fairly safe chemical,

although it is a steroidal structure. NONETHELESS IT HAS *NO* SEX HORMONE

EFFECTS. Other ingredients are cholesterol, proteolipids, calcium phosphate

and carbonate, and some others.



Given orally to persons with depressed blood pressure, it increases it.

Very large doses (such as were certainly not taken by this person) lower

blood pressure. It increases cardiac output in persons with weak hearts in

moderate doses. NONE OF THESE EFFECTS IS LIKELY TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH AN MI

(myocardial infarction).



Pantocrinum is an 'adaptogen': it increase work capacity, improves quality

of sleep and appetite, and decreases the rate of muscle fatigue. As such,

it is far more likely to help prevent MI, than cause it. It also catalyzes

the production of RBC, markedly. In addition, this material increases wound

healing, and speeds healing of bone fractures (which isn't surprising given

that antler is the fastest growing bone in nature). In addition, it is

diuretic, and desensitizes to certain antigens. (Bensky)



It should be noted that antler IS *bone*, unlike horn, which is similar to

fingernail.



>To me it seems like a job for the Medical Examiner and Forensics

>people, but just in case any of the Natural Products folks out there

>might have info, or be interested in undertaking a small research

>project. Please let me know. I'll get more details if there is any

>interest.

>

>Thanks in advance!

>

>Bob



The person who wrote this suffers from a serious lack of appreciation for

the depth of chemical assay and lab study of Chinese herbals in common use.

Literally hundreds, and probably thousands, of studies have been done on

deer antler. To suggest that it is an area of ignorance is itself ignorance.



You may feel free to forward this to the originating party. Note that I am

not endorsing self-prescription with Chinese herbal products, especially by

persons with preexisting serious illness.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 00:11:07 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960918062955.006723f8@alaska.ktn.net>



>It is perfectly normal to feel a little less energetic after a meal.  Your

>body is working hard at digesting your lunch.



No, Anita, I'm afraid that while feeling tired after eating may be

*common*, it is far from appropriate, and persons in good health do not

experience this at all.



In this person's case, it is most likely due to the desserts being eaten.

Such dessert eating is deadly to your Digestion. Of course, persons with

weak Digestion to begin with (whether constitutional or due to sweet eating

or fruit eating or whatever) will naturally crave sweets after meals. THEY

MUST NOT GIVE IN TO THESE CRAVINGS, but rather walk off their cravings and

learn to eat better.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:10:20 PST

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Robert D. Kelsey" <bobkelsey@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Essiac Info from MettaSong



Hi Folks,



Unfortunately I deleted the original message  :-(



Someone was looking for info from Grandma Mettasong for Essiac. I now

have the file and will send it to whoever wanted/wants it.



Please send me your e-mail address to the address below. In the Subject

put Essiac File.



Thanks,



BK in CT

bobkelsey@juno.com



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:20:59 PST

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Robert D. Kelsey" <bobkelsey@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Sleepy after eating



On Mon, 16 Sep 1996 12:53:09 -0400 Walter Semerenko <walter@ORLINTER.COM>

writes:

>Hi,

>

>I work a part time job in front of a computer screen.  When lunchtime

comes

>around, a half an hour later, my energy level goes down to the dumps.

..................<snip>.....................



Hi,



I don't have experience with the Herbs you mention, but I frequently find

that I get very sleepy after eating. Especially if I eat a good meal. I

consider it normal.



BK in CT

bobkelsey@juno.com



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:47:52 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         ANNA LOUISE FLETCHER <BRIANNA@INFOAVE.NET>

Subject:      Chinese High Mallow



Paul, I'm hoping that you can help me here.  My younger sister, who is a

model and always trying strange diets against my advice, brought me this

box of 'Chinese diet tea'. The only ingredient listed was Chinese High

Mallow. This substance had a violent effect on her lower bowels, causing

severe diarrhea and the associated cramping. She said she could not keep

any food in her body for more than 15 minutes and the effects lasted for

more than a day after she stopped drinking it. I cannot find any

reference to this substance. None of the references to mallow (Malva

sylvestris nor Althea officinalis) that I have seen imply that these

herbs are capable of such effects.  What is this stuff?

Thanks,

Anna F.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:43:20 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Chinese High Mallow

In-Reply-To:  <324043D8.2B9B@InfoAve.Net>



>Paul, I'm hoping that you can help me here.  My younger sister, who is a

>model and always trying strange diets against my advice, brought me this

>box of 'Chinese diet tea'. The only ingredient listed was Chinese High

>Mallow. This substance had a violent effect on her lower bowels, causing

>severe diarrhea and the associated cramping. She said she could not keep

>any food in her body for more than 15 minutes and the effects lasted for

>more than a day after she stopped drinking it. I cannot find any

>reference to this substance. None of the references to mallow (Malva

>sylvestris nor Althea officinalis) that I have seen imply that these

>herbs are capable of such effects.  What is this stuff?

>Thanks,

>Anna F.



All the mallows have this potential. DON'T TAKE CHINESE DIETERS TEA.



I hope that is clear enough. Laxatives, stimulants, and diuretics, just

like the worst of the Western diet aids.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:57:12 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Sleepy after eating

In-Reply-To:  <19960918.113057.4759.1.bobkelsey@juno.com>



>I don't have experience with the Herbs you mention, but I frequently find

>that I get very sleepy after eating. Especially if I eat a good meal. I

>consider it normal.

>

>BK in CT



In a society like this, dying from self-inflicted lung cancer is 'normal.'



Normal ain't nothing but an expectation developed in a near vacuum of real

conception about what is ORDINARY human health.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:47:40 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <v03007814ae64dfcbd15c@[206.138.116.122]>



On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:



> >I've worked a 10 hour swing shift job for many years and had the same

> >problems you are having.  I tried both Ginseng and Ginkgo Biloba.  I got

> >nothing from using the ginseng, but the Ginkgo did seem to help.

>

> Ginseng is not the proper remedy for weakened Digestion WITH FOOD

> STAGNATION, which is what is being described. It can help, but needs to be

> supplemented with herbs and lifestyle conducive to Digestive health.



Fine, except that I wasn't suggesting that Ginseng was the proper remedy

for anything.  The original poster (Walter) mentioned it so I mentioned I

had tried it as well, and it didn't really do much.



>

> >I don't

> >think it made my energy level that much higher, but it certainly made me

> >more alert.  I found that the Ginkgo worked best if I took it all

> >throughout the day in even doses rather than trying to just use it to perk

> >myself up as needed.

>

> Well, now you know that gingko is a STIMULANT, so you may want to redress

> this choice.



May want to, but don't.  What do you mean '*now* that you know'?

Obviously if it is making me more alert is having a stimulating effect.

All I meant to say was that I liked using ginkgo because it actually

seems to make me more alert, rather than merely jittery as I get with

sizable amounts of caffeine.  To gat back to the point, however.

I cannot see removing something from my life that

makes me feel better and perform better.  While it would ceertainly be

nice to live in a situation that didn't require me to require a tedious

job for 10 hours day in order to have the money to provide for myself,

sadly I do not.



You indicated that a 'reliance' on stimulants does not indicate good

health and that other problems could occur later.  This could very well be

true.  However, I could also eat a piece of tainted chicken breast and die

shortly thereafter.  The point is that I won't worry about it.  I know

hundreds of old people who have drank coffee all their lives with no ill

effects.  My 'reliance on stimulants' may not indicate good health, but my

blood pressure of 122/67, perfect cholesterol level, healthy teeth and

gums, clear skin, full head of bushy hair, very low bodyfat, and the fact

that I haven't got sick in about 3 years certainly do.



>

> >*What* I ate at lunch also also effected my energy level.  It became very

> >evident that sugary stuff and also high-fat foods made me feel logy (in

> >the case of sugar) and just *blah* (in the case of fats) so I try to

> >drastically limit these foods.  Chicken, rice, pasta, veggies, fish, and

> >the occasional fruit-at-the-bottom yogurt is what I mainly take to work

> >now.  Very rarely do I get tired out like I used to.

> >

> >Cheers!

>

> The fruit-at-the-bottom yogurt is NOT a healthy food for any kind of

> regular consumption. I have observed the consumption of these little bombs

> of Sweet, Damp goo go off in several clients' faces, so to speak. If you

> seek calcium from a dairy source, you are better off with lowfat cottage

> cheese. And sweetened yogurt, btw, almost never has any living culture in

> it.



Here again.  I didn't indicate I regularly consume yogurt.  I eat it

occasionally to satisfy my 'sweet tooth'.  I think a 6 oz carton of

Yogurt, weighing in at 70 calories, with no fat, and no sugar (sweetened

with Aspartame) is a healthier way to satisfy that sweet tooth than, say,

a candy bar or  a brownie.  I don't eat yogurt for the calcium it

provides, I eat it for the taste.  Eating lowfat cottage cheese, in

general terms, is probably a better choice than LOTS of foods I can think

of, except that a) it tastes gross and b)it doesn't satisfy the sweet

tooth in that it isn't sweet.  I'd take a calcium supplement in pill form

before I ate that curdled white glop.  (Apologies to the cottage cheese

lovers, but I am a firm believer that we eat with our eyes as well as our

mouths, and it looks hideous.)



>

> Paul

>





-C

___                                                ___

|_|___                              _______________|_|

|_||_|       The Elements           |_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_|______________________________|_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_|Ah, love. The walks over soft grass, the smiles |_|

|_|over candlelight, the arguments over just about |_|

|_|everything else.  |_||_||_| -Max Headroom |_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_|

      __________________________________________

      |_|cbendix@nunic.nu.edu |_||_||_||_||_||_|

      |_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:33:52 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.92.960918104041.17839A-100000@nunic.nu.edu>



>On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:

>

>> >I've worked a 10 hour swing shift job for many years and had the same

>> >problems you are having.  I tried both Ginseng and Ginkgo Biloba.  I got

>> >nothing from using the ginseng, but the Ginkgo did seem to help.

>>

>> Ginseng is not the proper remedy for weakened Digestion WITH FOOD

>> STAGNATION, which is what is being described. It can help, but needs to be

>> supplemented with herbs and lifestyle conducive to Digestive health.

>

>Fine, except that I wasn't suggesting that Ginseng was the proper remedy

>for anything.  The original poster (Walter) mentioned it so I mentioned I

>had tried it as well, and it didn't really do much.



Because it was either crappy ginseng, or the wrong herb for the job. If you

have to work 10 hour shifts, you are looking for a CNS stimulant. Ginseng

is not that.



>Obviously if it is making me more alert is having a stimulating effect.



No, that is not obvious, but it is certainly a possibility. Recall that

this thread was not about stimulating yourself so you can remain alert on a

long, grueling work day. It was about a dysfunction that was disturbing the

ordinary functioning of a person midday.



>All I meant to say was that I liked using ginkgo because it actually

>seems to make me more alert, rather than merely jittery as I get with

>sizable amounts of caffeine.  To gat back to the point, however.

>I cannot see removing something from my life that

>makes me feel better and perform better.  While it would ceertainly be

>nice to live in a situation that didn't require me to require a tedious

>job for 10 hours day in order to have the money to provide for myself,

>sadly I do not.



People make all sorts of choices in their lives. And the prevalence of

legal drugs to help them do so is evidence that many share your view. As

are, also, the disease statistics, unfortunately.



>You indicated that a 'reliance' on stimulants does not indicate good

>health and that other problems could occur later.  This could very well be

>true.  However, I could also eat a piece of tainted chicken breast and die

>shortly thereafter.  The point is that I won't worry about it.  I know

>hundreds of old people who have drank coffee all their lives with no ill

>effects.



No, you have no way of assessing the damage that practice did to their

spirits, since they are modified by the behavior. This is the game that

moves as you play. Only by examining the ILL can you understand what may

have been lost by the apparently still well.



>My 'reliance on stimulants' may not indicate good health, but my

>blood pressure of 122/67, perfect cholesterol level, healthy teeth and

>gums, clear skin, full head of bushy hair, very low bodyfat, and the fact

>that I haven't got sick in about 3 years certainly do.



So they say. Not getting sick is not necessarily a sign of being well. It

is probably a sign of being a Yang constitution person, in which case what

need do you have for herbs anyhow? Just take your stimulants as needed, and

mazel tov.



>> The fruit-at-the-bottom yogurt is NOT a healthy food for any kind of

>> regular consumption. I have observed the consumption of these little bombs

>> of Sweet, Damp goo go off in several clients' faces, so to speak. If you

>> seek calcium from a dairy source, you are better off with lowfat cottage

>> cheese. And sweetened yogurt, btw, almost never has any living culture in

>> it.

>

>Here again.  I didn't indicate I regularly consume yogurt.  I eat it

>occasionally to satisfy my 'sweet tooth'.



I criticized it not for your benefit, but for the list. I am well aware

that Yang constitution people can shoot themselves in the head night after

night and still function. They don't, however, enjoy the finepoints of

spirit...they are generally too busy with their lives.



>I think a 6 oz carton of

>Yogurt, weighing in at 70 calories, with no fat, and no sugar (sweetened

>with Aspartame) is a healthier way to satisfy that sweet tooth than, say,

>a candy bar or  a brownie.



Well, that thinking is wrong. Aspartame is a poison.



In any case, suit yourself. I will continue to reply for the list's

benefit, so your mistakes and lack of consequences don't hurt others who do

not share your rugged constitution.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:32:14 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: Sleepy after eating



>In a society like this, dying from self-inflicted lung cancer is 'normal.'

>Normal ain't nothing but an expectation developed in a near vacuum of real

conception about what is ORDINARY human health.

>Paul



We are attempting to expand our perception of "normal" through learning

about herbs and new lifestyles.  Don't make those of us who do view a

healthy organic life as "normal" sound like "bashers" and "S.O.B"s with

selfrighteous retorts.

Please



Ron



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:45:58 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>



Wasn't this list supposed to focus around herbs?



I'd love to hear about curing and preparation methods for the following:



Scutellaria Incana (Greater Skullcap) (Perhaps you know more about a Desert

Skullcap? Hopefully.  Maybe the genus?)



Pedicularis Groenlandica (Elephants Head)

Pedicularus Racemosa (Parrots Beak)



Sweet Coltsfoot



These are used in smoking blends for various uses.



To Note: I am not looking for the vices of smoking herbs unless you have

direct experience with these specific herbs and can be TACTFUL.

Thanks



Ron



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:55:09 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <v0300780aae665156a452@[206.138.116.195]>



On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:



> >On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:





> Recall that

> this thread was not about stimulating yourself so you can remain alert on a

> long, grueling work day. It was about a dysfunction that was disturbing the

> ordinary functioning of a person midday.



That is how you (perhaps more correctly) interpreteted.  I interpreted it

as 'i've already decided that some sort of stimulant is needed, be it

caffeine, Ginkgo, whatever,, so what experiences does everyone have with

them.'  SInce I had some experience, I shared.



>

> People make all sorts of choices in their lives. And the prevalence of

> legal drugs to help them do so is evidence that many share your view. As

> are, also, the disease statistics, unfortunately.



Probably true.  I've known people who actually go *browse* pharmacies for

stuff they can purchase to fix problems that they hadn't even realized

they had.  Insanity.  Still I don't know that the prevalence of the drugs

is what causes the problem.  The root of the problem is in the lack of

education on the part of the consumer, and their lack of the ability to

see through the brazen attempts of those marketing the products to

convince them they need to take it, either through creating paranoia, or

outright lying and deception.



>

> >I know

> >hundreds of old people who have drank coffee all their lives with no ill

> >effects.

>

> No, you have no way of assessing the damage that practice did to their

> spirits, since they are modified by the behavior. This is the game that

> moves as you play. Only by examining the ILL can you understand what may

> have been lost by the apparently still well.



Theoretically, I can agree with this, but it still strikes me as being

somewhat daffy.  If someone is 'well' ie they feel great, look great, etc.

then what is the POINT of finding out what they MAY have lost and how they

could have felt even better.  If you told any of these people how they

could feel super mega-'well' by just making a few changes, I'm sure most

would just tell you to get lost.



>

> >My 'reliance on stimulants' may not indicate good health, but my

> >blood pressure of 122/67, perfect cholesterol level, healthy teeth and

> >gums, clear skin, full head of bushy hair, very low bodyfat, and the fact

> >that I haven't got sick in about 3 years certainly do.

>

> So they say. Not getting sick is not necessarily a sign of being well.



I think for most people (myself included) one defines the other.  To my

way of thinking, any 'doctor' who would try to convince someone who isn't

sick that any sort

of further treatments/remedies are needed would have to fall into that

same category of swindlers I mentioned in the above paragraph regarding

OTC medications.





> It

> is probably a sign of being a Yang constitution person, in which case what

> need do you have for herbs anyhow? Just take your stimulants as needed, and

> mazel tov.



Ignoring your attempt to dismiss me, I never declared I did have a *need*

for herbs.  Only that I have used Ginkgo and liked the results.



>

> >> The fruit-at-the-bottom yogurt is NOT a healthy food for any kind of

> >> regular consumption. I have observed the consumption of these little bombs

> >> of Sweet, Damp goo go off in several clients' faces, so to speak. If you

> >> seek calcium from a dairy source, you are better off with lowfat cottage

> >> cheese. And sweetened yogurt, btw, almost never has any living culture in

> >> it.

> >

> >Here again.  I didn't indicate I regularly consume yogurt.  I eat it

> >occasionally to satisfy my 'sweet tooth'.

>

> I criticized it not for your benefit, but for the list



I'm quite sure that the list has no more information about why yogurt is

such an unhealthy choice than it did before you made the assertion.  You

mentioned damp goo exploding in people faces and nothing more.  I

naturally assumed since you quoted some of my text and then followed it up

with a recommendation using the word 'you' that the 'you' you referred to

was me.



> I am well aware

> that Yang constitution people can shoot themselves in the head night after

> night and still function.



Hmm.  I'll have to try this.  If it proves to be true, I promise I'll

never dispute another thing you say.  In fact, I'll hunt

down anyone and everyone who calls you egotistical or a big jerk and shoot

THEM in the head as well, just to see how they fare.



> They don't, however, enjoy the finepoints of

> spirit...they are generally too busy with their lives.



???  finepoints of spirit?  You might have me there.  Since I don't know

what 'finepoints of spirit' are it is hard to determine whether I enjoy

them or not.



>

> >I think a 6 oz carton of

> >Yogurt, weighing in at 70 calories, with no fat, and no sugar (sweetened

> >with Aspartame) is a healthier way to satisfy that sweet tooth than, say,

> >a candy bar or  a brownie.

>

> Well, that thinking is wrong. Aspartame is a poison.



So a candy bar filled with fatty chocolate, nuts, caramel, sugar PLUS all

the poisonous chemicals thrown in to preserve it IS indeed healthier than

fat-free fruit-on-the-bottom yogurt.  ha ha ha HAHHHAHAHHAAA.



>

> In any case, suit yourself. I will continue to reply for the list's

> benefit, so your mistakes and lack of consequences don't hurt others who do

> not share your rugged constitution.



Respond all you like.  Wouldn't have it any other way.  I do think you are

seriously underestimating the cognitive powers of the people on this list

however, if you plan to pick nits with each and every thing someone other

than you posts in order to achieve a greater understanding and to assure

that all 'errors' as you see them are corrected.



Personally, I think most people are intelligent enough to realize that

just because something worked for someone, it doesn't mean that it will

work for everyone else.  Also, it doesn't follow logically that relaying

your experiences with a particular herb is in any way a recommendation to

that person that they SHOULD be taking it (unless, of course, they state

that the herb is fantastic and they highly recommend it to anyone who

cares to listen)



>

> Paul

>



-C

___                                                ___

|_|___                              _______________|_|

|_||_|       The Elements           |_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_|______________________________|_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_|Ah, love. The walks over soft grass, the smiles |_|

|_|over candlelight, the arguments over just about |_|

|_|everything else.  |_||_||_| -Max Headroom |_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_|

      __________________________________________

      |_|cbendix@nunic.nu.edu |_||_||_||_||_||_|

      |_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 23:27:43 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Sleepy after eating

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960919043214.00678484@pop.televar.com>



>>In a society like this, dying from self-inflicted lung cancer is 'normal.'

>>Normal ain't nothing but an expectation developed in a near vacuum of real

>conception about what is ORDINARY human health.

>>Paul

>

>We are attempting to expand our perception of "normal" through learning

>about herbs and new lifestyles.  Don't make those of us who do view a

>healthy organic life as "normal" sound like "bashers" and "S.O.B"s with

>selfrighteous retorts.

>Please

>

>Ron



You don't have to take my every post so personally--I can't take the time

to review each of my posts for the possibility that someone will get their

feelings hurt.



My point is that saying that something which is representative of health

imbalance is 'normal' doesn't advance your understanding at all. Women

think, in this country, that PMS is 'normal.' It ISN'T. You shouldn't

experience ANY particular discomfort with a period. Just so, feeling tired

after meals is a sign that something is WRONG. Correct your lifestyle, and

return to health, which is fairly well defined as the state in which life

is NOT experienced AS anything.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 23:32:16 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Howie Brounstein <howieb@TELEPORT.COM>

Subject:      Put this in your pipe and smoke it.



At 09:45 PM 9/18/96 -0700, you wrote:

>Wasn't this list supposed to focus around herbs?

>

>I'd love to hear about curing and preparation methods for the following:

>

>Scutellaria Incana (Greater Skullcap) (Perhaps you know more about a Desert

>Skullcap? Hopefully.  Maybe the genus?)

>



Desert scullcap Scutellaria nana



>Pedicularis Groenlandica (Elephants Head)

>Pedicularus Racemosa (Parrots Beak)

>

>Sweet Coltsfoot

>

>These are used in smoking blends for various uses.

>

>To Note: I am not looking for the vices of smoking herbs unless you have

>direct experience with these specific herbs and can be TACTFUL.

>Thanks

>

>Ron

>

>

Ron,



The answer to these questions, including direct personal experience can be

found in the Herbal Smoking Mixtures booklet avaible through my homepage

below. Or you can email me direct (NOT ON THE LIST!!!!) and I'll email you a

copy.



Howie Brounstein

howieb@teleport.com

http://www.teleport.com/~howieb/howie.html



"It's easy to harvest wild plants, the hard part is not harvesting."



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:09:38 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU>

Subject:      Really and truly possibly quite sorry



I just realized that a few of the messages I thought I was sending as

private email to Paul have been sent to the list as a whole.  I plead complete

stupidity.  I'm neither new to the net (been haunting the internet since

about 1989) nor unfamiliar with email.  I am using a fairly new mail

program, however (Yeah, that's the ticket!).



Upon rereading my correspondence for the evening, there is nothing in the

messages that I am upset everyone heard, but fear they have veered

sometimes quite drastically from the original subject.  The issues I was

attempting to engage Paul in conversation about (The exact nature of

'wellness', attempting to fix things that aren't broken, etc.) while

probably not completely taboo to the list, do have their own place and

time.



For my faux pas, I am really and truly possibly quite sorry.



___                                                ___

|_|___                              _______________|_|

|_||_|       The Elements           |_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_|______________________________|_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_|Ah, love. The walks over soft grass, the smiles |_|

|_|over candlelight, the arguments over just about |_|

|_|everything else.  |_||_||_| -Max Headroom |_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_|

      __________________________________________

      |_|cbendix@nunic.nu.edu |_||_||_||_||_||_|

      |_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 23:51:01 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.92.960918191536.9247A-100000@nunic.nu.edu>



>On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:

>

>> >On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:

>

>

>> Recall that

>> this thread was not about stimulating yourself so you can remain alert on a

>> long, grueling work day. It was about a dysfunction that was disturbing the

>> ordinary functioning of a person midday.

>

>That is how you (perhaps more correctly) interpreteted.  I interpreted it

>as 'i've already decided that some sort of stimulant is needed, be it

>caffeine, Ginkgo, whatever,, so what experiences does everyone have with

>them.'  Since I had some experience, I shared.



To the degree that you have corrected the impression that ginseng is a

STIMULANT, then I suppose this has served a purpose.



>> People make all sorts of choices in their lives. And the prevalence of

>> legal drugs to help them do so is evidence that many share your view. As

>> are, also, the disease statistics, unfortunately.

>

>Probably true.  I've known people who actually go *browse* pharmacies for

>stuff they can purchase to fix problems that they hadn't even realized

>they had.  Insanity.  Still I don't know that the prevalence of the drugs

>is what causes the problem.  The root of the problem is in the lack of

>education on the part of the consumer, and their lack of the ability to

>see through the brazen attempts of those marketing the products to

>convince them they need to take it, either through creating paranoia, or

>outright lying and deception.



Well, I think the consumers are getting just what they deserve and are even

after. I don't put all the blame on corporations. People can't be bothered

to seek out the fullness of their lives because they are too busy with

ambitions. That can't merely be a result (of marketing, etc.)...it is a

cause.



>> >I know

>> >hundreds of old people who have drank coffee all their lives with no ill

>> >effects.

>>

>> No, you have no way of assessing the damage that practice did to their

>> spirits, since they are modified by the behavior. This is the game that

>> moves as you play. Only by examining the ILL can you understand what may

>> have been lost by the apparently still well.

>

>Theoretically, I can agree with this, but it still strikes me as being

>somewhat daffy.  If someone is 'well' ie they feel great, look great, etc.

>then what is the POINT of finding out what they MAY have lost and how they

>could have felt even better.  If you told any of these people how they

>could feel super mega-'well' by just making a few changes, I'm sure most

>would just tell you to get lost.



The point is that a healer such as myself can TELL where their health is

corroding, but they aren't interested, and won't do anything about it

because they 'feel great.' I have one client whose husband gets up to go to

the bathroom several times a night. I corrected this with the appropriate

formula, and we did some bodywork, but when it comes down to practice, he

takes the formula only when he is getting up MANY times a night, and then

only for a day or two.



At that rate, his prostate will eventually become diseased in a way that

*MAY* end his life. And he could prevent that, by taking the herbs until

the pattern was corrected. But he won't---mainly because he has a

Yang-constitution, and therefore 'feels fine,' even though his body is

giving him VERY GOOD INDICATIONS, to the trained eye AND to him, that his

Bladder is full of Heat.



So an Organ level disharmony doesn't necessarily make a person NOT feel

great. But it isn't equivalent to health, either.



>> >My 'reliance on stimulants' may not indicate good health, but my

>> >blood pressure of 122/67, perfect cholesterol level, healthy teeth and

>> >gums, clear skin, full head of bushy hair, very low bodyfat, and the fact

>> >that I haven't got sick in about 3 years certainly do.

>>

>> So they say. Not getting sick is not necessarily a sign of being well.

>

>I think for most people (myself included) one defines the other.  To my

>way of thinking, any 'doctor' who would try to convince someone who isn't

>sick that any sort

>of further treatments/remedies are needed would have to fall into that

>same category of swindlers I mentioned in the above paragraph regarding

>OTC medications.



Well, that would describe the practice of DOCTORS, or technicians you hire

after the fact of falling ill. A HEALER, on the other hand, has a broader

mission. We alert people to transformative changes BEFORE they become

illness, and before the 'stative fields' in the person's life (say, their

emotional health, or spirit outlook) is altered by them---even if the

person is unaware of those impending changes, or the risk those changes

entail. They don't wait until the illness erupts to lay awareness.



In this regard, it can be fairly said that healers understand health and

illness better than their clients. They have a comprehensive model of human

existence, and argue for the wellbeing of the entire person, not just for

their outsides and superficial feelings of wellbeing.



With you, I would ask you if you think that stimulants and a lifestyle that

require them are the best way for you to live. And I have asked that, and

you have answered. At that point, I would fall silent if not for the others

listening in, who might benefit from this discussion.



I have no need to treat the (in their own belief) 'well.'



>> It

>> is probably a sign of being a Yang constitution person, in which case what

>> need do you have for herbs anyhow? Just take your stimulants as needed, and

>> mazel tov.

>

>Ignoring your attempt to dismiss me, I never declared I did have a *need*

>for herbs.  Only that I have used Ginkgo and liked the results.



You have dismissed yourself! I am simply pointing out that this sort of

choice, this sort of shallow consideration of these choices is the hallmark

of what can be called the Yang constitution. FYI.



>> >> The fruit-at-the-bottom yogurt is NOT a healthy food for any kind of

>> >> regular consumption. I have observed the consumption of these little

>>bombs

>> >> of Sweet, Damp goo go off in several clients' faces, so to speak. If you

>> >> seek calcium from a dairy source, you are better off with lowfat cottage

>> >> cheese. And sweetened yogurt, btw, almost never has any living culture in

>> >> it.

>> >

>> >Here again.  I didn't indicate I regularly consume yogurt.  I eat it

>> >occasionally to satisfy my 'sweet tooth'.

>>

>> I criticized it not for your benefit, but for the list

>

>I'm quite sure that the list has no more information about why yogurt is

>such an unhealthy choice than it did before you made the assertion.  You

>mentioned damp goo exploding in people faces and nothing more.



For those who have been here for awhile, this was probably descriptive

enough. They hopefully recall that Dampness is a factor in diet that

interferes with the Digestive Qi.



>I

>naturally assumed since you quoted some of my text and then followed it up

>with a recommendation using the word 'you' that the 'you' you referred to

>was me.



Yes, it did, but that is only formal. You didn't seem interested, which is

why I was conditional in my comments. To a client, I would just say 'avoid

that,' and they would say 'YESSIR!'



>> They don't, however, enjoy the finepoints of

>> spirit...they are generally too busy with their lives.

>

>???  finepoints of spirit?  You might have me there.  Since I don't know

>what 'finepoints of spirit' are it is hard to determine whether I enjoy

>them or not.



Yes, my point exactly.



>> >I think a 6 oz carton of

>> >Yogurt, weighing in at 70 calories, with no fat, and no sugar (sweetened

>> >with Aspartame) is a healthier way to satisfy that sweet tooth than, say,

>> >a candy bar or  a brownie.

>>

>> Well, that thinking is wrong. Aspartame is a poison.

>

>So a candy bar filled with fatty chocolate, nuts, caramel, sugar PLUS all

>the poisonous chemicals thrown in to preserve it IS indeed healthier than

>fat-free fruit-on-the-bottom yogurt.  ha ha ha HAHHHAHAHHAAA.



The concept of fat as the ultimate villain in health is in vogue, but it a

gross simplification. As for artificial sweeteners being better than sugar,

that is completely wrong. Sugar is actually fine, if taken in small amounts

at the right time. It tends to make the Kidneys tight, so that has to be

watched, but Aspartame is a NEUROTRANSMITTER, and disrupts your brain

balance. NOT a good thing. I have 'cured' several people of chronic

headaches, dizziness, irritability, and insomnia simply by informing them

of this fact.



>> In any case, suit yourself. I will continue to reply for the list's

>> benefit, so your mistakes and lack of consequences don't hurt others who do

>> not share your rugged constitution.

>

>Respond all you like.  Wouldn't have it any other way.  I do think you are

>seriously underestimating the cognitive powers of the people on this list

>however, if you plan to pick nits with each and every thing someone other

>than you posts in order to achieve a greater understanding and to assure

>that all 'errors' as you see them are corrected.

>

>Personally, I think most people are intelligent enough to realize that

>just because something worked for someone, it doesn't mean that it will

>work for everyone else.



The point is WHY. I supply a form of understanding for these processes. You

dismiss those understandings, as you should.



"When informed of the Dao, the fool laughs! As well he should; otherwise,

it would not be the Dao."



>Also, it doesn't follow logically that relaying

>your experiences with a particular herb is in any way a recommendation to

>that person that they SHOULD be taking it (unless, of course, they state

>that the herb is fantastic and they highly recommend it to anyone who

>cares to listen)



Consider it a case study, nothing more.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:59:04 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Wellness with a little herb info tagged at the end - Was Re:

              Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc



>On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:

>> No, you have no way of assessing the damage that practice did to their

>> spirits, since they are modified by the behavior. This is the game that

>> moves as you play. Only by examining the ILL can you understand what may

>> have been lost by the apparently still well.



At 10:55 PM 9/18/96 -0700, Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU> wrote:

>Theoretically, I can agree with this, but it still strikes me as being

>somewhat daffy.  If someone is 'well' ie they feel great, look great, etc.

>then what is the POINT of finding out what they MAY have lost and how they

>could have felt even better.  If you told any of these people how they

>could feel super mega-'well' by just making a few changes, I'm sure most

>would just tell you to get lost.



ME:  I do not believe that "wellness" is only contingent upon feeling and

looking great.  I think Paul is right that there are factors beyond thinking

and feeling that we probably do not readily understand.  Just like the

differences in individual pain threshold, I think that what may feel like

"well" to one person may feel like "illness" to another.  However, Paul, I

think we should stretch the examination to the other end of the spectrum  to

include studying those whose spirits do soar, those who would be included in

the top level of what we perceive as "well."  What are the characteristics

or habits we might emulate to move towards that wellness ourselves.  I am

not meaning to get so ethereal here to exclude healing the truly afflicted,

which, of course, is primary.



>On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:

>> I am well aware

>> that Yang constitution people can shoot themselves in the head night after

>> night and still function.



At 10:55 PM 9/18/96 -0700, Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU> wrote:

>Hmm.  I'll have to try this.  If it proves to be true, I promise I'll

>never dispute another thing you say.  In fact, I'll hunt

>down anyone and everyone who calls you egotistical or a big jerk and shoot

>THEM in the head as well, just to see how they fare.



ME:  Come on boys, can we PLEASE not get out the guns!  My opinion is: THAT

practice is one of the SYMPTONS and one of the CAUSES of disease.



>On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:

>> They don't, however, enjoy the finepoints of

>> spirit...they are generally too busy with their lives.



At 10:55 PM 9/18/96 -0700, Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU> wrote:

>???  finepoints of spirit?  You might have me there.  Since I don't know

>what 'finepoints of spirit' are it is hard to determine whether I enjoy

>them or not.



ME:  Sure you know what he means.  Or, you're too busy with your LIFE.

>

>On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:

>> In any case, suit yourself. I will continue to reply for the list's

>> benefit, so your mistakes and lack of consequences don't hurt others who do

>> not share your rugged constitution.



At 10:55 PM 9/18/96 -0700, Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU> wrote:

>Respond all you like.  Wouldn't have it any other way.  I do think you are

>seriously underestimating the cognitive powers of the people on this list

>however, if you plan to pick nits with each and every thing someone other

>than you posts in order to achieve a greater understanding and to assure

>that all 'errors' as you see them are corrected.

>

>Personally, I think most people are intelligent enough to realize that

>just because something worked for someone, it doesn't mean that it will

>work for everyone else.  Also, it doesn't follow logically that relaying

>your experiences with a particular herb is in any way a recommendation to

>that person that they SHOULD be taking it (unless, of course, they state

>that the herb is fantastic and they highly recommend it to anyone who

>cares to listen)



ME:  Everyone begins their quest for knowledge (understanding) at a point

that is not in sync with everyone else they might interact with.  There are

those with more information and those with less.  There are those unwilling

to listen to ideas alternative to their own and those who will.  Etc., etc.,

etc.,etc.,   Lighten up, Paul.  You don't have to give everyone a proverbial

wack on the head.



