From kusai@okcity.com Thu Oct 12 19:59:31 2000

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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 11:59:31 -0500

From: David Drexler <kusai@okcity.com>

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Subject: [HerbInfo] thymus nitidus?

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Posted To HerbInfo By: David Drexler <kusai@okcity.com>



Hi, I'm in the US and looking for seeds of thymus nitidus (creeping orange

peel thyme, a ground cover thyme with intense orange scent and varicoloured

flowers).  Search engines show me only a small handful of sources, all for

established plants, and none in North America.



If anyone can point me to North American source I should be grateful.



Thanks!



dd

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From dblan@netusa1.net Fri Nov 03 00:10:46 2000

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From: "Gardenthyme Lady" <dblan@netusa1.net>

To: "Herbinfo" <herbinfo@alist4u.net>

Subject: [HerbInfo] FW: tincturing

Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 17:10:46 -0500

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Posted To HerbInfo By: "Gardenthyme Lady" <dblan@netusa1.net>







Basically a good description of tincturing, but somewhat confusing on the

percentage of alcohol to tincture in..seemed to me he was suggesting buying

everclear 95% alcohol, but diluting it 50% with water to make the tincture.

I thought it was better to use 95% alcohol to make most tinctures, that

would get more of the medicinal properties from the herb, am I wrong in this

assumption?

Also was confused about the strenghths of tinctures needed to do any good

taking them..ie: tsps instead of drops, and tinctures not being strong

enough to do much good.

He mentions milk thistle as one, but does not specify exactly what he means,

or if he does, I don't quite understand it.

I am getting ready to tincture some milk thistle seeds, and I need to know

1) whether to pull the seeds out of the pods to tincture, or leave them in

the pods and cover with alcohol, and 2) If I need to use full strength

everclear, or dilute it to 50%.  After reading several articules, I think

you would need 280 mg of capsulated to maintain healthy liver function, so

how does that compare with the tincture amount ie: 10 drops, 1 teaspoon, 1

tablespoon or what?

I also am tincturing echinachea in 95% everclear, it is still in root form,

broken into chunks.  Will it take longer than 4 weeks to develop into a good

tincture due to not being powdered?  What would be a good estimate of what

would make a dose of this?  I have taken 1 tsp. in tea in the past, now I'm

not sure if that is the best amount to take.

I appreciate the information.



Dee

"The Gardenthyme Lady"



You give little when you give of your possessions. It is when

you give of yourself that you truly give.

--Kahlil Gibran



> I am looking for sources of "how-to" information for making my own

> tinctures and oils.  Can anyone get me pointed in the right

> direction?



This is a site that has some good insights:



http://www.homehealthresource.net/tinctures.html



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From garden@qwestinternet.net Fri Nov 03 01:41:51 2000

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Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] drying comfrey leaves

Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 18:41:51 -0500

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Posted To HerbInfo By: "Maryland Organics" <garden@qwestinternet.net>



What is the best method to dry Comfrey leaves? I have a beautiful stand of

it mostly untouched as yet by the frost but probably won't hold out much

longer.

Anne

-----



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From woodwitch@juno.com Fri Nov 03 05:17:53 2000

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Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:17:53 -0700

Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] drying comfrey leaves

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Posted To HerbInfo By: woodwitch@juno.com



> What is the best method to dry Comfrey leaves?



hmmmmmmm

what ever's best for you.

you can lay out newspaper on a table, lay the leaves out (I suggest

rinsing the dirt off and damping excess water off)  turn as needed to

evenly dry.  It helps if it is in a cool dry semi dark place.  Dry is the

key word, no?



If you have wire racks (screen reinforced with ferring strips -2X2's) lay

them out.  Sun drying is nice if you still have it.  Bring in at night. 

racks can be made with screen and material rated at 300*F(150*C) and

placed into a slow oven (200-250*F).  Laying them on a baking sheet may

work, but I like the convection where the heat gets both above and below

the leaf..



The root is excellent to tincture (if you can spare it, or care to).  I

macerate it in witchhazel for a wound healer (after washing with soap and

water and removing dirt and particles)  It helps heal with minute

scarring)  (not to be used for puncture wounds)



An allopath I once visited used comfrey (pulverized leaf and capsulated)

as allergy remedy against cat.  FDA and other sources say it is harmful. 

I don't have the exact data, but the allopath quit taking it.  <shrug>   

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From suesherbals@compuserve.com Sat Nov 04 03:42:14 2000

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Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 20:42:14 -0500

From: Sue Gage Jennings <suesherbals@compuserve.com>

Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] drying comfrey leaves

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Sue Gage Jennings <suesherbals@compuserve.com>



I cut at the stalk and hang upside down in a warmish room until crispy

critters. My leaves are about 2 1/2 to 3 feet long.   I hang from racks

made of dowling in my herb room.   A  piece of twine is used  to  tie

together a couple leaves that are hung from the rack with the same twine. 

I do the same with most herbs that have large leaves or branches.  I am a

great supporter of comfrey, both leaf and root.  ( just don't use the first

leaves of the year in spring )

Love, Light, and Healing Energy,   Sue

Sue's Herbals

in sunny Northern California

suesherbals@compuserve.com

 

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From garden@qwestinternet.net Sat Nov 04 04:08:57 2000

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From: "Maryland Organics" <garden@qwestinternet.net>

To: <herbinfo@alist4u.net>

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Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] drying comfrey leaves

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Posted To HerbInfo By: "Maryland Organics" <garden@qwestinternet.net>



Thanks to all for the great info. I will pick some tomorrow. Please tell me

why the first leaves of Spring are not used.

Thanks Anne



I cut at the stalk and hang upside down in a warmish room until crispy

critters. My leaves are about 2 1/2 to 3 feet long.   I hang from racks

made of dowling in my herb room.   A  piece of twine is used  to  tie

together a couple leaves that are hung from the rack with the same twine.

I do the same with most herbs that have large leaves or branches.  I am a

great supporter of comfrey, both leaf and root.  ( just don't use the first

leaves of the year in spring )

Love, Light, and Healing Energy,   Sue

Sue's Herbals

in sunny Northern California

suesherbals@compuserve.com







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From: Sue Gage Jennings <suesherbals@compuserve.com>

Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] drying comfrey leaves

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Sue Gage Jennings <suesherbals@compuserve.com>



I am including  part of the article "The Comfrey Controversy" by Rosemary

Gladstar ( the Godmother of herbology in America).  The first leaves in the

Spring have the most concentration of PA's. Use them in your compost pile. 

It will help it to heat up.   If  you want the whole article, I will email

to you privately.  

Love, Light, and Healing Energy,   Sue

Sue's Herbals

in sunny Northern California

suesherbals@compuserve.com



It's no wonder comfrey's been extolled as one of the renowned healing herbs

of all times.  Its very name, Symphytum, means 'to heal'.  Rich

concentrations of Allantoin. a cell proliferant that stimulates the growth

of connective tissue and cartilage make comfrey a specific for broken

bones, torn cartilage, swellings, and bruises.  It contains tannin as well

as high

concentrations of mucilage in its chemical make-up so is not only soothing

but constrictive and healing for wounds, cuts. and tears.  It also contains

steroidal saponins making it particularly beneficial for reproductive and

hormonal imbalances.  Along with all its specific healing properties,

comfrey is also a delicious and nourishing food herb.  It: contains high

amounts of plant digestible calcium, iron. protein (up to 35%, seven times

more protein than soybeans), B vitamins and vitamin A, among other things. 

        



Down through the ages in many parts of the world comfrey's been recognized

as one of the great healing herbs and has maintained its scrupulous

reputation....right up to the present day.



In 1968 an independent Japanese scientist first reported finding

pyrrolizidine alkaloids, substances that are regarded as potentially

hepatoxic and carcinogenic, in the young leaves and roots of comfrey. 

