

==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: looking for history

From: "louherbs" <louherbs@paulbunyan.net>

Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 16:28:24 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by Lou Hendrickson <louherbs@paulbunyan.net> :



Start with a search of John Uri Lloyd.  That will probably lead you to some

of the other eclectics.  There is a Lloyd library in Cincinnati.



Lou Hendrickson

Louie's Herbs

Deer River MN



>Sent to the herblist by gloria scholbe <globird@tenmegs.com> :

>

>I was wondering if anyone could point me in the direction of online

>resources about the history of herbal healing, particularly around the

>late 1800's to middle 1900's where herbal medicine and the AMA started

>to clash and herbal healing fell into disfavor.

>

>gloria



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: looking for history

From: Elfreem@aol.com

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:26:05 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by elfreem@aol.com :



>  I was wondering if anyone could point me in the direction of online

>  resources about the history of herbal healing, particularly around the

>  late 1800's to middle 1900's where herbal medicine and the AMA started

>  to clash and herbal healing fell into disfavor.

>  

>  I pick up bits and pieces here and there...have read mention of the

>  Eclectics but can't seem to find a thorough study of this period.



For indepth information on that period, check the Lloyd Library (Cincinnati, 

Ohio) web site for references. To contact them by phone, call 513 721-3707.



<A HREF="http://www.libraries.uc.edu/lloyd/index.htm">Lloyd Library & Museum

</A> 



http://www.libraries.uc.edu/lloyd/index.htm



Regards,



Elliot Freeman



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Angelica seeds

From: "LJS Doody" <ldoody@internetcds.com>

Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 14:08:36 -0700

--------

Sent to the herblist by LJS Doody <ldoody@internetcds.com> :



sarah

i wait until they are near ripening adn then place a large paper bag over

the head, lash it with string adn let the seeds fall into it. to remove cut

it off at the stalk and turn over, give it a good shake and you will have a

bag of seeds and stalks!



Lizzie



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Angelica seeds

From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 10:03:08 +0300

--------

Sent to the herblist by Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi> :



"LJS Doody" <ldoody@internetcds.com> wrote to herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu:



>i wait until they are near ripening adn then place a large paper bag over

>the head, lash it with string adn let the seeds fall into it. to remove cut

>it off at the stalk and turn over, give it a good shake and you will have a

>bag of seeds and stalks!



Also, you want to cut off all but the main flower head while still green.

Sideheads make pretty inferior seeds (not growers, nor very good as "herbs",

either). Cutting them off will give the main head more energy for good seeds,

and you can dry the cuts for tea or tincture them as usual. 



Use it like you would Angelica root or seed. It's not as strong, but shrug, it's

pretty easy to pick.



Your Angelica will look rather ghastly for a few weeks, though.



Because you let your Angelica flower you'll _need_ a few replacement seeds at

the feet of it, else you won't have Angelica next year. Best if sown right off

the ripe seedhead. When is it ripe? When the stem is brown. Don't wait so long

that all the seeds fall off before bagging the head ...



Cheers

Henriette, with Angelica volunteers all over the place. I don't mind, I like

them. I also like my dark mullein, chicory, Verbena hastata, hyssop, catmint

(various kinds), and Eschscholtzia volunteers, among others.



-- 

hetta@saunalahti.fi     Helsinki, Finland     http://ibiblio.org/herbmed

  The HerbFAQs are   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/medi-cont.html

     in new spots:   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/culi-cont.html

Herb FAQs, pictures, classic texts, articles, archives, plant names  ...



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: RE: Angelica seeds

From: "Gardenthyme Lady" <dblan@netusa1.net>

Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:16:06 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by GardenThyme~Lady <dblan@netusa1.net> :



It is my understanding that the seeds from Angelica are not very viable,

that is, you may want to plant them where you want them now, not later.

They need light to germinate.  If you do decide to wait, you may be able to

maintain the viability by storing them in an airtight container in the

refrigerator.  Make sure they are dried before storing, they develop mold

easily.  This plant prefers shady spots and loves soil that is moist and

rich.  If you leave the flower head on, it will make seeds that fall to the

ground and you will have a lot of baby plants.  If you cut the flower stalk

off before it seeds, the original plant will live for many years.  This herb

gets very big and tall!  Every single part of the plant is useful.



Dee

"The Gardenthyme Lady"



Go outside, to the fields, enjoy nature and the sunshine,

go out and try to recapture the happiness in yourself and

in God. Think of all the beauty that's still left in and

around you and be happy.  Author:   Anne Frank



Sent to the herblist by LJS Doody <ldoody@internetcds.com> :



sarah

i wait until they are near ripening adn then place a large paper bag over

the head, lash it with string adn let the seeds fall into it. to remove cut

it off at the stalk and turn over, give it a good shake and you will have a

bag of seeds and stalks!



Lizzie



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: California Poppy

From: Marcia V Grossbard <ngbard@juno.com>

Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 14:03:50 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by marcia v grossbard <ngbard@juno.com> :



On Sat, 30 Jun 2001 08:34:21 -0400 May Terry <mterry@snet.net> writes:

> Sent to the herblist by May Terry <mterry@snet.net> :

> 

> Does anyone know if Eschscholtzia californica works well for 

> insomnia in  tea or capsule form? May



Marcia:

Decoction of aerial parts is described in the herbal PDR as sleep

inducing and anxiety reducing.

Marcia



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Low Blood Pressure!

From: "Florin Dima" <florind@geniusnet.ro>

Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 13:37:39 -0700

--------

Sent to the herblist by Florin Dima <florind@geniusnet.ro> :



Thank you very much!

My wife's (cause it's about my wife) has low blood pressure indicated by

numbers but he also feel seek. She's like no energy she sleep a lot and when

she works on her garden with bottom up she experience dizziness and

headache. Seeing from this point of view do you think different?



regards,

Florin Dima



> >I saw on the list a lot of talking about high blood pressure but there is

> >any herbal treatment for low or fluctuant blood pressure?

>

> Maralroot (Leuzea rhaponticum, Rhaponticum carthamoides) will reliably

raise low

> blood pressure, if used regularly.

>

> Before you embark on a wild goose chase looking for maralroot root

tincture,

> though, I've a question: is your low blood pressure interfering with your

life

> (ie. "real" low blood pressure) or is it just something measured by

numbers?

>

> Because low blood pressure by the numbers shouldn't be tampered with. Some

of us

> NEED low blood pressure to be in balance.

>

>

> Maralroot is easy to grow and the root is large enough for picking after

three

> or so years. It's a tall (1-2 m) Compositae. Being an adaptogen it's used

much

> like the ginsengs. Pics of the plants in flower will be online, soonish,

on my

> site.

>

> Right now I've only got pics of the young plant and of the dug-up root

online.



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Low Blood Pressure!

From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 07:46:49 +0300

--------

Sent to the herblist by Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi> :



"Florin Dima" <florind@geniusnet.ro> wrote to herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu:



>My wife's (cause it's about my wife) has low blood pressure indicated by

>numbers but he also feel seek. She's like no energy she sleep a lot and when

>she works on her garden with bottom up she experience dizziness and

>headache. Seeing from this point of view do you think different?



That is low blood pressure, and not only by numbers. You should probably have no

trouble finding maral root where you're at (Romania, right?). You might even

find it in your local pharmacy.



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

hetta@saunalahti.fi     Helsinki, Finland     http://ibiblio.org/herbmed

  The HerbFAQs are   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/medi-cont.html

     in new spots:   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/culi-cont.html

Herb FAQs, pictures, classic texts, articles, archives, plant names  ...



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Low Blood Pressure!

From: "D.L." <danlowe@ciudad.com.ar>

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 03:48:19 -0300

--------

Sent to the herblist by daniela lowe <danlowe@ciudad.com.ar> :



Hi  everyone! I hope you are all doing fine!

I read with interest these last "Low blood Pressure"mails, and kept

wondering if this herb, maral root within a long term usage, doesn't alter

the cardiac rithym...

Usually low blood pressure needs a cardiac compensation , and sometimes a

fluctuant blood pressure can cause dizziness, specially when bending down

and quickly rising up...

May be Henriette, you can add something about this, can you?

And I was also wondering this herb origin and where can it usually be found

in it's natural state.



Thanking you in advance.

I wish you all a very nice day!



Danielita.

Buenos Aires,

Argentina.



> That is low blood pressure, and not only by numbers. You should probably

have no

> trouble finding maral root where you're at (Romania, right?). You might

even

> find it in your local pharmacy.

>

> Cheers

> Henriette



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Low Blood Pressure!

From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:46:38 +0300

--------

Sent to the herblist by Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi> :



"D.L." <danlowe@ciudad.com.ar> wrote to herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu:



>May be Henriette, you can add something about this, can you?



Leuzea is an adaptogen.



>And I was also wondering this herb origin and where can it usually be found

>in it's natural state.



It's from Russia.



Henriette



-- 

hetta@saunalahti.fi           Henriette Kress          Helsinki, Finland   

      Best of RHOD - http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/rhod/main.html

                <FONT FACE="WINGDINGS" SIZE=+6><BLINK>



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: After-sun treatment

From: Jeanette Johnson <rej@cpinternet.com>

Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 22:33:25 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by Jeanette Johnson <rej@cpinternet.com> :



My father was recently wind/sun burned badly and he came to me tonite and asked

if any of my herbs would work on a sunburn.  My aloe plant was recently

"reduced" so I don't have much of that left.  I am also out of Vit E in

capsuule form...



Does anyone have an recipes or concoctions for a soothing lotion or bath?  (it

is on his face)



Thanks,

Jeanette



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: After-sun treatment

From: Elizabeth Scotten <bek@timelessremedies.com>

Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 06:42:56 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by Elizabeth Scotten <timelesstree@earthlink.net> :



on 7/2/01 11:33 PM, Jeanette Johnson at rej@cpinternet.com wrote:



> My father was recently wind/sun burned badly and he came to me tonite and

> asked

> if any of my herbs would work on a sunburn.  My aloe plant was recently



Lavender works beautifully for sunburn. you can make a lavender cream or

lotion or simply add a few drops of the essential oil to distilled water or

rosewater and spritz it on affected areas. i have found lavender to be

incredibly effective for many burns, especially if you apply the oil before

the burn starts to blister. i will get kind of preachy though and say that

for severe buns seek medical attention immediately - i saw the trauma

center's burn video and it wasn't pretty.



peace and lovely day - bek

-- 

bek@timelessremedies.com

http://www.timelessremedies.com



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: After-sun treatment

From: Marcia V Grossbard <ngbard@juno.com>

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:31:17 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by marcia v grossbard <ngbard@juno.com> :



On Mon, 02 Jul 2001 22:33:25 -0500 Jeanette Johnson <rej@cpinternet.com>

writes:

> Sent to the herblist by Jeanette Johnson <rej@cpinternet.com> :> 

> My father was recently wind/sun burned badly ...



Marcia:

What do you have available?  Do you have marshmallow or slippery elm to

make a decoction and chill, and filter/strain and let him use it for cold

compresses.  Jewelweed crushed stems  and plantain crushed leaves could

be added to the cold mix and lavender flowers could be steeped in the hot

decoction.  

Good luck and good health,

Marcia



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: After-sun treatment

From: "gcwhite" <gcwhite@ntlworld.com>

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:08:51 +0100

--------

Sent to the herblist by Graham White <gcwhite@ntlworld.com> :



Hemp seed oil cream (if you can get it) will be helpfull for any

inflammatory skin condition i.e. sunburn.



> Sent to the herblist by Jeanette Johnson <rej@cpinternet.com> :



> My father was recently wind/sun burned badly and he came to me tonite and

asked

> if any of my herbs would work on a sunburn.  My aloe plant was recently

> "reduced" so I don't have much of that left.  I am also out of Vit E in

> capsuule form...



> Does anyone have an recipes or concoctions for a soothing lotion or bath?

(it

> is on his face)



Cheers



Graham White  B.Sc. (Herb. Med.), MNIMH.

Medical Herbalist

Bishop's Stortford & Buntingford

--------------------------------------------------------------------



gcwhite@ntlworld.com



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Sunburn

From: "Eleanor K. Sommer" <eksommer@gator.net>

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:34:18 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by Eleanor K. Sommer <eksommer@gator.net> :



>My father was recently wind/sun burned badly and he came to me tonite and

>asked

>if any of my herbs would work on a sunburn.  My aloe plant was recently

>"reduced" so I don't have much of that left.  I am also out of Vit E in

>capsuule form...



>Does anyone have an recipes or concoctions for a soothing lotion or bath?  (it

>is on his face)



I sometimes use calendula tea as a wash and then St. John's Wort oil and/or

calendula salve when the burn is slightly less acute. Years ago before I

moved permanently to Florida and learned better, I burned badly at a Key

West resort, and another tourist slathered me in menthol shaving cream. Not

very herbal, but it sure took the bite out of the sunburn. So maybe a mint

tea bath would be soothing. -Ellie



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Sunburn

From: awilloby@enternet.co.nz

Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 10:31:45 -0700

--------

Sent to the herblist by awilloby@enternet.co.nz :



I used honey and crushed garlic on an English student who spent s 

sunny day in the snow woith no sun protection.  Worked very well 

indeed.



Cheers



Alan

> >My father was recently wind/sun burned badly and he came to me tonite and

> >asked

> >if any of my herbs would work on a sunburn.  My aloe plant was recently

> >"reduced" so I don't have much of that left.  I am also out of Vit E in

> >capsuule form...

> 

> >Does anyone have an recipes or concoctions for a soothing lotion or bath?  (it

> >is on his face)

Alan Willoughby

Outdoor Training & Assessment Services Ltd

PO Box 296, Tauranga, New Zealand

Phone/fax 64 7 5443087  Mobile 025 809 816

Website www.outdooreducation.co.nz



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Sunburn

From: Herbgrow30@aol.com

Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 01:05:43 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by herbgrow30@aol.com :



In a message dated 7/3/01 8:37:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 

eksommer@gator.net writes:



<< I sometimes use calendula tea as a wash and then St. John's Wort oil and/or

 calendula salve when the burn is slightly less acute. Years ago before I

 moved permanently to Florida and learned better, I burned badly at a Key

 West resort, and another tourist slathered me in menthol shaving cream. Not

 very herbal, but it sure took the bite out of the sunburn. So maybe a mint

 tea bath would be soothing. -Ellie

  >>



Hi Ellie -



Be careful of mint for anything near a hot condition such as sunburn...mint 

can also cause sweating and an increase in temperature.  Dr. Shook used it 

with Elder flowers when he wanted his patients to sweat out a cold, etc.



I make a cream of vitamin E, whipped aloe gel, a bit of safflower oil, 

calendula, comfrey, and a bit of St. Johns Wort.  Most people feel better 

that night, especially after taking a cool shower to stop the burning of the 

skin.  If one is going to be out in the sun, and knows it in advance, 24-48 

hours of dosing with PABA can cause less stinging of the sunburn also.



Warmly -

Mary



Mary L. Conley, MNH, ND

Conley Farm Learning Center & Apothecary

Private consultations; Classes now forming

Online classes schedule through Herbgrow30@aol.com; 

Mystical Forest Children's Herbs



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: RE: Sunburn

From: "Sarah Head" <sarah@headology.co.uk>

Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 19:47:47 +0100

--------

Sent to the herblist by Sarah J Head <sarah@headology.co.uk> :



Hi Mary



Your sunburn cream sounds wonderful. What proportions of each constituent do

you use in it? When you say whipped aloe vera gel - how much and what do you

whip it with? I have all the ingredients and my aloe vera plants could do

with being reduced a tad! We're off to Cornwall at the end of the month to

sit in a field or by the beach for three weeks, so we can guarentee that

someone is going to get sunburnt at some stage, if only from windburn!



Excuse my ignorance, but what is PABA?



Many thanks



Sarah



Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Version: 6.0.250 / Virus Database: 123 - Release Date: 4/18/01



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: X-Message-Number: 5

From: psilver@cix.compulink.co.uk (Pat Silver)

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 20:16 +0100 (BST)

--------

Sent to the herblist by Pat S <psilver@cix.compulink.co.uk> :



Hi Gloria,



> I was wondering if anyone could point me in the direction of online

> resources about the history of herbal healing, particularly around the

> late 1800's to middle 1900's where herbal medicine and the AMA started

> to clash and herbal healing fell into disfavor.



I don't know of any online resources, but 'A New Green Pharmacy" by 

Barbara Griggs has quite a lot of interesting information.



PatS



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Fw: Sunburn

From: "Sweet Prairie Soap" <jans@adams.net>

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:57:04 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by Jan Schmidt <jans@adams.net> :



 Hello,

>  We have a bottle of Aloe Vera Gel that has 2 tbsp of Lavender Eo to a 16

> ounce bottle. That is our standard remedy.

>  I must say all burn treatments must be used AFTER the heat is removed

from

> the body. Applying creams, butters and salves before cooling, seals in the

> heat and continues to cook the inflamed skin area. We used a tepid bath

with

> apple cider vinegar in it to cool and soothe. Then the aloe vera/lavender

> treatment.

> HTH,

> Jan S

> www.sweetprairiesoap.com

> supplying your gift basket needs

> soap molds, soap cutters, also

> The original all new "CUBE" soap mold!