Crosley, I'm not sure MOST people are intelligent enough to

realize.......etc.  I think that we don't even begin to understand what REAL

intelligence is yet.  And, MOST people in this society smoke too much, drink

too much alcohol, do too many drugs, work too hard, excercise too much,

ignore their spirituality and their humanity, don't know HOW they feel.....

and/or don't think too deeply, let alone excercise their other senses too

deeply.  Let's not delude ourselves about how collectively intelligent we are.



My advice to the original poster, who fell asleep after lunch:  Listen to

all the good advice, take what you will.    A little trick I use to bring

myself alert if I'm tiring at the computer:  I keep a small muslin bag

filled with lavender buds, thyme and rosemary leaf next to the computer.

Every now and then I give it a scrunch and press it to my nostrils and

inhale.  This works for me.  Might not work for you.  Take it or leave it.

This suggestion does not discount any of the other good advice to build your

strength and endurance overall.



Be Well,

.



Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 03:04:04 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Wellness with a little herb info tagged at the end - Was Re:

              Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960919075904.00b0c37c@mail.halcyon.com>



>ME:  I do not believe that "wellness" is only contingent upon feeling and

>looking great.  I think Paul is right that there are factors beyond thinking

>and feeling that we probably do not readily understand.  Just like the

>differences in individual pain threshold, I think that what may feel like

>"well" to one person may feel like "illness" to another.  However, Paul, I

>think we should stretch the examination to the other end of the spectrum  to

>include studying those whose spirits do soar, those who would be included in

>the top level of what we perceive as "well."  What are the characteristics

>or habits we might emulate to move towards that wellness ourselves.  I am

>not meaning to get so ethereal here to exclude healing the truly afflicted,

>which, of course, is primary.



Well, that is where you and I will diverge. I do NOT believe that health is

the purpose of life, or that spirits, even very successful spirits, will

appear healthy or even be healthy. I know that spirit is a battlefield, and

just like a mother may be quite unhealthy because of sacrifices made for

her children, a person striving for a full and rich experience of spirit

may be quite unhealthy as a result, just as an artist may be quite sick,

but doing great work, and as such fulfilling their spirit.



I am categorically opposed to the New Age conflation of 'goodness' with spirit.



[snip]



>>Personally, I think most people are intelligent enough to realize that

>>just because something worked for someone, it doesn't mean that it will

>>work for everyone else.  Also, it doesn't follow logically that relaying

>>your experiences with a particular herb is in any way a recommendation to

>>that person that they SHOULD be taking it (unless, of course, they state

>>that the herb is fantastic and they highly recommend it to anyone who

>>cares to listen)

>

>ME:  Everyone begins their quest for knowledge (understanding) at a point

>that is not in sync with everyone else they might interact with.  There are

>those with more information and those with less.  There are those unwilling

>to listen to ideas alternative to their own and those who will.  Etc., etc.,

>etc.,etc.,   Lighten up, Paul.  You don't have to give everyone a proverbial

>wack on the head.



Well, again, I don't have any sort of belief that people are 'on their

quest for knowledge or understanding.' Some are, most aren't. I do not

share the New Age idea that everyone is being born to discover 'the truth.'

Not being a believer in reincarnation, I think it is obvious that there

isn't enough time to wait to find out about spirit. You either do it NOW,

or you don't, and that often means don't EVER.



>Marcia Elston



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 03:21:42 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Wellness with a little herb info tagged at the end - Was Re:

              Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960919075904.00b0c37c@mail.halcyon.com>



On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Marcia Elston wrote:



> >On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:

> >> No, you have no way of assessing the damage that practice did to their

> >> spirits, since they are modified by the behavior.

>

> At 10:55 PM 9/18/96 -0700, Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU> wrote:

> >Theoretically, I can agree with this, but it still strikes me as being

> >somewhat daffy.  If someone is 'well' ie they feel great, look great, etc.

> >then what is the POINT of finding out what they MAY have lost and how they

> >could have felt even better.

>

> ME:  I do not believe that "wellness" is only contingent upon feeling and

> looking great.



If I look very deeply into the dpeths of my soul, I'd probably come to the

same conclusion, but this grey thing I have seated in my skull cavity, the

thing which I have spent years filling with information and have learend

to reason with, still wonders why it should concern itself with making

the body it is attached to feel even BETTER when it already feels pretty

damned good as it is.  I'm not trying to be a smartass or hard-headed

about the whole thing.  I understand the position that Paul (and you, Mar

cia) have taken about wholeness and wellness and preventing diseases or

disturbances BEFORE they occur, etc.  I would certainly advocate eating

well, exercise in moderation, social interaction, spiritual learning, as

ways of keeping yourself in tune and being happy and healthy since that

is what has worked for me..  At the same

time though, being mercenary about the whole thing is an error, in my

opinion, since the jury is still out, so to speak, on the entire issue.

The scientists are *constantly* revising their opinnions on what is

healthy and what isn't.  Recall that graham crackers were considered

'health food' when they came out because they were made with whole wheat

flour, and now the doctors are realizing along with the whole wheat flour

is a whole bunch of sugar and fat and perhaps aren't quite as healthful as

they first imagined.  My solution is to be in tune with my body, pay

attention to it, feed it with the things I like to eat and which don't

make it, for example, quiver uncontrollably, or break out in hives, and

which *knock wood* do allow it to perform my daily duties without any

demonstrable negative side effects.  Until some ultimate authority, (ie,

God) comes down and points out my error to me, I have to just sort through

the information I'm given from 'lesser' sources and incorporate/remove

those things from my diet/lifestyle that I believe to be detrimental.



> I think Paul is right that there are factors beyond thinking

> and feeling that we probably do not readily understand.



I think there are probably MANY factors beyond thinking and feeling that

we probably do not readily understand, I just don't see this as something

that Paul has been indicating.  There is Paul's way and then there is the

way of the fools, the charlatans, the goofballs, the misguided.

Apparently there is no in-between in his eyes.  At this moment Paul

possesses every useful bit of information that will ever be gleaned, and

do not bother even HINTING that another way might be correct.



Just like the

> differences in individual pain threshold, I think that what may feel like

> "well" to one person may feel like "illness" to another.  However, Paul, I

> think we should stretch the examination to the other end of the spectrum  to

> include studying those whose spirits do soar, those who would be included in

> the top level of what we perceive as "well."  What are the characteristics

> or habits we might emulate to move towards that wellness ourselves.  I am

> not meaning to get so ethereal here to exclude healing the truly afflicted,

> which, of course, is primary.



Amen to that paragraph.







> >On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:

> >> They don't, however, enjoy the finepoints of

> >> spirit...they are generally too busy with their lives.

>

> At 10:55 PM 9/18/96 -0700, Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU> wrote:

> >???  finepoints of spirit?  You might have me there.  Since I don't know

> >what 'finepoints of spirit' are it is hard to determine whether I enjoy

> >them or not.

>

> ME:  Sure you know what he means.  Or, you're too busy with your LIFE.



I have a nebulous notion of what he meant, but since I disagree 100

percent with him based on my nebulous notion of what he meant, i decided

it was wiser to just let it drop.  I didn't want to fall into the trap of

writing out all the ways I thought he was full of it, only to have him

come back and say 'Ha! You obviously have no clue what I was talking

about!"



To summarize, if I may, my nebulous notion, I thought he was telling me

that my (what was the term? Yang Constitution?) Yang constitution

precluded me from being able to step back from my 'life' and just enjoy

'living' and 'being'. That I was so wrapped in my self and how *I* felt

that I was basically incapable of any 'deeper' thought.  To this I say

hogwash.  I am very in tune with nature and possess an overwhelming urge

to safeguard beauty at ALL costs.  This is one thing I *am* mercenary

about.  My spirituality (though unorganized, and basically something I

made up on my own) is growing and is beneficial to me.  I consider myself

wise, curious, and open-minded.  People that think they know everything

about me based on a feew mail messages aren't open-minded at all, no

matter how much they might insist otherwise.



> >

> >On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:

> >> In any case, suit yourself. I will continue to reply for the list's

> >> benefit, so your mistakes and lack of consequences don't hurt others who do

> >> not share your rugged constitution.

>

> At 10:55 PM 9/18/96 -0700, Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU> wrote:

> >Respond all you like.  Wouldn't have it any other way.  I do think you are

> >seriously underestimating the cognitive powers of the people on this list

> >however,



> Crosley, I'm not sure MOST people are intelligent enough to

> realize.......etc.  I think that we don't even begin to understand what REAL

> intelligence is yet.  And, MOST people in this society smoke too much, drink

> too much alcohol, do too many drugs, work too hard, excercise too much,

> ignore their spirituality and their humanity, don't know HOW they feel.....

> and/or don't think too deeply, let alone excercise their other senses too

> deeply.  Let's not delude ourselves about how collectively intelligent we are.

>



I'd be the last person to deny any of the assertions you've made in the

above paragraph based on the rose-colored (oh why be so cliche) the Neon

Purple-colored (!!) glasses I view the world through.  It still sorta begs

the question though about how people are supposed to live their lives.  If

for some strange reason, I am lying on my death bed, next to a heavy

drinker, smoker, alcoholic, whose teeth have all rotted out of his mouth,

who is also lying on HIS death bed and I ask him if he's had a basically

good life with a good family, etc. and has no regrets, and he tells me

"no, no regrets." who am I to say, "NYEAH! Mine was better I'd wager!"  I

may very well lose that bet.









-C



___                                                ___

|_|___                              _______________|_|

|_||_|       The Elements           |_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_|______________________________|_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_|Ah, love. The walks over soft grass, the smiles |_|

|_|over candlelight, the arguments over just about |_|

|_|everything else.  |_||_||_| -Max Headroom |_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_|

      __________________________________________

      |_|cbendix@nunic.nu.edu |_||_||_||_||_||_|

      |_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:34:13 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Lisa Contreras <LMCONT00@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 18 Sep 1996 23:51:01 -0700 from <pi2@LOOP.COM>



On Wed, 18 Sep 1996 23:51:01 -0700 Paul Iannone said:

>>On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:

>>

>>> >On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:

>>

>

>Well, I think the consumers are getting just what they deserve and are even

>after. I don't put all the blame on corporations. People can't be bothered

>to seek out the fullness of their lives because they are too busy with

>ambitions. That can't merely be a result (of marketing, etc.)...it is a

>cause.



  Please Paul, I do think you are being unduly judgmental here about _why_

 people (read consumer) don't always take the time to find the way to a better,

 fuller lifestyle.  Many, if not most, are so caught up in the mere daily

 struggle to put food (nothing fancy) on the table, clothes (not necessarily

 the "latest fashion scream") on their and their children's backs and a roof

 over their family's heads that there is no time left at the end of the day

 for anything more than to fall into bed exhausted just to get up the next

 day and start over again.  Not *everyone* is all caught up in the mad scramble

 to make it to the "top" - whatever that is - and to possess all the "things" t

hthat this materialistic society here in the US offers.  I have lived in So.

 California as I believe you do now.  Maybe your vision has become a little

 warped by that experience?  (My apologies to any, especially Angelenos, whom

 this might offend).  I asked you in an earlier post if you could suggest

 alternatives to those of us who do NOT have easy access (for whatever reason)

 to healers such as yourself and you did not respond to that.  Many of us

 dabble, experiment, etc because we WANT to heal ourselves, we WANT to be

 well and we KNOW there is a better way of *being* than what we are now expe-

 riencing but we are barred  access to the avenues that would lead us to the

 realization of these goalsfor many different reasons, as I stated before.

 For many of us, lists such as this one are our main centers of education for

 herbology (in my case, I have free internet access because I am a student.

 If I were having to pay an online service provider, I wouldn't be here because

 I couldn't afford it).  Paul, you know that I agree with much of what you say

 and that your manner of expression (curmudgeon-li-ness :-)) doesn't offend

 me as it did in the beginning because I have learned to see what is behind

 it (and much of the time, as I've told you privately, I think you're a hoot!)

 but it does bother me that you seem to want to dismiss the greater portion of

 society that doesn't actively seek out "the way" (your way?) because they are

  ambition-driven mad consumerists.  I simply don't think that's a fair

 assessment of what's really going on.



And  now a question referring to something you say below about sugar.

   What is a "tight" kidney?  I get an image of something clenched, possibly

   in spasm.  Is that accurate?  I have had some kidney problems off and on

   since childhood (less in recent years) and am very interested in this

    area as I want to avoid possible problems as I get older.



>

>that is completely wrong. Sugar is actually fine, if taken in small amounts

>at the right time. It tends to make the Kidneys tight, so that has to be

>



    Thanks for any comments you may offer-



    Lisa Contreras





>

>Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:00:46 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Wellness with a little herb info tagged at the end - Was Re:

              Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.92.960919013247.18023B-100000@nunic.nu.edu>



Crosley writes:



>At the same

>time though, being mercenary about the whole thing is an error, in my

>opinion, since the jury is still out, so to speak, on the entire issue.

>The scientists are *constantly* revising their opinnions on what is

>healthy and what isn't.



Within the faith structure of conventional biomedicine. The 'facts' will

not necessarily EVER be known from that standpoint, so the revisions are

more on the level of corrections of previous assumptions made within that

system, and high tech solutions within that system.



>There is Paul's way and then there is the

>way of the fools, the charlatans, the goofballs, the misguided.

>Apparently there is no in-between in his eyes.  At this moment Paul

>possesses every useful bit of information that will ever be gleaned, and

>do not bother even HINTING that another way might be correct.



Knowledge requires a foundation. I propose the perspective of a great

tradition with 4,000 years of observations. 'Bits of information' in

themselves are nearly useless.



>To summarize, if I may, my nebulous notion, I thought he was telling me

>that my (what was the term? Yang Constitution?) Yang constitution

>precluded me from being able to step back from my 'life' and just enjoy

>'living' and 'being'. That I was so wrapped in my self and how *I* felt

>that I was basically incapable of any 'deeper' thought.



That is not what I said. 'Capability' is not the issue. Advent is the

issue. You don't consider these factors in your lifestyle to be worthy of

consideration---so you have said. They are cut-and-dried choices. I need a

stimulant...I tried these stimulants...this worked; this didn't. That is

not the  'use' of deeper thought or finepoints...it says nothing about your

ability to think deeper. You just don't tend to in this regard. And that is

the mark of a Yang constitution person.



>If

>for some strange reason, I am lying on my death bed, next to a heavy

>drinker, smoker, alcoholic, whose teeth have all rotted out of his mouth,

>who is also lying on HIS death bed and I ask him if he's had a basically

>good life with a good family, etc. and has no regrets, and he tells me

>"no, no regrets." who am I to say, "NYEAH! Mine was better I'd wager!"  I

>may very well lose that bet.

>

>-C



I have never made such a suggestion. But I certainly would not have been

that person's healer, because their choices were needlessly

self-destructive.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:18:34 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <960919.101123.EDT.LMCONT00@ukcc.uky.edu>



>>>>I wrote:

>>>

>>

>>Well, I think the consumers are getting just what they deserve and are even

>>after. I don't put all the blame on corporations. People can't be bothered

>>to seek out the fullness of their lives because they are too busy with

>>ambitions. That can't merely be a result (of marketing, etc.)...it is a

>>cause.

>

>  Please Paul, I do think you are being unduly judgmental here about _why_

> people (read consumer) don't always take the time to find the way to a

>better,

> fuller lifestyle.  Many, if not most, are so caught up in the mere daily

> struggle to put food (nothing fancy) on the table



[snip]



>Not *everyone* is all caught up in the mad scramble

> to make it to the "top" - whatever that is - and to possess all the "things"

>that this materialistic society here in the US offers.



Lisa, I said nothing about a mad dash to the top. Raising a family IS an

AMBITION. People interested in spirit or creativity for thousands of years

have foregone the experience. I'm not saying that they have to, I'm saying

that people naturally take their chances with their choices. When those

choices are detrimental to their health, that can be pointed out. Many,

many people have no apparent choice but to rely on OTC quick-fixes. That's

too bad, but it cannot be blamed exclusively on the big bad corporations,

as despicable as they are. They are simply catering to a social need. My

work is largely about destroying the framework of that need, both at a

practical and at a conceptual level.



I did not invent the economic system here---the five day workweek and eight

hour workday (or the ten hour workday) are fictions of this society's

imagination. That they make people ill is obvious. Such hurried people have

few options beyond 'interventionist medicine.' I am a healer, not a hired

gun medical plumber, so I have little to say about such facts of life. My

work is with the unusual people who have the time and energy to change the

course they are on---if they only knew how. As such, I am not much of a

'struggling family' healer. Chinese healing technology is not cheap, so if

people cannot apply 'free' lifestyle change...like NOT taking stimulants,

for instance, then there is very little I can do without causing greater

financial stress.



[snip]

> but it does bother me that you seem to want to dismiss the greater portion of

> society that doesn't actively seek out "the way" (your way?) because they are

>  ambition-driven mad consumerists.  I simply don't think that's a fair

> assessment of what's really going on.



I seem to dismiss the greater portion of society because I think they are

pretty much beyond my sort of help. I work one-on-one with individuals who

CAN change the things that are making them ill. There is very little I can

do for people who have improper lifestyles FOR WHATEVER REASON, and who yet

cannot take or refuse to take advantage of what technology (including

herbs) exists to help them holistically. Since herbs are not drugs, you

cannot just slap some on, on occasion, and expect to get very far towards

balance.



>And  now a question referring to something you say below about sugar.

>   What is a "tight" kidney?  I get an image of something clenched, possibly

>   in spasm.  Is that accurate?



Yes. There are several observations I make on a regular basis that I

endeavour to extract from the matrix of healing views in a way that doesn't

end up suggesting health-cult solutions. So I am not going to demonize

sugar, because it is clear to me that it in itself is not demonic.

Nonetheless, I observe that it contracts the Kidneys...this is rather a

Macrobiotic sort of observation, but worth making. Note that this is Kidney

with a capital K. I am not saying that the form of the conventional kidney

changes.



The implications are still 'at large,' so I can't spell them out entirely

at this rather rushed moment. But they are not that sugar is inherently

'bad.' I am much more in opposition to fruit sweeteners and certainly to

any empty-Kcalorie artificial sweeteners, which ruin the Stomach.



Paul



>    Lisa Contreras



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:00:22 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         gene o'regon <gene@SQN.COM>

Subject:      herbs for vitality



hi -

        what herbs are energy-giving? how can they be ingested?

        thanks

        caroline

|| Sci-Fi! Caroline's reviews of all-time-best science fiction movies.

|| Current : ANDROMEDA STRAIN [1971]. Michael Crichton's first.

|| Open "http://sqn.com" or email "review@sqn.com". Enjoy!





From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:04:22 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Wellness with a little herb info tagged at the end - Was Re:

              Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <v03007803ae67232bf95f@[204.179.169.35]>



On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:

>

> Within the faith structure of conventional biomedicine. The 'facts' will

> not necessarily EVER be known from that standpoint, so the revisions are

> more on the level of corrections of previous assumptions made within that

> system, and high tech solutions within that system.

>

> >There is Paul's way and then there is the

> >way of the fools, the charlatans, the goofballs, the misguided.

> >Apparently there is no in-between in his eyes.  At this moment Paul

> >possesses every useful bit of information that will ever be gleaned, and

> >do not bother even HINTING that another way might be correct.

>

> Knowledge requires a foundation. I propose the perspective of a great

> tradition with 4,000 years of observations. 'Bits of information' in

> themselves are nearly useless.



At how many years of observation did it become more than just 'bits of

information.' and become a viable 'science'.  5 years? 100 years? 1000

years? last week?  Because an idea has been around for centuries, or

millenia doesn't make it useful or even factual.  I expect the Academy

Awards will be around in another thousand years.  That won't make them any

less of a joke than they are now.



>

> >To summarize, if I may, my nebulous notion, I thought he was telling

me

> >that my (what was the term? Yang Constitution?) Yang constitution

> >precluded me from being able to step back from my 'life' and just enjoy

> >'living' and 'being'. That I was so wrapped in my self and how *I* felt

> >that I was basically incapable of any 'deeper' thought.

>

> That is not what I said. 'Capability' is not the issue. Advent is the

> issue. You don't consider these factors in your lifestyle to be worthy of

> consideration---so you have said. They are cut-and-dried choices. I need a

> stimulant...I tried these stimulants...this worked; this didn't. That is

> not the  'use' of deeper thought or finepoints...it says nothing about your

> ability to think deeper. You just don't tend to in this regard. And that is

> the mark of a Yang constitution person.



You've lost me here.  We're having a clash of terms, I think.  Which

'factors' do you refer to?  I can't even respond to this.  Please level

the field for me.  You said that a Yang Constitution person DOES NOT enjoy

the 'finepoints of spirit' (yet another undefined term) and at the same

time labelled me as a Yang constitution person.  Since no definition was

forthcoming, I took a stab at what I *thought* you meant.  Obviously I was

wrong (you told me I was wrong) but have still not defined the term.



>

> >If

> >for some strange reason, I am lying on my death bed, next to a heavy

> >drinker, smoker, alcoholic, whose teeth have all rotted out of his mouth,

> >who is also lying on HIS death bed and I ask him if he's had a basically

> >good life with a good family, etc. and has no regrets, and he tells me

> >"no, no regrets." who am I to say, "NYEAH! Mine was better I'd wager!"  I

> >may very well lose that bet.

> >

> >-C

>

> I have never made such a suggestion. But I certainly would not have been

> that person's healer, because their choices were needlessly

> self-destructive.



That example wasn't about you, per se, nor about whether or not you would

heal them.  It aspired to the larger question of whether or not healing

was even NECESSARY given the fact that from all outward observations this

person's health was terrible.



>

> Paul

>



___                                                ___

|_|___                              _______________|_|

|_||_|       The Elements           |_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_|______________________________|_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_|Ah, love. The walks over soft grass, the smiles |_|

|_|over candlelight, the arguments over just about |_|

|_|everything else.  |_||_||_| -Max Headroom |_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_|

      __________________________________________

      |_|cbendix@nunic.nu.edu |_||_||_||_||_||_|

      |_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:26:40 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Omapie <catzcom@FLASH.NET>

Organization: Catz Communications

Subject:      Re: HERB Digest - 17 Sep 1996

Comments: To: "Gerald I. Sugarman" <GIS01@AOL.COM>



Hi, Jerry!

So then, would this same combination work for myofascial pain - which

also has something to do with connective tissue (the fascia I believe

they call it)? And what do these do exactly - do they help repair,

supply energy, or relieve pain or ??? Thanks!



Lori

-------------------------------------------

"Gerald I. Sugarman" <GIS01@AOL.COM> wrote:

[snip...]

> Date:    Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:16:19 -0400

> From:    "Gerald I. Sugarman" <GIS01@AOL.COM>

> Subject: Re: Connective tissure rx

>

> try arginine 1000 mg 2x/day, Vit c 1000 mg 3x/day and GLA 124 mg 2/day

> (extracted from 1000 mg of the Borage).

> Jerry************************

email: catzcom@flash.net

Texas-owned & operated by a multitude of plants, animals, and

roses, roses, roses...



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:38:00 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Walter Semerenko <walter@ORLINTER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc



> Personally, I think most people are intelligent enough to realize that

> just because something worked for someone, it doesn't mean that it will

> work for everyone else.  Also, it doesn't follow logically that relaying

> your experiences with a particular herb is in any way a recommendation to

> that person that they SHOULD be taking it (unless, of course, they state

> that the herb is fantastic and they highly recommend it to anyone who

> cares to listen)



Well said..well said  <applause>



Walter.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 22:33:22 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         bill jackson <jackson@NR.INFI.NET>

Subject:      Contradictions



Hi all,

I went out and purchased two new books today, 1 by David Hoffman and the

other by Rosemary Gladstar. I am enjoying them both. I have a question tho,

I am interested in purchasing a book that will explain what herbs are bad

for certain conditions. The only one I know anything about is Rosemary, my

grandmother has to avoid it because of her high blood pressure and that I

found out by pure luck.



I am still searching for the perfect herbal course. I have receive some

info, but most seems to be a big advertisement for the products these people

sell. I want a school that wants me to learn, not buy, buy, buy.  Could

anyone tell me about David Hoffman's courses? Rosemary Gladstar's?



I am learning alot from reading, could anyone pass along their favorite herb

book titles?



Thanks,

Gerri

The student for life :)



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:54:03 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: Contradictions



Gerri

If you have have the time,...



Look at www.bastyr.edu and go to their Library and look up their on line

services.  There you can find an herb link to some of the most fascinating

material as well as helpful pointers for course, classes and books.  I have

spent hours just looking.  It might be wortha hour cruise.



Ron



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:55:41 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc



Yawn!



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 20:36:44 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960920025541.00695a2c@pop.televar.com>



On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Ron Robertson wrote:



> Yawn!

>



Are we boring you?  Maybe if we attach a naughty gif to each of our

postings it would help.

___                                                ___

|_|___                              _______________|_|

|_||_|       The Elements           |_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_|______________________________|_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_|Ah, love. The walks over soft grass, the smiles |_|

|_|over candlelight, the arguments over just about |_|

|_|everything else.  |_||_||_| -Max Headroom |_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_|

      __________________________________________

      |_|cbendix@nunic.nu.edu |_||_||_||_||_||_|

      |_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 23:31:41 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Lisa Contreras <LMCONT00@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Contradictions

In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 19 Sep 1996 22:33:22 -0400 from

              <jackson@NR.INFI.NET>



On Thu, 19 Sep 1996 22:33:22 -0400 bill jackson said:



Bill:  The Way of Herbs by Michael Tierra has a chapter titled "Cautionary

       Notes on Herb Use".. It isn't by any means all-encompassing but does

       give some useful general guidelines within categories of certain con-

       ditions.  The herbs he mentions as being contraindicated for persons

       with high blood pressure include goldenseal, ginseng, licorice, lily

       of the valley and ephedra.  Otherwise, in his sections on individual

       herbs, he lists conditions under which that specific herb should not be

       used, whenever a warning is appropriate.  Many herb descriptions carry n

       no warning, but I would be hesitant to say that this means that there is

      never a contraindication for that herb.  I always check as many sources

      as I can and compare the different bits of information I get before

      considering using ANY herb for anyone.



       Lisa



oHi all,

>I went out and purchased two new books today, 1 by David Hoffman and the

>other by Rosemary Gladstar. I am enjoying them both. I have a question tho,

>I am interested in purchasing a book that will explain what herbs are bad

>for certain conditions. The only one I know anything about is Rosemary, my

>grandmother has to avoid it because of her high blood pressure and that I

>found out by pure luck.

>

>I am still searching for the perfect herbal course. I have receive some

>info, but most seems to be a big advertisement for the products these people

>sell. I want a school that wants me to learn, not buy, buy, buy.  Could

>anyone tell me about David Hoffman's courses? Rosemary Gladstar's?

>

>I am learning alot from reading, could anyone pass along their favorite herb

>book titles?

>

>Thanks,

>Gerri

>The student for life :)



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 19 Sep 1996 20:42:53 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: Sleepy after after reading the apistles of Paul



>You don't have to take my every post so personally--



Does this comment imply you wish I did take it  personally,  I dont recall

saying I took it,  just that you sounded a tad bit self-righteous



>I can't take the time

>to review each of my posts for the possibility that someone will get their

>feelings hurt.

As far as I can tell you dont take much time to review period and you aim

directly at people's feelings when you attack their way of life.  Who you

are Paul and what you do looks very very ugly from someone who is just

reading along.  Namely attacking and not helping.

>My point is that saying that something which is representative of health

>imbalance is 'normal' doesn't advance your understanding at all.

You have mispointed several points  and I tire of your bantar

> Women think, in this country, that PMS is 'normal.' It ISN'T. You

shouldn't experience ANY particular discomfort with a period.



Here we go to left field again.



>Just so, feeling tired after meals is a sign that something is WRONG.



You assume peoples perception and description of "tired" is accurate and you

presume to KNOW what ails their bodies from words in an email.



>Correct your lifestyle, and return to health, which is fairly well defined

as the state in which life is NOT experienced AS anything.



I question your point of view as vigorously as you question others.  I am

neither offended nor are my feelings hurt, but I think that you state too

much of your opinion and not enough Cold Hard Fact.  (CHF is not souly your

experience)



The use of herbs for energy is a joke in todays culture.  The use of herbs

is going to be mass mediaized and altered to suit our quick fix society. It

is a strong running fad and will remain thus until people can be educated

and given the opportunity to adjust to alternative lifestyles.



The nutritional and dietary knowledge base of today's average person sucks

and you will only make it worse by making one out to be a fool in front of

their face.



A blind child does not know he is blind until he knows that others see.

Telling him only confuses him, showing him is the only way.  But how do you

show a blind child he is blind?



Paul Id love to see less of your commentary and more of everyone elses.



Ron



>Paul

>

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 00:34:56 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <v0300780fae6698f3778b@[206.138.116.195]>



**Brief note:  I know I apologized previously for posting messages I had

intended for Paul's eyes only to the list at large.  Apparently though,

based on the feedback to the apology message, people are pleased and

interested in the side issues I was raising and asked me to keep the

conversation in the public, so that is what I am doing.**





On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:



>

> To the degree that you have corrected the impression that ginseng is a

> STIMULANT, then I suppose this has served a purpose.



mighty big of you to assert that.  Particularly big of you considering

that neither the original query, nor my response to it, had anything to do

with you.







> Well, I think the consumers are getting just what they deserve and are even

> after. I don't put all the blame on corporations.



I think we might agree on something here.  I don't put all the blame on

the corporations either, despite how diabolical their intentions are.

Ultimately, it is the consumer's final choice as to whether they are going

to 'buy into' the hype handed them.  Forget about herbs for a minute.  I

think the average person's life would be greatly improved by taking a

course in critical thinking and logic.  Turning off their TVs would

probably behoove most folks, too.



>

> >Theoretically, I can agree with this, but it still strikes me as being

> >somewhat daffy.  If someone is 'well' ie they feel great, look great, etc.

> >then what is the POINT of finding out what they MAY have lost and how they

> >could have felt even better.  If you told any of these people how they

> >could feel super mega-'well' by just making a few changes, I'm sure most

> >would just tell you to get lost.

>

> The point is that a healer such as myself can TELL where their health is

> corroding, but they aren't interested, and won't do anything about it

> because they 'feel great.'



Then there really WAS no point in telling him that, was there?  You just

unwittingly provided support for what I was saying.  There is a certain

comfort level that I think most people desire, and anything above that is

just gravy.  Some may want to go that extra mile and 'pre-treat'

themselves for a purported impending catastrophe.  Most will not.



> So an Organ level disharmony doesn't necessarily make a person NOT feel

> great. But it isn't equivalent to health, either.



Just for kicks, I looked up 'health' in my Websters Dictionary.  Here are

my findings: "n. physical and mental well-being; freedom from disease,

etc."  For further kicks I looked up 'well-being' and here are my

findings: "n. the state of being well, happy, or prosperous."  and For

even further kicks I looked up 'well' and here are my findings: "adv. in a

satisfactory manner."  SO if you contract that down, compressing all the

definitions within definitions, you come up with a pretty good definition

of 'healthy' as 'in a state of being physically and mentally satisfactory,

happy, or prosperous;  free from disease.'  Nothing too lofty there.  Your

definition for 'health' seems quite excessive.









>

> In this regard, it can be fairly said that healers understand health and

> illness better than their clients. They have a comprehensive model of human

> existence, and argue for the wellbeing of the entire person, not just for

> their outsides and superficial feelings of wellbeing.



I won't make the blanket statement that I'd really like to make which is

that it sounds like what 'healers' understand better than their clients is

how to bilk unsuspecting people out of their cash.  I won't make that

statement because I am unsure of how much of these 'healing' seervices

are performed for cash and how much is performed for free.  You don't

offer 'health' at all.  "Health" by standard definitions can be

obtained for nothing and 'fixed' only if needed.  You've

repackaged some odd version of, oh let's call it 'Mega-Health', and seek

to convince your clients that this mega-health IS the one truly 'healthy'

state of being.



>

> With you, I would ask you if you think that stimulants and a lifestyle that

> require them are the best way for you to live.



You wouldn't be asking me anything, because I wouldn't be in your office

to begin with.  As you'll recall, you've diagnosed me as having a Yang

constitution.  Since I 'feel great', having shot myself in the head every

night for the past week, I don't think anything needs to be fixed and

would have no need for your services.







> >> I criticized it [fruit-on-the-bottom yogurt] not for your benefit,

> >> but for the list

> >

> >I'm quite sure that the list has no more information about why yogurt is

> >such an unhealthy choice than it did before you made the assertion.  You

> >mentioned damp goo exploding in people faces and nothing more.

>

> For those who have been here for awhile, this was probably descriptive

> enough.



I have been, and it wasn't.





> Yes, it did, but that is only formal. You didn't seem interested, which is

> why I was conditional in my comments. To a client, I would just say 'avoid

> that,' and they would say 'YESSIR!'



I'm beginning to see why you do not blame the corporations for their

'evil-ness' in the previous paragraphs about consumerism.



>

> >> They don't, however, enjoy the finepoints of

> >> spirit...they are generally too busy with their lives.

> >

> >???  finepoints of spirit?  You might have me there.  Since I don't know

> >what 'finepoints of spirit' are it is hard to determine whether I enjoy

> >them or not.

>

> Yes, my point exactly.



huh?  This sounds suspiciously like my mother who, when I was little,

would always say "WELL IF YOU DON'T KNOW, I"M SURE NOT GOING TO TELL YOU!"

any time we had a disagreement about a moral issue and I wondered why

whatever was being discussed was/wasn't moral.  She thought she was making

a really big point, but in actuality, all she was doing was aggravating

me.



In the above case, I placed 'finepoints of spirit' in quotes because I was

having trouble with your terminology.  nothing more.  Which point,

exactly, did I make for you?  That you don't make sense sometimes?





> The concept of fat as the ultimate villain in health is in vogue, but it a

> gross simplification.



I don't think it is the ultimate villain, but it is certainly right up

there.  Whether it is in 'vogue' or not at the moment is irrelevant.  You

cannot argue the fact that obesity leads to, literally, dozens of

life-threatening diseases.  Reducing your fat intake to acceptable levels

and exercising off whatever excess fat you have is the only way to combat

it.



> As for artificial sweeteners being better than sugar,

> that is completely wrong.



Says you.  So far, I am unconvinced by the data I've read which states

that Aspartame causes all sorts of nasty things, like brain tumors, etc.

One article I read indicated you would need to drink the equivalent of

(something like) 50 Aspartame-sweetened sodas per day for a long period of

time (something like a month) in order to experience any of the the

negative consequences they

describe.  I don't even believe this is humanly possible (well maybe if

you were fitted with a catheter, who knows) and if it were, who would do

it anyhow.  I consume about 3 or 4 aspartame-sweetened items per Week, at

most.  Ie.  it is a negligible amount.  I'd rather consume those

equivalent empty sugar calories (be they ever so few) in the form of a

complex carbohydrate, and maybe pick up a few vitamins and minerals along

the way.



