From hkobayas.students.uiuc.edu Sun Dec 01 03:20:22 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Nepeta and menthol

From: hkobayas <hkobayas.students.uiuc.edu>

Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 19:20:22 -0600



Although these species do not seem common in cultivation, but at least one 

species of Nepeta do produce menthol.



TI: Morphobiological characteristics and components of Nepeta grandiflora 

Bieb. essential oil.

AU: Mishurova-SS; Malinovskaya-TA

AD: Mardakyanskii Dendrarii Instituta Botaniki, Baku, Azerbaijan SSR.

SO: Rastitel'nye-Resursy. 1989, 25: 3, 398-404; 14 ref..

PY: 1989

AB: The growth, development and main morphological features of 1-, 2- and 

3-year-old plants are described. The aerial parts contained 0.12-0.31% of 

essential oil. alpha-Pinene, beta-pinene, cineole, cymene, menthone, thujone, 

menthol, borneol, pulegone, terpineol, citronellol, epinepentalactone and 

nepetalactone were identified. Lactones were the principal compontents 

comprising about 50% of the oil.



AU: Rustaiyan,-A.; Komeilizadah,-H.; Monfared,-A.; Nadji,-K.; Masoudi,-S.; 

Yari,-M.

TI: Volatile constituents of Nepeta denudata Benth. and N. cephalotes Boiss. 

from Iran.

SO: J-essent-oil-res. Carol Stream, Ill. : Allured Publishing Corporation. 

July/Aug 2000. v. 12 (4) p. 462-466..

DE: mentha-piperita. mentha-arvensis. provenance-. harvesting-date. leaves-. 

essential-oils. plant-composition. food-composition. growth-stages. menthol-. 

limonene-. eucalyptol-. finland-.

AB: The composition of the essential oils of Nepeta denudata Benth. and N. 

cephalotes Boiss., which are endemic to Iran, was investigated by means of GC, 

GC/MS and 1H-NMR spectra of the main compounds, 1.8-cineole (48.0%), myrtenol 

(5.0%), beta-pinene (4.6%) and trans-pinocarveol (4.5%) were the main 

components among the 21 constituents characterized in the oil of N. denudata, 

representing 85.7% of the total components detected. Ten compounds were 

identified in the oil of N. cephalotes representing 78.5% of the total oil 

with 4a alpha, 7 alpha, 7a alpha-nepetalactone (35.1%), beta-pinene (18.2%) 

and 1.8-cineole (11.4%) as the major constituents. The structure of 

1,8-cineole, nepetalactone and beta-pinene were confirmed by their 1H-NMR 

spectra.



<You'll find menthol in Mentha spp., not in very much else. None in Nepeta.>



From tmueller.bluegrass.net Sun Dec 01 09:49:10 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Black Walnut Tincture

From: "Thomas Mueller" <tmueller.bluegrass.net>

Date: Sun,  1 Dec 2002 02:49:10 -0500 (EST)



> > When you tincture black walnuts, what part/s do you tincture (

> ----------------

> the inner fresh hull when they are just turning brown.



> Sorcy



What is the inner fresh hull of a black walnut?  As far as I can see, there is

an outer hull but no inner hull.  Inside the outer hull is a hard shell that

encloses the edible meat of the black walnut.



From williamj.nac.net Mon Dec 02 00:32:37 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] Black Walnut Tincture

From: "Bill Jacobson" <williamj.nac.net>

Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 17:32:37 -0500



I think you are getting your black walnuts in the store where they have been

hulled.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Thomas Mueller" <tmueller.bluegrass.net>

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 2:49 AM

Subject: Re: [Herb] Black Walnut Tincture



> > > When you tincture black walnuts, what part/s do you tincture (

> > ----------------

> > the inner fresh hull when they are just turning brown.

>

> > Sorcy

>

> What is the inner fresh hull of a black walnut?  As far as I can see,

there is

> an outer hull but no inner hull.  Inside the outer hull is a hard shell

that

> encloses the edible meat of the black walnut.



From elementalclay.webtv.net Mon Dec 02 00:50:48 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Black Walnut Tincture

From: elementalclay.webtv.net (Roxanne Brown)

Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 16:50:48 -0600 (CST)



Sorcy,

  Is what you use the pith inside the hull?

I can remember pulling the hull off and some of the white pith clinging

to the nut.

  I'm curious if you are using this method because of the environmental

toxins that may have settled on the outside of the shell or if you have

found the inner hull to be more potent for tannins.