>



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: history

From: gloria scholbe <globird@tenmegs.com>

Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 11:15:26 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by gloria scholbe <globird@tenmegs.com> :



Hi All,

Thanks for all of the suggestions for researching the history. This is

fascinating stuff, a lot more went on than I ever realised. Does anyone

know how it came about that people became interested in suppressing

symptoms rather than treating the cause of disease? I thought it had

happened right around the late1800s when the AMA started their politic

based persecutions, but after delving into all the ideologies for

treatment with herbs,(Loyd,

Thompson, etc) I've become more confused than ever.



thanks, gloria



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: R: history

From: "marco valussi" <marcobabi@libero.it>

Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:09:14 +0200

--------

Sent to the herblist by Marco Valussi <marcobabi@libero.it> :



Hi Gloria,

this is not intended as a reply to your main question, rather a personal

suggestion on the nature of the question itself.  The more I got into

historical matters - and medical historical matters - the more I realised

one thing (perhaps rather banal): the nature of the reply depends heavily on

the way you posit the question, More specifically, asking when people got

interested in suppressing symptoms rather than treating the cause of the

disease seems to me a question that leaves unchallenged, and unexplained,

the terms of the question itself.  Since the time of the Hippocratic Corpus,

and more so with Galen, with his unsurpassed analytical ability, the

difference between symptoms of disease and disease itself, and the

difference between the may types of causes (efficient, proximal, first,

etc.) in natural philosophy, has been source of heated debate.  Even

contemporary debate is heavily involved in discussions about the nature of

health and disease, and the differences between illness, sickness and

disease.  Thus, I do not think you can so easily put the question in those

terms without a previous analysis.  And also it would help not to couch

those terms in an explicit biased framework (when did it happenen that

people lost the obviously right way and followed the wrong one?); no matter

how good we think 'our' approach is compared to the 'others', in reality

things are not so clear-cut, and at the end of the day all these models are

human creations, with all the pitfalls, and all the power-struggle ever

present in any approach to human health.



The end of the Eclectic adventure in the US cannot be read only in terms of

a vicious attack from the 'Regulars', nor I think we can picture Regulars as

interested only in suppressing symptoms.  You only have to read the writings

of William Osler, a 'Regular' professor at J. Hopkins Uni,  or of Virchow,

using allopatic treatments but in a scientific medicine framework,  to

appreciate the incredible clinical ability, the profound understanding for

human suffering, the deep knowledge of the philosophy and history of

medicine.  And one of the most revolutionary writings on holism in medicine

was written in the 30s by a German Neurologist, Kurt Goldstein ('The

Organism'  Zone Book, NY; a very challenging book), who then fled to the US

to become professor at J Hopkins, where he wrote some of the best clinical

pages on neurology ever written (IMHO).

I wish I could be as good a clinician as they were.



Just some food for thought, good luck on your research



best wishes



marco



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: R: history

From: polo@ccp.com

Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 10:03:03 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by Doug Ahart <polo@ccp.com> :



Dear Marco,

         A superb post. This is the reason I love this list--minds like yours.



thanks,



doug



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: history

From: gloria scholbe <globird@tenmegs.com>

Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 23:44:34 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by gloria scholbe <globird@tenmegs.com> :



Hi Marco,

Your post was very thought provoking. I have a feeling that that more I

delve into the history of medicine and herbalism the more inconclusive

my findings will be, especially if I try to look at the issue from many

sides. I can see how posing my question a certain way begs for an answer

that is biased. However, you must realize that a person doesn't learn

concentrically. Nearly every resource and teacher presents information

from its own viewpoint. Each viewpoint carries certain elements of

validity. So, when I search for a string of words like

history/herbalism/medicine, and I read the information found there, my

viewpoint becomes weighted by what I read. Thus, the way I asked the

question was a natural consequence of the information I've found so far.

My studies are in their infancy. As I progress, I'll keep in mind that

balance is also required. Thanks for the leads to Virchow, Osler, and

Goldstein.



gloria



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: history

From: Michael Acord <mpacord@earthlink.net>

Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 12:11:44 -0700

--------

Sent to the herblist by Michael Acord <mpacord@earthlink.net> :



gloria scholbe wrote:



> Sent to the herblist by gloria scholbe <globird@tenmegs.com> :

>

> Hi Marco,

> SNIP



> However, you must realize that a person doesn't learn

> concentrically. Nearly every resource and teacher presents information

> from its own viewpoint. Each viewpoint carries certain elements of

> validity. So, when I search for a string of words like

> history/herbalism/medicine, and I read the information found there, my

> viewpoint becomes weighted by what I read.

> SNIP

> ---

> Gloria:



 You have just discovered one of the real Truths about science....that the

observer invariably and inevitably changes the observation made.  Heisenberg

would be a good person to read (The Uncertainty Principle), to help clarify the

philosophical underpinnings.  As an MD and an acupuncturist, I sometimes find it

difficult to switch from the Western paradigm to the Eastern, each being based

on a completely different view of the Cosmos.  Come to think of it, Joseph

Campbell might be even better to read (The Masks of God - all four volumes).  He

made the statement that all mythologies are true, and, to a great extent, he was

correct.  If, on the other hand, you are just interested in the history of

medicine, herbs, and healing, you can ignore all this.

    Mike Acord (AB,MA,MD)



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: history

From: Sharon Hodges-Rust <mwherbs@dshome.net>

Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 01:40:29 -0700

--------

Sent to the herblist by Sharon Hodges-Rust <mwherbs@dshome.net> :



Hi Gloria,    Because I wanted a greater understanding of the time 

period and the way treatments were actually done, not just recipes I 

started reading old doctor's autobiographies. Now I haven't read 

enough to be an expert at it but it seems to me that the Civil War 

had a modicum of influence in tipping the scales toward the barber 

surgeon field of expertise. Because there were too few Drs to go 

around many soldiers became field surgeons, mainly doing amputations 

and other surgeries, not much call or education in the art of herbal 

care. When the war was over medical schools opened their doors to 

these vets, and probably some didn't even bother to go to school just 

hung out their shingle. I know that there are a lot of other things 

that came to influence the changes including  Name Brand direct 

marketing of patent medicines. And this all came as a result better 

transportation...

Sharon in Tucson



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re:History

From: Jim <waldpond@interbaun.com>

Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 15:54:39 -0600

--------

Sent to the herblist by Jim <waldpond@interbaun.com> :



> The more I got into

>historical matters - and medical historical matters - the more I realised



<snip>



Good post.  Just thought I would add that to understand the phenomena the

original poster asked about, one has to understand the broader history in which

that happened.



A great reference is Medicine:An Illustrated History by Albert Lyons, et al. 

(Two authors - I'm not positive I've got the exact title and authors correct

because I don't have the book anymore and can't check it - but it has sections

on Chinese, Egyptian, etc. medicine as well as lots on the Western - with lots

of good pictures like the one of Horus in the Egyption section:  Look at this

beside an American bill.  Good section on bleeding George Washington to death -

took three bleedings (I believe 3 pints?) when he had a high fever to kill him

- tough guy!)



Anyways, the most relevant section relating to the broader picture here is the

Roman Churches role from about 400 AD on.  (Again I don't have the book so I

can't give you the exact section.)  Briefly,  the RC got their power base

intitially in 400 AD from the practice of medicine.  The dark ages followed,

emerging about 1100 AD with the extermination of the local European medical

practicers, and the establishment of 5 or 6 "doctors" (who are also Church

members),in the university in France.  These "doctors" dictated medical policy

- including the use of boiling oil for treating gunshot wounds from about 1250

to 1350 AD.  (My dates are from years ago memory, so I could be out 50 to 100

years or so - but the burning oil treatment lasted about 100 years.)  Very

interesting how this treatment ended.  But the basic structure is, one arm

helps create a problem (in this case wars to establish the Holy Roman Empire)

and the other arm sells a "solution" (in this case probably olive oil from

guess where?).



Anyways, worked well then, worked well later, works well now.  Just the type of

problem created and the "solution" sold changes, once people figure out the

"solution" being sold ain't so great.



The most modern example I am aware of is the BSE "mad cow disease" in Britian. 

Some researchers started getting evidence that the cause wasn't in the feed,

but in the nerve poisons applied to cows to combat warble, combined with

nutritional factors like excess magnesium.  Anyways, heres some key names:



Mark Purdey - won a legal battle to not apply the toxin to his cows in 1985,

spent years as an outcast but now leads a UK research study into clusters of

spongiform encephalopathy around the world.  So far he's lucky - just his house

burned down.

Mark Purdey's lawyer for BSE issues - driven off the road and died.

The veterinarian in the UK BSE inquiry (sorry, don't know name) - died in a

mysterious car crash.

Dr. C. Bruton, CJD specialist - killed in a car crash just before he went

public with a new research paper.

Tsunao Saitoh - leading CJD researcher in California - he and his daughter

killed in 1996 in a "very professional shooting" according to Reuters.



(all information on the BSE situation above is from Alive magazine , June 2001,

p. 66-68.  While this is not a greatly credible magazine, I believe the above

information is accurate enought to give one pause.   Check also

<http://www.bse.org.uk/>http://www.bse.org.uk   )



I apologize if I strayed OT, but if you want to understand the history of herbs

at anytime in the West, you've got to understand it's one component of a much

larger political and economic picture that is actually really scary.  I have a

MS in mathematics,  PhD in theoretical physics, did postdoctoral work in

biochemistry (protein structure and function), have designed  supercomputers,

and have 1000 herbs in my house.  But I value a long life so I stay away from

economically lucrative areas like medicine and risky postings, so this is the

last I say on the subject.   Back to lurking.



Jim



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: asefedita

From: Elfreem@aol.com

Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 21:01:54 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by elfreem@aol.com :



Does anyone have any experience with asefedita for migraines? Apparently,

there's a new product on the market called MigraStop which contains

the herb in a cream and is applied to the naval.



Regards,



Elliot Freeman



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: herbal truth

From: polo@ccp.com

Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 09:24:39 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by Doug Ahart <polo@ccp.com> :



Dr. Acord,

         A superb post as well (also, congratulated Marco). Truth is such 

an elusive perception. I have visited and read many herbal lists and texts. 

Most think they are the only path, biased. Truth never inhabits only one 

dogma.  Joseph Campbell has opened many eyes.



thanks for the post,



doug



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: herbal truth

From: Michael Acord <mpacord@earthlink.net>

Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 17:48:34 -0700

--------

Sent to the herblist by Michael Acord <mpacord@earthlink.net> :



polo@ccp.com wrote:



> Sent to the herblist by Doug Ahart <polo@ccp.com> :

> .... has opened many eyes.

>

> thanks for the post,

>

> doug

>

> SNIP



It was my pleasure.  It is not often that one is afforded the opportunity to

express one's views on such an important subject. And, thank you for your own

contribution.

    Mike Acord



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: East vs. West Cosmos and experiencing herbs

From: Jim <waldpond@interbaun.com>

Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 00:16:02 -0600

--------

Sent to the herblist by Jim <waldpond@interbaun.com> :



Michael Acord wrote:

> As an MD and an acupuncturist, I sometimes find it

>difficult to switch from the Western paradigm to the Eastern, each being based

>on a completely different view of the Cosmos.  



I can understand this statement only if the Western paradigm you refer to is

basically classical mechanics and the object based views built upon it in other

fields.  I think if you explore quantum mechanics you will find a very strong

correlation between the East and West.  It's just that very few people in the

West have any understanding or appreciation for quantum mechanics and the types

of complex structures that are built on it (like humans).



There are a lot of books on quantum mechanics around - the difficulty is that

the simpler ones often leave misunderstandings (as one would expect), and the

more difficult ones are, well, more difficult, with some being oriented towards

just calculating and some more towards the philosophical aspects.  So depending

on your physics and math background, a more difficult but exact book to check

out is Roland Omnes "The Interptretaion of Quantum Mechanics".  I'm not that

familiar with the more popular oriented ones, but I know there is a "picture

book" one with lots of wavefunction pictures (don't know how they represent

phase and spin, etc.) that should trigger some basic deja vu experiences with

the meridian charts.  A book I've just seen a short review of but haven't had

the chance to get yet is "Nature Loves to Hide" by Shimon Malin.  From the

review: "maybe we live not in a Universe of objects, but in a Universe of

experiences".



By the way, one of the symbols for chi basically means "something vital for

life that flows like a soliton".  For those that don't know what a soliton is,

it's a coherent structure of waves like electrons, etc.  See "Acupuncture

Medicine: Its Historical and Clinical Background" by Yoshiaki Omura, p. 23-24



So what has this to do with herbs?   The classical Taoist approach (I give this

because it is the Eastern paradigm I know - I don't want to make assumptions

they are all the same, although I think the roots of Ayurvedic, etc. are based

on similar physiological experiences) relies heavily on the objectification of

experiences.  They are empericists, but unlike Western science, personal

experiences become observables through the meditation practices that make

experiences more objective.  When one is sufficiently detatched, experiences of

herbs and other things become observables.  Like what meridian the herb

enters.  The same observation process is used to determine the "active"

meridian points when doing classical Taoist accupuncture.  (Note - not the same

animal as modern accupuncture, in fact completely different.) 



Anybody interested in what this capability led to should check out Joseph

Needhams and colleagues work on the history of Chinese medicine (and other

areas too).  A short discussion of  a few of these can be found in "The Genius

of China" by Robert Temple (intro by J. Needham), chapter 5.  They were way

ahead of Western medicine in most areas for a long time (knew and treated both

types of diabetes ~600AD, deficiency diseases treated with herbs ~200AD,

beriberi in particular ~800AD, invented vaccination for small pox ~1000AD,

purification and use of sex hormones ~200BC, use of thyroid hormone ~600AD,

etc.) Unfortunately, several things slowly decreased the classical Taoist

culture (being out of favour with the ruling class most of the last 2,000

years,  state support only of scholars that did not do experiments by about1000

AD (and probably negative support of the ones that did experiments),

destruction of the traditional medical practitioners when the Europeans took

control a few hundred years ago, etc.)  



So, if you want to learn herbs in the classical Toaist way, first you learn to

circulate the chi in the meridians in your own body.  This can take years, even

decades.  Maybe some people are lucky and it's shorter.  At some point you will

"experience" a herb.  It will be obvious.  If you have to ask yourself whether

you "experienced" it or not, you didn't.  It will be as obvious as an orgasm

(not similar).   Sometime, probably after this  (months, years, decades?), you

will "experience" the locations of the accupuncture points.  This is when a

classical Taoist would then start learning to use needles.  Except needles are

now illegal in most of the Western dominated world unless you first follow the

modern accupuncture courses.  I just scraped by.  Less than ten years from when

I first started using needles to when they became illegal here.  Now of course

I don't use them, but it is easier when beginning to learn the experiences if

you use needles rather than fingers, IMO.   And if you have experiences that

seem strange, read some quantum mechanics.  And remember what Einstein said: 

"Everything a person learns up to the age of 16 are prejudices one has to

forget to understand reality."



Jim



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: East vs. West Cosmos and experiencing herbs

From: polo@ccp.com

Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 14:30:12 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by Doug Ahart <polo@ccp.com> :



Hey, Jim,

	Cooool post (sort of saying this in the hippie-vain watching a psychedelic 

vision) Finding those "common threads" that weave through various herbal 

theologies is probably the true path to the truth.  Wish I had been good at 

higher math and physics in college.



doug



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: East vs. West Cosmos and experiencing herbs

From: Michael Acord <mpacord@earthlink.net>

Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 14:14:45 -0700

--------

Sent to the herblist by Michael Acord <mpacord@earthlink.net> :



Jim wrote:



> Sent to the herblist by Jim <waldpond@interbaun.com> :

>

> Michael Acord wrote:

> > As an MD and an acupuncturist, I sometimes find it

> >difficult to switch from the Western paradigm to the Eastern, each being based

> >on a completely different view of the Cosmos.

> SNIP



>

>  I just scraped by.  Less than ten years from when

> I first started using needles to when they became illegal here.  Now of course

> I don't use them, but it is easier when beginning to learn the experiences if

> you use needles rather than fingers, IMO.   And if you have experiences that

> seem strange, read some quantum mechanics.  And remember what Einstein said:

> "Everything a person learns up to the age of 16 are prejudices one has to

> forget to understand reality."

>

> Jim

>

>



Generally, I couldn't agree with you more.  I have found Fritjof Capra's book, "The

Tao of Physics," and "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" (sorry, can't remember the author)

of great help in seeing some of  the similarities between East and West.

Unfortunately, the concepts here are generally beyond the scope of experience of

most Western medical practitioners, certainly those trained in Western Scientific

Medicine.  It is interesting that, when most phenomena are studied, from whatever

viewpoint, the same answer often emerges, albeit in different terms.

    Mike Acord



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: R: East vs. West Cosmos and experiencing herbs

From: "marco valussi" <marcobabi@libero.it>

Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 14:44:03 +0200

--------

Sent to the herblist by Marco Valussi <marcobabi@libero.it> :



Hi all,



<<I can understand this statement only if the Western paradigm you refer to

is

basically classical mechanics and the object based views built upon it in

other

fields>>



That is indeed true, but it must be pointed out that there isn't a Western

Paradigm as such.  Paradigms (or exemplars, or discipline matrix) are

referred to communities of scientists, thus it is easier to speak of a

biological paradigm, a physical (as in physics) paradigm and a biomedical

paradigm, and they will all be different, even very different (although they

will obviously share certain features).



