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From: "Elsa Bruguier" <elsaucc@msn.com>

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Subject: [Herb] drug contra-indications

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I would appreciate hearing opinions regarding possible drug interactions on 

the following.



A friend is travelling to Africa, and just yesterday startted taking the 

anti-malaria med. Lariam (will continue the protocol through the end of 

Sept.).  She also has Diamox (for altitude sickness) and Cipro (for tummy 

trouble) as "just in case meds."  (i.e., does not intend to take them unless 

she needs them).



She is also recovering from an ankle fracture and sprain, and wanted to 

start a tincture protocol of avena sativa, horsetail, alfalfa to aid her 

ankle healing.



Is anyone aware of any contra-indications with this grouping, or any other 

reasons not to use these all in tandem?



Thank you.

Elsa







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Subject: [Herb] doses of astragalus

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Hi everyone,



I have put my husband on astragalus to help boost his immune system.  He is 

a diabetic and this past June he has had his third toe amputated in a year 

and a half.  Each time he heals very well but it seems the infection 

remains deep inside the foot.  After two months off the antibiotics, the 

infection comes roaring back!!  So he is taking astragalus tincture four 

times a day, the recommended dosage which I think is 30 drops.  I remember 

reading that one should take an herb for so many days/weeks and then stop 

for a set time.  Can anyone tell me what that might be??  I have him not 

take any over the weekend but maybe that isn't enough or too much 

or....  Thanks for your help.  I really think it is working as this time he 

developed a secondary abscess on the incision which he didn't the other two 

times.  I am of the opinion that his body is pushing it all out.  We are 

very hopeful.  Robin



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From jclarke1@mn.rr.com Sat Aug 03 04:52:44 2002

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From: "Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1@mn.rr.com>

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Subject: RE: [Herb] doses of astragalus

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My understanding is that astragalus is a "tonic" herb, and as such, can be

effectively taken longterm - months or years at a time. Michael Moore's MM

recommends 30-60 drops, 4x/day.



Kerry









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From srafat@ksu.edu.sa Sun Aug 04 10:44:25 2002

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From: "Dr.Syed Rafatullah" <srafat@ksu.edu.sa>

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Subject: [Herb] Re: Asragalus Doses

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Hi all,

Besides, its antioxidant, srengthening and to regulate immune system and to

increase production of  blood cells,

Astragalus is topically used  as a vasodilator to speed healing.

It mentioned in the literature as Likely safe.

It is reported to cause immunosuppression, if the doses greater than 28

grams.

Regarding the oral doses, Astragalus powder 9-30 grams per day. However,

research suggests that doses greater than 28 grams per day may offer no

additional benefit and may even cause immune suppression Some recommend

astragalus powder 4-7 grams  per day for a 79 kilogram human for optimal

immune stimulating activity.

Reference:  Upton R. (ed). Astragalus Root: analytical,quality control, and

therapeutic monograph. Santa Cruz , CA:

    American Herbal Pharmacopoeia; 1999: 1-25.

 I hope, this information would be helpful.

 Thanx.

Rafat

Dr. Syed Rafatullah



----- Original Message -----

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Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 7:00 PM

Subject: Herb digest, Vol 1 #138 - 2 msgs





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> The Medicinal Herblist Digest

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> Today's Topics:

>

>    1. doses of astragalus (Robin Dorey)

>    2. RE: doses of astragalus (Kerry & Jack)

>

> --__--__--

>

> Message: 1

> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 21:12:21 -0300

> To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

> From: Robin Dorey <rdorey@mtdata.com>

> Subject: [Herb] doses of astragalus

> Reply-To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> I have put my husband on astragalus to help boost his immune system.  He

is

> a diabetic and this past June he has had his third toe amputated in a year

> and a half.  Each time he heals very well but it seems the infection

> remains deep inside the foot.  After two months off the antibiotics, the

> infection comes roaring back!!  So he is taking astragalus tincture four

> times a day, the recommended dosage which I think is 30 drops.  I remember

> reading that one should take an herb for so many days/weeks and then stop

> for a set time.  Can anyone tell me what that might be??  I have him not

> take any over the weekend but maybe that isn't enough or too much

> or....  Thanks for your help.  I really think it is working as this time

he

> developed a secondary abscess on the incision which he didn't the other

two

> times.  I am of the opinion that his body is pushing it all out.  We are

> very hopeful.  Robin

>

>

> --__--__--

>

> Message: 2

> From: "Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1@mn.rr.com>

> To: <herb@lists.ibiblio.org>

> Subject: RE: [Herb] doses of astragalus

> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 20:52:44 -0500

> Reply-To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

>

> My understanding is that astragalus is a "tonic" herb, and as such, can be

> effectively taken longterm - months or years at a time. Michael Moore's MM

> recommends 30-60 drops, 4x/day.

>

> Kerry

>

>

>

>

>

>

> --__--__--

>

> _______________________________________________

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>

>

> End of Herb Digest



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From redden@viriditasherbalproducts.com Sun Aug 04 20:54:51 2002

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Subject: [Herb] Dosing astragalus

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The components of astragalus that you want are completely water soluble and

not in alcohol which is only a preservative in this tincture. Also the

traditional dosage would require more like 30mL than 30gtt of tincture. Put

10-20 gm of herb into a soup and pull it out before serving. Burdock root

(gobo) can be found in an oriental market as well as shiitake mushrooms

(Lentinus) . Cook your vegetables and mushrooms add fresh garlic and herbs

before serving and you have an immune boosting meal.

Or you can just boil 30gm in a L of water and sip it throughout the day.

Drink lots for a long time to rebuild the immune system. Also add cayenne to

the meal to increase peripheral vascularization.

For the wound care mix powders of myrrh and goldenseal to honey at 1:1:10

and apply the honey paste to a bandage cloth instead of trying to spread the

paste on the wound. Place the herbed honey over the abscess and gently fix

the bandage in place with another bandage cloth.The mix is antiseptic,

astringent and hygroscopic.The wound will heal and the infection will be

drawn out into the bandage. Change once a day.Rinse with cool water to

remove any material.

Good luck.   John Redden





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May Terry:

> Is hops a diuretic



Yes.



Miikkali

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Spent the weekend painting my house, and the heat here in MI was

sweltering.  In the evening when I was done, I thought to myself:  "I'd

sure LOVE some nice cold iced tea".  I don't, however, know a whole lot

of good recipes (I usually just throw in what I have on hand... Lemon

Balm, Raspberry, some Rosehips...), and I figure I can probably get

some exquisite recipes by asking here... Anyone?



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from "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum@hotmail.com>:



> Spent the weekend painting my house, and the heat here in MI was

> sweltering.  In the evening when I was done, I thought to myself:  "I'd

> sure LOVE some nice cold iced tea".  I don't, however, know a whole lot

> of good recipes (I usually just throw in what I have on hand... Lemon

> Balm, Raspberry, some Rosehips...), and I figure I can probably get

> some exquisite recipes by asking here... Anyone?



I suppose by iced tea, you mean actual tea (Camellia sinensis) mixed with other

herbs?  My latest mix with green tea (Chinese gunpowder) included wormwood

(Artemisia absinthium), devil's claw (Harpagophytum procumbens), rose hips,

agrimony, plantago and peppermint, not in equal amounts.  Least amount was for

the very bitter wormwood.  Green tea seems to have a way of hiding, to some

extent, bitter and other strong flavors in other herbs.  Maybe green tea even

helps hide throat tickles to some extent; anyway, green tea has helped keep me

breathing on many occasions.  Latter three ingredients in the above-mentioned

mix are very variable; I don't stick with agrimony, plantago and peppermint on

a consistent basis.



For a non-tea mix, one of my latest is nettle (largest amount), Hibiscus

sabdariffa flowers (for acidity), ground ivy, eyebright and prickly ash bark

(smallest amount; I also use barberry root; used goldenrod until that ran out).

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Hi Jim,

 I am in Michigan, too. Upper, Lower, NW>

The sumac is ready  to harvest before the Sept. rains leach out  their

Vit.C. content.

2 large corms in a gallon jar, started with cold water overnight, with a

touch of any berry that is out  there right now, tastes good... Sugar or

honey to sweeten.

C-M



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Down south we sure have to know how to deal with heat stress. It's been a

fairly cool summer, but we had to start our super-hydration schemes back in

May to keep healthy. Anytime we are working outside, we make a cooling

infusion. The classic tea for heat stress is made of hibiscus calyx with

spearming or peppermint added for flaver, plus lemon grass or similar added

for sour. That is Hibiscus sabdariffa, known as "Jamaica tea" or "red

zinger" (yes, that celestial tea company stole the traditional

caribbean/central 'merican recipe). The part used is the calyx (the red

leaf-like bowl beneath the flower) rather than the flower itself. It grows

fairly readily here in North Florida. Makes a nice jelly too. I add nettles

to the tea sometimes to restore the body's mineral balance. You can make

this tea strong and water (ice) it down, with a little honey and lemon

added.....yum! Seriously, heat stress and heat stroke are a scary thing. We

in the southlands are accustomed to this kind of weather torture, but y'all

in the north better watch out as this global warming business takes hold.

I've noticed days on end when we have actually had cooler temperatures than

the whole rest of the country!  --Susan in the deep south

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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

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Subject: Re: [Herb] Re: Herb tea

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Susan Marynowski <sumar@mail.ifas.ufl.edu> wrote to herb@lists.ibiblio.org:



> Anytime we are working outside, we make a cooling

> infusion. The classic tea for heat stress is made of hibiscus calyx with

> spearming or peppermint added for flaver, plus lemon grass or similar added

> for sour. 



_Taste_ the Hibiscus sabdariffa one of these days. 



In contrast to pretty much every other plant in all of the Malvaceae, this one

needs no lemon for sour.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

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Hello!

My name is Katja Eisbrenner I am a student in International Forestry.

At the moment I am writing my thesis at the UBC Research Forest on the capabilities

and opportunities for Non Timber Forest Products.

Medicinals are an important topic I am looking especially at Oregon

grape and Devils club. If anybody has information on these two plants

I would appreciate it. I am especially looking at sustainable harvest

of medicinals and market chances.

Thank you very much

With my best wishes,



Katja Eisbrenner



UBC Malcolm Knapp Research Forest

14500 Silver Valley Road

Maple Ridge, BC, V4R 2R3

Telephone: 604-463-8148

Fax: 604-463-2712 



                                            mailto:sudnif@gmx.de



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Michigan makes great summer tea!  Love a blend of labrador tea and lemon balm - close enough to black tea flavor to fool you.   



Then there's sweet fern - a mellow spicy herb that tastes like a blend all by itself - though adding a few rose petals gives a nice sweet dimension (not a bad smoke combo either) 



Another favorite - black birch twig and raspberry leaf, sweeten with maple syrup, of course.  Sometimes add Viola tricolor blossoms also.



Or agrimony leaf & wild carrot flower combo - tastes better hot than cold.  Don't use a strainer on that one, leaves and flowers tossed whole in the glass and just drink around them.  Fun, easy and tasty.



Favorite summer thirst quencher is rhubarb & lemon thyme... or peppermint (family consensus on that one)



I use rose hips with a touch of dandelion leaf to add a citrus-like flavor to tea blends.... 



Although I usually blend herbs that are gathered at a similar time - dried elderblossom and highbush cranberry berries are a favorite combo.  Cranberries pick up the somewhat insipid flavor of the elderflower, while the elderflower mellows the harsh after bite that the highbushes often have.



Oh, did I mention the fermented chokecherry tea?  Very nice... hic

JoyceW



 







Every great Oak Tree, was once just a nut, that stood its ground





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>

>Oh, did I mention the fermented chokecherry tea?  Very nice... hic

>JoyceW

>

>



What is fermented chokecherry tea.  Veronica



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from Joyce Wardwell <plantpeople@triton.net>:



> Michigan makes great summer tea!  Love a blend of labrador tea and lemon balm - close enough to black tea flavor to fool you.   

(snip)



Is this labrador tea Ledum palustre or other Ledum species?  This herb seems to

be unavailable through herb dealers.  What is it like, what does it do for you?



Is the highbush cranberry you refer to Viburnum opulus, aka cramp bark, except

you use the berries insted of the bark?  I have never seen any Viburnum berries

available through herb dealers, only the bark (black haw or cramp bark).



It's nice to be in a rural environment and have a variety of herbs available,

some of which would not be available through herb dealers, plus you have the

advantage of being able to use fresh.  I'm in an area of suburban sprawl.

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>

>Is the highbush cranberry you refer to Viburnum opulus, aka cramp bark, except

>you use the berries insted of the bark?  I have never seen any 

>Viburnum berries

>available through herb dealers, only the bark (black haw or cramp bark).



although there would seem to be only a couple of species in my very 

old Britton and Brown they say 100 viburnum species in the 

honeysuckle family( related to elder)



viburnum opulus- cramp bark, high bush-cranberry, Wild Guelder-rose, 

cranberry-tree, red fruit is acidic, grows in Low grounds, New 

Brunswick o British Columbia, south to New Jersey , Michigan and 

Oregon. also in Europe and Asia



viburnum prunifolium- berries, Black Haw, (dry soil Connecticut to 

Florida west to Michigan, Kansas and Texas, fruit ripe in Sept, 

bluish-black sweet and edible.



I have found bark to buy but rarely have seen the berries for sale, 

once in a while I have bought them canned.



sharon in tucson

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From: elementalclay@webtv.net (Roxanne Brown)

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] more MI tea

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Sharon,

  I am in central Mn and black haw grows about 10 miles away from me so

I have access to the fruit.  What is it used for?

The woman that owns the land has attempted to make them into jam

Thanks,

Roxanne



Roxanne J. Brown

Elemental Clay

http://www.cloudnet.com/~elemclay/

"One does not learn by speaking"



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On Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:43:29 -0700 Sharon Hodges-Rust <mwherbs@dshome.net>

writes:

> >

> >Is the highbush cranberry you refer to Viburnum opulus, aka cramp 

> bark, except you use the berries insted of the bark? 



Why is it that I remember something about toxicity in relation to

Viburnums discussed on this very list?   Is the berry safe?  Is it just

the bark on the twigs?   Any comments on the flowers or the leaves?