Austrian studies confirmed the Japanese reports.  The news spread through

the scientific community and filtered into the herbal community like wild

fire.  What a furor those reports caused. A recent headline in one

newspaper states "Warning ! Comfrey Tea can Kill You"!  Once considered one

of the great all time healing herbs, comfrey now sits on trial as a

possible carcinogen and as a cause of hepatic veno-occlusive disease.



Pyrrolizidine alkaloids (PA's), a broad based chemical group including more

than 200 different alkaloids, are found in a widespread variety of

flowering plants throughout the world.  They seem to be most concentrated

in members of the Borage family, the Pea family, and some members of the

Aster family.  PA's first became a health concern in the mid 70's when,

during a severe drought several thousand Afghani villagers developed severe

liver impairment, many of whom died.  The source of the problem was traced

to PA infected wheat (from a Heliotrope species).  There have been a couple

of other epidemics of veno-occlusive disease occurring in third world

countries as a result of accidental and long term ingestion of PA infected

grain (traced to Crotalaria species). These cases prompted an investigation

of plants containing PA's. In the process, comfrey, the most popular and

widely used memberof the Borage family, was analyzed.  It is difficult to

draw any conclusive information, however, from the tests given 

the various results reported.  As is so often the case with studies, there

are enough discrepancies and various "scientific findings" to satisfy what

ever we'd like to believe.



Though it is important to be open to the possible dangers of comfrey, it is

as important to sift through the information and misinformation and to form

opinions based on fact, rather than hysteria.  The truth of the matter is

that most plants reveal within their chemical blue print a wide variety of

constituents, many of them potentially harmful.  These chemicals form a

synergistic relationship with one another, often nullifying and or

strengthening certain aspects of one another.  Michael Tierra states in The

Way of Herbs, "Plants have a dynamically 

complex biochemistry.  In many instances this allows for small amounts of

substances, which when isolated and concentrated might otherwise be

poisonous, to be quite safe and harmless." The sum total of these hundreds

of chemicals determine the personality, or action of the plant. Judging a

plant's action based on one chemical is like judging a person by the fact

that their hair is brown.



Studies conducted in Washington found very minute amounts of pyrrolizidine

alkaloids in comfrey.  Some plants tested had none at all.  An independent

researcher in the U.S. found that of three samples tested for pyrrolizidine

alkaloids, one was negative, the second contained only trace amounts, and

the third contained one part per million equaling a sum total of an

infinitesimal amount of this alleged toxic substance.  In Steven Foster's

article in the February issue of Herb Companion he cites that 8 PA's have

been identified, though different varieties of Comfrey have various amounts

and only two of the most abundant PA's, according to him, are under

scrutiny.  It brings to mind the words of the highly respected Dr. Rudolp

Weiss  "Modern methods of chemical analysis are now so sophisticated,

working in nano units (l0 to the 9th power), that harmful substances will

be found almost anywhere, with the result that we feel constantly

threatened."  Dr. Weiss, by the way, seemed cautious about accepting

current r

esearch on comfrey toxicity.



No matter what your position on this matter, this toxicity information

should be put in perspective.  Mark Blumenthal states, "The comfrey

incident might have looked different if it had been put into context of a

toxicity scale. One such scale is the HERP index, which classifies the

cancer-causing potentials of various substances.  Extrapolating from the

HERP index, former U.S. Department of Agriculture botanist James Duke,

Ph.D., calculates that less than one-fifth an ounce of brown mustard is

twice as cancer causing as comfrey tea, which has roughly the same

cancer-causing potential as a peanut butter sandwich.  Wine is 144 times

more cancer causing than an equal amount of comfrey tea."



It is essential to always recall when reading test results that the whole

is always greater than the sum of the parts. As more and more tests are

being conducted on herbs and the chemicals isolated, it is important to be

open minded about the results; open minded to the fact that science is

fallible.  If a plant has been found safe and effective for a thousand

years of human use, it may be wise to question the validity and

applicability of the tests being used.  There is generally some

unidentified part of the plant in the form of another chemical or an innate

natural wisdom that allows the medicine, when taken as a whole, to function

in a safe and beneficial manner.



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Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] tincturing

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Posted To HerbInfo By: woodwitch@juno.com



> Basically a good description of tincturing, but somewhat confusing 

> on the percentage of alcohol to tincture in..seemed to me he was

suggesting 

> buying everclear 95% alcohol, but diluting it 50% with water to make

the 

> tincture.



It can be done in various amounts (this is where simple algebra comes in)

depending on what solution rate you'd like.



> I thought it was better to use 95% alcohol to make most tinctures, 

> that would get more of the medicinal properties from the herb, am I

wrong 

> in this assumption?



again, depending on the herb and which properties you wish to extract. 

Some herbal properties are water soluble, some with alcohol (EtOH).  If

most of the beneficial properties are EtOH soluble, then the higher

concentration would be best for the tincture.

If many properties can be extracted at a time, H2O/EtOH ratios change.  



95% EtOH can be bought in the US at most liquor stores, costing a pretty

penny, but it can go a long way when diluted with distilled/deionized

water (sterile H2O) and for good herb is worth the money.



One can also use a 50% vodka for a tincture, being much less hassle of

mixing (unless you're doing many different tinctures at different

dilutions) and much less expensive.



Liniments can be made with isopropyl alcohol, these are NOT for

consumption, but used for muscular and integumentary (thru the skin)

absorption.



> Also was confused about the strenghths of tinctures needed to do any 

> good taking them..ie: tsps instead of drops, and tinctures not being 

> strong enough to do much good.



3 tsp=1 Tb=1/2oz=15ml=15gm(dry)=1/8dL

don't let the equations fool ya, count the drops from a dedicated dropper

and you'll have your standard.



> He mentions milk thistle as one, but does not specify exactly what 

> he means, or if he does, I don't quite understand it.



Who is he, did I miss something  <grin>

milk thistle seed is what is tinctured.  good for the liver.  



> I am getting ready to tincture some milk thistle seeds, and I need 

> to know 1) whether to pull the seeds out of the pods to tincture, or

leave 

> them in the pods and cover with alcohol



I clean the seeds and crush them.  (fresh is best)



> and 2) If I need to use full strength everclear, or dilute it to 50%. 

After reading several 

> articules, I think you would need 280 mg of capsulated to maintain

healthy liver 

> function, so how does that compare with the tincture amount ie: 10

drops, 1 

> teaspoon, 1 tablespoon or what?



see above.  the math is there.



> I also am tincturing echinachea in 95% everclear, it is still in 

> root form, broken into chunks.  Will it take longer than 4 weeks to

develop 

> into a good tincture due to not being powdered?  



how big are the chunks?  If they were very large, it may take some time,

would have been good to at least pulverize after washing, doesn't need to

be powder.   I would suggest making sure of shaking and mixing as the

alcohol macerate (breaks down) the compostion of chemicals stored in the

root.  



> What would be a good estimate 

> of what would make a dose of this?  I have taken 1 tsp. in tea in the

past, 

> now I'm not sure if that is the best amount to take.

> I appreciate the information.



If 1tsp in tea in the past has worked for you, then it is a good guess

that the same amount will assist in your wellbeing.  I take my tinctures

in straight (filtered) water.  <sigh>  I hesitate to drink municiple

waters unless boiled.  Some constituents may break down in hot beverage,

others become more enhanced.



Enjoy the adventure.  Making your own well being is a joy.

I miss my gardens..........  (recently moved to the desert)

A whole 'nuther kind of life out here.  :)



mischa

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From paf@webzone.net Sun Nov 05 01:30:58 2000

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Subject: [HerbInfo] Comfrey plants/seeds

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Posted To HerbInfo By: paf@webzone.net



I need a comfrey plant for my garden, and my erstwhile sources for seed

seem to have dried up.  Anybody know where I can get seed or plant?  I'm in

Tulsa.