<<I think if you explore quantum mechanics you will find a very strong

correlation between the East and West.  It's just that very few people in

the

West have any understanding or appreciation for quantum mechanics and the

types>>



The literature on quantum mechanics is as vast as it is esoteric.  Again

here I think it would be appropriate to point out that there are many

diverse positions as to what exactly quantum mechanics entails in terms of

our description of the world.  First of all we can interpret quantum

mechanics as simply an epistemic position, that is, a theory that described

how we perceive and describe, but which does not require us to hold an

ontology.  A different interpretation holds that quantum mechanics says

something about reality, independent from our perception of it.  For a

discussion on the problem of 'hidden parameters' and on the divergent

interpretations given by Bohm and the School of Copenhagen, see:



Dummett,  M.  Frege: Philosophy of Language.  London, Duckworth, 1973, pp.

603-607.

Hubner, Kurt.  Critique of Scientific Reason  Chicago, University of Chicago

Press, 1983.



Kochen, S. and Specker, E.  'The Problem of Hidden Variables in Quantum

Mechanics'  in  The Logico-Algebraic Approach to Quantum Mechanics.,

Dordrecht, Reidel, 1975, pp. 293-328.

.

Putnam, H.  'Il principio di indeterminazione ed il progresso scientifico'

in  Realismo/Antirealismo, Firenze, La Nuova Italia Editrice, 1995, pp.

143-166



This is obviously important if we want to draw comparisons with Daoism or

Traditional Chinese Medicine, because there is no doubt that in these cases

there is a defined ontology.  If we interpret QM as an ontology, comparison

is easier, but if we read it as just an epistemic position, than it is more

difficult to see the points of contact.



<<By the way, one of the symbols for chi basically means "something vital

for

life that flows like a soliton".  For those that don't know what a soliton

is,

it's a coherent structure of waves like electrons, etc.  See "Acupuncture

Medicine: Its Historical and Clinical Background" by Yoshiaki Omura, p.

23-24>>



This I find a bit strange.  Perhaps a modern reading of chi (Qi) is the one

you suggest, however I find it difficult to believe it can be a classical

reading, given that the term soliton is not part of classical Chinese terms

(by classical I mean from the Han dynasty on).  Obviously one could try a

functional claim (the function played by the term chi in Chinese language

and theory is the same as the function played by the term soliton in English

or physics), and I would be interested in this.  Do you have *primary*

reference for this translation?



<<So what has this to do with herbs?   The classical Taoist approach <snip>

to determine the "active"

meridian points when doing classical Taoist acupuncture.  (Note - not the

same

animal as modern acupuncture, in fact completely different.)

Anybody interested in what this capability led to should check out Joseph

Needhams and colleagues work on the history of Chinese medicine >>



I have some difficulties when faced with terms like Daoist acupuncture or

Daoist Medicine.  I believe these are misnomers, as there aren't data on a

specific Daoist Medicine.  It is the case that Daoism and TCM shared and

'traded' terms and theories, and Daoism (both in its religious and

philosophical form) played an important role in TCM, but it seems to me that

carving out a Daosit medicine is an artificial operation, that does not

correspond to our historical data.  And perhaps there is here a bit of

muddling as to the role of Daoist alchemy in TCM (the 'experiencing of

herbs' as a way or learning their use seems to me a very alchemical

practice, a fascinating one but by any means not the only one available, or

indeed used, by TCM authors and practitioners .  Although internal and

external alchemy did share concepts and term with TCM, and both played

important roles in the conceptualisation of each other, alchemy has to do

with 'prolonging life', which is different from what TCM is about,

correcting imbalances, making the flow of chi, xue, jing etc. better,

expelling or defending from winds, etc.  Obviously the two field are

related, and authors like sun si miao were prolific in both fields, but they

cannot be subsumed under the same category (IMHO).

The way herbs have been categorised in TCM does indeed depend on feeling the

herb, but it has been a very rational operation, and in many instances the

position a herb was given in the complex system depended on theoretical and

rational motives, and was in many instances very artificial, because they

never liked things to escape categorisation (this has happened also in

medieval medicine, were over-theoretical discussion on the nature or

temperament of herbs went on for so long as to leave aside the practical

experience with the herb itself).

The tendency to downplay the role of Confucianism and to stress the role of

Daoism in TCM is typical of Needham and collaborators.  Although the work

done by them is invaluable (it really is), there are some areas of

theoretical discussion which have progressed since they wrote about them,

and there is now a well-based critique of some of the most Marxist

historical approaches.  Works like 'Science and Civilisation in China Volume

II', and 'Celestial lancets', should now be read in conjunction with

Unschuld's 'Medicine in China: a history of ideas', 'Medicine in China: a

history of pharmaceutics', and 'Nan-ching: the classic of difficult issues'.

Also of interest is Donald Harper's  'Early Chinese medical literature: the

mawangdui medical manuscripts'



I hope this was not read as an entirely critical comment, in fact I am

probably more in accord with what said than it seems from what I have

written, but I feel that the issue is a bit more complex - and therefore

more interesting - than it might seem from what the various Capra have

written.



Cheers



Marco



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re:  East vs. West Cosmos and experiencing herbs

From: Jim <waldpond@interbaun.com>

Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:51:45 -0600

--------

Sent to the herblist by Jim <waldpond@interbaun.com> :



Marco wrote:

>I have some difficulties when faced with terms like Daoist acupuncture or

>Daoist Medicine. 



The term I used was "classical Daoism".  This is used by some Warring States to

Han period scholars to refer to the school of thought delineated by the Huang

Ti Nei Jing Su Wen (Yellow Emperor's Book of Internal Medicine) and the Dao De

Jing.  Others use Huang-Lao Daoism to refer to this school.  (The Nei Jing is

from 200-100 BC, although it clearly stem from practices going back much

further.  The Dao De Jin is from about 400-300 BC.  What are usually considered

the main religious schools of Daoism, with rituals, etc. start around 200 AD) 

And the word Doaism with no modifier can mean any of probably thousands of

schools of thought by now.



I should have made this clearer in my original email, as many probably aren't

aware of this.  There are numerous arguments about whether this school should

be considered religious, philosophical, superstitious, emperical, medical,

etc.   The religious/philosophical/medical split arguments mainly stem from the

West's spirit/mind/body trilogy division:  a concept completely unknown, and

incompatible with,  the point of view  of this school.   Shen is often

translated as spirit, but it is more a type of chi than the western concept of

spirit.  There are no gods, dieties, liturgy or ritual in these texts, AFAIK. 

Not even mythical beasts like in Chuang Tzu.  The superstitious/emperical split

depends on, well, empericism.  And the West has only begun to make valid

measurements in the last decade.  (The first reasonable test I know of some

Chinese herbalists was done in Australia a few years ago.  The first

measurement using MRI of a person undergoing accupuncture was done by a

physicist in California, again only a year or three ago.)



The first words spoken in the Nei Jing  by Ch'i Po, the teacher or advisor are

"In ancient times those people who understood Dao patterned themselves upon the

Yin and the Yang .....".  (Ilza Veith's translation).  Yin and Yang are the

names of the meridians.  Specifically each ordinary meridian has a name with

three parts:



hand or body  :   greater, 'medium', or lesser   :  Yin or Yang



for a total of 12 = 2 x 3 x 2 meridians.  The modern English use of stomach,

spleen, etc. meridians is a modern construct.



The main point at the end of my post, namely "learning to circulate the chi in

the meridians", IMO is just a different way of stating the practice quoted

above from the Nei Jing.  IMO the elimination of the Daoist practices, etc.

from this classical Dao or Huang Lao school in order to form the modern form

of  "Traditional Chinese Medicine" (TCM) is throwing out the most important

part.  IMO, it leaves information that one can memorize and replicate

mechanically, and throws out the technology that lead to the discovery of the

information in the first place.  I think it is also the reason that I have

never met anybody who has had both classical accupuncture and modern (TCM)

accupuncture who has ever gone back for modern accupuncture treatments.  IMO it

is at least partly why later on TCM herbology gave rise to:



>"the

>position a herb was given in the complex system depended on theoretical and

>rational motives, and was in many instances very artificial, because they

>never liked things to escape categorisation " 



This is why I used the term classical Daoism and not TCM.  They are different.



I agree that Needham is not the last word on the historical aspect.  But I

don't think anybody is at this point.  Archaeology in China is at the beginning

stages, with major finds every few years.  And, IMO, the ignoring or

downplaying of aspects of what is available is common.   The first page of both

the Nei Jing and the Dao De Jing (the mawangdui manuscript, which is the oldest

complete version - Goudian finds are older but fragments) talk about aspects of

a practice or practices related to "following Dao" or "understanding Dao".  The

characters for Dao and De both contain symbols indicating some aspect of

behaviour, or action.  The symbol for Dao has a symbol for a human which has

two components.  The lower component is three boxes, remarkably like the triple

burner  diagram from the Ling SHu Su Wn Whieh Yao shown in Ilza Veith's Nei

Jing translation (p. 27).   IMO the Nei Jing is the How To manual, and the Dao

De Jing is the This Is What Happens if You Do manual.  (A simplification, I

agree.)   



The words of Ch'i Po which follow the ones I quoted above are "and they lived

in harmony with the arts of divination".  IMO this is a poor translation.  If

the two characters translated as divination are looked up in Mathews' Chinese

English Dictionary, they have some symbols that mean "best direction".  So,

IMO, a better translation is  "they lived in harmony with the art of

determining the best direction".  



Please note this is my opinion.  There are many others.  And there will never

be complete agreement between people that want to understand classical Daoism

or its offspring in a purely intellectual, mind only fashion, and those that

use both this and the mind/body practices that lead to experiences.  The Dao De

Jing makes many  comments about intellectual understanding not being

sufficient  for a complete 'understanding' of nature.  And we know that no

mathematical theory can be consistent and complete (roughly speaking), based on

Godel's and subsequent work.



Doug wrote:

>Finding those "common threads" that weave through various herbal 

>theologies is probably the true path to the truth. 



I don't want to claim any truths here, but I agree that there is some deep

common aspect of different indigenous herbal practices, based on

"experiences".   There are indigenous practicers that have written (or at least

their words are translated) into things like "felt the plant calling".  I've

read of instances where they contract the disease of the patient and go walking

through the wilds to "feel" the plant that's needed.  And of course, classical

Daoism, has its roots in indigenous practices, some of which are shamanic.  



Marco wrote:

>here I think it would be appropriate to point out that there are many

>diverse positions as to what exactly quantum mechanics entails in terms of

>our description of the world.



This depends on the scale that you are tallking about.  From the atomic level

down, there is little disagreement. Quantum field theory (the combination of

quantum mechanics and the special theory of relativity) is the most accurate

theory we have, in the sense that it predicts quantities which agree with

experiment to more decimal places than any other theory, including classical

mechanics. 



There's also little dispute for small molecules.  Reasonably accurate

computations agree with experiment and have predictive capability.



Some disagreement starts to arise with large biological molecules.  But IMO

this is mainly due to the sheer computational difficulty of using quantum

mechanics to model these systems.  Many researchers used classical, ad hoc,

models for 20 to 30 years now to solve the protein folding problem.  IBM has

recently spent $100 million on this project.  So there is clear indication, but

not proof, that quantum mechanics plays a fundamental role in this process. 

There is however, clear proof that quantum mechanics is used in an essential

way by biological processes involving large molecules.  Photosynthesis uses

quantum effects to transport an electron a long distance along a chain,  and

this process was only measured in the last decade or so.  See also "Tunneling

in Biological Systems", ed: B. Chance, D.C. CeVault, et al.   IMO it is certain

the quantum effects are observable at the biological molecule stage.



Above this becomes hard to prove one way or another at the present.  There are

certainly cellular structures that one can make a good argument that they use

quantum processes in a fundamental way.



By the time one gets to humans and their experiences I don't know of any proof,

just philosophical hand waving.  But IMO it seems likely, from an intellectual

perspective, that the more complex an organization of matter, and the longer

that organization takes to evolve, the more likely that it is using quantum

mechanics in a fundamental way to achieve that complexity.  I see dividing

things into epistemic or ontologic views as not relating to the fundamental

question - do some large scale structures such as humans use quantum mechanics

in a fundamental way, or will it be possible some day to model them completely

without quantum mechanics?  I don't think these questions are currently

answerable in the only way that would satisfy a physicist - predicatability.  



My main point is simply that if one tries the experiential approach of

"balancing Yin and Yang" to herbology and other things, and strange things seem

to happen, knowing some quantum mechanics can help it not seem so strange.  At

least that was my experience.  If I had not understood quantum mechanics, I

could see how I could have made weird 'mystical' interpretations of what was

going on.



I wrote:

><<By the way, one of the symbols for chi basically means "something vital

>for

>life that flows like a soliton".  For those that don't know what a soliton

>is,

>it's a coherent structure of waves like electrons, etc.  See "Acupuncture

>Medicine: Its Historical and Clinical Background" by Yoshiaki Omura, p.

>23-24>>



Marco wrote:

>This I find a bit strange.  Perhaps a modern reading of chi (Qi) is the one

>you suggest, however I find it difficult to believe it can be a classical

>reading, given that the term soliton is not part of classical Chinese terms

>(by classical I mean from the Han dynasty on).  



In the interest of brevity, I merged two things here.  Omura's etymology is

based on "The Explanation of the Origin of the Written Word"  by Shu Chan

written during the period 100-121AD of the Han Dynasty.   The final wordsOmura

uses to translate chi are "the flow of something that is the source of vital

energy to humans or animals".  In the analysis preceeding this, he shows how

the character for "flow" derives from a character consisting of three parallel

wavy lines, the tails of which are directed toward the right and downard.   The

original meaning he says is "flow of something which is difficult to grasp".  

Flow of water is three wavy lines, the tails of which are directed to the left

side, and a slight variation is used as "river".  Another bigger variation is

used as water.



Of course the word soliton was not known then, or maybe to Omura, but anybody

that has experienced chi moving through the meridians will understand the

parallel between that experience and the concept of a coherent wave that moves

along a channel (analogy to a river valley here).  Think light pulses on an

optical fibre, for example.   So the translation of the three coherent,

parallel, wavy lines in the character for chi to soliton is my interpretation. 

I apologize for any misunderstanding my brevity caused - but I think it is a

reasonable translation if one takes into account that the people that wrote the

character for chi had the experience of it.



> but I feel that the issue is a bit more complex - and therefore

>more interesting - than it might seem from what the various Capra have

>written.



Which is why I never mentioned Capra or similar.  I'm not familiar with his

later book (is it the Wu-Li Masters?), but in the earlier work he seems to

discuss mainly the philosophical aspects of different cultures with little if

any attention to the emperical observations in the Nei Jing or the QM aspects

that they parallel.



I did mention Omnes because he presents Jauch's quantum logic approach along

with other interpretations.



>I hope this was not read as an entirely critical comment



Not at all.  I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say.  I don't think of

classical Daoism, or anything else, as 'proverbial truth', 'absolute doctrine'

or anything similar.  Everything that anybody ever writes is in some later

time,  at least, going to be seen to contain errors, misconceptions or

limitations of some sort.  And given the complexity of understanding something

written such a long time ago by people with such a different outlook on life,

we'll probably never know completely what was meant by at least parts of the

texts.



My main point is that there is an experiential approach to herbology (and

accupuncture, etc.) one approach (indigenous, Ayurvedic have others?) is fairly

up front (first page) in the Nei Jing.  There is no need to 'believe' or 'have

faith' in anything or whatever to try it, and, IMO, it doesn't contradict a

Western scientific view if that view includes QM.   In my experience, and

others, it takes a lot of time and effort, so it's not for everyone, or maybe

hardly anyone, but I have found it more effort and more rewarding than my PhD.



Doug wrote:

>Wish I had been good at higher math and physics in college.



Classical Daoists didn't know this higher math either, so it's not a

prerequisite.  :) 



Jim  



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: East vs. West Cosmos and experiencing herbs

From: Elizabeth Scotten <bek@timelessremedies.com>

Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 07:41:29 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by Elizabeth Scotten <timelesstree@earthlink.net> :



Thank You Thank You Thank You!!!!!



This whole thread and topic has been fascinating and exactly what i need at

this time! can any of you recommend good reading? please feel free to e-mail

me privately with this. I am first and foremost a biologist, but i have been

trying to find a way to integrate my "analytical" way of thinking to my

experiences lately. I have always been able to "see" or feel plant energies

and feel areas of imbalance in the physical body. Recently, in the past year

or so, i have been working with Reiki - both Usui System and most recently

Shambala, and my experiences have intensified. I believe very strongly that

one needs to integrate mind/body/spirit in healing and that imbalance in the

spirit has a definite correlation to dis-ease. My inner conflict often

revolves around my need for more information on a intellectual/clinical

level versus what i know in the center of my being to be true. i am yet a

babe on this path and am craving more information.



Once again, thank you all for this dialogue and i look forward to reading

more!



