From diehlr@INDIANA.EDU Sat Dec 29 01:42:44 2001
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Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:42:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Bobbi Diehl <diehlr@INDIANA.EDU>
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Subject: Re: Happy New Year...
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OK Paulette, how do you make Lavender Punch? I'm dying to find out.

A happy and herby 2002 to all of you!

Bobbi Diehl
Bloomington, IN
zone 5/6




From aparker@shianet.org Fri Dec 28 22:28:38 2001
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From: "Paulette" <aparker@shianet.org>
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Christmas was so nice.  I hope everyone on our list had a safe and happy
holiday.

This Christmas I made lavender punch.  For New Years day I plan to have
rosemary bread & herb butter to go with our ham.



From aparker@shianet.org Tue Dec 18 06:43:44 2001
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From: "Paulette" <aparker@shianet.org>
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Subject: Re: Christmas coffee...
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 23:43:44 -0500
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This would be for a 10 cup coffee maker.  Actually, I use more cinnamon
that what I suggested to the list because I like more.
Also, a friend has added cocoa to her pot with the cinnamon.
So many variables, ... just check out all the different manufactured
coffee flavors.  It's just fun to make my own, and so simple.


From tmueller@bluegrass.net Mon Dec 17 12:50:56 2001
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To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
From: "Thomas Mueller" <tmueller@bluegrass.net>
Subject: Re: Christmas coffee...
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On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Paulette wrote:

> To make a pot of holiday cheer I put a 1/2 teasp. of
> cinnamon, 1/2 teasp.. of nutmeg on top of the ground
> coffee before brewing.   So nice!!!

How big is this pot, and how much of this does one person drink at one time.
Amount of nutmeg looks high.  Would this 1/2 tsp nutmeg be equivalent to
1/2 tsp mace, or is mace stronger?  Both have about the same sinus-unfriendly
smell in my experience.  I am not a coffee drinker, never liked the
roasted-coffee smell.

From diehlr@INDIANA.EDU Fri Dec 14 01:07:54 2001
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Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:07:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Bobbi Diehl <diehlr@INDIANA.EDU>
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Thanks, sounds great! Will try it at work tomorrow a.m.
Bobbi

On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Paulette wrote:

> To make a pot of holiday cheer I put a 1/2 teasp. of
> cinnamon, 1/2 teasp.. of nutmeg on top of the ground
> coffee before brewing.   So nice!!!
> 
> 
> 




From aparker@shianet.org Fri Dec 14 00:24:34 2001
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To make a pot of holiday cheer I put a 1/2 teasp. of
cinnamon, 1/2 teasp.. of nutmeg on top of the ground
coffee before brewing.   So nice!!!



From tmueller@bluegrass.net Sun Dec  9 11:55:01 2001
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Subject: Re: gooseberry
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  ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Evelyn Hussey" <khussey@ihug.co.nz>
  Subject: Re: gooseberry
  Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 19:45:57 +1300

> yes they do ripen off the vines - put them in a bowl with some apples and or
  bananas but dont let them get too soft or they ferment
  evelyn
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Bobbi Diehl <diehlr@INDIANA.EDU>
  To: <HERBS-L@orednet.org>
  Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 3:11 AM
  Subject: Re: gooseberry

  > Exactly right, I am trying to let them ripen on the bushes. Hate to use
  > netting as a friend does; birds can get trapped in there. I didn't know I
  > could pick them green. They don't ripen further once off the vine, do
  > they? Oh well, just add more sugar. Thanks for the suggestion.

My response:

Which gooseberry are you (Evelyn Hussey) referring to?  Description seems to
match kiwi fruit (Actinidia) better than gooseberries (Ribes).  Bobbi Diehl's
message seems to apply to gooseberries.

From ElizPlasick@AOL.COM Sat Dec  8 18:20:44 2001
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Subject: Re: OT/Animal in wall
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In a message dated 12/08/2001 08:46:19 AM, M.C.Gillie@excite.com writes:

<<  The house owners were blowing fuses
and smelling strange smells so he had checked it out and found the wires
were totally gnawed and bare in many places.  >>

This is so true. We rewired our old house because fuses were always blowing.

Major job.  Major expense. 

Yes.....we had that expense plus reroofing the old lovely house. Plus a 
furnace, new water heater..... replacing the bathroom floor and replacing the 
toilet and sink. Sad to say, we sold the house that I just loved.

My husbands workshop (separate from the house) had a squirrel and a mink in
it last winter.  

My daughter's husband had a wonderful rope hammock in the outdoor storage 
unit. The mice chewed up that hammock.

we know it was a mink because we successfully live trapped it in
February and had it identified at the Dept. of Lands & Forests.

Where do you live? Interesting....a mink


I do know that I wage war on them every fall.  

We also waged war on the critters and won the war but sold our lovely house 
much to my dismay.

Elizabeth

From M.C.Gillie@excite.com Sat Dec  8 15:45:26 2001
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Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 05:45:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Gillie <M.C.Gillie@excite.com>
To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
Subject: Re: OT/Animal in wall
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Been lurking for awhile but this one intrigued me.  We have had problems
with those unwanted winter guests for years while living in a mobile home. 
These things are impossible to get tight.  The more holes you fill and cover
the more open up!!  Anyway, we think ours are shrews or some other variety
of the mouse family, and not the field mouse.  These little creatures are
educated!  They don't fall for the usual mouse traps, or even the more
advanced vinyl ones.  We hear them and see their remnants around all winter
long.

My caution is on just letting them be.  I think SaraAnne that you were
extremely lucky.  We are currently renovating and adding on to a new-to-us
100+ year old house.  Our electrician came in one day with some pieces of
wires he had taken from another house.  The house owners were blowing fuses
and smelling strange smells so he had checked it out and found the wires
were totally gnawed and bare in many places.  He also found an electrocuted
mouse - hence the smell.  He had to rewire the whole house as the problem
was throughout.  Major job.  Major expense.  He said mice tend to do this
frequently, and it is a fire hazard.  Squirrels may not cause wire damage,(I
don't know) but the other damage they can do is unreal!  Real devastation,
and costly too.  

In the house we are working on we ripped out all the old wires cause they
were no longer approved, and I never took the time to look at them for mouse
damage.  However, we also ripped out all the insulation.  It was useless
because it had so many holes and tunnels burrowed in it from mice.  

My husbands workshop (separate from the house) had a squirrel and a mink in
it last winter.  There was no wood or wire damage there, but the mess!  and
the seeds!  and the pieces of dried rotten apple!  etc. that we found when
we went in this spring!  Believe it or not these two created enough dirt to
fill a whole packing box!  One of the pests (we think the squirrel) also got
into a new, full bale of R-20 fibreglas insulation and totally ruined that.
BTW, we know it was a mink because we successfully live trapped it in
February and had it identified at the Dept. of Lands & Forests.

While I have no advice on how to get rid of these pesky creatures, and they
are so cute to watch, I do know that I wage war on them every fall.  They
seem to really like dried dog food and peanut butter, so perhaps you could
try baiting a live trap with that.  We can borrow live traps here from the
Dept. of Lands and Forests, but I don't know where to get them in the USA. 

I also caution you on trapping them between the walls.  The really do stink!
Happy hunting - or co-habiting - whichever you choose.  My sympathies are
with you....



 
On Tue, 4 Dec 2001 09:30:22 EST, HERBS-L@orednet.org wrote:

>  Hi Bobbi;
>  
>  I don't have a solution, other than waiting for spring, just some
sympathy; 
>  when I was growing up in Connecticut, we lived in an old farm house
outside 
>  of town and in the winter, field mice would make their way into the walls
of 
>  our home.
>  At night, we, too, could hear the rustling about and gnawing on
"something."
>  Come spring they would disappear.
>  
>  We had some concerns about them possibly gnawing through wiring, creating
a 
>  fire hazard, but you know, that house has stood for more than 200 years
and 
>  is still standing today, 30 years after we lived in it and there have
been no 
>  fires.
>  
>  We took the passive approach and just let them be.... afraid of toxic 
>  chemicals for us and for our cat who might capture an infected mouse, eat
it 
>  and get sick himself.
>  
>  In retrospect, I guess we kind of enjoyed knowing we had these little 
>  "roommates" every winter.... =)
>  
>  Fondly,
>  SaraAnneC 
>





______________________________________________________________________________
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From snielsen@orednet.org Thu Dec  6 19:36:57 2001
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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:36:57 -0800 (PST)
From: "Susan L. Nielsen" <snielsen@orednet.org>
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Evelyn Hussey" <khussey@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Re: gooseberry
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 19:45:57 +1300

yes they do ripen off the vines - put them in a bowl with some apples and or
bananas but dont let them get too soft or they ferment
evelyn
----- Original Message -----
From: Bobbi Diehl <diehlr@INDIANA.EDU>
To: <HERBS-L@orednet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 3:11 AM
Subject: Re: gooseberry

> Exactly right, I am trying to let them ripen on the bushes. Hate to use
> netting as a friend does; birds can get trapped in there. I didn't know I
> could pick them green. They don't ripen further once off the vine, do
> they? Oh well, just add more sugar. Thanks for the suggestion.


From melauter@EARTHLINK.NET Wed Dec  5 19:58:27 2001
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Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 10:58:27 -0700
To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
From: Margaret Lauterbach <melauter@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Elderberry wine
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Kiwi fruit vines may be hardy, but that doesn't mean you're going to get 
fruit. They blossom early in the spring, so if your area gets late spring 
frosts, they may kill the fruit buds, and you won't get fruit. But your 
vine survives. That's winter hardy.  Margaret L

><<
>  Is this kiwi Actinidia chinensis or Actinidia arguta?  Actinidia arguta is
>much
>  more winter-hardy than A. chinensis.  Commercial kiwi fruits are picked well
>  before ripeness, so you have to buy well in advance of when you want to eat
>  them.  Having kiwi fruits ripen at the right time is tricky.
>   >>
>I live in northeast Ohio so, it's pretty winter hardy.  Don't know it's
>proper name.
>
>And this our life, exempt from public haunt,
>Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,
>Sermons in stones.
>                                              Shakespeare


From JoOhio1@AOL.COM Wed Dec  5 19:52:22 2001
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In a message dated 12/05/2001 3:58:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
tmueller@bluegrass.net writes:

<< 
 Is this kiwi Actinidia chinensis or Actinidia arguta?  Actinidia arguta is 
much
 more winter-hardy than A. chinensis.  Commercial kiwi fruits are picked well
 before ripeness, so you have to buy well in advance of when you want to eat
 them.  Having kiwi fruits ripen at the right time is tricky.
  >>
I live in northeast Ohio so, it's pretty winter hardy.  Don't know it's 
proper name.

And this our life, exempt from public haunt, 
Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks, 
Sermons in stones.
                                             Shakespeare

From diehlr@INDIANA.EDU Wed Dec  5 16:11:37 2001
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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:11:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Bobbi Diehl <diehlr@INDIANA.EDU>
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Exactly right, I am trying to let them ripen on the bushes. Hate to use
netting as a friend does; birds can get trapped in there. I didn't know I
could pick them green. They don't ripen further once off the vine, do
they? Oh well, just add more sugar. Thanks for the suggestion. 

I would love to have enough gooseberries to make wine with some day.
I'll never forget how marvelous it tasted!

Bobbi

On Wed, 5 Dec 2001, kris plunkett wrote:
> I wonder if Bobbi is having trouble with the birds because she is trying to 
> let them ripen on the bush instead of picking green. Just a thought :)
> 




From krisp65@hotmail.com Wed Dec  5 16:06:18 2001
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From: "kris plunkett" <krisp65@hotmail.com>
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From: "Thomas Mueller" <tmueller@bluegrass.net>
>Reply-To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
>To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
>Subject: Re: gooseberry
>Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 03:56:11 -0500 (EST)
>
>There is a gardener or mini-farmer near here who sometimes brings 
>gooseberries
>to the market in season.  When the berries are red, they are nice to eat 
>raw.

When my Grandmother would make her pies she used the green ones.

I wonder if Bobbi is having trouble with the birds because she is trying to 
let them ripen on the bush instead of picking green. Just a thought :)

Kris P  IL

_________________________________________________________________
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From ElizPlasick@AOL.COM Wed Dec  5 15:26:37 2001
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From: ElizPlasick@AOL.COM
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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 08:26:37 EST
Subject: Re: Elderberry wine
To: tmueller@bluegrass.net,
 HERBS-L@orednet.org
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I do not know about the sugars because I was a youngster and do not make 
wines.

Elizabeth

From jdingler@texas.net Wed Dec  5 14:25:39 2001
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Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 06:25:39 -0600
From: Jack Dingler <jdingler@texas.net>
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The yeast converts the sugar to alcohol.

Jack Dingler

Thomas Mueller wrote:
> 
> >This also brings back found memories of my mother. She would also make
> >dandelion wine.
> 
> >Elizabeth
> 
> Was it necessary to add a lot of sugar to feed the wine yeasts?

From tmueller@bluegrass.net Wed Dec  5 10:56:14 2001
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To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
From: "Thomas Mueller" <tmueller@bluegrass.net>
Subject: Re: Elderberry wine
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>Don't know about gooseberry, but homegrown kiwi is much better than what you
>get at the store, flavor-wise.  You have to have both male and female plants
>for it to fruit.  The resulting fruit is also much smaller than standard
>store-bought fare, with no fuzzy outer coating.  It's a worthy plant for the
>home garden and since you grow it like a vine, the required male/female
>plantings don't take up alot of room.

>Jo

Is this kiwi Actinidia chinensis or Actinidia arguta?  Actinidia arguta is much
more winter-hardy than A. chinensis.  Commercial kiwi fruits are picked well
before ripeness, so you have to buy well in advance of when you want to eat
them.  Having kiwi fruits ripen at the right time is tricky.


From tmueller@bluegrass.net Wed Dec  5 10:56:13 2001
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To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
From: "Thomas Mueller" <tmueller@bluegrass.net>
Subject: Re: Elderberry wine
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>This also brings back found memories of my mother. She would also make
>dandelion wine.

>Elizabeth

Was it necessary to add a lot of sugar to feed the wine yeasts?

From tmueller@bluegrass.net Wed Dec  5 10:56:11 2001
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There is a gardener or mini-farmer near here who sometimes brings gooseberries
to the market in season.  When the berries are red, they are nice to eat raw.