Tia,

Anita





--



paf@webzone.net





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From: Choalayna <PROCESSOR@prodigy.net>

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Choalayna <PROCESSOR@prodigy.net>



paf@webzone.net wrote:

> 

> Posted To HerbInfo By: paf@webzone.net

> 

> I need a comfrey plant for my garden, and my erstwhile sources for seed

> seem to have dried up.  Anybody know where I can get seed or plant?  I'm in

> Tulsa.

> Tia,

> Anita





try  http://www.richters.com



Choalayna

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From: Bobbi Guerra <herbalsoaplady@worldnet.att.net>

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Subject: [HerbInfo] Comfrey - Rosemary Gladstar

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Bobbi Guerra <herbalsoaplady@worldnet.att.net>



Subject:

            Comfrey - Rosemary Gladstar

       Date:

            Sun, 05 Nov 2000 15:58:34 -0600

      From:

            Bobbi Guerra <herbalsoaplady@worldnet.att.net>

        To:

            herbinfo@alist4u.net.net

 References:

            1









> I have a large comfrey plant in a half whickey barrel that

Rosemay Gladstar

> allowed me to dig at her home in Vermont.  Been in the barrel

since the summer

> of 1997.  Rosemary is a wonderful teacher and a beautiful

person.  I trust her

> advice 100% on anything to do with healing and herbal medicine.



Glad you reminded me of the "first leaves" business.  I plan to

let this plant

out of the barrel in the spring.  She will grow near the compost

pile at our new

home. Will use the leaves for the compost and dry some for use in

soap and steep

some in olive oil for my healing salves.



Sure wish this list had more folks to "talk" with re herbs.  They

are my love and

I am having a wonderful and healthy time of my life discovering

all that was once

common knowledge and use by the inhabitants of this earth.



Blessings,

Bobbi

The Purple Sage

Fine Hand Crafted Soap & Toiletries

Little Rock, Arkansas











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From garden@qwestinternet.net Mon Nov 06 04:16:46 2000

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From: "Maryland Organics" <garden@qwestinternet.net>

To: <herbinfo@alist4u.net>

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Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] Comfrey - Rosemary Gladstar

Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 21:16:46 -0500

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Posted To HerbInfo By: "Maryland Organics" <garden@qwestinternet.net>



Yes, I love to talk about herbs too -can't get enough! I appreciated the

info about the Comfrey. Would love to have been the recipient of any herb

that belongs to Rosemary! I also make soap and other herbal toiletries. I

have quite a collection of herbalism books - David Hoffman, Lousie Tenney,

Rosemary Gladstar, Dr John Christopher (just ordered his book used on the

net), Penelope Ody, Andrew Chevallier, Culpepper,Jethro Kloss and a few

others I cannot think of at the moment, I have to buy a new bookcase just

for my herb books.

Anne

>

>

>

> > I have a large comfrey plant in a half whickey barrel that

> Rosemay Gladstar

> > allowed me to dig at her home in Vermont.  Been in the barrel

> since the summer

> > of 1997.  Rosemary is a wonderful teacher and a beautiful

> person.  I trust her

> > advice 100% on anything to do with healing and herbal medicine.

>

> Glad you reminded me of the "first leaves" business.  I plan to

> let this plant

> out of the barrel in the spring.  She will grow near the compost

> pile at our new

> home. Will use the leaves for the compost and dry some for use in

> soap and steep

> some in olive oil for my healing salves.

>

> Sure wish this list had more folks to "talk" with re herbs.  They

> are my love and

> I am having a wonderful and healthy time of my life discovering

> all that was once

> common knowledge and use by the inhabitants of this earth.

>

> Blessings,

> Bobbi

> The Purple Sage

> Fine Hand Crafted Soap & Toiletries

> Little Rock, Arkansas

>

>

>

>

>

> _________________________________________________________________________

>



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From oct-moon@juno.com Mon Nov 06 05:41:53 2000

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Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 22:41:53 -0500

Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] Comfrey - Rosemary Gladstar

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Posted To HerbInfo By: october moon <oct-moon@juno.com>



I went to Sage Mountain this summer, but did not get to meet Rosemary...

but Rebecca was great, and the trails were very beatuiful and

informative.   Is anyone taking her course?

I have just started making soap, and would love to know more about adding

comfrey.

Blessings, Nell



Never in this world can hatred be stilled by hatred; it will  be stilled

only by non-hatred-

this is the law Eternal.

 --Buddha

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Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] Comfrey - Rosemary Gladstar

Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 20:22:01 -0800

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Posted To HerbInfo By: "Sydney" <SydneyS@mediaone.net>





----- Original Message -----

From: october moon <oct-moon@juno.com>

To: <herbinfo@alist4u.net>

Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 7:41 PM

Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] Comfrey - Rosemary Gladstar





>

> Posted To HerbInfo By: october moon <oct-moon@juno.com>

>

> I have just started making soap, and would love to know more about adding

> comfrey.

> Blessings, Nell



 Hi Nell,

Comfrey is a great herbal soap, espeicially for older skin.  I infuse the

comfrey with olive oils and use that oil as part of my base oils.  I also

crush some of the comfrey leaf and add it to the soap for texture

Sydney



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Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] Comfrey - Rosemary Gladstar

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In a message dated 11/6/00 7:24:54 PM, SydneyS@mediaone.net writes:



<< Comfrey is a great herbal soap, espeicially for older skin.  I infuse the



comfrey with olive oils and use that oil as part of my base oils.  I also



crush some of the comfrey leaf and add it to the soap for texture



Sydney



 >>



Hi Sydney;

how much comfrey are we talking here?   for both the infused oil and adding 

the crushed comfrey leaf to the soap later on.

phebe

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From petal@monroe.net Mon Nov 06 20:56:57 2000

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Posted To HerbInfo By: petal@monroe.net



> I went to Sage Mountain this summer, but did not get to meet

Rosemary...

> Is anyone taking her course?



Hi Group!



I am in the midst of taking Rosemarys correspondence course-

it's absolutely wonderful!



Nell- when I make comfrey soap, I add the powdered form

to my superfatted oils and mix together before pouring in to my

soap.



Cheers!

--

Kathy Tarbox   The Saponifier Magazine   Silvana, WA

(360) 652-4367   FAX:(603) 719-8727   kathy@saponifier.com

The Saponifier - The Voice for the Handcrafted Soap Industry

URL: http://www.saponifier.com





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From woodwitch@juno.com Tue Nov 07 00:14:59 2000

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Subject: [HerbInfo] herbs

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Posted To HerbInfo By: woodwitch@juno.com



OK, I'm new out here to the western US (arizona) and am just getting over

the culture shock.

;-]  I miss my gardens back east (but don't miss that humidity ONE bit!) 

the plants do, tho, but they've got these neat little misters you can

install on the side of your house or fence, acts like a humidifier.  



The chocolate mint I brought with me is surviving (like you can kill a

mint, right?) and the jasmine standard bloomed all summer and is blooming

even now.



I headed out to the Santa Ritas this weekend, rockhounding, and brought

back some perenniels (bright yellow flower, dusty light green basal

foliage) and a possible member of the mint family, pink purple flowers,

opposite serrated leaves, with a faint smell of lemon insect repellent. 

I've never come upon the plant back east.  Of course, it may not survive

cuz they were blasting the heater in the truck it rode in on the way back

to town.

I also gather a red yucca and two ocotillo.  (my favorite cactus)  I also

found a desert fern.  It was near a marsh, but seems frightfully hardy.



The desert is a marvelous place, not barren at all, tho it does get

rather harsh.  



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Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 16:13:03 -0800

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From: Pat <ej10817@goodnet.com>

Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] herbs

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Pat <ej10817@goodnet.com>



At 03:14 PM 11/6/00 -0700, you wrote:



>Posted To HerbInfo By: woodwitch@juno.com

>

>OK, I'm new out here to the western US (arizona) and am just getting over

>the culture shock.