Thanks,

Roxanne



http://www.elementalgallery.com

Look not for Wealth in the Glitter of Gold

      But in your Grandmother's Smile



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Mon Dec 02 10:15:34 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Black Walnut Tincture

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 10:15:34 +0200



"Thomas Mueller" <tmueller.bluegrass.net> wrote to herb.lists.ibiblio.org:



> What is the inner fresh hull of a black walnut?  As far as I can see, there is

> an outer hull but no inner hull.  Inside the outer hull is a hard shell that

> encloses the edible meat of the black walnut.



Think of walnuts as peach seeds and the green hull as the peach. 

That's what walnuts look like on the tree.



Store-bought walnuts are ripe, compleat with hardened inner shell, which, in

these walnuts, is considered the outer shell, especially by people who haven't

seen it growing on trees.



Anyway, for those who go to the trouble to peel off the green stuff of unripe

walnuts, pecans and other Juglans spp.: just slice it all up, there's no need to

divide the fruit into separate parts.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From tmueller.bluegrass.net Thu Dec 05 09:05:56 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Black Walnut Tincture

From: "Thomas Mueller" <tmueller.bluegrass.net>

Date: Thu,  5 Dec 2002 02:05:56 -0500 (EST)



from "Bill Jacobson" <williamj.nac.net>:



> I think you are getting your black walnuts in the store where they have been

> hulled.



I get black walnuts as they fall from the trees.  I remove the outer hull,

leaving the nut in the shell, still wet and messy, capable of staining hands and

clothes.  This nut needs time to dry before shelling.  Meat inside is

convoluted, thus separating the meat from the shell after cracking with a hammer

on a hard surface is laborious.  I see the outer hull, removed in the first

step, as one layer, don't see any inner hull outside the hard shell.



From jclarke1.mn.rr.com Thu Dec 05 15:49:56 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] Black Walnut Tincture

From: "Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1.mn.rr.com>

Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 07:49:56 -0600



Hard shell = inner hull



-----Original Message-----



 I see the outer hull, removed in the first

step, as one layer, don't see any inner hull outside the hard shell.



From williamj.nac.net Thu Dec 05 19:31:36 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] Black Walnut Tincture

From: "Bill Jacobson" <williamj.nac.net>

Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:31:36 -0500



Most use the outer hull, which is thick and green and very smelly and

stains, turning black over time.  Perhaps you want the inner shell of that

part?  But everyone so far has said you make the tincture out of the fleshy,

green outer hull.  I hope this clears things up.   I have no idea what inner

hull inside the hard shell you are looking for..there has never been any in

my walnuts either.  I think there has been a confusion on your part,

perhaps, of the hard shell one cracks with a hammer or nutcracker and the

green fleshy hull.  Hull and shell are not the same. -----

From: "Thomas Mueller" <tmueller.bluegrass.net>

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 2:05 AM

Subject: Re: [Herb] Black Walnut Tincture



> from "Bill Jacobson" <williamj.nac.net>:

>

> > I think you are getting your black walnuts in the store where they have

been

> > hulled.

>

> I get black walnuts as they fall from the trees.  I remove the outer hull,

> leaving the nut in the shell, still wet and messy, capable of staining

hands and

> clothes.  This nut needs time to dry before shelling.  Meat inside is

> convoluted, thus separating the meat from the shell after cracking with a

hammer

> on a hard surface is laborious.  I see the outer hull, removed in the

first

> step, as one layer, don't see any inner hull outside the hard shell.



From multiflorum.hotmail.com Mon Dec 02 16:51:23 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Black Walnut Tincture

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 09:51:23 -0500



Don't recall who mentioned they used black walnut tincture for Shingles, but 

I just had the opportunity to use it for this and it worked EXCELLENT.



The woman came to me with a eruptive, itchy skin rash, for which I made a 

blend of Burdock, Nettles, Cleavers, Calendula & Chickweed internally (4-5x 

daily), and a salve mostly of Chickweed, Plantain & Violet, and been making 

slow, steady progress, but was having a really difficult time with the 

itching, and though she knew she shouldn't scartch, it was simply 

unbearable.  After a few weeks, she said she believed it was shingles, which 

she'd had as a child.  Soon after I read the recommendation for black 

walnut, and had her apply the tincture topically.  Since she started using 

it, she said the itching stoppeed almost immediately, and the rash is fading 

noticably, and she is SO HAPPY not to be scratching all the time.



So... whoever shared that info... Thanks!