My viburnums Carlesii and Carlcephalus will remain ornamental non-herbal

plants until I hear otherwise.

Thanks,

Marcia

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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

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Subject: Re: [Herb] more MI tea

Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia

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Marcia V Grossbard <ngbard@juno.com> wrote to herb@lists.ibiblio.org:



> Sharon Hodges-Rust <mwherbs@dshome.net> writes:

> >

> >Is the highbush cranberry you refer to Viburnum opulus, aka cramp 

> > bark, except you use the berries insted of the bark? 

> 

> Why is it that I remember something about toxicity in relation to

> Viburnums discussed on this very list?   Is the berry safe?  Is it just

> the bark on the twigs?   Any comments on the flowers or the leaves?

> My viburnums Carlesii and Carlcephalus will remain ornamental non-herbal

> plants until I hear otherwise.



The berries of Viburnum opulus are considered toxic, at least over here; it's

interesting to note though, that Lnnrot wrote in his Flora Fennica (1866):

"People make both vinegar and brandy from the berries. After frost they lose

their bad taste and are edible to humans, mixed into flour and made into bread."



Have to remember though, there were lots of famines in Lnnrot's days. They ate

pretty much _anything_.



My German-language poisonous plants book ("Giftpflanzen in Natur und Garten",

Buff/v.d.Dunk, 1988) lists both Viburnum opulus and V. lantana as toxic. 

Lessee, their reason is: all species of Viburnum contain larger or smaller

concentrations of different glycosides in bark, berry and flower. These

glycosides can be toxic. Especially kids can get highly irritated mucous

membranes in stomach and gut after eating berries. Some even died after eating

large amounts. The irritating effect is ascribed to an unknown viburnin; this

effect is strengthened by the glycosides. Some kids get dizzy from berries of V.

lantana.



They say, of other Viburnums, that the content of viburnin and other toxic

substances in the berries is unknown.



Oh, cool. Viburnum opulus, fruit boiled in Asia, and eaten as jam. Evidently

then, the viburnin is destroyed by heat. Also made into wine and brandy.



Viburnum lantana, green fruit used as a drastic contact laxative.



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

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>

Marcia, I could not comment on the varieties in your  yard too much I 

think that  the Carlesii is from Korea and the Carlcephalus I don't 

know anything about.





here is a web site on prunifolium- states edible fruit.

http://ohioline.osu.edu/b700/b700_67.html



Malcom Stuart Encyclopedia of Herbs and Herbalism -says the uncooked 

fruits is poisonous of either opulus or prunifolium although he also 

says the fruits are edible. "...the fruit have been used like 

Cranberries but they do not really compare in quality and they must 

be cooked before they are eaten-the raw fruit contains a substance, 

viburnine, which can cause severe gastro-intestinal disorders."



Grieve- Guelder Rose- discusses some uses for the fruits- 

fermentation, jelly used as flavoring



a web site on the plant I know from living in the northwest in the past-

http://www.rook.org/earl/bwca/nature/shrubs/viburnumed.html

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Just to reflect/repeat what Henriette is saying about the Hibiscus

sabdariffa -- yes, it is deeply sour! You can make a wonderful tea with it

alone. If you make it really strong, which is easy to do, it will be a

beautiful red-black color. This stuff must be good for dying too. And it is

so rich and sour and also very astringent in the mouth at that strength.

Kids usually don't like it that strong, but sometimes I do! It is a

red-flavonoid-sour taste, if you know what I mean. I like to add lemongrass

and fresh lemon slices or citrus slices to it to get the lighter citrusy

sour taste as well. --deep-south susan

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Subject: Re: [Herb] Re: Hibiscus sabdariffa

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At 12:27 PM 8/7/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Just to reflect/repeat what Henriette is saying about the Hibiscus

>sabdariffa -- yes, it is deeply sour! You can make a wonderful tea with it

>alone. If you make it really strong, which is easy to do, it will be a

>beautiful red-black color. This stuff must be good for dying too. And it is

>so rich and sour and also very astringent in the mouth at that strength.

>Kids usually don't like it that strong, but sometimes I do! It is a

>red-flavonoid-sour taste, if you know what I mean. I like to add lemongrass

>and fresh lemon slices or citrus slices to it to get the lighter citrusy

>sour taste as well. --deep-south susan



Hi DDS....



I've been yearning for a recipe to make the tea itself... I love the Yogi 

brand.  Anybody have knowledge about where to buy ingredients and "exactly" 

how to blend it.  Is there a site that offers this kind of recipe?  I get 

such a light and vibrant feeling from drinking hibiscus tea.



Thanks!

Vicki



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From: "Brenda Wyatt" <bjwyatt@accesstoledo.com>

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Subject: RE: [Herb] Re: Hibiscus sabdariffa

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"This stuff must be good for dying too."



just a word of caution from personal experience--it may work great on some

things, but I added it to a hair rinse formula I make in a vinegar base to

bring out red highlights, and it turned my hair to straw. It took a couple

weeks to regulate--I wasn't thinking of the astringency, obviously!



Brenda Wyatt

WomynWyse Herbs & Botanicals

womynwyse@accesstoledo.com



-----Original Message-----

From: herb-admin@lists.ibiblio.org

[mailto:herb-admin@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Susan Marynowski

Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 12:28 PM

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Re: Hibiscus sabdariffa





Just to reflect/repeat what Henriette is saying about the Hibiscus

sabdariffa -- yes, it is deeply sour! You can make a wonderful tea with it

alone. If you make it really strong, which is easy to do, it will be a

beautiful red-black color. This stuff must be good for dying too. And it is

so rich and sour and also very astringent in the mouth at that strength.

Kids usually don't like it that strong, but sometimes I do! It is a

red-flavonoid-sour taste, if you know what I mean. I like to add lemongrass

and fresh lemon slices or citrus slices to it to get the lighter citrusy

sour taste as well. --deep-south susan

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From cmaria@triton.net Wed Aug 07 21:10:51 2002

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Subject: [Herb] Nettles

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Like most, I believe that nettles are best picked before flowering for

internal consumption.

There is some discussion as to the damage that can be done to the

kidneys if nettles are used that are flowering.

How great is that danger to the kidneys?

Most of us pick their own herbs, but some have to rely on growers and

their integrity.

Of course dosage is important, too and preparation.

Researching this in my herb library, I find few references.

Someone have some concrete research as to the damage to the liver when

nettles are consumed during their flowering stage?

C-M



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From hetta@saunalahti.fi Wed Aug 07 21:31:39 2002

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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Nettles

Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia

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Christa-Maria <cmaria@triton.net> wrote to herb@lists.ibiblio.org:



> There is some discussion as to the damage that can be done to the

> kidneys if nettles are used that are flowering.

> How great is that danger to the kidneys?



Not a problem if you listen to your body and stop taking that particular batch

of nettles when you get a kidney-ey lower back ache.



> Someone have some concrete research as to the damage to the liver when

> nettles are consumed during their flowering stage?



Some sort of crystals form in older leaf (older on the plant; not in the jar).

Not everybody has problems with it; those who do get that lower back ache. If

you have picked too old nettles and do get that ache, use those nettles for

footbaths, or full baths. Or compost.



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed

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C-M...there was a thread about this in June of 1998 on this list.

From it are some quotes from books and then Karen Vaughan and Peter Gail

talk about their experience:



According to Gregory Tilford, in the book "Edible and Medicinal Plants of

the West", published in 1997

        "This plant {stinging nettles} should not be consumed during or

after its bloom stage, as the foliage then develops gritty particles

(called 'cystoliths') that may cause irritation to the urinary tract if

ingested in large quantities".

~

Susun Weed also says not to harvest after flowering; Maude Grieve says

to harvest just before flowering in May and June, citing cystoliths that

are present in the fall, but Penelope Ody says to harvest while

flowering.

~

Karen Vaughan said (and this was in June..she was in NY)-

if you want to make tincture, you probably should harvest

before flowering.  But for most other uses (eating them, making

infusions) you can pick them now.  The grape- like thing is the flower

and it makes seeds which are also herbally desirable.  If you pick it

now, eat the flower too.

On nutritive herbs you don't have to be overly concerned with the timing.

Heroic herbs are trickier because you are going after a specific

medicinal action and many are also toxic.



and Karen also said-

I've had no problem either finding cystoliths or consuming the leaves

after harvesting.  But check your leaves for protrubences.  It may vary

depending upon soil conditions.  Or quantities ingested.  The particles

are unlikely to come out in the strained infusion or forms where the leaf

isn't eaten.



and finally, Peter Gail said (and this would be my advice on this too for

eating):

You are assuming mature nettles.  The old plants( leaves) contain stone

cells

(or cystoliths), but young leaves do not.  You can gather the young leaves

and

shoots to 6" tall of nettle throughout the growing season. It is the old

leaves you don't want.  To g et an abundance of young leaves, just weed wack

the plants down after they flower and new growth will appear.



Joanie



> Like most, I believe that nettles are best picked before flowering for

> internal consumption.

> There is some discussion as to the damage that can be done to the

> kidneys if nettles are used that are flowering.

> How great is that danger to the kidneys?

> Most of us pick their own herbs, but some have to rely on growers and

> their integrity.

> Of course dosage is important, too and preparation.

> Researching this in my herb library, I find few references.

> Someone have some concrete research as to the damage to the liver when

> nettles are consumed during their flowering stage?

> C-M



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Subject: RE: [Herb] Nettles

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I thought I remember reading here recently that nettles were useless as a

tincture. Anyone have more info on that?



Kerry



-----Original Message-----

From: herb-admin@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:herb-admin@lists.ibiblio.org]On

Behalf Of Joanie

Karen Vaughan said (and this was in June..she was in NY)-

if you want to make tincture, you probably should harvest

before flowering.





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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Nettles

Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia

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"Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1@mn.rr.com> wrote to <herb@lists.ibiblio.org>:



> I thought I remember reading here recently that nettles were useless as a

> tincture. Anyone have more info on that?



Not useless, just a waste of good alcohol. It's definitely better as a tea.



Henriette



-- 

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From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum@hotmail.com>

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>(Nettles) Not useless, just a waste of good alcohol. It's definitely better 

>as a tea.

>

>Henriette



What about preserving the medicinal "sting"?  I tincture fresh nettles

and have used them in treating nerve-related problems, either from

accidents, or degenerative in nature (along with other herbs, of

course).  I've both read of, heard first hand accounts of, and had the

opportunity to "urticate" people with fresh nettles externally.  I also

had the guy I worked with taking fresh Nettle tincture internally, as

well.  The chemicals that cause the sting break down when the plant is

dried, wouldn't this action be lost in dry leaf tea?



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Can you use nettles for Carpal Tunnel Syndrome? If yes, how?

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum@hotmail.com>

To: <herb@lists.ibiblio.org>

Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 10:09 PM



> What about preserving the medicinal "sting"?  I tincture fresh nettles

> and have used them in treating nerve-related problems, either from

> accidents, or degenerative in nature (along with other herbs, of

> course> 





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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Nettles

Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia

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"jim mcdonald" <multiflorum@hotmail.com> wrote to herb@lists.ibiblio.org:



> >(Nettles) Not useless, just a waste of good alcohol. It's definitely better 

> >as a tea.

> 

> What about preserving the medicinal "sting"?  I tincture fresh nettles

> and have used them in treating nerve-related problems, either from



Dried nettle still stings. 



Dried + cut'n'sifted nettle does not sting, nor does boiled, or tinctured.



Henriette



-- 

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Henriette Kress wrote:



> Dried nettle still stings.

>

> Dried + cut'n'sifted nettle does not sting, nor does boiled, or tinctured.



Why does processing it to the 'cut & sift' stage eliminate the sting?



Thanks,

May



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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

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Subject: Re: [Herb] Nettles

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May Terry <mterry@snet.net> wrote to herb@lists.ibiblio.org:

> Henriette Kress wrote:

> 

> > Dried nettle still stings.

> >

> > Dried + cut'n'sifted nettle does not sting, nor does boiled, or tinctured.

> 

> Why does processing it to the 'cut & sift' stage eliminate the sting?



The sting comes from small fluid-filled hairs. When they break, no sting.

Cut'n'sift and you've pretty much broken all hairs.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed

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From plantpeople@triton.net Wed Aug 07 21:32:29 2002

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Subject: [Herb] fermented chokecherry tea

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>What is fermented chokecherry tea. Veronica



Wine ;-))



...makes a wonderful nice dry red.  If you age it about 5 years, is reminiscent of bordeuax.... 

Joycew

------------------------------------------

Every great Oak Tree, was once just a nut, that stood its ground





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Somehow,  dosages can get me very confused. When a cold strikes I might 

take 20 drops of elderberry tincture three times a day. Grandpa would have 

two or three glasses of elderberry wine anytime he felt like it. I wonder 

how (unintentionally)  medicinal some of the old homemade wines actually 

were. I think of glasses elder, choke cherry, sour cherry,  huckleberry and 

even grape wines and then think of how we take just a few drops of 

tinctures and are careful not to overdose.



Any comments? Veronica





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From: elementalclay@webtv.net (Roxanne Brown)

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  My great grandfather Carl lived to be 100.  He had a glass of

elderberry wine in the evenings.

  I think if we go back to that generation where food came from the

garden and the barn and the wine was homemade as well it would greatly

enhance our modern health.

  I have a chamomile and green tea wine that should be ready to drink in

December.  Homemade ginger beer is delicious on a hot evening.  So is

dandelion leaf and roasted root beer.

Roxanne 



Roxanne J. Brown

Elemental Clay

http://www.cloudnet.com/~elemclay/

"One does not learn by speaking"



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At 03:17 PM 8/7/02 -0500, you wrote:

>   My great grandfather Carl lived to be 100.  He had a glass of

>elderberry wine in the evenings.

>



I have been collecting many recipes for elderberry wine and most of the 

time folks rave about their recipe it contains quite a high percentage of 

grapes (or grape juice). Anyone out there have a recipe for good elder wine 

that does not have the grapes?  Ofcourse this wine would be for used for 

medicinal purposes only!!!!!!!!!!   Veronica





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Veronica wrote--



Anyone out there have a recipe for good elder wine 

that does not have the grapes? Ofcourse this wine would be for used for 

medicinal purposes only!!!!!!!!!! Veronica





Hi Veronica,



The elderberry wine we made was completely from ripe elderberries.  We added

a few wild grape leaves (not grapes) as well as the sugar and it femented

nicely into a sparkling sweet wine that we used whenever we d*** we pleased.