>;-]  I miss my gardens back east (but don't miss that humidity ONE bit!)

>the plants do, tho, but they've got these neat little misters you can

>install on the side of your house or fence, acts like a humidifier.

>

>The chocolate mint I brought with me is surviving (like you can kill a

>mint, right?) and the jasmine standard bloomed all summer and is blooming

>even now.

>

>I headed out to the Santa Ritas this weekend, rockhounding, and brought

>back some perenniels (bright yellow flower, dusty light green basal

>foliage) and a possible member of the mint family, pink purple flowers,

>opposite serrated leaves, with a faint smell of lemon insect repellent.

>I've never come upon the plant back east.  Of course, it may not survive

>cuz they were blasting the heater in the truck it rode in on the way back

>to town.

>I also gather a red yucca and two ocotillo.  (my favorite cactus)  I also

>found a desert fern.  It was near a marsh, but seems frightfully hardy.

>

>The desert is a marvelous place, not barren at all, tho it does get

>rather harsh.



Hi, it would be interesting to know just where you are located. I live in 

low desert, in Phoenix and really enjoy gardening here, except in summer of 

course. It's true that many things that grow back east won't grow here but 

we have a marvelous diversity of plants and trees here. Are you where you 

see the stately saguaros? I love those and am somewhat of a novice 

cactophile. I have quite a few small types and a few larger ones.

I love herbs, both culinary and medicinal though I know little about 

medicinal herbs. I would like to make my own lotions and other things, 

perhaps someone on this list knows how.

I love fresh basil, mine survived the summer and is thriving now, as well 

as the sage. It is time to plant winter garden, if you are interested. One 

of my favorites is snow peas which are planted this time of year and bear 

for a long time. I have planted these and lettuce and onions recently. 

Leeks do well too, as well as garlic.

Sorry to all for rambling on, when I get started with gardening, I get 

carried away.

Happy gardening!!

Pat



Pat Kolb, Contributing Editor, Low Desert Gardening, Suite 101

http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/low_desert_gardening



For great service and prices, please visit this site for all your travel needs:

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From woodwitch@juno.com Tue Nov 07 02:40:56 2000

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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 17:40:56 -0700

Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] herbs

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Posted To HerbInfo By: woodwitch@juno.com



Pat,

I'm in Tucson.  I have a nice little 1bd house with a big yard,

irrigation (if I could only figure it out) and a garden already set up in

the back yard.  <grin>

I work with animals, and I bring home black plastic bags of sheep bedding

(with manure) and let it cook in the bags over the summer.  I have my

compost!  We have rabbits, too, and I make manure tea with that.



There is a pamphlet that the Master Gardener's program put out a long

time ago here, Desert Harvest is its name.  One of my coworkers lent it

to me.  Shows how to set up flood irrigation.  I've brought white plastic

barrels home from work to catch rain water.  I use my grey water (dish

water) to put out on the plants after washing dishes.  Water is crucial

here, so any way to collect it is needed.  Of course, its been raining

here this whole last week and Oct was the wettest one they had ever

had...... I wonder if I didn't bring the rains with me......

I wish I could take the credit, fer sure!  LOL



mischa

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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

To: herbinfo@alist4u.net

Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] herbs

Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 19:52:35 +0200

Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>



woodwitch@juno.com wrote to herbinfo@alist4u.net:



>I also gather a red yucca and two ocotillo.  (my favorite cactus)  I also

>found a desert fern.  It was near a marsh, but seems frightfully hardy.



Ocotillo is considered a cactus in AZ law. If you're caught even picking up a

dead branch it's a fine of 1000 USD, IIRC.



For information on how to _use_ Southwest plants check Michael Moore's books

"Medicinal Plants of the Desert and Canyon West", "Medicinal Plants of the

Mountain West", and "Medicinal Plants of the Pacific West".



Ocotillo is an excellent medical herb.



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

hetta@saunalahti.fi     Helsinki, Finland      http://ibiblio.org/herbmed

Medicinal and Culinary herbFAQs, jpegs, database, neat stuff, archives...

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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:00:45 -0700

Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] herbs

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Posted To HerbInfo By: woodwitch@juno.com



> Ocotillo is considered a cactus in AZ law. If you're caught even 

> picking up a

> dead branch it's a fine of 1000 USD, IIRC.



Thanks for the info, but I do know that Sugharo and Native Barrel cactus

are protected.

they sell ocotillo at the local garden center.



besides, I may have done wrong unwittingly, but the ones I took were from

the sides of a wash, they may not have survived last nights terrible

rains, anyways.

(not to mention, I asked permission of the plants)



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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

To: herbinfo@alist4u.net

Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] herbs

Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 00:47:23 -0800

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>



woodwitch@juno.com wrote to herbinfo@alist4u.net:



>Thanks for the info, but I do know that Sugharo and Native Barrel cactus

>are protected.



ALL cacti are protected in AZ. Ocotillo is not a cactus, botanically, but

legally it is.

So be prepared (really.) for a hefty fine if some authority or other catches you

at digging up ocotillos from the sides of washes. Or at picking up dead cholla

branches. Or at taking a saguaro skeleton. Or at damaging a living cactus (be it

one botanically or not) in any way.



Henriette



-- 

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To: herbinfo@alist4u.net

Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:02:54 -0700

Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] herbs

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Posted To HerbInfo By: woodwitch@juno.com



<grin>



I have a Teddy Bear Cholla (nasty critter, aka jumping cactus) that a

packrat dug and planted where a new house was gonna be.  hmmmmmmmmmmmmm



I am at one with the lands here and if I'm in the wrong, then the

authorities have the right.

That's why there are federally protected lands.  I have research a few of

the legalities (hell, have only been here 6 months) but open range is

open range.  



thanks henrietta, I will be more aware in the future.  <grin>

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Posted To HerbInfo By: lcrouch@netzero.net



Seems to me you are writing from Tucson.  If so, don't forget the wonderful

resource at the Cooperative Extension office on Campbell Avenue (next to

Circle K between River and Roger).  They will answer all your questions and

have alot of literature available regarding growing things in the area. 

Also, John Begeman (from that office) has a weekly column in the Star on

what to do gardening-wise for that period of the year.	Also, for bug

identification, call the Entomology Department at the University of

Arizona.



Tell me, do you feel the energy in the area?  I've never felt anything like

it anywhere else.  They say Sedona is that way, too, but I've never been

there.



If I can be of any help (doctor, hair, nail, shopping referrals) please let

me know.  



Lori

(transplanted to Southern California)



At 03:14 PM 11/6/00 -0700, you wrote:



Posted To HerbInfo By: woodwitch@juno.com



OK, I'm new out here to the western US (arizona) and am just getting over

the culture shock.

[snip]

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From woodwitch@juno.com Tue Nov 07 05:28:33 2000

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Posted To HerbInfo By: woodwitch@juno.com



Lori, thanks!!!

really....



I was gonna write again to remind Pat that my back yard is the Sugharo

Nat'l forest and I go horseback riding thru it as often as possible.



the energy here is only that I feel I am home and welcome.  Its not the

healing that I seek, but it is a relief from where I was.  (if that makes

sense)



As for the entomology dept, I work for the UofA in research, my best

friend is biocommunications for Biosciences dept here.  :)   I'm hoping

to one day have a ranch.... my love for horses is astounding and this is

the closest I've been to my dreams in ages.



:)  thanks for the help.  Have yet to find time for the extension office.

 As for a newspaper, I don't take one, it would only be clutter in my

house or waste in the recycle bin.  thank you anyway.  I can get most of

it online, but from the years of working in the dirt, I'll have no

problem getting things done.  <smile>   Compost, compost, mulch.    ;-]



Nails?  yea, right, I forget to wear gloves, my hands would rather have

dirt under my nails.

lol  my hair I cut myself.  <sigh>  grass roots, yea, hard to get rid of.