From carlton.midrivers.com Mon Dec 02 03:53:03 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] scarring and Centella

From: "Aliceann or Scott" <carlton.midrivers.com>

Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 18:53:03 -0700 (Mountain Standard Time)



 Yes, I have used it severa; times as a soak in sesame oil and then added

sprinkled over the injured area.  Given that two injuries went through a

couple of skin layers, I was impressed there was rapid healing, no tightness

(one on a finger and the other over the tendon above the ankle), and no

scarring.  A great initial pain killer, anti-inflammatory, and

anti-infective was to sprinkle and pack the abraded areas with turmeric

powder.  Be prepared for an alum effect at first but then...no pain.  The

centella and sesame oil I started within 8 hours, repeating 2 times a day

for about a week.





Worth a try and an inexpensive standby...





Best Regards,


Aliceann





 


-------Original Message-------


 


Subject: [Herb] scarring and Centella


 


Anyone any experience of Gotu Cola for scar prevention? Would a tincture in


a base cream be woth doing?


 


Thanks,


Namh


 


ps forgot to tell the thyroidectomy scar person about applying pressure to


scars to prevent keloids. 


 





. 



From krw97.juno.com Mon Dec 02 15:20:59 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Yohimbe

From: krw97.juno.com

Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:20:59 -0500



Has anyone tried this?  Any success?



From sorcy.kskbirkenfeld.de Mon Dec 02 23:55:54 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] Black Walnut 

From: "Sorcy" <sorcy.kskbirkenfeld.de>

Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 22:55:54 +0100



> What is the inner fresh hull of a black walnut?

-------------------

maybe 'hull' is the wrong word.... I don't harvest them myself, my herbalist

friend with her own tree (and several others quoting how to's) say there is

a sort of membrane inside the outer hull.... however, they also consent that

usually they just take off the outside and use the entire inner goo....

I'll try to dig out the article



GB, Sorcy



From sorcy.kskbirkenfeld.de Wed Dec 04 23:32:59 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] Re:  Black Walnut facts

From: "Sorcy" <sorcy.kskbirkenfeld.de>

Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 22:32:59 +0100



I'm so glad I have friends who remember better then I do... here it is:



------------

    The Black Walnut Hulls are harvested when the hulls have fallen off the

tree and are green. Usually in the autumn.At this point - they are used as a

paraciticiside and this seems to be the time(when the huslls are gree) to

use

them to get rid of intestinal parasites. To make a tincture or salve or

cream

to handle skin fungus or ecsema - it is best to make a tincture when the

hulls

are turning black. AT this time - the black gooey stuff between the walnut

and

the skin is the most potent.

    There ARE debates on this however, with some herbalists saying that ONLY

the green hull should be used. The above is gleaned fromDr.Richard Schulze

and

Dr. Chrisophers notes and from (ahem) my own use where I have seen skin

infections that have not had any success with various chemical remedies,

vanish

with Black Walnut tincture made from BLACK, GOOEY walnut hulls in alcohol.

Here

are some posts on it..........Love Penny



BLACK WALNUT

Scientific Name: Juglans nigra, Juglans regia

Southern California Black Walnut [Juglans californica Wats. var.

californica]



Other Names: Butternut, Oilnut, English Walnut.



Medicinal Properties and Actions:

Vermifuge, tonic, alterative, laxative, astringent, warming. It affects

the colon, small intestine, spleen.



Target Ailments

Taken internally for Constipation, intestinal worms and parasites,

warts, and mouth sores.



Applied externally for: Ringworm, scabies, eczema, herpes, psoriasis,

sores, pimples, athlete's foot, jock itch and cold sores.



Preparations

Over the counter:

Black walnut is available as tinctures, extract, dried bark, leaves and

fruit rind.



At home:

Decoction: Bark simmered in boiling water for 10 to 15 minutes.

Gargle: Decoction used as a mouthwash or gargle to treat mouth sores.

Extract: Rubbed on the affected area twice a day.

Poultice: A poultice made from the green rind of black walnut and

applied to the sites of ringworm.



Habitat:

Black walnut grows in many parts of North America, as well as in Europe.



Traditional uses:

The hulls over the nut can be used as a very mild natural laxative

(Native Americans made a tea from the leaves) that will neither impair

the digestive functions nor cause nausea, irritation or pain. In

addition, black walnut helps with intestinal problems and relieves

various skin irritations. It can also be used to treat sore throats,

tonsillitis, hemorrhoids, ringworm (Navite Americans used the bark...how

I'm not sure), headaches (N.A. chewed the bark), sinus problems and

thyroid deficiencies.



Black walnut is rich in tannins and contains a large amount of iodine,

which makes it a good antiseptic. Also, the herb is believed to relieve

toxic blood conditions. And some evidence indicates that, if used

internally over a long period, the herb will help eliminate warts caused

by viruses.