.lovely stuff!



Aliceann



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. I think of glasses elder, choke cherry, sour cherry,  

> huckleberry and 

> even grape wines and then think of how we take just a few drops of 

> tinctures and are careful not to overdose.

> 

> Any comments? Veronica



For me, some things feel like food ( if there is still a culinary

herblist?), and other things feel like medicine and tinctures in water

tend to be remeniscent (spelling?) of medicinal MD prescribed liquids to

be taken by mouth, and some tinctures may tend to act like medicinal

liquids---osha in water, e.g..

presenting a taste and an ODOR.



Good luck and good health to you and yours,

Marcia

---

> 

> 

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> Herb@lists.ibiblio.org

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From: Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm@ca.inter.net>

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Subject: [Herb] Herbal Based Wines

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Dear Roxanne, and The List



I make home made wine, and would like to make a number

of herb based wines, for both medicinal purposes, and

for simple drinking pleasure.



Would anyone have suggestions for such wines, and if

possible, url's that would take me to a recipe?



An interesting concept here is that the wine is

basically a "grown in place tincture." That is only

partially true, in that the 10% to 12% alcohol  that

exists in wine may not be able to extract constituents

requiring higher alcohol contents for solubility.



Any suggestions welcome!!



Thanks in advance



Kevin Chisholm



Roxanne Brown wrote:

> 

>   My great grandfather Carl lived to be 100.  He had a glass of

> elderberry wine in the evenings.

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From: elementalclay@webtv.net (Roxanne Brown)

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Herbal Based Wines

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Kevin,

  I make old fashioned kitchen wine and finally broke down and bought

actual wine yeast.

  Here are a few recipes I use.  I am omitting basic brewing because of

the length.  Each one is for a gallon.

  Chamomile, Lime and Green Tea

8 bags green tea

2 bags black tea

2 handfuls chamomile

1 handful cornmeal

zest and juice of four limes

3 cups sugar

3 quarts boiling water

Next day add yeast

  

Nettle Wine

8 cups spring nettle tops

1 pound raisins

6 1/2 cups sugar

1 Tbl cornmeal (replaces yeast nutrient)

2 lemons or oranges (juice and zest)

1 gallon boiling water

Next day add one tsp yeast



Carrot and Hops

3 1/2 pound carrots cut fine and boiled in 2 quarts of water until done

1/2 ounce dried hops

 2 1/2 pound brown sugar

Juice and zest of one lemon

Water to make a gallon

1 tsp yeast

Carrots in five days and strain

(I really like this one)



Calendula

3 quarts fresh calendula flowers

2 lemons juice and zest

1 Tbl cornmeal.

3 pounds sugar

I gallon boiling water

Add one tsp yeast the next day



Blackberry

4 pounds of blackberries

7 pints boiling water

2 1/4 pounds sugar

juice and zest of two lemons

1/2 tsp peptic enzyme

1 Tbl cornmeal

Yeast after 24 hours, berries strained after five days.



Hawthorne (haven't tried this one)

6 pounds of hawthorne berries collected after a couple of frosts

1 gallon boiling water

juice and zest of 3 lemons

1 tsp peptic enzyme

3 pounds sugar

8 oz strong black tea or 1/4 tsp tannin

1 tsp yeast nutrient

1 packet wine yeast

Strain after one week

Roxanne



Roxanne J. Brown

Elemental Clay

http://www.cloudnet.com/~elemclay/

"One does not learn by speaking"



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Dear Roxanne



Thanks very much for the interesting recipes... I can

run with them....

I have a few questios:



1: I haven't seen cornmeal additions to wine.... you

suggest them as a source of yeast nutrients. Does the

cornmeal give a starch haze?



2: Pardon my ignorance, but when you call for "lemon

and zest", what is "zest?"



Thanks again.



BTW... I make a spectacular Beet Wine... it has an

unequalled brilliant red. The only problem is that it

tastes like beets!! :-( On occasion, I have had a good

blend of lemon and ginger, which hid the earthy taste

of the beets, but was never able to get a consistent

flavoring effect.



Kindest regards,



Kevin Chisholm





 

Roxanne Brown wrote:

> 

> Kevin,

>   I make old fashioned kitchen wine and finally broke down and bought

> actual wine yeast.

...del....

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From: Veronica Honthaas <honthaas@bigsky.net>

Subject: Re: [Herb] Herbal Based Wines

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>

>

>BTW... I make a spectacular Beet Wine... it has an

>unequalled brilliant red. The only problem is that it

>tastes like beets!! :-( On occasion, I have had a good

>blend of lemon and ginger, which hid the earthy taste

>of the beets, but was never able to get a consistent

>flavoring effect.

When I make beet wine I add some other fruits to set off the taste of the 

beet................it is my second favorite homemade wine coming in just 

after sour cherry.  I like to add rhubarb, sour apple, pie cherry, maybe 

some raspberries or whatever else is ripe at the time.  Veronca



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From: "GardenThyme Lady" <dblan@netusa1.net>

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Subject: RE: [Herb] Herbal Based Wines

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Thanks for the recipes Roxanne, I just made a batch of blackberry wine,

first time for that and It seems to be fermenting well.  I just added  sugar

and yeast to the strained berries, covered  with a plastic baggie.  I

noticed cornmeal in several of the recipes, what does this do for the wine?

I suppose any flavorful herbs could be used in wine.



Dee

"The Gardenthyme Lady"

"Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time," he says, "It is

regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable."~Sydney Harris







-----Original Message-----

From: herb-admin@lists.ibiblio.org

[mailto:herb-admin@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Roxanne Brown

Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:43 AM

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Herbal Based Wines





Kevin,

  I make old fashioned kitchen wine and finally broke down and bought

actual wine yeast.

  Here are a few recipes I use.  I am omitting basic brewing because of

the length.  Each one is for a gallon.

  Chamomile, Lime and Green Tea

8 bags green tea

2 bags black tea

2 handfuls chamomile

1 handful cornmeal

zest and juice of four limes

3 cups sugar

3 quarts boiling water

Next day add yeast



Nettle Wine

8 cups spring nettle tops

1 pound raisins

6 1/2 cups sugar

1 Tbl cornmeal (replaces yeast nutrient)

2 lemons or oranges (juice and zest)

1 gallon boiling water

Next day add one tsp yeast



Carrot and Hops

3 1/2 pound carrots cut fine and boiled in 2 quarts of water until done

1/2 ounce dried hops

 2 1/2 pound brown sugar

Juice and zest of one lemon

Water to make a gallon

1 tsp yeast

Carrots in five days and strain

(I really like this one)



Calendula

3 quarts fresh calendula flowers

2 lemons juice and zest

1 Tbl cornmeal.

3 pounds sugar

I gallon boiling water

Add one tsp yeast the next day



Blackberry

4 pounds of blackberries

7 pints boiling water

2 1/4 pounds sugar

juice and zest of two lemons

1/2 tsp peptic enzyme

1 Tbl cornmeal

Yeast after 24 hours, berries strained after five days.



Hawthorne (haven't tried this one)

6 pounds of hawthorne berries collected after a couple of frosts

1 gallon boiling water

juice and zest of 3 lemons

1 tsp peptic enzyme

3 pounds sugar

8 oz strong black tea or 1/4 tsp tannin

1 tsp yeast nutrient

1 packet wine yeast

Strain after one week

Roxanne



Roxanne J. Brown

Elemental Clay

http://www.cloudnet.com/~elemclay/

"One does not learn by speaking"



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From: Veronica Honthaas <honthaas@bigsky.net>

Subject: Re: [Herb] Herbal Based Wines

In-Reply-To: <23495-3D5220F6-1902@storefull-2192.public.lawson.webtv.net

 >

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Thanks for the recipes. Can you give some personal experience on how these 

wines taste.  Last night I found a recipe for elderberry/hawthorn 

wine.  Sure sounded like an excellent healthy excuse for a sip of vino at 

night. Veronica







At 02:42 AM 8/8/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Kevin,

>   I make old fashioned kitchen wine and finally broke down and bought

>actual wine yeast.

>   Here are a few recipes I use.  I am omitting basic brewing because of

>the length.  Each one is for a gallon.

>   Chamomile, Lime and Green Tea

>8 bags green tea

>2 bags black tea

>2 handfuls chamomile

>1 handful cornmeal

>zest and juice of four limes

>3 cups sugar

>3 quarts boiling water

>Next day add yeast

>

>Nettle Wine

>8 cups spring nettle tops

>1 pound raisins

>6 1/2 cups sugar

>1 Tbl cornmeal (replaces yeast nutrient)

>2 lemons or oranges (juice and zest)

>1 gallon boiling water

>Next day add one tsp yeast

>

>Carrot and Hops

>3 1/2 pound carrots cut fine and boiled in 2 quarts of water until done

>1/2 ounce dried hops

>  2 1/2 pound brown sugar

>Juice and zest of one lemon

>Water to make a gallon

>1 tsp yeast

>Carrots in five days and strain

>(I really like this one)

>

>Calendula

>3 quarts fresh calendula flowers

>2 lemons juice and zest

>1 Tbl cornmeal.

>3 pounds sugar

>I gallon boiling water

>Add one tsp yeast the next day

>

>Blackberry

>4 pounds of blackberries

>7 pints boiling water

>2 1/4 pounds sugar

>juice and zest of two lemons

>1/2 tsp peptic enzyme

>1 Tbl cornmeal

>Yeast after 24 hours, berries strained after five days.

>

>Hawthorne (haven't tried this one)

>6 pounds of hawthorne berries collected after a couple of frosts

>1 gallon boiling water

>juice and zest of 3 lemons

>1 tsp peptic enzyme

>3 pounds sugar

>8 oz strong black tea or 1/4 tsp tannin

>1 tsp yeast nutrient

>1 packet wine yeast

>Strain after one week

>Roxanne

>

>Roxanne J. Brown

>Elemental Clay

>http://www.cloudnet.com/~elemclay/

>"One does not learn by speaking"

>

>_______________________________________________

>Herb mailing list

>Herb@lists.ibiblio.org

>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/herb





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From: elementalclay@webtv.net (Roxanne Brown)

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Herbal Based Wines

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I am hesitant to take this topic too far as we are getting into wine

making and off the topic of herbs. However, I will answer the questions.

(smile)

  No, I do not have a starch haze using cornmeal as a nutrient but I do

not use it all the time.  Only for the lighter wines,  I rack them

fairly often, as soon as a visual full layer of sediment occurs.  Bottle

when completely clear.

  Zest is the outer skin of the citrus fruit without any of the bitter

white layer.  I grate it off.

  How do they taste?  That is hard to answer.  They are not like a fine

chardonney, that's for sure. (G)  They are on the sweet side and medium

bodied.  My mead tastes like dandelion flowers smell.  Sweet and earthy.

  Many good recipes may be found by searching for historic wines and

meads.

Roxanne



Roxanne J. Brown

Elemental Clay

http://www.cloudnet.com/~elemclay/

"One does not learn by speaking"



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From: elementalclay@webtv.net (Roxanne Brown)

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Subject: RE: [Herb] Herbal Based Wines

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Dee,

  I wish I had blackberries to make into wine.  Wonderful for the

stomach.  I also have a friend using blackberry root very successfully

for chronic diahrrea due to botched chemo.

  The corn meal in the wine recipes serves as food for the yeast.

  With Henriettes approval I could give the address of another list that

deals with making wine from primarily wild fruits and berries.

Roxanne



Roxanne J. Brown

Elemental Clay

http://www.cloudnet.com/~elemclay/

"One does not learn by speaking"



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From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum@hotmail.com>

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] beer & wine

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Hmm... I've made several batches of beer, including Yarrow (interesting

taste, not bad, but very few of my friends asked for a second

glass...), and Lemon Balm, which was, in my opinion, exquisite (and

quite potent).  Stephen Buhner's Sacred Herbal and Healing Beers is a

great book with over a hundred recipes for old medicinal beers, ranging

from an intimidating but alluring Henbane Ale to the aforementioned

Lemon Balm Ale, to the ridiculously awful sounding Mustard ale.  Many

of these ales are adapted from wine recipes.  There are several recipes

for Elder Berry & Flower fermentations.



I'm very interested in making a Hawthorne-Bilberry wine, as my

Hawthorne-Bilberry tincture tastes so good that I can only imagine how

nice it'd be to have a whole glassful of that combination.  Could

anyone suggest a recipe?



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From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum@hotmail.com>

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Subject: Re: [Herb] Carpel Tunnel (from Nettles)

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>Can you use nettles for Carpal Tunnel Syndrome? If yes, how?



I've never used Nettle for carpal tunnel, though I know people who have

rubbed fresh netlle into there wrists and hands every spring for

arthritis & rhuematism, and said that since they've been doing that

they haven't been bothered by either.  I pick my Nettles bare handed

every spring, hopefully this'll serve as a long term preventative.



The guy I got to "urticate" was in a bike accident; flipped over the

handlebars and landed on his face (OW!).  He chipped a vertabrae in his

spine and had a tingling sensation, but little feeling, in his fingers -

a good indication for the use of nettles.  He did this probably a

dozen times, and reported that he noticed a more rapid improvement than

before he began.  He was also on fresh nettle extract internally, and

using St. John's Wort Oil topically as well.  A few months later, he

was fine.  His doctor said he recovered very well, but warned him

that "messing around with herbs was dangerous".



I have used fresh Solomon's Seal root tincture on several occasions for

repetative motion injuries, and this is certainly at least part of what

I'd recommend for Carpel Tunnel... up to 10 drops, 2-3x daily, though

I've seen as little as 3 drops doses work well.  This application, and

miniscule dosage, is covered in Matthew Wood's Book of Herbal Wisdom.

I use Solomon's Seal Root in most injuries involving joints, bones &

tendons, and am -always- amazed at the results.  It also works quite

well for arthritis.  Since its not readily available, you usually have

to gather yourself.