Call me crazy, but I still believe that eating a boneless, skinless

chicken breast, some green beans, perhaps some green salad, and a 70

calorie carton of aspartame-sweetened yogurt (about 280 calories total) is

a healthier choice than your typical chocolate candy bar with nuts and

caramel, etc. (also about 280 calories).  You apparently disagree.



> >

> >Personally, I think most people are intelligent enough to realize that

> >just because something worked for someone, it doesn't mean that it will

> >work for everyone else.

>

> The point is WHY. I supply a form of understanding for these processes. You

> dismiss those understandings, as you should.

>

> "When informed of the Dao, the fool laughs! As well he should; otherwise,

> it would not be the Dao."



Help me out here people.  Should I be offended?  I think he just called me

a fool!



Fortunately, I have a book of quotations as well.



"Freedom of thought is the only guarantee against infection of people by

mass myths, which in the hands of treacherous hypocrites and demagogues,

can be transformed into bloody dictatorships."  -Andrei Dmitrievich

Sakharov



>

> Consider it a case study, nothing more.

>

> Paul

>



I'll consider you a case study instead.  Nothing more.  A case study in

what?  I'm not saying.









-C





___                                                ___

|_|___                              _______________|_|

|_||_|       The Elements           |_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_|______________________________|_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_|Ah, love. The walks over soft grass, the smiles |_|

|_|over candlelight, the arguments over just about |_|

|_|everything else.  |_||_||_| -Max Headroom |_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_|

      __________________________________________

      |_|cbendix@nunic.nu.edu |_||_||_||_||_||_|

      |_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:28:19 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Wellness with a little herb info tagged at the end - Was Re:

              Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.92.960919113526.29395D-100000@nunic.nu.edu>



>On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:

>> Knowledge requires a foundation. I propose the perspective of a great

>> tradition with 4,000 years of observations. 'Bits of information' in

>> themselves are nearly useless.

>

>At how many years of observation did it become more than just 'bits of

>information.' and become a viable 'science'.  5 years? 100 years? 1000

>years? last week?



Well, actually Chinese healing appears to have developed its primary

DESCRIPTIVE language overnight, as it were. And in fact, every paradigm

does. This is one of those mysteries of the Logos...quite fascinating. As

for the FORMULAS, which are the practical end of the system from the herbal

side, they were developed in leaps and bounds over the entire period. Since

the descriptive language turned out to be adequate for the most part, these

formulas were developed in many cases in a single lifetime.



>Because an idea has been around for centuries, or

>millenia doesn't make it useful or even factual.



Of course not. Which is why when that happens, it is groovy.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:25:09 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Joseph H. Garner" <JHGarner@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc



Another piece of advice/observation for what it may be worth to you:



You state that you eat breakfast. I have observed in my practice as an

acupuncturist/

Chinese herbologist that people who have trouble with a major post-lunch

energy dip (enough of a dip to complain about it) often do not eat the kind

of breakfast that will provide the beginning of a stable energy flow all day.

My teachers taught me that Chinese medicine believes a good, nourishing

breakfast is essential for most people and that it should ideally be the

largest meal of the day, followed by a moderately large lunch, with an early

supper a distant third in size. This is the ideal, of course, and it is a

pretty generic statement for such a customized style of medicine, but there

it is.



So what is a good breakfast? I recommend that people (especially those with

this problem, and it is fairly common) make up some kind of porridge once a

week or so and heat some up each morning. The porridge could be oats or brown

rice with or w/o beans, curry, whatever. It could be barley, multi-grain,

whatever is substantial. You could add vegetables to it or just make up a

stew to begin with. The idea is to have some kind of substantial, fortifying

cooked meal. Many people's idea of breakfast is something quick, often cold

(cold cereal with milk is not so healthy after all), often sweet, or maybe

just coffee, or maybe nothing at all. Chinese medicine teaches that the

digestive system needs certain types of foods eaten certain ways to have a

dynamic, healthful balance.



I used to have this post-lunch energy dip. I could be running down the hall

at 1:30pm, and I would be nodding off. Since I began to eat as good of a

breakfast as I can manage, this problem has ceased. My patients mostly report

the same benefit. (Almost no one thing works for everyone; life is too

complex.) I suggest a book by Bob Flaws called "Arisal of the Clear"

available through Blue Poppy Press, Boulder, Colorado (303) 447-8372 for

about $11. It is intended for non-practitioners and is a pretty good overview

of Chinese medicine dietary recommendations. Though Flaws (and Chinese

medicine in general) recommends eating small amounts of meat and I personally

do not eat or recommend it at all, I still think his book is eminently sane.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:28:41 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "John L. Rouse" <jrouse@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: I'm gone as well!

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960909214028.00abe21c@mail.halcyon.com>



 Good grief, I'm away from the list for a short while and I return to

hundreds of useless messages from boring people bemoaning Paul and what

they perceive to be boorish behavior. Bull. I, for one, am sick to the

teeth of all these know-nothings ranting and raving. Whatever Paul's

personality quirks may be, he contributes to the list and provides

useful information, which is something these tedious moaners have never

done. As Ed pointed out in an earlier post, if you don't like it, sign

off. There's no need for you to post your sophomoric rants to  the list,

wasting the time of those of us who don't go bananas every time Paul

lets loose in a reply to a dolt, which is usually the case.

If you don't like the list, don't read it! Go knit a rug, or something...



John Rouse

====

John L. Rouse                  FAX: (301) 464-7027

Capital-Gazette Communications VOICE MAIL: (301) 262-3700

jrouse@dc.infi.net                         EXT. 200

jrouse@reporters.net           PACKET: ka3dbn@ka3rfe.md.usa



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:31:53 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Joan <alan_grout@SUNSHINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc



<snip>Since you have made this dialogue public, I have a few comments.





I don't understand how you can say that what a lot  of american society has

settled for is equivalent to health.

PMS, tiredness after eating, etc.  are only normal since somebody revised

the definition of

normal.



<snip>



>mighty big of you to assert that.  Particularly big of you considering

>that neither the original query, nor my response to it, had anything to do

>with you.

I don't really think Paul need defending... but why is it mighty big of him

to assert that? why should he  not respond?

>

>



>>

>> >Theoretically, I can agree with this, but it still strikes me as being

>> >somewhat daffy.  If someone is 'well' ie they feel great, look great, etc.

>> >then what is the POINT of finding out what they MAY have lost and how they

>> >could have felt even better.

I wonder why you  assert how well you feel and why you   pursue  a

discussion about how well you feel  with such vengeance if you are feeling

so well.





 If you told any of these people how they

>> >could feel super mega-'well' by just making a few changes, I'm sure most

>> >would just tell you to get lost.

I don't think that's accurate.

Maybe in the case of  people who are too weak to make changes.

 Isn't there something about a fountain of youth that people for centuries

have sought out? I guess they, too, wanted a quick fix...or no fix at all if

it was too much trouble. People are eternally looking for ways to feel better.



<snip>





>> The point is that a healer such as myself can TELL where their health is

>> corroding, but they aren't interested, and won't do anything about it

>> because they 'feel great.'



I'm going to give you an example.

My father says he feels fine. He has said that for years. Yet  a number of

years ago he had a heart attack and 5 by-pass surgery. The "hospital" fixed

him up....and sent him home. He said he felt fine, he felt  great. A year of

so later he had a mini stroke. The doctors fixed him up, and sent him home.

He said he felt great, no problems.  Six months later he had a TIA. The

doctors fixed him up and sent him home. Shortly thereafter he had another

spell of some sore. The hospital fixed him up and sent him home.  Ask him to

this day and he says he has always felt  fine. In between times he mostly

had no obvious ,to him,  symptoms. And these major symptoms didn't show up

until 75 years had come and gone.

 There has to be something  underlying  that is causing his problems, and

if it isn't addressed the outcome is obvious to most objective observers.



If there were some system around that had experience in recognizing patterns

that reoccur and knowing from that experience how to intervene before the

inevitable occurred, don't you think at least a few people would take

advantage of it if they found out about?

 I do, and, there is.







>obtained for nothing and 'fixed' only if needed.



I wonder how long Yang constituation people can flirt with catastrophe.. I'm

not sure, but  I think  my father is a Yang constitution...



 You've

>repackaged some odd version of, oh let's call it 'Mega-Health', and seek

>to convince your clients that this mega-health IS the one truly 'healthy'

>state of being.

I think it was rather generous of Paul to offer the tidbit of wisdom to this

person. You( along with the usual crowd) seem to be so hostile about his

advice. It seems to me, that it (Paul's advice) is offered in a take it or

leave it manner.



>> >I'm quite sure that the list has no more information about why yogurt is

>> >such an unhealthy choice than it did before you made the assertion



Re: aspartame

 It is rather naive to think aspartame is your passive friend. It can put

you in the hospital with excruciating pain...



Joan



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:26:05 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Sherm <sherman@OSWEGO.OSWEGO.EDU>

Subject:      Anything for a cough????

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960920173153.00668e84@sunshine.net>



hello,



I would like to know if there is anything i could use to stifle a cough.

I am a college student and several of my friends have this cough as well

as i.

thank you for any help.

sincerely,

______________________________________________________________________________

Daniel Sherman                  7445 Rt. 11             227 Riggs Hall

sherman@oswego.edu              Tully, NY 13159         Oswego, NY 13126

http://www.oswego.edu/~sherman  315-696-8379            315-341-2517

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:37:04 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Carlos Becerra Quiroz <esenio@TELNOR.NET>

Subject:      Re: herbs for vitality



At 02:00 PM 9/19/96 -0500, you wrote:

>hi -

>        what herbs are energy-giving? how can they be ingested?

>        thanks

>        caroline

>|| Sci-Fi! Caroline's reviews of all-time-best science fiction movies.

>|| Current : ANDROMEDA STRAIN [1971]. Michael Crichton's first.

>|| Open "http://sqn.com" or email "review@sqn.com". Enjoy!

>

>

>Hi everybody:

The best one, in my opinion, is Damiana de California (Turnera Difusa).



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:55:56 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Carlos Becerra Quiroz <esenio@TELNOR.NET>

Subject:      Re: Anything for a cough????



At 03:26 PM 9/20/96 -0400, you wrote:

>hello,

>

>I would like to know if there is anything i could use to stifle a cough.

>I am a college student and several of my friends have this cough as well

>as i.

>thank you for any help.

>sincerely,

>______________________________________________________________________________

>Daniel Sherman                  7445 Rt. 11             227 Riggs Hall

>sherman@oswego.edu              Tully, NY 13159         Oswego, NY 13126

>http://www.oswego.edu/~sherman  315-696-8379            315-341-2517

>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

>

>SANG BAI PI (Morus alba) is good for you, is a little "hot", for this is

good in this part of the year.

Hissopus Officinalis, Hisopo, is other herb that can help you.

Carlos

--------------------

thot@hotmail.com



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:20:12 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Anything for a cough????

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SOL.3.91.960920152259.14516A-100000@rocky-gw.oswego.edu>



>hello,

>

>I would like to know if there is anything i could use to stifle a cough.

>I am a college student and several of my friends have this cough as well

>as i.

>thank you for any help.

>sincerely,



Did you just come through the heat wave? Or are you in the damp zones?



Probably the coffee, if you are college students.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:15:39 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960920173153.00668e84@sunshine.net>



>PMS, tiredness after eating, etc.  are only normal since somebody revised

>the definition of normal.



Sure, that's the point. Cultures decide what is to be expected, and when

the culture is involved in patterns that are unhealthy that its major

system of medicine has NO solutions for that it is willing to dole out

while these problems are 'MINOR' (now that hysterectomizing twenty year old

girls is declasse), it simply redefines these patterns of ill health as

'normal.' What that means is: It isn't a disease as we recognize disease;

we don't treat illnesses that aren't disease; come back when it is disease."



> If you told any of these people how they

>>> >could feel super mega-'well' by just making a few changes, I'm sure most

>>> >would just tell you to get lost.

>I don't think that's accurate.

>Maybe in the case of  people who are too weak to make changes.

> Isn't there something about a fountain of youth that people for centuries

>have sought out? I guess they, too, wanted a quick fix...or no fix at all if

>it was too much trouble. People are eternally looking for ways to feel better.



Well, the point is that YIN CONSTITUTION people, and women in general, are

always looking for solutions to their variable vitality. Yang constitution

people do not. The solutions that Yang constitution people come across were

developed in Chinese healing as well: purging, emesis, sweats (and fasting,

though the Chinese didn't develop this therapeutically since it was a

reliable political reality anyhow <g>). And these solutions to the

Excess-natured problems of Yang individuals FAIL MISERABLY when applied to

Yin individuals.



In this society, the Yin constitution is common. And perhaps it has always

been common in urban societies that offer mental alternatives to physical

activity.



>>> The point is that a healer such as myself can TELL where their health is

>>> corroding, but they aren't interested, and won't do anything about it

>>> because they 'feel great.'

>

>I'm going to give you an example.

>My father says he feels fine. He has said that for years. Yet  a number of

>years ago he had a heart attack and 5 by-pass surgery. The "hospital" fixed

>him up....and sent him home. He said he felt fine, he felt  great. A year of

>so later he had a mini stroke. The doctors fixed him up, and sent him home.

>He said he felt great, no problems.  Six months later he had a TIA. The

>doctors fixed him up and sent him home. Shortly thereafter he had another

>spell of some sore. The hospital fixed him up and sent him home.  Ask him to

>this day and he says he has always felt  fine. In between times he mostly

>had no obvious ,to him,  symptoms. And these major symptoms didn't show up

>until 75 years had come and gone.



The perfect example of a Yang individual. They're 'fine' even when the seat

of their pants is caught on a fence and they're going to freeze to death in

a Missouri blizzard.



> There has to be something  underlying  that is causing his problems, and

>if it isn't addressed the outcome is obvious to most objective observers.

>

>If there were some system around that had experience in recognizing patterns

>that reoccur and knowing from that experience how to intervene before the

>inevitable occurred, don't you think at least a few people would take

>advantage of it if they found out about?

> I do, and, there is.



Indeed, even for the Yang individual, if they would be interested in

listening and practicing some modifications EVEN IF they do so only as

prophylaxis that they don't experience the benefits of, and may NEVER

experience the benefits of, because they never go down the destructive road

they would have gone down.



>>obtained for nothing and 'fixed' only if needed.

>

>I wonder how long Yang constituation people can flirt with catastrophe.



All their lives, most of them. And good for them! The point is mainly that

those of us who don't have their vitality FROM BIRTH shouldn't emulate

their rather 'abandoned' approach to health keeping.



> You've

>>repackaged some odd version of, oh let's call it 'Mega-Health', and seek

>>to convince your clients that this mega-health IS the one truly 'healthy'

>>state of being.



I didn't read this post, because it began by mischaracterizing what I have

said to such a degree. You are reading your own projections. Now that I

have read excerpts, I will simply say again that you are not the subject of

my concerns. I have treated many people with Yang constitutions, and they

are in general a crude bunch who 'power through' their illnesses, and are

blind to the implications over time, simply because they view the world as

essentially an act of will, and people who fall ill (or fall under the

'spell' of a healer) as essentially weak-willed. And that mostly works for

them.



Even Joan, who I happen to treat, asked me to intercede with her father,

and I told her that very little could be done, mainly because the attitude

is not there. He'll never report if the herbs are working in any case,

because he simply doesn't notice, or if he notices he won't credit the

herbs!



This is why Chinese healing has the sophisticated model it does: because it

looked past those initial, Naturopathic, solutions, and determined that was

was being treated was the occasional defects in people of high vitality,

and that this was only a small fraction of the people who needed healing.

And then they went on to develop the Boosting strategies that mark Chinese

healing as the MAIN system of herbal healing on this earth.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:27:37 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Anything for a cough????

In-Reply-To:  <199609201955.MAA04145@telnor.net>



>>SANG BAI PI (Morus alba) is good for you, is a little "hot", for this is

>good in this part of the year.

>Hissopus Officinalis, Hisopo, is other herb that can help you.

>Carlos

>--------------------

>thot@hotmail.com



Excuse me? Morus is a Cold herb. Hyssop is an Acrid, Warm herb. So you

intend to treat this cough without any diagnosis, and then with two

opposite herbs? Buenos suerte.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:35:43 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <960920142508_313500957@emout12.mail.aol.com>



Well, I am going to have to disagree with some of this...



>My teachers taught me that Chinese medicine believes a good, nourishing

>breakfast is essential for most people and that it should ideally be the

>largest meal of the day, followed by a moderately large lunch, with an early

>supper a distant third in size.



That is not a traditional view per se. Large breakfasts come in traditional

cultures AFTER considerable physical labor. In this culture, with weakened

Digestions on all sides, very few people have the sort of Digestive Qi

needed to handle a large breakfast.



The larger dinner is appropriate to this culture, since people have

electric lights and stay up later.



>So what is a good breakfast? I recommend that people (especially those with

>this problem, and it is fairly common) make up some kind of porridge once a

>week or so and heat some up each morning. The porridge could be oats or brown

>rice with or w/o beans, curry, whatever. It could be barley, multi-grain,

>whatever is substantial. You could add vegetables to it or just make up a

>stew to begin with. The idea is to have some kind of substantial, fortifying

>cooked meal.



I find that soup with bread and some sort of protein (an egg or two) is a

much better idea. Grain porriges are Damp, and too hard to Digest for most

people.



>Many people's idea of breakfast is something quick, often cold

>(cold cereal with milk is not so healthy after all),



Cold cereal and milk is a decent breakfast for someone who tends to

Depleted Yin Stomach Heat, which is also common in this culture.



>often sweet, or maybe

>just coffee, or maybe nothing at all. Chinese medicine teaches that the

>digestive system needs certain types of foods eaten certain ways to have a

>dynamic, healthful balance.



I don't accept that statement. One of Flaws' underlying point is the one

made by Chinese healing: that diet is a simple affair, which is mainly a

process of managing Damp, Sweet, and Cold principles in the diet, while

consuming nourishing food. The perversities of food therapy developed MUCH

later, and are an unnecessary burden on the already worried minds of the

current populace. Worry is already the sign of weak Digestion...worrying

people further, such as the health food industry did/does, is not

appropriate. Understanding, not heavy regimes of food combining and food

worry, are the key.



>Though Flaws (and Chinese

>medicine in general) recommends eating small amounts of meat and I personally

>do not eat or recommend it at all, I still think his book is eminently sane.



Indeed, animal foods are a MAJOR part of the medicinal dietary

recommendations of the tradition.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:05:29 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960920173153.00668e84@sunshine.net>



On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Joan wrote:



>

> I don't understand how you can say that what a lot  of american society has

> settled for is equivalent to health.

> PMS, tiredness after eating, etc.  are only normal since somebody revised

> the definition of

> normal.



I can say it is because by some definitions it is.  I don't believe

anybody decides what is normal for anybody except themselves.  If I was

born a hunchback hermaphroditic dwarf with a lisp and am ok with it, who

is anybody to tell me that I am a freak.  Incidentally, I am not a

hunchback hermaphroditic dwarf with a lisp..that was just an example.



>

> <snip>

>

> >mighty big of you to assert that.  Particularly big of you considering

> >that neither the original query, nor my response to it, had anything to do

> >with you.

> I don't really think Paul need defending... but why is it mighty big of him

> to assert that? why should he  not respond?



I've already stated before that I am glad he responds.  It just struck me

as odd that he was proclaiming that an exchange between myself and another

person MIGHT serve a purpose.



> >> >Theoretically, I can agree with this, but it still strikes me as being

> >> >somewhat daffy.  If someone is 'well' ie they feel great, look great, etc.

> >> >then what is the POINT of finding out what they MAY have lost and how they

> >> >could have felt even better.

> I wonder why you  assert how well you feel and why you   pursue  a

> discussion about how well you feel  with such vengeance if you are feeling

> so well.



The discuswsion isn't about how *I* feel.  The discussion is about why how

I feel doesn't seem to be good enough for some people.  It's also a

discussion about at what point various people feel that healing needs to

begin taking place.  I think it is a pretty good topic with wide-ranging

interest.  If you think I am carrying on this conversation to discuss how

I feel, then I think you've been missing the point.



>

>

>  If you told any of these people how they

> >> >could feel super mega-'well' by just making a few changes, I'm sure most

> >> >would just tell you to get lost.

> I don't think that's accurate.

> Maybe in the case of  people who are too weak to make changes.



I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with 'weakness'.  It is

just a matter of a 'why bother' attitude that people possess.



>  Isn't there something about a fountain of youth that people for centuries

> have sought out? I guess they, too, wanted a quick fix...or no fix at all if

> it was too much trouble. People are eternally looking for ways to feel better.

>



Yes, people have sought a 'fountain of youth' for centuries and to what

end?  Noone has found it, to my knowledge.  People are still born, live,

and then eventually die.  I am not interested in immortality and I am not

interested in extending my life if it means a major alteration in the

quality of the life I am living.  Eating and drinking are major components

of a person's life and are extremely pleasurable, one of the few pleasures

that life has to offer.  The thought of waking up every morning to a big

bowl of porridge doesn't exactly make my taste buds soar.



> <snip>

>

>

> >> The point is that a healer such as myself can TELL where their health is

> >> corroding, but they aren't interested, and won't do anything about it

> >> because they 'feel great.'

>

> I'm going to give you an example.

> My father says he feels fine. He has said that for years. Yet  a number of

> years ago he had a heart attack and 5 by-pass surgery. The "hospital" fixed

> him up....and sent him home. He said he felt fine, he felt  great. A year of

> so later he had a mini stroke. The doctors fixed him up, and sent him home.

> He said he felt great, no problems.  Six months later he had a TIA. The

> doctors fixed him up and sent him home. Shortly thereafter he had another

> spell of some sore. The hospital fixed him up and sent him home.  Ask him to

> this day and he says he has always felt  fine. In between times he mostly

> had no obvious ,to him,  symptoms. And these major symptoms didn't show up

> until 75 years had come and gone.

>  There has to be something  underlying  that is causing his problems, and

> if it isn't addressed the outcome is obvious to most objective observers.

>



i'm sorry to hear about all the problems your father has had.  I think,

however, that the underlying problem here is that he is old.  He lived for

seventy five years 'symptom-free' (and I assume happy during those years).

Had he lived his life differently, as far as diet, chances are he would

still be approaching death.  Maybe he would have lived longer and maybe he

wouldn't have.  If I were in your position, I would be asking myself

whether or not he led a good life and be celebrating that, rather than

merely grasping at straws to keep him living a little bit longer.





>

>  You've

> >repackaged some odd version of, oh let's call it 'Mega-Health', and seek

> >to convince your clients that this mega-health IS the one truly 'healthy'

> >state of being.

> I think it was rather generous of Paul to offer the tidbit of wisdom to this

> person. You( along with the usual crowd) seem to be so hostile about his

> advice. It seems to me, that it (Paul's advice) is offered in a take it or

> leave it manner.



Once again, I am not hostile toward Paul in the least.  I smile as I read

Paul's posts, and I am still smiling when I respond back.  Of course the

advice Paul gives is offered in a take it or leave it manner.  What I am

doing is *discussing*, which is the point of a *discussion* list.  Just as

Paul offers his wisdom from his take on healthfullness, I am doing the

same thing.



>

> >> >I'm quite sure that the list has no more information about why yogurt is

> >> >such an unhealthy choice than it did before you made the assertion

>

> Re: aspartame

>  It is rather naive to think aspartame is your passive friend. It can put

> you in the hospital with excruciating pain...

>



Lots of innocuous things can land you in the hospital with excruciating

pain.  I'm not going to omit the nails when I build my house because I am

afraid I might step on one, however.



> Joan

>



___



-C

               ___

|_|___                              _______________|_|

|_||_|       The Elements           |_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_|______________________________|_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_|Ah, love. The walks over soft grass, the smiles |_|

|_|over candlelight, the arguments over just about |_|

|_|everything else.  |_||_||_| -Max Headroom |_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_|

      __________________________________________

      |_|cbendix@nunic.nu.edu |_||_||_||_||_||_|

      |_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:20:41 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         jonathan treasure <jonno@TELEPORT.COM>

Subject:      Contraindications - was contradictions



>I am interested in purchasing a book that will explain what herbs are bad

>for certain conditions. The only one I know anything about is Rosemary, my

>grandmother has to avoid it because of her high blood pressure and that I

>found out by pure luck.



Depending on your general background level of physiological knowledge, a

very useful pamphlet on

herbal contraindications and pharmaceutical medicine/herb interactions by

Michael Moore is available on his web site.



jonathan



 jonathan treasure <jonno@teleport.com>

_______________________________________________

"Organ transplants are best left to the professionals" - Bart Simpson



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:21:35 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         bill jackson <jackson@NR.INFI.NET>

Subject:      kidney infection



Hi all,

I hope someone will be able to help me. I had had kidney problems in the

past and I feel another bout is coming on. My symtons are pain in my left

side, just above the hip bone, but towards my back. (it is increasing in

intensity) Also, feeling of fatigue and slight fever. I have begun drinking

craberry juice and I will get some black cherry juice tomorrw. I also will

get some cranberry tablets. Other than that I am not quite sure what to do.

I now am the proud owner of 3 herbal books, but I cannot get a clear

understanding of how to treat myself. Any info would be appreciated, as I am

getting more and more uncomfortable.

Thank ou,

Gerri



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:49:34 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         linda/richard <kyote@WOLFENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection



----------

From:   bill jackson[SMTP:jackson@NR.INFI.NET]

Sent:   Friday, September 20, 1996 6:21 PM

To:     Multiple recipients of list HERB

Subject:        kidney infection



Hi all,

I hope someone will be able to help me. I had had kidney problems in the

past and I feel another bout is coming on. My symtons are pain in my left

side, just above the hip bone, but towards my back. (it is increasing in

intensity) Also, feeling of fatigue and slight fever. I have begun drinking

craberry juice and I will get some black cherry juice tomorrw. I also will

get some cranberry tablets. Other than that I am not quite sure what to do.

I now am the proud owner of 3 herbal books, but I cannot get a clear

understanding of how to treat myself. Any info would be appreciated, as I am

getting more and more uncomfortable.

Thank ou,

Gerri





you need to get checked out by a professional!!! this could be a serious

condition that's not suitable for self treatment. get a diagnosis first and then

decide if your capable of self treatment.

there's an old 'saying' that goes like this: he who acts as his own doctor

has a fool for a patient.

be careful

richard



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:54:48 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         bill jackson <jackson@NR.INFI.NET>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection



Richard,

I absolutely intend on going to my doctor, the problem is that she is not in

until Monday. Unless this gets alot worse before then I feel as though I can

wait. I have been thru this about 5 times in the last 7 or so years, and I

am trying to find out what I can do with herbs as well as with traditional

medicine. I avoid caffeine (sp?), chocolate, sugars, tea, everything I am

supposed to. Is there anything I can do to prevent this from happening

again? Everything I read says to treat the problem not the symtoms, what is

my problem? What causes kidney infections? Is stress a related factor? Can I

try cornsilk and marshmallow? Sorry for so many ???? but I am a beginner,

have pity on me :))

Gerri



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 20:02:39 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection



If you are looking into anything to take for your problem please make sure

to investigate the item thouroughly.  Many times doctors are unfamiliar with

a particular herb or are unable to come up with a "single cause" for your

ailment.  Anything that you may take is easy to learn about.  If you have a

search engine then you can look for the item and various view of it.  (Pro,

Con, Statistical, Personal).  Try various search engines and look up as much

as you can. Again I will plug Bastyr for their fabulous resources.



One thing I would look for in myself if I were worried about my kidneys is

the color of my urine.  Is it very very dark?  Is it too light?  I may be

getting insufficient or too much water or liquids.  Maybe something I ate or

drank is causing the problem?  Talk with your doctor on common kidney

ailments.  Don't wait until you are seriously in trouble to communicate with

your doctor or health care provider.  Maybe your insurance will cover a

preventitive visit?



Try to regulate your diet with items that won't put strain on your kidneys

and remember that emotional and physical stress can amplify so many

problems.  If you find it difficult to take time for excersize maybe you

could look for some easy to do breathing and stretching techniques to help

reduce the stress your mind and body must deal with daily.  Plan ahead when

dealing with stress in your life.  I love to take walks when I find myself

stressed.  I try to regulate my breathing and relax tense muscles.



But that is just from someone who is "trying":O)



RON



abc@televar.com



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 23:10:34 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Kathy Lingo <Lingo4@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Anything for a cough????



There is a homeopathic cough formula called Similisan Cough I, II, III that

address different types of coughs. They can be found in most good health food

stores and I have never seen them fail to work for my customers or me. It is

liquid that you sprinkle down your throat, tastes terrible, but you do stop

coughing. One bad flu epidemic year, it was the only thing that allowed me to

sleep.



Wishing you wellness,



Kathy



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 23:01:59 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Joco Cardoso <rodas@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: I'm gone as well!



Sure but, the list should be renamed "Paul's Flames"



@@@@@@@@@@@@                    Adeus!                       @@@@@@@@@@@@





On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:28:41 -0400 "John L. Rouse" <jrouse@CAPACCESS.ORG>

writes:

> Good grief, I'm away from the list for a short while and I return to

>hundreds of useless messages from boring people bemoaning Paul and

>what

>they perceive to be boorish behavior. Bull. I, for one, am sick to the

>teeth of all these know-nothings ranting and raving. Whatever Paul's

>personality quirks may be, he contributes to the list and provides

>useful information, which is something these tedious moaners have

>never

>done. As Ed pointed out in an earlier post, if you don't like it, sign

>off. There's no need for you to post your sophomoric rants to  the

>list,

>wasting the time of those of us who don't go bananas every time Paul

>lets loose in a reply to a dolt, which is usually the case.

>If you don't like the list, don't read it! Go knit a rug, or

>something...

>

>John Rouse

>====

>John L. Rouse                  FAX: (301) 464-7027

>Capital-Gazette Communications VOICE MAIL: (301) 262-3700

>jrouse@dc.infi.net                         EXT. 200

>jrouse@reporters.net           PACKET: ka3dbn@ka3rfe.md.usa

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 20:13:31 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: Anything for a cough????



Hey you might look for information on Ginger and Golden Seal for throat and

lungs.



What kind of cough is it?  A dry cough or a cough that produces Phlem?  Is

the cough rattling in your chest?  Does your chest ache?  How long have you

had the cough?



I usually wait a few weeks if it is a mild cough.  If it lasts longer I go

to a health care provider and ask his opinion.  All though if the cough is

painful, I am coughing up blood or the phlem, if any is produced, is very

dark and has an odor I go immediately for a health care provider's opinion.



A cough may also be associated with ear problems.



I would make sure I avoid unnecessary exposure to environmental pollution.

i.e. Bars with smokey atmospheres, long exposure to car exhast or sprays or

airconditioning.  All of which may irritate the throat.



Thats not advice but experience.



Ron



abc@televar.com



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 20:30:21 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc



>Help me out here people.  Should I be offended?  I think he just called me

>a fool!



Don't be offended just take it all with a grain of salt.  I am wrong in

making comments on Paul's Opinion and I should maybe read more.

I am trying hard myself to learn new things and try new ideas.  I think that

as we realize that some herbs are crap and some herbs are helpful we begin

to seek out more helpful material and we begin to readjust our lifestyles.

I found that I suffered from lethargy after eating.  The sevarity and

duration of the spells depended greatly on the foods I ate.  Also the time I

ate certain foods influenced my body for hours after having eaten.  ( I have

found my digestion process takes 4 to 6 hours depending on the food and

state of my body)

I try to consume foods that pose the least amount of fatigue and promote the

feeling of wellnes and comfort.  Some herbs are good at helping the

digestive process. None of which I take with the excpetion of Parsley in a

drink I make for the pee potential. You might add herbs that will help you

regain proper digestion.

Raw Vegies are my favorite for good digestion.

I try to use a good Olive Oil in my cooking or even just to take two

tablespoons a day to help my liver produce bile which helps in

elumlsification of fats in the Upper intestine. Not to mention for the

essential faty oils my diet has always lacked in.  I prefer a Cold Processed

Olive Oil.  Napolean makes a great one.  It also serves as a great base for

making up tasty salad dressing with fresh Garlic and Oregano.



I am constantly challenging myself to be more and more aware of my health.

It takes people like Paul to give us an idea of the paths others choose and

paths we may choose too.  As I grow older I learn and when I die for what

ever reason I die I will have died trying and maybe in the next existence I

will get to start off where I left off.



Ron



abc@televar.com

.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 23:34:04 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         bill jackson <jackson@NR.INFI.NET>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection



>One thing I would look for in myself if I were worried about my kidneys is

>the color of my urine.  Is it very very dark?  Is it too light?  I may be

>getting insufficient or too much water or liquids.  Maybe something I ate or

>drank is causing the problem?  Talk with your doctor on common kidney

>ailments.  Don't wait until you are seriously in trouble to communicate with

>your doctor or health care provider.  Maybe your insurance will cover a

>preventitive visit?



Ron,

This is something I do look at. Right now it is pale, not dark. When I

notice it becoming dark I know to start increasing my liquid intake. I am

trying to think of all the food I have recently eaten. Nothing different or

unusual. Is there an herbal preventative? I have found that cranberry

tablets help alittle. I was told by my midwife (I am not pregnant at the

moment, but had a terrible UTI while pregnant 3.5mos ago) that I would have

to drink ridiculous amounts of juice to come close to the tablets. I am very

lucky to have a health practitioner that is very open minded, she will be

able to recommend something to go along with the allopathic treatment when I

call her Monday (or sooner depending on how I feel). Until then, do you have

any suggestion? I will follow your previous advise also.

Thank you,

Gerri



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 23:42:13 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Kathy Lingo <Lingo4@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection



Gerri,



Yes, you definitely should see a doctor for diagnosis as soon as

possible--there are several different kinds of kidney/bladder

infections/problems. And you need to know which it is before you can decide

on a course of treatment.



Temporary measures: A homeopathic called Cantharis will give some immediate

help if there is burning during urination. Also an herb extract called

pipsissewa will help keep things flushed out.



The Prescriptions for Nutritional Healing by Dr. Balch suggests the

following:

*8oz. glass of distilled water ever hour you are awake,

acidophilus 3 X daily,

*Vit. B6, 50 mg. 3 X daily (plus Inositol & Choline, to reduce fluid

retention (also Natures Way has a KB combination that is a good herbal

diuretic),

*Vit. C w/Bioflavenoids, 2000 to 4000 mg. per day to acidify the urine,

*Dandelion Root & Pumpkin Ext. to aid in excretion of kidney waste products.



It goes on and on, but the above are in the "essential, very important &

important" categories.