Leaflets are rich in chemicals called "polyphenols" that are an

excellent defense against insects. These polyphenols, though, accumulate

in the soils around the walnut trees (the walnut roots also secrete

these polyphenols) and act as a controlling, ecological force within the

soil ecosystem.



Considered by many to be a good travel companion for journeys in places

where food and water may contain bacteria and parasites which cause

nausea, stomach pains, and diarrhea. Some herbalists feel that using the

green, undried pulp is superior as a parasitic than the dried form.

Further, the black walnut is currently in demand because of the theory

that parasites are at the root of colon cancer. The tree has been used

in local herbal practices around the world and continues to be used in

countries from Pakistan to the United States. While the Black Walnut has

many uses for the intestinal system, it can also be used as a preventive

measure before problems ever begin to appear.



TOXICITY RATING: Moderately toxic, depending upon length of exposure.

ANIMALS AFFECTED: Horses, dogs, possibly other animals. There have been

no  reports of toxicity in HUMANS

CLASS OF SIGNS: Laminitis, breathing problems, gastroenteritis.

Horses may be affected by black walnut chips or sawdust when they are

used for bedding material. Close association with walnut trees while

pollen is being shed (typically in May) also produce allergic symptoms

in both horses and humans. The juglone toxin occurs in the leaves, bark

and wood of walnut, but these contain lower concentrations than in the

roots. Juglone is poorly soluble in water and does not move very far in

the soil.



COMPOSTING NOTES:

Walnut leaves can be composted because the toxin breaks down when

exposed to air, water and bacteria. The toxic effect can be degraded in

two to four weeks. In soil, breakdown may take up to two months. Black

walnut leaves may be composted separately, and the finished compost

tested for toxicity by planting tomato seedlings in it. Sawdust mulch,

fresh sawdust or chips from street tree prunings from black walnut are

not suggested for plants sensitive to juglone, such as blueberry or

other plants that are sensitive to juglone. However, composting of bark

for a minimum of six months provides a safe mulch even for plants

sensitive to juglone.



Research Links:



http://www.ag.ohio-state.edu/~ohioline/hyg-fact/1000/1148.html

http://www.hcs.ohio-state.edu/ODNR/Education/ohiotrees/walnutblack.htm

http://www.treelite.com/NaturesField/walnut.html

http://www.vet.purdue.edu/depts/addl/toxic/plant45.htm

http://www.sierraclub.org/chapters/sandiego/rareplants/130.html

http://www.nk.psu.edu/naturetrail/speciespages/blackwalnut.htm

http://onhealth.webmd.com/alternative/resource/herbs/item,16074.asp

http://www.exoticbird.com/gillian/blackwalnut.html



From Dr. Christopher

 have only used the green husk in my medications, but according

> to the Christopher bio, the black husks must still

> work.  http://www.herbsfirst.com/drbio.html



         He says that:



""Monday morning!" Ray snapped back, without really thinking. Then he

realized-he just had one week. Here, far from home without the herbs that

he generally used, he had to treat the worst case of impetigo he had ever

seen. Immediately he called a Salt Lake friend who had a black walnut tree

in his backyard. He explained his dilemma, and his friend agreed to gather

the black walnut husks, even though the ground was covered with snow. They

were transported overnight to Fort Lewis. Ray picked them up in the

morning-sopping wet, which could weaken their potency. Not only that, but

Ray only had rubbing alcohol, not grain alcohol, which was not available

through the army medical system. And instead of fourteen days to macerate

the tincture, he figured he could take only two days. He carried the

tincture with him, shaking it vigorously all the time. "



         I guarantee that those walnut husks were black.  So don't

disregard them, they may still be of use.



>

> HOME REMEDIES: BLACK WALNUT SALVE

>

> I think combining home remedies and typical, American medical practice is

a

> great idea for the y2k. Something great I got from an Amish friend was

> Black Walnut salve for infections. My son had an infection that was deep

in

> his foot (rusty nail) that antibiotics(including IV antibiotics) were not

> clearing up. The salve work: drew the infection right out. You could

> actually see a dark spot come up to the skin until the top of the wound's

> skin actually peeled away. This only took three days, 3 times a day after

> the intensive antibiotics hadn't worked. I don't know how to make it, but

> if you know of an herbalist or other traditional medicine type person, ask

> them. The salve has lasted several years and I hope to talk to a local

> herbalist and get a fresh supply before the Y2k. - don't know if this is

of

> use. xxx

> Title: Black Walnut Salve

>  Categories: Salves

>       2   parts Black Walnut

>       2   parts Chaparral

>       1   parts Myrrh

>       1   parts Burdock

>       1   parts Echinacea

>            Olive Oil

>            Beeswax

>            Vitamin E

>     10 dr Tea Tree Oil, Per Ounce, Optional

> [Note: Copyright by Millie Fodor]

> This salve is primarily used to fight fungal infections such as, eczema,

> ringworm, and athletes foot.