-bek

-- 

bek@timelessremedies.com

http://www.timelessremedies.com



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Shipping fresh herbs/ Planter's wart

From: "Becky Mauldin" <beckymauldin@hotmail.com>

Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 16:17:39 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by Becky Mauldin <beckymauldin@hotmail.com> :



Hello,



If I need to ship an herb in the mail and it needs to be used fresh, is

there a way to temporarily preserve it (like in alcohol or vinegar??)?  I

have a relative that has a planter's wart and I have used wood sorrel

successfully and would like to ship it to him.  But the juices of the

plant must still be viable when he gets it...is there a way to do this? 

If not, what recommendations can you give me for planter's warts?  He has

been using the only thing he has: echinacea tincture and is seeing some

improvements...



Thanks,

Becky



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Shipping fresh herbs/ Planter's wart

From: Herbgrow30@aol.com

Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:32:22 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by herbgrow30@aol.com :



In a message dated 7/8/01 4:18:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 

beckymauldin@hotmail.com writes:



<<   But the juices of the

 plant must still be viable when he gets it...is there a way to do this?  >>



Sure Becky -



Just put the plant in a pot a bit big for it.  Don't cram it into one.  Give 

it a good drink of rescue remedy diluted in a weak chamomile tea.  Wrap it up 

in clean newspaper and wet the newspaper with the tea also.  Pack carefully 

and ship out overnight.  Mine do very well that way.  When it gets there 

instruct him to do the rescue remedy in Chamomile tea treatment to prevent 

transplant shock if he is going to grow it.



Warmly -

Mary



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: FDA outcry about comfrey

From: "Kerry's Herbals" <jclarke1@mn.rr.com>

Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 15:51:12 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by Kerry L. <jclarke1@mn.rr.com> :



"Interesting" article a friend of mine sent to me:



http://www.msnbc.com/news/597162.asp?0si=-&cp1=1#BODY



Also, someone once mentioned that there is a such thing as PA-free comfrey.

Does anyone have any more information about this? Anyone know where one

could get it in bulk, and does anyone have any thoughts about it in general?



Kerry



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: RE: FDA outcry about comfrey

From: "GardenThyme Lady" <dblan@netusa1.net>

Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 08:23:47 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by GardenThyme~Lady <dblan@netusa1.net> :



I had previously heard comfrey wasn't good for your liver if taken

internally.  However, why would they try to stop people from using it

topically?  Surely you wouldn't absorb enough to harm a major organ such as

the liver.  This herb has been used for centuries for healing sores,

bruises, sprains, and broken bones, it amazes me how they (the FDA) try to

put down the use of herbs every chance they get.

Dee

"The Gardenthyme Lady"



Subject: FDA outcry about comfrey



Sent to the herblist by Kerry L. <jclarke1@mn.rr.com> :



"Interesting" article a friend of mine sent to me:



http://www.msnbc.com/news/597162.asp?0si=-&cp1=1#BODY



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: FDA outcry about comfrey

From: "Rosemari Roast" <walkinthewoods@5Pillars.com>

Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:30:38 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by Rosemari Roast <walkinthewoods@5Pillars.com> :



Re: Sent to the herblist by GardenThyme~Lady <dblan@netusa1.net> :

>

> I had previously heard comfrey wasn't good for your liver if taken

> internally.  However, why would they try to stop people from using it

> topically?  Surely you wouldn't absorb enough to harm a major organ such

as

> the liver.  This herb has been used for centuries for healing sores,

> bruises, sprains, and broken bones, it amazes me how they (the FDA) try to

> put down the use of herbs every chance they get.

> Dee

> "The Gardenthyme Lady"



This makes me crazy. The FDA outcry is directed (I hope) to the commercial

herbal industry, where folks purchase standard commercial products and

self-administer without responsible research.



I have used Symphytum internally and externally for many years. When using

internally, I have never used it for more than a two week period for anyone

in good general health (and no liver issues). To my way of understanding,

short term use is effective and safe ~ and allows the body to cleanse itself

post Symphytum use (which other herbs can support, as well).



That's my two-cents.



With Delight,



rose



www.geocities.com/walk_inthe_woods



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: FDA outcry about comfrey

From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 09:02:26 +0300

--------

Sent to the herblist by Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi> :



"Rosemari Roast" <walkinthewoods@5Pillars.com> wrote to

herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu:



>Re: Sent to the herblist by GardenThyme~Lady <dblan@netusa1.net> :

>> I had previously heard comfrey wasn't good for your liver if taken

>> internally.  However, why would they try to stop people from using it

>> topically?  Surely you wouldn't absorb enough to harm a major organ such as

>> the liver.  This herb has been used for centuries for healing sores,

>> bruises, sprains, and broken bones, it amazes me how they (the FDA) try to

>> put down the use of herbs every chance they get.

>

>This makes me crazy. The FDA outcry is directed (I hope) to the commercial

>herbal industry, where folks purchase standard commercial products and

>self-administer without responsible research.

>

>I have used Symphytum internally and externally for many years. When using

>internally, I have never used it for more than a two week period for anyone

>in good general health (and no liver issues). To my way of understanding,

>short term use is effective and safe ~ and allows the body to cleanse itself

>post Symphytum use (which other herbs can support, as well).



Comfrey might have been thought safe for ages, but the trouble with liver

damaging pyrrolizidine alkaloids (PAs) is, you only see the damage with a biopsy

of liver tissue - or an autopsy. That kind of damage is insidious and cannot be

expected to be caught by anybody without a laboratory; ie. the hundreds of years

of safe use -- aren't.



So. If you use plants which contain high levels of PAs you're probably

shortening your life, perhaps a year, perhaps a decade. The liver is the most

important organ we have, health-wise (at least, I find myself saying "strenghten

the liver" all the time, these days) (another would be "resolve the exudate" -

heh. Anybody recognize that one?), so if you damage that, _you_ are not well.



Veno-occlusive liver disease is not something you could expect from things that

do not act as catalysts like hepatotoxic PAs. (Note, there are lots of PAs. Only

some of them are toxic. The ones that are, are so in minute amounts.)



If you _have_ to use comfrey, use species with low amounts of PAs. One such

would be Symphytum tuberosum.

A species with _LOADS_ of PAs would be Symphytum x uplandicum.

There's far more PAs in comfrey roots than comfrey leaf, in the species that

I've seen numbers on.



PAs will be absorbed through an open wound. As comfrey is used for wound

healing, by definition put on open wounds, use is therefore problematic.



Like I've said elsewhere, my take on this? Use calendula and/or plantago. They

contain no PAs, and are as good woundhealers as comfrey. Add some mineral-rich

plants to compensate for the silica etc. you'd have gotten in comfrey - that'd

be oat straw (green) and horsetail (Equisetum arvense), for silica and minerals,

and things like nettles, raspberry leaf, Alchemilla leaf, for just minerals.

Note that broken bones heal faster in the presence of silica, so drink your oat

straw tea... other tissues don't need that as much.



Hope that clears up some things.



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

hetta@saunalahti.fi     Helsinki, Finland     http://ibiblio.org/herbmed

  The HerbFAQs are   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/medi-cont.html

     in new spots:   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/culi-cont.html

Herb FAQs, pictures, classic texts, articles, archives, plant names  ...



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: FDA outcry about comfrey

From: "Phosphor" <phosphor@hotkey.net.au>

Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 16:19:44 +0300

--------

Sent to the herblist by Phosphor <phosphor@hotkey.net.au> :



> Comfrey might have been thought safe for ages, but the trouble with liver

> damaging pyrrolizidine alkaloids (PAs) is, you only see the damage with a

biopsy

> of liver tissue -



as rosemari said, if you use for 2 weeks max there's little danger of

damage, in the right dosage. comfrey leaf is far less dangerous than the

same quantity of panadol.

.

> So. If you use plants which contain high levels of PAs you're probably

> shortening your life, perhaps a year, perhaps a decade.



the impression i have is that the issue of dosage is critical - the PAs are

metabolised in a given time frame. its when there is too much that they

latch onto liver cells.  there's no documented cases of someone getting

liver disease from 10 grams of fresh comfrey.



.

> There's far more PAs in comfrey roots than comfrey leaf, in the species

that

> I've seen numbers on.



there is also a lot less in the mature leaf than the young leaf.



> Like I've said elsewhere, my take on this? Use calendula and/or plantago.

They

> contain no PAs, and are as good woundhealers as comfrey. Add some

mineral-rich

> plants to compensate for the silica etc. you'd have gotten in comfrey -

that'd

> be oat straw (green) and horsetail (Equisetum arvense), for silica and

minerals,

> and things like nettles, raspberry leaf, Alchemilla leaf, for just

minerals.



thes herbs are very mild wound healers compared with comfrey. Ive seen a dog

with flesh sheared off down the the leg bone, surrouding flesh going grey.

the day after a poultice of fresh comfrey leaf was put it it had turned pink

and a clear membrane was forming.  it healed 100%, and no infection

occurred.



Andrew



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Goldenseal berries

From: Susan Strasser <strasser@udel.edu>

Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:35:42 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by Susan Strasser <sustras@attglobal.net> :



Hello all,



I have a few nice fat goldenseal berries.  Can I just leave them on the

plants and let nature do its thing and expect baby plants, or is there

something I should do to help the process along?



Thanks -- Susan Strasser



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Valerian tests

From: "Poutinen, Jay" <jpoutine@uwsp.edu>

Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:12:25 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by poutinen, jay <jpoutine@uwsp.edu> :



Among the seventeen products tested, only nine passed. Out of the eight that

failed, four products had no detectable levels of the expected valerenic

acids and another four had only about half the expected or claimed amounts. 



http://www.consumerlab.com/results/valerian.asp



http://www.consumerlab.com/



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Valerian tests

From: "Kerry's Herbals" <jclarke1@mn.rr.com>

Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:32:50 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by Kerry L. <jclarke1@mn.rr.com> :



Interesting! Does anyone know how one would go about getting their tinctures

tested for strength?



Kerry



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Valerian tests

From: "Scott and Aliceann Carlton" <carlton@midrivers.com>

Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:08:22 -0600

--------

Sent to the herblist by Aliceann and Scott Carlton <carlton@midrivers.com> :



Sent to the herblist by Kerry L. <jclarke1@mn.rr.com> :



Interesting! Does anyone know how one would go about getting their tinctures

tested for strength?



Kerry



Well, candidly, I wouldn't bother.  If one makes one's own formulations one

should already know how it works or will work.  This is a very complex

issue, of course, but let's examine the background purpose of such analysis.

If you wish to sell commercial lots of pre-packaged herbs then by all means

you will have to satisfy the powers that be (in US particularly) who have

entered the fray by initially presupposing that herbal remedies and

supplements are quackery at any level.  Then to "prove" it, or at least

demonstrate to the satisfaction of regulatory Western-based Medicine, they

demand a quantification of data.  Such demands have led to the concept of

"standardized" herbs and herbal formulations predicated on one or, at most,

a very few compounds presumed present in the herb.  Where samples of herb

contain an amount greater than the amount upon which a "standard" is based

that herb needs to be reduced in potency ... that is extended or otherwise

cut ... but the specific 'filler' (diluent) isn't stipulated.



As far as commercial preparations 'failing' the tests?  Keep in mind that

small companies are competing against large, well-established pharm.

houses -- many of these companies are not in this for the long haul but for

a quick return.  They will extend (dilute) their products as much as

possible until someone runs the tests and they can apologize for 'someone's'

having made an error in formulation.  Maybe they used the metric system on

one set of figures and the 'English" system on another and forgot to

convert??  Hey!   NASA's done it... why not?



It's part of the pre-regulatory storm ... and, if you are truly determined

to quantify your tinctures you can discuss analysis with a nearby university

or, perhaps, private lab.  Be advised, though, such analyses are, in my

experience, quite costly.  Good luck.



Scott Carlton

carlton@midrivers.com



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Bell's Palsey

From: gloria scholbe <globird@tenmegs.com>

Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:47:42 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by gloria scholbe <globird@tenmegs.com> :



Hi,

Can anyone recommend any herbs besides echinacea and St. John's wort for

treating Bell's Palsey?



thanks, gloria



--

Send Mail: mailto:globird@lgd.org?subject=PERSONAL



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Bell's Palsey

From: hallie scher <inner_be@yahoo.com>

Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:27:07 -0700 (PDT)

--------

Sent to the herblist by hallie scher <inner_be@yahoo.com> :



Yes, I have had good results with two clients of mine

using a combination, St. Johns Wort, Gota Kola, Ginkgo

Biloba, in addition to, supplements of, organic

omega-3 fatty acids, E and C, Lecthin and Flower

essences. I also would look at diet and stress factor

involved.



Good luck,blessings

Hallie



Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail

http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Macropiper

From: hkobayas <hkobayas@students.uiuc.edu>

Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:22:14 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by Hideka Kobayashi <hkobayas@students.uiuc.edu> :



Does anybody know how to obtain either plants or seeds of Macropiper in US?



Hideka Kobayashi

Dept. of Natural Resources 

and Environmental Sciences

1115 Plant Science Laboratory

1201 S. Dorner Dr. 

Urbana, IL 61801



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Macropiper

From: GerstenbergerA@aol.com

Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 23:18:49 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by GerstenbergerA@aol.com :



University of Connecticut has it in their conservatory, see



http://florawww.eeb.uconn.edu/acc_num/199900579.html



go to their home page for contact info, they may be able to advise you



Ann

Garden by Garden



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Where is HERE?

From: "Eleanor K. Sommer" <eksommer@gator.net>

Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 11:39:27 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by Eleanor K. Sommer <eksommer@gator.net> :



I have a favor to ask of the listserv members. When you write "here" in an

email, could you please name a state, region, or country. Very often I

cannot make out the location from the email address, and if I have lost the

thread because I have too hastily skimmed previous messages or not received

the previous summary at all (probably my server's fault), I have not a clue

where HERE is so the information makes little sense. In talking about herb

regulations and growing conditions, WHERE is pertinent. Thanks. Ellie (in

Florida!)



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Pyrrolizidine alkaloid review online

From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:19:36 +0300

--------

Sent to the herblist by Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi> :



here: http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/PAs/PAs.html



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

hetta@saunalahti.fi     Helsinki, Finland     http://ibiblio.org/herbmed

  The HerbFAQs are   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/medi-cont.html

     in new spots:   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/culi-cont.html

Herb FAQs, pictures, classic texts, articles, archives, plant names  ...



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Virus, was Re: help computre

From: cadfile@juno.com

Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 12:26:21 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by Stan Mills <cadfile@juno.com> :



I have not had any trouble in this dept. I think it is because I use a

firewall from Zone Labs "Zone Alarm" (http://www.zonelabs.com) and a

'doorman' called AdWatch from http://lavasoft.com . The first is free the

second is $13.00. They work like a dream at keeping nefarious programs

out of your computer.



Stan

"Cadfile"

cadfile@juno.com



> The reason why it's doing this is because you have an e-mail virus. I 

> know

> Kerry



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: The virus that abounds here...

From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 09:05:51 +0300

--------

Sent to the herblist by Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi> :



... are, it seems, especially insidious.



Here's what you don't do: try to open files which end in .pif, .scr, or .e_xe

(but there are others, too ...) if you're on a windows machine. Sure, you get an

error message, when you try to open this .pif (or .scr) file, but you are, in

fact, infected. 

This recent one is merrily churning out emails to all kinds of people in

response to emails you haven't even opened yet. It has also opened a backdoor to

your PC - people in the know can exploit this and play havoc with your files

while you're online. Or download all kinds of information from your HD.



Here's what you do: get rid of it. 



<snipped from another list>

  Apply Norton antiviral software or equivalent latest updates. You 

  can read about the virus on 

  http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/pf/w32.badtrans.13312@mm.html

  which contains detailed descriptions as to how to disinfect if you 

  have attempted opened an att*chment and get an error message - too 

  late! The virus is not fatal but needs to be disinfected before it 

  affects your system.



  you should also learn how to disable scripting if you are a windoze 

  user, then worms of this kind cannot auto-execute.

</end of this snip>



Here's how you disable scripting, if you're on a windows machine, and use things

like outlook express, NS or other .html-prone programs to read your email:



<snipped from a third list>

  However, other worms and trojans use VBS <visual basic script> scripts and do

  NOT need to be opened.  The fix? Disable VBS scripting in email by renaming

  the file



    "C:\windows\wscript.ex_e" to something like 

    "C:\windows\wscrip.e_xe" 



  This allows you to disable VBS email threats and at the same time prevent

  other people from being infected through your email. You can also delete it

  but in the rare case where you would want to run VBS scripts, you will be able

  to go back and rename it to the original name. I have had this file disabled

  for an entire year and haven't missed it yet...plus the worm was unable to

  execute due to this precaution.

</end of snip>



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

hetta@saunalahti.fi     Helsinki, Finland     http://ibiblio.org/herbmed

  The HerbFAQs are   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/medi-cont.html

     in new spots:   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/culi-cont.html

Herb FAQs, pictures, classic texts, articles, archives, plant names  ...



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: The virus that abounds here...

From: cadfile@juno.com

Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 16:11:06 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by Stan Mills <cadfile@juno.com> :



If you use the free firewall from http://www.zonelabs.com you won't have

any 'backdoors'.

Also the $13.00 'Internet doorman' Ad-Watch from

http://www.lavasoftUSA.com will keep a lot of stuff out of your computer

while you are on line.

A trip to http://grc.com would be of interest.



Stan

"Cadfile"

cadfile@juno.com



>From Henriette:

>It has also opened a backdoor to your PC - people in the know can

exploit this and play havoc >with your files while you're online. Or

download all kinds of information from your HD.