Additional notes:

Drink one quart of marshmallow tea daily to strengthen bladder, cleanse

bladder & kidneys, & expel kidney stones.

Women who suffer from recurrent bladder infections should not use tampons &

should always wear cotton underwear--never nylon.



Also, I don't know how the experts hereon feel about it, but if I thought I

needed an antibiotic and was unable to access my doctor, I would utilize

Colloidal Silver (health food store)--expensive, but seems to have all the

benefits of antibiotics w/o the usual side effects.



Please do check it out with your doctor. My neice had recurrent bladder and

eventually kidney infections and found out she had kidney stones.



Wishing you wellness,



Kathy



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 20:45:24 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         linda/richard <kyote@WOLFENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection



At 09:54 PM 9/20/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Richard,

>I absolutely intend on going to my doctor, the problem is that she is not in

>until Monday. Unless this gets alot worse before then I feel as though I can

>wait. I have been thru this about 5 times in the last 7 or so years, and I

>am trying to find out what I can do with herbs as well as with traditional

>medicine. I avoid caffeine (sp?), chocolate, sugars, tea, everything I am

>supposed to. Is there anything I can do to prevent this from happening

>again? Everything I read says to treat the problem not the symtoms, what is

>my problem? What causes kidney infections? Is stress a related factor? Can I

>try cornsilk and marshmallow? Sorry for so many ???? but I am a beginner,

>have pity on me :))

>Gerri



gerri;

are you sure this is a kidney infection and not a bladder infection?

have you had bladder infections?

how were they treated?



i can't tell you more because i don't know enough about you and your condition.



what other health issues, concerns do you have?



richard



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 20:53:11 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection



Everything in moderation.



Isn't cranberry's hard on your kidneys? I will look as im out hunting around.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:35:35 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU>

Subject:      Where I'm coming from.  Was Re: Energy herbs, etc

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960921033021.006a8608@pop.televar.com>



On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Ron Robertson wrote:



> >Help me out here people.  Should I be offended?  I think he just called me

> >a fool!

>

> Don't be offended just take it all with a grain of salt.  I am wrong in

> making comments on Paul's Opinion and I should maybe read more.

> I am trying hard myself to learn new things and try new ideas.  I think that

> as we realize that some herbs are crap and some herbs are helpful we begin

> to seek out more helpful material and we begin to readjust our lifestyles.



I guess the point I have been trying to make, though not necessarily

coming right out and saying it is that I perceive a lot of people, both on

this list and elsewhere, are in some sense OVERMEDICATING themselves not

only in response to immediate health crises but in ANTICIPATION of things

that might come up later.  I realize this is that person's choice, but my

concern is that people are becoming so involved with keeping their bodies

in such perfect condition (whatever that is) and spending so much time,

physical and emotion energy on it, that they are missing out on the

business of enjoying life.  It is as if people are in slave to their

bodies, rather than the rulers of them.



It seems that people would rather 40 herbs in rapdi succession and at

precisely the right time each day in order that they can avoid taking an

aspirin once a month, when a headache comes up.  I'm sorry, I guess I

am just hopelessly indoctrinated with the western theory of medicine, but

to me, this is just lunacy.



i've seen some of the recommended and taboo foods, as set forth by the

expert 'healers' on the list, and it mostly just so bland.  You might as

well just develop some sort of Chinese Medicine_ok food pellets with

instructions to eat them at preset intervals during the day.  WHo knows.

maybe they already exist.



As for Paul, who I hesitate to mention simply because everybody else does,

I have nothing but respect for him.  He is obviously a very intelligent

man and well-versed in his field of expertise.  I have posted

previously and have blasted people who have dismissed him based on his

lakc of social graces.  I think they are silly.  Needless to say, I do

not like the mail I have received in which people are perceiving me as

'yet another Paul basher'.  Yes I did take exception

when he made the blanket statement that "YOGURT ISN"T HEALTHY.  PERIOD."

Same with caffeine or other stimulants. Within the framework he professes,

it might be true, but isn't true for others who have a different idea of

what 'healthy' is.  I also continue to believe that the medicine he

preaches and the 'health' goals he seeks are also excessive.  However,

this being a DISCUSSION list, I have no qualms about voicing my

oppositions.  His word is not gospel and is up for scrutiny just as mine

or anyone else's is.  My criticisms of Paul have been civil and rational

(IMHO) and I'm not apologizing for any of them.



Sincerely,







-C



ps.  thanks to those who've sent POSITIVE mail to me.

___                                                ___

|_|___                              _______________|_|

|_||_|       The Elements           |_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_|______________________________|_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_|Ah, love. The walks over soft grass, the smiles |_|

|_|over candlelight, the arguments over just about |_|

|_|everything else.  |_||_||_| -Max Headroom |_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_|

      __________________________________________

      |_|cbendix@nunic.nu.edu |_||_||_||_||_||_|

      |_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 22:24:32 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Carlos Becerra Quiroz <esenio@TELNOR.NET>

Subject:      Re: Anything for a cough????



At 01:27 PM 9/20/96 -0700, you wrote:

>>>SANG BAI PI (Morus alba) is good for you, is a little "hot", for this is

>>good in this part of the year.

>>Hissopus Officinalis, Hisopo, is other herb that can help you.

>>Carlos

>>--------------------

>>thot@hotmail.com

>

>Excuse me? Morus is a Cold herb. Hyssop is an Acrid, Warm herb. So you

>intend to treat this cough without any diagnosis, and then with two

>opposite herbs? Buenos suerte.

>

>Paul

>

>I am not a M.D., ONLY the M.D. diagnosis. The Herbal Theraphist ONLY

recomend. With knowledge shure. Are you M.D.?

I am shure you know "The Herb Society's Complete Medicinal Herbal. Sang Bai

Pi, is a Hot Herb, for that, refresh the body in the natural oposite efect.

In the way, I had learned very much of yours concepts. I read your posts

with pleasure.

Carlos.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 22:52:59 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Carlos Becerra Quiroz <esenio@TELNOR.NET>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection



>Ron,

>This is something I do look at. Right now it is pale, not dark. When I

>notice it becoming dark I know to start increasing my liquid intake. I am

>trying to think of all the food I have recently eaten. Nothing different or

>unusual. Is there an herbal preventative? I have found that cranberry

>tablets help alittle. I was told by my midwife (I am not pregnant at the

>moment, but had a terrible UTI while pregnant 3.5mos ago) that I would have

>to drink ridiculous amounts of juice to come close to the tablets. I am very

>lucky to have a health practitioner that is very open minded, she will be

>able to recommend something to go along with the allopathic treatment when I

>call her Monday (or sooner depending on how I feel). Until then, do you have

>any suggestion? I will follow your previous advise also.

>Thank you,

>Gerri

>

>May I, Paul?

I suggest try until Monday, "Equisetum Arvense." (Horse-tail) and (or)

"Urtica Album" ((White deadnettle), like a tea, but four or five cups dialy.

Propolis (sorry I don't know the name in Inglish) is a good "antibiotic",

natural, herbal, and don't dangerous "antibiotic".

I hope this help you.

Carlos.

Dont forget see your doctor.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 00:11:28 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU>

Subject:      Just out of curiosity...

In-Reply-To:  <199609210524.WAA06497@telnor.net>



This whole Chinese medicine vs. western medicine debate got me curious

about life expectancy rates in China vs. AMerica, so I consulted my World

Almanac.



According to this, the life expectancy for a child born in 1992 (the most

current year listed) in China is 69 if you are a male and 72 if you are a

female.  The life expectancy rate for a child born in 1992 in America is

72 if you are male and 79 if you are female.  In Canada, it is even

higher.  74 for males and *81* for females.  (Way to go, Canada!)



What am I missing here?  I'd have expected the chinese life expectancy to

have beeen equal to ours or to exceed it given all the glowing lip service

Chinese medicine is paid on this list.  I know statistics can be

deceptive, but this seems pretty straightforward.  Any comments?







-C









 ___

___ |_|___                              _______________|_|

|_||_|       The Elements           |_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_|______________________________|_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_|Ah, love. The walks over soft grass, the smiles |_|

|_|over candlelight, the arguments over just about |_|

|_|everything else.  |_||_||_| -Max Headroom |_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_|

      __________________________________________

      |_|cbendix@nunic.nu.edu |_||_||_||_||_||_|

      |_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 01:06:15 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960921015448.0066927c@nr.infi.net>



>Richard,

>I absolutely intend on going to my doctor, the problem is that she is not in

>until Monday. Unless this gets alot worse before then I feel as though I can

>wait. I have been thru this about 5 times in the last 7 or so years, and I

>am trying to find out what I can do with herbs as well as with traditional

>medicine. I avoid caffeine (sp?), chocolate, sugars, tea, everything I am

>supposed to. Is there anything I can do to prevent this from happening

>again? Everything I read says to treat the problem not the symtoms, what is

>my problem? What causes kidney infections? Is stress a related factor? Can I

>try cornsilk and marshmallow? Sorry for so many ???? but I am a beginner,

>have pity on me :))

>Gerri



Cornsilk, yes. What is your usual sense of body temperature? Does your skin

seem dry to you? Do you get stomach pains? Do you feel excessively tired at

times? Consume large quantities of water, and avoid any sort of hot

application (like hot showers).



I would tend to recommend AGAINST cranberry juice for a chronic kidney

infection...that herb is better for bladder infection. Try golden seal (or

barberry). Gentian might be a choice also.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 01:12:30 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection

In-Reply-To:  <960920234213_107045673@emout06.mail.aol.com>



>Also, I don't know how the experts hereon feel about it, but if I thought I

>needed an antibiotic and was unable to access my doctor, I would utilize

>Colloidal Silver (health food store)--expensive, but seems to have all the

>benefits of antibiotics w/o the usual side effects.



Just flat untrue.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 01:14:28 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960921034524.00674e1c@popserv.wolfenet.com>



>gerri;

>are you sure this is a kidney infection and not a bladder infection?

>have you had bladder infections?



Pain in the low back near the hip bones, and fever, with a history of

kidney infections? That's no bladder infection.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 01:23:38 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Anything for a cough????

In-Reply-To:  <199609210524.WAA06497@telnor.net>



>>Excuse me? Morus is a Cold herb.



>>I am not a M.D., ONLY the M.D. diagnosis. The Herbal Theraphist ONLY

>recomend. With knowledge shure. Are you M.D.?

>I am shure you know "The Herb Society's Complete Medicinal Herbal. Sang Bai

>Pi, is a Hot Herb, for that, refresh the body in the natural oposite efect.

>In the way, I had learned very much of yours concepts. I read your posts

>with pleasure.

>Carlos.



I am not an M.D., I am an unlicenced herbalist. Morus, white mulberry, is a

Cold herbal. It is very useful for treating Hot conditions, and is commonly

found in formulas to treat Kidney and Liver Heat. IT IS NOT A HOT HERB.

Whatever book you got that out of, it is WRONG.



Oh, and 'mucho gusto, y gracias.'



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 01:36:53 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Where I'm coming from.  Was Re: Energy herbs, etc

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.92.960920203458.23850A-100000@nunic.nu.edu>



>On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Ron Robertson wrote:

>

>> >Help me out here people.  Should I be offended?  I think he just called me

>> >a fool!

>>

>> Don't be offended just take it all with a grain of salt.  I am wrong in

>> making comments on Paul's Opinion and I should maybe read more.

>> I am trying hard myself to learn new things and try new ideas.  I think that

>> as we realize that some herbs are crap and some herbs are helpful we begin

>> to seek out more helpful material and we begin to readjust our lifestyles.



For the record, I was not calling you a fool. The Dao De Jing was. And in

that sense, many of us are fools, because we don't recognize our

relationship to spirit even though we use it constantly. But on to other

matters....



>I guess the point I have been trying to make, though not necessarily

>coming right out and saying it is that I perceive a lot of people, both on

>this list and elsewhere, are in some sense OVERMEDICATING themselves not

>only in response to immediate health crises but in ANTICIPATION of things

>that might come up later.  I realize this is that person's choice, but my

>concern is that people are becoming so involved with keeping their bodies

>in such perfect condition (whatever that is) and spending so much time,

>physical and emotion energy on it, that they are missing out on the

>business of enjoying life.  It is as if people are in slave to their

>bodies, rather than the rulers of them.



Not really. The Yin constitution person simply has more health complaints,

and therefore needs more attention.



>It seems that people would rather 40 herbs in rapdi succession and at

>precisely the right time each day in order that they can avoid taking an

>aspirin once a month, when a headache comes up.  I'm sorry, I guess I

>am just hopelessly indoctrinated with the western theory of medicine, but

>to me, this is just lunacy.



The point is not to take a range of herbs, but to correct the imbalance

that is causing the headache. I have friends who take aspirin every day,

RATHER than change what is ailing them. Surely you don't suggest this as

the option?



I am certainly ALWAYS arguing on this list for simpler solutions, good

diagnoses, and MORE FOCUS. So on this count, we agree.



>i've seen some of the recommended and taboo foods, as set forth by the

>expert 'healers' on the list, and it mostly just so bland.  You might as

>well just develop some sort of Chinese Medicine_ok food pellets with

>instructions to eat them at preset intervals during the day.  WHo knows.

>maybe they already exist.



Bland? Not from me you haven't. The dietary recommendations I have made

here accomodate all the cutures on the earth, AND THEIR WONDERFUL FOOD. You

haven't heard this from me...perhaps you have heard it from "you"?



>As for Paul, who I hesitate to mention simply because everybody else does,

>I have nothing but respect for him.  He is obviously a very intelligent

>man and well-versed in his field of expertise.  I have posted

>previously and have blasted people who have dismissed him based on his

>lakc of social graces.  I think they are silly.  Needless to say, I do

>not like the mail I have received in which people are perceiving me as

>'yet another Paul basher'.  Yes I did take exception

>when he made the blanket statement that "YOGURT ISN"T HEALTHY.  PERIOD."



Again, I didn't say that, so don't put quotes around your misconstrual of

my statements, thank you very much.



Fruit at the bottom yogurt is not a good lunch. Period.



Now you can quote me. As you yourself said, you eat it as a TREAT.

Obviously, treats are not a great danger to anyone, if indeed they are very

occasional. But many people follow your logic, and eat these things daily

to their detriment. Not everyone is configured the way you are.



I had a Yang constitution client who believed in eating an ENTIRE head

lettuce for breakfast, with dressing. If the people on this list try this

as an experiment, half of the women will be insane by week's end,

guaranteed. He showed no ill effects. In fact, he worked a week's worth of

twenty hour days once, vomited some blood and layed on his back for a

weekend, and was back at work on Monday! Now THAT'S a Yang constitution!



>Same with caffeine or other stimulants. Within the framework he professes,

>it might be true, but isn't true for others who have a different idea of

>what 'healthy' is.



Nope. There is a DIRECT link between stimulants and ill health. You may not

notice yours, but the negative health effects are measurable, easily

observed, easily reported by those who have ceased that habit, and totally

noncontroversial EXCEPT among people who take stimulants daily, and the

companies that push stimulants.



>I also continue to believe that the medicine he

>preaches and the 'health' goals he seeks are also excessive.



Since you ain't a healer, I don't expect you to grasp the scope of my

'goals' for my clients' health. What I do know is that my clients

experience great relief, often from lifelong suffering. That's all that

counts.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 01:42:19 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Just out of curiosity...

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.92.960920234936.28063A-100000@nunic.nu.edu>



>What am I missing here?  I'd have expected the chinese life expectancy to

>have beeen equal to ours or to exceed it given all the glowing lip service

>Chinese medicine is paid on this list.  I know statistics can be

>deceptive, but this seems pretty straightforward.  Any comments?



Gad, this is the classic canard. "If yoga was so good for you, why are the

people in India starving?"



When you learn to take a look at history, you will understand that the

Chinese have suffered the Japanese invasion, a revolution with millions of

deaths, a prolongued civil war-like reign of terror within the last thirty

years, as well as some of the worst pollution on this planet (and it is

going to get way worse).



So your little test is pathetic.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 05:06:23 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Della Noche <dnoche@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      How do you know if you're doing something wrong when you feel

              great?



I can see my younger self in some of this discussion - I felt and looked

great while relying heavily on adrenaline to "charge" myself through my

20's and 30's.   My exhausted adrenals are now a source of meno and other

problems.



If someone had told me that I was going to need these little guys for

future hormones from 40 on, I would have paid some attention.   Maybe not

a lot, but enough perhaps to have made some difference.



Incidently - I've found that a mixture recommended by a local MD now

working with herbs is a superior substitute for Premarin in high enough

amounts - we're still working on it, but it's an improvement for sure.

She did tailor this to my descriptions of how I was feeling but it seems

as though it would be good generally for meno.



This is:

2 parts each dong quai, vitex, black cohosh

1 part each sage, skullcap, licorice, kava

1/10 part Siberian ginseng



Does anyone have any comments or suggestions re this formula or

strengthening my adrenals or other estrogen, progesterone, testosterone

aiding herbs?



Thanks,



dn



Someone wrote the following - sorry about not saving your name!

------------------------------------quote---------------

  If someone is 'well' ie they feel great, look great, etc.

then what is the POINT of finding out what they MAY have lost and how

they

could have felt even better.  If you told any of these people how they

could feel super mega-'well' by just making a few changes, I'm sure most

would just tell you to get lost.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 09:56:48 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         bill jackson <jackson@NR.INFI.NET>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection



Kathy,

Thank you for the suggestions. That was just the info I was looking for. :)

Gerri



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 09:59:37 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         bill jackson <jackson@NR.INFI.NET>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection



Richard,

I am pretty sure it's not a bladder infection, no painful urination, etc.

The only other concern I have is that I am nursing my little son and I don't

want anything that would affect my milk supply. I have read that some herbs

can slow milk supply.

Gerri



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 07:11:09 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960921135937.0067d3c0@nr.infi.net>



>Richard,

>I am pretty sure it's not a bladder infection, no painful urination, etc.

>The only other concern I have is that I am nursing my little son and I don't

>want anything that would affect my milk supply. I have read that some herbs

>can slow milk supply.

>Gerri



Well, on that count, you should probably note that MOST 'antibiotic' herbs

will taint breast milk, as far as I know.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 10:09:15 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         bill jackson <jackson@NR.INFI.NET>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection



>Cornsilk, yes. What is your usual sense of body temperature?

normal



 Does your skin

>seem dry to you?

not anymore than usual.



 Do you get stomach pains?

a little nausea



Do you feel excessively tired at

>times?

yes, as a matter of fact, I slept very heavily last night



Consume large quantities of water, and avoid any sort of hot

>application (like hot showers).

>

>I would tend to recommend AGAINST cranberry juice for a chronic kidney

>infection.

could you tell me why? My whole life I have been told cranberry is great for

flushing my system, just recently my midwife told me to drink black cherry too.



Thank you for your help.

Gerri



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 07:42:41 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960921140915.00684608@nr.infi.net>



>>Cornsilk, yes. What is your usual sense of body temperature?

>normal



You mean that you don't feel stuffy easily, hate hot weather, feel

especially cold in winter, want to put on or take off clothes before others

do? That dreaded 'normal,' once again.



> Does your skin

>>seem dry to you?

>not anymore than usual.



Do you mean not any more than anyone else? Is it usually dry? Is your

complexion dark? Do you notice spider veins or easy bruising?



> Do you get stomach pains?

>a little nausea



How often?



>Do you feel excessively tired at

>>times?

>yes, as a matter of fact, I slept very heavily last night



Well, yeah, you have an infection! The point isn't your current state...I'm

trying to help you diagnose WHY you get chronic kidney infections (and you

aren't being particularly helpful <g>).



>Consume large quantities of water, and avoid any sort of hot

>>application (like hot showers).

>>

>>I would tend to recommend AGAINST cranberry juice for a chronic kidney

>>infection.

>could you tell me why? My whole life I have been told cranberry is great for

>flushing my system, just recently my midwife told me to drink black cherry

>too.



Because sour herbs astringe, and it is improper to astringe Heat. An

argument can be made for astringing a bladder infection, though, since it

is an organ that naturally changes size.



>Thank you for your help.

>Gerri



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 07:55:01 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Dancing beans?

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960910202042.00abfe58@mail.halcyon.com>



On a lighter note, did any of you know that there are genera called

'Machaerina' and 'Macaranga'?



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 08:07:29 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Baptisia ( False Indigo)

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960910202042.00abfe58@mail.halcyon.com>



>I've recently added B. tinctoria (also known as wild indigo, indigoweed and

>rattleweed) to my garden.  My research thus far shows that the root is the

>part used and it is an acrid, bitter antiseptic herb that stimulates the

>immune system and is particularly effective against bacterial infections.

>Also lowers fever and has laxative and emetic effects.  Internally good for

>tonsillitis and upper respiratory tract infections, but excess use causes

>nausea and vomiting.  Externally used for boils, ulcers, gum disease, sore

>nipples and vaginitis.  Does anyone have experience using this herb and are

>there other herbs it combines well with?  I don't find strong cautions or

>contraindications.  Anyone know of any?  Thanks.

>

>Marcia Elston



Grieve, vol. 2, pg. 432 lists this plant as being, I guess, confusable with

Sophora tinctoria (she lists it as an alternative name). Both genera are

similar, so I think this is a splitters/lumpers debate among botanists.

Several species of Sophora are in use in Chinese herbalism.



In any case, these Cold antibiotic herbs (like true indigo) have the shared

characteristic of being quite hard on the Digestion, and are therefore

contraindicated in people with weak Digestion.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:06:47 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Henry & Dawn Krans <hdkrans@NETOPIA.ON.CA>

Subject:      Re: Dancing beans?



Macarena!



Dancing the Macarena is easy, fun and only as slinky as the

dancer desires.



The steps



1. Right hand out, palm down. Left hand out, palm down.

2. Right hand out, palm up. Left hand out, palm up.

3. Right hand on left arm. Left hand n right arm.

4. Right hand on head. Left hand on head.

5. Right hand on left hip. Left hand on right hip.

6. Right hand on backside. Left hand on back side.

7. Sway back and forth three times, then turn 90 degrees to the right

8. Repeat.











At 07:55 AM 21/09/96 -0700, you wrote:

>On a lighter note, did any of you know that there are genera called

>'Machaerina' and 'Macaranga'?

>

>Paul

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:16:30 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Kathy Lingo <Lingo4@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Fwd: kidney infection



---------------------

Forwarded message:

Subj:    Re: kidney infection

Date:    96-09-20 23:42:29 EDT

From:    Lingo 4

To:      HERB@trearnpc.ege.edu.tr



Gerri,



Yes, you definitely should see a doctor for diagnosis as soon as

possible--there are several different kinds of kidney/bladder

infections/problems. And you need to know which it is before you can decide

on a course of treatment.



Temporary measures: A homeopathic called Cantharis will give some immediate

help if there is burning during urination. Also an herb extract called

pipsissewa will help keep things flushed out.



The Prescriptions for Nutritional Healing by Dr. Balch suggests the

following:

*8oz. glass of distilled water ever hour you are awake,

acidophilus 3 X daily,

*Vit. B6, 50 mg. 3 X daily (plus Inositol & Choline, to reduce fluid

retention (also Natures Way has a KB combination that is a good herbal

diuretic),

*Vit. C w/Bioflavenoids, 2000 to 4000 mg. per day to acidify the urine,

*Dandelion Root & Pumpkin Ext. to aid in excretion of kidney waste products.



It goes on and on, but the above are in the "essential, very important &

important" categories.



Additional notes:

Drink one quart of marshmallow tea daily to strengthen bladder, cleanse

bladder & kidneys, & expel kidney stones.

Women who suffer from recurrent bladder infections should not use tampons &

should always wear cotton underwear--never nylon.



Also, I don't know how the experts hereon feel about it, but if I thought I

needed an antibiotic and was unable to access my doctor, I would utilize

Colloidal Silver (health food store)--expensive, but seems to have all the

benefits of antibiotics w/o the usual side effects.



Please do check it out with your doctor. My neice had recurrent bladder and

eventually kidney infections and found out she had kidney stones.



Wishing you wellness,



Kathy



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:17:18 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Kathy Lingo <Lingo4@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Fwd: Anything for a cough????



---------------------

Forwarded message:

Subj:    Re: Anything for a cough????

Date:    96-09-20 23:10:51 EDT

From:    Lingo 4

To:      HERB@trearnpc.ege.edu.tr



There is a homeopathic cough formula called Similisan Cough I, II, III that

address different types of coughs. They can be found in most good health food

stores and I have never seen them fail to work for my customers or me. It is

liquid that you sprinkle down your throat, tastes terrible, but you do stop

coughing. One bad flu epidemic year, it was the only thing that allowed me to

sleep.



Wishing you wellness,



Kathy



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 08:28:11 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection



Remember that you must seek knowledge on all things that concern your

health.  I am looking up the cranberry material.  If you want to see what I

am looking at you might try the following with your net browser:



http://www.bastyr.edu

        -->library

                 -->On-line resource bibliography

                 -->Herbs(Culinary and Medical Links) (Algy's Herb Page)

                        (watch out! This page is long and broke into sections.)

                        -->Medicine

                                -->Herbal.index

                                        -->H-P

                                                -->Kidney/Blatter:

Couchgrass, Meadowsweet, Uva Ursi<-- Look here.  This is interesting on

Kidney herbs.

                                                (Back page to)

                        -->Medicine (On Algy's Home Page)

As I'm going along I see something that might interest women, maybe ones who

are considering child birth

                                --> Herbs and Essential Oils to use and

those to avoid

during pregnancy

But im not going to stop there. Hmmmmm? Cranberrys??? Ron looks onward.

Wow look down towards the bottom of the page is a neat article on using

herbs and diferent food dishes to use a few herbs with.  This might be

interesting.

                                -->Using Herbs

                                                  (Back page to)

                        -->Medicine (On Algy's Home Page)

I wanted to look a--> The Natural Remedy Glossary but it seems Out of Order.

ANyone else get there? (If you are trying this too)



Hey, I want people to join me in the internet search of information. I know

some of you are new to computers and herbs.  I am too.  I want to see the

many points of view out there about some of the links available.



Anyone care to join?



Ron







At 07:42 AM 9/21/96 -0700, you wrote:

>>>Cornsilk, yes. What is your usual sense of body temperature?

>>normal

>

>You mean that you don't feel stuffy easily, hate hot weather, feel

>especially cold in winter, want to put on or take off clothes before others

>do? That dreaded 'normal,' once again.

>

>> Does your skin

>>>seem dry to you?

>>not anymore than usual.

>

>Do you mean not any more than anyone else? Is it usually dry? Is your

>complexion dark? Do you notice spider veins or easy bruising?

>

>> Do you get stomach pains?

>>a little nausea

>

>How often?

>

>>Do you feel excessively tired at

>>>times?

>>yes, as a matter of fact, I slept very heavily last night

>

>Well, yeah, you have an infection! The point isn't your current state...I'm

>trying to help you diagnose WHY you get chronic kidney infections (and you

>aren't being particularly helpful <g>).

>

>>Consume large quantities of water, and avoid any sort of hot

>>>application (like hot showers).

>>>

>>>I would tend to recommend AGAINST cranberry juice for a chronic kidney

>>>infection.

>>could you tell me why? My whole life I have been told cranberry is great for

>>flushing my system, just recently my midwife told me to drink black cherry

>>too.

>

>Because sour herbs astringe, and it is improper to astringe Heat. An

>argument can be made for astringing a bladder infection, though, since it

>is an organ that naturally changes size.

>

>>Thank you for your help.

>>Gerri

>

>Paul

>

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 08:35:17 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: Cranberry



Here is one more for cranberry



        http://www.scs.carleton.ca/~palepu/cranberry.html



Someone here must really liike cranberries.



Ron



Abc@televar.com



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:42:46 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         bill jackson <jackson@NR.INFI.NET>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection



At 07:42 AM 9/21/96 -0700, you wrote:

>>>Cornsilk, yes. What is your usual sense of body temperature?

>>normal

>

>You mean that you don't feel stuffy easily, hate hot weather, feel

>especially cold in winter, want to put on or take off clothes before others

>do? That dreaded 'normal,' once again.

>

ok, sorry for the 'normal' stuff, I didn't understand what you were trying

to get from me <BG>  yes, I can't stand hot humid weather, I have been

pretty cold lately due to lower temps in North Carolina. They are lower than

usual for this time of year. I have been having more of a problem with the

cold as compared with the rest of my family. Is that a little more helpful?





>> Does your skin

>>>seem dry to you?

>>not anymore than usual.

>My facial skin is always oily, my arms and upper legs are dry. I was given

a script for a lotion last year from the dermatologist. He said to wash the

dry area (has bumps that are very small and dry up, not acne though) with

salicylic acid (sp?) soap, then use Lac-Hydrin (I think that's the name) It

stings when I used it. He said if that didn't help use a moisturizing bar.

It didn't work so I began making my own soap with oatmeal. Still dry,

probably always will be. I have had these dry bumps since I was a kid.





>Do you mean not any more than anyone else? Is it usually dry? Is your

>complexion dark? Do you notice spider veins or easy bruising?

I have a light complexion. I do have ALOT of vericose veins and I definately

bruise easily. My husband says all you have to do is blow on me and I bruise.





>> Do you get stomach pains?

>>a little nausea

>

>How often?

I felt slightly nauseous last night, early thru late evening, I feel ok so

far today. I don't feel it all the time.





>>Do you feel excessively tired at

>>>times?

>>yes, as a matter of fact, I slept very heavily last night

>

>Well, yeah, you have an infection! The point isn't your current state...I'm

>trying to help you diagnose WHY you get chronic kidney infections (and you

>aren't being particularly helpful <g>).

>



Is this better? I have been under a tremendous amount of pressure lately. I

am starting to build up my soap business and I have so many people calling,

orders to place, etc. I am constantly worried about personal problems, too.

I have 3 kids I run after all day.



Gerri



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 08:47:20 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: Corn Silk



=20



Corn Silk



Botanical: Zea Mays (LINN.)=20

Family: N.O. Graminaceae



     Description=20

     Constituents=20

     Medicinal Action and Uses=20

     Preparations and Dosages=20



---Part Used---Flower pistils.=20

---Habitat---Sub-tropical countries of the world. and

cultivated in warm climates.=20





---Description---The stigmas (fine soft, yellowish

threads) from the female flowers of maize from 4 to 8

inches long and of a light green, purplish red, yellow or

light brown colour, stigmas bifid; the segments very

slender, frequently unequal, nearly odourless, faintly

sweetish taste.=20



---Constituents---Maizenic acid is present in the dried

corn silk; also fixed oil, resin, chlorophyl, sugar-gum

extractive albuminoids phlobaphine salt, cellulose and

water.=20



---Medicinal Action and Uses---A mild stimulant,

diuretic and demulcent, useful in acute and chronic

cystitis and in the bladder irritation of uric acid and

phosphatic gravel; has also been employed in gonorrhoea.

In action like Holy Thistle.=20



---Preparations and Dosages---Infusion 1 in 10), 2 fluid

ounces. Fluid extract of maize stigmas, B.P.C., 1 to 2 fluid

drachms. Syrup of maize stigmas, B.P.C., 2 to 4 fluid

drachms. Mazenic is given in doses of 1/8 grain.=20



See CORN (INDIAN).=20



                     Common Name Index=20

            A MODERN HERBAL Home Page=20



                       Copyright 1995 =A9 Electric Newt



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 10:06:17 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection



>Is this better? I have been under a tremendous amount of pressure lately. I

>am starting to build up my soap business and I have so many people calling,

>orders to place, etc. I am constantly worried about personal problems, too.

>I have 3 kids I run after all day.

>Gerri



Gerri-



Just as a comment from a non professional such as many here.



I know the feeling.



How vigorous are you about feeding your children well balanced meals with

strict policy on sweets and pops?



It seems that many parents suffer from a variaty of children problems (Not

all, i know what kids are like and food doesnt solve it all) But i have read

in various articles that the nutrition of children oftens influences the

childs activity level and mental stability.



I am just wondering if children might not be easier to raise if they are

getting a healthy exposure to raw vegetables, less cooked meats, juices,

fruits and excersize?  I imagine Paul could tell you more about herbs that

could be supplemented to their diets that might make hormonal changes easier

for those kids that are growing faster than they know what to do with.



Your stress is yours to make and break.  Remember that you can control the

way you react to stress and that dealing with stress in a healthy way, such

as you seem to be working at is going to help you.



Do you make herbal soaps?



What about Kava Kava?  Would that be good for dealing with stress?  (I ask

for myself)



I am intrigued by its mellowing ability.  Can I grow that in a planter?  Or

in a green house?



Ron



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 10:16:42 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ed Kochanowski <egk@EGK.COM>

Subject:      Re: Dancing beans?

In-Reply-To:  <v0300780cae69b1d110e6@[206.138.118.104]>



I've never seen beans dance, but I wouldn't be surprised, they are the

"musical fruit" after all!  :)

--Ed



On Sat, 21 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:



> On a lighter note, did any of you know that there are genera called

> 'Machaerina' and 'Macaranga'?

>

> Paul

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 10:39:29 +0200

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Daniel Wong <Daniel.Wong@PING.BE>

Subject:      M.alba question



Hi y'all: Anybody know what part of the M. alba is used as a cold herb?

Bonnie



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 10:27:25 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Just out of curiosity...

In-Reply-To:  <v03007807ae6959fb0037@[204.179.169.99]>



On Sat, 21 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:



> >What am I missing here?  I'd have expected the chinese life expectancy to

> >have beeen equal to ours or to exceed it given all the glowing lip service

> >Chinese medicine is paid on this list.  I know statistics can be

> >deceptive, but this seems pretty straightforward.  Any comments?

>

> Gad, this is the classic canard. "If yoga was so good for you, why are the

> people in India starving?"

>



I don't see a connection between starvation and yoga.  I do see a

connection between medicine and living.



> When you learn to take a look at history, you will understand that the

> Chinese have suffered the Japanese invasion, a revolution with millions of

> deaths, a prolongued civil war-like reign of terror within the last thirty

> years, as well as some of the worst pollution on this planet (and it is

> going to get way worse).

>

> So your little test is pathetic.



What test?  I was simply trying to infuse a bit of fact into the

discussion.  I do believe I asked for someone to fill in the blanks.

When YOU learn to stop attempting to second-guess the REASONS people are

asking things you will understand that the time you spend typing in catty

responses will have been wasted.



>

> Paul

>







-C



ps.  there is no further need for anybody to flame me in email either.

What is wrong with you people? sheesh.   A discussion list that actively

DISCOURAGES opposing viewpoints and discussion itself.  And trying to

elevate something to a more intellectual level?  forget about it.  Talk

about pathetic.  This'll be my last public posting.



pps.  to the poor person who is describing what sound like very serious

symptoms but can't get to her doctor until monday?  Two words:  Emergency

Room.