>

> -Black Walnut Tincture-

> .Fungus Formula

>

> Usages: This is one of the best known remedies for fungus. Use

> externally and apply frequently.

> Black walnut tincture can be applied on itching skin. This works

> especially well if the irritation is due to a fungus or similar

> invasion.  Black Walnut has traditionally been used to treat

> hemorrhoids, intestinal worms, wounds and bruises. This herb has

> anti-fungal and anti-septic characteristics. It also has a thyroid

> stimulant effect since it is also high in iodine. Many have used it to

> treat lice.

> Dosages:

> Lice: For quick relief, bathe the head or body parts with straight apple

> cider vinegar, oil of garlic, or black walnut tincture or tea.

>

> Fungus Such as Impetigo, Contagiosa: This is a contagious disease,

> caused by staphylococci masked by flat vesicles that become pustular and

> then crusted. The best aid that can be given to clear up a fungus

> condition is the use of black walnut tincture as a fomentation

> externally and 6-10 drops three or more times a day taken orally in

> liquid (fruit juices or herbal teas).

> Ingredients: Black walnut and alcohol.

> Useful in treating: Acne, Athlete's Foot, Boils, Cuts, Cysts, Dandruff,

> Itch

> The green hull surrounding the nut of the black walnut tree is a

> miraculous parasiticide. After it has turned black it is useless. The

> large green balls fall to the ground early in the fall. In a week or two

> they will be black and decaying. Therefore, anyone wishing to make

> parasiticide must be careful not to let the critical time for harvesting

> pass. I encourage everyone to make their own parasiticide, and to take

> back the responsibility of keeping themselves and their families free of

> these tiny monsters. The recipe for Black Walnut Green Hull Tincture is

> given in Recipes.

> Note that it is a tincture -- extracted using grain alcohol -- rather

> than an ordinary extract, which use water. The Black Walnut extract

> available from some herb companies is not potent enough to make an

> effective parasiticide. It is black, not pale green, indicating that the

> critical harvesting time had passed.



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Thu Dec 05 00:07:44 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Re:  Black Walnut facts

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 00:07:44 +0200



"Sorcy" <sorcy.kskbirkenfeld.de> wrote to <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>:



> I'm so glad I have friends who remember better then I do... here it is:

> 

> ------------

>     The Black Walnut Hulls are harvested when the hulls have fallen off the

> tree and are green. Usually in the autumn.At this point - they are used as a

> paraciticiside and this seems to be the time(when the hulls are green) to

> use them to get rid of intestinal parasites. To make a tincture or salve or



Black walnuts (and other Juglans species) do _nothing_ for parasites. Instead,

they're extremely good at clearing up ileo-cecal irritability.



And that's what most people with "parasites" in fact have.



Note, the leaf works just as well as the green fruit. And note, the juice of the

green fruit (and leaf? I forget; haven't picked it lately) stains everything

black. That's _everything_. A tincture of either works nicely, but you can dry

the leaf or slice up and dry the fruit, and use those as a tea, too.



As for parasites: if you've been diagnosed as having parasites, and the person

diagnosing you took blood and stool samples and sent them on to a lab for

analysis (ie. reliable tests that tell you _exactly_ what organism is feeding

off you), you should ask your MD for meds. They're pretty reliable, but above

all, they're _safe_. People have died from taking herbs for their tapeworms and

similar.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From sorcy.kskbirkenfeld.de Thu Dec 05 01:07:57 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] Re:  Black Walnut facts

From: "Sorcy" <sorcy.kskbirkenfeld.de>

Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 00:07:57 +0100



> Black walnuts (and other Juglans species) do _nothing_ for parasites.

----------

which research would show that, could you forward some backup info?

I'd be intersted to follow up on that as all we found does quote the

parasite reference, including a few personal accounts



thanks. Sorcy



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Fri Dec 06 10:57:20 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Re:  Black Walnut facts

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 10:57:20 +0200



"Sorcy" <sorcy.kskbirkenfeld.de> wrote to <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>:



> > Black walnuts (and other Juglans species) do _nothing_ for parasites.

>

> which research would show that, could you forward some backup info?