From Augustpr@AOL.COM Wed Dec  5 06:07:26 2001
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Subject: OT/Animal in wall
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We had a squirrel problem in our large old house and got an exterminator who 
had a long pole with a loop at the end. He was able to get the squirrels by 
the body and bring them out alive. He was really good. First he closed all 
possible entrances except one. He'd come to the house when he thought they'd 
be coming and going and waited with his pole by the last entrance. He got 
five out within a couple of days, but a sixth eluded him. Took awhile, but he 
finally got that one, too. This guy was basically on a mission for two weeks. 
Once they were all out, he closed up the last of the holes and we haven't had 
another problem - that was a year ago. 

Word to the wise: you don't want to close up all the holes until they are all 
out. As my co-worker would tell you, dead squirrels in the walls stink.

Renee

From ElizPlasick@AOL.COM Wed Dec  5 02:07:35 2001
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From: ElizPlasick@AOL.COM
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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 19:07:35 EST
Subject: Re: Seed Import Permits
To: melauter@EARTHLINK.NET,
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Anything by mail might be a problem because the post office is planning to 
radiate the mail. There was a warning about drugs delivered by mail. Film 
sent to processors was also a problem because it could ruin the film. I do 
wonder about seeds sent in the mail.

Elizabeth

From ElizPlasick@AOL.COM Wed Dec  5 01:36:36 2001
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From: ElizPlasick@AOL.COM
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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 18:36:36 EST
Subject: Re: gooseberry
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This is off subject but I saw something lovely at Sam's. It was a thyme plant 
that was shaped in the form of a small Christmas tree. It was wrapped in foil 
with a bow. What a lovely idea.

Elizabeth

From ElizPlasick@AOL.COM Wed Dec  5 01:32:49 2001
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From: ElizPlasick@AOL.COM
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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 18:32:49 EST
Subject: Re: Animal in wall
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Our old house had real problems with creatures that were unwanted guests. I 
would hear something in the walls. We finally got rid of them by reroofing 
the whole house. In the winter, there would be an occasional field mouse but 
traps took care of them. 

We had problems with bees that nested on the upper level of the house and a 
friend who was an exterminator went up the ladder at night when they were 
sleeping and gassed them. No problem with them after that.

There is some kind of invention that we plugged in the attic to rid the house 
of pests and that worked but not on the squirrels.

Elizabeth

From rdowns@ix.netcom.com Tue Dec  4 20:06:55 2001
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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 10:06:55 -0800
From: diane downs <rdowns@ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: echinacea roots
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hi,
i dug up my echinacea after 4 years. does
anyone know what it looks like
(color, size)? what does the crown look like?
can tincture be made out
of the fresh roots or do they have to be dried
first. anything else i
need to know about echineces tincturing
i immediately put the cut up root in a jar a
covered 1 1/2 inch of 75.5% (151 proof). i
have what i
think is the crown, a lot harder to cut up can
i add it to the alcohol also?
i have a lots of little eyes with roots, that
i will plant back. some of the information
that i have
read said to plant the crown. i can't see why
the eyes can't be planted also. has anyone
replanted
just the eyes and tincture the crown?
diane




From SaraAnneC@AOL.COM Tue Dec  4 16:30:22 2001
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From: SaraAnneC@AOL.COM
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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 09:30:22 EST
Subject: Re: OT/Animal in wall
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Hi Bobbi;

I don't have a solution, other than waiting for spring, just some sympathy; 
when I was growing up in Connecticut, we lived in an old farm house outside 
of town and in the winter, field mice would make their way into the walls of 
our home.
At night, we, too, could hear the rustling about and gnawing on "something."
Come spring they would disappear.

We had some concerns about them possibly gnawing through wiring, creating a 
fire hazard, but you know, that house has stood for more than 200 years and 
is still standing today, 30 years after we lived in it and there have been no 
fires.

We took the passive approach and just let them be.... afraid of toxic 
chemicals for us and for our cat who might capture an infected mouse, eat it 
and get sick himself.

In retrospect, I guess we kind of enjoyed knowing we had these little 
"roommates" every winter.... =)

Fondly,
SaraAnneC 


From krisp65@hotmail.com Tue Dec  4 16:25:54 2001
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From: "kris plunkett" <krisp65@hotmail.com>
To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
Subject: Re: gooseberry
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 08:25:54 -0600
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From: "Paulette" <aparker@shianet.org>
>Reply-To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
>To: <HERBS-L@orednet.org>
>Subject: Re: gooseberry
>Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 07:41:43 -0500
>
>I saw an ad for "thornless" gooseberry bushes.
>Might know, ....after I've had ours planted and established for
>years, ....
>

Isn't that always the way :)  Didn't even occur to me that there was 
thornless varities out there. But there is thornless varities of other 
berries.

I would like to get an ever bearing raspberry bush. My friend that is in 
Herb Guild with me has one and she was still getting nice berries in the 
fall.

Kris P  IL

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


From aparker@shianet.org Tue Dec  4 14:41:43 2001
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Subject: Re: gooseberry
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I saw an ad for "thornless" gooseberry bushes.
Might know, ....after I've had ours planted and established for
years, ....


From diehlr@INDIANA.EDU Tue Dec  4 14:18:40 2001
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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 07:18:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Bobbi Diehl <diehlr@INDIANA.EDU>
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Subject: Animal in wall
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Hope someone knowledgeable can advise us on our current problem. It's off
topic but an emergency. For the past several weeks we have occasionally
heard rustling noises in the bedroom wall (this is a 2-story house). That
is unsettling enough but for the past two or three nights I've heard the
sound of gnawing, as if wood is being chewed on. It usually happens around
midnight and sometimes again around 3. It looks as if several shingles are
loose in that corner of the roof so maybe the creature is finding a way in
at that point. The noises emanate from just one area of the wall.

The pest control man who came yesterday said there was no evidence of
attic infestation, but that it could very well be in the wall. He thinks
it is a squirrel or squirrels, and said he recommended gassing. With any
luck, he said, the animal would escape and not die inside the wall. My
husband is reluctant to do this and wants no more to do with this company.

I would like to just get the roof repaired, as long as we could be sure
that no creatures were sealed up inside the wall! If it is diurnal, maybe
it leaves in the morning and comes back at night, so that we could take
care of the problem this way. However, if it is nocturnal, we would be
in trouble!

Has anyone had this experience? Advice is welcome! (you can send privately
to me rather than clutter up the list.) Thanks much.

Bobbi



From snielsen@orednet.org Mon Dec  3 19:55:07 2001
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From: "Susan L. Nielsen" <snielsen@orednet.org>
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Subject: Re: gooseberry
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On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Henriette Kress wrote:

> > And another warning, I rarely get a "harvest" of more than one or two
> > berries a year from my gooseberry bush, because the birds INVARIABLY beat
> > me to it despite my resolutions to be more alert next year. I certainly
> 
> You have red-berried variety, right? Get a yellow one, they're left more or less
> in peace.

Also, gooseberry plants aren't all that huge that you can't rig up a
net or screen to protect them. The mesh, whatever it is, has to be
open enough to allow pollination insects to enter, small enough to
keep birds from tangling themselves. If you use "bird netting" be
aware that loose netting can really snarl a bird's feet. If you can
tack it to a frame of some kind (tripods are pretty easy to erect),
it won't be so likely to act as a trap.

As to the thorns, it helps if you can keep the bushes pruned and open.
OTOH, a little suffering to get at the fruit only makes the pie
sweeter! That's a helpful thought if, like me, you didn't get around
to pruning...

Susan
--
Susan Nielsen, Shambles Workshops      		|"...Gently down the  
Beavercreek, OR, USA -- snielsen@orednet.org  	|stream..." -- Anon.
----------------------------------------------------------------------	
Purveyors of fine honey, Jacob Sheep, Ashford spinning products
			and Interweave books


From hetta@saunalahti.fi Mon Dec  3 19:18:32 2001
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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>
To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
Subject: Re: gooseberry
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 19:18:32 +0200
Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia
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Bobbi Diehl <diehlr@INDIANA.EDU> wrote to HERBS-L@orednet.org:

> And another warning, I rarely get a "harvest" of more than one or two
> berries a year from my gooseberry bush, because the birds INVARIABLY beat
> me to it despite my resolutions to be more alert next year. I certainly

You have red-berried variety, right? Get a yellow one, they're left more or less
in peace.

Cheers
Henriette, who plants gooseberries with tasty berries, not based on colors,
thorns or whatnots.

-- 
hetta@saunalahti.fi          Henriette Kress           Helsinki, Finland   
Almost 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, old texts, articles, links), plus
pictures, zipped archives, the works, at: http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed

From melauter@EARTHLINK.NET Mon Dec  3 18:33:01 2001
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Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:33:01 -0700
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From: Margaret Lauterbach <melauter@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: gooseberry
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Some varieties are thornless. Margaret L


>Missed the beginning of this thread because I thought it was all on 
>elderberry wine, and I don't drink wine :) so deleted all except for this one.
>
>My Grandmother had gooseberry bushes. She would make wonderful tart pies 
>with them.
>
>Do be forewarned for those that would like to grow gooseberries, they do 
>have thorns.
>
>Kris P  IL


From diehlr@INDIANA.EDU Mon Dec  3 17:29:52 2001
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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 10:29:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Bobbi Diehl <diehlr@INDIANA.EDU>
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And another warning, I rarely get a "harvest" of more than one or two
berries a year from my gooseberry bush, because the birds INVARIABLY beat
me to it despite my resolutions to be more alert next year. I certainly
don't get enough to make wine with! I rationalize that I am helping to
feed the birds (they absolutely adore these berries), and the bush is no
trouble to have in the yard other than taking up space. 

Bobbi Diehl
Bloomington, IN
zone 5/6

On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, kris plunkett wrote:
> Do be forewarned for those that would like to grow gooseberries, they do 
> have thorns.




From melauter@EARTHLINK.NET Mon Dec  3 17:26:30 2001
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Subject: Re: Elderberry wine
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Kiwis once were called Australian gooseberries, but they're quite different 
fruits. For this recipe, do you peel the brown fuzzies off the 
kiwis?  Thanks, Margaret L

>Maybe you all knew that Kiwis are the same as Gooseberries, so I found an
>old recipe for Gooseberry Wine and you could equally make it with Kiwis -
>give it a whirl!
>
>2 Kg. Kiwis
>50 grams Ginger Root
>750 grams sugar
>1 Campden Tablet
>1 Vitamin ?C' tablet
> tsp Yeast Nutrient
>1/4 tsp Pectic Enzyme
>1 Pkt Yeast
>Boil kiwis and ginger root for 1 hour in 3 litres of water. Strain juice and
>dissolve sugar in it. Pour juice into a 1 gall jug. Allow to cool, add
>campden tablet, vitamin C, yeast nutrient, pectic enzyme and yeast - stir
>well. Top up gallon jug to the neck, with water, attach bung and airlock.
>Ferment for 10 days then siphon into another jug. Add finings (1/2 tsp mixed
>Bentonite or whatever else you have), top up again to the same level, place
>in a cool spot to clear (2 weeks). Repeat the clarifying process if
>necessary. Bottle..
>
>
>Marcia
>Get a real job, be a housewife
>
>Outgoing mail is Certified Virus Free.
>F-Secure protected
>McAffee protected
>Norton protected


From krisp65@hotmail.com Mon Dec  3 16:10:56 2001
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From: "kris plunkett" <krisp65@hotmail.com>
To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
Subject: gooseberry
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 08:10:56 -0600
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>
>Don't know about gooseberry,

Missed the beginning of this thread because I thought it was all on 
elderberry wine, and I don't drink wine :) so deleted all except for this 
one.

My Grandmother had gooseberry bushes. She would make wonderful tart pies 
with them.

Do be forewarned for those that would like to grow gooseberries, they do 
have thorns.

Kris P  IL

_________________________________________________________________
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From: ElizPlasick@AOL.COM
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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:00:45 EST
Subject: Re: Elderberry wine
To: diehlr@INDIANA.EDU,
 HERBS-L@orednet.org
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In a message dated 12/02/2001 05:45:58 PM, diehlr@INDIANA.EDU writes:

<< dandelion wine. >>

This also brings back found memories of my mother. She would also make 
dandelion wine.

Elizabeth

From melauter@EARTHLINK.NET Mon Dec  3 15:31:25 2001
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Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 06:31:25 -0700
To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
From: Margaret Lauterbach <melauter@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Seed Import Permits
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1011202131114.10719B-100000@compass.oregonvo
 s.net>
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There seems to be some leeway, though, because I've swapped Capsicum seeds 
with a fellow in NZ, and the contents of the package were officially 
labeled on the outside by the US Post Office.  We've had a requirement for 
phytosanitary certificates for imported plant materials for many years, and 
I have no objection to that.  I object to the requirement of certificates 
for seeds, and frankly, do wonder at how the researchers working on 
pharmaceutical properties of rain forest plants are getting the materials 
in. If Mexico doesn't have the ability to issue phyto certificates, you can 
bet Costa Rica, Brazil, etc., don't either.  Margaret L


>Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 01:44:13 -0800
From: "Evelyn Hussey" <khussey@ihug.co.nz>
>Subject: Re: Seed Import Permits
>
>this message is of interest in all parts of the world;  here in New Zealand
>it has been unlawful for many years to import seeds or plants that have not
>been approved or through quarantine.  this is to keep out any bugs or
>diseases that we do not already have from imports legal or otherwise.  It is
>also illegal to bring in plant material in any form without a permit.  In
>Australia you cannot take fruit from one state to the next for the same
>reasons - all seems very logical and sensible when you take it from a bio
>security view
>evelyn


From JoOhio1@AOL.COM Mon Dec  3 15:04:23 2001
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From: JoOhio1@AOL.COM
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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 08:04:23 EST
Subject: kiwi
To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
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Don't know about gooseberry, but homegrown kiwi is much better than what you 
get at the store, flavor-wise.  You have to have both male and female plants 
for it to fruit.  The resulting fruit is also much smaller than standard 
store-bought fare, with no fuzzy outer coating.  It's a worthy plant for the 
home garden and since you grow it like a vine, the required male/female 
plantings don't take up alot of room.

Jo

And this our life, exempt from public haunt, 
Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks, 
Sermons in stones.
                                             Shakespeare

From diehlr@INDIANA.EDU Mon Dec  3 13:44:19 2001
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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 06:44:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Bobbi Diehl <diehlr@INDIANA.EDU>
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To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
Subject: Re: Elderberry wine
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It may be called Chinese gooseberry but that doesn't mean it IS a
gooseberry. Common names are often very unreliable as to scientific
information. It has always bothered me that the American robin is called a
robin simply because some idiot thought the bird resembled the English
robin, which is totally unrelated to it. It does a disservice to both
creatures.