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: The virus that abounds here...

From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:05:25 +0300

--------

Sent to the herblist by Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi> :



cadfile@juno.com wrote to herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu:



>If you use the free firewall from http://www.zonelabs.com you won't have

>any 'backdoors'.



http://www.zonelabs.com doesn't work. http://www.download.com with a search for

"zonelabs" works. I expect other software sites have it, too.



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

hetta@saunalahti.fi     Helsinki, Finland     http://ibiblio.org/herbmed

  The HerbFAQs are   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/medi-cont.html

     in new spots:   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/culi-cont.html

Herb FAQs, pictures, classic texts, articles, archives, plant names  ...



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Questions re: flavors of accreditation in US

From: "Karen GM Shaich" <weilgi@eudoramail.com>

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:19:18 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by weilgi@eudoramail.com :



I see from Henrietta's wonderful site that there is such thing in the US as an "ND", a Doctorate of Naturopathy.  From what I gather, this is an a real accreditation that has some actual meaning. The state I live in does not recognize it, but, if it is a mark of a professional, then it's what I would seek, regardless. There is an herbal school not far from me that says their program prepares a student for professional standing with the American Herbalists Guild. What's that?  Is this is a serious professional distinction?  How does it compare to being an "ND", particularly in a state that does not recognize ND's?



Thanks for any insights-



Karen



Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Questions re: flavors of accreditation in US

From: Art Sackett <medherb@artsackett.com>

Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 02:55:20 -0600

--------

Sent to the herblist by Art Sackett <medherb@artsackett.com> :



On Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 04:19:18PM -0400, Karen GM Shaich wrote:



> I see from Henrietta's wonderful site that there is such thing in 

> the US as an "ND", a Doctorate of Naturopathy.  From what I gather,

> this is an a real accreditation that has some actual meaning.



Firstly, I'm just a layman, rusty after several years of pursuing 

other, less meaningful goals... I may be way off-base. I waited a few 

days to see if anyone else would offer up an answer, no one has, so 

here I am.



It's my understanding that an ND is a licensed physician who has jumped 

through all of the hoops required to be a regular doctor, who has then 

gone on to study and practice as an herbalist. I could be wrong.



> The state I live in does not recognize it, but, if it is a mark of a 

> professional, then it's what I would seek, regardless.



If my understanding is correct, that's a lofty, admirable goal! Good 

luck to you.



> There is an herbal school not far from me that says their program 

> prepares a student for professional standing with the American 

> Herbalists Guild. What's that? 



It's likely best to let them tell you, themselves:



http://www.americanherbalistsguild.com/



> Is this is a serious professional distinction? 



I'd be curious to know how the community at large feels about the AHG, 

their certification program, etc.



In my current line of work, there are scads of self-appointed 

certifying agencies, most of which are fronts for folks with things to 

sell. Some of the play at mentor programs, but many of the mentors were 

students just a few weeks before being elevated. I'd hope to avoid 

those kinds of outfits.



I hope you find the information you require -- if it's not too much 

bother to share some of it, I'd not mind hearing about it after you've 

formed your own opinions!



-- Art



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Questions re: flavors of accreditation in US

From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 14:06:27 +0300

--------

Sent to the herblist by Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi> :



Art Sackett <medherb@artsackett.com> wrote to herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu:



>It's my understanding that an ND is a licensed physician who has jumped 

>through all of the hoops required to be a regular doctor, who has then 

>gone on to study and practice as an herbalist. I could be wrong.



An ND is a person who's gone to the trouble to go to an ND school. All four

years of it. Granted, it _is_ pretty close to your normal MD school, but you're

not an MD with addons when you're an ND. Which is why it isn't recognized in all

states in the US.



>It's likely best to let them tell you, themselves:

>http://www.americanherbalistsguild.com/



Except that Clayton (yes, the diploma mill) has paid them enough to have a link

on their homepage under "members". Feh. Money talks, even to the AHG, it seems.



>> Is this is a serious professional distinction? 

>I'd be curious to know how the community at large feels about the AHG, 

>their certification program, etc.



Quoting from http://www.americanherbalistsguild.com/GUILDMEM.HTM :



  Professional Members have had their credentials evaluated by the Admissions

  Committee of the AHG through our Peer Review Process. Applicants must complete

  the AHG application, submit a personal and professional biography outlining

  their experience and training in the field of herbal medicine, have at least

  four years experience working with clients, provide three case histories, and

  provide three letters of reference from professional herbalists (or other

  health professionals proficient in herbalism). Also see AHG Educational

  Guidelines. 



Certainly, the "AHG" after the name tells you that you've a practising herbalist

in front of you. Other than that? Shrug.



>In my current line of work, there are scads of self-appointed 

>certifying agencies, most of which are fronts for folks with things to 

>sell. Some of the play at mentor programs, but many of the mentors were 

>students just a few weeks before being elevated. I'd hope to avoid 

>those kinds of outfits.



Avoid Clayton, then. And all other correspondence programs which promise you a

ND by mail order. Because that's the fake NDs. The "real" NDs have always had

hands-on schools.



Cheers

Henriette 



-- 

hetta@saunalahti.fi     Helsinki, Finland     http://ibiblio.org/herbmed

  The HerbFAQs are   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/medi-cont.html

     in new spots:   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/culi-cont.html

Herb FAQs, pictures, classic texts, articles, archives, plant names  ...



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Questions re: flavors of accreditation in US

From: Art Sackett <medherb@artsackett.com>

Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 05:43:51 -0600

--------

Sent to the herblist by Art Sackett <medherb@artsackett.com> :



On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 02:06:27PM +0300, Henriette Kress wrote:

> 

> An ND is a person who's gone to the trouble to go to an ND school. All four

> years of it. Granted, it _is_ pretty close to your normal MD school, but you're

> not an MD with addons when you're an ND. Which is why it isn't recognized in all

> states in the US.



Ohhhhh... thanks for clearing that one up for me. Now I have to unlearn 

the malarkey I was carrying around. Wish I could remember where I got 

it -- maybe it was just faulty memory.



BTW, Henriette, thanks for the great web site, and the mailing list, 

too. You're helping me recover long unused memories, and adding in 

quite a few (interesting) new ones, too.



-- Art



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Questions re: flavors of accreditation in US

From: "Phosphor" <phosphor@hotkey.net.au>

Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 00:02:20 +0300

--------

Sent to the herblist by Phosphor <phosphor@hotkey.net.au> :



> Avoid Clayton, then. And all other correspondence programs which promise

you a

> ND by mail order. Because that's the fake NDs. The "real" NDs have always

had

> hands-on schools.



all schools tend to institutionalise mediocrisy.  Like any discipline,

medicine flourishes under free enquiry, and when you establish a clientele

through your own skill you contribute much more to the discipline than is

obtained through 'authorisation' from a school.



if a school is very good, it is through the inspiration of an inspirational

individual, such as Michael Moore.  unfortunatety these indiividuals

eventually retire, and the school fades. Was always thus.  Moves to further

regulate naturopathy will be its downfall, as it will then come under more

quasi-governmental control.



Hippocrates founded his medical revolution when he fled to Cos having been

persecuted for his nascient heretical stance.



Andrew



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Questions re: flavors of accreditation in US

From: May Terry <mterry@snet.net>

Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 10:34:33 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by May Terry <mterry@snet.net> :



Phosphor wrote:



> > Avoid Clayton, then. And all other correspondence programs which promise

> you a

> > ND by mail order. Because that's the fake NDs. The "real" NDs have always

> had

> > hands-on schools.

>

> all schools tend to institutionalise mediocrisy.  Like any discipline,

> medicine flourishes under free enquiry, and when you establish a clientele

> through your own skill you contribute much more to the discipline than is

> obtained through 'authorisation' from a school.



I think that's a bit of a generalization.  Would you want the M.D. who's

removing your brain tumor to have established *his* credentials by reputation?

Or the N.D. who is treating your Lyme disease?



> if a school is very good, it is through the inspiration of an inspirational

> individual, such as Michael Moore.  unfortunatety these indiividuals

> eventually retire, and the school fades. Was always thus.  Moves to further

> regulate naturopathy will be its downfall, as it will then come under more

> quasi-governmental control.



Maybe so.  I'm not necessarily a fan of certification for herbalists.  I think

there's a place, however, for standards and competencies, and I think they're

entirely appropriate for N.D.s.



May

--

May the light shine through us and on us and in us.  May we die each night and

be born each morning that the wonder of life should not escape us.  May we love

and laugh and enter lightly into each other's hearts.  May we live forever.

May we live forever.   ---Egyptian Book of the Dead



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Questions re: flavors of accreditation in US

From: Marcia V Grossbard <ngbard@juno.com>

Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 14:18:57 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by marcia v grossbard <ngbard@juno.com> :



Julia Sackett:... It's my understanding that an ND is a licensed

physician who has  jumped  through all of the hoops required to be a

regular doctor, who has  then  gone on to study and practice as an

herbalist. I could be wrong.



Yup.  If ND was an AMA qualified practitioner, he/she would not have

semi-regular confrontations with them on practitioner rights.



Marcia



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Questions re: flavors of accreditation in US

From: GerstenbergerA@aol.com

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 00:23:15 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by GerstenbergerA@aol.com :



In a message dated 7/18/01 11:39:31 PM, weilgi@eudoramail.com writes:



>Sent to the herblist by weilgi@eudoramail.com :

>

>I see from Henrietta's wonderful site that there is such thing in the US

>as an "ND", a Doctorate of Naturopathy.  From what I gather, this is an

>a real accreditation that has some actual meaning. The state I live in

>does not recognize it, but, if it is a mark of a professional, then it's

>what I would seek, regardless. There is an herbal school not far from me

>that says their program prepares a student for professional standing with

>the American Herbalists Guild. What's that?  Is this is a serious 

professional

>distinction?  How does it compare to being an "ND", particularly in a state

>that does not recognize ND's?

>

>Thanks for any insights-

>

>

>Karen



It's true the educational odyssey of an herbalist is challenging here in the 

US, just thought I'd share mine with you. Though not pursuing an ND, I am 

trying to fulfill the educational requirements for professional membership in 

the American Herbalists Guild (obtainable at their website). I feel that 

credential would assure me in my own mind (can't worry too much about what 

anyone else thinks) of adequate training to offer advice. Over the last 10 

years I've learned the fundamentals of medicine making, plant ID, and materia 

medica through local teachers here in the DC area and by attending various 

symposia around the country, extensive reading and by gardening. Excellent 

short courses and a supervised clinical practicum are available to me at 

Dreamtime Center for Herbal Studies in the Blue Ridge Mtns. of Virginia. 

(check it out: www.dreamtimeherbschool.com)

I'm augmenting this with life science studies (anatomy/physiology, bio- and 

organic chemistry, pharmacology, histology, nutrition, plant taxonomy, plant 

communities, etc.) at a regular academic institution (George Mason University 

in my neighborhood, any university will do). I'm afraid it's up to me to 

frame conventional academics within the context of therapeutic herbalism, but 

I'm up for it, I can do it and so can you. I've designed my own 

interdisciplinary core concentration, based on curricula from schools both in 

the American west, Canada, the UK, Germany and Australia, all available on 

the web. 

Herbal therapeutics gains dimension from the exploration of shamanistic 

healing practices, and the idea of direct communication with plants on a 

level not governed by my overactive cerebral cortex. I strongly recommend 

Stephen Buhner's  Earth-Spirit Medicine workshops as an introduction.

Good luck to us all, in reviving the practice of subtle whole-plant medicine 

in a country obsessed with heavy-handed overmedication with manufactured 

pharmaceuticals (which have their place).

Ann G.



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: weddings and herbs

From: Astrid9787@aol.com

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:25:45 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by erica <astrid9787@aol.com> :



hello,



does anyone know where i can find a copy of *herbs for weddings and other 

celebrations: a treasury of recipes,  gifts, and decorations* by bertha 

reppert? i've been unable to locate a copy, new or used, and am in the throes 

of planning a wedding and would love some information on how to incorporate 

herbs into my big day. 



thanks so much,

erica



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: weddings and herbs

From: "Niamh" <niamh@nmcginley.fsnet.co.uk>

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 22:15:55 +0100

--------

Sent to the herblist by Niamh <Niamh@nmcginley.fsnet.co.uk> :



Thanks Erica,



further to that, any ideas for herbs and symbolism for the bridal bouquet?



Her's a bit I found erica:



Ancient brides wore herbs and not flowers in their bouquets as they felt

herbs had the power to cast off evil spirits. If a bride carried sage (the

herb of wisdom) she became wise, if she carried dill (the herb of lust) she

became lusty. Rosemary ensured the powers of remembrance.

Brides also used to carry marigolds that had been dipped in rosewater. They

later ate them as they were supposed to be aphrodisiacs.

Later flowers replaced herbs and carried meanings of their own. Orange

blossom means happiness and fertility, ivy means fidelity, lilies mean

purity. Wheat was also used in the bouquet to symbolise fertility not only

in family matters but also with crops. Usually the flowers were later dried

and hung in the bride's new home to preserve their meanings.

Most brides wore their hair loose, which symbolised virginity, (married

woman wore their hair up and mostly covered). They would have worn a wreath

of flowers, or had a few single flowers and precious stones scattered in

their hair.



----- Original Message -----

From: <Astrid9787@aol.com>

To: <herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu>

Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 9:25 PM

Subject: weddings and herbs





> Sent to the herblist by erica <astrid9787@aol.com> :

>

> hello,

>

> does anyone know where i can find a copy of *herbs for weddings and other

> celebrations:



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: weddings and herbs

From: May Terry <mterry@snet.net>

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 17:42:04 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by May Terry <mterry@snet.net> :



Astrid9787@aol.com wrote:



> does anyone know where i can find a copy of *herbs for weddings and other

> celebrations: a treasury of recipes,  gifts, and decorations* by bertha

> reppert? i've been unable to locate a copy, new or used, and am in the throes

> of planning a wedding and would love some information on how to incorporate

> herbs into my big day.



Go to http://www.half.com and do a search on 'herbs for weddings and other

celebrations'.  I just did that and they have one in stock.



May

--

May the light shine through us and on us and in us.  May we die each night and be

born each morning that the wonder of life should not escape us.  May we love and

laugh and enter lightly into each other's hearts.  May we live forever.  May we

live forever.   ---Egyptian Book of the Dead



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: weddings and herbs

From: Astrid9787@aol.com

Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:32:56 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by erica <astrid9787@aol.com> :



Niamh, thanks for the information. I'm going to put it to good use. And May, I ordered the book at half.com. thanks for that great tip.



Erica



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: PLZ info about Nigella Sativa.L

From: "Galal Bobby" <bobbymg@jeack.com.au>

Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 22:57:21 +1000

--------

Sent to the herblist by  galal Bobby <bobbymg@jeack.com.au> :



hello there

how are ya all today?

hope that you are doing well and everything under control.

please i need more information about Nigella Sativa.L ,,whats good for?

i have got the seed oil.

i remeber long time ago my grandma use to put in the bread ,before baking it

thank you very much

keep the good work going

( -_ - )



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: PLZ info about Nigella Sativa.L

From: "Thomas Mueller" <tmueller@bluegrass.net>

Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 04:27:26 -0400 (EDT)

--------

Sent to the herblist by tmueller@bluegrass.net :



from "Galal Bobby" <bobbymg@jeack.com.au>:



>please i need more information about Nigella Sativa.L ,,whats good for?

>i have got the seed oil.

>i remeber long time ago my grandma use to put in the bread ,before baking it

>thank you very much



Did your grandma use nigella seed oil, or nigella seeds?  Nigella seeds are sold

as a spice in some Indian grocery stores.  I've seen nigella seeds claimed to be

helpful against asthma (not in Indian grocery stores, where it's just a spice),

but would be inclined to say the antiasthmatic effect, if any, is very weak.



Does nigella seed oil taste spicy at all?



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: PLZ info about Nigella Sativa.L

From: Miriam Kresh <miriam_k@netvision.net.il>

Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 17:39:24 +0200

--------

Sent to the herblist by miriam_k@netvision.net.il :



Michael Tierra's article on Nigella sativa is pretty comprehensive. You'll 

find it here:



http://www.planetherbs.com/articles/



Here in the Middle East, I see nigella mostly sprinkled whole on breads and 

pastries. I have seen curry recipes which incorporate the ground seed, 

also. I should imagine it would taste good, again ground, in cheese.



It does taste spicy; sort of oregano-ish, not like cumin at all, to my 

taste. Pleasant and warming as tea. I believe the oil, made from infusing 

the crushed seeds, is not used in the kitchen but rather as medicine; but 

then, I am not in touch with the Arab communities, where the use of Nigella 

oil is more wide-spread, so perhaps I'm wrong.



I can attest to the fact that Nigella is an effective lactogogue.



Miriam



.

>from "Galal Bobby" <bobbymg@jeack.com.au>:

>

> >please i need more information about Nigella Sativa.L ,,whats good for?

> >i have got the seed oil.

> >i remeber long time ago my grandma use to put in the bread ,before baking it

> >thank you very much

.