> I'd be intersted to follow up on that as all we found does quote the

> parasite reference, including a few personal accounts



ALL the old works say "good for digestive upset". NONE of them say "good for

parasites". Show me somebody who has a parasite diagnosis from a doctor with a

lab and I show you somebody who has that same diagnosis after a year-long course

of black walnut.



As for the personal accounts, which organisms did these people have, exactly?

Ask them which lab tests were done to confirm the presence of their parasites.



The "walnut is for parasites" craze ran wild with and after Hulda Clarke, who

thought that all disease is dependent on parasites... not somebody I'd trust

with my health.



After that it was picked up by kinesiologists... not somebody I'd trust to give

me an exact medical diagnosis. Kinesiologists can be good, but most aren't.



The whole "use this herb for your parasites" thing is making herbal remedies

ridiculous for _anybody_ who knows something about parasites. 



And that means there's more people now who say "Herbal medicine? Bah, humbug."

than there were before Clarke's parasite book.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From MARDI2GRAS.aol.com Thu Dec 05 05:09:52 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Re:  Black Walnut facts

From: MARDI2GRAS.aol.com

Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 22:09:52 EST



<PRE>what a great post, thanks for your time!



From ngbard.juno.com Fri Dec 06 00:03:08 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Re:  Black Walnut facts

From: Marcia V Grossbard <ngbard.juno.com>

Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:03:08 -0500



On Thu, 5 Dec 2002 00:07:57 +0100 "Sorcy" <sorcy.kskbirkenfeld.de>

writes:

> > Black walnuts (and other Juglans species) do _nothing_ for 

> parasites.

> ----------

> which research would show that, could you forward some backup info?

> I'd be intersted to follow up on that as all we found does quote the

> parasite reference, including a few personal accounts

> 

> thanks. Sorcy

===============



Also which parasites are being referred to?  It may not kill a tapeworm,

but it is helpful for things that itch in the skin.  What is the source? 

Do we need something like snopes.com for herbal rumors and lies?



Marcia



From mterry.snet.net Thu Dec 05 16:28:55 2002

To: "herb.lists.ibiblio.org" <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] Canker Sore Info

From: May Terry <mterry.snet.net>

Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 09:28:55 -0500



Considering recent emails about canker sores, I thought some of you

might find this interesting.



http://altmedicine.about.com/library/weekly/aa120601a.htm



May

--

The time is always right to do what is right.  ---Martin Luther King,

Jr.



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Thu Dec 05 21:34:28 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Chinese Herbs and Safety

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 21:34:28 +0200



"Caroline Fatemi" <carolinef.mindspring.com> wrote to "Herb.Lists. Ibiblio. Org"

<herb.lists.ibiblio.org>:



> any thoughts on this story...:

> 

> http://www.happyherbalist.com/chinese_herbs.htm



Don't repost the whole thing, just give the URL. What you've done is republish

the article - that's against _all_ copyright laws everywhere.



What you _should_ post is your own thoughts on the matter.



Anyway, it's pretty common knowledge that Chinese herbal remedies in China

include pharmaceutical meds. And that, if you want _clean_ Chinese herbal

remedies, you buy them from somebody who follows western manufacturing

practises, ie. who states _all_ ingredients on the label, and who, when selling

something as herbal medicine, ensures that it includes nothing but the herbs

mentioned on said label.



Anybody importing their TCM remedies from China can get ...interesting surprises

- they've found anything from mercury and lead to opiates and benzoediazepam in

"herbal" TCM pills.



Other than that, shrug. It's never smart to pop a pill you have no clue about,

be it herbal, Chinese herbal, or western.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From mt_turtle.email.com Thu Dec 05 22:44:24 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Re:Yohimbe

From: "K B" <mt_turtle.email.com>

Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 05:44:24 +0900



for what purpose?

It can be used at low doses as a metabolism stimulent for weight loss and acorbic acid to treat impotence due to such as RX use.  Should not be used at high doses, for extended periods of time or by those with high blood pressure of kidney disease.

KB

-- 



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From mt_turtle.email.com Thu Dec 05 22:56:44 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] RE:Black Walnut Tincture

From: "K B" <mt_turtle.email.com>

Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 05:56:44 +0900



YOUI WROTE:

Hard shell = inner hull



I ADD: 

I think part of the problem is that some folks either haven't ever seen a black walnut nut in it's natural environment or have only seen it when full ripe and ready to crack for the nut meats.



In the case of a green walnut nut (as in not yet ripe, the part that will become the hard shell is soft and easily sliced with an ordinary kitchen knife and the nut meats have not yet formed.  There is the outer green colored leathery skin layer, the inner -not-yet-hard layer and then the middle will-become-the nut meat center mass.  