 ___

___ |_|___                              _______________|_|

|_||_|       The Elements           |_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_|______________________________|_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_|Ah, love. The walks over soft grass, the smiles |_|

|_|over candlelight, the arguments over just about |_|

|_|everything else.  |_||_||_| -Max Headroom |_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_|

      __________________________________________

      |_|cbendix@nunic.nu.edu |_||_||_||_||_||_|

      |_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:10:12 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Joan <alan_grout@SUNSHINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Energy herbs-ginseng, gingko, etc



At 02:05 PM 9/20/96 -0700, you wrote:



>i'm sorry to hear about all the problems your father has had.  I think,

>however, that the underlying problem here is that he is old.  He lived for

>seventy five years 'symptom-free' (and I assume happy during those years).

>Had he lived his life differently, as far as diet, chances are he would

>still be approaching death.  Maybe he would have lived longer and maybe he

>wouldn't have.  If I were in your position, I would be asking myself

>whether or not he led a good life and be celebrating that, rather than

>merely grasping at straws to keep him living a little bit longer.



Just for the record, I was not looking for sympathy for my father. I was

using him as an example of how unawareness does not necessarily equate with

good health.

He is just fine, thank-you very much, thanks to the herbs that he takes to

humor me, thanks to Paul's advice.

---In my position--- I was asking myself, what is missing and how is it

possible to intervene to actually change the path he was on  so as to

enhance the remainder of his life and to allow him to make full use of the

energy he has. ...I don't use straws.



Joan



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 12:59:09 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: M.alba question

In-Reply-To:  <199609211721.TAA23081@ping1.ping.be>



>Hi y'all: Anybody know what part of the M. alba is used as a cold herb?

>Bonnie



All parts of the mulberry are Cool (Cooling), but the root is Cold (Colding).



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 13:06:42 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Just out of curiosity...

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.92.960921094731.3011A-100000@nunic.nu.edu>



>> When you learn to take a look at history, you will understand that the

>> Chinese have suffered the Japanese invasion, a revolution with millions of

>> deaths, a prolongued civil war-like reign of terror within the last thirty

>> years, as well as some of the worst pollution on this planet (and it is

>> going to get way worse).

>>

>> So your little test is pathetic.

>

>What test?  I was simply trying to infuse a bit of fact into the

>discussion.  I do believe I asked for someone to fill in the blanks.

>When YOU learn to stop attempting to second-guess the REASONS people are

>asking things you will understand that the time you spend typing in catty

>responses will have been wasted.



Don't be dense. To suggest that you can test the validity of Chinese

healing by looking at contemporary stats, in any case, and without any

historical reference in particular, is absurd. I have given you plenty of

historical reason for why the Chinese life expectancy should be thirty, not

70.



>This'll be my last public posting.



Can't say I'm particularly sorry. You've put yourself in a fairly

anti-herbal healing position.



>pps.  to the poor person who is describing what sound like very serious

>symptoms but can't get to her doctor until monday?  Two words:  Emergency

>Room.



With **chronic** kidney infections, rushing off to an ER is not

particularly valid or useful. All of the major antibiotics have already

been taken, repeatedly, and the key thing to do is not take more, but to

monitor your temperature closely (hourly at least if you are running a

fever, and have someone check on you periodically while you sleep---if it

goes above say 101 F, then it is time to head for the ER), and take

appropriate HOLISTIC healing measures, such as drinking plenty of fluids,

resting, eating nourishing food high in protein (feed a fever), and taking

Cooling herbs appropriate to the complaint (NOT uva ursi!).



Paul



Since this is an acute illness in its incidence, at least, let me disclaim

the above as NOT being medical advice, but merely the ramblings of a

mentally-deranged net junkie with too much time on his hands.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 13:27:10 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Anita Hales <hales1@KTN.NET>

Subject:      Tired after lunch



A while back Paul disagreed with me about feeling tired after lunch.  I

still maintain that it is natural to want to rest after eating.  The more

you eat the more you will want to rest.  Many of your system's energies are

diverted to the digestive process after eating.  Did you ever watch a cat

nap after eating?  However, it should not put you under the table.  A person

should not feel "disabled" after eating.  You should not feel like you can't

stay awake at all.  If so, you have a problem.  You either are eating too

much, the wrong things, or you have other health problems that consume your

energy and are noticed more when energy is diverted to digestion.  Any text

on physiology will tell you this.

***********************************************************

* Wild Strawberries:  "...water distilled from the        *

* berries is good for the passions of the heart caused by *

* perterbation of the spirit."                            *



*    John Parkinson, 1640                                 *

*_________________________________________________________*

*Anita Hales, hales1@alaska.ktn.net                       *

***********************************************************



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 14:30:12 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Anita Hales <hales1@KTN.NET>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection



At 09:21 PM 9/20/96 -0400, bill jackson wrote:

>Hi all,

>I hope someone will be able to help me. I had had kidney problems in the

>past and I feel another bout is coming on. My symtons are pain in my left

>side, just above the hip bone, but towards my back. (it is increasing in

>intensity) Also, feeling of fatigue and slight fever. I have begun drinking

>craberry juice and I will get some black cherry juice tomorrw. I also will

>get some cranberry tablets. Other than that I am not quite sure what to do.

>I now am the proud owner of 3 herbal books, but I cannot get a clear

>understanding of how to treat myself. Any info would be appreciated, as I am

>getting more and more uncomfortable.

>Thank ou,

>Gerri

>

>

Are you sure it is kidney and not some urinary tract or bladder infection?

the treatments are not the same.  Plain old black tea can be helpful in

preventing and helping kidney problems.  It is an old remedy.  Just drink

lots of it. My mother who had chronic kidney problems avoided

hospitalization simply by drinking tea daily.  Ordinarily I would not

recommend anyone drink tea every day.  In this case, I would.  Avoid eating

sugar of any kind.  Cranberry is usually for bladder infections. Make sure

your cranberry juice is NOT sweetened or it won't help.  Recurrent kidney

problems are frequently from allergies.  Cut out common allergens from your

diet immediately and see if it can help.  I heard on Paul Harvey on the

radio the other day about a child whose mother helped him avoid dialysis by

eliminating all food additives and prepared foods.  She canned all the food

fresh and fed him only things she prepared herself.  This eliminated all

food additives and he got better, not needing the dialysis.

***********************************************************

* Wild Strawberries:  "...water distilled from the        *

* berries is good for the passions of the heart caused by *

* perterbation of the spirit."                            *



*    John Parkinson, 1640                                 *

*_________________________________________________________*

*Anita Hales, hales1@alaska.ktn.net                       *

***********************************************************



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 14:30:09 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Anita Hales <hales1@KTN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Anything for a cough????



At 03:26 PM 9/20/96 -0400, Sherm wrote:

>hello,

>

>I would like to know if there is anything i could use to stifle a cough.

>I am a college student and several of my friends have this cough as well

>as i.

>thank you for any help.

>sincerely,

>

If this is the same "cough" that's going around here, I would suggest

frequent hot cups of Boneset tea (Eupatorium perf.).  Boneset is bitter and

can be offset with a little liquorice root (which will also help the cough).

Boneset is a sudorific and should be used hot.  It works best if you can

take a hot bath, drink your infusion and wrap up in blankets and sleep.  You

should sweat real good and get rid of almost any cold or flu symptoms

quickly.  The cough is not the culprit. It is only an outward symptom of

something else wrong.  Supressing the cough will not make you better.  It

can prolong your illness.  By the way, tell your friends to stay home when

they are sick so others don't suffer.  Our society is terrible about

illnesses.  It is considered "loss of productivity".  I am against making

people go to work or to school when they are sick just to meet some kind of

unrealistic quota.  If you can't miss school, have a friend tape the session

for you and stay home.

***********************************************************

* Wild Strawberries:  "...water distilled from the        *

* berries is good for the passions of the heart caused by *

* perterbation of the spirit."                            *



*    John Parkinson, 1640                                 *

*_________________________________________________________*

*Anita Hales, hales1@alaska.ktn.net                       *

***********************************************************



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 17:42:27 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Lisa B. Callihan" <cupojoe@INTERNETPRO.NET>

Subject:      Re: I'm gone as well!



Joco Cardoso wrote:

>

> Sure but, the list should be renamed "Paul's Flames"

>

> @@@@@@@@@@@@                    Adeus!                       @@@@@@@@@@@@

>

> On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:28:41 -0400 "John L. Rouse" <jrouse@CAPACCESS.ORG>

> writes:

> > Good grief, I'm away from the list for a short while and I return to

> >hundreds of useless messages from boring people bemoaning Paul and

> >what

> >they perceive to be boorish behavior. Bull. I, for one, am sick to the

> >teeth of all these know-nothings ranting and raving. Whatever Paul's

> >personality quirks may be, he contributes to the list and provides

> >useful information, which is something these tedious moaners have

> >never

> >done. As Ed pointed out in an earlier post, if you don't like it, sign

> >off. There's no need for you to post your sophomoric rants to  the

> >list,

> >wasting the time of those of us who don't go bananas every time Paul

> >lets loose in a reply to a dolt, which is usually the case.

> >If you don't like the list, don't read it! Go knit a rug, or

> >something...

> >

> >John Rouse

> >====

> >John L. Rouse                  FAX: (301) 464-7027

> >Capital-Gazette Communications VOICE MAIL: (301) 262-3700

> >jrouse@dc.infi.net                         EXT. 200

> >jrouse@reporters.net           PACKET: ka3dbn@ka3rfe.md.usa

> >Whatever you guys.  Please unsubscribe me as well.  Peace,

                                                      Lisa Callihan



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 18:03:43 +0000

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Neil Mickelson <happykamper@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      A Little Help



Hi everybody

I would love to have any of your input or opinions and this is why I=20

am writing to all. If long letters aren=B9t your bag then there is no=20

need for you to continue but I hope I have peaked your curiosity=20

enouigh to attempt to help a friend in need.=20

My Name is Neil Mickelson and I live in Lakewood, Calif. about 25

miles south of Los Angeles. I need some feedback if you can spare the=20

time. I have

had Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and been on disability for over 10 years.=20

For years I have had a slow system and incessant problems

with an irregular bowel movement. When I achieve what I would consider=20

a normal bowel movement I have felt almost normal that is, much more

energy etc. I have found certain herbs that work and have learned a=20

lot

out of necessity-the mother of invention. A number of years ago I

visited a doctor who gave me a funny looking bottle of herbs. The

label was hand written and unprofessional looking but it really

worked! The herbs contained in it were not listed and I have no

recolleciton of the content. All I know is that it worked. I have a

great desire to continue to improve my health and an equal desire to

help others. I get so exuberant about it sometimes. I feel a similar

excitement about spiritual things too being a Chrsitian.=20

=20

Anyways I have been going to  Clayton School of natural healing  for

about a year now and have studied herbology and have learned a little.=20

Because

of my own need and the great need I see in our society for bowel=20

regularity and rejuvenation I have embarked on a journey to formulate=20

my own  product (I know the answer for most is a diet change but=20

people are generally not gonna do it). It makes me laugh to think that=20

Preparation H is the most thieved product in the naton. I mean peole=20

steal it more than any other store item. That tells me that people are=20

embarrassed and that there is a vast need.



I recently had the idea of formulating my own product. I am not=20

satisfied with most of the stuff out there. My goal is to produce=20

something unique (relatively speaking) and consistently effective. I=20

want people to "really" find relief while regenerating

the liver and organs and restoring peristaltic action. I know that=20

cascara, senna, aloe vera leaf etc. do that while milk thistle, oregon=20

grape, barberry etc. help regenerate the liver.I want to stand out=20

among the rest. Not simply by hype in advertising or great marketing=20

but with something unusual. A one of a kind formula. One that truly=20

works and gives people their monies worth everytime.  I want to be=20

different from the rest although I know nothing is really original but=20

I'd like to get as close as possible. I have a friend from church=20

named Bob Stanefield. You may have used a product he formulated called=20

Perfect 7. It's amost in every health food store in the nation. He has=20

sold this one product for 20 years and hasn't really expanded his own=20

line except for capsules etc. I love it becuse his container is=20

nothing fancy and he hasn't really changed it much in 20 years.The=20

label is printed in black and white but the product speaks for=20

itself.He now has his own catalog where he features other products he=20

likes. I told him about my Chronic fatigue and my long term disability=20

and my idea and he told me to test the herbs on myself and others and=20

if I could come up with something that really worked he would help me=20

market it! WOW! Just to have his name, his reputation and backing=20

would be so great. He said we could either do it together under his=20

label or I could do it alone but he would still help. Shoot

I'm not greedy (not too anyways) so doing it under his label is fine

with me but I want to produce a product worthy of him. He is such neat

man I love him to death. Anyway there you have it. I need

just a little help from those more knowledgeable than me. Think

about it and see if you can come up with something unusual that will

really get the bowels moving! etc. while restoring the system. I=B9d=20

love you input Take care of yourself. Thanks for being available and=20

helping one in need.=20

A Friend...Neil Mickelson



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 18:19:01 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Tired after lunch

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960921212710.0067405c@alaska.ktn.net>



>A while back Paul disagreed with me about feeling tired after lunch.  I

>still maintain that it is natural to want to rest after eating.  The more

>you eat the more you will want to rest.  Many of your system's energies are

>diverted to the digestive process after eating.  Did you ever watch a cat

>nap after eating?  However, it should not put you under the table.  A person

>should not feel "disabled" after eating.  You should not feel like you can't

>stay awake at all.  If so, you have a problem.  You either are eating too

>much, the wrong things, or you have other health problems that consume your

>energy and are noticed more when energy is diverted to digestion.  Any text

>on physiology will tell you this.



While I agree that this is a more reasonable statement, I still disagree. I

used to feel tired after meals way back when. Now, I consider that a

side-effect of a sedentary life. Now that I sweat vigorously every day

(while not stressing my Kidneys overdoing it), I don't feel the slightest

tired or in need of rest after eating. I am ready, after maybe five or ten

minutes of table conversation, to go play baseball or whatever. It is for

this reason that I believe that it is not physiologically 'normal' to feel

tired after eating.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 19:01:52 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Shea <sheag@OZ.NET>

Subject:      Fw: Tired after lunch



Forgive me if this is a duplicate. The original appears to have bounced.





Paul wrote:



> > While I agree that this is a more reasonable statement, I still

disagree.

> I

> > used to feel tired after meals way back when. Now, I consider that a

> > side-effect of a sedentary life. Now that I sweat vigorously every day

> > (while not stressing my Kidneys overdoing it), I don't feel the

slightest

> > tired or in need of rest after eating. I am ready, after maybe five or

> ten

> > minutes of table conversation, to go play baseball or whatever. It is

for

> > this reason that I believe that it is not physiologically 'normal' to

> feel

> > tired after eating.

>

>

> This has been an interesting discussion. I have had a similar experience

to

> Paul's. I used to feel tired after eating as well. I tried to

> overcompensate by taking ginseng, ginkgo, chromium picolinate, and

> vitamins. II still felt tired after eating, and on top of it all had

> trouble sleeping at night because of a racing heart. I still take those

> herbs and supplements, but once I cut back my workload, started playing

> sports daily, exercising heavily daily,  changed my diet to be a better

> balance (heavier on carbs than protein),  and reduced my alcohol and

coffee

> intake, I now see my meals as just more fuel to keep me going. I now eat

> *prior* to hitting the gym or playing basketbal, and my workouts are

> longer, and more intense. Of course, I don't believe in eating large

meals.

> Several small meals a day seems to be much more sensible. I also seem to

> derive much more benfit from the ginseng and chromium, since I am not

> relying on them to substitute for a healty lifestyle, but to complement.

> So may people try to use stimulants and supplements to compensate for

their

> sedentary lifestyle. At any rate, I do not think it is normal (although

> perhaps it is 'the norm') at all to be tired or feel like you need to

> 'rest' after eating. If your body is so depleted that it must use all, or

> most of, its resources digesting food, there almost certainly is a larger

> problem that needs to be addressed.

>

> Shea

>

>

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 22:30:20 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Walter Semerenko <walter@ORLINTER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Dancing beans?



> I've never seen beans dance, but I wouldn't be surprised, they are the

> "musical fruit" after all!  :)

> --Ed



Well, when I see the republicans on tv dancing to the "Macarena".  It makes

me want to eat some black beans and produce a little "musical fruit."  ;)



> > On a lighter note, did any of you know that there are genera called

> > 'Machaerina' and 'Macaranga'?

> >

> > Paul



Walter.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 22:49:10 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Walter Semerenko <walter@ORLINTER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Tired after lunch



> While I agree that this is a more reasonable statement, I still disagree.

I

> used to feel tired after meals way back when. Now, I consider that a

> side-effect of a sedentary life. Now that I sweat vigorously every day

> (while not stressing my Kidneys overdoing it), I don't feel the slightest

> tired or in need of rest after eating. I am ready, after maybe five or

ten

> minutes of table conversation, to go play baseball or whatever.



OK, this makes more sense to me.



> It is for

> this reason that I believe that it is not physiologically 'normal' to

feel

> tired after eating.



If you did a statistical analysis of the American diet (tm), I believe that

a lot of people would fall under the norm.  That is why I disagree with you

statement above...though I believe people *should not* feel tired after

eating.



> Paul



Walter.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 21 Sep 1996 21:22:19 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Tired after lunch

In-Reply-To:  <20960922024654418.AAA197@prefferc>



>> It is for

>> this reason that I believe that it is not physiologically 'normal' to

>> feel tired after eating.

>

>If you did a statistical analysis of the American diet (tm), I believe that

>a lot of people would fall under the norm.  That is why I disagree with you

>statement above...though I believe people *should not* feel tired after

>eating.

>

>> Paul

>

>Walter.



Fair enough, but you are missing the point. The argument of what is

physiologically 'normal' is an issue that involves fundamental norms of the

human organism per se. Testing one population of humans DOES NOT reveal

those norms.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 22 Sep 1996 03:28:38 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Kathy Lingo <Lingo4@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: A Little Help



Neil,



It is my understanding that cascara sagrada is habit forming to the bowels

and should not be used on a daily basis. I am sure someone who knows a great

deal more than I will be able to comment on that further.



In my health food store, there is only one laxative type supplement that I

sell and feel good about people taking on a daily basis--and I have never

seen it fail to help people with chronic constipation problems. The product

is called Oxy-Cleanse, and put out by Matrix Health Products. It acts as a

colon cleanser, oxygenates the intestinal tract and colon and produces

regularity. It says on the label: Oxy Cleanse is a unique colon conditioner

that works without psyllium or herbs. Oxy-Cleanse is fast acting and is

scientifically designed to work gently, safely and effectively without bulky

fiber, chalky taste or harsh side effects. Oxy-Cleanse's unique oxygen based

formula breaks debris into very small pieces that can be easily and gently

eliminated. A clean colon can lead to more effective absorption of vital

minerals and nutrients allowing for more vibrant health--USE IT REGULARLY.

Ingredients are simply: Magnesium Peroxide, Vitamin C, Bioflavenoid Complex

blended and bonded in a special process.



And although adding additonal fiber in your diet or with psyllium is always a

good idea, Oxy-Cleanse will work quite well without it. I think that is what

the Fiber 7 product is (just a variety of fibers combined), isn't it?



Also many times regularity can be achieved by slowly adding more magnesium to

the diet until the needed dosage is achieved.



I am sorry to hear about your chronic fatigue. My husband has it, but not as

badly as yours. If I see him start to get irritable, and tired even after he

awakes, I put him on heavy immune system boosters and he usually can climb

out of the downward spiral. If we don't use the immune system supplements, he

can end up feeling down & out for weeks, even months.



Good Luck with your natural health studies,



Kathy



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 22 Sep 1996 09:29:23 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: A Little Help

In-Reply-To:  <960922032835_107725244@emout15.mail.aol.com>



>Oxy Cleanse is a unique colon conditioner (...)

>Magnesium Peroxide, Vitamin C, Bioflavenoid Complex

>blended and bonded in a special process.



Otherwise known as Magnesium dioxide, a famous antacid. Magnesium sulfate

is Epsom salts. Both are mechanical laxatives.



>I am sorry to hear about your chronic fatigue.



The last thing someone with true CFS needs is a laxative.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 20 Sep 1996 22:59:35 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Walter Semerenko <walter@ORLINTER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Just out of curiosity...



> ps.  there is no further need for anybody to flame me in email either.

> What is wrong with you people? sheesh.   A discussion list that actively

> DISCOURAGES opposing viewpoints and discussion itself.  And trying to

> elevate something to a more intellectual level?  forget about it.  Talk

> about pathetic.  This'll be my last public posting.



NOOOO...please don't leave.  We need someone to give healthy criticism over

the self-proclaimed healers and those who try to use their intelligencia to

belittle the ignorant (like me).



>       |_|cbendix@nunic.nu.edu



Walter.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 22 Sep 1996 22:27:23 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         linda/richard <kyote@WOLFENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection



A



>>> Does your skin

>>>>seem dry to you?

>>>not anymore than usual.

>>My facial skin is always oily, my arms and upper legs are dry. I was given

>a script for a lotion last year from the dermatologist. He said to wash the

>dry area (has bumps that are very small and dry up, not acne though) with

>salicylic acid (sp?) soap, then use Lac-Hydrin (I think that's the name) It

>stings when I used it. He said if that didn't help use a moisturizing bar.

>It didn't work so I began making my own soap with oatmeal. Still dry,

>probably always will be. I have had these dry bumps since I was a kid.

>

>

gerri;

these dry bumps may be a sign of essential fatty acid deficency.

what kind of oils/fats do you use in your diet?

richard

---------------------------------------------------

        LET YOUR LIFE BE YOUR MESSAGE



richard and linda       seattle wa.



                kyote@wolfenet.com



___________________________________________________



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 2 Jan 1970 15:59:50 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "A. Henriks" <autumnh@TRANSPORT.COM>

Subject:      Just the facts please



Hi All,



I am interested in the Herb



UNA DE GATO

Cats Claw

(Uncoria Tomentosa del Peru)



I have heard quite a few claims about it and would like to separate fact

from fiction.



Thanks,

Autumn



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:33:52 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Anita Hales <hales1@KTN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Tired after lunch



At 06:19 PM 9/21/96 -0700, Paul Iannone wrote:

>>A while back Paul disagreed with me about feeling tired after lunch.  I

>>still maintain that it is natural to want to rest after eating.  The more

>>you eat the more you will want to rest.  Many of your system's energies are

>>diverted to the digestive process after eating.  Did you ever watch a cat

>>nap after eating?  However, it should not put you under the table.  A person

>>should not feel "disabled" after eating.  You should not feel like you can't

>>stay awake at all.  If so, you have a problem.  You either are eating too

>>much, the wrong things, or you have other health problems that consume your

>>energy and are noticed more when energy is diverted to digestion.  Any text

>>on physiology will tell you this.

>

>While I agree that this is a more reasonable statement, I still disagree. I

>used to feel tired after meals way back when. Now, I consider that a

>side-effect of a sedentary life. Now that I sweat vigorously every day

>(while not stressing my Kidneys overdoing it), I don't feel the slightest

>tired or in need of rest after eating. I am ready, after maybe five or ten

>minutes of table conversation, to go play baseball or whatever. It is for

>this reason that I believe that it is not physiologically 'normal' to feel

>tired after eating.

>

>Paul

>

>

And yet, why not allow your body to properly digest after eating before

diverting energy elsewhere?  Even if you don't feel "tired", your body DOES

divert attention to digestion.  It seems to me that digestion would be

better if we allowed it to work before excessive energy output.

***********************************************************

* Wild Strawberries:  "...water distilled from the        *

* berries is good for the passions of the heart caused by *

* perterbation of the spirit."                            *



*    John Parkinson, 1640                                 *

*_________________________________________________________*

*Anita Hales, hales1@alaska.ktn.net                       *

***********************************************************



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 23 Sep 1996 14:58:36 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Tired after lunch

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960923193352.00677dfc@alaska.ktn.net>



>And yet, why not allow your body to properly digest after eating before

>diverting energy elsewhere?  Even if you don't feel "tired", your body DOES

>divert attention to digestion.  It seems to me that digestion would be

>better if we allowed it to work before excessive energy output.



Well, let's look at this from the standpoint of Chinese healing's physiology.



Tiredness after eating can have many causes, but the mechanism of the

effect is single: the Clear Yang Qi of the body is not rising to the

sensorium as it should. This could because it is blocked from doing so,

such as from overeating, or due to excess Damp accumulation (and this

includes food allergies), or it could be because it is insufficient to do

so, such as from depletion due to lack of rest, chronic use of stimulants,

excessive sex, or lack of exercise.



The 'Spleen' Qi, or Digestive Qi, is the primary locus of Clear Yang Qi in

the waking life, which it receives from the Kidney Yang stores. That

Digestive Qi has many functions in the body, and one of them is to supply

the sensorium so that consciousness is clear. The 'cloudy' feeling of being

tired after eating is well-glossed as being the failure to have enough

Clear Yang Qi, so the sensory organs become clouded with a heavy-feeling

Yin turbidity---just like a foggy, humid day obscures the sun. So

essentially, tiredness after eating is due to lack of Spleen Qi.



Now, it has been argued that feeling tired after meals is 'normal,' and

from a statistical sense that is no doubt true. Using the Chinese healing

frame, all this is, is the statement that Americans are chronically short

on Spleen Qi. IF you have sufficient stores of Spleen Qi, not only do you

not feel tired after eating, but you do not need to worry about continued

activity weakening your Digestive activities. This accords with my previous

statement that health could be defined as the state of not noticing the

body at all.



On a side note, this is in some ways what the recent poster was

arguing---that health should be freedom from discomforts and illness. The

argument there was with the definition of 'freedom,' and with the clarity

of observation of a lay person who has a strong bias towards their habits,

choices, and reductive world view.



So attending to your Digestion in this way is a kind of adaptation to weak

Spleen Qi, NOT a physiological necessity in and of itself. We CAN eat and

run, if we are very healthy. For many people, however, the fact is that

they SHOULD rest after meals, because they are short on Spleen Qi, and also

because they need the rest in any case.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:17:29 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Patricia C. McMullen" <Redgato@AOL.COM>

Subject:      cat's claw



I accidently deleted the message concerning an interest in Una da Gato (cat's

claw).  I have quite a bit of information about it and I take it regularly.

 It really is an amazing plant.  I used it directly (mixed in an ointment) on

a surgical wound that wouldn't heal on one of my cats and the results were

astounding.  The wound closed literally overnight- I couldn't believe it.  My

vet still doesn't understand what happened!



If the person who was interested in the cat's claw will respond to me

directly, I will give him my information.



Pat (Redgato @aol.com



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:56:11 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: Tired after lunch



I "like" when Paul talks like that.  It is refreshing.



Ron



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 23 Sep 1996 21:00:21 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: Just the facts please



>UNA DE GATO

>Cats Claw

>(Uncoria Tomentosa del Peru)



I know this much....



The root can be used...

the leaves and stalk can be used....

The flowers can be used....

It is imported from southern american rain forests...

It is grown in california...

You are best to get a mixture of flower and root....

Powder form in gel caps is best for absorption... (Excluding fresh form of

course)

It reduces intestinal parasites...

It does stimulate the immune response...

If it's 19.95 a bottle and the primo stuff you cant get anywhere else you

should keep looking...



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:53:26 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: Tired after eating



Aren't we supposed to get tired after eating?



The grandfather asks after turkey dinner as he sits down to fall asleep in

front of the football game on TV.



The idea of rest after food is propagated by our society?

Eating chicken or turkey in large quantities stimulates chemical reactions

that induce a state of lethargy.

Depending on the size of the meal, the time of day, the food,  how it was

chewed, the state of your innards, the full rising moon hovering over the

midnight sky......

Co Factors influence how our bodies work.



And each one of is exposed to a myriad of co factors.  If you have a problem

with an organ, begin to eleminate the co factors that "could" be influencing

the state. For example:  suffer from a sensitive stomach?  How about cutting

all caffeine and sugar for two weeks.  If its still upset after two weeks

you can say...."Well it wasnt that!"  And you have lost nothing.



Don't go in the water until you have rested for a half hour!   Grandma yells

to the kids running toward the lake.



Behaviors are learned, so are expectations.

Though my expectations clash with yours I am still right for me!



Ron

abc@televar.com



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:37:48 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection



Cold Pressed cold processed olive oil



two teaspoon a day might help keep the bumpys away



(Contains genorous amount of efas



Ron



abc@televar.com



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 26 Sep 1996 10:58:02 +0100

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Radek K. Novotny" <novotny@DALE.UEK.CAS.CZ>

Subject:      AIDS and Phytomedicines



Hello netters,



        From John Wilkinson moderator of Phytophaarmacognosy Discussion

group I have got this message.

        Could someone please send me info about that?



From: "John Wilkinson" <JOHN11@mdx.ac.uk>

Date:          Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:11:49 GMT

Subject:       Re: AIDS and Phytomedicines



> >

> > Does anyone have e mail addresses of researchers specialising in

> > AIDS and its treatment with phytochemicals (either as potential drug

> > leads or using the whole extract). PLease e mail me direct.

> >

> > Would some one be able to help trawl the net to get a list of

> > possible candidates?

> >

> > many thanks in advance

> >

> >

> > *************************************************************

> > Dr John A. Wilkinson BSc PhD DIC MRSC C CHEM

> > Senior Lecturer in Pharmacognosy, Phytochemistry

> > on the BSC degree in Herbal Medicine Programme,

> > Middlesex University, Enfield, Middlesex EN3 4SF United Kingdom

> > E mail: JOHN11@MDX.AC.UK Tel:0181 362 6425 Fax:0181 805 0702

> > International: 44 181 362 6425; Fax:44 181 805 0702

> > http://www.mdx.ac.uk/www/pharm/

> > **************************************************************







                                        Thanks Radek



###############################################################################

#                                                                             #

#                                                                             #

#               Radek Novotny                                                 #

#               Institute of Landscape Ecology                                #

#               Na Sadkach 7                                                  #

#               370 05 Ceske Budejovice                                       #

#               Czech Republic                                                #

#               tel: ++42-038-40586                                           #

#               FAX: ++42-038-45719                                           #

#               e-mail novotny@dale.uek.cas.cz                                #

#                                                                             #

###############################################################################



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 25 Sep 1996 00:08:29 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection



At 09:21 PM 9/20/96 -0400, <jackson@NR.INFI.NET> wrote:

>Hi all,

>I hope someone will be able to help me. I had had kidney problems in the

>past and I feel another bout is coming on. My symtons are pain in my left

>side, just above the hip bone, but towards my back. (it is increasing in

>intensity) Also, feeling of fatigue and slight fever. I have begun drinking

>craberry juice and I will get some black cherry juice tomorrw. I also will

>get some cranberry tablets. Other than that I am not quite sure what to do.

>I now am the proud owner of 3 herbal books, but I cannot get a clear

>understanding of how to treat myself. Any info would be appreciated, as I am

>getting more and more uncomfortable.

>Thank ou,

>Gerri

>

Gerri, the symptoms you describe can also be related to endometriosis.  Do

you have solid diagnosis of your condition?  One should never treat oneself

for disease with herbs without considerable knowledge.  Safe tonic herbs are

another matter.

Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 26 Sep 1996 07:22:51 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Linda K Shipley <lindashipley@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: How do you know if you're doing something wrong when you feel

              great?



on the recipe for meno.,  how much is one 'part'?(della noche)



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 24 Sep 1996 09:00:06 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960924033748.0067fb70@pop.televar.com>



>Cold Pressed cold processed olive oil

>

>two teaspoon a day might help keep the bumpys away

>

>(Contains genorous amount of efas

>

>Ron

>

>abc@televar.com



Actually, that isn't particularly so. Olive oil, almost all of which is

expeller pressed anyhow, is mono-unsaturated, which means that it is rather

low in EFA's, compared to other poly-unsaturated oils.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 24 Sep 1996 17:27:10 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Kathy Lingo <Lingo4@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: cat's claw



Pat,



Why don't you post your info on cat's claw to the list so that we can all

learn from it?



Thanks,



Kathy



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 26 Sep 1996 09:54:13 +0000

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <melodie@mail.infomed.ca>

From:         Melodie Hutmacher <melodie@MAIL.INFOMED.CA>

Subject:      Persistant cough



Hello to all,



I was wondering if someone could help me with a *remedy* for a

child's cough.  I have seen four doctors who all say it is

nothing but a simple cold, even though this cough has lasted four

months.  It started 4 days after my 9 year old son's tonsils came out

and has been there ever since.  My son has an overactive mucus

membrane and constantly has a phlegm buildup which usually leads to

him clearing his throat often - this cough is making matters worse!

It is a little alarming since he sometimes struggles for breath

during these coughing fits (he does not have Asthma), and he has

always been a very healthy (and very active) boy, until this.



If anyone can suggest something to ease his

discomfort, it would be very appreciated!



Melodie Hutmacher

InfoMed Development Corp.

--------------------------------

melodie@infomed.ca



"It's better to be boldly decisive

than and risk being wrong than to

agonize at length and be right too

late" --Marilyn Moats Kennedy

--------------------------------



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 26 Sep 1996 10:05:49 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      'Tonics,' was Re: kidney infection

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960925070829.00aedd80@mail.halcyon.com>



>Safe tonic herbs are

>another matter.

>Marcia Elston



Not to bore, but the term 'tonic' is being misapplied throughout the herb

field these days. Blame Ron Teeguarden and others for using this word to

refer to the Boosting herbs in Chinese healing---but the term 'tonic' means

that it **improves muscle tone**. The terms in Chinese do NOT mean that, in

the direct way meant by the term 'tonic,' anyhow.



Tonics generally 'tone' the heart muscle or the digestive tract. The casual

use of this term is eroding the conceptual frame of European herbalism yet

some more.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Tue, 24 Sep 1996 21:26:08 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Daniel Miller <un106@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>

Subject:      test



test



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Wed, 25 Sep 1996 07:27:10 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Bryan W Harp <bharp@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Elder Berry



What is known about the Elder Berry. They grow natural in our fence rows,

and are now ready for harvesting. I know that many make jelly from the

juice of the berry. Are there any benefits eating Elder Berry, and its

products? Are there any harms?



------------------>Bryan Harp ----  E-mail:

bharp@juno.com<---------------

--------------------> Woodlawn,TN  37191<---------------



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:44:49 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         J L Hoover <72724.60@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject:      Top Ten (Waste of Time)



I apologize in advance for this complete waste of bandwidth...



The Top Ten Things I've Learned on the Herb List.



Number Ten.    "What's an herb?" is *NOT* a simple question.

Number Nine.   The difference between poison and medicine is dosage.

Number Eight.  Coffee is a Bad Thing.

Number Seven.  Some people prefer Politeness to Truth. (Some don't.)

Number Six.    Howie doesn't say much. (Possibly due to herb smoking)

Number Five.   Poison Ivy sucks.

Number Four.   When Henriette says cool it, COOL IT!

Number Three.  Disclaim, Disclaim, Disclaim.

Number Two.    Fruit is Sweet, Damp and Moist.