I CAN'T STATE ENOUGH HOW IMPORTANT ETHICAL HARVEST IS, this plant could

easily be wiped out by careless harvest.  I always gather the root like

this:  Trace down the stem and find the root in the soil, usually it's

not too deep.  The front has a bud for next years growth, and the back

can extend quite a ways, resembling a series of knuckles.  With the

plant still in the ground, cut the back of the root a couple inches or

more from the stem, and pull that out without at all disturbing the

growing portion of the plant.  Collected this way, the plants will show

no sign of impact from harvest, and often the roots will start to grow

from the cut end, producing more foliage, more berries, and more new

plants.  The stands I harvest from are more abundant now than when I

first wildcrafted them.  This technique works well on any rhizome long

enough to cut the back end off of.







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Subject: [Herb] NIH study on SJW

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Greetings Herb-Listers:



I finally got around to responding to the NIH study

on SJW. 



Most of the critical comments that I've read

related to the fact that the NIH study involved

patients with severe major depression, while most

herbalists use SJW for mild to moderate major

depression. I believe this is a weak response

for the failure of SJW in the NIH study. Many 

studies demonstrating efficacy were, in fact, 

done in severely depressed subjects.



The authors of the study seemed to rationalize 

why sertraline was equivalent to placebo, suggesting 

the reason was because of the difficulty in 

antidepressants to show an effect in the first

place (35% of studies show they are equivalent to

placebo, as stated by the authors of the NIH study,

although I think the figure might be higher),

but didn't do so for SJW. In fact, one antidepressant

(ie. nefazodone) had 6 unsuccessful trials before

the drug company demonstrated a superiority of its

drug over placebo ..and then got approval from the FDA.



SJW got short changed, as we all know, but I don't

think we all really know how. Read the following

article which will appear in the pharmacy 

newsletters of about 230 hospitals.



I may have additional comments for my own

list service. For those interested, you can

join by sending an email to:

naturalpharmacy-subscribe@topica.com.





Regards,



Elliot Freeman RPh

The Shared Newsletter





ST JOHN'S WORT FOR DEPRESSION?



     In 1996, a meta-analysis concluded that St. Johns 

Wort (SJW, Hypericum perforatum) is superior to placebo 

in mild to moderate depression.[1] Shortly thereafter a 

large multi-million dollar NIH trial was organized to 

study SJW. In that study, which was reported in 

April[2], 340 patients with moderate to severe major 

depression were randomized to receive either SJW 

(900-1500mg/day), sertraline (50-100mg/day), or placebo. 

There were two primary outcomes: 1) the amount of 

response (decrease in Hamilton Depression [HAM-D] scale) 

and 2) the number of subjects with complete response 

(decrease to normal HAM-D of 8 and Clinical Global 

Impression [CGI-I score of 1 [very much improved] or 

2 [much improved]). Secondary end points included 

less sensitive instruments (GAF, CGI, BDI, and SDS 

scores). The results of the primary outcome showed 

SJW and sertraline to be similar to placebo (HAM-D 

reduction: -8.7 and -10.5 vs -9.2) and the proportion 

of patients with full responses were 30.5% and 31.2% 

for SJW and sertraline vs 41.6% for placebo. 

Following additional analysis, sertraline did show 

an improvement on the CGI score, whereas SJW did 

not. 



     According to the investigators, from a methodological point of view, it is important to include both an inactive 

and inactive comparator to test the possible antidepressant effects of a medication. "In fact," state the authors, 

"without a placebo, hypericum (another name for SJW) 

could easily have been considered as effective as 

sertraline", implying that the study showed sertraline 

to be more effective than SJW. In 3 press releases 

from JAMA, Duke University, and NIH, it was stated 

that results of the study demonstrated SJW was 

ineffective in major depression. 

     

     Other experts offered a different conclusion of 

the NIH study. According to Jerry Cott Ph.D., former 

Chief of the Psychopharmacology Research Program at 

the National Institute of Mental Health who was involved 

in the original design of the trial, the study should 

be considered "neutral", one that simply fails to show effectiveness of either treatment rather than proving 

the test drug doesn't work. The NIH designed this trial 

to include a standard antidepressant (sertraline) as an "active comparator" to document the sensitivity 

of the trial, that is, the ability of the trial to 

detect a valid treatment effect. The fact that 

sertraline was not effective in the primary measures 

of depression demonstrates (according to the NIH's 

own design protocol) that this trial lacked assay 

sensitivity and should not be considered a 

successful study.[3] "The success or failure of a 

therapeutic trial is determined strictly by the 

primary outcome," said Cott. "It is unscientific to 

try to prove the validity of a trial with a 

secondary outcome when the primary outcome fails." 

He concluded the study was invalid.[4] If secondary 

outcomes were valid, the study by Shelton(funded 

by Pfizer) would have to interpreted as positive 

for SJW, since the percentage of patients who 

recovered from depression, which was a secondary 

outcome, was significantly greater with SJW than 

placebo (14.3% vs 4.9%, p=.02).[5]   



     The lack of sensitivity in the NIH study may 

have been due to the selection of patients. The 

criteria for enrollment was initially determined as 

a HAM-D score of 15. Later the criteria was changed 

to 17, then changed again to 20. This may have been 

a problem, according to Cott, since most drug 

trials use a HAM-D of 17 as entry criteria. In fact, 

Walsh et al (in the same issue of JAMA as the NIH 

trial) found a mean HAM-D score of 16.7 in clinical 

trials of depression.[6]  In addition, the duration 

of participant's illness was quite long, more than 

1/3 were over 2 years. This may have resulted in 

a higher rate of treatment resistant patients. 

Conclusion: Patients with moderate-to-severe major 

depression seeking aid from a physician should be 

treated with an appropriate drug; however, on the 

basis of the NIH trial, it would be inappropriate 

to tell those interested in taking SJW that it is 

ineffective. 

  1. Linde K. BMJ 1996;313:253-8                     

  2. Hypericum Depression Trial Study Group.

     JAMA 2002;287:1807-14                           

  3. Am Botanical Council Press Release. Apr 9, 2002.

     www.herbalgram.org

  4. Jerry Cott Ph.D. Personal Communication, July 2002

  5. Shelton RC. JAMA 2001;285:1978-86

  6. Walsh BT. JAMA 2002;287:1840-7



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Subject: [Herb] Lemon Balm

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Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:19:23 -0400

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Greetings Herb-Listers:



I prepared the following article, which will appear 

in about 230 hospital pharmacy newsletters. My next 

task will be to find a supplier that can set a 

lotion-bottle dispenser to a set amount. If anyone 

knows of a manufacturer that I can get in touch with, 

please reply to me at elfreem@aol.com directly or 

to the list, but cc to me. Also, if anyone in the 

U.S. has manufacturing capability (on a small scale), 

please let me know directly.



Regards,



Elliot Freeman RPh

The Shared Newsletter



ps for those interested in receiving information on

evidence-based natural remedies, please send an

email to "naturalpharmacy-subscribe@topica.com".





AROMATHERAPY SAFE AND EFFECTIVE FOR AGITATION IN SEVERE DEMENTIA



     Lemon balm has been used in medical herbalism historically for symptoms of anxiety, restlessness, excitability, and depression and its safety has been 

well established, according to Ballard et al.1 A 

series of case reports and a small clinical trial 

of Lemon balm in patients with dementia indicated 

a positive benefit.2,3 In the first double-blind, 

placebo-controlled report in a major U.S. journal, aromatherapy was shown to be effective in the 

treatment of behavioral and psychological symptoms 

in dementia. Lemon balm ( Melissa officinalis)  

essential oil 10% by weight (or sunflower oil) in 

a base lotion was applied topically in doses of 

0.16-0.17g to the patient's face and arms for a 

total of 3 doses twice a day (200mg of oil). 

Cohen-Mansfield Agitation Inventory (CMAI) scores 

were significantly reduced from baseline in those 

who received Melissa compared with placebo-lotion 

(35% vs 11% reduction). Twenty-one subjects (60%) 

receiving applications of lemon balm lotion had a 

30% improvement, which is the threshold generally 

defined as clinically significant, compared with 

only 5 (14%) of placebo-patients. There was also 

a significant reduction in time spent withdrawn 

and an increase in the time spent in constructive 

activities.1

  1. Ballard CG. J Clin Psychiatry 2002;63:553-8           

  2. Brooker DJ. Br J Clin Psychol 1997;36:287-96

  3. Mitchell S. Int J Aromather 1993;5:20-4



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From hkobayas@students.uiuc.edu Fri Aug 09 19:36:08 2002

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Subject: [Herb] NIH study

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Elliot,



<Most of the critical comments that I've read related to the fact that the NIH 

study involved patients with severe major depression, while most

herbalists use SJW for mild to moderate major depression. I believe this is a 

weak response for the failure of SJW in the NIH study. Many studies 

demonstrating efficacy were, in fact, done in severely depressed subjects.>



I read all the letters that apperaed in JAMA, and only one person pointed this 

out. The authors' defence is that they are currently conducting a study on the 

efficacy of SJW on mild depression. One reason they conducted this particular 

study on more severe depression is due to the fact previous studies indicated 

the use of this herb may be useful in treatment of severe cases.



I personally think the most critical comments I read was the fact the 

population they chose may have contained patients with resistant to treatments 

and design of the experiments. It is obvious the sensitivity of the study has 

significantly contributed to teh outcome. In addition, side effects of 

settaline (Zoloft) may have caused participants to withdraw from the study as 

well.



<SJW got short changed, as we all know, but I don't think we all really know 

how. Read the following article which will appear in the pharmacy

newsletters of about 230 hospitals.>



Maybe, but it was not successful. If they are barking at the wrong tree, 

that's their mistake. I personally found it interesting to notice this study 

was virtually ignored by the media. This is highly contrasting to what they 

did last year when a similar article appeared in JAMA. I thought it had 

something to do with the fact Zoloft was found no more effective than placebo.



Hideka



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From elementalclay@webtv.net Sat Aug 10 09:15:56 2002

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From: elementalclay@webtv.net (Roxanne Brown)

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Henriette was kind enough to allow me to post the information about the

wild wine list.  

  Go to www.yahoogroups.com and put WildWines into the search.  Or

e-mail

wildwines-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Roxanne



Roxanne J. Brown

Elemental Clay

http://www.cloudnet.com/~elemclay/

"One does not learn by speaking"



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From: elementalclay@webtv.net (Roxanne Brown)

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Subject: [Herb] Hep C

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  I have an on-line friend and her husband has Hep C.  They are treating

it in a traditional manner but is now on a hiatus from meds.

  She is open to any herbal or alternative methods of treatment.

  I have no knowledge of treating this so I am thinking milk thistle and

astragulas.

  Please post your thoughts.

Roxanne



Roxanne J. Brown

Elemental Clay

http://www.cloudnet.com/~elemclay/

"One does not learn by speaking"



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From lakshmi@kingcon.com Sat Aug 10 14:20:15 2002

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From: "Michelle Morton-niyama" <lakshmi@kingcon.com>

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   I have an on-line friend and her husband has Hep C.  > Roxanne

>

> Roxanne J. Brown



Roxanne-

Michael Tierra's site has a couple articles about treating Hep C herbally-

and the results have been good.

go to www.planetherbs.com  and click on articles- or there may be a direct

link.

HTH

Michelle



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Subject: Re: [Herb] Hep C

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On Sat, 10 Aug 2002 01:19:58 -0500 (CDT) elementalclay@webtv.net (Roxanne

Brown) writes:

>   I have an on-line friend and her husband has Hep C.  They are 

treating

> it in a traditional manner but is now on a hiatus from meds.

>   She is open to any herbal or alternative methods of treatment.

>   I have no knowledge of treating this so I am thinking milk thistle 

> and

> astragulas.



Well you would be  helping the liver and the resistance.  Is this going

to be comfortable for him?  Will he need marshmallow in the mixture for

comfort?  Should you consider dandelion in addition to the milk thistle?

Is he on a hiatus from antibiotics? Is MD open to discussion?



Good luck,

Marcia

---





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From ahovi@palmenia2.lpt.fi Sat Aug 10 17:31:14 2002

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A relative of mine was exposed to giant hogweed. Two days later 

she had a red spot in her neck an red colouring in her chest. More 

photodermatitis developed on her breast area. Later on the skin 

changed into almost normal, but in 2 weeks time an inflammation 

(like mastitis), edema or watery cyst had developed inside the 

breast. 

Has anyone heard of a similar reaction influenced by some 

phototoxic plant like giant hogweed (Heracleum mantegazzianum, 

H. persicum, H. lacianiatum)?

Now they have determined that it is not an inflammation with 

bacteria, neither it is a watery cyst and it can be something more 

serious. But a recent mammography found nothing suspicious.

Nobody seems to have any experience, that a thing like this could 

develop from photodermatitis, which gives usually only blisters to 

the surface of the skin.

She has tried compresses of cabbage leaves and compresses with 

quark (recommended in Europe in order to draw out fluids). Would 

sage tea have a positive effect?



Antti Hovi





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Can anyone sell me some good Eucalyptus oil and some Nell seed oil (I think 

I have that right)?



Thanks,

Vicki



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Can anyone sell me some good Eucalyptus oil and some Neem oil (I think I 

have that right now)?



Thanks,

Vicki 



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from Victoria Satta <victoria2@goeaston.net>:



> Can anyone sell me some good Eucalyptus oil and some Neem oil (I think I 

> have that right now)?



I don't know about Neem oil, but think any good dealer of essential oils would

carry Eucalyptus oil.

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Subject: [Herb] Black cohosh

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Dear all:



I am looking for the extract of black cohosh, does anyone know where to

purchase the good quality product?

Great thanks!



Elsa Chung



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From multiflorum@hotmail.com Mon Aug 12 16:23:29 2002

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From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum@hotmail.com>

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Black cohosh

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>I am looking for the extract of black cohosh, does anyone know where to

>purchase the good quality product?

>Elsa Chung



I bought a couple pounds of fresh organically grown Black Cohosh Root from 

Zack Woods Herb Farm last year, and without a doubt the tinctures I made 

from this fresh root (1:2 / 95%) were FAR better than any dried root 

preparation I've ever used.  The flavor of a fresh Black Cohosh is 

incredible, with a sweetness that isn't found in the dry root.  If you have 

access to grain alcohol, it is far, far more economical to make your own 

tincture than to buy it commercially.  Plus, using organically grown Black 

Cohosh will help to keep our wild populations growing in the woods.  