You will never see this unless someone goes into the woods and picks them from the tree.  



In the fall, after the nut meats ar ripe you have a green leather skin layer that stains your hands, a hard shell layer and the ready to eat nut meats.  If late fall, you have a black mush layer, the hard shell layer and nut meats full of worms.

KB



-- 



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From mt_turtle.email.com Thu Dec 05 23:03:24 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Re: Yohimbe

From: "K B" <mt_turtle.email.com>

Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 06:03:24 +0900



I WROTE:

<snip>or by those with high blood pressure of kidney disease.



I ADD: ooooops... it should have read"OR kidney disease".

KB

-- 



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From lakshmi.kingcon.com Fri Dec 06 14:02:42 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] parasites was black walnut

From: "Michelle Morton-niyama" <lakshmi.kingcon.com>

Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:02:42 -0500



>

> The "walnut is for parasites" craze ran wild with and after Hulda Clarke,

who

> thought that all disease is dependent on parasites...



Kind of gives you the willies , huh?



Just thinking that one is "impure" and full of creepy crawlies is enough to

*make* anyone sick! I have just met an herbalist  who is big on the parasite

thing, and seems to use "detox" protocols - and I am not sure that lab

testing is being done...



I would be more in favor of strengthening the digestion and liver, rather

than weakening the body with vermifuges. I think that sets the body up for

more trouble...



Michelle



PS Henriette- what do you think of the toxicity level of Black Walnut, for

digestive complaints?



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Fri Dec 06 16:22:51 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] parasites was black walnut

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 16:22:51 +0200



"Michelle Morton-niyama" <lakshmi.kingcon.com> wrote to

<herb.lists.ibiblio.org>:



> Just thinking that one is "impure" and full of creepy crawlies is enough to

> *make* anyone sick! 



We are, of course. There's more bacteria in our gut than there's cells in our

bodies. 



Also, we have lots of skin symbionts and such. More a question of "is it a

symbiote or a parasite" than a question of "get rid of it get RID of it!"



And, if we were completely and utterly sterile (sterile as in no

micro-organisms, not sterile as in infertile), we'd succumb to the very first

bug that comes along, once we'd get out of our glass box.



(And our digestion wouldn't work at all, but that's another story.)



We _need_ bugs. We also need some of our parasites. Sure, there's some that are

detrimental to our health and some that are _very_ detrimental to our health,

but most are quite benign.



> I would be more in favor of strengthening the digestion and liver, rather

> than weakening the body with vermifuges. I think that sets the body up for

> more trouble...



See, most of the parasite folks also follow Hulda's protocols. Therefore, black

walnut, which actually is good for most people with "parasites".



As for walnut toxicity: if you take too much you can get the runs or get

nauseous; at those doses it won't help your digestion (and liver) anymore, so

back off a bit. It's been used as a laxative in larger doses, so shrug.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From teragram.silcom.com Fri Dec 06 17:08:25 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] parasites was black walnut

From: "Teragram" <teragram.silcom.com>

Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:08:25 -0800



> We are, of course. There's more bacteria in our gut than there's

> cells in our bodies.



Um, no.  Reason this out, Henriette.  What is the average size of a

bacteria? What is the average size of a human cell?



By the way, babies have working gall bladders the day they're born, too.

When an infant's gall bladder doesn't work they have to have emergency

surgery.



- T.



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Fri Dec 06 18:19:45 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] parasites was black walnut

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 18:19:45 +0200



"Teragram" <teragram.silcom.com> wrote to <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>:



> Um, no.  Reason this out, Henriette.  What is the average size of a

> bacteria? What is the average size of a human cell?



If you say so.



> By the way, babies have working gall bladders the day they're born, too.

> When an infant's gall bladder doesn't work they have to have emergency

> surgery.



A baby's gallbladder can't handle fats, until they're a few months old. We're

mammals, and milk fats are absorbed in the stomach lining; there's simply no

_need_ for a working gallbladder at first.



And, no matter what, babies can't handle menthol.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From teragram.silcom.com Fri Dec 06 20:08:34 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] parasites was black walnut

From: "TeraGram" <teragram.silcom.com>

Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:08:34 -0800



> And, no matter what, babies can't handle menthol.



As you said to me: If you say so.



Look, Henriette, snotiness does no one any favors.  I have extensively

researched this topic since your first proclamation that menthol is no good

for babies.  To the contrary I have found example after example of why mint

teas are some of the easiest and most effective remedies for quite a few

things infants can face and much less toxic than the "allopathic" remedies

so many companies try to foist on our kids.