And the number one thing I have learned on the Herb List...



    Dammit, I like Paul!!!!

-------------------------------------------------------------------



I apologize once again for wasting everybody's time... but since

there is a lull...



Jayel Hoover

72724.60@compuserve.com

-----------------------------------------------------------

+--+--+        If you overesteem great men,

|  |  |        people become powerless.

+--+  |            -Lao tzu

|  |  |

+--+--+

   |  |

   |  |



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 26 Sep 1996 18:19:46 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: 'Tonics,' was Re: kidney infection



At 10:05 AM 9/26/96 -0700, you wrote:

>>Safe tonic herbs are

>>another matter.

>>Marcia Elston

>

>Not to bore, but the term 'tonic' is being misapplied throughout the herb

>field these days. Blame Ron Teeguarden and others for using this word to

>refer to the Boosting herbs in Chinese healing---but the term 'tonic' means

>that it **improves muscle tone**. The terms in Chinese do NOT mean that, in

>the direct way meant by the term 'tonic,' anyhow.

>

>Tonics generally 'tone' the heart muscle or the digestive tract. The casual

>use of this term is eroding the conceptual frame of European herbalism yet

>some more.

>

>Paul

>

The term tonic is being and has always been used very broadly and it

includes those herbs used for millennia to restore energy, strengthen the

spirit and tonify particular body organs (not just the heart muscle and

digestive tract.)  Tonic does not just apply to improving muscle tone and

the digestive tract.  One can use tonic herbs for the nervous system and the

reproductive systems, the respiratory system, the urinary system, the

musculo-skeletal system , the skin,  the immune system, as well as the

cardio-vascular and digestive systems, These herbs can be classified in

numerous ways: alterative, anti-catarrhal, anti-inflammatory,

Anti-microbial,  Anti-rheumatic, Anti-spasmodic, Astringent,  Bitter,

Cardiac remedial, Carminative, Cholagogue, Demulcent, Diuretic,

Emmenagogues,  Expectorants,  Hepatics, Hypnotic, Hypotensive,  Nervine,

Stimulant, etc.  They can be used for boosting energy, nourishing blood or

body fluids, balancing the "humors" of Ayurvedic medicine, strenghtening

immunity, or stimulating vital essence.  Most herbalists associate the

various tonic herbs with particular organs and channels of the body.  My

point was that most of the safe tonic herbs are those that can be used by

the informed layperson, but not during acute illness without professional

guidance.



Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 26 Sep 1996 18:28:34 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: Elder Berry



At 07:27 AM 9/25/96 EDT,  Bryan W Harp <bharp@juno.com> wrote:

>What is known about the Elder Berry. They grow natural in our fence rows,

>and are now ready for harvesting. I know that many make jelly from the

>juice of the berry. Are there any benefits eating Elder Berry, and its

>products? Are there any harms?

>

>------------------>Bryan Harp ----  E-mail:

>bharp@juno.com<---------------

>--------------------> Woodlawn,TN  37191<---------------

>

Hello Bryan,



Common elder (Sambucus nigra) has been called "the medicine chest of the

people," providing remedies for most common complaints.   Revered by gypsies

and associated with the Jewish kabbalah.  Historically, all parts of S.

nigra are used medicinally, but modern usage favors the flowers.  They

contain a plant acid that is anti-inflammatory, flavonoids (including rutin

as found in Ruta graveolens), and fixed oil.  The leaves contain toxic

cyanogenic glycosides (as found in Prunus species.)  Parts used:  Leaves,

bark, flowers, fruits.  It is a bitter, pungent, cooling herb that lowers

fever, reduces inflammation, soothes irritation and has diuretic, alterative

and antimucus effects (flowers/fruits).  Leaves are insecticidal,

antiseptic.  Medicinal uses include internally for influenza, colds, excess

mucus, sinusitis and feverish illnesses (flowers/fruits) and rheumatic

complaints (fruits) and constipation and arthritic conditions (bark).

Externally for minor burns and chilblains (leaves/bark), sore eyes,

irritated or inflamed skin, mouth ulcers and minor injuries (flowers).

Combines well with Mentha x piperita, Achillea millefolium, Hyssopus

officinalis or Tilia cordata for upper respiratory tract infections

(flowers/fruit) and with Menyanthes trifoliata or Salix alba for rheumatism

(fruits.)



Fruits are made into wine and ketchup, also.  Leaves can also be boiled and

strained for an insecticidal spray.



Regards,

Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 26 Sep 1996 18:59:54 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Persistant cough

In-Reply-To:  <199609261651.JAA14765@mail.infomed.ca>



>Hello to all,

>

>I was wondering if someone could help me with a *remedy* for a

>child's cough.  I have seen four doctors who all say it is

>nothing but a simple cold, even though this cough has lasted four

>months.  It started 4 days after my 9 year old son's tonsils came out

>and has been there ever since.  My son has an overactive mucus

>membrane and constantly has a phlegm buildup which usually leads to

>him clearing his throat often - this cough is making matters worse!

>It is a little alarming since he sometimes struggles for breath

>during these coughing fits (he does not have Asthma), and he has

>always been a very healthy (and very active) boy, until this.



Do you feed him fruit or fruit juice? DON'T.



>If anyone can suggest something to ease his

>discomfort, it would be very appreciated!

>

>Melodie Hutmacher



Take him off all fruit and fruit juice, and feed warm foods instead of

sandwiches and finger food. That should cut the symptoms considerably.



Secondarily, see if he will drink peppermint tea. It is mildly Drying, and

will help clear away residual Toxin remaining from the tonsilitis.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 26 Sep 1996 19:14:31 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection



>Actually, that isn't particularly so. Olive oil, almost all of which is

>expeller pressed anyhow, is mono-unsaturated, which means that it is rather

>low in EFA's, compared to other poly-unsaturated oils.

>

>Paul

>

>



This is true and I am sorry for having said Extra Virgin Olive Oil.  But I

think that Grape seed oil was more in the lines of what I should have said.



Is that maybe right Paul?



Ron



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 26 Sep 1996 11:11:03 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Howie Brounstein <howieb@TELEPORT.COM>

Subject:      Website Update



Netters,



My website has been updated with many new links. More herbal databases to

search out your herb questions, more plant lists, more class information

(oops, no advertising), more late night ramblings, more stupid herb jokes,

and links to check if that plant really is endangered.



Check it out! I hope you find it useful.







Howie Brounstein

howieb@teleport.com

http://www.teleport.com/~howieb/howie.html



"It's easy to harvest wild plants, the hard part is not harvesting."



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 26 Sep 1996 23:28:38 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Patricia C. McMullen" <Redgato@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Una de Gato



Okay!!  Alright!!  So here's the info on Cat's Claw.  I didn't know if I

should waste everyone's time and computer "space" with the longish post but

here it is due to popular request!



I apologize for the somewhat disorganized presentation but I was just trying

to get the requested information to the concerned parties as quickly as

possible.  I do have more information- of a more technical nature, but this

gives an overall view of the plant and the studies being done on it.  Hope

this information is helpful!



Cat's Claw (Uncaria Tomentosa, Gmel. Rubiaceae) or Una de Gato, Paraguayo,

Garabato, Una de Gavilan, or Hawk's Claw.   Uncaria guianesis is also known

as Cat's Claw or Una de Gato and is a related species.



Uncaria (Rubiaceae) has several species including: uncaria attenuata, U.

bernaysii, U. calophylla, U. elleptica, U. ferrea DC, U. gambir, U.

Guianensis, U. kawakamii, U. orientalis, U. pteropoda, and U. rhyncophylla.



Active compounds in the plant:  oxindole-alkaloids (pteropodine,

isopteropodine, speciophylline, uncarine, mitraphylline, isomitraphylline),

N-oxide, rhynocophylline N-oxide carboline alkaloid, hirustine N-oxide

triterpenes, polyphynols, phytosterols (stigmasterol and campsterol).  The

family Rubiaceae, to which Cat's Claw belongs, is rich in triterpenoid

saponins.  Phytochemical studies of the root bark resluted in the isolation

of the main alkaloid called isoteropodine.  In addition, Peruvian and Italian

researchers have discovered a whole host of phytochemicals including

proanthocyanidin, which has already established itself as a powerful

antioxidant.



Character:  anti-inflammatory, anti-rheumatic, antioxidant, anti-viral,

anti-tumor, anti-mocrobial, cytostatic activities, immune system enhancer,

and contraceptive.



Body systems targeted:  immune system. intestinal system, and cardiovascular

system.



Safety:  studies have shown that Uncaria tomentosa has extremely low toxicity

even when taken in large doses.  It should not be taken, however, by anyone

who has had an organ transplant, or by pregnant or nursing women.



The Uncaria vine commonly grows in the foothills of the Amazon and along its

river banks, taking a great deal of time to grow and mature.  It isn't

unusual for a Uncaria vine to take more than 20 years to reach full size,

which can be over 100 feet in length.  Uncaria species typically grow in

jungle regions from the Amazonian Basin in the south, to the jungle areas of

Junin.  current harvesting of the Uncaria vine involves only the bark.  The

roots of the plant are carefully protected in order to preserve the plant and

further its propagation.  The Peruvian government has taken certain steps to

ensure that supplies of Uncaria will not become exhausted due to imprudent

harvesting.  Peruvian legislation has made harvesting the root of both U.

tomentose and U. guianensis illegal.  this ruling is not problematic for

medical botanists because the bark contains all the therapeutic attributes of

the herb.  The edible bark of both species grows back and continually

replinishes itself.  On the other hand, extricating or cutting the root

causes the vine to perish.



Cat's Claw has traditionally been used to treat arthritis, gastritis, tumors,

dysentery, and female hormonal imbalances.  Today, the plant has demonstrated

the ability to treat viral infections, minimize inflammation, and provide

therapeutic action for a variety of stomach and bowel disorders.  Phillip N.

Steinberg, a Certified Nutritinal consultant has stated:  "Uncaria tomentosa

has so many therapeutic applications that it seems to far surpass such well

known herbs as Pau d'arco, echinacea, goldenseal, astragalus, Artemesia

annua, Siberian and Panax ginsing, as well as maitake, shiitake, and reishi

mushrooms and other natural products including grapefruit seed extract,

caprylic and lauric acids and shark cartilage" (from the Biology of Vines)



Four of the alkaloids found in Cat's Claw exhibit significant activity on

phagocytosis (the process in which certain white blood cells called

macrophages attack and literally digest infectious organisms and foreign

invaders in the body).



The antioxidant action of Cat's Claw:  several studies have concluded that

Uncaria isolates have several beneficial constituents which act as free

radical scavengers.  Isolates of the plant have the ability to protect the

cells from mutating, which is what occurs when tumors develope.  This

anti-mutagenis activity was observed by Italian researchers in 1992 at the

University of Milan. Smoking is one of the worst sources of oxidative stress

caused by the release of millions of free radicals. The Italian researchers

studied the effects of an aqueous alcoholic infusion of Uncatia tomentosa on

people who smoke.  The results showed antimutagenic activity in vivo in

smokers, confirming the plant's high antioxidant potential.  Cat's Claw can

help protect cells from a number of potentially harmful environmental

substances including:  herbicides, pesticides, smog, car exhaust, x-rays,

ultra-violet light, gamma radiation, rancid foods, certain fats, alcohol,

stress, and poor diets that are high in fat and protein.



The high content of proanthocyanidins in Cat's Claw  aids in capillary

protection, anti-inflammatory action in cases of joint pain and injuries,

anti-edemic, antihistamine, reduces the risk of diabetic complications such

as retinopathy.



The rynchophylline found in Cat's Claw has proven itself to be an inhibiot of

platelet formation and thrombosis.  This means that it inhibits the

formamation of blood clots.  The alkaloid compounds in Cat's Claw may reduce

the risk of stroke and heart attack.  It also enhances the circulation of the

blood and lessens the formation of arterial plaque deposits.



The immune system boosting effects of Cat's Claw:  effective against colds,

flu, sore throats, herpes, colitis, etc.  It is a natural anti-viral and

immune systerm booster.  Krallendon, an extract of Uncaria tomentose is the

bioactive component of the plant which has been used to successfully treat

genital herpes, herpes zoster, and AIDS (used by Dr. Dietmar Keplinger).

 Various biological activities have been attributed to the triterpenoid

saponins found in Cat's Claw.  Glycoside glycyrrhizin and glycyrrhetinic acid

have exhibited the ability to inhibit the multiplication of some DNA viruses.

 In addition, all nine compounds (from Cat's Claw) tested showed an

inhibitory effect against the vesicular stomatitis virus when used in certain

concentrations.



Krallendon is the commercial name for one of the constituents of Uncaria

tomentosa that has been used to treat AIDS patients either as an isolated

treatment or in conjunction with AZT.  This combination apparently helps to

inhibit the reproduction of the HIV virus in the blood while it

simultaneously activates the immune system.  This same effect was seen on

cancerous cells.  European health practitioners are currently testing and

using Cat' Claw as a potential treatment for various cancers.  Cat's Claw may

work to lower the risk of cancer in two ways. It has the ability to act as an

antioxidant and may scavenge for carcinogenic substances which can cause the

formation of cancer cells.  In addition, scientific studies may have shown

that it can specifically target cellular mutations such as leukemic cells and

inhibit their development.  During the course of Austrian research on Cat's

Claw, its oxindole alkaloids were tested for their antileukemic effects on

cells which may suggest that these compounds have value as treatments for

leukemia.  Colormetric testing  was only one of the ways the compounds were

tested and showed that all the oxindole alkaloids, with the exception of one,

inhibited the growth of certain leukemic cells.  Interestingly, while

leukemic cell activity was inhibited, normal bone marror cells were not

affected.  Cat's Claw also supports the body during chemotherapy and

radiation threatments, working as an antioxidant in helping to remove toxic

metabolites and in providing support to an already weakened immune system.



Sorry this has gone on for so long but I hope it gives you some useful

information.  I have used Cat's Claw regularly for about a year.  If I think

I may be getting a cold or sore throat, I take it every two hours. I have not

had a cold or cough since I've been taking the Cat's Claw (which is important

because I'm a church organist and music director and I used to get laryngitis

about the time we had our annual Christmas Cantata rehearsals and I would

always lose my voice!). I used it as a last resort on a cat that had had

multiple surgeries to close a surgical wound that wouldn't heal (had fat

necrosis etc,).  I figured that it couldn't hurt the situation.  I mixed the

Cat's Claw in an ointment base and put it on the incision which was draining

and open after several weeks of healing time.  The next day the incision was

closed.  My vet still can't explain what happened.  I told him what I did but

he wasn't familiar with the herb.  I can't explain it either, but it worked!!



My husband has always been an advocate of vitamins and herbs but I have been

a fan of the medical establishment as I have a degree in clinical chemistry

and microbiology{BSMT(ASCP)} and my family members were medical prefessionals

(MD's and RN's).  Guess I've finally been won over to the benefits of some

alternative medicines.  We finally managed to find a very reputable company

(that uses no pesticides on its products, so we understand) that we could get

herbs and vitamins from wholesale.



If you have anymore questions, email me.  I have plenty of resources I can

check for you.



Pat



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:31:21 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Howie Brounstein <howieb@TELEPORT.COM>

Subject:      Re: Top Ten (Waste of Time)



"Hey, do you like Valerian?"  "Yeah, man, I dig it!"





>Number Six.    Howie doesn't say much. (Possibly due to herb smoking)





Perhaps, but you'll never know for sure..  Actually, it's because I'm doing

other things. The last six months I have been primarily in the woods,

sometimes for days at a time, teaching herbalism, teaching ethical

wildcrafting, botany. Occasionally something really perks my interest ......

but I have other writing projects besides the herb list, like a book.



So I'll copy this post I just sent to alt.folklore.herbs (gasp!), and you

can remove #6 ....





>I was told by an herbalist friend of mine that the ingedient in

>Valerian which induces sleep is not water-soluble, so making a tea of

>it would do nothing for sleep....not to mention the fact that Valerian

>root (which is where the sleep stuff is) is notoriously odorous - I

>think it smells like sweaty socks from a gym locker, personally :)  So

>if you take it - and I know nothing about the toxicity or the build up

>of it in the liver, I would take it in a capsule form which are

>readily available.  It didn't do much for me, tho, I had to take about

>four of them to help me sleep.  YMMV, Consult a professional herbalist

>or homeopathic physician.

>



Funny, just last month I was sitting round the campfire with a group of

students. We had spent the day digging Valeriana sitchensis, dodging

helicopters carrying water to the fires burning around the area, botanizing,

and other herbal-type stuff. Most of the roots were to be washed in the

river the next day, but some of it we washed after dinner, chopped and ran

through a hand crank wheatgrass juicer, and made some fresh Valerian juice.

While the guest speakers talked of Valeriana chemistry, we tasted the fresh

juice. The results, not unexpected as I do this every year, was that

everyone felt the smell, the taste of the Valeriana, throughout their

bodies. As one student starts renaming the constellations to reflect

teapots, tincture presses, and popular herbalists, I think of how complex

herbs really are, the closer we look, the less we know. Some folks were

strongly stimulated, others quieted. Valerian acts differently on different

people, depending on dosage and personal constitution.





I beg to differ opinions with your herbalist friend. The water extract of

valerian is unquestionably effective, from years of first-hand experience.

In fact, I believe fresh root tea to be the most effective way to ingest

Valerian. But, there are constituents that boil away at relatively low

temperatures. If you boil the valerian root, as you generally do with roots,

than you loose much of the effect but leave most of the smell. This is

probably why your friend has heard that Valeriana tea in useless.



Therefore, steep your valerian root in luke warm water for a day.



I grind the fresh root in a blender,  cover it with water to form a mush,

let sit a day, squeeze it through some muslin cloth, and viola (or should I

say Valeriana) --- musky earthy tea fit for the heartiest of taste buds. But

a small cup will impart a strong sensation throughout the body.





And, to top it all off, current research trends indicate that the main

active constituent is not what it used to be. In fact, even though valerian

chemistry is one of the more studied, the experts are no longer sure what

the active ingredient is. Another reason to use the WHOLE PLANT, not some

extract from dead material standardized to a certain percentage of some

possibly active ingredient, ignoring the other constituents, destroying any

possibility of natural synergistic effects from the WHOLE PLANT'S complex of

chemicals, perhaps even filtering out truly important components.





I personally do not like dried valerian, and will always go with fresh root,

or fresh root tincture if the fresh root is unavailable. They differ

chemically, but the choice is indeed personal.



Howie Brounstein

howieb@teleport.com

http://www.teleport.com/~howieb/howie.html



"It's easy to harvest wild plants, the hard part is not harvesting."



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 04:36:54 GMT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         AmyW <bobvilla@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Chinese Herbs



Hello to all,



I have read this list with interest for several months...especially

the posts about Chinese herbs.  I have been buying them for my

husbands allergies for about a year now.  I've been going thru two

companies...Nature's Sunshine and Sunrider International.



Has anyone on the list had any experiences...good or bad with these

companies products?  Appreciate any experiences.



Thanks



DosBabe@juno.com

email bobvilla@televar.com



Yesterday is History, Tomorrows a Mystery, Today is

a Gift - That's why it's called the Present.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 26 Sep 1996 22:35:33 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Anita Hales <hales1@KTN.NET>

Subject:      Excessive mucous



My neighbor stopped me in the store to ask if I knew how to help her son.

He is 13 years old.  For the last 6 days he has been unable to eat anything

because of thick mucous in his throat.  It gags him and he can't keep the

food down.  IT seems to stick in the throat.  His tongue is coated with a

white to almost yellow coating (the whole upper surface) and he looks

slightly bloated at the face.  The doctor told her he just has a cold (pay

your $60 and go home).

  I suspect he is somewhat dehydrated because he hasn't eaten.  I also

suspect he may have digestion and or spleen and maybe liver problems.  I

would suggest peppermint, ginger, black pepper and anise to warm digestion.

This is not the first time this has occurred with this boy.  He has often

had this problem.  Perhaps Paul or others have some ideas for this

distressed mom.

***********************************************************

* Wild Strawberries:  "...water distilled from the        *

* berries is good for the passions of the heart caused by *

* perterbation of the spirit."                            *



*    John Parkinson, 1640                                 *

*_________________________________________________________*

*Anita Hales, hales1@alaska.ktn.net                       *

***********************************************************



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 26 Sep 1996 22:59:16 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Anita Hales <hales1@KTN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Chinese Herbs



At 04:36 AM 9/27/96 GMT, AmyW wrote:

>Hello to all,

>

>I have read this list with interest for several months...especially

>the posts about Chinese herbs.  I have been buying them for my

>husbands allergies for about a year now.  I've been going thru two

>companies...Nature's Sunshine and Sunrider International.

>

>Has anyone on the list had any experiences...good or bad with these

>companies products?  Appreciate any experiences.

>

>Thanks

>

>

Sunrider is WAAAYYYY too expensive for what you get.  Go to your local

Chinese herb shop for better prices and more traditional (e.g. tried and

true) combinations.  Sunrider has some weird stuff.  Too much hype.  Too

expensive.

Nature's Sunshine is better.  The combinations are very general however, to

meet  broad needs.  I've found them useful and the prices are competitive.

But still, I've found it better to get my herbs from a Chinese herbalist.

***********************************************************

* Wild Strawberries:  "...water distilled from the        *

* berries is good for the passions of the heart caused by *

* perterbation of the spirit."                            *



*    John Parkinson, 1640                                 *

*_________________________________________________________*

*Anita Hales, hales1@alaska.ktn.net                       *

***********************************************************



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Thu, 26 Sep 1996 22:59:13 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Anita Hales <hales1@KTN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Persistant cough



At 09:54 AM 9/26/96 +0000, Melodie Hutmacher wrote:

>Hello to all,

>

>I was wondering if someone could help me with a *remedy* for a

>child's cough.  I have seen four doctors who all say it is

>nothing but a simple cold, even though this cough has lasted four

>months.  It started 4 days after my 9 year old son's tonsils came out

>and has been there ever since.  My son has an overactive mucus

>membrane and constantly has a phlegm buildup which usually leads to

>him clearing his throat often - this cough is making matters worse!

>It is a little alarming since he sometimes struggles for breath

>during these coughing fits (he does not have Asthma), and he has

>always been a very healthy (and very active) boy, until this.

>

>If anyone can suggest something to ease his

>discomfort, it would be very appreciated!

>

>

Use peppermint and ginger to warm the digestion and spleen.  It should help

with the mucous thereby helping the cough.  Anise can help too.  mix equal

parts of the powdered herbs and make a paste with honey.  Give 1/2 tsp

before meals.

***********************************************************

* Wild Strawberries:  "...water distilled from the        *

* berries is good for the passions of the heart caused by *

* perterbation of the spirit."                            *



*    John Parkinson, 1640                                 *

*_________________________________________________________*

*Anita Hales, hales1@alaska.ktn.net                       *

***********************************************************



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 01:19:32 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: 'Tonics,' was Re: kidney infection

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960927011946.00aee324@mail.halcyon.com>



>>Tonics generally 'tone' the heart muscle or the digestive tract. The casual

>>use of this term is eroding the conceptual frame of European herbalism yet

>>some more.

>>

>>Paul

>>

>The term tonic is being and has always been used very broadly and it

>includes those herbs used for millennia to restore energy, strengthen the

>spirit and tonify particular body organs (not just the heart muscle and

>digestive tract.)



Well, that is flat out incorrect. The lay misuse of this term from herbal

humoral medicine has now been accepted by modern herbalists in further

perversion of the concept! No wonder the practice of European and Native

American herbalism is falling apart. The theoretical matrix is moth-eaten.



In eightenth/nineteenth century herbalism, 'tonification' was PRIMARILY the

use of herbs to tone the bowel MUSCLE after purgation, or to tone heart

MUSCLE. I dare you to find a reference to 'toning' the kidneys, for

instance. There isn't any muscle in the kidney to speak of, and the concept

NEVER was applied to that organ, during the, shall we say, theoretical era

of European herbal healing.



Find an instance of reference to the concept you put forward above in any

older text! 'Millenia'! You jest. IN WHAT LANGUAGE? Certainly, this

conception never extended to the Greeks or Romans, who used the term **as

they intended**. And THERE IS CERTAINLY NO SUCH TERM in Chinese.



The term enters the English medical language (according to OED) in 1693:



"Tonica, those things which being externally applied to, and rubb'd into

the Limbs, strengthen the Nerves and Tendons."



The next reference is from 1799:



"When...the hectic symptoms were subdued, and only weakness remained,

tonics completed the cure."



This usage, in other words, referred to an herbal product that restored

MUSCLE tone to a flaccid or weakened organ, or by extension to a flaccid

body. SEDATIVES cannot be TONICS, in other words. ANTI-SPASMODICS cannot be

tonics. HYPOTENSIVES CANNOT, IN ANY LOGIC, BE TONICS! They do not increase

the tone of the organ at all. Such usage is oxymoronic.



>These herbs can be classified in

>numerous ways: alterative, anti-catarrhal, anti-inflammatory,

>Anti-microbial,  Anti-rheumatic, Anti-spasmodic, Astringent,  Bitter,

>Cardiac remedial, Carminative, Cholagogue, Demulcent, Diuretic,

>Emmenagogues,  Expectorants,  Hepatics, Hypnotic, Hypotensive,  Nervine,

>Stimulant, etc.



That is a whole HOST of classifiers! On the basis of your argument there

are next to NO herbs which AREN'T tonics! Doesn't that seem a bit absurd to

you?



Name an herb that is NOT a tonic, then. Nux vomica, maybe...causes extreme,

even permanent, tonicity.



You could as well simply call plants used in healing 'tonics,' instead of

herbs.



Look at the energetics: Most true tonics are BITTER and ASTRINGENT. This

'refreshing bitterness' was extended in the popular language to refer to

'bracingly' cold weather, which certainly astringes the pores, but

herbalists AT LEAST should recognize their own Naturopathic logic and

praxis, and endeavor to retain the conceptual purity of their terminology!



Bitterness and astringency are NOT factors in herbs such as ginseng, which

is sweet and juicy. Nor could peppermint be called a tonic, even though it

'improves' digestion and appetite. It is an 'aperient,' a 'digestive.'

Turning to a single term because of some supposed poverty of the language

of herbs ORPHANS the rest of the herbal healing language, in favor of mush.



>They can be used for boosting energy, nourishing blood or

>body fluids, balancing the "humors" of Ayurvedic medicine,



Horsefeathers. I defy you to find **the** term in Ayurveda that is

equivalent to 'tonic' in the way you are using it. Sattva, maybe. Sattva

balances the humors. How is the term Sattva, literally 'pure,' like ANY

term in Chinese healing, or, for that matter, in European healing? The

underlying conception in Ayurveda, that health is a state of purity, DOES

NOT EXIST in either European healing (except that of the Church) or Chinese

healing.



In any case, for the most part Ayurveda verges on being a hodgepodge of

therapeutic ideas, mystical hopes, and fantasy. It does not improve as a

system of therapy by employing essentially meaningless translational terms.



Indeed, aloe vera is referred to as a liver tonic by Vasant Lad [it is

essentially a Cold laxative that purges fire]. This usage of the term tonic

mirrors European therapeutic ideas, in which the liver was 'drained' in

order to restore its function. Such a concept, however, has NOTHING to do

with the underlying meaning of the term 'tonic,' and covers over that term

with ambiguities. What is meant is 'purgative.' Compare aloe vera to

ginseng. What is the correlation? THERE IS NONE. One is a laxative, thought

to promote health in Naturopathy or Ayurveda; the other is a boosting herb,

thought to promote the earth Qi in Chinese healing. They have, in fact,

antagonistic properties...you would categorically NOT give aloe vera to

someone who needs ginseng.



Such usages should not be encouraged by herbalists. When Lad says further

that aloe is a tonic to the uterus---because it relaxes spasms[!]---he is

simply furthering a perversion of English.



___You will absolutely NOT find such a term in Chinese herbalism or

language___. Chinese healing is a dicotomous healing science that does NOT,

EVER, consider any herbal product a 'tonic,' in the broad meaning you and

others are assigning the term. It would depend entirely on the patient

whether any herbal formula would help or harm them. Chinese herbalism quite

simply is more advanced than the language of panacea, though many---far too

many---cheapo translations and crappy texts, mostly from the fringes of the

tradition, give that impression. People, including authors, mistake

honoring plants for claims of panacea. Or they reproduce, noncritically,

the ravings of folk healing. The tradition as it stands has rejected such

hysteria. ***The yinyang parameterization will dictate the steps to be

taken, period. NOT some kind of term that has no meaning whatsoever

therapeutically.***



The terms in Chinese usually translated 'tonic' by boneheads with no

appreciation of subtleties are 'jian,' which means 'fortify,' and 'bu'

which means 'supplement.' Neither carries the meaning of 'toning muscle' as

a primary meaning [though 'jian-ing' the Spleen WILL tone the muscles as an

effect of that Organs sphere of activity]---in fact, increasing muscle tone

is a negative when it comes to enriching the Yin aspect of the Liver, which

should soften muscle tone. Nor can you 'tone' the spirit in any way I can

imagine, though you may well harmonize it, sedate it, nourish it---even in

Chinese healing 'engender it'!



There is simply no such vague concept as 'tonic' in Chinese healing.

Astringent, 'se,' is as close as you can come, though in some usages

'jian-ing' will indeed tone the Stomach and Bowels.



A short glossary of Chinese terms referring to enhancing the function of an

Organ or Tissue:



fu      support

yang    nourish

yu      foster

zi      enrich

yi      boost

qiang   strengthen



zhuang  invigorate [this term, as a translation term, seems to come near

the term 'tonic,' except you zhuang the Bones. Go figure.]



jian    fortify

bu      supplement



These terms MAY NOT be used as synonyms, are always associated with a

specific Organ system or tissue, in idioms, and you will notice that

nowhere is there a term which linguist/doctors believe needs the

translation 'tonic.' People with VASTLY more knowledge about Chinese

healing than you or any number of half-baked popularizers dispute the

foolishness of such a translation term.



>strenghtening

>immunity, or stimulating vital essence.  Most herbalists associate the

>various tonic herbs with particular organs and channels of the body.  My

>point was that most of the safe tonic herbs are those that can be used by

>the informed layperson, but not during acute illness without professional

>guidance.



Why not? Golden seal is a true tonic, bitter and astringent. Go ahead and

use it all you like during the acute illness of a cold or flu. Just don't

Jian-fortify your Digestion with ginseng when you have food poisoning. The

walls of the castle you build with its Qi will trap the Pathogen inside.



>Marcia Elston



Very poor use of language, no matter how widespread.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 01:39:37 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Excessive mucous

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960927063533.00670244@alaska.ktn.net>



>My neighbor stopped me in the store to ask if I knew how to help her son.

>He is 13 years old.  For the last 6 days he has been unable to eat anything

>because of thick mucous in his throat.  It gags him and he can't keep the

>food down.  IT seems to stick in the throat.  His tongue is coated with a

>white to almost yellow coating (the whole upper surface) and he looks

>slightly bloated at the face.  The doctor told her he just has a cold (pay

>your $60 and go home).

>  I suspect he is somewhat dehydrated because he hasn't eaten.  I also

>suspect he may have digestion and or spleen and maybe liver problems.  I

>would suggest peppermint, ginger, black pepper and anise to warm digestion.

>This is not the first time this has occurred with this boy.  He has often

>had this problem.  Perhaps Paul or others have some ideas for this

>distressed mom.



Warming the Digestion when yellow colors (Heat) are present is not

recommended. This sounds like a case of Food Stagnation, NOT an infection.

If the parent is a bit daring, try a saltwater emetic treatment, or you can

use some ipecac (but I recommend salt water). Follow vomiting with some

thin broth with ginger to settle the stomach.



The diet of this child is probably quite poor in some way (too many sweets,

too much beef, ice cream, something).



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 01:27:05 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Una de Gato

In-Reply-To:  <960926232837_112022568@emout19.mail.aol.com>



>If you have anymore questions, email me.  I have plenty of resources I can

>check for you.

>

>Pat



Care to disclaim a commercial interest?



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 01:30:07 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Chinese Herbs

In-Reply-To:  <324b2435.15004407@pop.televar.com>



>Hello to all,

>

>I have read this list with interest for several months...especially

>the posts about Chinese herbs.  I have been buying them for my

>husbands allergies for about a year now.  I've been going thru two

>companies...Nature's Sunshine and Sunrider International.

>

>Has anyone on the list had any experiences...good or bad with these

>companies products?  Appreciate any experiences.

>

>Thanks

>

>DosBabe@juno.com



Sunrider's formulas are a hopeless mess. And am I confused this late at

night to think they are the ones marketing Cali tea, the caffeine rich

beverage that no one knows has caffeine because they were lied to? NOT a

good company, imio.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 01:24:46 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960927021431.0067df2c@pop.televar.com>



>>Actually, that isn't particularly so. Olive oil, almost all of which is

>>expeller pressed anyhow, is mono-unsaturated, which means that it is rather

>>low in EFA's, compared to other poly-unsaturated oils.

>>

>>Paul

>>

>>

>

>This is true and I am sorry for having said Extra Virgin Olive Oil.  But I

>think that Grape seed oil was more in the lines of what I should have said.

>

>Is that maybe right Paul?

>

>Ron



Grape seed oil? I don't know. Kind of an obscure product, don't you think?

Grape seed oil is mostly touted as a sorce of proanthocyanidins,

antioxidants. Flax seed oil, now there's the ticket. But I fail to see how

flax seed oil will resolve chronic kidney infections, which it is fairly

clear this person suffers from.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:41:00 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Patricia C. McMullen" <Redgato@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Una de Gato



In a message dated 96-09-27 04:47:55 EDT, you write:



<< If you have anymore questions, email me.  I have plenty of resources I can

 >check for you.

 >

 >Pat



 Care to disclaim a commercial interest?



 Paul >>



I MOST CERTAINLY WIOULD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



The reason I didn't post this "message" in the first place was a direct

result of some of the other posts and smart*** replies that I have read as I

have beed "lurking" on the sidelines for several weeks on this and several

other lists.



When someone asked a legitimate question and I had sources to answer it, I

tried  to help.  I sent the message directly to those who requested it.  It

was with great trepidation that I posted the message "publically" last night

after being asked several times to do so.



As I said in my message, I am an ASCP (American Society of Clinical

Pathologists) registered medical technologist but not working that field now.

  (You may check my AOL profile and that of my husband if you have access to

AOL).  I am a church organist and music director and I have a small business

as a manufacturer's representative for professional crafters.  I DO NOT own a

health food store or any type of  related enterprise.  I do, however, manage

to spend a lot of money at that type of establishment :).   So now, should I

be expected to go out and open a vitamin and herb shop because I have an

interest and a "small" library on the subjects?  Much of my interest in this

subject arose several years ago when first my father (a Medical Doctor) died

from metastatic prostate carcinoma and 18 months later my  mother (a

registered nurse) died after a long, long, stressful battle with multiple

melanoma.  Need I say anymore?