Bobbi Diehl
Bloomington, IN
zone 5/6

> Ah, but you don't take into account that kiwifruit sometimes is called Chinese
> gooseberry.
> 



From hetta@saunalahti.fi Mon Dec  3 10:56:09 2001
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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>
To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
Subject: Re: Elderberry wine
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 10:56:09 +0200
Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia
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References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1011202174256.7582B-100000@kate.ucs.indiana.edu> <012501c17b89$2c0efbc0$35db3dd8@j6k0c4> <3C0B308A.982BA5D0@ckt.net>
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Sibyl Smirl <polycarpa@ckt.net> wrote to HERBS-L@orednet.org:

> M Klaas wrote:
> > 
> > Maybe you all knew that Kiwis are the same as Gooseberries,
> 
> I don't know it, and I don't believe it.
> 
> http://www.crfg.org/pubs/ff/gooseberry.html
> (much more than I copied at the URL.)
> 
> http://www.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/mod03/03900035.html
> (Again, much more at URL)

Ah, but you don't take into account that kiwifruit sometimes is called Chinese
gooseberry.

Cheers
Henriette

-- 
hetta@saunalahti.fi          Henriette Kress           Helsinki, Finland   
Almost 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, old texts, articles, links), plus
pictures, zipped archives, the works, at: http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed

From polycarpa@ckt.net Mon Dec  3 09:58:17 2001
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References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1011202174256.7582B-100000@kate.ucs.indiana.edu> <012501c17b89$2c0efbc0$35db3dd8@j6k0c4>
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M Klaas wrote:
> 
> Maybe you all knew that Kiwis are the same as Gooseberries,

I don't know it, and I don't believe it.

http://www.crfg.org/pubs/ff/gooseberry.html
(much more than I copied at the URL.)

GOOSEBERRY

Ribes spp.

Saxifragaceae

Common Names: Gooseberry (English), Stachelbeere (German), Groseille a Maquereaux
(French), Uva Spina (Italian), Stekbes (Flemish). 

Species: American Gooseberry (Ribes hirtellum), European Gooseberry
(R. grossularia). 

Related Species: Currant (Ribes rubrum, R. petraeum, R. sativum),
Black Currant (R.
nigrum, R. ussuriense), Buffalo Currant (R. aureum). 

Origin: Gooseberries are derived mostly from two species: the European
gooseberry (Ribes
grossularia), native to the Caucasus Mountains and North Africa; and
the American
gooseberry (R. hirtellum), native to northeastern and north-central
United States and adjacent
parts of Canada. So-called European cultivars are pure species, but
virtually all so-call
American cultivars also have European genes. 


http://www.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/mod03/03900035.html
(Again, much more at URL)

KIWI FRUIT 



Kiwi is an exotic and tasty fruit that is quickly catching 
on in the United States, although it is far from a new 
discovery. Two types of Kiwi fruit are known: Actinidia 
arguta and Actinidia chinensis, the latter of which are the 
fruits sold in the markets and grown in warmer areas, such 
as California and Australia. Actinidia arguta is known as 
bower actinidia, tara vine, and yangtao, and is definitely 
not a new landscape plant. However, it is unclear whether a 
new fruiting strain of A. arguta has been promoted recently 
or whether A. arguta is being considered a new strain of A. 
chinensis.

From SaraAnneC@AOL.COM Mon Dec  3 03:50:37 2001
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From: SaraAnneC@AOL.COM
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Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:50:37 EST
Subject: Re: Elderberry wine
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In a message dated 12/02/2001 5:19:43 PM Central Standard Time, 
msklaas@ozarkisp.net writes:

<< Maybe you all knew that Kiwis are the same as Gooseberries, >>

Hi Marcia;

Where I live, in Southwest Indiana, there grows a woody shrub that bears pale 
green berries, about1/2-inch in diameter, with nearly transparent skins that 
are known as and sold as gooseberries.

Is this a regional thing? I don't have the Latin name of the gooseberry bush 
I am familiar with....  the only kiwis I ever see are at the grocery store, 
egg sized with brown and slightly "hairy" skins.

...although I imagine one could make wine out of either.....

Fondly,
SaraAnneC

From msklaas@ozarkisp.net Mon Dec  3 01:29:21 2001
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Subject: Re: Elderberry wine
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 17:29:21 -0600
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Maybe you all knew that Kiwis are the same as Gooseberries, so I found an
old recipe for Gooseberry Wine and you could equally make it with Kiwis -
give it a whirl!

2 Kg. Kiwis
50 grams Ginger Root
750 grams sugar
1 Campden Tablet
1 Vitamin ?C' tablet
 tsp Yeast Nutrient
1/4 tsp Pectic Enzyme
1 Pkt Yeast
Boil kiwis and ginger root for 1 hour in 3 litres of water. Strain juice and
dissolve sugar in it. Pour juice into a 1 gall jug. Allow to cool, add
campden tablet, vitamin C, yeast nutrient, pectic enzyme and yeast - stir
well. Top up gallon jug to the neck, with water, attach bung and airlock.
Ferment for 10 days then siphon into another jug. Add finings (1/2 tsp mixed
Bentonite or whatever else you have), top up again to the same level, place
in a cool spot to clear (2 weeks). Repeat the clarifying process if
necessary. Bottle..


Marcia
Get a real job, be a housewife

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From msklaas@ozarkisp.net Mon Dec  3 01:11:43 2001
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Subject: Re: Elderberry wine
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http://www.mountbethelwinery.com/pricelst.htm

Mount Bethel here in the ozark makes and sales Elderberry wine online.

Marcia
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From msklaas@ozarkisp.net Mon Dec  3 01:08:55 2001
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My son was about 4 or 5 years old and we were visiting my mother and we
couldn't find David (now 37 and would hate me for telling this story).  We
finally found him UNDER the elderberry bush (huge bush about 10 feet across)
eating elderberrys -- his face was covered with juice and to this day loves
elderberry's right off the bush (UGH!).

Maybe that is why he is a wine connoisseur today.

Marcia
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From diehlr@INDIANA.EDU Mon Dec  3 00:45:34 2001
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From: Bobbi Diehl <diehlr@INDIANA.EDU>
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I have tasted gooseberry wine (in England) and it is absolutely
delightful. And I hear elderberry wine is super, as is dandelion wine.
Wish there was some place that sold these concoctions! Or else that I had
time to make wine.

As for wine from grapes, that is a whole nother thing, IMHO. I wouldn't
even attempt it.

Bobbi Diehl
Bloomington, IN 
z5/6

On Sun, 2 Dec 2001 SaraAnneC@AOL.COM wrote:
> I, too, have fond memoires of elderberry wine and the woman, now deceased, 
> who taught me how to make it and other "wild wines."


From SaraAnneC@AOL.COM Mon Dec  3 00:35:17 2001
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From: SaraAnneC@AOL.COM
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Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 17:35:17 EST
Subject: Re: Elder
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In a message dated 12/02/2001 1:58:20 PM Central Standard Time, 
ElizPlasick@AOL.COM writes:

<< My fondest memories of my mother was her talent for making wines of which 
one 
 was elderberry wine. As a youngster, I would go out in the woods wherever we 
 lived and picked elderberries. >>

Hi Elizabeth;

I, too, have fond memoires of elderberry wine and the woman, now deceased, 
who taught me how to make it and other "wild wines."
(I have never made wine from grapes, LOL).
I gave up the hobby about 20 years ago (living with an alcoholic now-ex 
husband kind of took the joy out of the activity).
BUT, I should like to tell that there is a group newly formed at Yahoogroups 
called "wildwines" that you might want to look into if you are pondering the 
hobby for yourself. -- lots of recipes, sources for supplies and good old 
fashioned common sense for people of all levels of expertise.
I am making plans and clearing space to start wine making again this spring.

Fondly,
SaraAnneC

From snielsen@orednet.org Sun Dec  2 23:13:05 2001
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Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 13:13:05 -0800 (PST)
From: "Susan L. Nielsen" <snielsen@orednet.org>
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 01:44:13 -0800
From: "Evelyn Hussey" <khussey@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Seed Import Permits

this message is of interest in all parts of the world;  here in New Zealand
it has been unlawful for many years to import seeds or plants that have not
been approved or through quarantine.  this is to keep out any bugs or
diseases that we do not already have from imports legal or otherwise.  It is
also illegal to bring in plant material in any form without a permit.  In
Australia you cannot take fruit from one state to the next for the same
reasons - all seems very logical and sensible when you take it from a bio
security view
evelyn
----- Original Message -----

> > Unfortunately, Janice, this is true.  USDA, in their idiocy, plan on
> > starting to implement a regulation that has been on the books for
> > ages, but never enforced, that requires phyto certificates for all
> > seed imported into the US.  Enforcement slated to start Jan. 22,
> > 2002, unless, by some miracle, common sense prevails.


From ElizPlasick@AOL.COM Sun Dec  2 22:01:42 2001
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Subject: Re: Drying herbs
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My huge sage in its own pot on my patio still has its leaves and it is more 
like a small tree. I do appreiciate all the information of sage. Thanks All.

Elizabeth

From ElizPlasick@AOL.COM Sun Dec  2 21:56:14 2001
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Subject: Re: Elder
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My fondest memories of my mother was her talent for making wines of which one 
was elderberry wine. As a youngster, I would go out in the woods wherever we 
lived and picked elderberries.

Elizabeth

From polycarpa@ckt.net Sun Dec  2 20:17:10 2001
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Subject: Re: Drying herbs
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1011202094914.42B-100000@kate.ucs.indiana.edu>
	 <003801c17b4b$ae4c8aa0$01b50e3f@s0022821932> <4.3.1.2.20011202105030.00c5a3c0@mail.earthlink.net>
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There might be a tinge of purple in the leaves, I have trouble
visualizing the exact shade of gray-green.  They aren't killed by
winter, but go dormant, as I said, they're very frost hardy.  I have
had plants of the gold-mottled sort, but as you say, they weren't
hardy, and the tricolor, which I think were annuals, though I bought
plants.  For my main sage, I usually start from seed, garden seed that
says "sage", and it blooms blue and lasts me through several years. 
Eventually I have too few plants, though there's some self-seeding,
and start over.  If I were more attentive to moving the volunteers out
of the crowding and shadow of the old ones, and nursing them, I'd
probably never have to buy seed again.

I'm in zone 6 by the map, more like the Ozarks than anything else,
though definitely border between Ozark and prairie--nothing like
West-Central New Mexico, or West-Northern Oklahoma, that I'm
acquainted with, and a lot of Zone 6 advice doesn't seem to fit with
my little place, so I tend to ignore zones most of the time.

Margaret Lauterbach wrote:
> 
> My sages keep their leaves all winter, here in zone 5/6.  I think Salvia
> officinalis has also overwintered when we had a zone 4 winter.  Do your
> "deciduous" sages have purple tinged leaves?  Gold mottled leaves? Those
> sages are less hardy. Margaret L
> 
> > >
> > > my sage, here in Michigan doesn't stay "green/gray" during the winter.
> > > It loses it's leaves, ... and then sprouts in spring.
> >
> >Same here in SE Kansas, with most winters _very_ mild compared to
> >Michigan.  The mildest winters might see a few living leaves left on
> >the plant all winter, but for sure not enough for even one pot of tea
> >in the whole bed.  The first few frosts don't send it dormant, but a
> >spell of cold days does.

From melauter@EARTHLINK.NET Sun Dec  2 19:52:44 2001
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Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:52:44 -0700
To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
From: Margaret Lauterbach <melauter@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Drying herbs
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References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1011202094914.42B-100000@kate.ucs.indiana.edu>
 <003801c17b4b$ae4c8aa0$01b50e3f@s0022821932>
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My sages keep their leaves all winter, here in zone 5/6.  I think Salvia 
officinalis has also overwintered when we had a zone 4 winter.  Do your 
"deciduous" sages have purple tinged leaves?  Gold mottled leaves? Those 
sages are less hardy. Margaret L


> >
> > my sage, here in Michigan doesn't stay "green/gray" during the winter.
> > It loses it's leaves, ... and then sprouts in spring.
>
>Same here in SE Kansas, with most winters _very_ mild compared to
>Michigan.  The mildest winters might see a few living leaves left on
>the plant all winter, but for sure not enough for even one pot of tea
>in the whole bed.  The first few frosts don't send it dormant, but a
>spell of cold days does.


From polycarpa@ckt.net Sun Dec  2 19:36:34 2001
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Paulette wrote:
> 
> my sage, here in Michigan doesn't stay "green/gray" during the winter.
> It loses it's leaves, ... and then sprouts in spring.

Same here in SE Kansas, with most winters _very_ mild compared to
Michigan.  The mildest winters might see a few living leaves left on
the plant all winter, but for sure not enough for even one pot of tea
in the whole bed.  The first few frosts don't send it dormant, but a
spell of cold days does.

From melauter@EARTHLINK.NET Sun Dec  2 19:20:41 2001
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Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:20:41 -0700
To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
From: Margaret Lauterbach <melauter@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Drying herbs
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Perhaps I was on a different list when I talked about this. Several years 
ago, I bought a pink-flowered culinary sage that I thought was named Town 
of (or City of) Bath.  Nobody had ever heard about it.  I finally found my 
receipt, and I bought it from Wrenwood of Berkeley Springs, WV.  I don't 
have the catalog or address any more, but you can find Wrenwood through a 
Google search.  It's quite a nice plant, but does require some tending, to 
remove flower stalks. I don't recall having to do that with 
purple-flowering sage.  Margaret L


>Margaret, thanks. That makes sense. Tell me about a Town (or City) of Bath
>sage plant. Never heard of. Neat name.
>
>Bobbi


From aparker@shianet.org Sun Dec  2 18:08:59 2001
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my sage, here in Michigan doesn't stay "green/gray" during the winter.
It loses it's leaves, ... and then sprouts in spring.


From diehlr@INDIANA.EDU Sun Dec  2 17:52:55 2001
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Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 10:52:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Bobbi Diehl <diehlr@INDIANA.EDU>
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Margaret, thanks. That makes sense. Tell me about a Town (or City) of Bath
sage plant. Never heard of. Neat name. 