Everything I've ever gotten from Zack Woods has been of exceptional quality, 

and the people are a pleasure to patronize.



You can contact Zack Woods Herb Farm at zackwoods@pshift.com.



_________________________________________________________________

Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com



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From: "Thomas Mueller" <tmueller@bluegrass.net>

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Subject: Re: [Herb] Black cohosh

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from =?big5?B?q8C6frS1?= <suliotis@ms28.hinet.net>:



> I am looking for the extract of black cohosh, does anyone know where to

> purchase the good quality product?

> Great thanks!



> Elsa Chung



In the USA, Blessed Herbs (http://www.blessedherbs.com/), among others, carries

black cohosh extract as well as the dried herb, but I don't know if they ship

to where you are.  It would be helpful if you said where you were located.

China?

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Subject: Re: [Herb] Black cohosh

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Those information is useful.

Great thanks!



I come from Taiwan, and will try to ask if they would ship here.

Thanks once again.



Elsa Chung



----- Original Message -----

From: Thomas Mueller <tmueller@bluegrass.net>

To: <herb@lists.ibiblio.org>

Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 10:53 PM

Subject: Re: [Herb] Black cohosh





> from =?big5?B?q8C6frS1?= <suliotis@ms28.hinet.net>:

>

> > I am looking for the extract of black cohosh, does anyone know where to

> > purchase the good quality product?

> > Great thanks!

>

> > Elsa Chung

>

> In the USA, Blessed Herbs (http://www.blessedherbs.com/), among others,

carries

> black cohosh extract as well as the dried herb, but I don't know if they

ship

> to where you are.  It would be helpful if you said where you were located.

> China?

> _______________________________________________

> Herb mailing list

> Herb@lists.ibiblio.org

> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/herb

>



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Subject: Re: [Herb] Black cohosh

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I believe Black cohosh is the same as the Chinese herb sheng ma. You may

want to check that out. I'm sure you would have no trouble finding sheng ma

since it is very commonly used.

bob

----- Original Message -----

From: "~" <suliotis@ms28.hinet.net>

To: <herb@lists.ibiblio.org>

Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 1:10 PM

Subject: Re: [Herb] Black cohosh





Those information is useful.

Great thanks!



I come from Taiwan, and will try to ask if they would ship here.

Thanks once again.



Elsa Chung



----- Original Message -----

From: Thomas Mueller <tmueller@bluegrass.net>

To: <herb@lists.ibiblio.org>

Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 10:53 PM

Subject: Re: [Herb] Black cohosh





> from =?big5?B?q8C6frS1?= <suliotis@ms28.hinet.net>:

>

> > I am looking for the extract of black cohosh, does anyone know where to

> > purchase the good quality product?

> > Great thanks!

>

> > Elsa Chung

>

> In the USA, Blessed Herbs (http://www.blessedherbs.com/), among others,

carries

> black cohosh extract as well as the dried herb, but I don't know if they

ship

> to where you are.  It would be helpful if you said where you were located.

> China?

> _______________________________________________

> Herb mailing list

> Herb@lists.ibiblio.org

> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/herb

>



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Subject: [Herb] re: the NIH SJW study

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> <Most of the critical comments that I've read related to the fact that the NIH

> study involved patients with severe major depression, while most

> herbalists use SJW for mild to moderate major depression. I believe this is a

> weak response for the failure of SJW in the NIH study. Many studies

> demonstrating efficacy were, in fact, done in severely depressed subjects.>

> 

> I read all the letters that apperaed in JAMA, and only one person pointed this

> out. The authors' defence is that they are currently conducting a study on the

> efficacy of SJW on mild depression. One reason they conducted this particular

> study on more severe depression is due to the fact previous studies indicated

> the use of this herb may be useful in treatment of severe cases.

> 

> I personally think the most critical comments I read was the fact the

> population they chose may have contained patients with resistant to treatments

> and design of the experiments. It is obvious the sensitivity of the study has

> significantly contributed to teh outcome. In addition, side effects of

> settaline (Zoloft) may have caused participants to withdraw from the study as

> well.





Yes, you are quite correct about comments in JAMA. What I meant

to say was that the critical comments about the NIH study from herbalists were similar to the JAMA study by Shelton last year,

which was that the study population had severe depression while herbalists generally treat mild to moderate depression

and do not recommend SJW for severe depression. This was the critique as I recall from ABC and others. In my opinion, its weak and doesn't address the fact that the NIH study itself was invalid.





> 

> <SJW got short changed, as we all know, but I don't think we all really know

> how. Read the following article which will appear in the pharmacy

> newsletters of about 230 hospitals.>

> 

> Maybe, but it was not successful. If they are barking at the wrong tree,

> that's their mistake. I personally found it interesting to notice this study

> was virtually ignored by the media. This is highly contrasting to what they

> did last year when a similar article appeared in JAMA. I thought it had

> something to do with the fact Zoloft was found no more 

> effective than placebo.

> 

> Hideka



While it may be their mistake, it was a mistake picked up

by the media and millions listened to it. The study was not

ignored by the media here. The problem with the NIH trial is similar to all trials with antidepresants that most people, including MDs, are not unfamiliar ..that is that in 70% to 80% of all trials, antidepressants are about as effective as placebos. These trials, however, are never published ..only the ones that turn out positive for the drug. For example, it took 6 trials before nefazodone was found to be better than placebo. Hello!



What does that tell you about the clinical efficacy of nefazodone? I haven't looked at other drugs, but I'm sure the tale would be the same. Ever since the fiasco with one of the COX-2 inhibitors falsifying data for publication (providing 6 months of data showing efficacy in a 12 months study showing

inefficacy and as I recall higher mortality), FDA was forced to put all clinical trials on their web site for all to read.

These trials were evaluated by Kirsch.



See the following link and read the article by Kirsch

entitled "The Emperor's New Drugs: An Analysis of Antidepressant Medication Data Submitted to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration" and related commentaries:



http://journals.apa.org/prevention/



Back to SJW, instead of stating the obvious ..that the study was insensitive (the positive control, sertaline, was no better than placebo), they concluded that SJW was ineffective but excused sertraline based on secondary outcome measure which is unscientific according to one of the NIHM staffers who helped design the study in the first place.



There will be another multimillion dollar NIH study on

chelation therapy, which I'm sure will be conducted similarly to the one done for SJW ...poorly! For an analysis on that, when it is published (non-herbal), send an email to:

naturalpharmacy-subscribe@topica.com.



Elliot Freeman RPh

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From: "GardenThyme Lady" <dblan@netusa1.net>

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I'm looking for a good source for milk thistle.  I understand it's not

something that can be wildcrafted because it's hard to get the proper dosage

necessary for helping liver function.  The health food store sells 60 caps

of 200 mg for $15.00.  I have no idea if that is a good price.  GNC has

smaller 30 cap containers for $9.00.  No larger size was available.

thanks,



Dee

"The Gardenthyme Lady"





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From: "Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1@mn.rr.com>

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Subject: RE: [Herb] milk thistle

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In what form are you trying to obtain the milk thistle? I would never

purchase powdered herbs or capsules from a store. There's just no way of

knowing how old the herb is and for how long it's been powdered.



Silybum doesn't extract well as an infusion, so from what I understand, a

fluidextract or STRONG tincture is the best way to go. Or you could go with

a standardized extract (70-80% silymarin).



Kerry



-----Original Message-----

From: herb-admin@lists.ibiblio.org



I'm looking for a good source for milk thistle.





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From: "GardenThyme Lady" <dblan@netusa1.net>

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Subject: RE: [Herb] milk thistle

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Okay, so what your saying is to use a tincture of milk thistle?  How would I

make this to reach the maximum level of liver protection?  Milk thistle

grows all around here, but I thought it was not feasible to make a tincture

and get the amount (80%) of silymarin without having it commercially made. I

believe I read this information from Michael Moore, but it's been awhile and

I can't really remember exactly how it was. I can get everclear in my state,

and I make lots of herbal tinctures, so if it is a do-able thing, that would

be great. Would I double or triple tincture?   Any information is greatly

appreciated!



Dee

"The Gardenthyme Lady"



Subject: RE: [Herb] milk thistle





In what form are you trying to obtain the milk thistle? I would never

purchase powdered herbs or capsules from a store. There's just no way of

knowing how old the herb is and for how long it's been powdered.



Silybum doesn't extract well as an infusion, so from what I understand, a

fluidextract or STRONG tincture is the best way to go. Or you could go with

a standardized extract (70-80% silymarin).



Kerry



---





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Michael Moore's MM recommends a tincture in the ratio of 1:3, 70%.



Kerry



-----Original Message-----

From: herb-admin@lists.ibiblio.org



Okay, so what your saying is to use a tincture of milk thistle?  How would I

make this to reach the maximum level of liver protection?





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From: "Sarah Head" <sarah@headology.co.uk>

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My milk thistles, planted from seed this spring are just forming seed

heads.Karen Vaughan recommended grinding the seeds on to your morning

cereals. I am also going to try tincturing the seeds as well. Should I grind

them first before adding the vodka?



Sarah





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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] milk thistle

Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia

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"GardenThyme Lady" <dblan@netusa1.net> wrote to <herb@lists.ibiblio.org>:



> I'm looking for a good source for milk thistle.  I understand it's not

> something that can be wildcrafted because it's hard to get the proper dosage

> necessary for helping liver function.  



?? Where have you heard that? Any amount of freshly ground milk thistle seed

will help your liver.



> The health food store sells 60 caps

> of 200 mg for $15.00.  I have no idea if that is a good price.  GNC has

> smaller 30 cap containers for $9.00.  No larger size was available.

> thanks,



It's pretty easy to grow it yourself. It has only survived the winter once, in

my garden, but it usually flowers in the first year, if sown early enough.



Grab the seeds and crunch them up. Put into capsules (I prefer vegecaps) or make

into tincture; or put whole seeds into your peppermill and use in your food.



Most of the silymarin is in the inner coat of the seed. There's some in the

leaf, too, so use scissors to get rid of the spines and put'em into your salad.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

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From dblan@netusa1.net Sun Aug 18 22:43:46 2002

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From: "GardenThyme Lady" <dblan@netusa1.net>

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Subject: RE: [Herb] milk thistle

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Great!  That is good news, I always prefer  using fresh wild crafted herbs

rather than store bought.  Thanks to all!

Dee

"The Gardenthyme Lady"



Grab the seeds and crunch them up. Put into capsules (I prefer vegecaps) or

make

into tincture; or put whole seeds into your peppermill and use in your food.



Most of the silymarin is in the inner coat of the seed. There's some in the

leaf, too, so use scissors to get rid of the spines and put'em into your

salad.



Henriette





Enthusiasm is the element of success in everything. It is

the light that leads and the strength that lifts people on

and up in the great struggles of scientific pursuits and of

professional labor. It robs endurance of difficulty, and

makes pleasure of duty.

--Bishop Doane







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From lakshmi@kingcon.com Sun Aug 18 17:17:48 2002

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I would suggest using the whole seed, grinding it in a coffee grinder or

vita mix, and making a tea and consuming the powder- or spinkling it on

food. Grind it fresh every time, or at most every few days.

I have heard from other herbalists that this is an effective way to use the

herb- and I have used it myself this way- I like the "tea" method best.



Michelle



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To my surprise, a local nursery is offering echinacea for sale. Now that 

it's been in my garden and flowering, I see that it is a variety of 

echinacea I'm not familiar with: e. paradoxa, with bright yellow petals. Is 

this variety as medicinal as the angustafolia, purpurea, or even pallida? I 

would love to make a fresh tincture.



Miriam



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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

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Subject: Re: [Herb] echinacea paradoxa

Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia

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Miriam Kresh <miriam_k@netvision.net.il> wrote to herb@lists.ibiblio.org:



> To my surprise, a local nursery is offering echinacea for sale. Now that 

> it's been in my garden and flowering, I see that it is a variety of 

> echinacea I'm not familiar with: e. paradoxa, with bright yellow petals. Is 

> this variety as medicinal as the angustafolia, purpurea, or even pallida? I 

> would love to make a fresh tincture.



Aye.



Mine didn't survive, a few years ago. Neither did the E. pallida. Oh well, E.

purpurea is plenty pretty.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

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From miriam_k@netvision.net.il Mon Aug 19 18:29:45 2002

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From: Miriam Kresh <miriam_k@netvision.net.il>

Subject: Re: [Herb] echinacea paradoxa

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Echinacea has always done OK here in the north of Israel, where there are 

short, but very cold winters, and *very* hot summers. As long as I water it 

faithfully, it rewards me. I always imagined that the climate here is 

similar to that of the Appalachians (could be my romantic notion and not 

true at all), and that's why the echinacea does well. Yes, and E. pururea 

seems to be almost indestructible.



Miriam

At 21:13 18/08/02 +0300, you wrote:



>Mine didn't survive, a few years ago. Neither did the E. pallida. Oh well, E.

>purpurea is plenty pretty.

>

>Henriette

>

>-





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Hi there,



Yes, Echinacea paradoxa has been shown to have active constituents in both the 

roots and the flowers. Although, it does not contain as many active chemicals, 

or concentrations equal to those found in E. purpurea or E. pallida. It is 

contained to the Ozarks region but is a close cousin to the other widely used 

medicinal Echinaceas.



Melissa





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From miriam_k@netvision.net.il Mon Aug 19 18:25:43 2002

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From: Miriam Kresh <miriam_k@netvision.net.il>

Subject: Re: [Herb] Echinacea paradoxa

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Thank you for the reply, Melissa. I'm wondering how this variety of 

echinacea wound up here in Israel...



Miriam



At 15:56 18/08/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Hi there,

>

>Yes, Echinacea paradoxa has been shown to have active constituents in both 

>the

>roots and the flowers. Although, it does not contain as many active 

>chemicals,

>or concentrations equal to those found in E. purpurea or E. pallida. It is

>contained to the Ozarks region but is a close cousin to the other widely used

>medicinal Echinaceas.

>

>Melissa





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 >I'm wondering how this variety of echinacea wound up here in Israel...