And now I will return to my lurking !!



Pat



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:47:33 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Patricia C. McMullen" <Redgato@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Una de Gato



Geez, Paul, you got me so upset, I couldn't even spell WOULD!! Well, NOW,

back to my lurking in the wings!



Pat



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 07:26:36 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: Excessive mucous



Dehydration and thick mucus are go hand in hand.  The boy needs water and

fluids.   Id say the kid would feel a heck of a lot better if he at least

drank more water (enough so that the mucus thins out)  Id stay away from

sugar or kool aid.  Try grapfruit juice.  Most gf concentrates dont have the

add white grape juice ( which is just one of sugars alternate names.  Hope

the kid does better.



Ron



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:21:11 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Howie Brounstein <howieb@TELEPORT.COM>

Subject:      Grape Seed Oil



>Grape seed oil? I don't know. Kind of an obscure product, don't you think?

>Grape seed oil is mostly touted as a sorce of proanthocyanidins,

>antioxidants.



Grape seed oil for kidneys? I haven't the foggiest. But I do like the

viscosity of grape seed oil, and it's ability to soak into the skin so

quickly and completely leaving so little oil on the surface. It seems ideal

for the herbal oils that you would want to go below the surface .... like

Hypericum/ grape seed oil for nerve injuries (cut you arm here, finger goes

numb there), or Comfrey/ grape seed oil for tendonitis. This would be

opposed to an olive or sesame oil extract of Comfrey for a cut, or an herbal

oil for a dry skin rash.



Another good use of Grape seed oil would be for Paul's Rose Petal Cream.

This oil when emulsified with rose water makes a wonderful moisturizing

cream with little oily residue.



Living in Eugene, Oregon  the center of political correctness, I see alot of

hemp seed oil. This product appears to have a similar quality as grape seed

.... soaks in quick, leaves little residue ... bad for a massage.



Howie Brounstein

howieb@teleport.com

http://www.teleport.com/~howieb/howie.html



"It's easy to harvest wild plants, the hard part is not harvesting."



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:03:41 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: kidney infection



I think the grapeseed oil and flax seed oil were mentioned to point out

sources of EFA's to the person with the kidney problems. It was a friendly

little blurp to be a part of the conversation.  I enjoy learning and would

like to be able to throw my two cents in here and there.  If anything,

Paul's unforgiving and unwavering devil's advocacy serves to educate and

guide me, if no one else, towards a more abrasive sense of wellness.



Ron



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:19:17 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Linda K Shipley <lindashipley@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Chinese Herbs



Tell me - what herbs and for what?  I just got an allergy shot and got

one shot in the spring.  I would like to find a way around that for not a

whole lot of money?  My allergies seem to be grass, mold, ragweed-the

usual.  Thanks.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:11:16 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Brian Murphy <NOLAspr@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Lipid soluble plant antibiotics



I am searching  for a list of plant substances that are antibiotics and that

are lipid solube. The names of the herbs would also be helpful.  The degree

of lipid solubility is also very important. If there anyone with reliable

information I would appreciate your assistance. thank you Brian



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:35:07 +0000

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <lsugar@bigwave.ca>

From:         LES <lsugar@BIGWAVE.CA>

Subject:      Re: Persistant cough



                Paul,

                      I don't want to sound like an alarmist but the

two encounters I had with persistant coughs had been the sign of

growing tumors.  My aunt had bad, deep cough for months 2 years ago

and she passed away last year of lung tumor and metastasized brain

tumor.  My wife had a bad cough for 3 months 7 years ago( she tried

to treat it with cough syrups)  and a year later she had to have

thymectomy (for an orange size thymus) in conjunction with myasthenia

gravis.  The moral is, don't neglect coughs..........get a thorough

check-up.

LES

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

> >Hello to all,

> >

> >I was wondering if someone could help me with a *remedy* for a

> >child's cough.  I have seen four doctors who all say it is

> >nothing but a simple cold, even though this cough has lasted four

> >months.  It started 4 days after my 9 year old son's tonsils came out

> >and has been there ever since.  My son has an overactive mucus

> >membrane and constantly has a phlegm buildup which usually leads to

> >him clearing his throat often - this cough is making matters worse!

> >It is a little alarming since he sometimes struggles for breath

> >during these coughing fits (he does not have Asthma), and he has

> >always been a very healthy (and very active) boy, until this.

>

> Do you feed him fruit or fruit juice? DON'T.

>

> >If anyone can suggest something to ease his

> >discomfort, it would be very appreciated!

> >

> >Melodie Hutmacher

>

> Take him off all fruit and fruit juice, and feed warm foods instead of

> sandwiches and finger food. That should cut the symptoms considerably.

>

> Secondarily, see if he will drink peppermint tea. It is mildly Drying, and

> will help clear away residual Toxin remaining from the tonsilitis.

>

> Paul

>

>



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:05:54 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Marcia Elston <samara@WINGEDSEED.COM>

Subject:      Re: 'Tonics,' was Re: kidney infection



At 01:19 AM 9/27/96 -0700,  Paul Iannone <pi2@loop.com> wrote:

>>>

>>The term tonic is being and has always been used very broadly and it

>>includes those herbs used for millennia to restore energy, strengthen the

>>spirit and tonify particular body organs (not just the heart muscle and

>>digestive tract.)

>

>Well, that is flat out incorrect. The lay misuse of this term from herbal

>humoral medicine has now been accepted by modern herbalists in further

>perversion of the concept! No wonder the practice of European and Native

>American herbalism is falling apart. The theoretical matrix is moth-eaten.



IMO, this is not incorrect.  Tonics are herbs that strengthen and enliven

either a specific organ or system, or the whole body.  The concept of system

tonics highlights the possibility of nourishing and toning the whole of a

body system.  This aids the structural form of the tissue and organs as well

as their functional activity without eliciting a specific psysiological or

biochemical response.  A characteristic of tonic herbs is that they are all

gentle remedies that have a mild yet profound effect upon the body.



>In eightenth/nineteenth century herbalism, 'tonification' was PRIMARILY the

>use of herbs to tone the bowel MUSCLE after purgation, or to tone heart

>MUSCLE. I dare you to find a reference to 'toning' the kidneys, for

>instance. There isn't any muscle in the kidney to speak of, and the concept

>NEVER was applied to that organ, during the, shall we say, theoretical era

>of European herbal healing.



The kidney is part of the urinary system, along with the ureter, bladder and

urethra.  This system CAN be nourished by tonic herbs that have specific

actions to improve overall functioning of the system.  To simplify my

earlier point, such herbs include those that are diuretic, and diuretic

herbs can be anti-inflammatory, anti-lithic, astringent, demulcent....any

number of actions.



>This usage, in other words, referred to an herbal product that restored

>MUSCLE tone to a flaccid or weakened organ, or by extension to a flaccid

>body. SEDATIVES cannot be TONICS, in other words. ANTI-SPASMODICS cannot be

>tonics. HYPOTENSIVES CANNOT, IN ANY LOGIC, BE TONICS! They do not increase

>the tone of the organ at all. Such usage is oxymoronic.



To implicate that an herb can only have one action is erroneous, IMO.  To

expand upon my earlier point, such tonic herbs can include those that are

diuretic, and diuretic herbs can be anti-inflammatory, anti-lithic,

astringent, demulcent....any number of actions other than the primary action

that increases kidney blood flow and reduce water reabsorption in the

nephrons of the kidney.  Some of the specific bitter tonic herbs for the

urinary system include Buchu (Agathosma betulina) which has diuretic,

antiseptic, anti-lithic, diaphoretic, as well as tonic actions, Bearberry

(Arctostaphylos uva-ursi) which has diuretic, astringent, demulcent,

anti-catarrhal, anti-lithic, anti-microbia, as well as tonic actions,  and

Corn Silk (Zea mays) which has diuetic, demulcent, anti-lithic as well as

tonic actions.



On the basis of your argument there

>are next to NO herbs which AREN'T tonics! Doesn't that seem a bit absurd to

>you?



I did not say that all herbs are tonic herbs.



>Look at the energetics: Most true tonics are BITTER and ASTRINGENT.



Raspberry (Rubus idaeus) is a tonic for the female reproductive system, it

is dry and generally cooling, but not necessarily considered to be a bitter

herb. As a tonic, it has a long tradition of use to strengthen and tone the

tissue of the womb during pregnancy, assisting contractions and checking any

hemorrhage during labour.  To further substantiate my point that tonics can

have other specific actions and uses, Raspberry is used widely as an

astringent herb in cases of diarrhea, leucorrhea and other loose conditions.

It is valuable in easing mouth problems such as mouth ulcers, bleeding gums

and inflammations.  Also used as a gargle for sore throats.



>There is simply no such vague concept as 'tonic' in Chinese healing.

>Astringent, 'se,' is as close as you can come, though in some usages

>'jian-ing' will indeed tone the Stomach and Bowels.



I believe we often talk apples to oranges, Paul.  You have your methodology.

I have mine.  I do not pretend to know much about Chinese healing as you

sometimes confusingly and loudly  present it.  I am a student of modern

herbology as evolved from the western world, and my references to body

systems and their functions follow those of modern science.  I find this far

more comprehensible at this time.  I am looking for a dialog here that

promotes my further understanding of herbs and their many uses, including

those across cultural lines, and I do appreciate the information you post,

but not your uncivil, abrasive behaviour.  You demean yourself, not me and

the others you attack.



Marcia Elston     I     Samara Botane     |     Seattle, WA

Manufacturers of Aromatherapy and Herbal products

                                  Herbal Indulgence

                 http://www.wingedseed.com/samara/



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 28 Sep 1996 00:04:01 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: 'Tonics,' was Re: kidney infection

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960928030554.00ad88dc@mail.halcyon.com>



>IMO, this is not incorrect.  Tonics are herbs that strengthen and enliven

>either a specific organ or system, or the whole body.  The concept of system

>tonics highlights the possibility of nourishing and toning the whole of a

>body system.  This aids the structural form of the tissue and organs as well

>as their functional activity without eliciting a specific psysiological or

>biochemical response.



Well, pardon me, but many of the herbs being called tonics in your broad

generality CERTAINLY elicit specific physiological biochemical response.

Aloe vera, the example I chose since it is at the start of the alphabet, is

a CHEMICAL laxative. If you are implying the category 'adaptogen,' there is

NO way that aloe is an adaptogen.



>A characteristic of tonic herbs is that they are all

>gentle remedies that have a mild yet profound effect upon the body.



Aloe vera is not particularly mild. It is contraindicated for pregnant

women, and can be emetic, not just laxative, if consumed in powdered form

or in sufficient quantity of gel.



And if these herbs are so mild, why can't they be used by lay persons

during acute conditions? That is a contradictory statement on its face.



>>In eightenth/nineteenth century herbalism, 'tonification' was PRIMARILY the

>>use of herbs to tone the bowel MUSCLE after purgation, or to tone heart

>>MUSCLE. I dare you to find a reference to 'toning' the kidneys, for

>>instance. There isn't any muscle in the kidney to speak of, and the concept

>>NEVER was applied to that organ, during the, shall we say, theoretical era

>>of European herbal healing.

>

>The kidney is part of the urinary system, along with the ureter, bladder and

>urethra.



No, that little anatomy lesson wasn't the point I was making: "I dare you

to find a reference to 'toning' the kidneys." You have made a historical

claim...back it up.



>This system CAN be nourished by tonic herbs that have specific

>actions to improve overall functioning of the system. To simplify my

>earlier point, such herbs include those that are diuretic, and diuretic

>herbs can be anti-inflammatory, anti-lithic, astringent, demulcent....any

>number of actions.



So any herb that heals is a 'tonic'? What is the point of that? Any herb

that improves the health of a bodily system is a tonic? Disregarding the

fact that you have apparently ENTIRELY ignored the fact that this

definition is NOT traditional, this is an UTTERLY vague idea all by itself.



Returning to the Chinese system: in Yang depletion cinnamon bark improves

the health of the Kidneys. But in Yin depletion, it is VERY destructive! So

your description FAILS! It only refers to an IDEA, not to reality.



>>This usage, in other words, referred to an herbal product that restored

>>MUSCLE tone to a flaccid or weakened organ, or by extension to a flaccid

>>body. SEDATIVES cannot be TONICS, in other words. ANTI-SPASMODICS cannot be

>>tonics. HYPOTENSIVES CANNOT, IN ANY LOGIC, BE TONICS! They do not increase

>>the tone of the organ at all. Such usage is oxymoronic.

>

>To implicate that an herb can only have one action is erroneous, IMO.



You mean to 'imply.' An herb that is considered a hypotensive cannot also

cause hypertension. Isn't that obvious? You cannot reduce blood pressure by

*increasing* muscle tone. To tonify with a sedative is a contradiction in

terms, an oxymoron as I previously pointed out. This is not about multiple

actions---this is about CONTRADICTORY actions.



>To

>expand upon my earlier point, such tonic herbs can include those that are

>diuretic, and diuretic herbs can be anti-inflammatory, anti-lithic,

>astringent, demulcent....any number of actions other than the primary action

>that increases kidney blood flow and reduce water reabsorption in the

>nephrons of the kidney.  Some of the specific bitter tonic herbs for the

>urinary system include Buchu (Agathosma betulina) which has diuretic,

>antiseptic, anti-lithic, diaphoretic, as well as tonic actions,



Buchu is a 'tonic'? Buchu is a potent herb, not a mild herb as you above

suggest.



>Bearberry

>(Arctostaphylos uva-ursi) which has diuretic, astringent, demulcent,

>anti-catarrhal, anti-lithic, anti-microbia, as well as tonic actions,  and

>Corn Silk (Zea mays) which has diuetic, demulcent, anti-lithic as well as

>tonic actions.



So you wouldn't hesitate to give either cornsilk or uva ursi to ANY person

with a 'kidney' problem, because these are mild herbs and can only do good,

right? Good luck.



You have lost the historical meaning of 'tonic,' and are making a claim for

herbs that simply cannot be maintained in the face of the evidence. Take

patient X, who has a kidney problem. Buchu is a 'tonic,' so apply buchu.

Why is this going to work? IT IS PROBABLY NOT. There is no diagnosis, and

there is no parameterization, and there is no conception of the herbal

action being sought. This is an utterly imprecise approach. No wonder the

recommendations I see from this school of thought are vague affairs

involving the recommendation of utterly contradictory herbs for vaguely

conceived complaints.



>On the basis of your argument there

>>are next to NO herbs which AREN'T tonics! Doesn't that seem a bit absurd to

>>you?

>

>I did not say that all herbs are tonic herbs.



Name one that is not. You have implied that any mild herb is a tonic, and

you have stated that just about EVERY herbal category contains 'tonics.'

With such a broad claim, the burden of CLINICAL proof is on you. You cannot

rely on tradition for its observations, which were NOT made in the context

you have chosen.



>>Look at the energetics: Most true tonics are BITTER and ASTRINGENT.

>

>Raspberry (Rubus idaeus) is a tonic for the female reproductive system, it

>is dry and generally cooling, but not necessarily considered to be a bitter

>herb. As a tonic, it has a long tradition of use to strengthen and tone the

>tissue of the womb during pregnancy, assisting contractions and checking any

>hemorrhage during labour.



Hold on a second! Raspberry is a true tonic---it tones MUSCLES like the

uterus. It is astringent, and mildly bitter, but also sweet so the bitter

is less noticeable. This is hardly a good example of your non-muscle toning

'tonics.' Try again.



>To further substantiate my point that tonics can

>have other specific actions and uses, Raspberry is used widely as an

>astringent herb in cases of diarrhea, leucorrhea and other loose conditions.



"Loose conditions." You're right on target. It is a TONIC in the

traditional meaning---it tones what is loose.



>It is valuable in easing mouth problems such as mouth ulcers, bleeding gums

>and inflammations.  Also used as a gargle for sore throats.



BECAUSE it is astringent. These are tonic effects on TISSUES. This is still

the traditional meaning of tonic. You're going to have to try a lot harder,

or just pout and ignore me while implying that I am uniquely evil or

something.



>>There is simply no such vague concept as 'tonic' in Chinese healing.

>>Astringent, 'se,' is as close as you can come, though in some usages

>>'jian-ing' will indeed tone the Stomach and Bowels.

>

>I believe we often talk apples to oranges, Paul.  You have your methodology.

>I have mine.  I do not pretend to know much about Chinese healing as you

>sometimes confusingly and loudly  present it.



Confusingly? This approach you are touting is as confusing an approach as

can be imagined. You confuse a proper delineation of the complexities of

Chinese healing for confusing presentation. The issues are VASTLY more

complex than you give them credit in your rather vague view of healing.



>I am a student of modern

>herbology as evolved from the western world, and my references to body

>systems and their functions follow those of modern science.



Well, that is another misfortune. This is one good example of why Chinese

healing is eating European herbalism's lunch...it has lost its root, and is

wandering in a pseudo-scientific fog, trying to bridge biomedical

reductions with vague physiological assumptions that deviate from the

humoral CONTEXT under which those ideas originated--- forgetting or never

knowing the historical framework in which European (and Native American)

herb action observations were made in the first place.



So you have this sort of 'the kidney is part of the urinary system' sort of

biomedical gloss, and then you have Grieve and a bunch of old herbals that

contain a range of biomedical misconceptions, rumors about plant action,

mixed in with folk observations. How can you get ANY WHERE with such a

wobbly wheel? I would not subject my clients to such guesswork.



You may like to pull Ayurvedic concepts into your melange, but you will not

pull Chinese concepts into it while I'm on the scene. Herein is the

battleground where I HEARTILY dispute Michael Tierra et al.'s assumptions

about the 'universality' of their pseudo-Sino gloss of Chinese healing.

Calling Chinese herbs 'tonic' only obscures the European crisis in

terminology yet further, salt in the wound of that system of herbal healing.



The idea of NOT taking supplementing herbs during Wind attacks has specific

reasons in Chinese healing (it should---it is a Chinese concept), and it is

meaningless outside that system's explanations. You tell me why,

biochemically, biomedically, *why* 'tonic' herbs shouldn't be used during

an infection. YOU CANNOT. And the reason is that your approach, as

demonstrated here, is the saddle without the horse.



Why can't red raspberry tea be consumed during a cold? IT WILL HELP DRY THE

NOSE, and will probably make the person feel quite a bit better. If it is a

'tonic,' then a person should, by your warning, consult a professional

before they brew up a cup of that most innocuous of herbs. Nonsense...the

concept is TOO vague to be consistent. And it can be argued that concepts

that are inconsistent AREN'T concepts at all.



>I find this far

>more comprehensible at this time.  I am looking for a dialog here that

>promotes my further understanding of herbs and their many uses, including

>those across cultural lines, and I do appreciate the information you post,

>but not your uncivil, abrasive behaviour.  You demean yourself, not me and

>the others you attack.



You simply refuse to supply the historical backup for your misconceived

ideas, and when contradicted simply retreat into whining about politeness.

You manage to insulate yourself in your ignorance by doing so. It is

nothing to be proud of.



>Marcia Elston



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 28 Sep 1996 02:12:32 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: 'Tonics,' was Re: kidney infection

In-Reply-To:  <v03007800ae72726e527a@[206.138.118.113]>



On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:







>

> You may like to pull Ayurvedic concepts into your melange, but you will not

> pull Chinese concepts into it while I'm on the scene. Herein is the

> battleground

  ^^^^^^^^^^^^



Are you ever going to even ENTERTAIN the notion that this list is not a

battle in any way, shape, or form?  Apparently you are not.  You hammer

away at every opposing (not even opposing, but *differing*) view point of

your own until that person either cries "Uncle" or just shuts up because

they are sick of listening to you.   At which point, I can only assume you

make a little notch on the side of your computer terminal and bellow out

'Victory!'





>

> >I find this far

> >more comprehensible at this time.  I am looking for a dialog here that

> >promotes my further understanding of herbs and their many uses, including

> >those across cultural lines, and I do appreciate the information you post,

> >but not your uncivil, abrasive behaviour.  You demean yourself, not me and

> >the others you attack.

>

> You simply refuse to supply the historical backup for your misconceived

> ideas, and when contradicted simply retreat into whining about politeness.

> You manage to insulate yourself in your ignorance by doing so. It is

> nothing to be proud of.



Oh get off your high horse, for christ's sake.  Marcia has done nothing

but attempt to explain her position as she  understands it and you have

done nothing but take potshots at her and challenge her every word.

Believe it or not, the term 'ignorant' is not defined as 'those who

disagree with Paul'  I looked it up.



Why is her mentioning that you are uncivil and abrasive considered

'whining'.  It was 2 sentences at the very end of a lengthy posting.  You

are so hell-bent on 'correcting' every minute detail of everyone's remarks

under the auspice of doing it for the greater good of the list yet you

never LEARN anything from the list.  How many people are going to have to

tell you how unbearably obnoxious you are before you finally realize that

not EVERYONE can be wrong.  You rarely come across as HUMAN much less a

rational human, and that ain't much to be proud of either.  Healer heal

thyself.



 > > >Marcia Elston >

> Paul

>



-C



ps.  Yeah, I lied about that other posting being my last one.  So sue me.





___                                                ___

|_|___                              _______________|_|

|_||_|       The Elements           |_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_|______________________________|_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_|Ah, love. The walks over soft grass, the smiles |_|

|_|over candlelight, the arguments over just about |_|

|_|everything else.  |_||_||_| -Max Headroom |_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_|

      __________________________________________

      |_|cbendix@nunic.nu.edu |_||_||_||_||_||_|

      |_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 29 Sep 1996 13:16:13 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Vicki <tori@BROOKINGS.NET>

Subject:      slim tea



Hi!

I ran across a product at the health food store called SLIM TEA....it says

it's 100% Oolong Tea and improves digestion and metabolism.



I looked up Oolong in my herb book and couldn't even find it...



Have any of you heard of this? Is it safe? Does it work?



Thanks,

Vicki



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 29 Sep 1996 11:16:07 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: Una de Gato



> Care to disclaim a commercial interest?

>

> Paul



Let me ask:  What is commercial interest?   Is commercial interest the

simple fact that a product is made by someone and is being hyped for a

particular ailment? Does that constitute that it is junk?  Or simply because

this or that herb or term is not handed down through time and antiquity and

learned from a righteous few then it is to be diregarded?



Can I say that I would like a list of rules for this list.  It seems that

many people are not getting alot of things right here.  Many people

providing what others seem to feel as inadequate or false information, and

yet others seem to always post the god given truth.  Seem seem seem.  Things

arent really what they seem.



Is one's knowledge of herbs a total pile of crap simply because they use a

commercial herb or incorrect terminology?



How many of the "lurkers" out there are afraid to post for fear of being

torn apart by the inquestion for herecy and naivity?(or misspelling



Ron



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 29 Sep 1996 00:17:43 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Ron Robertson <abc@TELEVAR.COM>

Subject:      Re: Chinese Herbs



>From the layperson: I have recently learned that many allergies are dueto

the body functioning poorly which is due to lifestyle.   I, as many people

have, came to the conclusion that allergies are a malice set upon us by the

mysterious and and often inconvenient bit*h mother nature.  But actually I

have learned recently that allergies, some mild and some severe, could be

co-factored out to many unhealthy habits in my daily life.  Unhealthy habits

that may be every day events for me and the people around me.  Such as

drinking, not sleeping sufficently, not excersizing regularly, not eating

highly nutritious foods, mispreparing foods and the misuse of over the

counter medications (quick fix medicines).   Many other influencing

cofactors exist but I took these few to heart and am seeking ways to

overcome years of bodily abuse.



Herbs, for me, are stepping stones toward a more nutritious and healthier

lifestyle.  While I am new and not so wise as to what herbs to use, when,

and how I am learning. I've learned certain herbs, prepared in varying

degrees of potency, in my daily diet are very helpful in mood maintenance,

good digestive processes, better sleeping and dreaming, and the energy to

make it through what used to be grueling days.



Remember that no matter what you are told here you should always push your

knowledge base and learn.



My newest project is growing many herbs in pots and containers around my

house to use fresh in my foods.  The project is in the very begining but Ii

am taking it as my self=induced, hectic life will allow.*



A great herb ( I fear being skewered for the MISUSE of terminology here but

I am sure Paul will delight in correcting me) to start with is Garlic.

While the stinky rose is unpopulr around people who bask in scents such as

Chanel #5 or Polo for Men (personal assumption), I find that my other garlic

eating friends find the same healthy pleasure I do in eating raw and cooked

garlic.  If garlic isn't a part of your diet you might consider giving it a

two or three week run.  If you fear the foul breath remember that foods such

as parsley help to minimize the harsh odor not that I notice that smell

myself).  I think. ( remember I am new too)



Sorry to go on so long, but at least you didnt have to scroll down through

dialog of previously read material.



Big Smiles



*To Note; Today I borrowed from a friend a month by month guide to growing,

using and enjoying herbs called "The pleasure of herbs" by Phyllis Shaudys

and as I'm sure she has her faults it is free knowledge and I would love to

share it with anyone interested for November. I will be trying some of the

projects and advice.



Ron



abc@televar.com



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 28 Sep 1996 10:30:54 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Vicki <tori@BROOKINGS.NET>

Subject:      newbie question



Hi!

I'm new to this list and really enjoying reading it. I have lots of

questions however, but I'll just ask one....:) maybe two....



I'm 44, and I've never had to worry about fat or weight my entire life. Now,

in the last year, I've gone up two sizes, all due to my lower

abs...apparently middle age is setting in and I'm retaining fat and my

metabolism is slowing down. :(   Is there an herb designed to increase one's

metabolic rate? If so, what is it and how much do you take.



I've visited our small local health food store, they have many herbs, I did

purchase a nice book explaining all of them. They also have what's called

combinations....let's say, for female problems etc. you take one of these

combination capsules....or three a day, or whatever. These capsules contain

about 8 different herbs. Do these work?



Also, I did buy some bottles of Dong Quai Root, Ginkgo Biloba, and Evening

Primrose oil...this was advised by a friend of mine who takes these. But I'm

a bit confused as to how many you're supposed to take daily...the directions

are kinda iffy...if you take all that they suggest, you'd be buying these

herbs about once a week. Is that normal?  The brand of these is Nature's

Resource...but the others at the health food store are Nature's Sunshine I

believe.



Am I on the right track here?



Oh, I attend a stretch exercise class 3 mornings a week, and a low impact

aerobics class two eveings a week....It's my lower abs that are the BIG

problem here...I'm not overweight..I'm 5'5" and weigh 117...but this is like

10 pounds more than I'm used to...and I've increased clothing sizes due to

the abs...:(



Any input or advice would be greatly appreciated...if my questions sound

stupid, I'm sorry, I'm really very new to all of this but find it very

fascinating...



Also, are the teas good for you also?



OOOPS..more than one or two questions....



Thanks,

Vicki



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:30:39 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Lisa Contreras <LMCONT00@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject:      Help for shingles



Hi:



  Hope someone out there is logged on on this beautiful Sunday afternoon

 and can give me some advice on what to do for a bad case of shingles (herpes

 zoster).  My brother-in-law's girlfriend wqent to the hospital with it on

 Friday night and all they did was give her some painkillers aand a couple of

 injections of I don't know what.  Is doing no good and she's frantic.  I

 _know_ that there are herbs that can help but none of my books even lists

  anything for shingles.  Would the treatment be the same as for any other

 "variety" of herpes?  Paul, Howie - are you out there?  Anyone?



  TIA - Lisa in Lexington



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 28 Sep 1996 10:13:04 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Grape Seed Oil

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.16.19960927172111.22976d2a@mail.teleport.com>



>Living in Eugene, Oregon  the center of political correctness, I see alot of

>hemp seed oil. This product appears to have a similar quality as grape seed

>.... soaks in quick, leaves little residue ... bad for a massage.



That's funny, since don't they make a claim about the utility of hemp oil

as a machine lubricant?



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 28 Sep 1996 10:16:15 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Allergies, was Re: Chinese Herbs

In-Reply-To:  <19960927.150237.6623.1.lindashipley@juno.com>



>Tell me - what herbs and for what?  I just got an allergy shot and got

>one shot in the spring.  I would like to find a way around that for not a

>whole lot of money?  My allergies seem to be grass, mold, ragweed-the

>usual.  Thanks.



Since the subject was Chinese herbs in your post, I'll just note that

Chinese healing considers the major cause of allergies to be Digestive

Dampness, so the proper 'herb' is NO FRUIT OR FRUIT JUICE, or coffee.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 28 Sep 1996 10:10:31 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Una de Gato

In-Reply-To:  <960927084732_294709475@emout08.mail.aol.com>



>Geez, Paul, you got me so upset, I couldn't even spell WOULD!! Well, NOW,

>back to my lurking in the wings!

>

>Pat



It is no big deal for anyone who *invites people to email them "for more

information" about an herb* that is one of the major entrepreneurial herbs

to disclaim their commercial interest, if any, so that we may add that data

to our judgement of the information given in their postings on the subject.



If, instead of that simple appended statement, you need to affect a major

injury, all I can say is 'boo!'



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sat, 28 Sep 1996 10:19:45 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Persistant cough

In-Reply-To:  <HERB%96092800412793@VM.EGE.EDU.TR>



>                Paul,

>                      I don't want to sound like an alarmist but the

>two encounters I had with persistant coughs had been the sign of

>growing tumors.  My aunt had bad, deep cough for months 2 years ago

>and she passed away last year of lung tumor and metastasized brain

>tumor.  My wife had a bad cough for 3 months 7 years ago( she tried

>to treat it with cough syrups)  and a year later she had to have

>thymectomy (for an orange size thymus) in conjunction with myasthenia

>gravis.  The moral is, don't neglect coughs..........get a thorough

>check-up.

>LES



Well, neither of these poor unfortunates are children, Les. The incidence

of tumor in children with persistent UNTREATED cough is about nil.



And your aunt smoked during her life, right? Persistent cough in even an

EX-smoker is cause for alarm, I agree. My father died from just such a

scenario.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 29 Sep 1996 19:19:03 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: slim tea

In-Reply-To:  <199609291802.NAA13221@serv.brookings.net>



>Hi!

>I ran across a product at the health food store called SLIM TEA....it says

>it's 100% Oolong Tea and improves digestion and metabolism.

>

>I looked up Oolong in my herb book and couldn't even find it...

>

>Have any of you heard of this? Is it safe? Does it work?

>

>Thanks,

>Vicki



It is, in other words, black, or fermented, tea. Contains caffeine. Will

NOT cause you to lost weight in a permanent way.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 29 Sep 1996 19:54:43 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Una de Gato

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960929181607.0066c3f8@pop.televar.com>



>> Care to disclaim a commercial interest?

>>

>> Paul

>

>Let me ask:  What is commercial interest?



It is not a mystical concept. If someone SELLS the product or herb that

they are posting about or inviting people to contact them privately about,

then they need to disclaim this involvement, and in most cases, they

shouldn't be offering it for sale OR inviting people to contact them by

email.



For instance: I SELL Chinese herbal formulas to my clients. I DO NOT post

ads, and I do not say in my posts: 'Email me for more information,' so I do

not need to disclaim such an involvement. I am not seeking business by

posting here...my intentions are intellectual.



What I do is give the name of the formula, the name of a related formula if

it is available in Chinatown, and leave people free to get that formula

from whomever in their area supplies such things, usually acupuncturists.

Many of those formulas are available right off the Web (though the quality

may not be what I would prefer for my clients).



>Is commercial interest the

>simple fact that a product is made by someone and is being hyped for a

>particular ailment?



No. That is not commercial involvement, clearly.



>Does that constitute that it is junk?



If it is being 'hyped' for a particular ailment, it may very well be

'junk.' There are few panaceas in the universe, few illnesses that exist

simply because of a 'dandelion root' deficiency.



>Or simply because

>this or that herb or term is not handed down through time and antiquity and

>learned from a righteous few then it is to be disregarded?



The test of time is one, the major, standard of utility in herbalism. That

is not a fact of my manufacture.



>Can I say that I would like a list of rules for this list.  It seems that

>many people are not getting alot of things right here.  Many people

>providing what others seem to feel as inadequate or false information, and

>yet others seem to always post the god given truth.  Seem seem seem.  Things

>arent really what they seem.



That is simply the nature of intellectual discourse. If you can't handle

the idea of right and wrong, then you should NOT engage in healing methods

that have an intellectual basis. Swing a pendulum, or something.



>Is one's knowledge of herbs a total pile of crap simply because they use a

>commercial herb or incorrect terminology?

>

>How many of the "lurkers" out there are afraid to post for fear of being

>torn apart by the inquestion for herecy and naivity?(or misspelling

>

>Ron



This list is not alt.folklore.herbs. It is not a list for people to post

their misconceptions unchallenged. It is a list that aspires to a higher

level of discourse, a higher standard of herbalism, a more precise standard

of herbal knowledge. These are not negative things, but they are certainly

experienced as negative by those who find themselves on the wrong end of

that equation.



The FAQ for this list is posted frequently. It lists OTHER lists that you

are welcome to join where the dialogue is different, and where 'lurkers'

need not fear anything at all for posting their own cherished illusions

about herbs. Certainly people with products to sell can go violate the

noncommercial Usenet herb group al they want...they do anyhow. But that

will NOT happen here.



[That's a period on the end of that sentence].



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 29 Sep 1996 20:13:57 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Doug Grinder <dgrin@AGT.NET>

Subject:      "drugstore" herbs



I live in Canada and I've noticed that the drugstores are carrying more

and more herbs.Most have a full line, or at least the more popular ones

at a third of the price of the health food stores. Are they just as good?

Christine



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 29 Sep 1996 23:26:08 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         J L Hoover <72724.60@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject:      Re: slim tea



>Hi!

>I ran across a product at the health food store called SLIM TEA....it says

>it's 100% Oolong Tea and improves digestion and metabolism.

>

>I looked up Oolong in my herb book and couldn't even find it...

>

>Have any of you heard of this? Is it safe? Does it work?

>

>Thanks,

>Vicki



Cool! A question I can answer!



Oolong tea is simply plain ol' tea (camellia sinensis).



When the leaves are picked and dried immediately, that's green tea.

Black teas are partly dried, then fermented.

Oolong is partially fired then steamed.



The only other thing I remember right off hand is that

"orange pekoe" means the tender leaves at the top of the

plant.



Does it work? As in "SLIM"? Very doubtful. Tea is after all

the national drink of the South (iced dontchaknow) and I don't

think Southerners are particularly skinny.



In any case tea contains more caffine than coffee, if I'm

not mistaken, and Coffee is a Bad Thing.



Jayel Hoover

72724.60@compuserve.com

-----------------------------------------------------------

+--+--+        If you overesteem great men,

|  |  |        people become powerless.

+--+  |            -Lao tzu

|  |  |

+--+--+

   |  |

   |  |



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 29 Sep 1996 20:27:59 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Una de Gato

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960929181607.0066c3f8@pop.televar.com>



On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, Ron Robertson wrote:



> > Care to disclaim a commercial interest?