Bobbi

On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Margaret Lauterbach wrote:

> To use fresh herbs in place of dried, you have to use three to five times 
> the amount you'd use of dried herbs.  Apparently drying concentrates the 
> aroma and flavor  Bobbi, are you going to try to get a Town (or City) of 
> Bath sage plant?  It's long-lived, perhaps longer lived than the Salvia 
> officinalis, and it tends to spread out. I have mine on a berm just outside 
> the greenhouse.  Nice plant, though. Margaret L
> 

 


From melauter@EARTHLINK.NET Sun Dec  2 17:32:56 2001
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To use fresh herbs in place of dried, you have to use three to five times 
the amount you'd use of dried herbs.  Apparently drying concentrates the 
aroma and flavor  Bobbi, are you going to try to get a Town (or City) of 
Bath sage plant?  It's long-lived, perhaps longer lived than the Salvia 
officinalis, and it tends to spread out. I have mine on a berm just outside 
the greenhouse.  Nice plant, though. Margaret L



>I seem to be full of questions for you all. Was reading about sage in my
>favorite herb book, and the author says sage is evergreen. Just checked my
>plant (this is the first year I've grown herbs seriously) and it is indeed
>evergreen [or evergray. A beautiful plant!].) She then gives several
>recipes one of which is for an herbal tea made with dried sage leaves. So
>my question is, why dry this herb at all when fresh leaves can be
>harvested year-round? Is there something that happens to the dry leaves
>that makes them more medicinal, or what? Couldn't this tea be made with
>fresh leaves just as well, maybe better?
>
>Bobbi Diehl
>Bloomington, IN
>zone 5/6


From diehlr@INDIANA.EDU Sun Dec  2 16:54:00 2001
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I seem to be full of questions for you all. Was reading about sage in my
favorite herb book, and the author says sage is evergreen. Just checked my
plant (this is the first year I've grown herbs seriously) and it is indeed
evergreen [or evergray. A beautiful plant!].) She then gives several
recipes one of which is for an herbal tea made with dried sage leaves. So
my question is, why dry this herb at all when fresh leaves can be
harvested year-round? Is there something that happens to the dry leaves
that makes them more medicinal, or what? Couldn't this tea be made with
fresh leaves just as well, maybe better?

Bobbi Diehl
Bloomington, IN
zone 5/6



From diehlr@INDIANA.EDU Sun Dec  2 14:54:35 2001
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From: Bobbi Diehl <diehlr@INDIANA.EDU>
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Many thanks to those who have contributed. I have collected a few more
tidbits, which I'll share. I'm hoping more people will chime in. In
England, there is a superstition that the weather will not change as long
as the elder is blooming. In Germany, men used to tip their hats to an
elder in bloom when they walked by. In various parts of the world, elder
switches are used to whip the trunks of fruit trees. This is supposed to
prevent insect infestation of the fruit. A tea can be made of elder leaves
and water which if sprayed on roses will prevent aphids.  In the vegetable
garden, twigs of elder stuck into your row of beans will deter insects
that prey upon beans. And I seem to remember reading that the root of
elder is a slug deterrent, so if you plant elderberry bushes in your hosta
beds slugs will not bother them--but I can't find this source at the
moment.

Bobbi Diehl




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------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C17AB3.84498570
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Actually Elderberry is of great use this time of year.  The berries are =
one of the best cures for the flu as they have strong antiviral =
properties.  Elderberry wine really was medicinal!  There is a syrup =
called Sambucol made by Natures Way that I always take at the first sign =
of a flu or a cold - and it works well.  Dr. Andrew Weil, the Harvard =
educated M.D. who heads the College of Integrative Medicine at the =
University of Arizona recommends Elderberry tincture or capsules, or the =
syrup for flu and colds.  All are available at most health food stores. =
I have the article from his newsletter at work to show customers when =
they ask about it.  You may be able to find information about it's =
medicinal uses on his website.  =
http://www.drweil.com/app/cda/drw_cda.php =20
I also located a reasearch article about the medicinal properties =
http://www.sambucol.com/research/research_head.gif
Eclectic Institute makes an Elderberry/Larix capsule that is great also =
- Larix is from the Western Larch and is similar in chemistry to =
Echinacea but is much stronger.
Cara

------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C17AB3.84498570
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=3D"Palatino Linotype" size=3D4>Actually Elderberry =
is of great=20
use this time of year.&nbsp; The berries are one of the best cures for =
the flu=20
as they have strong antiviral properties.&nbsp; Elderberry wine really =
was=20
medicinal! &nbsp;There is a syrup called Sambucol made by Natures Way =
that I=20
always take at the first sign of a flu or a cold - and it works =
well.&nbsp; Dr.=20
Andrew Weil, the Harvard educated M.D. who heads the College of =
Integrative=20
Medicine at the University of Arizona recommends Elderberry tincture or=20
capsules, or the syrup for flu and colds.&nbsp; All are available at =
most health=20
food stores. I have the article from his newsletter at work to show =
customers=20
when they ask about it.&nbsp; You may be able to find information about =
it's=20
medicinal uses on his website.&nbsp; <A=20
href=3D"http://www.drweil.com/app/cda/drw_cda.php">http://www.drweil.com/=
app/cda/drw_cda.php</A>&nbsp;=20
</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=3D"Palatino Linotype" size=3D4>I also located a =
reasearch=20
article about the medicinal properties <A=20
href=3D"http://www.sambucol.com/research/research_head.gif">http://www.sa=
mbucol.com/research/research_head.gif</A></FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=3D"Palatino Linotype" size=3D4>Eclectic Institute =
makes an=20
Elderberry/Larix capsule that is great also - Larix is from the Western =
Larch=20
and is similar in chemistry to Echinacea but is much =
stronger.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=3D"Palatino Linotype"=20
size=3D4>Cara</FONT></EM></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C17AB3.84498570--



From snielsen@orednet.org Sun Dec  2 04:19:36 2001
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 11:58:32 -0800
From: "J. P. Taylor" <pimleyta@cncnet.com>
Subject: Re: Elder

Bobbi:  Probably you have received much info re elder by now, but I found 
in Rodale's Illustrated Encyclopedia of Herbs, copyright 1987, several 
pages & illustrations about Sambucus (Elderberry) which I have condensed - 
One of the human race's earliest plant companions (found in Stone Age 
sites), the elderberry has developed reputations for great powers of good - 
as well as powers of evil.   In parts of the world no prudent carpenter 
would make a cradle of elderberry wood for fear of bringing harm to the 
baby. Children have become sick from playing with elderberry whistles or 
blowguns.
   For centuries the plant has had the reputation of healing the body, but 
in the elderberry's golden age, it made music to heal the spirit.  The 
generic name Sambucus may come from the Greek sambuke, a musical 
instrument, supposedly made from elderberry wood.   I think that sounds 
like a bit of a contradiction if children got sick from whistles or 
blowguns or cradles were not made from elderberry for fear of harming 
children.  Even though the sambuke is a stringed musical instrument, not 
blown, just handling it might be hazardous to some sensitive 
persons.  Probably some of this is very old myth.
   The info also said that there was "a jumble of conflicting currents."  - 
"It provided the wood for Christ's cross; was the home of the goddess 
Freya.  If seen in a dream, it meant illness was on the way.  It could ward 
off witches if gathered on the last day of April and put on the windows and 
doors of houses;  it was very attractive to witches and should be avoided 
after dark."
   Elderberries were used for dying hair black, showing berries just at the 
right time to signal the beginning of wheat sowing.  The Shakers used it as 
a medicinal herb.  The wood of old stems, hard and fine grained, was prized 
by the makers of mathematical instruments.
   "Elderberry shrubs are not the place for amateur herbal enthusiasts to 
experiment. They contain cyanogenic glucosides, substances that release 
cyanide, and an unidentified cathartic, found primarily in the leaves and 
roots of some species.  Ripe, cooked berries are harmless, the flowers are 
probably non toxic (I guess so if you can make tea with them), and limited 
amounts of raw fruit are generally considered to have no adverse 
effect."  (Not Margaret's experience.)
   More than you even wanted to know about Elder, I'm sure.  In total there 
are four pages, but I thought just this amount would let you know that 
Elder and the berries should be approached with caution.
June Taylor
pimleyta@cncnet.com

At 07:49 AM 11/30/2001 -0500, you wrote:

>If any of you knowledgeable folks could share some of the things you've
>heard about elder, and/or uses for it that you know of, either privately
>or in a general message, I'd love to hear from you. I promise to make what
>I learn available to all who are interested.
>
>Bobbi Diehl
>Bloomington, IN
>zone 5/6


From melauter@EARTHLINK.NET Fri Nov 30 17:48:16 2001
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From: Margaret Lauterbach <melauter@EARTHLINK.NET>
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 .edu>
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There should be quite a bit about elder in medicinal herb books, Bobbi. The 
flowers are especially prized for medicinal teas, I think. I know a friend 
gathers flowers for some medicinal purpose.  My grandmother had an 
elderberry bush in her yard, but I don't recall ever eating them. After she 
was in a nursing home in Boulder, CO, I drove to her home in Fort Morgan, 
CO to see about something, and noticed the elderberries were apparently 
ripe.  I picked about a gallon, and that evening my mother and I ate a 
bowlful of berries with milk and sugar.  Man!  Both of us found shorter 
ways to the bathroom, and we were practically fighting over it.  I told my 
grandmother about that the next day, and she said she'd never gotten sick 
from them, so we took a bowlful to her.  She got sick too.  Now I see herb 
books recommend they be cooked before being ingested.  Bill Loke in Canada 
makes elderberry wine that will even put snap in the step of a 
90-year-old.  He claims elderberries are more fun than youngerberries.  I 
think he's moving right now, but when he gets settled, I'll see if I can 
get him to divulge The Recipe.  Margaret L



>I have been reading up on the properties of this bush or tree, and it is
>interesting how much folklore is connected with it. It also seems to have
>quite a range of horticultural, herbal and culinary uses. Unfortunately,
>much of this old gardeners' knowledge (or undoubtedly superstition, in
>some cases) is dying out along with the old gardeners.
>
>If any of you knowledgeable folks could share some of the things you've
>heard about elder, and/or uses for it that you know of, either privately
>or in a general message, I'd love to hear from you. I promise to make what
>I learn available to all who are interested.
>
>Bobbi Diehl
>Bloomington, IN
>zone 5/6
>


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From: Bobbi Diehl <diehlr@INDIANA.EDU>
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I have been reading up on the properties of this bush or tree, and it is
interesting how much folklore is connected with it. It also seems to have
quite a range of horticultural, herbal and culinary uses. Unfortunately,
much of this old gardeners' knowledge (or undoubtedly superstition, in
some cases) is dying out along with the old gardeners.

If any of you knowledgeable folks could share some of the things you've
heard about elder, and/or uses for it that you know of, either privately
or in a general message, I'd love to hear from you. I promise to make what
I learn available to all who are interested.

Bobbi Diehl
Bloomington, IN
zone 5/6




From snielsen@orednet.org Wed Nov 28 19:34:39 2001
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:34:39 -0800 (PST)
From: "Susan L. Nielsen" <snielsen@orednet.org>
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This post bounced to me because of an address irregularity. It's
long, and continues a discussion apparently begun on another
list, but I am sending it on in its entirety because I think the
subject ought to be of interest to everyone here...

Susan Nielsen, listowner, HERBS-L

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 08:31:23 -0800
Subject: Re: seed import permits

Firstly, I am deliberately leaving Marges message(below) fully intact in
case anyone missed it prior and wishes to act on what they read.
(pardon the cross posting please,this is too important not to share with
all).

Secondly, I am bewildered as to the lack of responses/replies to a post
such as her's....

*Can someone tell me why there are seldom replies (on List(s) anyway)to
such a devastating (for plant seed companies & collectors)regulation??!
*Are 'plant people' such mild mannered sorts that they just accept what
is handed down..?
*Do we not care what impact this will have on the small seed sources ?
*Are we content with what the major seed houses have to offer?(if your
not,& this continues, eventually that will be all there is to choose
from)......

When I have raised this issue in prior posts I cant recall a single
reply.(save one and that was sent off list)
But when  Marge Talt posts (who we all respect and know well )and even
she cant raise a reasonable amount of  response I am truly confounded and
worried.Also I find it doubtful that readers are contacting their
representatives when they wont even write the list(s)......

If you disagree with me and consider this  a 'good thing',please let us
know and share it with us.

Please forward Marges post on to interested parties..

Gardeners and farmers(and I have been both)have more strength than they
realize,if only they would find their voice.
Connie Hoy

Marge Talt wrote:

> Unfortunately, Janice, this is true.  USDA, in their idiocy, plan on
> starting to implement a regulation that has been on the books for
> ages, but never enforced, that requires phyto certificates for all
> seed imported into the US.  Enforcement slated to start Jan. 22,
> 2002, unless, by some miracle, common sense prevails.
>
> To read the press release (never reached the public as far as I can
> tell) see:
>
> http://www.aphis.usda.gov/lpa/press/2001/08/phydelay.txt
>
> Appears that APHIS puts announcements of their plans in the Federal
> Register...a bit of reading material that I have never read and doubt
> many gardeners put high on their list.  Maybe we should start reading
> this to see what is being planned to make life more interesting.
>
> My understanding, from reading assorted posts and info. on the web is
> that this insanity was pushed hard by the native plant contingent on
> the grounds of saving native species and ecosystems from potential
> harm from possibly invasive species.  Their philosophy is: if in
> doubt, keep it out.  The idea being that any unknown plants would be
> assessed by government agencies over a period of time to prove they
> aren't invasive....a concept that would be funny if it weren't so
> tragic.
>
> Don't get me started on this...I can rant on for quite some time.
>
> But, the fact remains that come January, all US gardeners will be
> very restricted in what seed they can obtain legally since suppliers
> like you and seed exchanges will be severely curtailed....the cost of
> these phytos being prohibitive for a couple packs of seed.
>
> This will also stop or severely inhibit or drive underground seed
> collecting in third world countries that do not have phyto issuing
> capabilities....
>
> If anybody is interested in being able to grow more than the limited
> selections of plants offered from the large US seed houses (Burpee,
> Park, Ferry Morse et al), I have saved some posts from other lists
> with suggested points and how to's  for writing your legislative
> representatives and where to find out who they are, as well as USDA
> addresses to copy the letter to...can ask permission of the original
> posters to copy to the list or can send privately.
>
> Marge Talt, zone 7 Maryland
> mtalt@clark.net
> Editor:  Gardening in Shade
> -----------------------------------------------
> Current Article: Leaves - Shape Part 1
> http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/shade_gardening
> ------------------------------------------------
> Complete Index of Articles by Category and Date
> http://mtalt.hort.net/article-index.html
> ------------------------------------------------
> All Suite101.com garden topics :
> http://www.suite101.com/topics.cfm/635
>
> ----------
> > From: Dowdeswell <dowdeswell@delphinium.co.nz>
> >
> Hi all
> Its Janice Dowdeswell here, from Dowdeswell's delphiniums. I'm not
> trying to spam or advertise here, I have a serious question you may
> be able to help me with if you will. I have just had an email from a
> potential customer and he says:
> to be sure no 'invasive' plants/seeds get imported, they are (I
> believe) going to require import permit stickers (from the US
> addressee) come with seed packets.
> Have you heard anything about this? is it true? It would be almost
> impossible to continue with our business if its true so I would
> really appreciate any light you can shed on this one.
> Kind regards Janice ````````````````````````````` Janice Dowdeswell
> Dowdeswell's Delphiniums http://www.delphinium.co.nz
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------


From cara.df@verizon.net Sat Nov 24 16:32:10 2001
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Thanks for the info on the edibility of the flowers on Pineapple Sage.  =
I have a plant that is about three feet tall and seems to thrive right =
next to my Rosemary.  I loved the blooms this year - just looking at =
them, but never tried to eat them - next year - yum!
Cara

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<DIV><EM><FONT face=3D"Palatino Linotype" size=3D4>Thanks for the info =
on the=20
edibility of the flowers on Pineapple Sage.&nbsp; I have a plant that is =
about=20
three feet tall and seems to thrive right next to my Rosemary.&nbsp; I =
loved the=20
blooms this year - just looking at them, but never tried to eat them - =
next year=20
- yum!</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=3D"Palatino Linotype"=20
size=3D4>Cara</FONT></EM></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From AnkhSis@AOL.COM Fri Nov 23 19:16:51 2001
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<< did you get hummers on it? 
     Second did you soak the seeds or can I just direct sew?
     Thanks for your help.  >>

one seed packet, sewn directly in the soil, produced masses of long, red 
trumpet-like flowers that bloomed over 3 cheap, wire trellises along the edge 
of my herb garden. once in bloom, i had multiple, daily visits from the 
hummingbirds to that part of the garden. i find them easy to grow in average 
soil and full sun with a regular drink of water. from my personal experience 
with this plant, a few things that DIDN'T work well -- starting them early 
indoors and container plantings.

this year, i observed the hummingbirds were spending more time at the tiger 
lilies in addition to the cardinal vines. in the past, their preference was 
ALWAYS the monarda.  