I'm on the nw/central side of tucson.  not far from UMC.  I do love it

here, able to ride my bike to work (when its not RAINING!!!)  lol, rain

in the desert, to think I'm ready to bitch about it.  <giggles>



winter gardens, I've got a tomato plant, has fruit but think it'll just

winter over till spring.

a vine that was in the original compost (think its gourd) and my

moonflower.  I'll do peas and salad greens next year, I'm sure.



mischa

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From grammafatt@rmci.net Tue Nov 07 21:40:17 2000

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Patt Miller <grammafatt@rmci.net>



It's nice to see more activity on the list.  Been too quiet for too

long.



I want to publicly thank Sue for her post including the article "The

Comfrey Controversy".  It was great of you Sue.  I learned a lot from it

& fwd to any I thought would be interested.



I had started drinking a cup or 2 of comfrey leaf tea per day earlier

this summer in spite of the "warnings" & noticed after a few days that

my energy level seemed to be considerably higher than previously.  I had

not expected to see such obvious improvement in so short a time.  In

fact, it took a couple days b4 I put it together.



The article resolved some questions for me & certainly eased my mind a

lot.  My feelings b4 were that the side affects from Comfrey are/were

probably not nearly as serious as the side affects from many

prescription drugs they dispense so liberally!  But that's well known by

all of us already!  Right?  Right!



Dried a ton of it for this winter, potted one piece of root so I have

some green ones for winter use, potted several to transplant to my

soon-to-be new home.  The discussions on use on the skin I have also

found very informative especially that it is good for older skin.

That's me... the old broad!  Rosemary, do you sell your soap?  You can E

me privately with details.  Sounds like something I would like to have &

I don't make soap



Love this list & again (especially to Sue) Thanks so much for that

marvelous post.  Keep 'em comin' listers!



Patt





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From suesherbals@compuserve.com Wed Nov 08 08:29:44 2000

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Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 01:29:44 -0500

From: Sue Gage Jennings <suesherbals@compuserve.com>

Subject: [HerbInfo] Comfrey

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Sue Gage Jennings <suesherbals@compuserve.com>



Patt, thanks for all the nice thoughts. 

 Sharing is just part of being in touch with the land and all living

things.  Actually you only got a small part of the article.  Let me know if

you want the rest privately.  Rosemary is a wonderful herbalist.  This is a

time when we have to support each other.  With all the big pharmaceutical

companies getting into herbs, it is hard to support a small business.  Dry

Creek Herb Farm and Learning Center, here in California,  is the wonderful

place where I took my apprenticeship course which included Rosemary's

course. Then in the following years, I continued to take advanced training

courses with many of the top herbalists in the US and England at Dry Creek.

 Well, Shatoiya De La Tour, proprietor ( author of "The Herbalist of

Yarrow") has just closed the business this last month at Dry Creek.  I am

very saddened by the closing of Dry Creek.  It is going to be increasingly

more and more important to support our sharing and growth in the use of

herbs.  The big herbal companies want to take over our ability to make

choices and tell us what herbs to take for particular problems, which is

how traditional medicine works.  Those of us who have studied and gained

some knowledge in this field usually realize how important herbs and

lifestyle are to overall health; not just to use them as a bandaid.  We

need to share and continue the grassroots growth of herbalism.  Thanks to

Henriette Kress too for all of her wonderful herbal energy ( and

information ).  I agree, it is nice to see this list coming alive.  Thanks

to the plant energies too!



Love, Light, and Healing Energy,   Sue

Sue's Herbals

in sunny Northern California

suesherbals@compuserve.com

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Patt Miller <grammafatt@rmci.net>



I couln't agree more about the big herb companies & will add that there

are also those folks like Varro Tyler who have gotten to be regarded as

"experts" who do herbals a lot of harm.



And, yes, Sue I would LOVE  to have the rest of the article but hope you

can scan rather than having to type it.  Or perhaps tell me where I can

find it at the library.  Hate to ask you to type pages & pages if there

is a better way.  And I just copied & sent the part you did send to June

Harrison (from the list) who E'd me & asked for it.  So perhaps if you

do do it, you should consider posting it on the list?



TIA,  Patt







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Posted To HerbInfo By: Patt Miller <grammafatt@rmci.net>



I couln't agree more about the big herb companies & will add that there

are also those folks like Varro Tyler who have gotten to be regarded as

"experts" who do herbals a lot of harm.



And, yes, Sue I would LOVE  to have the rest of the article but hope you

can scan rather than having to type it.  Or perhaps tell me where I can

find it at the library.  Hate to ask you to type pages & pages if there

is a better way.  And I just copied & sent the part you did send to June

Harrison (from the list) who E'd me & asked for it.  So perhaps if you

do do it, you should consider posting it on the list?



TIA,  Patt

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Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 21:42:41 -0500

From: Sue Gage Jennings <suesherbals@compuserve.com>

Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] Comfrey

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Sue Gage Jennings <suesherbals@compuserve.com>



Message text written by INTERNET:herbinfo@alist4u.net

>And I just copied & sent the part you did send to June

Harrison (from the list) who E'd me & asked for it.  So perhaps if you

do do it, you should consider posting it on the list?<

Patt,

I think it is too long for the list.  I have it in a text file, so I don't

know how long it is in say Word.  I don't need to retype it - I did that

many years ago.  I just checked out the printed article and it is two and

1/4  pages of small print on 8 1/2 X 11 pages.  I will send them out

individually unless Sam thinks it is not too long.  I guess if you knew,

you could delete it.  Let me know what you think Sam?   

Love, Light, and Healing Energy,   Sue

Sue's Herbals

in sunny Northern California

suesherbals@compuserve.com

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From lcrouch@netzero.net Wed Nov 08 03:37:19 2000

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Posted To HerbInfo By: lcrouch@netzero.net



I love the rain in Tucson.  The earth has a distinctly wonderful aroma

when it is wet.  I'm so glad you are happy there.  You are not likely

to have any problems growing your herbs there since, if I can grow

them, ANYBODY can!  



Enjoy.



Lori



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From herbalsoaplady@worldnet.att.net Wed Nov 08 06:24:18 2000

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Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 22:24:18 -0600

From: Bobbi Guerra <herbalsoaplady@worldnet.att.net>

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Bobbi Guerra <herbalsoaplady@worldnet.att.net>



I have the correspondence course - it's awesome!

Spent one week  two summers in a row doing an residential internship at Sage

Mountain.  Have been to the International Herb Symposium at Wheaton College this

past summer and went to Italy in September with Rosemary and 30 other herbally

inclined individuals.



Herbs have changed my life dramatically.  Read all I can get my hands on.  Love

that what was old is now new once again.  The general public is  very slowing

coming up to speed on use of herbs in daily life. Unfortunately the big commercial

companies are jumping on the bandwagon and putting lot's of c--p on the market.



The closer to the plant IMO is the best.



Best,

Bobbi



Bobbi



Buy a



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From herbalsoaplady@worldnet.att.net Wed Nov 08 06:28:47 2000

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Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 22:28:47 -0600

From: Bobbi Guerra <herbalsoaplady@worldnet.att.net>

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Bobbi Guerra <herbalsoaplady@worldnet.att.net>



My newest herb soaps included one with comfrey and plantain. Steeped

both herbs in olive oil for 6 weeks in a sunny location.  Used that oil

and powdered herb for a soap that I have high hopes for.



Best,

Bobbi



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From garden@qwestinternet.net Wed Nov 08 16:43:45 2000

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Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] Comfrey/herbal remedy for dog's paw?

Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:43:45 -0500

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Posted To HerbInfo By: "Maryland Organics" <garden@qwestinternet.net>



I would love to have the whole Comfrey article =:o

Also I have a question. I have a 16yo terrier who kidney/heart failure,

mostly blind and deaf but hanging in there and then she got a swollen pad

under one of her toes. Took her to the vet and they x-rayed and said it was

possibly a tumor and nothing could be done except surgical removal of toe

area, she would never make it thru surgery. I looked at the area with a

magnifying glass and there seems to be a miniscule area with a little

bleeding. I have been soaking the foot in very warm epsom salts for as long

as she will allow (maybe all of 5 mins!). I know it will be impossible to

get a poultice to stay on her but does anyone have any ideas of herbs I can

soak it in or something? Her pain is obvious when she tries to stand and can

barely walk but seems content at rest. I hate to put her down as she still

has some appetite and I just don't feel it is time. Thanks for any

suggestions.

Anne

-----



Posted To HerbInfo By: Sue Gage Jennings <suesherbals@compuserve.com>



.  Actually you only got a small part of the article.  Let me know if

you want the rest privately.  Rosemary is a wonderful herbalist.



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From suesherbals@compuserve.com Thu Nov 09 04:43:05 2000

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Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 21:43:05 -0500

From: Sue Gage Jennings <suesherbals@compuserve.com>

Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] Comfrey/herbal remedy for dog's paw?

To: "INTERNET:herbinfo@alist4u.net" <herbinfo@alist4u.net>

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Sue Gage Jennings <suesherbals@compuserve.com>



Message text written by INTERNET:herbinfo@alist4u.net

>swollen pad

under one of her toes. Took her to the vet and they x-rayed and said it was

possibly a tumor and nothing could be done except surgical removal of toe

area, she would never make it thru surgery. I looked at the area with a

magnifying glass and there seems to be a miniscule area with a little

bleeding. I have been soaking the foot in very warm epsom salts for as long

as she will allow (maybe all of 5 mins!). I know it will be impossible to

get a poultice to stay on her but does anyone have any ideas of herbs I can

soak it in or something? Her pain is obvious when she tries to stand and

can

barely walk but seems content at rest. I hate to put her down as she still

has some appetite and I just don't feel it is time.<

suggestions.<



Ann, your letter breaks my heart.  Last Nov., my rottweiler, age 11, had a

toe nail that split and the vet wanted to do tests, biopsy,etc.  I decided

to soak with epsom salts and give him some herbs to help healing; hoping

the area would heal and the nail would fall off.  Well, it turned out to be

a melanoma and we had his toe cut off on Christmas, but because I didn't

have it cut out right away, it eventually spread throughout his body.   In

March he lost his appetite and I had to beg him to eat organic steamed rice

with carrots and broccoli, and barbecued chicken.  I went on a retreat in

early April and he didn't eat at all the whole week I was gone to Arizona. 

So, eventually his body was shut down and the only thing keeping him going

was his spirit.( which he had so much of ) - on Earth Day we had to have

him put down.  So, I grieve for you, as I still grieve for the wonderful

spirit that left me.  But I did learn that with Cancer, it is not to their

benefit to wait when they can cut it out.  Knowing what to do is a hard

decision, that only you can make.

And soaking my dogs toe in Epsom salts did not help him, but I think I

probably just caused him some uncomfortable moments as I struggled to hold

his toe in the warm E Salts for 20-30 minutes twice a day.  Valerian or

Skullcap tinctures & Rescue Remedy Flower Essences may help with your dogs

comfort level.     Hope this helps alittle.  I understand your pain.  

Love, Light, and Healing Energy,   Sue

Sue's Herbals

in sunny Northern California

suesherbals@compuserve.com

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To: herbinfo@alist4u.net

Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 19:56:36 -0700

Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] Comfrey/herbal remedy for dog's paw?

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Posted To HerbInfo By: woodwitch@juno.com



> I had to beg him to eat organic steamed rice

> with carrots and broccoli, and barbecued chicken. 



Sue,

ya know me....

but ya'd have to bet most anyone to eat that.  <grin>



Bein' here in the desert there are all kinds of things that get into paws

(and hands and my feet!!!, learnin' to wear shoes!)

anyway, if an animal is constantly licking a paw, its a sure sign there

is something irritating the animal there.



On the other hand, do we euthanize to preserve the animals quality of

life or put it off to satisfy our own needs.  Hey, I've cried many a tear

and am always with my creature during its demise be it natural or

induced.  I could only wish someone have the decency  to put me down when

I need it.

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From garden@qwestinternet.net Thu Nov 09 05:54:53 2000

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Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] Comfrey/herbal remedy for dog's paw?

Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 22:54:53 -0500

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Posted To HerbInfo By: "Maryland Organics" <garden@qwestinternet.net>



I will take a serving if you have some extra =:0

> 

> > I had to beg him to eat organic steamed rice

> > with carrots and broccoli, and barbecued chicken. 

> 

I don't think my kids would hesitate when the time comes or sooner  =:(> 

Anne

.  I could only wish someone have the decency  to put me down when

> I need it.

> 



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From wolfcreek1@earthlink.net Thu Nov 09 07:22:57 2000

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Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] Comfrey/herbal remedy for dog's paw?

Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 21:22:57 -0800

Organization: Wolf Creek Ranch

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Posted To HerbInfo By: "wolfcreek1" <wolfcreek1@earthlink.net>



> I looked at the area with a

> magnifying glass and there seems to be a miniscule area with a little

bleeding.



Hi Anne ~



Sorry to hear about your terrier.  My favorite skin remedy is aloe vera.

You can smear it on her pad and if she licks it off, no big deal, good for

her internally as well.



Hugs to you and her,



Julie & Critters (Tayah, Mariah, Nikko, Tag, Shasta,etc.)

Wolf Creek Ranch

Soon to be:  Whispering Winds Wholistic Animal Sanctuary

mailto:wolfcreek1@earthlink.net

"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing

it!"

"If you can't find it within, you will never find it without."







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From herbalsoaplady@worldnet.att.net Wed Nov 08 19:17:17 2000

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Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 11:17:17 -0600

From: Bobbi Guerra <herbalsoaplady@worldnet.att.net>

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Bobbi Guerra <herbalsoaplady@worldnet.att.net>



I make and sell a line of soap and toiletries.  If anyone is interested

please CONTACT ME PRIVATELY.  Don't know the proper etiquette - but

think the list is not the place to discuss.



Best,

Bobbi Guerra

The Purple Sage

Fine Hand Crafted Soap & Toiletries



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From Bpzy@aol.com Wed Nov 08 20:00:59 2000

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Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] Herb Soap

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Bpzy@aol.com



I think that there are alot of us that make and sell herbal soaps!



Pat in Virginia

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From herbalsoaplady@worldnet.att.net Wed Nov 08 19:26:46 2000

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Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 11:26:46 -0600

From: Bobbi Guerra <herbalsoaplady@worldnet.att.net>

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Bobbi Guerra <herbalsoaplady@worldnet.att.net>



Met the proprietor of Dry Creek at the International this past June.

She is a gas!  Such vitality and energy.  I was shocked to see Shatoiya

with a book of photos at her booth in which she was trying to entice

someone to buy and take over her Dry Creek.  Have always heard what a

great place this was to study and learn at.



Shatoiya explained that it was just time for her to move on and she

wanted to do something else in her life.  Not sure if she indicated what

that was.



Has no one come forward to take over this place?  It sure looked great

in the photos.



Best,

Bobbi Guerra



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From oakridge@windo.missouri.org Wed Nov 08 21:14:07 2000

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From: "Jan Flood" <oakridge@windo.missouri.org>

To: <herbinfo@alist4u.net>

Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] Dry Creek

Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:14:07 -0600

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Posted To HerbInfo By: "Jan Flood" <oakridge@windo.missouri.org>



>>Has no one come forward to take over this place?  It sure looked great

in the photos.



Was a beautiful place, a great place to wander the paths and have lunch.