Good luck growing it.  I'd be interested in hearing how it does as my three

attempts have failed although I've had success with E. pallida, E.

tennessiensis, and E. angustifolia.



Pamela

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From hkobayas@students.uiuc.edu Wed Aug 21 00:40:16 2002

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Bauer's group have done many studies on phytochemical analysis of Echinacea 

species. It appears most species if not all contain alkylamides and/or caffeic 

acid derivatives. I thought they have done phytochemical analysis of E. 

tennessiensis, but couldn't find it at this time. Here are some records I 

found.



Dietz B. and Bauer R. 2001. The constituents of Echinacea atrorubens roots and 

aerial parts. Pharmaceutical Biology



Abstract:

Eleven isobutylamides have been isolated from the n-hexane extract of the 

dried roots of Echinacea atrorubens Nutt. Undeca-2E,4E-dien-8,10-diynoic acid 

isobutylamide represents a new compound. The lipophilic profiles of 

constituents of the roots and the herb were similar as the alkamide profiles 

previously found in E. purpurea and E. angustifolia. The polar components of 

E. atrorubens roots and the aerial parts, however, seem to be very different 

from E. purpurea and E. angustifolia, since neither cichoric acid nor 

echinacoside could be found.



Pietta P., Mauri P. and  Bauer R. 1998. MEKC analysis of different Echinacea 

species. Planta Medica.



Abstract:

The distribution pattern of caffeic acid derivatives in Echinacea species is 

complex, and problems with the identity of each drug have been recognized. 

Micellar electrokinetic chromatography (MEKC) has been applied to define the 

fingerprints of Echinacea angustifolia, Echinacea pallida, and Echinacea 

purpurea, and their mixtures. The results obtained evidence that MEKC is a 

valuable tool for the characterization of these drugs.



BAUER R. and FOSTER S. 1991. Analysis of alkamides and caffeic acid 

derivatives from Echinacea simulata and Echinacea paradoxa roots. Planta 

Medica.



Abstract: 

The constituents of the roots of Echinacea simulata and E. paradoxa were 

examined by HPLC. The major lipophilic and hydrophilic compounds could be 

identified. E. paradoxa contained several ketoalkenynes and proved to have 

almost identical constituents as E. pallida. E. simulata contained alkamides 

as found in E. angustifolia and in addition ketoalkenynes as in E. pallida. 

Echinacoside was found in both species.



Hideka



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Subject: [Herb] Berberine

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Dear List



I understand the major active ingredient in Goldenseal

is Berberine. I understand that Gold Thread has similar

levels of Berberine content in it. Given that

Goldenseal is on the endangered list, why not use other

sources of berberine, such as Gold Thread, to take the

pressure off Goldenseal???



Am I missing something here? 



How does Gold Thread compare to Goldenseal as a

mediinal herb? For what purposes is Gold Thread

superior, and for what purposes is it inferior to

Goldenseal?



Kindest regards,



Kevin Chisholm

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Subject: Re: [Herb] Berberine

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  > I understand the major active ingredient in Goldenseal

> is Berberine. I understand that Gold Thread has similar

> levels of Berberine content in it.

unless you were rather ill you could also use phellodendron, which has much

less berberine but is also much cheaper.



andrew





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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Berberine

Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia

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Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm@ca.inter.net> wrote to herb@lists.ibiblio.org:



> I understand the major active ingredient in Goldenseal is Berberine. 



Yes, goldenseal contains lots of berberine. Yes, you can substitute most any

other berberine-containing plant for goldenseal.



Especially since goldenseal is so expensive that you're rather too likely to get

Oregon grape anyway.



> I understand that Gold Thread has similar

> levels of Berberine content in it. Given that

> Goldenseal is on the endangered list, why not use other

> sources of berberine, such as Gold Thread, to take the

> pressure off Goldenseal???



Use goldthread (Coptis) to take the pressure off Hydrastis and you'll need

something else to take the pressure of Coptis. Smarter not to go there at all:

use Oregon grape (Mahonia) as a substitute for Hydrastis instead.



A better question would actually be "why use goldenseal in anti-flu formulas in

the first place"? The Ech-goldenseal combo is, from herbalist point of view,

mindbogglingly stupid. It's a true testimony to the power of a fixed idea in the

great unwashed masses.



> How does Gold Thread compare to Goldenseal as a

> mediinal herb? For what purposes is Gold Thread

> superior, and for what purposes is it inferior to

> Goldenseal?



Real goldenseal also contains a rather fragile alkaloid, hydrastine, which is

missing from other berberine-containing plants. Real goldenseal differs from the

rest in its efficacy for deep-seated infections; but it _is_ problematic in

simple infections. If you want to use real goldenseal grow your own... or use

other herbs.

And be careful of your precious goldenseal if you actually managed to get some.

For instance, don't add goldenseal tincture to formulas without also adding some

glycerine to stop the hydrastine from precipitating out. Tincture it right - 1:5

70% for dried root, no less, no more.



Other berberine-containing herbs now. I use simply loads of Oregon grape to heat

a cool liver. It's one of the main herbs I use for that, and lots of people do

have a cool liver. That reminds me - I have to order more Mahonia. I'd order

Berberis instead (that's European), but the quality of that hasn't been

satisfactory.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed

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Subject: Re: [Herb] Berberine

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Henriette Kress wrote:



> A better question would actually be "why use goldenseal in anti-flu formulas in

> the first place"? The Ech-goldenseal combo is, from herbalist point of view,

> mindbogglingly stupid. It's a true testimony to the power of a fixed idea in the

> great unwashed masses.



I have heard this, but don't really understand why.  Can you explain a bit?



> Real goldenseal also contains a rather fragile alkaloid, hydrastine, which is

> missing from other berberine-containing plants. Real goldenseal differs from the

> rest in its efficacy for deep-seated infections; but it _is_ problematic in

> simple infections.



How does it work in deep-seated infections?  I have heard others say it's best used

topically for mucous membrane infections.



> If you want to use real goldenseal grow your own... or use

> other herbs.

> And be careful of your precious goldenseal if you actually managed to get some.

> For instance, don't add goldenseal tincture to formulas without also adding some

> glycerine to stop the hydrastine from precipitating out. Tincture it right - 1:5

> 70% for dried root, no less, no more.



Doesn't happen to extract in glycerine alone, does it?  How long will the hydrastine

last when tintured according to your directions?



> Other berberine-containing herbs now. I use simply loads of Oregon grape to heat

> a cool liver. It's one of the main herbs I use for that, and lots of people do

> have a cool liver. That reminds me - I have to order more Mahonia. I'd order

> Berberis instead (that's European), but the quality of that hasn't been

> satisfactory.



Barberry is invasive around here.  What's the best way to harvest and use it?  What

are the best uses of berberine-containing herbs?



Thanks,

May

--

May all the world envelop me that I might know the conversation of wind or the

willful flight of a bee, that I might become the song of earth and turn again to

greening.  ---Egyptian Book of the Dead





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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Berberine

Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia

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May Terry <mterry@snet.net> wrote to herb@lists.ibiblio.org:

> Henriette Kress wrote:

> 

> > A better question would actually be "why use goldenseal in anti-flu formulas in

> > the first place"? The Ech-goldenseal combo is, from herbalist point of view,

> > mindbogglingly stupid. It's a true testimony to the power of a fixed idea in the

> > great unwashed masses.

> 

> I have heard this, but don't really understand why.  Can you explain a bit?



Unless you procect it (5-10 % glycerine should do the trick), the hydrastine

precipitates out, leaving berberine fractions + whatever else is in the plant. 

You'll find that pretty much all except hydrastine is found in other

berberine-containing plants. So why pay gold and diamonds for something that can

be had far cheaper? Something that is _not_ endangered in the wild, and growing

more so by the month, _because_ of this mindless demand?



Also, berberine-containing plants don't do much for your flu; they heat your

liver. If you already have a hot liver, whoops.



Here's the energetics:



                  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19

Echinacea ang.   -1 +1 +2 -1 -1  _  _ +1 +1 +2 +2 +2 -1 -1  _ +1  _  _  _

Echinacea purp.  -1  _ +2 -2  _  _  _ +1 +1 +2 +2 +1  _  _  _  _  _  _  _

Hydrastis        +2 +2 +2  _ +1 -1  _ +1  _  _ +1 +2 -1 +1  _ +1  _  _  _

Mahonia          +2 +1 +2  _ -1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +2 +1 +1  _  _  _ -1  _ +1



1 - upper gastro-intestinal (GI)

2 - lower GI

3 - hepatic (= liver)

4 - renal (= kidneys)

5 - lower urinary tract (UT)

6 - reproductive

7 - respiratory (= lungs)

8 - cardiovascular

9 - lymph system 

10- immunologic

11 - skin

12 - mucosa

13 - musculo-skeletal

14 - central nervous

15 - sympathetic

16 - parasympathetic

17 - adrenalin stress

18 - anabolic stress

19 - thyroid stress



There is nothing under immunologic for Hydrastis. It does NOT help your immune

system. You don't need Hydrastis for your common flu.



The problem with Echinacea is also, it kills stuff, but leaves it lying about.

You need something heating with Ech, something like cayenne, or ginger, or

horseradish.



Above energetics are part of the Herbal energetics booklet, online on Michael

Moore's site: http://www.swsbm.com/ - go for the manuals. I'd suggest all here

who haven't yet downloaded the acrobat file (1 MB) go get it now, and _read_ it.

Michael pretty practical in his approach, and my clients can attest that this

_works_. (Of course, I've been to the SWSBM, so I've sort of bathed in herbal

energetics for half a year. Wheee, lovely.)



> How does it work in deep-seated infections?  I have heard others say it's best used

> topically for mucous membrane infections.



I'd see external use as a waste of good herb. Tincture it and use the tincture

for things like recurrent bladder infections, if your usual regime of lower UT +

liver + immune stimulant herbs haven't shifted the infection.



But use it ONLY if you have grown it yourself or can get it from somebody who

grows it.



> Doesn't happen to extract in glycerine alone, does it?  



No.



> How long will the hydrastine last when tintured according to your directions?



Dunno. Hydrastis tincture is stable for a few years.



> Barberry is invasive around here.  What's the best way to harvest and use it?  What

> are the best uses of berberine-containing herbs?



In washes: dig the root when flash floods have exposed it, thus making it easy

to dig. In woods and such, dig the root. If you find that the stems of the

species in your neck of the woods have yellow bark when cut, or that the leaves

have yellow center veins when broken, rejoice, you don't have to dig; you only

have to peel branches, or pick spiny leaf.

Slice root into 5 mm bits, tincture fresh, or dry and use, chopped up even

further, in teas.



Henriette



-- 

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"Grab the seeds and crunch them up" indeed. The seeds are encapsulated in

the jaws of hell. The spikes on the seed pod can puncture titanium. Once you

get them off you face a bunch of white stuff that hides the seed. It's a

lovely plant that keeps its green and white foliage throughout my zone 7

winter. In spring it's loaded with purple balls. You pay for this at

harvest. I'll keep the plants for their showiness but must retreat to store

bought tincture to keep my liver sound. What good is a great liver if I

bleed to death harvesting the seed?





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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Milk Thistle Easy!

Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia

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cal <clawso@comcast.net> wrote to herb@lists.ibiblio.org:



> "Grab the seeds and crunch them up" indeed. The seeds are encapsulated in

> the jaws of hell. The spikes on the seed pod can puncture titanium. Once you

> get them off you face a bunch of white stuff that hides the seed. It's a

> lovely plant that keeps its green and white foliage throughout my zone 7

> winter. In spring it's loaded with purple balls. You pay for this at

> harvest. I'll keep the plants for their showiness but must retreat to store

> bought tincture to keep my liver sound. What good is a great liver if I

> bleed to death harvesting the seed?



I see you haven't used leather gloves, a stick, and a bucket.



With gloved hand bend seedhead over bucket, with stick in other hand stir inside

seedhead. Watch seeds drop into bucket.



Piece of cake.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

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>What good is a great liver if I

>bleed to death harvesting the seed?





Me, too. I grew beautiful milk thistle plants but just gave up on trying to 

harvest the seeds. Anyone out there with some suggestions. Veronica





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From multiflorum@hotmail.com Tue Aug 20 17:17:14 2002

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From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum@hotmail.com>

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Subject: Re: [Herb] Milk Thistle Easy/Burdock Seed

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>What good is a great liver if I bleed to death harvesting the seed?



I had quite an ordeal trying to harvest Burdock seeds last year.

Between all the invisible slivers I got (millions, I'm sure - felt like

I'd been picking apart fiberglass insulation) breaking apart the burrs

and the little critters inside the seeds, I gave up and simply threw

the coagulated cluster of burrs into a field for later harvest of

roots.  I even tried using a coffee grinder and then a food processor,

but the whole mass of burrs just stuck together and spun around like an

herbal carnival ride.  By the time I got around to using gloves (which

ended up looking like they were made from porcupine hide), my patience

was at its end and I had to shift my focus from processing the burrs to

taking care of my afflicted hands.



Does anybody have an easy method for seperating the seeds from the

burrs?  Or is this one of those instances (like gathering Elder

flowers, which takes forever and dries down to absolutely nothing)

where its worth buying it from another herbalist with greater tenacity?





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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Milk Thistle Easy/Burdock Seed

Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia

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"jim mcdonald" <multiflorum@hotmail.com> wrote to herb@lists.ibiblio.org:



> I had quite an ordeal trying to harvest Burdock seeds last year.



I've given up on gathering burdock seed. Sure, you can get a fair amount of seed

(same method as for milk thistle: bend seedhead over bucket, stir with stick),

but they contain far too much far too lively proteins.



I've given up on burdock root, too - it likes stony ground too much, and the

longest good-sized root I've actually gotten up was a measly 20 cm long... about

as thick where it had broken off as at the top, and still going on down.



So, jim, you might be happy to learn that the leaf works as well. Sure, it's

extremely diuretic... so tell your clients that they shouldn't drink the tea

before bedtime. Voila, no more excess wriggly protein, and no more blisters from

the digging.



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed

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From multiflorum@hotmail.com Wed Aug 21 00:20:51 2002

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From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum@hotmail.com>

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Milk Thistle Easy/Burdock Seed

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>From: Henriette Kress

>

>I've given up on burdock root, too - it likes stony ground too much, and 

>the longest good-sized root I've actually gotten up was a measly 20 cm 

>long... about as thick where it had broken off as at the top, and still 

>going on down.