--sorry to chime with an OT post. i've been lurking here for a couple of 
years and during that time i've learned some interesting things but have only 
been able to contribute to the list a few times. sooooo, while i'm still in 
the thanksgiving spirit, thanks to all those who DO share and help make this 
such a pleasant forum!

fondly--
robyn, southeastern MA

From krisp65@hotmail.com Fri Nov 23 16:44:57 2001
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From: "kris plunkett" <krisp65@hotmail.com>
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Subject: OT cardinal vine
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>i've been very successful growing the annual, red cardinal vine. although 
>it
>doesn't bloom until midsummer, the blossoms are plentiful and proved very
>attractive to the hummers. harvesting the seeds was easy so i will 
>definitely
>be planting this again!
>

Yes that's the one I'm talking about. 2 questions. First did you get hummers 
on it? Second did you soak the seeds or can I just direct sew?
Thanks for your help.

Kris P  IL


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In a message dated 11/22/01 9:20:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
krisp65@hotmail.com writes:

<<  So maybe it will bloom next 
 year. I thought about trying an annual vine that has red flowers to grow up 
 the lattice. Of course I can't think of the name of it at the moment.LOL
  >>

i've been very successful growing the annual, red cardinal vine. although it 
doesn't bloom until midsummer, the blossoms are plentiful and proved very 
attractive to the hummers. harvesting the seeds was easy so i will definitely 
be planting this again!



From krisp65@hotmail.com Thu Nov 22 16:20:36 2001
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From: "kris plunkett" <krisp65@hotmail.com>
To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
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>Plant a trumpet vine next spring, some place that you can mow all the way
>around it (it tends to try to take over the place).  You'll get any
>hummingbirds who happen to be within miles, maybe not while your vine is a
>baby, but after a year or two, anyway.

Thanks for your suggestion. I have 2 vines that I'm trying to grow up the 
lattice of the deck. I have yet to see a bloom. I did add a yellow one this 
summer at a different location in the yard. So maybe it will bloom next 
year. I thought about trying an annual vine that has red flowers to grow up 
the lattice. Of course I can't think of the name of it at the moment.LOL

Kris P  IL

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In a message dated 11/21/2001 04:43:19 PM, SaraAnneC@AOL.COM writes:

<< they do not provide the flavor my 
plain old common garden sage does. And they are "iffy" for overwintering in 
Southwest Indiana >>

SaraAnne........I agree with the "Iffy" about the ordinary sage. I had a 
variegated green and yellow and it did not survive in the pot but my lovely 
sage is thriving in a pot outdoors here in Pennsylvania. I really think that 
it is more hardy than the variegated.

Elizabeth

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In a message dated 11/21/2001 1:59:57 PM Central Standard Time, 
krisp65@hotmail.com writes:

<< Do you mean something like tri-colored sage? >>

Hi Kris, and yes, I was talking about tri-color sage (purple, green and white 
leaves) and also the yellow/green variety and the purple sage (leaves tend to 
be deep green to purple, but individual leaves are not variegated as with the 
other two).
I love those varieties as garnishes but they do not provide the flavor my 
plain old common garden sage does. And they are "iffy" for overwintering in 
Southwest Indiana

Fondly,
SaraAnneC

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kris plunkett wrote: 
> Do you mean something like tri-colored sage? I have not grown that
> particular variety but wonder if it would be as you say hardy enough for my
> zone 5 garden.

Tricolor sage is not hardy in mine.  I think it may be an annual, anyway.

From krisp65@hotmail.com Wed Nov 21 21:59:31 2001
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>>My common garden sage blooms profusely every spring right around the same
>time as my garden chives and an old English rose, all planted in the bed 
>with
>other perennial herbs. The lavender color of the sage, the pinkish-lavender
>of the chives and the brilliant rich pink of the rose are enough reason to
>plant these things

SaraAnne that combo sounds beautiful. As I'm not to picky on colors in the 
garden I still think the pinks and purples are outstanding together. I had a 
pink  phlox and the common monarda growing by each other that looked good 
together. Funny thing with the monarda is I did not plant it. Either wind or 
the birds asissted me and the surprise combos are the ones that I like best 
:)


>However; I have never seen any of the sage cultivars bloom at all --
>including bergarten sage, and the various multicolor leafed sages

Do you mean something like tri-colored sage? I have not grown that 
particular variety but wonder if it would be as you say hardy enough for my 
zone 5 garden.

Kris P  IL


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From polycarpa@ckt.net Wed Nov 21 21:58:13 2001
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kris plunkett wrote:

> Alas I never did
> see a hummingbird at it but there again I have yet to see a hummer in my
> yard :(  Did see a hummingbird moth though one day :)

Plant a trumpet vine next spring, some place that you can mow all the way
around it (it tends to try to take over the place).  You'll get any
hummingbirds who happen to be within miles, maybe not while your vine is a
baby, but after a year or two, anyway.

From krisp65@hotmail.com Wed Nov 21 21:51:35 2001
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>purple-flowering sage.  Pineapple sage and some of the other frost-tender
>sages bloom red, and their blossoms are tasty.  You can also suck the
>nectar out of those for a treat.  Margaret L

I don't grow very many annuals or tender perennials but I did buy a 
pineapple sage plant this summer. It grew and grew but never any blooms :(  
(I'm notorious for growing things that should bloom but don't ever seem to 
get around to it.LOL)  Anyway it finally bloomed and due to the mild 
fall/winter we are having here in central IL it is gorgeous. It is planted 
close to a tall ornamental grass so as most things are brown and taking 
there winter sleep there is this vibrant splash of color. Alas I never did 
see a hummingbird at it but there again I have yet to see a hummer in my 
yard :(  Did see a hummingbird moth though one day :)

Kris P  IL

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From SaraAnneC@AOL.COM Wed Nov 21 18:00:54 2001
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From: SaraAnneC@AOL.COM
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Thankyou, thankyou!

I'll pay them a visit here real soon, after the wear and tear of Thanksgiving 
dinner for nine -- and my house -- has subsided.
I am going to have to redo my perennial herb bed next spring anyway (it is 
seriously overgrown and the garlic chives are coming up all over the place -- 
including cracks in the sidewalk)
This will be  perfect time to add new plants to the area

Fondly,
SaraAnneC

From melauter@EARTHLINK.NET Wed Nov 21 15:25:50 2001
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I'm a former smoker, so my taste distinction is not keen. It tastes much 
like Salvia officinalis to me. I live in Southwest Idaho, in an area that 
is usually zone 6, sometimes 5, and other times it drops to 4. I'm not sure 
we've had a zone 4 winter since I've had this sage, though.  If it produces 
viable seeds, it's done so when I wasn't looking.  The only source I know 
for this is a herb nursery called Wrenwood in Berkeley Spring, WVa.  It's 
findable via Google. I no longer have their catalog.  Margaret L


><<  "Town of Bath" sage.
>  It blooms pink, >>
>
>Tell me more about this sage? What is the flavor like? How winter hardy is
>it? (I live in zone 6a)
>And do you know a source where I could get some?
>I am partial to flowers that come in the purple-lavender-pink hues
>
>Thanks,
>SaraAnneC


From AMcgo@AOL.COM Wed Nov 21 01:20:49 2001
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Oops...I love them! Saw my first a couple of years ago at some yellow cannas. It was so bold and unafraid!

I rarely get hummingbirds, so I enjoy attracting the moths. This year we had at least six at a time. My front yard was planted in cleome, petunias, and datura (among many other annuals) which seem to be a great attractant. They appear to be most attracted to light colored blossoms at dusk. My children and I enjoy sitting on our front porch in the early evening and watching them flit and hover all around us.

Mine are the black and white striped variety. Tomato hornworms? Had heard about that...still detest and kill them, but with some mixed feelings.

Alison
Nichols, IA - zone 5a

P.S. Plucked some fresh oregano and parsley from the herb garden today...nice weather we've been having! Parsley potatoes for supper!

From SaraAnneC@AOL.COM Wed Nov 21 00:51:37 2001
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From: SaraAnneC@AOL.COM
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Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:51:37 EST
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In a message dated 11/20/2001 3:36:52 PM Central Standard Time, 
melauter@EARTHLINK.NET writes:

<<  "Town of Bath" sage. 
 It blooms pink, >>

Tell me more about this sage? What is the flavor like? How winter hardy is 
it? (I live in zone 6a)
And do you know a source where I could get some?
I am partial to flowers that come in the purple-lavender-pink hues

Thanks,
SaraAnneC

From SaraAnneC@AOL.COM Wed Nov 21 00:48:27 2001
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From: SaraAnneC@AOL.COM
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Hello everyone;

My common garden sage blooms profusely every spring right around the same 
time as my garden chives and an old English rose, all planted in the bed with 
other perennial herbs. The lavender color of the sage, the pinkish-lavender 
of the chives and the brilliant rich pink of the rose are enough reason to 
plant these things ... having material to carry into the kitchen is a 
blessing (in addition to the herb blooms and leaves, I use rose petals in 
salads and such).
However; I have never seen any of the sage cultivars bloom at all -- 
including bergarten sage, and the various multicolor leafed sages I have 
grown in the past. Also these cultivars are not nearly as winter hardy....

Fondly,
SaraAnneC

From melauter@EARTHLINK.NET Tue Nov 20 23:36:14 2001
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Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 14:36:14 -0700
To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
From: Margaret Lauterbach <melauter@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Sage
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Most culinary sage (the regular hardy sage) blooms purple.  I wondered for 
years whether Zane Grey had mistaken culinary sage for regular wild sage 
when he wrote "Riders of the Purple Sage."  In recent years, I've seen 
references to purple sage that grows native to Arizona and New Mexico, so 
perhaps he did know.  I have a culinary sage known as "Town of Bath" sage. 
It blooms pink, and has a slightly different growth pattern than the 
purple-flowering sage.  Pineapple sage and some of the other frost-tender 
sages bloom red, and their blossoms are tasty.  You can also suck the 
nectar out of those for a treat.  Margaret L


>Just to let you know most plants have a flower. Sometimes you don't notice 
>it though. You will notice sages beautiful bloom.
>
>Kris P  IL


From krisp65@hotmail.com Tue Nov 20 23:20:08 2001
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From: "kris plunkett" <krisp65@hotmail.com>
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From: ElizPlasick@AOL.COM
>Reply-To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
>To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
>Subject: Re: Sage
>Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 16:33:48 EST
>
>I never knew that sage blooms with flowers....Cannot wait till spring to 
>see
>them.
>
>Elizabeth

Just to let you know most plants have a flower. Sometimes you don't notice 
it though. You will notice sages beautiful bloom.

Kris P  IL

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


From SaraAnneC@AOL.COM Mon Nov 19 20:00:09 2001
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From: SaraAnneC@AOL.COM
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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 13:00:09 EST
Subject: Re: hummingbird  moths
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Hello again;

I checked the photos at the first web address -- the hummingbird moths that 
visit my yard, at least to date, are the third variety pictured -- the 
"unidentified" ones ... wouldn't you know  =)
Thanks again,
SaraAnneC

From dorsettm@scin.quik.com Mon Nov 19 19:36:54 2001
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From: "Dorsett" <dorsettm@scin.quik.com>
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Subject: RE: hummingbird  moths
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 12:36:54 -0500
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There are several different 'hummingbird moths.'  The first ones pictured on
this webpage are tomato hornworm parents.  The first set clearwing
hummingbird moth images show the hummingbird moth I usually see in my
garden:
 http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/6745/hummingbird_moth.html

Another view of White-Lined Sphinx moths, aka hummingbird moths:
http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/CoopExt/4DMG/Pests/hummingb.htm

Barb in Southern Indiana  Zone 5/6  dorsettm@scin.quik.com
    A root is a flower that disdains fame.


> << these moths are the parents of tomato hornworms. >>
>
> I did not know that!
> I'll never be able to look at those worms in the same, totally negative,
> light again.
> Thanks for the bit of gardening trivia!
>
> SaraAnneC
>
>


From aparker@shianet.org Mon Nov 19 18:12:04 2001
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I went to the web site for the hummingbird moth.  Thank you for posting it
Elizabeth.

I saw one, and then it was years later before I ever saw another one.  The
day I saw
my second one I called my husband out to see this very "rare" little
creature.
He was amazed, ....and blessed!! two more showed up!!  and then for the next
several days
we both saw a total of 7 .    (or the same one several times??)    A
wonderful experience.  They were working our corelbells and mint, just like
the Humming birds.