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: How to booster immune system

From: "Robin Dorey" <rdorey@mtdata.com>

Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 21:10:23 -0300

--------

Sent to the herblist by robin dorey <rdorey@mtdata.com> :



Hi everyone,



My husband who is a type II diabetic has been having foot problems.  We both

know how serious this is.  Last winter he developed a staph infection in an

old callous and the result was a week's stay in the hospital and the loss of

a toe.  He has completely recovered from the surgery tho it took months to

do it.  But he developed another callous next to the original site.  The

podiatrist has cleaned out the center and it seems to be healing.  BUT since

May he has had 3 or 4 infections that show up as a swollen  sore foot and

slight temp.  He is put on antibiotics and it clears up for a few weeks when

we start all over again.  How can we strengthen his immune system to stop

this cycle.  So far we have caught it early but I worry about the day the

antibiotics won't work.  I know Echinacea nourishes the immune system but is

so overused it might not work after wail.  How about astragalus??  Anything

else we might do??  Thanks for any help you can give us.  Robin



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: How to booster immune system

From: "Kerry's Herbals" <jclarke1@mn.rr.com>

Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 20:22:29 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by Kerry L. <jclarke1@mn.rr.com> :



----- Original Message -----

From: "Robin Dorey" <rdorey@mtdata.com>



> antibiotics won't work.  I know Echinacea nourishes the immune system but

is

> so overused it might not work after wail.



My understanding is that herbs do not pose the risk of being less effective

due to overuse the way antibiotics do. Because herbs are made from dozens

(sometimes hundreds) of different components, it would be virtually

impossible for bacteria to "figure out" how to become resistent they way

they can with pharmaceutical antibiotics, which are usually only made up of

one, sometimes two, components.



Kerry



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: How to booster immune system

From: "Daphne Saul" <dtstsz91@hotmail.com>

Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 19:03:24 

--------

Sent to the herblist by Daphne Saul <dtstsz91@hotmail.com> :



I'm partial to Red Clover, myself.



And it has Vitamin C, too.



Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: How to booster immune system

From: May Terry <mterry@snet.net>

Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 17:49:54 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by May Terry <mterry@snet.net> :



I've told this story before, but it bears repeating.  Winter of '98-99, by the

end of December, I'd had three ear infections, one (at least, and possibly

another I didn't see a doctor for) sinus infection, strep throat, and one

flu-type illness.  At the end of December, I started taking astragalus.  I

wasn't sick again all winter, though my co-workers and friends had many

different illnesses that I was exposed to.  The next winter I had one illness,

between Christmas and New Year's (the most stressful time of the year).  This

year I was sick again the same week, and I also had one cold when I ran out of

astragalus and procrastinated for several weeks about picking up some more.

There's very little doubt in my mind how effective it is.



When I do get sick, I stop taking the astragalus and take echinacea.  I take

about 2 grams of Vitamin C daily when I'm well, but take about 4 times that

when I'm sick.  I also eat garlic.



May

--

May the light shine through us and on us and in us.  May we die each night and

be born each morning that the wonder of life should not escape us.  May we love

and laugh and enter lightly into each other's hearts.  May we live forever.

May we live forever.   ---Egyptian Book of the Dead



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: How to booster immune system

From: polo@ccp.com

Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 11:39:36 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by Doug Ahart <polo@ccp.com> :



Robin,

         Personally speaking, I seemed to have had tremendous luck with 

Vitamin C, particularly ester C in feigning away pathogens after being 

hospitalized for spinal cord injury. I know Vit C, periodically receives 

bad press from the powers that be, but I cannot point by increased health 

and immunity to any other substance other than Vit C. I take a minimum of 

3000mg daily.

         As far as herbs which may boost your immune system.  I am mainly 

partial to Echinacea, Astragalus, Bupleurum, Melilotus, Pau d'arco, Poke 

Root, Withania, Licorice Root, Stillingia Root, and Andrographis. These may 

be taken orally. Fresh poke root should be taken in small amounts and you 

should be aware of symptoms of overdose, but I LOVE fresh poke root. I do 

not like to take any one herb for extended periods, but "pulse" and 

interchange (particularly true of Licorice root).



hope this may be of some help,



Doug 



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: How to booster immune system

From: Jim <waldpond@interbaun.com>

Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 10:49:04 -0600

--------

Sent to the herblist by Jim <waldpond@interbaun.com> :



>My understanding is that herbs do not pose the risk of being less effective

>due to overuse the way antibiotics do. 



I don't think the power of selection should be underestimated.  It may be more

difficult for bacteria to evolve defensese against multiple compounds, but it

is not exceedingly difficult - ie: may just take a little more time.  And we



can't pop into the garden and devlop a new herb in a few years, although

granted there are still a lot of herbs from places like South America and

Africa that are not readily available, at least here (NA).



Because of this, I don't think herbalists should take lightly the inclusion of

herbs into foods for marketing appeal:  echinacea in ice cream to name one

example.  (I know this isn't the type of overuse you were referring to.)



Jim



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Cayenne

From: John LoConte <starspace6@yahoo.com>

Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 13:48:08 -0700 (PDT)

--------

Sent to the herblist by starspace6@yahoo.com :



I'd like to keep some cayenne on hand for both topical

and internal use and was wondering is the powdered

form best for this? Can the fruits themselves can

effectively tinctured?



TIA...



Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger

http://phonecard.yahoo.com/



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Cayenne

From: Elizabeth Scotten <bek@timelessremedies.com>

Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 07:17:39 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by Elizabeth Scotten <timelesstree@earthlink.net> :



on 7/22/01 4:48 PM, John LoConte at starspace6@yahoo.com wrote:

> I'd like to keep some cayenne on hand for both topical

> and internal use and was wondering is the powdered

> form best for this? Can the fruits themselves can

> effectively tinctured?



Yes they can. they also keep nicely whole and dried or infused in oil.



blessings - bek



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: ND accreditation

From: Sharon Hodges-Rust <mwherbs@dshome.net>

Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 15:48:52 -0700

--------

Sent to the herblist by Sharon Hodges-Rust <mwherbs@dshome.net> :



I know of 3 schools in the west one in Seattle, one in Portland and 

one in Phoenix-

Naturopathic Doctors (N.D.s) attend a four-year

  graduate-level naturopathic medical program and are

  educated in the same basic sciences as in conventional

  medical school. Students become primary care physicians

  with a specialized focus in preventative medicine and

  natural therapeutics.

  Upon completion of the graduation requirements, the

  student is awarded a Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine

  degree (N.D.). Graduates sit for professional board exams

  to become licensed as general practice naturopathic

  doctors within licensed states or as individual jurisdictions

  allow.

What states or provinces license NDs?

  The following preliminary information is provided for the

  applicant. Please note that it is the applicant's

  responsibility to contact the individual jurisdiction, in the

  state/province that he/she intends to practice, for the most

  current information regarding licensing. (please see

  footnote flags)



  Alaska (1,3,6) 907-465-2534 New Hampshire (1,3,6)

  603-228-0407 Montana (1,3,6) 406-444-3737 Arizona (2,

  8) 602-542-3095 Oregon (2,3,4) 503-731-4045

  Connecticut (2,3,4) 860-509-7568 Utah (2,3,4,6,7)

  801-298-0126 Manitoba (2,3,4,5) 204-956-1555 Hawaii

  (2,3) 808-586-2701 Vermont (2,3) 802-298-0126

  Ontario(1,3,4) 416-236-4593 Maine(*) 207-624-8603

  Washington (1,3,4) 360-664-3230 Saskatchewan(*)

  306-664-3244

---------------------------------------------------------------------

as far as getting licensed as an herbalist it may have some benefit 

in the future if the laws become tighter already I have trouble 

getting certain herbs that are tinctures because some companies will 

only sell to licensed practioners.  So I have to make them all myself 

if I want them, or find an alternative. not so great when you have 

something acute.   sharon in Tucson



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: ND accreditation

From: "Kerry's Herbals" <jclarke1@mn.rr.com>

Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:53:49 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by Kerry L. <jclarke1@mn.rr.com> :



----- Original Message -----

From: "Sharon Hodges-Rust"



> in the future if the laws become tighter already I have trouble

> getting certain herbs that are tinctures because some companies will

> only sell to licensed practioners.  So I have to make them all myself

> if I want them, or find an alternative



Just out of curiosity, what herbs have you had a hard time getting? I've

never heard of that before.



Kerry



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Request info on toxic effects of herbs and vegetables

From: mscaroline@froggy.com.au

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 00:05:23 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by mscaroline@froggy.com.au :



Firstly, I would like to introduce myself, my name is Caroline  and I live

in Melbourne, Australia. I am currently writing and researching a novel

which is based on food, and this  is where I would like some help if

possible. I am interested in the toxic effects of common herbs and

vegetables and their historical useage. I am also interested in any

strange or unusual foods (some of my research has led me to a rather...

interesting website with placenta recipes:

http://www.twilightheadquarters.com/placenta.html)

I was wondering if anyone had any useful information or if you know of any

links that would be appropriate for me to check out. Any help would be

greatly appreciated.



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Request info on toxic effects of herbs and vegetables

From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:42:15 +0300

--------

Sent to the herblist by Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi> :



mscaroline@froggy.com.au wrote to herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu:



>Firstly, I would like to introduce myself, my name is Caroline  and I live

>in Melbourne, Australia. I am currently writing and researching a novel

>which is based on food, and this is where I would like some help if

>possible. I am interested in the toxic effects of common herbs and

>vegetables and their historical useage. 



My reaction, whenever I get a query that amounts to "how do I kill or poison

somebody with herbs?" is this: 



Okay, so you say you're a writer.



  - How do I know that you're not really out to off somebody with an exotic that

    no police inspector has ever heard of?

  - And if you're in fact a writer, and your novel/novella gets published, how

    can I be sure that nobody will take my advice and off somebody with it?



Sure, there's toxic herbs. One is called coffee. Add milk and sugar for a faster

demise. But really, don't expect herbalists to help you with this particular

quest. We aim to _help_ people, not kill them. Especially as harmful herbs in

action are sure to lead to large headlines, which is sure to narrow our working

environment even further.



Henriette



-- 

hetta@saunalahti.fi     Helsinki, Finland     http://ibiblio.org/herbmed

  The HerbFAQs are   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/medi-cont.html

     in new spots:   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/culi-cont.html

Herb FAQs, pictures, classic texts, articles, archives, plant names  ...



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Request info on toxic effects of herbs and vegetables

From: mscaroline@froggy.com.au

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 23:04:26 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by mscaroline@froggy.com.au :



yes, that's very true... and after I pressed 'send' i realised that.... so

my sincerest apologies. i am truly not out to hurt or offend anyone!

i guess my main query was really after unusual recipes/ historical useage

of herbs/ wild vegetables/ or things that used to be eaten (but wouldn't

anymore, for whatever reason) and the like..., not just about their

toxicity or deleterious effects...

i am really not into writing a manual on 'how to poison your neighbour in

one fell swoop', nor do i intend to write recipes that include bleach or

rat poison.

I live in a greek/italian community - and alot of women collect the

'weeds' from my garden ( i don't know them as anything else, and when i

ask what they want it for... they reply with 'soup') so... this is my

problem, a lack of knowledge...



Caroline.



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Request info on toxic effects of herbs and vegetables

From: Elfreem@aol.com

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:23:22 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by Elfreem@aol.com :



>  Firstly, I would like to introduce myself, my name is Caroline  and I live

>  in Melbourne, Australia. I am currently writing and researching a novel

>  which is based on food, and this  is where I would like some help if

>  possible. I am interested in the toxic effects of common herbs and

>  vegetables and their historical useage. I am also interested in any

>  strange or unusual foods (some of my research has led me to a rather...

>  interesting website with placenta recipes:

>  http://www.twilightheadquarters.com/placenta.html)

>  I was wondering if anyone had any useful information or if you know of any

>  links that would be appropriate for me to check out. Any help would be

>  greatly appreciated.

>  



Caroline,



Are you only interested in herbs and vegetables ..or foods in general?



When it comes to food, the "toxic" effects reported are usually as a result

of allergic reactions. Contact drbate@worldnet.att.net ...he wrote an

e-book on food allergies and vitamin deficiencies, such as schizophrenia

due to niacin deficiency (pelegra); paranoid-schizophrenia as a result of

wheat allergy; autism and sugar allergy, panic attacks and hypoglycemia;

etc. The e-book costs $10 and is well worth it.



Regarding herbs, the information on toxicity is too vast to communicate

via email and would require a lot of reading. There's a lot of misinformation

readily available in the scientific literature (medical journals) and I

recommend that you contact a qualified herbalist, the American Botanical

Council, or the Herbal Research Foundation for more specific information

..the latter two can be found via web search. Most of what has been 

publicized, 

unless from a qualified herbalist, has been alarmist, in tone, and not 

balanced in scope.



May I ask what exactly will you be writing about with regard to the toxic

effects of herbs and vegetables. Please be as specific as possible when

responding to this question, as you may find further help if you can

convince listers that you're not one of those alarmists that may be

well intentioned, but do a disservice to the public and to the herbs they

write about.



Regards,



Elliot Freeman RPh



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Request info on toxic effects of herbs and vegetables

From: mscaroline@froggy.com.au

Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 00:47:35 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by mscaroline@froggy.com.au :



Hi Elliot,



my interests lie in historical useage of herbs, vegetables and foods. In

regards to their toxic effects, I do not intend to write poisonous recipes

or the like. One part of my research looks at how green dyes in clothes

have been known to be made from copper arsenite (very beautiful

apparently... but  why would you want to wear it!!)  so you can imagine...

the young lady wearing a beautiful emerald green dress, is (unbeknown to

her)  actually in an arsenic time bomb. Also things like: how lead was

used in paint, how women used to use belladonna to dilate their pupils

(hence -beautiful lady) but it's not all about toxic effects and i

definately don't propose to tell people 'if you do this/make this, then

you can seriously hurt /kill someone'.

I'm also interested in things like: how the placenta used to be eaten by

the mother after giving birth - a practice that seems to be  returning,

and interesting uses of vegetables for healing (my grandma would rub raw

onion on my feet whenever I had a cold, to make me sweat).



Caroline



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: hurrah!!

From: Evvia@webtv.net

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 02:59:59 -0700 (PDT)

--------

Sent to the herblist by Evvia@webtv.net :



Hurrah, to our list mom. It is neat to know you are on top of things....



Our list mom deserves many thanks and hugs for the fabulous job she is

has and will continue to do.Thank you. Liv



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: drunk on herbs

From: Astrid9787@aol.com

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:25:03 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by erica <astrid9787@aol.com> :



i just heard something really interesting on the radio. apparently, a man was pulled over by a police officer in arizona after he was spotted driving rather erratically. when the officer questioned the man he said the reason for his weaving was he had downed 34 cups of kava. he was subsequently arrested and is now being charged with driving under the influence. the report also mentioned that the effects of kava are similar to that of alcohol and will be treated as such in the courts. 



i got a chuckle out of this and thought you might too.



erica



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: drunk on herbs

From: maggie@gpc.peachnet.edu

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 14:02:32 -0400 (EDT)

--------

Sent to the herblist by maggie@gpc.peachnet.edu :



If it was "tinctured" he WAS drunk. If not, I am surprised he

was even "awake" enough to make it to the car.

 

> Sent to the herblist by erica <astrid9787@aol.com> :

> 

> i just heard something really interesting on the radio. apparently, a man was pulled over by a police officer in arizona after he was spotted driving rather erratically. when the officer questioned the man he said the reason for his weaving was he had downed 34 cups of kava. he was subsequently arrested and is now being charged with driving under the influence. the report also mentioned that the effects of kava are similar to that of alcohol and will be treated as such in the courts. 

> 

> i got a chuckle out of this and thought you might too.

> 

> erica

> 



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: drunk on herbs

From: Melesana@aol.com

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 14:28:59 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by Meg <melesana@aol.com> :



In a message dated 7/24/01 12:01:48 PM Mountain Daylight Time, 

maggie@gpc.peachnet.edu writes:



> If it was "tinctured" he WAS drunk.



I've been making my extracts (is there a politically preferred word on this 

list?  <g>) with vodka, and I'm thinking of switching to glycerin or vinegar 

or water for the leaves-and-flowers parts for just that reason.  With a bit 

of this and a bit of that, I take in about a tablespoon of vodka a day.  Not 

a lot, but still, now I can't say I don't drink.



I like using alcohol because it will extract from anything, and also because 

it will preserve the extract.  I know an alcohol/water mix will work.  Could 

I mix alcohol with glycerin or vinegar?  Is any kind of wine useful for 

extracting/preserving?



Meg



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: drunk on herbs

From: "Kerry's Herbals" <jclarke1@mn.rr.com>

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:11:02 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by Kerry L. <jclarke1@mn.rr.com> :



> Sent to the herblist by Meg <melesana@aol.com> :

>

alcohol/water mix will work.  Could

> I mix alcohol with glycerin or vinegar?  Is any kind of wine useful for

> extracting/preserving?

>

> Meg

>



In the book _Herbal Antibiotics_ by Stephen Harrod Buhmer (nci), he states

that you can make a glycerite with a small amount of alcohol, as well. I

imagine it would be useful in that the alcohol will draw out the properties

that the glycerin wouldn't extract. He suggests using 10% 190 proof alcohol,

60% glycerin, and 30% water. I would be very tempted to try this method

myself except that the glycerites I make are usually purchased for use with

small children and alcohol in *any* quantity is not desired.