Burdock was the first root I ever dug, back when I was in college.  I

saw it growing in the botanical gardens and said, "wow, that's growing

next to the barn... I should see what its good for and dig some up."  I

looked it up in one of my books and it seemed to be "good for

everything", so I went out back with a 5 inch hand trowel.

(I'll leave a little bit of space for the knowing laughter)...









This thing was like, over 2 1/2 feet.  I kept digging and digging, till

I had a hole that was easily over 3 feet in diameter and two feet

deep.  When I finally was able to pull it out, I made some tea with it

and waited to see if I could tell it was "doing something".  ... And

somehow that experience encouraged me to continue my studies.



Go figure.



_________________________________________________________________

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From sekhmet@netins.net Wed Aug 21 01:22:53 2002

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From: "Christina Vanspoor" <sekhmet@netins.net>

Subject: Re: [Herb] Milk Thistle Easy/Burdock Seed

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Hi Jim:



This stuff grows so profusely outside my doorstep it's 

frightening.  It may end up eating my house someday!  



I have had no problem harvesting seperating the burrs from 

the seeds. I believe I picked up the tip form one of Susun 

Weed's books on using a rolling pin. The external burr 

"pod" would stick together and the seeds would fall out 

without sticking to my fingers and filling skin with those 

nasty splinter-like spines.  At the end of it, we ended up 

having plenty of burdock seed. 



Cheers!



Christina Paul

sekhmet@netins.net







On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:17:14 -0400

  "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>What good is a great liver if I bleed to death harvesting 

>>the seed?

>

>I had quite an ordeal trying to harvest Burdock seeds 

>last year.

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From hetta@saunalahti.fi Wed Aug 21 09:04:53 2002

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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia

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Today there were three klez viruses in the attachment nets for this list. There

haven't been any for a while, so I expect one of you has been infected.



Here's a few helpful links:



http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.klez.removal.tool.html



http://www.grisoft.com/html/us_index.htm?session=17d3297d7ad4bb354fe7051f3bbf7849

(Do note that AVG anti-virus protection is _free_. Anybody who uses Outlook

without an antivirus program should be OFF the net.)



http://antivirus.about.com/library/blklez.htm



And upgrade outlook. And use Mozilla (lovely!) instead of internet exploder. 



http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/downloads/critical/q290108/default.asp



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed

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From dblan@netusa1.net Thu Aug 22 05:26:27 2002

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From: "GardenThyme Lady" <dblan@netusa1.net>

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Norton's has caught  two (zlenz virus) in the past two days from my email.

Thank goodness for Norton's.  I had a virus once that cleaned my clock!  I

quickly wised up and coughed up the bucks for the protection!

Okay, herbally, I've decided to call this my first blackberry summer! We

planted a thorn less type over 3 years ago, and  I have picked blackberries

since the middle of June this year  and even though they are slowing down,

there are still plenty every day!  We had a particularly cold snap May 10-14

and it happened I was a vendor at a local herb festival (quite nice if

anyone is in Terre Haute, IN the Sat. before Mother's day).  Anyway, this

sweet little old lady informed me it was a black berry winter cold, and we

usually have one while the blackberries are blooming.  She was so right!

I've never seen such a crop of blackberries.  I've made cobblers,  36 jars

of jelly, jam, over a gallon of wine and currently have 8 qts of juice

idling in the fridge until I get the chance to transform it!  All this from

10 plants!!! I will from now on pay attention to the blackberry winter!  The

grapes are ripening up too...

Cutting and drying herbs, making use of the flood of tomatoes and peppers as

well, (salsa!) at a feverish pitch, how quickly summer flies by....

Dee

"The Gardenthyme Lady"



---





Today there were three klez viruses in the attachment nets for this list.

There

haven't been any for a while, so I expect one of you has been infected.







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From sumar@mail.ifas.ufl.edu Thu Aug 22 17:12:25 2002

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Subject: [Herb] Berberine-containing plants

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Thanks ever so much for the very useful energetic comparison, Henriette! I

have read MM's energetics charts, but they just don't seem to sink in for

me until I am actually working with the plants (duh) or in a context like

this where we are comparing a few different plants and their qualities. I

don't use goldenseal anyway, but I am interested in the

berberine-containing plants, and Mahonia just grows SO WELL here in North

Florida.



I guess I never really recognized that the berberines warm the liver. I was

always told that these plants were "cooling bitters" or "cold bitters." For

example, M Tierra says that the Mahonia/Turmeric combination is a "western"

equivalent of Bupleurum, which is considered to be very cooling/clearing to

the liver in TCM terms. I'm struggling to understand. Can you shed some

light on this? Does this have to do with the different understandings of

Eastern vs. Western energetics? I'm really interested in understanding the

western energetic approach, because it seems to make much more sense to me

in my cultural context, but the TCM stuff keeps popping up everywhere.

--Susan in Florida, USA



>Henriette wrote:

>Here's the energetics:

>

>                  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19

>Echinacea ang.   -1 +1 +2 -1 -1  _  _ +1 +1 +2 +2 +2 -1 -1  _ +1  _  _  _

>Echinacea purp.  -1  _ +2 -2  _  _  _ +1 +1 +2 +2 +1  _  _  _  _  _  _  _

>Hydrastis        +2 +2 +2  _ +1 -1  _ +1  _  _ +1 +2 -1 +1  _ +1  _  _  _

>Mahonia          +2 +1 +2  _ -1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +2 +1 +1  _  _  _ -1  _ +1

>

>1 - upper gastro-intestinal (GI)

>2 - lower GI

>3 - hepatic (= liver)

>4 - renal (= kidneys)

>5 - lower urinary tract (UT)

>6 - reproductive

>7 - respiratory (= lungs)

>8 - cardiovascular

>9 - lymph system 

>10- immunologic

>11 - skin

>12 - mucosa

>13 - musculo-skeletal

>14 - central nervous

>15 - sympathetic

>16 - parasympathetic

>17 - adrenalin stress

>18 - anabolic stress

>19 - thyroid stress



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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

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Subject: Re: [Herb] Berberine-containing plants

Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia

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Susan Marynowski <sumar@mail.ifas.ufl.edu> wrote to herb@lists.ibiblio.org:



> I guess I never really recognized that the berberines warm the liver. I was



I don't know about coptis and the others, but berberis and mahonia do heat the

cool liver.



> I'm really interested in understanding the

> western energetic approach, because it seems to make much more sense to me

> in my cultural context, but the TCM stuff keeps popping up everywhere.



You could start by reading the liver bits in the herbal energetics .pdf -file -

Michael Moore is quite succinct on hot and cold liver, per western energetics.



If you also do TCM energetics you'll be very confused. Stick to one of them. 



Note, I have no idea what berberis or mahonia do in terms of liver yang/yin

hot/cold rising/sinking whatever, according to TCM.



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

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Subject: [Herb] Burdock Seed?

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Hello All -



This is my first experience with live Burdock.  At what point do you harvest

the seed?  After the plant has become dormant for the winter?  What is all

of this talk about "little critters" in the burdock seed?  The plants do not

seem to have any insect invaders on them - at least not on the leaves or

outside of the burr.



I have read that the seed is "Strong Medicine."  Does that mean better than

the root or similar to the root in it's actions?



j





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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Burdock Seed?

Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia

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"J Mission" <jmission@indy.net> wrote to <herb@lists.ibiblio.org>:



> This is my first experience with live Burdock.  At what point do you harvest

> the seed?  



After it flowers, and the seedstalks turn brown.



> After the plant has become dormant for the winter?  



It's a biennial, which means, once it's seeded it's dead, Jim.



> What is all

> of this talk about "little critters" in the burdock seed?  The plants do not

> seem to have any insect invaders on them - at least not on the leaves or

> outside of the burr.



At least one kind of little critter is a small brown-spotted fly. You won't see

the insect invaders; the female only needs to sit there for a short while,

laying eggs, and the larvae are small enough to fit inside the seeds. Or inside

two or three of them, but I'm not sure that's the same fly.



> I have read that the seed is "Strong Medicine."  Does that mean better than

> the root or similar to the root in it's actions?



Where have you read that?



In my experience (though I freely admit, I've very rarely bothered to pick

enough seed to have, well, enough), root and seed are quite similar; leaf is

weaker and far more diuretic, but leaf is _very_ much easier to pick.



The root of the first year plant, when dug in autumn and dried, is just

delicious. You dig'em, you chop'em up, you dry'em, and after that day or two of

work you eat the lot in half an hour. Yum.



The leaf is rather bitter. Both cool a hot liver. 

And burdock leaf is better than root in a salve, for things like eczema and

psoriasis, because constituents in the leaf are 



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

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Subject: Re: [Herb] Burdock seed -TAKE TWO-

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Oops... didn't mean to send that first one...



I use Burdock ROOT in blends as a long term nourishing

tonic and to "balance the organ systems"... I feel

Burdock, and most other alteratives, have the ability to

restore the coordination of organs and systems; kind of

like tuning up a guitar so it resonates as a whole.  Of

course, you need to use it where indicated, but I think

Burdock is probably one of the most versatile;

the "archetypal alterative".



I use Burdock SEED in acute cases, where some condition

is flaring up, like eczema, psoriasis, UTIs, or when

Hepatitis goes from bad to worse.  It combines excellent

with Echinacea for colds; they both have that diffusive

tingly quality and taste good together, too.  John Sauer,

an old colonial herbalist, said that a quint (1/8 oz) of

burdock seeds taken monthly will prevent kidney stones.



He also recommends going horseback riding or on a

carriage ride in conjunction with drinking teas,

presumably the jostling involved provides the aggitation

to the urine that helps to dissolve the gravel better.

At least that's what I think he means.  I've told people

to take up cross country jogging, if they don't have

access to a carriage and a muddy, potholed road.



I've only harvested Burdock seed myself in small

quantities (for the aforementioned reasons - though I'll

be going out to buy a rolling pin this fall), but I

ordered a pound of seeds from a chinese herbalist

last spring to put up a batch of extract, which I DIDN'T  do because the 

seeds had the vitality of a pile of 6 year

old grass clippings.



Buyer beware.







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Subject: [Herb] RE: Burdock seed

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> I have read that the seed is "Strong Medicine."  Does that mean better

than

> the root or similar to the root in it's actions?



Where have you read that?



I'm reading about 5 different Native American herb books and it came from

one of them.  But those were the only 2 words associated with the seed.



The seed heads are just now turning brown, so I am digging up my rolling

pin.  I guess I'll try to dry the burrs a little before I begin to wack

them.



Can I assume that the root can be used now also (at least for tincture or

tea)?



j





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From mwherbs@dshome.net Sun Aug 25 21:41:44 2002

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From: Sharon Hodges-Rust <mwherbs@dshome.net>

Subject: [Herb] RE: Burdock seed

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some thoughts on digging the root up, I first came a cross a digging 

stick living in the northwest, the native folks from Celilo and 

Lapway use them to dig up camus, onions, lomatium and other roots. 

Traditionally it was a fire hardened piece of wood. When the traders 

came they brought iron ones, well I have seen them and I guess I 

could have a blacksmith make one but instead I just used what I could 

find that was close to it so have used thin crowbars and when we dug 

out our water line we used an old car drive line. The point goes in 

and then you pivot. it losens the soil and for long straight roots it 

works well because you can go in around it and then just pull it out 

without making a 3x3 foot hole.

Sharon in Tucson

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From hetta@saunalahti.fi Mon Aug 26 07:09:13 2002

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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] RE: Burdock seed

Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia

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"J Mission" <jmission@indy.net> wrote to <herb@lists.ibiblio.org>:



> The seed heads are just now turning brown, so I am digging up my rolling

> pin.  I guess I'll try to dry the burrs a little before I begin to wack

> them.

> 

> Can I assume that the root can be used now also (at least for tincture or

> tea)?



Yes, but not the roots under seedstalks. They're dead, dead, dead.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

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From cmaria@triton.net Mon Aug 26 20:43:39 2002

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I am fortunate enough to have plenty of burdock around my place.

The seed heads I gather, wearing old fine leather gloves, gathering them

into a brown shopping bag and leave the bag hanging in my furnace room.*



Comes spring many seeds have separated from the seed heads and I give

them another shake and rattle in the bag, than winnow it through a large

mesh sieve.

Works for me.

My teacher Keewaydenoqua told me of a man that came to her for healing,

he was diagnosed with kidney failure, needed a transplant and asked her

for one year of life, so he could settle his affairs. It was Burdock

that gave him that one year and seeds were plantes all over the island

in his memory, my seeds come from there.

C-M



* The furnace room in my  house has proven to be the best room to dry

plants, dark, warm and I have never had anything mildew in there.



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From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum@hotmail.com>

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Subject: Re: [Herb] Fresh/Dried Herbs

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I am, admittedly, a rather obsessive "fresh tincture herbalist", and

probably am borderline anal when it comes to buying dried herbs... I

want to be able to talk to the person who collected the plants, know as

close as possible when they were gathered, and where.  Most of what I

use I collect myself, though occasionally I trade or purchase plants

unavailable in my area, like Kava Kava or Osha, though even then I try

to get the freshly dug roots shipped to me to tincture fresh. Sometimes

though, dry is all you can get a hold of, and I'm interested in other

people's opinions on two issues:



1.) Which herbs lose so much of their virtues (as to be nearly inert)

    when dried they should -only- be used fresh?



I'd offer both Cleavers and Chickweed to this catagory, which I think

make dreadful dry tinctures.



There are some herbs I've heard are bad to dry that I've had plenty

of success using, Skullcap being notable.  While the fresh tincture

is certainly more potent, the dried still provides a noticable effect.



2.) Which herbs are actually best prepared using the -dried- plant?



Michael Moore offers his opinions on which herbs he thinks should be

tinctured dry at http://www.swsbm.com/ManualsMM/DryTinct.txt, so we

can probably skip over mentioning these, unless someone would like to

make a dispute (in a constructive manner, of course...)