Had we been interested in moving back I would have been interested in it :)

Just returned home but never had a chance to talk to any of them about what

was happening.  Auburn is growing and expanding daily!  As with all of

us...time moves on and our lives change.



Jan Flood  jan@oakridgefarm.com





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From suesherbals@compuserve.com Thu Nov 09 04:42:36 2000

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Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 21:42:36 -0500

From: Sue Gage Jennings <suesherbals@compuserve.com>

Subject: [HerbInfo] Dry Creek-update

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Sue Gage Jennings <suesherbals@compuserve.com>



They sold Dry Creek to some women that are going to keep it as a  private

home.  The bulk herb business was sold to someone else I heard.  It was a

wonderful place and a big part of my life for the last 6 or so years.  We

used to camp there for the weekends when we had classes.  There was a Yurt

with a woodburning stove where we had most classes.  Shatioya is a

wonderful healer and I know she will continue to be involved in the

community one way or another.  I understand she has a new book coming out

in January about herb farms around the country.  Unfortunately, I did not

get to go to the closing party to say goodbye.  Our paths will cross again

I am sure.

Love, Light, and Healing Energy,   Sue

Sue's Herbals

in sunny Northern California

suesherbals@compuserve.com

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From suesherbals@compuserve.com Fri Nov 10 05:32:28 2000

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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:32:28 -0500

From: Sue Gage Jennings <suesherbals@compuserve.com>

Subject: [HerbInfo] Sam says yes-Comfrey Controversy Article

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Sue Gage Jennings <suesherbals@compuserve.com>



Sam said send!  Here it is!!!  

Love, Light, and Healing Energy,   Sue

Sue's Herbals

in sunny Northern California

suesherbals@compuserve.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------

The Comfrey Controversy

by Rosemary Gladstar



Over the past several years I've been increasingly aware of the controversy

surrounding the use of comfrey.  At first, I simply ignored it, but recent

articles and current information have prompted me to write a response. 

I've witnessed so much controversy over favorite herbs. Usually facts are

misleading and after several years of 'black listing' evidence creeps up

that redeems the deposed herb. Sassafras, one of my favorite tea drinking

herbs, was removed from the market because of the potential toxic effects

of the chemical safrole, (though it's estimated that modern beer is 10

times more carcinogenic than old fashion sassafras root beers banned by the

FDA for the purported carcinogen, safrole).  After thirty years on the

herbal black list, sassafras is in favor again and is showing up in tea

blends and formulas.  Pennyroyal has received deplorable press ever since

two young women each drank an ounce of the oil in the 70's and killed

themselves.  Cautious use of licorice is recommended because of potential

problems with elevated blood pressure, though most studies indicate that

licorice induced blood pressure is due to concentrated licorice extracts,

candy, and syrup, not the whole root.  Even slippery elm is listed as

potentially toxic and is not recommended for internal use.  It seems that

native women used the soft inner bark of the elm tree vaginally to induce

abortions.  With all this controversy it doesn't surprise me to see comfrey

come to 'trial'.  But what does surprise me is the neurosis that herbalists

are acquiring over this comfrey cast.  It's enough to give one an ulcer!



Are we getting lost in the backwash of current trends of herbalism that

lean towards science, scientific testing, and professionalism?  Are we

forgetting the value of centuries of recorded use? Is human testing

conducted over thousands of years no longer equal to laboratory scientific

testing?  Shouldn't 'empirical evidence' at least be considered, and not

forgotten in the rush of scientific studies and latest 'findings'?  Perhaps

it would be good to recall the rich historical documentation of comfrey,

which seems largely neglected in the rush to classify it as toxic.



Comfrey's been a favorite herb of most early herbalists and has been

written about for centuries in the famed old herbals.  Hildegard of Bingen,

famous visionary, saint and herbalist of the Benedictines, recommended it

for wounds in the 11th century.  Paracelsus,  Pliny, Gerard, Dioscoriedes,

and Culpepper were all fans of the herb and recommended it highly.  If

current information is correct, these famous healers were killing, not

healing, their patients.



It's no wonder comfrey's been extolled as one of the renowned healing herbs

of all times.  Its very name, Symphytum, means 'to heal'.  Rich

concentrations of Allantoin. a cell proliferant that stimulates the growth

of connective tissue and cartilage make comfrey a specific for broken

bones, torn cartilage, swellings, and bruises.  It contains tannin as well

as high

concentrations of mucilage in its chemical make-up so is not only soothing

but constrictive and healing for wounds, cuts. and tears.  It also contains

steroidal saponins making it particularly beneficial for reproductive and

hormonal imbalances.  Along with all its specific healing properties,

comfrey is also a delicious and nourishing food herb.  It: contains high

amounts of plant digestible calcium, iron. protein (up to 35%, seven times

more protein than soybeans), B vitamins and vitamin A, among other things. 

        



Down through the ages in many parts of the world comfrey's been recognized

as one of the great healing herbs and has maintained its scrupulous

reputation....right up to the present day.



In 1968 an independent Japanese scientist first reported finding

pyrrolizidine alkaloids, substances that are regarded as potentially

hepatoxic and carcinogenic, in the young leaves and roots of comfrey. 

Austrian studies confirmed the Japanese reports.  The news spread through

the scientific community and filtered into the herbal community like wild

fire.  What a furor those reports caused. A recent headline in one

newspaper states "Warning ! Comfrey Tea can Kill You"!  Once considered one

of the great all time healing herbs, comfrey now sits on trial as a

possible carcinogen and as a cause of hepatic veno-occlusive disease.



Pyrrolizidine alkaloids (PA's), a broad based chemical group including more

than 200 different alkaloids, are found in a widespread variety of

flowering plants throughout the world.  They seem to be most concentrated

in members of the Borage family, the Pea family, and some members of the

Aster family.  PA's first became a health concern in the mid 70's when,

during a severe drought several thousand Afghani villagers developed severe

liver impairment, many of whom died.  The source of the problem was traced

to PA infected wheat (from a Heliotrope species).  There have been a couple

of other epidemics of veno-occlusive disease occurring in third world

countries as a result of accidental and long term ingestion of PA infected

grain (traced to Crotalaria species). These cases prompted an investigation

of plants containing PA's. In the process, comfrey, the most popular and

widely used memberof the Borage family, was analyzed.  It is difficult to

draw any conclusive information, however, from the tests given the various

results reported.  As is so often the case with studies, there are enough

discrepancies and various "scientific findings" to satisfy what ever we'd

like to believe.



Though it is important to be open to the possible dangers of comfrey, it is

as important to sift through the information and misinformation and to form

opinions based on fact, rather than hysteria.  The truth of the matter is

that most plants reveal within their chemical blue print a wide variety of

constituents, many of them potentially harmful.  These chemicals form a

synergistic relationship with one another, often nullifying and or

strengthening certain aspects of one another.  Michael Tierra states in The

Way of Herbs, "Plants have a dynamically 

complex biochemistry.  In many instances this allows for small amounts of

substances, which when isolated and concentrated might otherwise be

poisonous, to be quite safe and harmless." The sum total of these hundreds

of chemicals determine the personality, or action of the plant. Judging a

plant's action based on one chemical is like judging a person by the fact

that their hair is brown.



Studies conducted in Washington found very minute amounts of pyrrolizidine

alkaloids in comfrey.  Some plants tested had none at all.  An independent

researcher in the U.S. found that of three samples tested for pyrrolizidine

alkaloids, one was negative, the second contained only trace amounts, and

the third contained one part per million equaling a sum total of an

infinitesimal amount of this alleged toxic substance.  In Steven Foster's

article in the February issue of Herb Companion he cites that 8 PA's have

been identified, though different varieties of Comfrey have various amounts

and only two of the most abundant PA's, according to him, are under

scrutiny.  It brings to mind the words of the highly respected Dr. Rudolp

Weiss  "Modern methods of chemical analysis are now so sophisticated,

working in nano units (l0 to the 9th power), that harmful substances will

be found almost anywhere, with the result that we feel constantly

threatened."  Dr. Weiss, by the way, seemed cautious about accepting

current research on comfrey toxicity.