Kerry



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: drunk on herbs

From: Veronica Honthaas <honthaas@bigsky.net>

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:35:25 -0600

--------

Sent to the herblist by Veronica Honthaas <honthaas@bigsky.net> :



 the report also mentioned that the effects of kava are similar to that of

alcohol and will be treated as such in the courts. 

>



Speaking of Kava............I have not had very impressive results with

this herb when I experimented on myself. I did not feel it worked well to

relax tightened muscles nor did it put me in a "wonderful" mood. 

I would love to hear other folks experiences with this herb.  Veronica



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: drunk on herbs

From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:12:36 +0300

--------

Sent to the herblist by Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi> :



Veronica Honthaas <honthaas@bigsky.net> wrote to herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu:



>Speaking of Kava............I have not had very impressive results with

>this herb when I experimented on myself. I did not feel it worked well to

>relax tightened muscles nor did it put me in a "wonderful" mood. 

>I would love to hear other folks experiences with this herb.  Veronica



Quality kava tincture: get fresh root from Hawaii (or other tropical places

where they cultivate it organically), tincture 1:2 in 95 % alcohol.



If that's impractical, and you're in the US, you might want to try (listmember)

Peter Byram's - it's quite good [1], but I think he only has it once or twice a

year. Peter? 



  Wait, I have the contact info here somewhere: 

  Peter Byram, New England Herbal Supply Co., 860-228-9199, nehrbsup@aol.com



If kava is made with dried herb (who knows how old) and too low an alcohol % it

won't do very much.



One drop should be enough to make you smile right away. (Well, OK, perhaps three

drops, if you're _large_.) If it doesn't, you don't have quality tincture. And

more than a drop or three is a waste of good tincture.



Cheers

Henriette



[1] That is, I get the same instant smile and relaxed attitude with his as I get

with mine. I made mine from fresh Hawaiian organically grown roots, 1:2, 95 %

EtOH. I don't know how he makes his.



-- 

hetta@saunalahti.fi     Helsinki, Finland     http://ibiblio.org/herbmed

  The HerbFAQs are   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/medi-cont.html

     in new spots:   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/culi-cont.html

Herb FAQs, pictures, classic texts, articles, archives, plant names  ...



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: drunk on herbs

From: Herbgrow30@aol.com

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:40:09 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by herbgrow30@aol.com :



In a message dated 7/24/01 2:29:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Melesana@aol.com 

writes:



<< I like using alcohol because it will extract from anything, and also 

because 

 it will preserve the extract.  I know an alcohol/water mix will work.  Could 

 I mix alcohol with glycerin or vinegar?  Is any kind of wine useful for 

 extracting/preserving?

 

 Meg >>



Hi Meg -



Unfortunately we find there is herb-abuse among some folks.  Kava is getting 

a rich reputation as an anti-anxiety herb, but when one researches it online 

there is a lot of information about it being a "ritual herb used in the 

islands to alter perception..."  So woohoo folks go looking for it.



If an herb is tinctured in alcohol and used appropriately, that is a few 

drops diluted in pure water two to three times a day, one will not get the 

reaction this man did.



In health -

Mary



Mary L. Conley, MNH, ND

Conley Farm Learning Center & Apothecary

Private consultations; Classes now forming for September

Online classes schedule through Herbgrow30@aol.com; 

Mystical Forest Children's Herbs



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: drunk on herbs

From: "Richard & Cyndi ask" <ask@gtii.com>

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 16:16:24 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by Richard & Cyndi Ask <ask@gtii.com> :



Incidences of this type have been reported by the media

The first report of a person being arrested and than having to be released

was

from Utah.



Richard



----- Original Message -----

From: <Astrid9787@aol.com>



> Sent to the herblist by erica <astrid9787@aol.com> :

>

> i just heard something really interesting on the radio. apparently, a man

was pulled over by a police officer in arizona after he was spotted driving

rather erratically. when the officer questioned the man he said the reason

for his weaving was he had downed 34 cups of kava. he was subsequently

arrested and is now being charged with driving under the influence. the

report also mentioned that the effects of kava are similar to that of



alcohol and will be treated as such in the courts.

>

> i got a chuckle out of this and thought you might too.

>

> erica

>



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: drunk on herbs

From: Melesana@aol.com

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 11:31:02 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by Meg <melesana@aol.com> :



In a message dated 7/25/01 8:48:24 AM Mountain Daylight Time, 

honthaas@bigsky.net writes:



>  I did not feel it worked well to

>  relax tightened muscles nor did it put me in a "wonderful" mood. 



Me either, Veronica.  I felt edgy and lethargic, not sleepy or relaxed.  Oh 

well.



Meg



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: drunk on herbs

From: Herbgrow30@aol.com

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 13:19:12 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by herbgrow30@aol.com :



In a message dated 7/25/01 11:35:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 

Melesana@aol.com writes:



<< Me either, Veronica.  I felt edgy and lethargic, not sleepy or relaxed.  

Oh well.

 

 Meg

  >>



Hi Meg -



Many people will react to an herb differently than others.  One of the most 

"different" reactions I see is in response to Kava.  It actually kept one of 

my clients up all night.  If you get a negative reaction that herb is not for 

you.  There are plenty of other herbs that can help anxiety and sleep.  One 

of the things I use for anxiety is a bit of frankinsence oil on the collar of 

a person.



In health -

Mary



Mary L. Conley, MNH, ND

Conley Farm Learning Center & Apothecary

Private consultations; Classes now forming for September

Online classes schedule through Herbgrow30@aol.com; 

Mystical Forest Children's Herbs



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: drunk on herbs

From: GerstenbergerA@aol.com

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 21:56:51 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by GerstenbergerA@aol.com :



In a message dated 7/25/01 11:15:39 AM, hetta@saunalahti.fi writes:



>Quality kava tincture: get fresh root from Hawaii (or other tropical places

>where they cultivate it organically), tincture 1:2 in 95 % alcohol.



I was taught that kavalactones extract more readily in a lipid or fatty 

solution. What about macerated fresh root steeped at room temp for several 

hours in diluted coconut milk, more like islander's preparation. This is the 

only way I've had kava, enjoyed an ounce (or 3 or 5) over an evening, with 

good company, a very pleasant experience.

Ann G.



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: drunk on herbs

From: Herbmednurse@aol.com

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 22:50:35 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by herbmednurse@aol.com :



In a message dated 7/25/01 10:31:37 AM, Melesana@aol.com writes:



<< >  I did not feel it worked well to

>  relax tightened muscles nor did it put me in a "wonderful" mood. 



Me either, Veronica.  I felt edgy and lethargic, not sleepy or relaxed.  Oh 

well.

 >>



is there any truth to a frequent statement made that it is 'activated' by 

water anytime 24 hrs. after ingesting it?????  Is  it similar to a 

fat-soluble vitamin - stored in fat for a period of time?

phebe



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: drunk on herbs....YIKES!

From: "Scott and Aliceann Carlton" <carlton@midrivers.com>

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 00:06:20 -0600

--------

Sent to the herblist by Aliceann and Scott Carlton <carlton@midrivers.com> :



Yikes!!!  Why would anyone drink 34 cups of Kava...or anything else for that

matter?  Even in traditional Kava ceremonies people didn't drink that much

from what I've read......



Besides, if you've ever used this herb in infusion, you'll find it pretty

soporific after a few cups anyway....generally pleasantly so, but still

creating the longing for slumber...........I wonder what he used to

counteract that effect?  Hmmmmmmm....



Interesting story and illuminating about things to come.  I definitely don't

tell drug addicts about Kava.....it's too useful an herb to have it fall

under regulation.



Best Regards,

Aliceann



Sent to the herblist by erica <astrid9787@aol.com> :



i just heard something really interesting on the radio. apparently, a man

was pulled over by a police officer in arizona after he was spotted driving

rather erratically. when the officer questioned the man he said the reason

for his weaving was he had downed 34 cups of kava. he was subsequently

arrested and is now being charged with driving under the influence. the

report also mentioned that the effects of kava are similar to that of

alcohol and will be treated as such in the courts.



i got a chuckle out of this and thought you might too.



erica



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: drunk on herbs....YIKES!

From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 17:17:18 +0300

--------

Sent to the herblist by Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi> :



"Scott and Aliceann Carlton" <carlton@midrivers.com> wrote to

herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu:



>Interesting story and illuminating about things to come.  I definitely don't

>tell drug addicts about Kava.....it's too useful an herb to have it fall

>under regulation.



OTOH, it's an _extremely_ useful plant when somebody's trying to kick a drug

habit. Mellows the blues right away. Of course, I also add nervines, liver

tonics, etc. etc. etc.



Henriette



-- 

hetta@saunalahti.fi     Helsinki, Finland     http://ibiblio.org/herbmed

  The HerbFAQs are   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/medi-cont.html

     in new spots:   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/culi-cont.html

Herb FAQs, pictures, classic texts, articles, archives, plant names  ...



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: drunk on herbs....YIKES!

From: "Scott and Aliceann Carlton" <carlton@midrivers.com>

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 07:39:29 -0600

--------

Sent to the herblist by Aliceann and Scott Carlton <carlton@midrivers.com> :



Good point, Henriette, about using Kava when coming off of drugs.....the

nice thing about it is that it doesn't seem to impair alertness or level of

consciousness in the same way say pot, valium, oxycontin, etc do, and it

does help with tolerating social situations.  However, sadly, most of the

folks I am working with are not at a point of wanting to withdraw, and are

deeply enmeshed in getting high rather than restoring sobriety.



Regarding muscle relaxant effects, a few months ago a member of my family

overdid it in garden work and had a bad muscle spasm in his back....seized

up like a pretzel in fact.  I prepared some Kava in combination with some

burdock root and added some mint for soothing and penetrating effect.

Within two hours the spasm was noticibly relieved and after a second dose at

night, he had a good night's sleep, awaking without pain in the morning.



Best Regards,

Aliceann



----- Original Message -----

From: Henriette Kress

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 8:17 AM

Subject: Re: drunk on herbs....YIKES!



Sent to the herblist by Henriette Kress

<snip>

OTOH, it's an _extremely_ useful plant when somebody's trying to kick a drug

habit. Mellows the blues right away. Of course, I also add nervines, liver

tonics, etc. etc. etc.



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Kava

From: "Richard & Cyndi ask" <ask@gtii.com>

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 12:57:48 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by Richard & Cyndi Ask <ask@gtii.com> :



I can only speck for me.......one of the many health issues

that I have had to deal with and have dealt successfully with

herbs was/is panic anziety attacks related to my PTSD.

Kava has been a life saver.



I take it twice a day and PRN.

I do not leave home without it.



Richard



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Kava

From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:42:56 +0300

--------

Sent to the herblist by Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi> :



"Richard & Cyndi ask" <ask@gtii.com> wrote to herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu:



>herbs was/is panic anziety attacks related to my PTSD.

>Kava has been a life saver.

>

>I take it twice a day and PRN.



PTSD?

PRN?



Henriette



-- 

hetta@saunalahti.fi     Helsinki, Finland     http://ibiblio.org/herbmed

  The HerbFAQs are   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/medi-cont.html

     in new spots:   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/culi-cont.html

Herb FAQs, pictures, classic texts, articles, archives, plant names  ...



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Kava

From: "Richard & Cyndi ask" <ask@gtii.com>

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:16:32 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by Richard & Cyndi Ask <ask@gtii.com> :



----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Henriette Kress" <hetta@saunalahti.fi>



> Sent to the herblist by Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi> :

> 

> "Richard & Cyndi ask" <ask@gtii.com> wrote to herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu:

> 

> >herbs was/is panic anziety attacks related to my PTSD.

> >Kava has been a life saver.

> >

> >I take it twice a day and PRN.

> 

> PTSD?



Post Traminic stress disorder



> PRN?



Medical abrivation for "as needed"



Richard



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Kava

From: Bob Root <liveoak@ozarkisp.net>

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:02:34 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by Bob Root <liveoak@ozarkisp.net> :



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hash: SHA1



	I wanted to continue this thread, and with the introduction of the

condition of PTSD, thought that this may be a good time. Kava along with

skullcap, valerian, hops, catnip, and lemon balm have become a nightly

ritual as a replacement for "Trazadone". The Kava is 1.25 mg the other

ingredients are around .30 mg.



        Trazadone was prescribed to me for almost nine years as an

anti-depressant/sleeping aid. Towards the end the drug caused/enhanced the

symptoms it was supposed to be treating. I ran out of the prescription the

Friday night of Memorial day weekend and went cold turkey until the VA

system got a new supply to me ten days later. Let no one tell you that

immediate withdrawal from Trazadone (200MG per day) was very unpleasant.



        Enough history. I've several questions with regards to

action/interactions

of the "Herbs" I listed in the beginning.



        First, having taken the herbal combination for thirty plus days,

two "O"

capsules every night I am experiencing a heighten touch sensory, very

unpleasant at times.  I am also a type II diabetic, Agent Orange exposure,

and my sugar levels that were being maintained are becoming a little more

difficult to keep within the proscribed range. I am taking other

prescription drugs.



        Having been interested in Herbs for years, I understand that I have

probably exceeded a time limit for taking one, or maybe all of

 the herbs

listed in the second sentence of this ltr.



        I would appreciate an input with regard to the above, along with

suggestions as to replace sleeping aids, if in fact I have exceeded the

time allowed for ingesting the herd(s). With out the ability to sleep, I

relive the events that took place in Viet Nam in 1966, on a nightly basis.

- - -- 

Bob, liveoak@ozarkisp.net on 07/26/2001



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iQA/AwUBO2AxBJzU3dPwD7yXEQJmewCeLkrdsRUNsXxy5UhZ274QuiUc/dYAoK1y

AIFEx1hiQeGiZEQUiymxeCk3

=156h

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==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: PTSD/PRN

From: "Renee" <rja86@webtv.net>

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 02:45:02 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by Renee <rja86@webtv.net> :



PTSD - Post traumatic stress disorder.

PRN - As required.



Have a nice day,

Renee



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: New virus

From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 18:50:29 +0300

--------

Sent to the herblist by Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi> :



It's this: http://www.fsecure.com/v-descs/sircam.shtml



I've gotten over 50 of those by now, all from complete strangers. So I don't

think it's mailing list people (last week's scare was good that way) - 

I think I got them because my pages are so popular.



Sircam looks not only at the address book, but it also checks the temporary

internet folder for email addresses. If somebody has been looking at my pages,

and is infected, wheee!, I got mail.



The att*chments are from 150 to 600 kB each, so it's a _real_ nuisance.



It's not benign - it can either empty or fill your hard disk, depending on how

the dice fall. It also sends documents it finds in your "My Files" -folder to

the email addresses it found earlier on. If somebody else then is fool enough to

open these documents they're infected, and on we go.



It affects the same people who got hit with last week's worm (ie. Win32 users

with email programs that automatically open att*chments), but this one is

worse.



So take care - don't open att*chments with texts that match the ones f-secure

mentions (or the same in 6 more languages).



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

hetta@saunalahti.fi     Helsinki, Finland     http://ibiblio.org/herbmed

  The HerbFAQs are   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/medi-cont.html

     in new spots:   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/culi-cont.html

Herb FAQs, pictures, classic texts, articles, archives, plant names  ...



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: New virus

From: "Thomas Mueller" <tmueller@bluegrass.net>

Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 05:09:53 -0400 (EDT)

--------

Sent to the herblist by tmueller@bluegrass.net :



Henriette,



Maybe you need to modify your mailto link on your Web site to

hetta@saunalahti-nospam.fi with instructions to remove "-nospam" ?   A little

inconvenient, but then the virus would send to a bad address, and the sender,

who never knew he or she sent that 160 KB message, would get it bounced back.



I haven't received any Sircam messages yet, or don't think I have, but now

wonder what was that 160 KB message last June from the barra@realfight.com

emailing list.  I unsubbed without ever having subbed.  There was a big

at*chment that was apparently beyond my computer's hardware and software

capability.



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: kava and anxiety/panic attacks

From: Elfreem@aol.com

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:34:05 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by Elfreem@aol.com :



>  I can only speck for me.......one of the many health issues

>  that I have had to deal with and have dealt successfully with

>  herbs was/is panic anziety attacks related to my PTSD.

>  Kava has been a life saver.

>  

>  I take it twice a day and PRN.

>  I do not leave home without it.



What is PTSD?



Also, would you do me a favor and keep track of the foods you eat on a

daily basis. The object would be to determine whether any foods, food

groups, or highly sugar-laden foods are taken immediately prior to your 

anxiety/panic attacks. In his e-book, Dr Phil Bate (drbate@worldnet.att.net)

has had good results eliminating these attacks after determining that

certain foods and/or hypoglycemia was the cause. Unfortunately, going

into more detail would be inappropriate in this forum, but you can contact

Dr. Bate directly for more information. Please let me know if any attacks

that may develop may be connected to food.



Regards,



Elliot Freeman RPh

elfreem@aol.com



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: kava and anxiety/panic attacks

From: MLCherbs@aol.com

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:14:47 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by mlcherbs@aol.com :



Elliott - interesting you mention food  with panic attacks... I have only had 

2-3 attacks in the past 5 yrs...all times my thyroid was also not functioning 

correctly...however, the doctors say it is "impossible" for there to be a 

connection.  I am the most "not anxiety" type person in the world...in fact, 

last time i had an attack i went to have them check my TSH - sure 

enough....out of balance...but what would i know about my own body!