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From sarah@headology.co.uk Tue Aug 27 00:01:37 2002

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From: "Sarah Head" <sarah@headology.co.uk>

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Subject: RE: [Herb] Fresh/Dried Herbs

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I've just strained my first batch of fresh motherwort tincture and found the

taste slightly bitter but not totally unpalatable..a little like dandelion

leaves in salad. I've dried some motherwort to use in teas and am intending

to tincture the rest of the crop fresh tomorrow. I seem to remember someone

suggesting that rum was a good medium for motherwort. Does anyone have any

preferences?



Sarah





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Subject: RE: [Herb] Fresh/Dried Herbs

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The only one I know to add to your list is Hypericum. Although I have had

success tincturing dry, it's impossible to get a good oil with dry

Hypericum.



Kerry



-----Original Message-----





1.) Which herbs lose so much of their virtues (as to be nearly inert)

    when dried they should -only- be used fresh?



I'd offer both Cleavers and Chickweed to this catagory, which I think

make dreadful dry tinctures.





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I have heard that mullein oil for ear pain/infection should only be made with

fresh flowers.



Kerry & Jack wrote:



> The only one I know to add to your list is Hypericum. Although I have had

> success tincturing dry, it's impossible to get a good oil with dry

> Hypericum.

>

> -----Original Message-----

>

> 1.) Which herbs lose so much of their virtues (as to be nearly inert)

>     when dried they should -only- be used fresh?

>

> I'd offer both Cleavers and Chickweed to this catagory, which I think

> make dreadful dry tinctures.



--

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and

evil people doing evil things.  But for good people to do evil things, that

takes religion.  ---Steven Weinberg





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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Fresh/Dried Herbs

Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia

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May Terry <mterry@snet.net> wrote to herb@lists.ibiblio.org:



> I have heard that mullein oil for ear pain/infection should only be made with

> fresh flowers.



Wrong.



You can only let the flowers dissolve into oil if they're fresh, but if you pick

the flowerstalks with everything still attached, and dry that, you get a

_lovely_ ear oil, anti-inflammatory oil, anti-rheumatic oil from those.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

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Henriette Kress wrote:



> May Terry <mterry@snet.net> wrote to herb@lists.ibiblio.org:

>

> > I have heard that mullein oil for ear pain/infection should only be made with

> > fresh flowers.

>

> Wrong.

>

> You can only let the flowers dissolve into oil if they're fresh, but if you pick

> the flowerstalks with everything still attached, and dry that, you get a

> _lovely_ ear oil, anti-inflammatory oil, anti-rheumatic oil from those.



That's good to know.  Is it true if most of the flowers are still in the bud stage?

The flowers don't all open at once.



Thanks,

May

--

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil

people doing evil things.  But for good people to do evil things, that takes

religion.  ---Steven Weinberg





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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Fresh/Dried Herbs

Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia

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May Terry <mterry@snet.net> wrote to herb@lists.ibiblio.org:

> Henriette Kress wrote:

> > May Terry <mterry@snet.net> wrote to herb@lists.ibiblio.org:



[mullein oil]



> That's good to know.  Is it true if most of the flowers are still in the bud stage?

> The flowers don't all open at once.



Full flower, mostly buds, mostly seeds, as long as there's some yellow (or

white) showing, you get a good infused oil from the dried flowerstalk. 



If it's a thick stalk (like Verbascum thapsus), pull everything off once it's

dry (use gloves or you'll have lots of splinters in your hands).



If it's a thin one (like Verbascum nigrum), just cut the dried flowerstalk into

1" bits.



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed

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From leppihalme@quartal.com Tue Aug 27 08:37:03 2002

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Subject: RE: [Herb] Fresh/Dried Herbs

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jim mcdonald:

> 1.) Which herbs lose so much of their virtues (as to be

> nearly inert) when dried they should -only- be used fresh?



Lemon balm (Melissa officinalis).



> 2.) Which herbs are actually best prepared using

> the -dried- plant?



Any and all, if you're making oils, with the possible exception of Calendula petals. If we're talking only about tinctures, I don't know.



Miikkali

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From carls197@pilot.msu.edu Tue Aug 27 15:38:17 2002

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To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

From: Michelle Carlson <carls197@pilot.msu.edu>

Subject: RE: [Herb] Fresh/Dried Herbs

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At 08:37 AM 08/27/2002 +0300, you wrote:

>jim mcdonald:

> > 1.) Which herbs lose so much of their virtues (as to be

> > nearly inert) when dried they should -only- be used fresh?

>

>Lemon balm (Melissa officinalis).



I have a ton of lemon balm and would be interested in making some infused 

oils from it. What are its uses?

Thanks!

Michelle in Michigan







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From jclarke1@mn.rr.com Tue Aug 27 15:46:34 2002

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From: "Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1@mn.rr.com>

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Subject: RE: [Herb] Fresh/Dried Herbs

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IMO, lemon balm would be more suitable as an infusion. It's a great nervine

and soothes upset stomachs. I'm not familiar with its uses as an oil.



Kerry



-----Original Message-----

I have a ton of lemon balm and would be interested in making some infused

oils from it. What are its uses?

Thanks!

Michelle in Michigan





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From mterry@snet.net Tue Aug 27 16:29:06 2002

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Subject: Re: [Herb] Fresh/Dried Herbs

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Michelle Carlson wrote:



> I have a ton of lemon balm and would be interested in making some infused

> oils from it. What are its uses?



I use a very strong tea of lemon balm for oral herpes blisters.  They are

gone in two days with just dabbing it on as frequently as I remember.



I've found that adding a little rubbing alcohol to this 'tea' and

refrigerating it causes it to keep for a few months.  The alcohol helps to

dry out the blisters.



I didn't have any last year (I moved) so I bought melissa tincture and dabbed

it on the sores.  It seemed to work pretty well.



Perhaps you could freeze fresh herb to use in tea.  It's delicious, and helps

with fevers, colds, and viral conditions.  It's also relaxing.  Some might

think this a strange combination, but I like it mixed with chamomile flowers.



May

--

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and

evil people doing evil things.  But for good people to do evil things, that

takes religion.  ---Steven Weinberg





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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

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Subject: Re: [Herb] Fresh/Dried Herbs

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"Leppihalme, Miikkali" <leppihalme@quartal.com> wrote:



> jim mcdonald:

> > 1.) Which herbs lose so much of their virtues (as to be

> > nearly inert) when dried they should -only- be used fresh?

> 

> Lemon balm (Melissa officinalis).



Aye. Use Dracocephalum moldavica or lemon catmint instead of Melissa, in dried

teas.



> > 2.) Which herbs are actually best prepared using

> > the -dried- plant?

> 

> Any and all, if you're making oils, with the possible exception of Calendula petals. If we're talking only about tinctures, I don't know.



No, all and any except for chickweed (juice plant), impatiens (juice plant) and

St. John's wort (doesn't turn red, if dried herb).



For all the rest, I use dried herb.



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

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Michelle:

> I have a ton of lemon balm and would be interested in making 

> some infused oils from it. What are its uses?



I know only about its internal uses. It strengthens the nerves and stomach and relieves muscular spams. And tastes yummy as an infusion (herbal tea).



Miikkali

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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Fresh/Dried Herbs

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"jim mcdonald" <multiflorum@hotmail.com> wrote to herb@lists.ibiblio.org:



> 1.) Which herbs lose so much of their virtues (as to be nearly inert)

>     when dried they should -only- be used fresh?



Capsella, unless you freeze it the minute it's bonedry. Note, Capsella tincture,

too, goes inert fairly fast. Two years, doubtful if it works, three years, throw

it out already.

Avena in milky seed, of course.

And Hypericum goes inert rather too fast, too, when dried.



> I'd offer both Cleavers and Chickweed to this catagory, which I think

> make dreadful dry tinctures.



Chickweed is a juice plant, so there's no reason at all to use it dried. 



Other juice plants would be Impatiens and borage, if you use borage, that is.

And borage tincture, when picked and chopped in full flower, has a lovely

greenish-blue color.



Cleavers, I use dried cleavers in my teas all the time. Works fine. On the

subject of Galiums, I'd like to know if anybody uses Galiums other than G. verum

and G. aparine? G. odoratum is a different can of fish, of course, but there's

so many abundant, ubiquitous Galiums out there, I'd like to use them if at all

possible. The yellow Galium verum has a sweet scent, I pick lots when I see it

in its dry meadows; the clinging G. aparine is certainly male (...) and quite

lovely to pick, too, from its spot as a lush vegetable garden weed. I use both

species for the lymph system, and for urinary tract infections.



> 2.) Which herbs are actually best prepared using the -dried- plant?



I'd add myrrh to Michael's list; it's impossible to get fresh, eh? So you

tincture it dry at 95 %, because it's a resin.



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

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What do you use myrrh tincture for?



Dee

"The Gardenthyme Lady"



-



I'd add myrrh to Michael's list; it's impossible to get fresh, eh? So you

tincture it dry at 95 %, because it's a resin.



Cheers

Henriette



-





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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

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Subject: Re: [Herb] Fresh/Dried Herbs

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"GardenThyme Lady" <dblan@netusa1.net> wrote to <herb@lists.ibiblio.org>:



> What do you use myrrh tincture for?



A good strong immunostimulant with quirks.



Henriette



-- 

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jim mcdonald:

> 1.) Which herbs lose so much of their virtues (as to be

> nearly inert) when dried they should -only- be used fresh?



Leppihalme, Miikkali:

> Lemon balm (Melissa officinalis).



I once had dried lemon balm, it was very weak, practically worthless.  Fresh

jewelweed (Impatiens pallida) is often good against poison ivy dermatitis, but

is dried jewelweed any good for that purpose?  Or what, if anything, is dried

jewelweed good for?  Also, I think nasturtium (Tropaeolum majus) flowers have a

nice spicy flavor in salad, but only fresh, not dried.



jim mcdonald:

> 2.) Which herbs are actually best prepared using

> the -dried- plant?



I read that in some cases, the fresh herb is too strong.  One such case is

buckthorn bark (Rhamnus frangula) and cascara sagrada (Rhamnus purshiana), used

as laxatives after the bark has been dried and aged sufficiently.

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Subject: [Herb] Mugwort Oil

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I've just been harvesting from my second herb garden and last night I made

some fresh double infused mugwort oil from leaves and flowers. It made a

beautiful dark green fragrant oil and I'm wondering what would be the best

use for it. I was thinking about using it as a massage oil perhaps? Any

suggestions?



I'm also intending to make some double infused yarrow and meadowsweet oil.

Again, what do other people use these for?



Many thanks



Sarah





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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

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Subject: Re: [Herb] Mugwort Oil

Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia

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"Sarah Head" <sarah@headology.co.uk> wrote to <herb@lists.ibiblio.org>:



> I've just been harvesting from my second herb garden and last night I made

> some fresh double infused mugwort oil from leaves and flowers. It made a

> beautiful dark green fragrant oil and I'm wondering what would be the best

> use for it. I was thinking about using it as a massage oil perhaps? Any

> suggestions?



Try it for aches and pains; it _is_ related to wormwood:



http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/eclectic/kings/artemisia-absi.html#principal-use

"It is principally used, however, as a warm fomentation for sprains, bruises and

local inflammations. For this purpose it may be steeped in water, or better in

vinegar and water, and applied as hot as can be borne."



Note, mugwort is extremely allergenic. If the plant was in flower, don't use it

at all on people with allergies.



> I'm also intending to make some double infused yarrow and meadowsweet oil.

> Again, what do other people use these for?



Yarrow keeps horseflies away. Note, they still circle, but they don't land.



Meadowsweet is excellent for aches and pains. Add a little cayenne for deeper

pain, or equal parts of mullein for inflammations, or as much calendula for

woundhealing, etc. etc. etc.



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed

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Subject: Re: [Herb] Re: cervical dyplasia -  natural treatments?

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Kathy . . . my wife recently had a pap test with abnormal sqameous cells of unknown origin . . . the MD is not too concerned, but wants to repeat the test in a few months. I recalled this post you made a while back and saved it

because she had a similar problem in the summer of 2001. Interestingly, a second pap a couple of weeks later showed normal results.



We thought it might be a good idea to follow your regiment, but we were wondering if you have any specifics on proportions of the ingredients. We picked up the calendula in herb form from the local health food store and can

probably get the rest there, too.



If it's not asking too much, do you have any details?



Thank you in advance . . .





Rick Kent



Kathy Bensinger wrote:



> suppositories made with multiple anti-viral, antineoplastic herbs.  They are easy to make from powdered herbs and cocoa butter.  The one I make includes myrrh, Pau D'arco, calendula, barberry root etc.  myrrh is very powerful.

> KB

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Yarrow flower in an infusion and used as a douche 2-3 times a day will reduce 

the cervical dysplasia-I had level 4 and was able to eliminate the condition 

within a couple of weeks.  Remember to cool the infusion before douching 

(ouch)!

Catherine



Catherine M. Wood, LCSW, CADC, ADS

Eagle Spirit Healing Center

Where Your Spirit Learns To Soar

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> > What do you use myrrh tincture for?

> 

> A good strong immunostimulant with quirks.

> 

> Henriette



Henriette, would you please tell us more about these "quirks"?



Diana

His Garden Botanicals



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>would you please tell us more about these "quirks"?



The taste would be a good place to start... Ewww.  One of the few things I 

simply -won't- take straight.  Shudder.



Myrrh is, in my opinion, a must-have ingredient for tooth powder,

especially when the gums are enflammed, bleed easily, or are prone to

infection.  I recommend such a tooth powder to people who tend to get

cold or canker sores, and they pretty much uniformly tell me that it

works as a preventive, either reducing or eliminating the occurence of

such sores.



But make sure you add enough flavor to compensate (I use Fennel Oil).

Myrrh flavored tooth powder is dreadful...







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From hetta@saunalahti.fi Fri Aug 30 15:24:49 2002

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From: Henriette Kress <hetta@saunalahti.fi>

To: herb@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Myrrh tincture

Organization: Yrtit ja yrttiterapia

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dlapp@bmi.net wrote to herb@lists.ibiblio.org:



> > > What do you use myrrh tincture for?

> > 

> > A good strong immunostimulant with quirks.

> 

> Henriette, would you please tell us more about these "quirks"?



It's a resin. Resins aren't good for your kidneys.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

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