From SaraAnneC@AOL.COM Mon Nov 19 17:51:33 2001
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From: SaraAnneC@AOL.COM
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In a message dated 11/19/2001 9:27:38 AM Central Standard Time, 
melauter@EARTHLINK.NET writes:

<< these moths are the parents of tomato hornworms. >>

I did not know that!
I'll never be able to look at those worms in the same, totally negative, 
light again.
Thanks for the bit of gardening trivia!

SaraAnneC 

From melauter@EARTHLINK.NET Mon Nov 19 17:19:35 2001
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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 08:19:35 -0700
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From: Margaret Lauterbach <melauter@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Sage
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These moths are the parents of tomato hornworms.  Margaret L
>Has anyone ever seen a hummingbird moth?  The first time I saw one it was
>working our
>sage plant.  Amazing to see.  I called the agriculture dept. for our county
>and the rep. sent
>me info on them.   I never knew such a little creature existed.


From ElizPlasick@AOL.COM Mon Nov 19 15:04:51 2001
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Just read that the county might be a place to ask about the hummingbird moth. 
When I lived in the state of Michigan, the Cooperative Extension of Michigan 
State University was a place to ask for information. Thanks for the 
suggestion. I will inquire here in our county of Westmoreland, Pa.

Elizabeth

From ElizPlasick@AOL.COM Mon Nov 19 15:02:28 2001
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Hummingbird Moth......

What do they look like? This summer, I saw something that looked like a large 
bee but it was longated in form of a small bird....Could this be the 
Hummingbird Moth?

Is there somewhere online that a picture of this critter could be found?

Elizabeth

From SaraAnneC@AOL.COM Mon Nov 19 04:44:30 2001
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In a message dated 11/18/2001 7:27:43 PM Central Standard Time, 
aparker@shianet.org writes:

<< Has anyone ever seen a hummingbird moth?  >>

I get a few of them, usually as solitary visitors, every summer -- late in 
the season -- they are attracted to my moonflower vines -- the large white 
and highly fragrant blooms open about dusk and then the show begins... the 
moths really are quite something to see aren't they? Ours are not 
particularly afraid of us if we move slowly and deliberately and we are able 
to observe them up close and personal.

Fondly,
SaraAnneC

From aparker@shianet.org Mon Nov 19 03:31:53 2001
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Has anyone ever seen a hummingbird moth?  The first time I saw one it was
working our
sage plant.  Amazing to see.  I called the agriculture dept. for our county
and the rep. sent
me info on them.   I never knew such a little creature existed.


From ElizPlasick@AOL.COM Sun Nov 18 23:33:48 2001
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I never knew that sage blooms with flowers....Cannot wait till spring to see 
them.

Elizabeth

From AMcgo@AOL.COM Sun Nov 18 22:39:14 2001
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Also in Iowa. Have had sage for three years now (in the ground). Previously had taken cuttings in mid-summer. Cut it back last year in the fall. I have found that it flowers in the spring on old wood...had no flowers this year. And they are so beautiful and beloved by the bees!I will go back to cutting AFTER the flowers die back.

Alison
Nichols, IA

From snielsen@orednet.org Sun Nov 18 04:52:33 2001
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 06:45:21 -0800
From: Mary <xanthia@ia.net>
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving...

I have a sage plant also and am in Iowa so we have harsh winters too.  Mine 
is in the ground and has survived several winters.  I would be afraid of 
the roots freezing in a pot.  I cut mine back and mulch it heavily and it 
has done fine.

Mary B


At 08:04 AM 11/17/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Speaking of sage, I have a sage plant in a huge plastic planter on my patio.
>Will it survive the winter in Pennsylvania? Should I cut it back and protect
>it? I have noticed that it survived the low temperatures that killed off my
>annuals. It certainly is a beautiful plant that blends in with my other
>flowers in the spring and summer.
>
>Elizabeth


From cara.df@verizon.net Sun Nov 18 01:56:06 2001
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Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 15:56:06 -0800
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I'm reading all your e mails and so glad to be in California.  I just =
picked fresh rosemary and oregano for spaghetti last night, and my sage =
and marjoram and thyme are all abundant and do well all winter.  It =
seldom freezes in winter even at night here so I don't have the seasonal =
worries that you do.  I have lived in the midwest and east though - and =
while the seasons are beautiful I certainly don't miss the cold and =
snow!

I did use a frozen basil cube - thanks to whoever suggested freezing the =
basil in olive oil - it's great!  Wish I could overnight you all some =
fresh herbs for the Holidays but I'm afraid it would be cost prohibitive =
:)
Cara in California

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<DIV><EM><FONT face=3D"Palatino Linotype" size=3D4>I'm reading all your =
e mails and=20
so glad to be in California.&nbsp; I just picked fresh rosemary and =
oregano for=20
spaghetti last night, and my sage and marjoram and thyme are all =
abundant and do=20
well all winter.&nbsp; It seldom freezes in winter even at night here so =
I don't=20
have the seasonal worries that you do.&nbsp; I have lived in the midwest =
and=20
east though - and while the seasons are beautiful I certainly don't miss =
the=20
cold and snow!</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=3D"Palatino Linotype" =
size=3D4></FONT></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=3D"Palatino Linotype" size=3D4>I did use a frozen =
basil cube -=20
thanks to whoever suggested freezing the basil in olive oil - it's =
great!&nbsp;=20
Wish I could overnight you all some fresh herbs for the Holidays but I'm =
afraid=20
it would be cost prohibitive :)</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=3D"Palatino Linotype" size=3D4>Cara in=20
California</FONT></EM></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C16F80.5DEE2630--



From aparker@shianet.org Sat Nov 17 22:54:55 2001
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From: "Paulette" <aparker@shianet.org>
To: <HERBS-L@orednet.org>
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Subject: Re: sage in planter....
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 15:54:55 -0500
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We have a large sage plant that has survived Michigan winters for over 10
years.  It was planted in a raised bed on the east side of the garage.
It's protected from direct winter weather.
I  think if it's in a planter/container you might consider wrapping it with
burlap?




From ElizPlasick@AOL.COM Sat Nov 17 15:04:38 2001
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From: ElizPlasick@AOL.COM
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Subject: Re: Thanksgiving...
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Speaking of sage, I have a sage plant in a huge plastic planter on my patio. 
Will it survive the winter in Pennsylvania? Should I cut it back and protect 
it? I have noticed that it survived the low temperatures that killed off my 
annuals. It certainly is a beautiful plant that blends in with my other 
flowers in the spring and summer.

Elizabeth

From aparker@shianet.org Sat Nov 17 08:29:32 2001
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From: "Paulette" <aparker@shianet.org>
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Subject: Thanksgiving...
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I'm going to use as many herbal receipts as possible this year.  I've been
working on my menu
now for the last two days.  I will also purchase fresh rosemary, thyme,
mint.  I've still got sage
growing here in Michigan and I'll use some of the leafs as garnish.

I have a picture I cut out of a magazine years ago.  Using a orange scooped
out to server
cranberry relish in the shell of the orange peel.  I'm going to try to do
this with a lemon and a
lime.  Thinking about putting some olives inside the scooped out lemon.


From tmueller@bluegrass.net Mon Oct 29 09:09:00 2001
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To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
From: "Thomas Mueller" <tmueller@bluegrass.net>
Subject: Re: Cooking Kale
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> when you 'throw' kale in the soup pot...    do you slice it?

When I prepare kale for cooking, I break it up as little as possible.  It would
be a nuisance to get out of the pot if cut in small pieces.  I never remove the
midribs.

From JoOhio1@AOL.COM Sat Oct 27 05:27:57 2001
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I cut it into small pieces, but I don't remove the ribs....not with homegrown 
kale.

From aparker@shianet.org Sat Oct 27 04:37:33 2001
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From: "Paulette" <aparker@shianet.org>
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when you 'throw' kale in the soup pot...    do you slice it?



From JoOhio1@AOL.COM Fri Oct 26 17:31:36 2001
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Subject: Re: Cooking Kale
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I have found that home-grown kale is much softer than store-bought.  All 
parts can be used when it's home-grown.  The soup you talked about is also 
known as Portugese Kale Soup.  No need to boil the kale...just cut up and add 
to the soup pot.

Jo

From tmueller@bluegrass.net Wed Oct 24 11:34:22 2001
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To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
From: "Thomas Mueller" <tmueller@bluegrass.net>
Subject: Re: horseradish...
References: <b4.78b9d7.2905486c@aol.com> <Pine.GSO.3.96.1011022072044.28475A-100000@kate.ucs.indiana.edu>
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>I have one recipe using kale that I like very much. It is a soup with
>potatoes and sausage in it. Thomas, do you grow your own kale or just buy
>at the store? When you cook it, how is it prepared?

>Bobbi

I buy kale at the farmers' market in season, otherwise at the store.  I have no
place to grow kale, living in an apartment complex.

I often include kale and other vegetables in the pot when cooking beans and
brown rice or other grains.  Without beans and grains, in a pot on the top of
the stove, I use a small amount, enough to be safe against cooking dry.  I also
cook vegetables in the oven inside a Corning Ware container, ceramic with glass
top, usually the 5 quart size, when baking bread, or even when not baking bread.
This method is sort of a hybrid between baking and steaming, and any potato,
even a new potato with thin skin, is a good baking potato by this method, or it
was until spring-summer 1996, when I became strongly allergic to potatoes, and
less strongly allergic to eggplant, peppers (Capsicum genus) and tomatoes.
I rarely cook kale alone, without other vegetables.  I don't use written or
printed recipes, there is no fixed ratio of ingredients with the kale.

From aparker@shianet.org Wed Oct 24 05:55:48 2001
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From: "Paulette" <aparker@shianet.org>
To: <HERBS-L@orednet.org>
References: <4.3.1.2.20011022092232.00ca5590@mail.earthlink.net> <008401c15bde$c7a7ba10$4e322304@feuerstein>
Subject: stone soup..
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:55:48 -0400
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I'm sure everyone has read or heard the fable/story of the beggar and the
stone soup..
When I was young my mother would make onion soup.   LOL... not until I had
my own family did I ever make the connection between onion soup and stone
soup.
My mom would fix for her and I two chicken legs and two wings and onion
soup.  That was our
supper.   I loved it.  I didn't know we were broke.


From cara.df@verizon.net Tue Oct 23 19:21:31 2001
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Subject: Cooking Kale
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:21:31 -0700
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I cook both kale and spinach a very simple way.  With Kale I strip the =
leaf part from the stem and center vein as they are tough, no need to do =
this with spinach - then drop into lightly salted boiling water for just =
a few minutes until they turn bright green and are just tender.

Thats it!  Quick, simple and tastes great.  Of course I love cooking as =
simply as possible - my favorite recipe book is one from Helen =
Nearing.......

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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=3D"Palatino Linotype" size=3D4>I cook both kale and =
spinach a=20
very simple way.&nbsp; With Kale I strip the leaf part from the stem and =
center=20
vein as they are tough, no need to do this with spinach - then drop into =
lightly=20
salted boiling water for just a few minutes until they turn bright green =
and are=20
just tender.</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=3D"Palatino Linotype" =
size=3D4></FONT></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=3D"Palatino Linotype" size=3D4>Thats it!&nbsp; =
Quick, simple and=20
tastes great.&nbsp; Of course I love cooking as simply as possible - my =
favorite=20
recipe book is one from Helen =
Nearing.......</FONT></EM></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C15BA4.19E644D0--


From micyn@cvtv.net Tue Oct 23 15:30:34 2001
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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 07:30:34 -0500
To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
From: micyn@cvtv.net (Cindy Meredith)
Subject: Re: horseradish...
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< I'd like to try to grow horseradish this coming spring.  Any suggestions?
>

The easiest way to grow horseradish is to get a piece of the root and 
plant it. You can use root purchased from a grocery store if you know 
it hasn't been treated. Or, get a piece from another gardener. You 
might have to wait until Spring to plant it outdoors if you live 
where the ground freezes, but you could start it in a pot over the 
winter and plant it out already sprouted in the Spring. Also, if you 
have a small garden area and think the horseradish would be too 
invasive, keep it growing in a large pot. That way it won't be such a 
pest in the garden.

Cindy in TX

From SaraAnneC@AOL.COM Tue Oct 23 00:36:50 2001
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From: SaraAnneC@AOL.COM
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Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:36:50 EDT
Subject: Re: horseradish...
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In a message dated 10/19/2001 10:34:21 PM Central Daylight Time, 
aparker@shianet.org writes:

<< I'd like to try to grow horseradish this coming spring.  Any suggestions? 
>>

Hi;

I have a friend who grows horseradish here on Southwest Indiana (Zone 6a) 
where native soil is heavy clay-loam in nature. He swears once you plant it 
you will never be without it again -- even if you try. It is a very vigorous 
and tenacious plant.
He believes the best time to harvest is after a hard frost -- that the roots 
have the most heat in them during the coldest months of the year. I have 
heard others say it really doesn't matter all that much .... all I know for 
sure is my friend's stuff is REAL potent....

Fondly,
SaraAnneC

From melauter@EARTHLINK.NET Mon Oct 22 18:23:09 2001
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Yes, I'd like that too. I've been told a leaf of kale contains as much 
calcium as a glass of milk.  Margaret L


>In a message dated 10/22/2001 04:07:07 AM, tmueller@bluegrass.net writes:
>
><< I cook and eat a
>
>lot of kale. >>
>
>If you cook and eat a lot of kale, you must have methods of cooking and
>recipes. Would you please send us some recipes for kale?


From diehlr@INDIANA.EDU Mon Oct 22 15:23:48 2001
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Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 07:23:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Bobbi Diehl <diehlr@INDIANA.EDU>
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I have one recipe using kale that I like very much. It is a soup with
potatoes and sausage in it. Thomas, do you grow your own kale or just buy
at the store? When you cook it, how is it prepared? 

Bobbi


On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Thomas Mueller wrote:
> collards is Brassica oleracea acephala.  Cabbage is Brassica oleracea capitata.
> So kale or collards is simply a nonheading cabbage variety.  I cook and eat a
> lot of kale.  Horseradish (Armoracia rusticana or Armoracia lapathifolia) is in
> the same family (Brassicaceae) as cabbage and kale.
> 
> 




From ElizPlasick@AOL.COM Mon Oct 22 13:01:16 2001
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In a message dated 10/22/2001 04:07:07 AM, tmueller@bluegrass.net writes:

<< I cook and eat a

lot of kale. >>

If you cook and eat a lot of kale, you must have methods of cooking and 
recipes. Would you please send us some recipes for kale?