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Kava and driving

From: hkobayas <hkobayas@students.uiuc.edu>

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:57:26 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by Hideka Kobayashi <hkobayas@students.uiuc.edu> :



<i just heard something really interesting on the radio. apparently, a man was 

pulled over by a police officer in arizona after he was spotted driving rather 

erratically. when the officer questioned the man he said the reason for his 

weaving was he had downed 34 cups of kava. he was subsequently arrested and is 

now being charged with driving under the influence. the report also mentioned 

that the effects of kava are similar to that of alcohol and will be treated as 

such in the courts.>



Similar incidents happened last year. For example, there were two such cases 

in San Mato County, CA last year. I read both of drivers were not convicted 

because kava is not a drug but food. I don't necessary agree with this, but it 

somehow made me laugh. On the other hand, somebody in Utah was indeed 

convicted. I think it happened last year as well.



Hideka



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Kava and driving

From: Herbgrow30@aol.com

Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:46:03 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by herbgrow30@aol.com :



In a message dated 7/26/01 3:47:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 

hkobayas@students.uiuc.edu writes:



<< he was spotted driving rather 

 erratically. when the officer questioned the man he said the reason for his 

 weaving was he had downed 34 cups of kava. he was subsequently arrested and 

is 

 now being charged with driving under the influence. the report also 

mentioned 

 that the effects of kava are similar to that of alcohol and will be treated 

as 

 such in the courts.> >>



This is all the more reason why good educational programs need to be in 

effect.  These people need to know herbs are medicines.



In health -

Mary



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Immune booster

From: "Robin Dorey" <rdorey@mtdata.com>

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:09:25 -0300

--------

Sent to the herblist by robin dorey <rdorey@mtdata.com> :



Hi everyone,



I want to thank all of you for helping me with great suggestions on boosting

the immune system.  I am using astragalus now but will look into the large

amounts of vitamin C.  Thanks again for all your help.  One last question.

What kind of poultices are the most effective?  I use green clay to draw out

a sliver or thorn.  How about drawing out infection of unknown origin??  My

husband's foot which has become inflammed and swollen needs something to

draw out the infection.  I am using a poultice of garlic now which seems to

be working.  I was wondering if anyone has other choices.  Thanks .  Robin



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Immune booster

From: May Terry <mterry@snet.net>

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:11:02 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by May Terry <mterry@snet.net> :



Robin Dorey wrote:



> What kind of poultices are the most effective?  I use green clay to draw out

> a sliver or thorn.  How about drawing out infection of unknown origin??  My

> husband's foot which has become inflammed and swollen needs something to

> draw out the infection.  I am using a poultice of garlic now which seems to

> be working.  I was wondering if anyone has other choices.  Thanks .  Robin



I wonder if garlic might be irritating to the skin, and therefore do more harm

than good.  You might try mixing echinacea tincture with the clay.  I don't know

about drawing anything out, but it certainly helps heal.  I might also give tea

tree oil a try; most people are fine with it undiluted on the skin, but given

your husband's diabetes, I would dilute it.  All this is just from my own

personal experience, as I am not a practitioner.



May

--

In the dark marrow of my bones I have made myself light.  I am the swallow

spinning at dawn, through whom light enters sky, who flies formless above a

world of forms, ringing across the horizon.  We make of ourselves what we

imagine.   ---Egyptian Book of the Dead



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Immune booster

From: "Kerry's Herbals" <jclarke1@mn.rr.com>

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:21:13 -0500

--------

Sent to the herblist by Kerry L. <jclarke1@mn.rr.com> :



Plantain is great for drawing things out, and makes a good poutice.



Kerry



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: poultice and diabetes

From: "Robin Dorey" <rdorey@mtdata.com>

Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 21:37:52 -0300

--------

Sent to the herblist by robin dorey <rdorey@mtdata.com> :



Hi everyone,



Thanks for the suggestions on a poultices.  I am curious as to why they are

not recommended for diabetics.  It seems like a good idea if you have a foot

that is swollen and red which indicates to me that infection is present.

Why not draw out the infection through the injury on the foot??  What can be

bad about that??  My husband has a sore on the bottom of his foot.  His

podiatrist has cleaned it out and prescribed an antibiotic cream to use on

it.  I wanted to use an herbal poultice to draw out the infection.  I hope

someone can explain to me the problems with what I am doing because it is

working.  His foot is not swollen any longer and the redness is just about

gone.  I am sure the prescribe antibiotic medication is playing a large part

but I also think my "crushed" garlic placed on the sore is also working.  He

says it stings a bit but after awhile stops.  Thanks for any input you can

give me.  Robin



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: poultice and diabetes

From: Herbmednurse@aol.com

Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 00:52:01 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by herbmednurse@aol.com :



In a message dated 7/28/01 8:42:00 PM, rdorey@mtdata.com writes:



<< Thanks for the suggestions on a poultices.  I am curious as to why they are



not recommended for diabetics. >>



because diabetics' circulation is impaired to begin with.

if the poultice was irritating, or too hot, or made up of herbs that had the 

propensityto alter blood glucose levels, it could prove dangerous to 

diabetics.  with temperature or irritation, they may not realize it until 

it's too late.

phebe



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: poultice and diabetes

From: Sharon Hodges-Rust <mwherbs@dshome.net>

Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 00:05:49 -0700

--------

Sent to the herblist by Sharon Hodges-Rust <mwherbs@dshome.net> :



ok fresh garlic is very caustic, I had one woman who just thought of 

it as a cure all she put a raw garlic poultice on a small sore on her 

leg. I had recommended that she soak her leg in epsom salts but she 

went for the garlic instead. Well the entire area where the garlic 

was became inflamed and the infection moved into that tissue and well 

as the surrounding tissue so in 2 days time the area that was 

congested and infected went from a scratch to something the size of a 

soft ball. She went to the doc and he gave her some antibiotic 

ointment guess what it was the wrong stuff for the infection she had 

and it got worse. she had red streaks all over the place. I went over 

with my ice chest filled it with hot water and epsom salts and had 

her soak her leg then talked her out of putting any more antibiotic 

ointment on it until she got a culture. With wounds you have to 

figure out which way to go weather to keep it moist or to help it dry 

up. It can be tricky to figure out. Too moist and the infection 

travels too dry and the infection travels and the skin cracks and 

bleeds. In any case we went for several soaks a day since she saw 

that it pulled the red out of the wound then lightly coated gauze to 

keep dirt out and let it semi-dry a bit.  She is hypothyroid and this 

is one of the issues that compounded her condition in the first 

place.  I am very cautious with things that are strong. Tea Tree oil, 

peppermint oil, raw garlic...   I have treated a few serious wounds 

and many not so serious and they can be tricky at times.  I recommend 

caution with the use of clay because it can seal out oxygen so well 

that tetanus can be a risk. There are some wounds I would use it on 

but definately not on someone with circulation problems because the 

tissues are already having trouble being oxygenated. Cooked garlic or 

onions as a poultice can support oxygenation of the tissues via NO 

which can relax the arteries. Plantain is wonderful for wounds, 

cactus and aloe are great if you want moisture and something that 

pulls dried leaves of  mesquite,  desert willow, mallow are a few 

regional ones that I like. Fresh mallow can be use with plantain for 

a moist bandage.  I like yarrow if it bleeds alot or for a lingering 

sore, saint john's wort for some... it just depends I have to see , 

smell, feel what is going on and how well someone is responding.

Sharon in Tucson



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: beeswax

From: JCrobin838@aol.com

Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 15:16:44 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by Jackie <JCrobin838@aol.com> :



In a message dated 7/29/01 3:13:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 

ldoody@internetcds.com writes:



<< bought from a local beekeeper?

 he suggested i melt it and pour through muslin, but it hardens so quickly i

 wonder if this is a good idea?

 

 t >>



Many use very clean panty-hose or even a new sock-hose.



Jackie



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: beeswax

From: psilver@cix.compulink.co.uk (Pat Silver)

Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 19:16 +0100 (BST)

--------

Sent to the herblist by Pat S <psilver@cix.compulink.co.uk> :



Hi Lizzie,



> can anyone tell me an efficient way of cleaning up a lump of beeswax i

> bought from a local beekeeper?



Pot the wax into the foot of some old panty-hose or tie it loosely into 

some fine muslin, put the whole thing into a pot of water and heat it 

gently until the wax melts and runs out through the mesh.  Then lift out 

the panty-hose with all the bits left inside, squeezing gently to get out 

the last bits of wax if necessary, and let the pot cool.  The wax will 

harden in a layer on the top of the water and will be perfectly clean with 

no bits stuck to the bottom.



PatS in Somerset, England



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: beeswax

From: "LJS Doody" <ldoody@internetcds.com>

Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 12:14:12 -0700

--------

Sent to the herblist by LJS Doody <ldoody@internetcds.com> :



hello all



can anyone tell me an efficient way of cleaning up a lump of beeswax i

bought from a local beekeeper?

he suggested i melt it and pour through muslin, but it hardens so quickly i

wonder if this is a good idea?



thanks for your help



Lizzie



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: beeswax

From: "Jimmie" <wolfclan@home.com>

Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 15:26:08 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by Jimmie <Wolfclan@home.com> :



try boiling it in an old pot that holds a few quarts of water.  after it

melts, let it cool while sitting in the water, the sediment should sink and

the pure beeswax will skim



Good Luck,

Jimmie



----- Original Message -----

> can anyone tell me an efficient way of cleaning up a lump of beeswax i

> bought from a local beekeeper?



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: beeswax

From: May Terry <mterry@snet.net>

Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 20:55:45 -0400

--------

Sent to the herblist by May Terry <mterry@snet.net> :



LJS Doody wrote:



> can anyone tell me an efficient way of cleaning up a lump of beeswax i

> bought from a local beekeeper?



Just so you know, it's not necessary to clean it if you're just using it for

yourself.  I don't bother.



May

--

It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no god.  It

neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.   ---Thomas Jefferson



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: Beeswax

From: "Ravenna" <ravenna@netserv.net.au>

Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 12:19:47 +0800

--------

Sent to the herblist by Ravenna Morgan <ravenna@netserv.net.au> :



Lizzie wrote: > can anyone tell me an efficient way of cleaning up a lump of

beeswax



Greetings Lizzie,



Here is my method for cleaning and measuring wax.  Buy several ice cub

trays.  Pour 1 tablespoon (4 teaspoons metric, 3 teaspoons Imperial)  of

water into one of the hollows and note the level.  My trays hold exactly 1

tablespoon in each cube hollow and each cube weighs about 14g (1/2oz).  You

can find trays for very small cubes in which you can make teaspoon-sized

blocks.



 Empty the water out, dry the tray and grease it well with oil.  Put the

beeswax in a pan, cover with cold water and bring slowly to the boil.  (Turn

the heat down low at this stage as you don't want to boil the wax - just

melt it.)  When the wax has melted, turn the heat off and leave the contents

to cool and set.



 Drain off the water.  Lift out the block of wax and you will see the

underside has quite a thick coating of impurities.  Scrape this layer off,

break up the wax roughly and return it to the dry pan.



 From this point on, this method can also be used for cocoa butter.

 Melt the wax or butter slowly.  Don't let it get too hot, or it might burn

or destroy the ice cube tray when you pour it in.  When the wax has melted,



begin to pour.  Fill each hollow in the tray to the predetermined level and

leave to set.  Turn the cubes out and store in a sealed container, as there

is a little moth that loves to feed on wax!



 Weigh the cubes together before packing and divide the weight by the number

of cubes.  You will then know approximately how much each cube weighs, so if

a recipe specifies an amount by weight you will be able to estimate easily

how many cubes to use. Pack the cubes in an airtight container, mark with

the weight per cube, and store in a cool place. Write the weight per cube on

the outside of the storage container.



Another option for measuring beeswax is to grate it very finely, press into

a metric teaspoon measure until level. Each level spoonful will weigh

approximately 1 gram and each metric tablespoonful (level) will weigh

approximately 4 grams.



Blessings,



Ravenna



The price of knowledge is

the responsibility to share it.



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: plantain

From: Herbmednurse@aol.com

Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 15:40:06 EDT

--------

Sent to the herblist by herbmednurse@aol.com :



i'm collecting some plantain leaves from the yard, and wondered if using 

leaves that bugs have eaten some of is alright.  (no, the bugs still aren't 

on them...) but wondered if using less than perfect leaves is ok.

phebe



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: plantain

From: Sharon Hodges-Rust <mwherbs@dshome.net>

Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 15:07:52 -0700

--------

Sent to the herblist by Sharon Hodges-Rust <mwherbs@dshome.net> :



Phebe ,

It depends how big are the holes? are they on all of the plants? do I 

need the plant right now to treat something and don't have alot of 

selection or time. So if you have time and  enough plants I would be 

selective and just gather the pristine leaves.

When I lived where plantain grew I didn't gather much of it because 

we lived in a temperate enough area to  find  plants in winter, even 

if it I had to move 1 inch of snow away to pick it.  I have dried and 

frozen it to use on occasion but  really haven't tinctured it has 

anyone made it into a succus?

Sharon in Tucson



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: plantain

From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 09:39:17 +0300

--------

Sent to the herblist by Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi> :



Sharon Hodges-Rust <mwherbs@dshome.net> wrote to herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu:



>When I lived where plantain grew I didn't gather much of it because 

>we lived in a temperate enough area to  find  plants in winter, even 

>if it I had to move 1 inch of snow away to pick it.  I have dried and 

>frozen it to use on occasion but  really haven't tinctured it has 

>anyone made it into a succus?

>Sharon in Tucson



You have lots of Plantago in Tucson. Check the sand at your feet - yep, that

tiny silvery plant with plantain-like flowerspikes is a Plantago. I forget the

species, but that's unimportant - they all work.



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

hetta@saunalahti.fi     Helsinki, Finland     http://ibiblio.org/herbmed

  The HerbFAQs are   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/medi-cont.html

     in new spots:   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/culi-cont.html

Herb FAQs, pictures, classic texts, articles, archives, plant names  ...



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: plantain

From: Sharon Hodges-Rust <mwherbs@dshome.net>

Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 00:06:47 -0700

--------

Sent to the herblist by Sharon Hodges-Rust <mwherbs@dshome.net> :



well you are right it does grow here if there has been enough rain in 

the winter. It is summer monsoons and it doesn't seem to sprout for 

them. I had 3 plants in my yard that dried out by April I just don't 

have the heart to gather something so sparse. I really haven't found 

a big enough patch to gather from yet.

Sharon in Tucson



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: re: plantain

From: "LJS Doody" <ldoody@internetcds.com>

Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 12:56:20 -0700

--------

Sent to the herblist by LJS Doody <ldoody@internetcds.com> :



well phebe,

that is a good question, i was taught that you leave out the parts of the

plant that have been 'used' by another life form. i dont put them in my

tinctures etc. i would be interested to see what the general opinion is on

this one!



Lizzie



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To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Re: plantain

From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 09:43:57 +0300

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Sent to the herblist by Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi> :



"LJS Doody" <ldoody@internetcds.com> wrote to herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu:



>that is a good question, i was taught that you leave out the parts of the

>plant that have been 'used' by another life form. i dont put them in my

>tinctures etc. i would be interested to see what the general opinion is on

>this one!



A leaf with larve spinnings underneath? Remove said leaf, use the rest of the

flowering tops/twig/whatever.



A plant with a few bitemarks from whatever six-legged lifeform? Use it. 



A plant that looks like lace because it's been eaten so much? Don't use it. Find

a plant that was strong enough to deter that particular pest, or pick it earlier

in its lifecycle, when it's usually far cleaner. 



A plant with snail trails? Or spiderwebs? Yech.



A plant with disease spots? Don't use any of it. The disease is in all the

plant, not just the disease spots.



My rule of thumb: if _I_ wouldn't use it, I don't expect my clients to, and

don't pick it.



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

hetta@saunalahti.fi     Helsinki, Finland     http://ibiblio.org/herbmed

  The HerbFAQs are   |  http://ibiblio.org/herbmed/faqs/medi-cont.html

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Herb FAQs, pictures, classic texts, articles, archives, plant names  ...



==========

To: herb@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Subject: Poultices

From: "Robin Dorey" <rdorey@mtdata.com>

Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 20:42:42 -0300

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Sent to the herblist by robin dorey <rdorey@mtdata.com> :



Hi everyone,



Thanks for the info on poultices.  We used the garlic for a couple of nights

and it seemed to help.  We stopped after we saw the improvement.  I have

saved all your notes.  We have used a salt soak and that reduced the

swelling and redness.  The redness is actually gone now but he still has

some swelling.  His doctor wants to check out the bone to be sure the

infection hasn't moved there.  Just a precaution.  I got the idea of using

the garlic from a book on herbs.  The situation was a young man who had

accidentally hit some nails with a chain saw and they punctured his leg.  It

became infected almost immediately.  He used the garlic poultice as well as

a mixture of tea tree oil, oil of lemon, goldenseal, and aloe.  The mixture

was put around the open wound not in it.  His cleared up in a day so I

thought it might help in our situation.  I think it did but I will be more

cautious using it from now on.  Thanks again.  Robin