> >

> > Paul

>

> Let me ask:  What is commercial interest?   Is commercial interest the

> simple fact that a product is made by someone and is being hyped for a

> particular ailment? Does that constitute that it is junk?  Or simply because

> this or that herb or term is not handed down through time and antiquity and

> learned from a righteous few then it is to be diregarded?



It is unfortunate that the presence of a whole lot of shyster salespeople

has caused such mistrust of ALL salespeople.  I think it is a MAJOR error,

though, to simply disregard something since it is being presented in

exchange for cash.  Check stuff out, get others opinions that have used

it, and be INFORMED before you shell out the cash (if cash is a problem)

for it.  I wouldn't EVER accept or reject a notion, product, offer based

on only ONE person's opinion.



As this relates to this list, I'd say that the 'old' ways aren't

necessarily the best ways of doing things.  They aren't necessarily NOT

the best ways of doing things, but ignoring new ideas and new claims

without further investigations is foolish.  Everything is in constant

flux, including the knowledge base of the intelligentsia and the

scientists.



>

> Can I say that I would like a list of rules for this list.  It seems that

> many people are not getting alot of things right here.  Many people

> providing what others seem to feel as inadequate or false information, and

> yet others seem to always post the god given truth.  Seem seem seem.  Things

> arent really what they seem.



This is where your own powers of critical thinking and logic step in.  If

someone say ssomething like, "I don't recommend you eat

Aspartame-sweetened Yogurt (FOR INSTANCE) since I have seen a few people

in my practice suffer negative consequences as a result."  Then what

conclusion do you draw from this.  Yo udon't really draw ANYTHING from it

because there is no sort of information to put it into perspective.  You

don't know, based on this information, how many zillions of people do eat

Aspartame-sweetened Yogurt (FOR INSTANCE) with no negative consequences

whatsoever.  You either stop eating whatever you are being cautioned

against (Silly, IMHO, especially if it is something you realle like) or

you investigate further..maybe seek out statistics on the amount of yougrt

eaten each year vs the amount of people who get sick as a result of yogurt

each year.  I don't know if these statistics are even available but I'm

just saying to THINK about what you are being told to find out if it even

makes SENSE.  SImply because someone has a powerful command of the english

language and employs a very convincing (on the surface) rhetorical style

doesn't make them "right."



>

> Is one's knowledge of herbs a total pile of crap simply because they use a

> commercial herb or incorrect terminology?



Of course not.  Those who would seek to convince you that it is based on

that criteria are complete and utter idiots.



>

> How many of the "lurkers" out there are afraid to post for fear of being

> torn apart by the inquestion for herecy and naivity?(or misspelling

>



probably quite a few.  Some might say that's sad, but I don't think it's a

very toothy argument for not posting if you have a point to make or

something to say.  Those that like to argue for the sheer pleasure of

reading their own words on their computer screen are pretty easy to spot

and disregard.



> Ron

>







-C



___                                                ___

|_|___                              _______________|_|

|_||_|       The Elements           |_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_|______________________________|_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_|Ah, love. The walks over soft grass, the smiles |_|

|_|over candlelight, the arguments over just about |_|

|_|everything else.  |_||_||_| -Max Headroom |_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_|

      __________________________________________

      |_|cbendix@nunic.nu.edu |_||_||_||_||_||_|

      |_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 29 Sep 1996 21:54:48 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: newbie question

In-Reply-To:  <199609281518.KAA03359@serv.brookings.net>



On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Vicki wrote:



> Hi!

> I'm new to this list and really enjoying reading it. I have lots of

> questions however, but I'll just ask one....:) maybe two....

>

> I'm 44, and I've never had to worry about fat or weight my entire life. Now,

> in the last year, I've gone up two sizes, all due to my lower

> abs...apparently middle age is setting in and I'm retaining fat and my

> metabolism is slowing down. :(   Is there an herb designed to increase one's

> metabolic rate? If so, what is it and how much do you take.



Although I am neither 44 years old nor a woman I do work at the Internal

Revenue Service in Fresno.  It is a federal government office installation

and believe me, there are quite a few overweight, and more importantly

DIETING folks out there.  So I am speaking from quite a bit of

second-hand, though personally witnessed experience.



It is my opinion (and here I go again, expressing my anti-hearbal healing

thoughts) that seeking out an herbal solution to your problem will prove

to be unfruitful if you are seeking an herb that will allow you to eat and

exercise at your current level and lose the excess weight you have

accumulated and keep it off.  Sadly the only way to battle bulge is to

'eat less and exercise more'.  I have read all the labels of the

herbal diet aids

that folks take to work which say they 'increase metabolism' and various

other things, and all they really are is various stimulants, sometimes in

very LARGE doses, with some Chromium Picolinate thrown in for good

measure.  The claims that Chromium Picolinate increases fat-burning remain

completely unproven scientifically.  One of the studies I read indicated

that there was no difference in fat composition in a group of football

players to whom half were given Chromium and the others a placebo.  The

other study I read, involving both sexes indicated that the men stayed the

same and that the women given Chromium actually INCREASED their bodyfat.



As for eating less, I have taken Garcinia Cambogia-Hydroxycitrate (aka

CitriMax) and did find that it decreased my appetite.  Again, this didn't

really do anything to my 'metabolism', but eating less is certainly

beneficial in losing weight.  I didn't take it very long (a few weeks) so

it may have eventually stopped working.  WHo knows.



It sounds like your best remedy will be to just cut a few calories out of

your diet.  Eating 500 calories less per day (not a great deal when you

think about it) will cause you to lose a pound a week.  Of course you'll

need to maintain your exercise routine so that your current metabolism

doesn't decrease as well.  Sadly as we get older, our metabolism wanes as

well.





>

>

> Also, I did buy some bottles of Dong Quai Root, Ginkgo Biloba, and Evening

> Primrose oil...this was advised by a friend of mine who takes these. But I'm

> a bit confused as to how many you're supposed to take daily...the directions

> are kinda iffy...if you take all that they suggest, you'd be buying these

> herbs about once a week. Is that normal?



Yeeesh, I hope you didn't buy all those with your weight-loss goals in

mind.  If I were you, I wouldn't put any amount of any of those things

into your mouth until you understand what exactly they will supposedly do

for you, and the correct dosages.  I'm sort of surprised the person at the

Health food store didn't take the time to explain the whole what/why/how

much thing to you.



> Am I on the right track here?

>

> Oh, I attend a stretch exercise class 3 mornings a week, and a low impact

> aerobics class two eveings a week....It's my lower abs that are the BIG

> problem here...I'm not overweight..I'm 5'5" and weigh 117...but this is like

> 10 pounds more than I'm used to...and I've increased clothing sizes due to

> the abs...:(



It doesn't sound like your 'abs' are the problem here.  That refers to the

muscles themselves and it sounds like they are getting the exercise they

need to stay toned.  Your lower abdomen is just where the fat has decided

to deposit itself.  Incorporating one more day of aerobics a week might be

all that is needed to burn the extra fat (maybe 2).



Probably no help, but good luck anyhow!









-C

___                                                ___

|_|___                              _______________|_|

|_||_|       The Elements           |_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_|______________________________|_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_|Ah, love. The walks over soft grass, the smiles |_|

|_|over candlelight, the arguments over just about |_|

|_|everything else.  |_||_||_| -Max Headroom |_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|

|_||_||_||_||_||_|

      __________________________________________

      |_|cbendix@nunic.nu.edu |_||_||_||_||_||_|

      |_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_||_|



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 01:09:35 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         "Patricia C. McMullen" <Redgato@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Una de Gato



In a message dated 96-09-29 23:40:03 EDT, you write:



<< If, instead of that simple appended statement, you need to affect a major

 injury, all I can say is 'boo!'



 Paul >>



It is appalling to me that many people are so cynical that they assume that

no one will give aid or information to others without exacting a fee or

having some ulterior motive.  I am still naive enough to feel injury when

someone insinuates that I have a reason other than intellectual (and possibly

humanitarian) in posting requested information to this list.  I, for one,

will try to help if someone asks a question concerning a topic on which I

have knowledge-(and I am aware when I am not qualified to answer a question,

too.). I didn't have any occult (as in 'that which is not obvious'-  like in

"occult blood" determination) reason for stating that I could be contacted by

email for more information.  I thought that if I hadn't explained something I

stated, I could be contacted for clarification or more information.  I DO

have an extensive library (personal) that I can utilize for a reference

source.



I have a poster on the wall in my work room that says:  "Half of being smart

is knowing what you're dumb at!"  It's not good grammar, but it's a good

thing to remember!



And while I'm thinking about it, ya'll (before somebody asks, yes, I'm from

the South-  North Carolina and Florida) know the ole saying about ASSUME?

It makes an   ASS out of U and ME------ASS U ME.  (An ass is a donkey!!!!)

Now will the AOL police or somebody start searching for me for using that

language to you good people?  :)



This list should be a help for those who want it and information for all of

us that read it, not a bloody battle ground strewn with those wounded by

verbal barbs and deliberate sharp-tongued belittling from certain

participants of the list.  I'm off my soapbox for now and back to

lurking!!!!!



Pat







Pat



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 29 Sep 1996 22:15:52 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: slim tea

In-Reply-To:  <960930032608_72724.60_FHP50-1@CompuServe.COM>



>In any case tea contains more caffine than coffee, if I'm

>not mistaken, and Coffee is a Bad Thing.

>

>Jayel Hoover



No, quite a bit less, in general. Maybe half, on average, with black tea

vs. a cup of coffee; more like a fifth with green tea.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 29 Sep 1996 22:21:52 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Una de Gato

In-Reply-To:  <960930010933_533413040@emout06.mail.aol.com>



>It is appalling to me that many people are so cynical that they assume that

>no one will give aid or information to others without exacting a fee or

>having some ulterior motive.  I am still naive enough to feel injury when

>someone insinuates that I have a reason other than intellectual (and possibly

>humanitarian) in posting requested information to this list.



The naivete is really that you don't realise that the Net is chock full of

people trying to make money. Every PUBLIC group is overrun with ads, with

spam, with people who are selling what they are talking about. Many lists

are also afflicted with such greed.



>I, for one,

>will try to help if someone asks a question concerning a topic on which I

>have knowledge-(and I am aware when I am not qualified to answer a question,

>too.). I didn't have any occult (as in 'that which is not obvious'-  like in

>"occult blood" determination) reason for stating that I could be contacted by

>email for more information.  I thought that if I hadn't explained something I

>stated, I could be contacted for clarification or more information.  I DO

>have an extensive library (personal) that I can utilize for a reference

>source.



How much skin off your nose is it to add (I don't sell it) to your post?

Really, the Mother Theresa bit is a bit overblown.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 29 Sep 1996 22:06:43 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Anita Hales <hales1@KTN.NET>

Subject:      Re: Lipid soluble plant antibiotics



At 05:11 PM 9/27/96 -0400, Brian Murphy wrote:

>I am searching  for a list of plant substances that are antibiotics and that

>are lipid solube. The names of the herbs would also be helpful.  The degree

>of lipid solubility is also very important. If there anyone with reliable

>information I would appreciate your assistance. thank you Brian

>

>

I'm very curious.  Why?

***********************************************************

* Wild Strawberries:  "...water distilled from the        *

* berries is good for the passions of the heart caused by *

* perterbation of the spirit."                            *



*    John Parkinson, 1640                                 *

*_________________________________________________________*

*Anita Hales, hales1@alaska.ktn.net                       *

***********************************************************



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 29 Sep 1996 22:06:45 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Anita Hales <hales1@KTN.NET>

Subject:      Re: slim tea



At 01:16 PM 9/29/96 -0500, Vicki wrote:

>Hi!

>I ran across a product at the health food store called SLIM TEA....it says

>it's 100% Oolong Tea and improves digestion and metabolism.

>

>I looked up Oolong in my herb book and couldn't even find it...

>

>Have any of you heard of this? Is it safe? Does it work?

>

>Thanks,

>Vicki

>

>

Green tea steamed.  And no it will not make you slim.

***********************************************************

* Wild Strawberries:  "...water distilled from the        *

* berries is good for the passions of the heart caused by *

* perterbation of the spirit."                            *



*    John Parkinson, 1640                                 *

*_________________________________________________________*

*Anita Hales, hales1@alaska.ktn.net                       *

***********************************************************



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Sun, 29 Sep 1996 22:06:48 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Anita Hales <hales1@KTN.NET>

Subject:      Reply problems



Lately, my replies to the HERB list have been getting returned.  What is

going on?  It's really annoying.  I wanted to respond to some things Paul

said and all my replies got returned.  He said some things I wanted more

info on.  BTW, I appreciate his candor and viewpoints.  It takes someone

like this to move people out of their comfort zone and learn something.

He's got me hitting the books all the time.  Thanks, Paul.  I'm not too

proud to learn something new.

***********************************************************

* Wild Strawberries:  "...water distilled from the        *

* berries is good for the passions of the heart caused by *

* perterbation of the spirit."                            *



*    John Parkinson, 1640                                 *

*_________________________________________________________*

*Anita Hales, hales1@alaska.ktn.net                       *

***********************************************************



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 00:32:48 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: newbie question

In-Reply-To:  <199609281518.KAA03359@serv.brookings.net>



Vicki wrote:



>I'm 44, and I've never had to worry about fat or weight my entire life. Now,

>in the last year, I've gone up two sizes, all due to my lower

>abs...apparently middle age is setting in and I'm retaining fat and my

>metabolism is slowing down.



And your impression of your body temperature in general is...?



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 00:14:05 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Reply problems

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19960930060648.00698804@alaska.ktn.net>



>Lately, my replies to the HERB list have been getting returned.  What is

>going on?  It's really annoying.  I wanted to respond to some things Paul

>said and all my replies got returned.  He said some things I wanted more

>info on.  BTW, I appreciate his candor and viewpoints.  It takes someone

>like this to move people out of their comfort zone and learn something.

>He's got me hitting the books all the time.  Thanks, Paul.  I'm not too

>proud to learn something new.



Nor I. I spend approximately $300 a month on books, most months. AND, I

read them!



A stack of my mail was held this week...if you got a delayed delivery

message, your messages may still come through when the list server catches

up.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 00:30:46 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Help for shingles

In-Reply-To:  <960929.153555.EDT.LMCONT00@ukcc.uky.edu>



>Hi:

>

>  Hope someone out there is logged on on this beautiful Sunday afternoon

> and can give me some advice on what to do for a bad case of shingles (herpes

> zoster).  My brother-in-law's girlfriend wqent to the hospital with it on

> Friday night and all they did was give her some painkillers aand a couple of

> injections of I don't know what.



Could be Acyclovir or cortisone.



>Is doing no good and she's frantic.  I

> _know_ that there are herbs that can help but none of my books even lists

>  anything for shingles.  Would the treatment be the same as for any other

> "variety" of herpes?  Paul, Howie - are you out there?  Anyone?

>

>  TIA - Lisa in Lexington



Shingles are a nasty illness. The two common causations are Fire Blazing in

the Liver Channel and Damp Heat in the Spleen Channel. These two types can

be distinguished by the sort of lesion. Fire lesions will look red and

angry; Damp Heat lesions will look weepy and yellowish. Fire is treated

with Cold herbs, like dandelion root, golden seal, that sort of thing. Damp

Heat is treated with Cool Drying and Draining herbs, like Job's Tears

(Coix), plantago seed, red peony root, aloe vera, etc. In fact, aloe might

be a very good herb both topically and internally for BOTH types.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:45:28 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         lesley bricker <lbricke@BGNET.BGSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Allergies, was Re: Chinese Herbs

In-Reply-To:  <v03007802ae730d9b467b@[207.17.84.165]>



And what if a person does not drink coffee or caffeine beverages, fruit

juice or eat fruit?

Lesley



On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:



> >Tell me - what herbs and for what?  I just got an allergy shot and got

> >one shot in the spring.  I would like to find a way around that for not a

> >whole lot of money?  My allergies seem to be grass, mold, ragweed-the

> >usual.  Thanks.

>

> Since the subject was Chinese herbs in your post, I'll just note that

> Chinese healing considers the major cause of allergies to be Digestive

> Dampness, so the proper 'herb' is NO FRUIT OR FRUIT JUICE, or coffee.

>

> Paul

>



Lesley Bricker

Acquisitions Dept.

Jerome Library

Bowling Green State University

Bowling Green, OH  43403

(419) 372-7920



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 09:02:06 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Vicki <tori@BROOKINGS.NET>

Subject:      Re: newbie question



At 12:32 AM 9/30/96 -0700, you wrote:



>And your impression of your body temperature in general is...?



Sorry, I'm a newbie, with this list and also with herbs....please explain

your question?



All I know is this, as one grows older, their metabilism slows down. They

don't need to eat as much either, I have read.



Someone suggested that I eat less and exercise more. Well, I've been advised

to eat more. I've been told that if you try to decrease calories too much,

your body will hang on to the fat it has. Same is true with water. If you

don't drink enough, your body tends to retain it and can cause bloating etc.

Don't know how true it is, but I've heard it a lot and read this a lot.



Also, about the herbs I was trying. I didn't get those particular ones in a

health food store. Found them at Walmart. They were recommended by a friend.

And no, I wasn't taking them for weight loss etc. I was taking some of them

for female problems etc.



I was under the impression that herbs could not be harmful, this is why I

went ahead with them. Since they're *natural* I didn't consider them

medicine etc.



Like I said, I'm new, please be patient with me, ok? :)



Thanks for all your replies,

Vicki



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 09:02:05 -0500

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Vicki <tori@BROOKINGS.NET>

Subject:      Re: slim tea



At 07:19 PM 9/29/96 -0700, you wrote:



>It is, in other words, black, or fermented, tea. Contains caffeine. Will

>NOT cause you to lost weight in a permanent way.



Hmmmmm...it does contain caffeine, but it says 99.9% caffeine free. It also

says does not contain harsh laxatives....so I guess it means it contains a

laxative of some kind. Must not be very strong, did nothing for me. :)



Anyway, thanks everyone for your replies! :)



Vicki



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:36:57 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Linda K Shipley <lindashipley@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Help for shingles



Paul, are you an expert on herbs, Chinese or well read?  Any way,

interesting. Thanks for replying to my allergies problems.  Just reading

the mail.  Am new to this.   Thanks again.



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:33:42 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Allergies, was Re: Chinese Herbs

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.3.89.9609300811.A1633-0100000@bgnet1.bgsu.edu>



>And what if a person does not drink coffee or caffeine beverages, fruit

>juice or eat fruit?

>Lesley

>

>On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Paul Iannone wrote:

>

>> >Tell me - what herbs and for what?  I just got an allergy shot and got

>> >one shot in the spring.  I would like to find a way around that for not a

>> >whole lot of money?  My allergies seem to be grass, mold, ragweed-the

>> >usual.  Thanks.

>>

>> Since the subject was Chinese herbs in your post, I'll just note that

>> Chinese healing considers the major cause of allergies to be Digestive

>> Dampness, so the proper 'herb' is NO FRUIT OR FRUIT JUICE, or coffee.

>>

>> Paul

>>

>

>Lesley Bricker



Than other causes of Dampness accumulation need to be discovered, OR,

alternatively, sinus allergies can be due to Dryness, Heat, Qi Stagnation,

or Toxin (OTC and prescription drugs). All of these Pathogenic factors can

be sussed out. But dietary Dampness is by far the most common factor.



Paul



Btw, people who don't eat fruit or fruit juice may well have weak Digestion

to begin with (and just don't feel good when they eat those Damp foods).



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:38:07 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: newbie question

In-Reply-To:  <199609301348.IAA24086@serv.brookings.net>



>At 12:32 AM 9/30/96 -0700, you wrote:

>

>>And your impression of your body temperature in general is...?

>

>Sorry, I'm a newbie, with this list and also with herbs....please explain

>your question?



You usually feel cold, you usually feel hot? You wear more or less clothes

than the other people around you? You get stuffy in rooms easily, sleep

with windows open, sweat at night?



>I was under the impression that herbs could not be harmful, this is why I

>went ahead with them. Since they're *natural* I didn't consider them

>medicine etc.



Ah, little lamb, whatever gave you that dangerous idea? Herbs can be

deadly...you cannot simply take things with the expectation that they

*cannot* hurt you.



>Like I said, I'm new, please be patient with me, ok? :)

>

>Thanks for all your replies,

>Vicki



Not my strong suit, but OK.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:35:03 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: slim tea

In-Reply-To:  <199609301348.IAA24084@serv.brookings.net>



>At 07:19 PM 9/29/96 -0700, you wrote:

>

>>It is, in other words, black, or fermented, tea. Contains caffeine. Will

>>NOT cause you to lost weight in a permanent way.

>

>Hmmmmm...it does contain caffeine, but it says 99.9% caffeine free. It also

>says does not contain harsh laxatives....so I guess it means it contains a

>laxative of some kind. Must not be very strong, did nothing for me. :)

>

>Anyway, thanks everyone for your replies! :)

>

>Vicki



The dirty tricks school of labeling. Tea contains theobromine, a caffeine

derivative. It contains very little caffeine per se.



LIARS.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:46:57 +0000

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <melodie@mail.infomed.ca>

From:         Melodie Hutmacher <melodie@MAIL.INFOMED.CA>

Subject:      Re: Excessive mucous



> Dehydration and thick mucus are go hand in hand.  The boy needs

> water and fluids.   Id say the kid would feel a heck of a lot better

> if he at least drank more water (enough so that the mucus thins out)

>  Id stay away from sugar or kool aid.  Try grapfruit juice.  Most gf

> concentrates dont have the add white grape juice ( which is just one

> of sugars alternate names.  Hope the kid does better.

>

> Ron

>

Ron,



Just to inform you, my son gets plenty of liquids, and he drinks mineral

water and pure fruit juices, NOT kool aid!  As for sugar, it has

always been kept to a minimum in my house!  To suggest dehydration

appears as an attack on my skills as a mother...in today's day and

age, there should be absolutely NO reason dehydration except for pure

ignorance.



Melodie



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 09:59:46 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Jerome Osentowski <permacul@ROF.NET>

Subject:      Medicinal Herb Workshop in Nicaragua and Costa Rica



        I am the director of the Central Rocky Mountain Permaculture

Institute in Basalt, Colorado.  In addition to the sustainable agriculture

education we offer here at our home site, we are conducting an herb

workshop that will take place in Nicaragua and Costa Rica this January.

The course is being led by Tomas Enos, a professional ethnobotanist and

medicinal herb practiotioner from Gila, New Mexico.  We will also be taught

by various native people who are experts in the uses and propoagation

techniques of herbs commonly used in Central America. This course is an

excellent opportunity for those wishing to extend their knowledge of herbs,

diagnostic techniques, field methods, and various other herb related skills

and information.  The cost for the Nicaragua portion of the course (17

days) is $1,250.  For Nicaragua and Costa Rica, the cost is $1,350.

        I hope that some of you can join us for what promises to be a

fascinating exploration of the medicinal herbs of Central America!  If you

would like more information and/or are interested in attending the course,

please contact us here at CRMPI and we'll be glad to help you.

CRMPI

P.O. Box 631

Basalt, CO 81621

Tel/Fax:(970)927-4158

email:permacul@rof.net



Thanks for your time and interests!

-Jerome Osentowski



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 04:05:46 EDT

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Kerry Van Rensburg at Zimpharm_Byo <zaphaqha@IBMMAIL.COM>

Subject:      GINGER



     Please could someone advise how to grow ginger.



     Thanks

     Kerry



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 09:48:56 -0800

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         natalie pastor <npastor@MAIL.SDSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: slim tea

In-Reply-To:  <v03007801ae7598e279d9@[204.179.169.123]>



since the subject is caffeine, does anyone know where i might find a list

of all food/plant substances that contain caffeine or  caffeine

derivatives?

thanks,

Natalie





>>At 07:19 PM 9/29/96 -0700, you wrote:

>>

>>>It is, in other words, black, or fermented, tea. Contains caffeine. Will

>>>NOT cause you to lost weight in a permanent way.

>>

>>Hmmmmm...it does contain caffeine, but it says 99.9% caffeine free. It also

>>says does not contain harsh laxatives....so I guess it means it contains a

>>laxative of some kind. Must not be very strong, did nothing for me. :)

>>

>>Anyway, thanks everyone for your replies! :)

>>

>>Vicki

>

>The dirty tricks school of labeling. Tea contains theobromine, a caffeine

>derivative. It contains very little caffeine per se.

>

>LIARS.

>

>Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:03:20 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Crosley Bendix <cbendix@NUNIC.NU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: newbie question

In-Reply-To:  <199609301348.IAA24086@serv.brookings.net>



On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Vicki wrote:



>

> All I know is this, as one grows older, their metabilism slows down. They

> don't need to eat as much either, I have read.



I've read the same thing, in many different places.



>

> Someone suggested that I eat less and exercise more. Well, I've been advised

> to eat more. I've been told that if you try to decrease calories too much,

> your body will hang on to the fat it has. Same is true with water. If you

> don't drink enough, your body tends to retain it and can cause bloating etc.

> Don't know how true it is, but I've heard it a lot and read this a lot.

>



This is true also.  When you start taking in less calories and make no

other changes as far as exercise, activity, etc. then your body will hoard

its fat stores and go into a 'starvation' mode.  Weight will come off at

first and then eventually your body will 'catch on' and stop burning the

fat.  The key here though is in aking no changes as far as exercise.  if

you take in fewer calories but at the same time force (so to speak) your

body to work harder, the 'starvation' mode won't kick in since your body

has a NEED to burn more calories.  One thing seems certain to me.  Since

you are putting on weight, you are consuming more calories than you are

burning.  I guess the next logical question is to ask just how many

calories a day you take in (since you've already outlined your exercise

regimen) at the present time.  If you are already actively 'dieting' then

eating less probably IS a bad idea.  In that case it would just be a need

for more activity.  You may want to add another aerobics class.  Your

exercise schedule is impressive in that is far more than most folks do,

however most 'experts' say that you need at least THREE sessions of

aerobic activity where you maintain your target heart rate for at least 25

minutes each week.  SOme people say to do this FIVE times a week (too much

if you ask me.  Shin splints, joint damage, etc.  Been there, done that.)

A very simple, but through weight training routine might work, too.

Weight s scare off lots of people because they envision themselves

becoming these freakish muscular apes, but you can train in such a way

that your muscles are merely maintained and toned rather than grow.  Lean

muscle burns more calories at rest than untoned muscle and fat.



> Also, about the herbs I was trying. I didn't get those particular ones in a

> health food store. Found them at Walmart. They were recommended by a friend.

> And no, I wasn't taking them for weight loss etc. I was taking some of them

> for female problems etc.



Alright, I was confused.  I thought you were indicating you bought those

in conjunction with your weight concerns.



>

> I was under the impression that herbs could not be harmful, this is why I

> went ahead with them. Since they're *natural* I didn't consider them

> medicine etc.



Scary.  My opinion is that anything you put into your mouth, be it

foodstuff, pill, natural or unnatural, has the potential for harm.  Be

informed.



>

> Like I said, I'm new, please be patient with me, ok? :)

>

> Thanks for all your replies,

> Vicki

>



-C

cbendix@nunic.nu.edu



"Baloney is just salami with an inferiority complex" -Ellen DeGeneres



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:04:04 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         lesley bricker <lbricke@BGNET.BGSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Allergies, was Re: Chinese Herbs

In-Reply-To:  <v03007800ae75982b4ee5@[204.179.169.123]>



Then what would be the remedy, changes to reverse this digestive

dampness/weak digestion?



Lesley



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:54:51 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Help for shingles

In-Reply-To:  <19960930.103011.6639.2.lindashipley@juno.com>



>Paul, are you an expert on herbs, Chinese or well read?



Two out of three? I do read Chinese, but am hardly an expert. Actually, I

consider myself a barely passable Chinese reader, a reasonably competant

herbalist, and a student of the literature. If there is anything I excel

at, it is diagnosis. I also weild a 'mean' elbow (acupressure).



>Any way,

>interesting. Thanks for replying to my allergies problems.  Just reading

>the mail.  Am new to this.   Thanks again.



Sure.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:03:17 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Excessive mucous

In-Reply-To:  <199609301544.IAA23016@mail.infomed.ca>



>> Dehydration and thick mucus are go hand in hand.  The boy needs

>> water and fluids.   Id say the kid would feel a heck of a lot better

>> if he at least drank more water (enough so that the mucus thins out)

>>  Id stay away from sugar or kool aid.  Try grapfruit juice.  Most gf

>> concentrates dont have the add white grape juice ( which is just one

>> of sugars alternate names.  Hope the kid does better.

>>

>> Ron

>>

>Ron,

>

>Just to inform you, my son gets plenty of liquids, and he drinks mineral

>water and pure fruit juices, NOT kool aid!  As for sugar, it has

>always been kept to a minimum in my house!  To suggest dehydration

>appears as an attack on my skills as a mother...in today's day and

>age, there should be absolutely NO reason dehydration except for pure

>ignorance.

>

>Melodie



The fruit juices are, in part, causing the problem. I don't remember how

old you said he was (9?). Perhaps he would be willing to drink some

homebrewed ginger ale (SUGAR-sweetened ginger tea?).



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:19:43 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: slim tea

In-Reply-To:  <v03007802ae75b7b48045@[130.191.107.20]>



>since the subject is caffeine, does anyone know where i might find a list

>of all food/plant substances that contain caffeine or caffeine

>derivatives?

>thanks,

>Natalie



It's a short list:



Coffee (Coffea sp.)

Tea (Camellia sinensis)

Cocoa (Theobroma cacao)

Mate (Ilex paraguariensis)

Guarana (Paullina cupana)

Cola (Cola nitida)



Anyone know of any others? I think that's it.



Oh, and I mistakenly wrote theobromine, when tea actually contains more of

another caffeine (actually, more correctly called 'xanthine') derivative:

theophylline.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:42:13 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Paul Iannone <pi2@LOOP.COM>

Subject:      Re: Allergies, was Re: Chinese Herbs

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.3.89.9609301231.A8311-0100000@bgnet1.bgsu.edu>



>Then what would be the remedy, changes to reverse this digestive

>dampness/weak digestion?

>

>Lesley



Well, there is still no diagnosis, as far as I can tell <g>. But lifestyle

changes and the appropriate herbal formula, generally.



Paul



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:22:04 -0700

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Howie Brounstein <howieb@TELEPORT.COM>

Subject:      Caffeine containing plants



Here's a list. Please note that just because the raw plant contains so many

Parts per million caffeine does not mean that the final cured or processed

product will contain the same amounts ..... or just because the raw Tea

plant is at the top of the list does not mean that the drink tea is at the

top of the list.



How did I get this list? From my home page (below in sig) I went to

"phytochemical and ethnobotanical databases"  to "search a plants containing

a particular chemical."





If you want a list of plants containing a particular chemical, you can

always go directly to:



http://www.ars-grin.gov/~ngrlsb/highchem.html





Plants Containing CAFFEINE







Camellia sinensis (L.) KUNTZE   - Tea  (Leaf) 3,810-93,000 ppm

Paullinia cupana KUNTH ex H.B.K.   - Guarana  (Seed) 25,000-76,000 ppm

Camellia sinensis (L.) KUNTZE   - Tea  (Shoot) 38,100-47,900 ppm

Coffea arabica L.   - Coffee  (Seed) 600-32,000 ppm

Paullinia yoko SCHULTES & KILLIP   - Yoko  (Bark) 27,300 ppm

Cola acuminata (P. BEAUV.) SCHOTT & ENDL.   - Abata Cola  (Seed)

10,000-25,000 ppm

Genipa americana L.   - Genipap  (Seed) 22,500 ppm

Ilex paraguariensis ST. HIL.   - Mate  (Leaf) 2,000-20,000 ppm

Theobroma cacao L.   - Cacao  (Seed) 500-12,900 ppm

Theobroma cacao L.   - Cacao  (Testa) 130-723 ppm

Theobroma cacao L.   - Cacao  (Petiole) 51-525 ppm

Theobroma bicolor HBK.   - Nicaraguan Cacao  (Testa) 192-235 ppm

Theobroma bicolor HBK.   - Nicaraguan Cacao  (Fruit) 158-184 ppm

Theobroma bicolor HBK.   - Nicaraguan Cacao  (Seed) 110-147 ppm

Theobroma bicolor HBK.   - Nicaraguan Cacao  (Petiole) 72-138 ppm

Theobroma angustifolium    - Castarica  (Petiole) 80-82 ppm

Citrus sinensis (L.) OSBECK   - Orange  (Flower) 62 ppm

Theobroma angustifolium    - Castarica  (Seed) 35-57 ppm

Theobroma angustifolium    - Castarica  (Testa) 38-52 ppm

Citrus limon (L.) BURMAN f.   - Lemon  (Flower) 50 ppm

Citrus paradisi MacFAD.   - Grapefruit  (Flower) 29 ppm

Citrus sinensis (L.) OSBECK   - Orange  (Leaf) 6 ppm



Phytochemeco Database - USDA - ARS - NGRL

Stephen M. Beckstrom-Sternberg and James A. Duke

The USDA does not recommend self diagnosis or self medication.

Please see the disclaimer for more information.

Mon Sep 30 14:15:37 US/Eastern 1996







Howie Brounstein

howieb@teleport.com

http://www.teleport.com/~howieb/howie.html



"It's easy to harvest wild plants, the hard part is not harvesting."



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:07:51 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Karyn Spence <KSpence414@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: "drugstore" herbs



>I live in Canada and I've noticed that the drugstores are carrying more

>and more herbs.Most have a full line, or at least the more popular ones

>at a third of the price of the health food stores. Are they just as good?

>Christine



Christine,

Is that a trick question??  It's kind of like asking if synthetic vitamins

are better that natural or food-based vitamins.  I prefer to get herbs that

I've collected myself, or from companies that I know are earth-friendly.  You

might pay more, but you will probably get a better product, meaning one that

is ethically wildcrafted, or organic, and hopefully contains exactly what it

says.  Some companies may not screen their herbs to make sure that the

shipment contains only what it is supposed to have, i.e. no extra weeds, etc.

I'm also blessed to live in an area with local herb companies and schools, so

I've met the owners or higher ups of a few companies.  I use these personal

contacts before I use a "generic" brand.

Karyn



From a@b.c Sat Jan 01 16:46:16 1994

Date:         Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:50:06 -0400

Reply-To:     Medicinal and Aromatic Plants discussion list

              <HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR>

Sender:       HERB@TREARNPC.EGE.EDU.TR

From:         Brian Murphy <NOLAspr@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Lipid soluble plant antibiotics



Lipid solubility is a characteristic of some drugs that has greatly enhanced

efficacy.  The greater the lipid solubility the greater the affinity for some

tissues.  For instance,   substances must have a significant  degree of lipid

solubility to cross the blood brain barrier. Thererfore, infections of the

CNS are best treated with high lipid slouble antimicrobials.