From tmueller@bluegrass.net Mon Oct 22 11:04:20 2001
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To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
From: "Thomas Mueller" <tmueller@bluegrass.net>
Subject: Re: horseradish...
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1011020092529.9696A-100000@compass.oregonvos.net> <3BD1AF27.B72557A4@ckt.net> <003201c15992$80daba40$3a8728d8@pp1005622onem>
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from Sibyl Smirl <polycarpa@ckt.net>:

>taste)--you can't "acquire the taste" by
>grinning and bearing it enough times: if it tastes bad to you, it'll
>_always_ taste bad to you.

from Paulette:

>....interesting... I believe it.   So, this "not so pleasant taste of Kale"
>is my own
>personal 'preference' type of taste.     Ok.   I do like cabbage and I don't
>care
>for spinach.  So, the kale and spinach are in the same category I'd think,
>right?
>Very interesting...     Thanks....

Kale and spinach are not in the same family!  Spinach is Spinacea oleracea,
family Chenopodiaceae, same family as beets and lamb's quarters.  Kale or
collards is Brassica oleracea acephala.  Cabbage is Brassica oleracea capitata.
So kale or collards is simply a nonheading cabbage variety.  I cook and eat a
lot of kale.  Horseradish (Armoracia rusticana or Armoracia lapathifolia) is in
the same family (Brassicaceae) as cabbage and kale.

From polycarpa@ckt.net Sun Oct 21 00:04:21 2001
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Subject: Re: horseradish...
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1011020092529.9696A-100000@compass.oregonvos.net> <3BD1AF27.B72557A4@ckt.net> <003201c15992$80daba40$3a8728d8@pp1005622onem>
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well, if the thing that makes you dislike kale is the thing I was reading
about, it isn't just a preference--you are actually tasting something that
people who do like it are genetically unable to taste--it's the way your
taste buds are built, the chemicals they're equipped to detect.

When they pass a bit of the "demonstration" chemical I mentioned around a
genetics classroom, some of the kids will taste something somewhat
unpleasant, and some of them won't be able to taste anything but paper (or
whatever it's embedded in).

Paulette wrote:
> 
> >taste)--you can't "acquire the taste" by
> >grinning and bearing it enough times: if it tastes bad to you, it'll
> >_always_ taste bad to you.
> 
> ....interesting... I believe it.   So, this "not so pleasant taste of Kale"
> is my own
> personal 'preference' type of taste.     Ok.   I do like cabbage and I don't
> care
> for spinach.  So, the kale and spinach are in the same category I'd think,
> right?
> Very interesting...     Thanks....

From dorsettm@scin.quik.com Sat Oct 20 21:52:58 2001
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From: "Dorsett" <dorsettm@scin.quik.com>
To: <HERBS-L@orednet.org>
Subject: RE: horseradish...
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 13:52:58 -0500
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I think Paulette was cutting garlic chives as well as praising its weather
tolerance.

She plans to try growing horseradish next spring so she wouldn't be able to
cut that yet...unless she's borrowing someone else's plant.  Borrowed
plant...may be a good idea, as far as horseradish is concerned.  :)

Barb in Southern Indiana  Zone 5/6  dorsettm@scin.quik.com
  Time is what keeps things from happening all at once.

> what do you mean you "cut" the horseradish??  the leaves?  aren't they
> very hot?  I dig the root, grate, & etc.

<snip>
> On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:39:09 -0400, you issued the following pearls of
> wisdom:
>
> >This herb must get an award for tolerance and perseverance.  I
> just cut some
> >this after noon
> >for a salad.   We've had frost, but this herb, garlic chives,
> never seems to
> >quit.  I'll be I could
> >push the snow off in the winter and find some to cut.
> >
> >I'd like to try to grow horseradish this coming spring.  Any suggestions?

<snip>


From ElizPlasick@AOL.COM Sat Oct 20 21:48:40 2001
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Subject: Re: horseradish...
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In a message dated 10/20/2001 02:05:00 PM, aparker@shianet.org writes:

<<  I do like cabbage and I don't

care

for spinach. >>

Spinach is great in salads.....I do not care for spinach that is cooked but 
love it raw mixed in with other greens. It can be great with bacon and 
vinegar dressing.

Elizabeth

From aparker@shianet.org Sat Oct 20 21:10:25 2001
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From: "Paulette" <aparker@shianet.org>
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Subject: Re: horseradish...
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>taste)--you can't "acquire the taste" by
>grinning and bearing it enough times: if it tastes bad to you, it'll
>_always_ taste bad to you.


....interesting... I believe it.   So, this "not so pleasant taste of Kale"
is my own
personal 'preference' type of taste.     Ok.   I do like cabbage and I don't
care
for spinach.  So, the kale and spinach are in the same category I'd think,
right?
Very interesting...     Thanks....


From polycarpa@ckt.net Sat Oct 20 20:06:55 2001
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"Susan L. Nielsen" wrote: 
> don't worry about growing horseradish next spring.  you will!  once
> you have it, you'll never get rid of it!!!

opinion ditto--the smallest bit of root left in the ground sprouts next spring.

> 
> I use kale in soup.  never noticed the bitterness.  cut it up a bit.

I read recently that they've found that cole crops have a component like
that chemical that they pass around in genetics classes as a
demonstration--that some people taste something nasty-bitter in it, and
other people just don't.  It's hereditary, not a "matter of taste" (though
it _is_, literally, a matter of taste)--you can't "acquire the taste" by
grinning and bearing it enough times: if it tastes bad to you, it'll
_always_ taste bad to you.

From snielsen@orednet.org Sat Oct 20 19:27:00 2001
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---------- Forwarded message ----------

From: Judy <jcosler@starpower.net>
Subject: Re: horseradish...
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 06:06:35 -0400

what do you mean you "cut" the horseradish??  the leaves?  aren't they
very hot?  I dig the root, grate, & etc.

don't worry about growing horseradish next spring.  you will!  once
you have it, you'll never get rid of it!!!

I use kale in soup.  never noticed the bitterness.  cut it up a bit.

On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:39:09 -0400, you issued the following pearls of
wisdom:

>This herb must get an award for tolerance and perseverance.  I just cut some
>this after noon
>for a salad.   We've had frost, but this herb, garlic chives, never seems to
>quit.  I'll be I could
>push the snow off in the winter and find some to cut.
>
>I'd like to try to grow horseradish this coming spring.  Any suggestions?
>Also, what do you know about receipts for using French kale?
>It's bitter to me.  A person told me to use it in soup.  I did this, but
>apparently I
>used to much.


From aparker@shianet.org Sat Oct 20 06:39:09 2001
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From: "Paulette" <aparker@shianet.org>
To: <HERBS-L@orednet.org>
References: <16.13cbbace.28fc6b3d@aol.com>
Subject: horseradish...
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:39:09 -0400
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This herb must get an award for tolerance and perseverance.  I just cut some
this after noon
for a salad.   We've had frost, but this herb, garlic chives, never seems to
quit.  I'll be I could
push the snow off in the winter and find some to cut.

I'd like to try to grow horseradish this coming spring.  Any suggestions?
Also, what do you know about receipts for using French kale?
It's bitter to me.  A person told me to use it in soup.  I did this, but
apparently I
used to much.


From SaraAnneC@AOL.COM Mon Oct 15 19:39:25 2001
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From: SaraAnneC@AOL.COM
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:39:25 EDT
Subject: Re: Stevia UPDATE
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Good morning:

I bought some stevia extract once, and some powder, too.... my problem with 
it is that it has a mild but distinctive licorice after taste and I hate 
licorice. Especially in coffee although the cheesecake I tried was pretty 
awful, too.
I have just figured it was a personal problem ...
I also grew stevia one year. Same problem with the aftertaste -- the bees 
loved it though =)

Fondly,
SaraAnneC

From cara.df@verizon.net Mon Oct 15 18:38:15 2001
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From: "Carol Feuerstein" <cara.df@verizon.net>
To: <HERBS-L@orednet.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1011014194810.13959A-100000@kate.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Stevia UPDATE
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:38:15 -0700
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One of the things we always tell anyone who buys stevia is that a tiny
amount is enough.  The more you use the more bitter and weedy it tastes.  I
don't have the exact substitution list at home to look at but it's got a
ratio of around 1 part stevia equals 35 parts sugar.  I'll try to remember
the card from work with the correct info.  Anyway - our best selling
stevia - and the only one I think tastes good as a sweetener in lemonade
etc. is a liquid and you only use about 2 to 3 DROPS in a cup of coffee or
glass of lemonade.  Maybe you just used too much in whatever it was you
tried.:)

Namaste, Cara

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bobbi Diehl" <diehlr@INDIANA.EDU>
To: <HERBS-L@orednet.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: Stevia UPDATE


>
> Marie:
>
> First of all, Stevia looks nothing like marijuana so don't worry. I have a
> book called THE HERBAL EPICURE by Carole Ottesen that has a section on
> Stevia. You might want to look at a copy of that book. She says "stevia
> has a different kind of sweetness" and to check and see if you like it
> before investing in plants. If you DO like it she recommends making a
> syrup from 2T dried stevia leaves and a cup of boiling water. Just pour
> water over the leaves, allow to cool, strain, and refrigerate to use to
> sweeten drinks, etc. If you want more info, EEE me privately.
>
> Bobbi Diehl
> Bloomington, IN
> zone 5/6
>
>
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2001 Rockymrw@AOL.COM wrote:
>
> > Remember my Stevia?    OK..so I plucked the leaves and dried them. Went
to
> > the web site someone sent me to see what to do next.. it mentioned
grinding
> > them in some type of grinder. I only have a blender and ..heck.. can't
think
> > of what it's called at the moment..to lazy to go in the kitchen and
> > check...but the round one that  chops  up everything...grates etc..don't
> > think  the leaves will become powder in that. So I tried crumbling  one
very
> > fine and added it to my coffee...whew..taste just like a weed leaf..not
> > sweet.  The leaves are very sweet to the taste..when tasting one ...but
not
> > in the coffee.
> > Now, I have a gallon zip lock bag on the kitchen counter filled with
leaves.
> > Each time someone new passes through there they remark"Oh, I see that
you
> > harvested your Marajunia crop!"  :-)   Of course I explain what it is.
Noone
> > has heard of Stevia until I explain.
> > Does anyone  have any suggestions?? did read that I can make cuttings
from
> > these plants or keep them in the greenhouse all winter... Not so sure
about
> > that...somone may report I  Am growing  Marajunia!! I don't even know
what
> > those type of leaves look like!
> > Marie (upstate S.C.)
> >
>
>
>


From diehlr@INDIANA.EDU Mon Oct 15 03:52:23 2001
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From: Bobbi Diehl <diehlr@INDIANA.EDU>
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Marie:

First of all, Stevia looks nothing like marijuana so don't worry. I have a
book called THE HERBAL EPICURE by Carole Ottesen that has a section on
Stevia. You might want to look at a copy of that book. She says "stevia
has a different kind of sweetness" and to check and see if you like it
before investing in plants. If you DO like it she recommends making a
syrup from 2T dried stevia leaves and a cup of boiling water. Just pour
water over the leaves, allow to cool, strain, and refrigerate to use to
sweeten drinks, etc. If you want more info, EEE me privately.

Bobbi Diehl
Bloomington, IN
zone 5/6


On Sun, 14 Oct 2001 Rockymrw@AOL.COM wrote:

> Remember my Stevia?    OK..so I plucked the leaves and dried them. Went to 
> the web site someone sent me to see what to do next.. it mentioned grinding 
> them in some type of grinder. I only have a blender and ..heck.. can't think 
> of what it's called at the moment..to lazy to go in the kitchen and 
> check...but the round one that  chops  up everything...grates etc..don't 
> think  the leaves will become powder in that. So I tried crumbling  one very 
> fine and added it to my coffee...whew..taste just like a weed leaf..not 
> sweet.  The leaves are very sweet to the taste..when tasting one ...but not 
> in the coffee. 
> Now, I have a gallon zip lock bag on the kitchen counter filled with leaves. 
> Each time someone new passes through there they remark"Oh, I see that you 
> harvested your Marajunia crop!"  :-)   Of course I explain what it is. Noone  
> has heard of Stevia until I explain.
> Does anyone  have any suggestions?? did read that I can make cuttings from 
> these plants or keep them in the greenhouse all winter... Not so sure about 
> that...somone may report I  Am growing  Marajunia!! I don't even know what 
> those type of leaves look like! 
> Marie (upstate S.C.)
> 




From aparker@shianet.org Mon Oct 15 03:51:02 2001
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From: "Paulette" <aparker@shianet.org>
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Subject: the herbs here are gone..
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 20:51:02 -0400
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I've got one small fennel plant that has two spindly stems with exactly two
very small seed pods
forming at the ends.  They're a yellow.  It's been very cold here at night
in Michigan.  The basil
has been pulled.  The sweetannie harvested.  The chives are most likely
going to pop up through the snow, ...LOL... no keeping that species down.

I have a blend I enjoy putting together myself.  Onion salt, basil, loveage,
garlic powder.
I use it on just about everything, even my eggs.  NOT my husband.  He seems
to draw the
line at loveage or garlic on eggs...... no problem with the basil though.

Didn't make any pesto.  A friend made some two years ago and I put it in the
freezer, she had
given it to me in several small portions, tablespoon size.  I used the last
one this early fall.
I don't use it as much as I'd like to.  It's so nice to have.   Has anyone
tried the garlic paste?
I purchase it at our grocery store and use it for blending with margarine or
butter.  This is the
same thing I do using a tablespoon of reg. mustard (French's) with a tub of
the soft spread Parkay.  I tell our family it's herbal butter, .... they
feel so special.


From Rockymrw@AOL.COM Mon Oct 15 03:33:36 2001
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Subject: Re: Stevia UPDATE
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Remember my Stevia?    OK..so I plucked the leaves and dried them. Went to 
the web site someone sent me to see what to do next.. it mentioned grinding 
them in some type of grinder. I only have a blender and ..heck.. can't think 
of what it's called at the moment..to lazy to go in the kitchen and 
check...but the round one that  chops  up everything...grates etc..don't 
think  the leaves will become powder in that. So I tried crumbling  one very 
fine and added it to my coffee...whew..taste just like a weed leaf..not 
sweet.  The leaves are very sweet to the taste..when tasting one ...but not 
in the coffee. 
Now, I have a gallon zip lock bag on the kitchen counter filled with leaves. 
Each time someone new passes through there they remark"Oh, I see that you 
harvested your Marajunia crop!"  :-)   Of course I explain what it is. Noone  
has heard of Stevia until I explain.
Does anyone  have any suggestions?? did read that I can make cuttings from 
these plants or keep them in the greenhouse all winter... Not so sure about 
that...somone may report I  Am growing  Marajunia!! I don't even know what 
those type of leaves look like! 
Marie (upstate S.C.)