It might be discerning while reviewing the PA containing factor of comfrey

to consider the rest of this plant's biochemical characteristics.  Comfrey

is rich in allantoin, a cell proliferant, calcium salts, and

mucopolysaccharides, all of which are very nutritious to the cell and may

serve to neutralize the cell inhibiting action of the pyrrolizidine

alkaloids.  It is also important to note that the pyrrolizidine alkaloids

found in comfrey are in a "N-oxide", or organic state, unlike those used in

laboratory studies.  These organic compounds are more likely to be degraded

when digested in the human body.



Another important issue to consider is the nature of the tests used to

determine the toxicity factor of comfrey.  Once identified, the alkaloids

were isolated and injected into laboratory animals in rather massive

amounts, far more than would normally be ingested.  Richard De Sylva states

in The Canadian Journal of Herbalism: "The original research (on the

presence of pyrrolizidine alkaloids in comfrey) was seriously flawed.  The

laboratory rats that developed tumors on the liver were only six weeks old.

At this age, quite a number of substances would be inappropriate for them

to ingest.  As well, the total amount of comfrey ingested formed 30-50% of

their basic diet.  This could be compared to human consumption of several

platefuls of comfrey daily.  This daily regimen did eventually cause tumors

to grow on their livers and proved only one of the standing laws of

science: that every substance or chemical is a poison if we consume enough

of it."  Or as Paracelsus said several hundred years ago, "All things are

poison and nothing is without poison.  It is the dosage that makes a thing

poisonous or not."  It might be wise to note when observing animal studies

that comfrey is used extensively as a fodder for dairy and beef cattle

throughout the Pacific Northwest with no problems.  In fact, farmers are

growing fields of comfrey because of the outstanding results in milk

production and the health of the herds.



Because of these laboratory findings, an attempt was made to collect case

histories of individuals who used comfrey and later developed liver

toxicity.  However, of the thousands of people who use comfrey worldwide,

only three somewhat questionable cases have been identified, none of which

conclusively point to comfrey as the culprit.  In 1984 there was a case of

veno-occlusive liver disease in a 49 year old woman who had been taking

Comfrey- Pepsin tablets for four months.  The American Journal of Medicine

reported a case of a woman who reportedly drank as many as I0 cups of

Comfrey tea a day and handfuls of tablets and developed veno-occlusive

liver disease.  The third reported case of veno-occlusive liver disease was

that of a 23 year old New Zealand man who died of liver failure reportedly

due to veno-occlusive liver disease.  He was said to have eaten four or

five steamed comfrey leaves every day for one to two weeks before he died.



This appears to constitute the complete 'hard evidence' for condemning

comfrey.  Not having access to the complete case histories on these

patients I can make no statement of whether, in fact, comfrey is the only

possible etiologic factor for the liver pathology.  Even if it is, three

cases out of tens of thousands, perhaps millions of people who use comfrey

is not statistically significant enough to ban its use. If our

pharmaceutical industry were subject to such standards, we would have no

drugs on the market at all. And very few herbs.



No matter what your position on this matter, this toxicity information

should be put in perspective.  Mark Blumenthal states, "The comfrey

incident might have looked different if it  had been put into context of a

toxicity scale. One such scale is the HERP index, which classifies the

cancer-causing potentials of various substances.  Extrapolating from the

HERP index, former U.S. Department of Agriculture botanist James Duke,

Ph.D., calculates that less than one-fifth an ounce of brown mustard is

twice as cancer causing as comfrey tea, which has roughly the same

cancer-causing potential as a peanut butter sandwich.  Wine is 144 times

more cancer causing than an equal amount of comfrey tea."



It is essential to always recall when reading test results that the whole

is always greater than the sum of the parts. As more and more tests are

being conducted on herbs and the chemicals isolated, it is important to be

open minded about the results; open minded to the fact that science is

fallible.  If a plant has been found safe and effective for a thousand

years of human use, it may be wise to question the validity and

applicability of the tests being used.  There is generally some

unidentified part of the plant in the form of another chemical or an innate

natural wisdom that allows the medicine, when taken as a whole, to function

in a safe and beneficial manner.



The comfrey controversy continues to rage.  Banned in Canada, comfrey

awaits its fate in the U.S.  Some herbalists continue to use comfrey basing

their faith on 'the empirical evidence of

the ages' and ignoring current data.  Most herbalists are taking a more

conservative discerning stand recommending small amounts of comfrey for

internal purposes (awaiting pending information) and continuing to use it

externally.  Some herbalists, caught up in the ferver of the tests, have

discontinued its use altogether and advocate others do so also.  As for me,

until the evidence and 'hard facts' are much more compelling, I will

continue to use comfrey judiciously for myself and my clients.  Meanwhile,

the Austrian company that conducted the original tests verified that the

tests were inconclusive and in Japan, where the alkaloids were first

discovered, doctors still continue to recommend comfrey for cirrhosis of

the liver.



Through its whole "trial" comfrey seems unabashed.  It continues to

dauntlessly grow. A large luxurious plant, its carefree attitude seems to

say, "if you doubt my safety, don't use me!  I've been around a long long

time.  I'll outlast the controversy".

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From PROCESSOR@prodigy.net Sat Nov 11 22:40:34 2000

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From: Choalayna <PROCESSOR@prodigy.net>

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Subject: [HerbInfo] Sandalwood, Red or Yellow?

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Choalayna <PROCESSOR@prodigy.net>



Can someone please give me the differences of the Red and Yellow

Sandalwood? And is it BOTH types that are experiencing the lowering

supply? What is the difference medicinally?



Choalayna

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From woodwitch@juno.com Sun Nov 12 02:46:33 2000

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To: herbinfo@alist4u.net

Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:46:33 -0700

Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] Sandalwood, Red or Yellow?

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Posted To HerbInfo By: woodwitch@juno.com



red sandalwood is used in medicinal preperations

yellow is usually for oils, incense, ritual



I am out of retail, now, so cannot tell you what is in short supply.  I

had no problem getting yellow sandalwood when I was a buyer.  

I do know that two years ago over 8,000 acres of patchouli burned, so

that is why the price and rarity has increased.

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From Cierce723@aol.com Wed Nov 15 21:29:31 2000

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To: herbinfo@alist4u.net

From: Cierce723@aol.com

Subject: Re: [HerbInfo] Sandalwood, Red or Yellow?

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Cierce723@aol.com



Hi, I have not been able to get red sandalwood for over 9 months, even

yellow

sandalwood has been harder to get, there was a problem with the Sandalwood,

drought or something and thats why I haven't been able to get it, I have a

retail business so I am pretty aware of the situation, I only have been able

to get the yellow sandalwood once this year, so that has been pretty hard to

get.  I hope it gets better because I get lots of orders for Red Sandalwood,

personally I like the yellow better I think it gives incense that extra

sweetness.



Chris



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From suesherbals@compuserve.com Fri Nov 17 02:42:00 2000

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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:42:00 -0500

From: Sue Gage Jennings <suesherbals@compuserve.com>

Subject: [HerbInfo] cold

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Posted To HerbInfo By: Sue Gage Jennings <suesherbals@compuserve.com>



Hello list members,

We are having very cold weather here in California.  Very unusual for

soooooooo much cold for so long.  We are having highs in the low low 50's. 

What an early winter.  I heard it was going to be an early cold one, but

the reality of it is something different.  My plants are not prepared

either.  I still have tomatoes on the vine - or did.  What's going on with

the rest of this list?

Love, Light, and Healing Energy,   Sue

Sue's Herbals

in sunny Northern California

suesherbals@compuserve.com

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