--part1_7b.1c9ac941.28fb88e0_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Remember my Stevia? &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;OK..so I plucked the leaves and dried them. Went to the web site someone sent me to see what to do next.. it mentioned grinding them in some type of grinder. I only have a blender and ..heck.. can't think of what it's called at the moment..to lazy to go in the kitchen and check...but the round one that &nbsp;chops &nbsp;up everything...grates etc..don't think &nbsp;the leaves will become powder in that. So I tried crumbling &nbsp;one very fine and added it to my coffee...whew..taste just like a weed leaf..not sweet. &nbsp;The leaves are very sweet to the taste..when tasting one ...but not in the coffee. 
<BR>Now, I have a gallon zip lock bag on the kitchen counter filled with leaves. Each time someone new passes through there they remark"Oh, I see that you harvested your Marajunia crop!" &nbsp;:-) &nbsp;&nbsp;Of course I explain what it is. Noone &nbsp;has heard of Stevia until I explain.
<BR>Does anyone &nbsp;have any suggestions?? did read that I can make cuttings from these plants or keep them in the greenhouse all winter... Not so sure about that...somone may report I &nbsp;Am growing &nbsp;Marajunia!! I don't even know what those type of leaves look like! 
<BR>Marie (upstate S.C.)</FONT></HTML>

--part1_7b.1c9ac941.28fb88e0_boundary--

From ElizPlasick@AOL.COM Tue Oct  2 22:40:06 2001
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From: ElizPlasick@AOL.COM
Message-ID: <6a.144ea2af.28eb7216@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:40:06 EDT
Subject: Re: Sweet Annie  (aka Jerusalem Oak)
To: loganv@EARTHLINK.NET,
 HERBS-L@orednet.org
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In a message dated 10/01/2001 10:58:45 PM, loganv@EARTHLINK.NET writes:

<< Museum of Appalachia >>

Click Here: <A HREF="http://www.korrnet.org/accc/musapp.html">Anderson 
County, TN - Museum of Appalachia</A>

Click Here: <A HREF="http://cincypost.com/appalachia/">Museum of Appalachia
</A>

Click Here: <A HREF="http://www.gotennessee.com/articles/nov97.htm">The 
Museum of Appalachia</A>

The above web sites are in reference to Museum of Appalachia that Logan 
mentioned in her e-mail. Very nice place to visit.

Elizabeth

From micyn@cvtv.net Tue Oct  2 15:00:58 2001
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 <001401c1487b$572f9d00$1c8528d8@pp1005622onem>	
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Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 07:00:58 -0500
To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
From: micyn@cvtv.net (Cindy Meredith)
Subject: Re: Sweet Annie...
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Logan,

Thanks for the clarification. I've never heard this legend nor read 
about such a use for Sweet Annie. I'll add it to my files to use 
during talks. It's a good one......
Cindy in TX

From micyn@cvtv.net Tue Oct  2 14:58:33 2001
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Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 06:58:33 -0500
To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
From: micyn@cvtv.net (Cindy Meredith)
Subject: Re: Sweet Annie...
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I have heard there are many people allergic to Sweet Annie. Putting a 
wreath outdoors is a great way to use it. And, it does reseed -- 
prolifically -- by wind, I think.

Cindy in TX

>I have a friend in Chicago who had a wreath with Sweet Annie in her home and
>had an allergic reaction to Sweet Annie. She loves the smell of it but cannot
>have it indoors. So, she has a wreath at all her entries to her home to great
>guests. She said the smell is wonderful as they approach the door.
>
>Elizabeth


From loganv@EARTHLINK.NET Tue Oct  2 06:04:05 2001
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From: Logan VanLeigh <loganv@EARTHLINK.NET>
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My earlier reply to Cindy contained directions for use.  I merely want
to to thank all of you for your additional info on this herb.  Until 2
years ago I knew it only as Jerusalem Oak, the name my father knew.  I
stumbled across it as Sweet Annie at the Museum of Appalachia (Norris,
TN) Fall Homecoming being sold as a strewing and wreathing herb.  I
especially appreciate the web links (now added to my bookmarks).

Thanks for helping me flesh out a legacy from my father.

Logan

From loganv@EARTHLINK.NET Tue Oct  2 05:43:36 2001
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Subject: Re: Sweet Annie...
References: <v01530504b7d73265f717@[24.1.217.216]>
	 <001401c1487b$572f9d00$1c8528d8@pp1005622onem>
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Cindy Meredith wrote:
> 
> Logan,
> 
> I'm curious about your description of Sweet Annie as a medicinal.
> Does the child chew/suck on the pieces of herb? Or what?
> 
> Cindy in TX.

Sorry: No.  The pieces of root give off an essential oil similar in
smell, but not identical, to that of the foliage.  When first prepared
the roots have little or no scent.  It takes about 2-3 hours for the
scent to become apparent.  The necklace should be the length of a choker
(touching the collarbones), or a bit longer, to prevent the child from
playing with it.  For safety the thread should be a fine one, so the
child can break it with her own arm strength if necessary.  Prevents
choking but makes frequent replacement necessary if the thread's too
long.

The original "recipe" is couched in religious terms, as are many from
the South.  You want 12 pieces, each the length of the last joint of the
baby's little finger.  Diameter between that of the baby's little finger
and thumb.  Strung on a fine white thread.  Best gathered in the
morning.

Original Recipe:  Early in the morning, as Mary went to the Tomb, the
root of the Jerusalem Oak is gathered by a family member who loves the
child in distress as Christ loves the Church.  Take the root straightway
to a stream of pure water and remove the dirt.  Cut a piece for each
Apostle the size of the child's little finger.  String on a thread fine
as an Angel's hair and white as an Angels' heart.  Replace if needed as
often as the Lord lay in the Tomb (from Fri eve 'til Sun morn is about
36 hours).

We've had great luck with frozen root, and normally only used 6 pieces
at a time replaced every 36-48 hours.

Logan

PS: this was a piece of herb lore taught me by my recently deceased
father.  He knew little such lore, but this one was always a hit.  Never
seen it fail.

From krisp65@hotmail.com Mon Oct  1 22:22:13 2001
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From: "kris plunkett" <krisp65@hotmail.com>
To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
Subject: Re: Sweet Annie...and a basil recipe
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 14:22:13 -0500
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On the subject of artemisias I had to run out to the yard to check on the 
new white mugwort that I planted. Artemisia lactiflora 'Gizhou'. I have a 
mole running around that is doing his darnest to ruin my plants. But the 
mugwort is holding up. Does anyone grow this?

Also there was talk on basil and I wanted to share a recipe that i had 
collected. I have many more recipes collected than time to make but that's 
okay it's still fun to collect them. Plus I like to eat more than cook.LOL
Anyway here it is.

Kris P  IL

*Lemon Basil Chicken - 350 (30-35 minutes)

1 large brown-in-bag

1 Tbsp. flour

3 Tbsp. fresh lemon juice

4 boneless, skinless chicken breasts

2 tsp. dried basil leaves

1 tsp. seasoned salt

1 small onion, sliced and separated into rings



Shake flour into brown-in-bag; place in 13x9x2-inch baking pan.  Add lemon

juice to bag.  Squeeze bag to blend ingredients.  Place chicken in bag.  
Turn

bag to coat chicken with sauce.  Arrange chicken in an even layer; sprinkle

with basil and seasoned salt.  Place onion slices over chicken.  Close bag

with nylon tie; cut 6 1/2-inch slits in top of bag.  Bake at 350 until

chicken is tender, about 30 minutes.  Remove from oven and let stand in bag

for 5 minutes.  Open bag and spoon juices in bag over chicken.


_________________________________________________________________
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From ElizPlasick@AOL.COM Mon Oct  1 21:11:35 2001
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Subject: Re: Sweet Annie...
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I have a friend in Chicago who had a wreath with Sweet Annie in her home and 
had an allergic reaction to Sweet Annie. She loves the smell of it but cannot 
have it indoors. So, she has a wreath at all her entries to her home to great 
guests. She said the smell is wonderful as they approach the door.

Elizabeth

From krisp65@hotmail.com Mon Oct  1 19:47:10 2001
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From: Bobbi Diehl <diehlr@INDIANA.EDU>
>Reply-To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
>To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
>Subject: Re: Sweet Annie...
>Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:13:00 -0500 (EST)
>
>
>I believe it is Artemisia annua unless there has been another name change.
>The fls sure look like an artemisia though. For some reason, it is not
>listed everywhere. It has a lovely smell

Carol, I'm going to disagree with Bobbi on this. For a very short time I 
liked the smell. Then I purchased a cute country decoration that used sweet 
annie. The smell was so overwhelming I had to throw it out :(
Here in the midwest it grows along the interstate. I pass it on 74 everyday 
on my way to work. I also have it growing in my garden but not by my 
design.LOL Not sure if it was the wind or birds but I still like the look of 
it used as the base of a wreath or a swag. I just know from now on not to 
bring it in. Also I didn't know about the medicinal aspects of it but I 
don't have children so will probably not use it that way.

Kris P  IL




>
>Bobbi
>
>On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Carol Feuerstein wrote:



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References: <v01530504b7d73265f717@[24.1.217.216]> <001401c1487b$572f9d00$1c8528d8@pp1005622onem> <3BB5F128.B660F210@earthlink.net> <a04320402b7dd6e398cb2@[65.120.2.253]> <000b01c14a92$03538390$4e322304@feuerstein>
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Carol Feuerstein wrote:
> 
> I live in S. Calif. ( zone 24 ) and am curious about Sweet Annie.  I haven't
> heard of it and it's not listed in my "garden bible" the Sunset Western
> Garden Book.  I've looked it up in several herb books I have also.  Does it
> have another name or do you know the botanical name?

http://www.healthwell.com/healthnotes/Herb/Sweet_Annie.cfm

http://mi.essortment.com/sweetannieherb_rgfl.htm

http://www.geocities.com/nutriflip/Naturopathy/SweetAnnie.html

From hetta@saunalahti.fi Mon Oct  1 19:29:03 2001
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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>
To: HERBS-L@orednet.org
Subject: Re: Sweet Annie...
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 19:29:03 +0300
Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia
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"Carol Feuerstein" <cara.df@verizon.net> wrote to <HERBS-L@orednet.org>:

> I live in S. Calif. ( zone 24 ) and am curious about Sweet Annie.  I haven't
> heard of it and it's not listed in my "garden bible" the Sunset Western
> Garden Book.  I've looked it up in several herb books I have also.  Does it
> have another name or do you know the botanical name?

Artemisia annua. It's related to mugwort. But chewing on the root? That's a new
one.

Cheers
Henriette

-- 
hetta@saunalahti.fi     Helsinki, Finland     http://ibiblio.org/herbmed
Herb FAQs, pictures, classic texts, articles, archives, plant names  ...

From diehlr@INDIANA.EDU Mon Oct  1 19:13:00 2001
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Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:13:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Bobbi Diehl <diehlr@INDIANA.EDU>
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Subject: Re: Sweet Annie...
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I believe it is Artemisia annua unless there has been another name change. 
The fls sure look like an artemisia though. For some reason, it is not
listed everywhere. It has a lovely smell but is not particularly pretty
and the fls are quite fragile. Warning: growing it may cause marital
discord, as it is a hulking brute of a plant and doesn't contribute much
to the aesthetic appearance of one's yard--my husband grew increasingly
upset about it as it grew increasingly large! :-)

The only way I know to grow it is from seed, which must be mail ordered
from one of the big seed companies. I don't know any more particulars,
because a friend gave me two plants she had started. I suppose one could
save seed and plant that in succeeding years.

Bobbi

On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Carol Feuerstein wrote:

> I live in S. Calif. ( zone 24 ) and am curious about Sweet Annie.  I haven't
> heard of it and it's not listed in my "garden bible" the Sunset Western
> Garden Book.  I've looked it up in several herb books I have also.  Does it
> have another name or do you know the botanical name?
> Cara
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cindy Meredith" <micyn@cvtv.net>
> To: <HERBS-L@orednet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 5:59 PM
> Subject: Re: Sweet Annie...
> 
> 
> > Logan,
> >
> > I'm curious about your description of Sweet Annie as a medicinal.
> > Does the child chew/suck on the pieces of herb? Or what?
> >
> > Cindy in TX.
> >
> 
> 




From cara.df@verizon.net Mon Oct  1 18:59:09 2001
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Subject: Re: Sweet Annie...
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I live in S. Calif. ( zone 24 ) and am curious about Sweet Annie.  I haven't
heard of it and it's not listed in my "garden bible" the Sunset Western
Garden Book.  I've looked it up in several herb books I have also.  Does it
have another name or do you know the botanical name?
Cara
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindy Meredith" <micyn@cvtv.net>
To: <HERBS-L@orednet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: Sweet Annie...


> Logan,
>
> I'm curious about your description of Sweet Annie as a medicinal.
> Does the child chew/suck on the pieces of herb? Or what?
>
> Cindy in TX.
>


From micyn@cvtv.net Mon Oct  1 03:59:11 2001
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Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:59:11 -0500
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From: micyn@cvtv.net (Cindy Meredith)
Subject: Re: Sweet Annie...
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Logan,

I'm curious about your description of Sweet Annie as a medicinal. 
Does the child chew/suck on the pieces of herb? Or what?

Cindy in TX.

From micyn@cvtv.net Mon Oct  1 03:59:11 2001
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Hello all you herbies growing herbs indoors,


In my experience, misting helps a lot because indoor air tends to be 
very dry in the winter with the heat on. Also, as much light as 
possible is a necessity. Have any of you ever tried additional lights 
such as a flourescent light or a grow light? It really helps, too.

Watch out for overwatering......it can cause fungus gnats in your 
soil. Also, make sure your soil drains well so the roots dry out 
between watering, especially for the Mediterranean herbs like sage, 
rosemary, thyme, etc. And, if you have saucers under the plants, 
empty them after the water goes through; don't let the pots sit in 
water. Sitting plants on gravel or rocks in trays that are covered 
with water is good, though, because it adds some local humidity.

Lastly, don't expect your indoor herbs to flourish like they do 
outdoors. But, with care, you should be able to keep them growing 
enough for use in the kitchen.

Regards all,
Cindy in TX