Your explanation that infants don't have working gall bladders is proven

false. Now you claim babies can't handle fats, again wrong.  If this were

the case all the babies being fed cow's milk or soy formulas would be

starving.



- T.



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Fri Dec 06 21:19:43 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] parasites was black walnut

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 21:19:43 +0200



"TeraGram" <teragram.silcom.com> wrote to <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>:



> Your explanation that infants don't have working gall bladders is proven

> false. Now you claim babies can't handle fats, again wrong.  If this were

> the case all the babies being fed cow's milk or soy formulas would be

> starving.



Cow's milk is milk fat, and is absorbed through the stomach lining. Cows, too,

are mammals.



Soy formulas - how much fat in those? From soy beans, or other sources? The

inability to digest fats just might be one of the reasons soy "milk" is so

allergenic.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From jclarke1.mn.rr.com Fri Dec 06 21:34:10 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] parasites was black walnut

From: "Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1.mn.rr.com>

Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:34:10 -0600



Actually, it's believed to be the proteins in soy formula which are so

allergenic. Same with cow's milk, very allergenic to babies. About 30-50% of

individuals who are allergic to cow milk protein are also allergic to soy.



Kerry



-----Original Message-----

From: herb-admin.lists.ibiblio.org

Soy formulas - how much fat in those? From soy beans, or other sources? The

inability to digest fats just might be one of the reasons soy "milk" is so

allergenic.



From williamj.nac.net Sat Dec 07 00:41:39 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] parasites was black walnut

From: "Bill Jacobson" <williamj.nac.net>

Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:41:39 -0500



silence is sometimes the best answer.



----- Original Message -----

From: "TeraGram" <teragram.silcom.com>

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 1:08 PM

Subject: RE: [Herb] parasites was black walnut



> > And, no matter what, babies can't handle menthol.

>

> As you said to me: If you say so.

>

>

> Look, Henriette, snotiness does no one any favors.  I have extensively

> researched this topic since your first proclamation that menthol is no

good

> for babies.  To the contrary I have found example after example of why

mint

> teas are some of the easiest and most effective remedies for quite a few

> things infants can face and much less toxic than the "allopathic" remedies

> so many companies try to foist on our kids.

>

> Your explanation that infants don't have working gall bladders is proven

> false. Now you claim babies can't handle fats, again wrong.  If this were

> the case all the babies being fed cow's milk or soy formulas would be

> starving.

>

>

> - T.



From carlton.midrivers.com Sat Dec 07 20:47:26 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] parasites was black walnut

From: "Aliceann or Scott" <carlton.midrivers.com>

Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 11:47:26 -0700 (Mountain Standard Time)



 Oomph....nastiness isn't any use either T.





Bacteria are FAR more numerous than body cells....as in how many of each fit

on the head of a pin? Also, as others have pointed out, digestion isn't

simply a matter of the gut but is a process of every cell...and every cell

requires bacteria to digest and transform "food" into nourishment.





In my opinion infants shouldn't be given any herbs...menthol or otherwise. 

Any herbal effects should come from mother's milk...which contains fats is

digestible through the stomach lining as the rest of an infant's digestive

system needs time to mature.  The stomach fluids (and saliva) pre-digest

milk and fats through abundant enzymes. 





To treat infant digestive distress with anything other than swaddling.

rocking, warm baths, and massage is to do a disservice to them...allopathic

or otherwise.  Fennel, lavender and ajwan taken as a tea by the nursing

mother in small quantities as well as correct diet on the mother's part will

do more than any medicines or herbs.  If the mother is stressed and produces

stress hormones that that effect will come through the milk and overly

stimulate the infant.  So, properly taking care of the mother is an absolute

in preventing/minimizing infant gut problems.  Then also consider that the

first experience of "hunger pangs" and digestive flow is uncomfortable for

any baby....likely to result in inconsolable crying from fright/distress

until the digestive system and baby's cognitive connections are more

developed.  So, not all crying over tummy spasms is necessarily bad...it

often is a part of the awakening body.





The gall bladder also needs maturing and experience in managing release of

bile...so, while it may be functional at birth, it is not necessarily

effective at the times food goes through the gut.  Also the gall bladder is

a holding tank for bile which develops a timed release based upon messages

from the mouth and stomach (and sometimes from the olfactory system) that

food has entered the system and will need processing.  Bile is still

produced and enters the digestive system without benefit of the gall bladder

...maybe not so efficiently but still in response to food triggers.





(Giving babies soy is a risky venture as we have learned in recent years...

due to stimulation of reproductive systems that also haven't "learned" to

metabolize and manage soy concentrates).  





The whole function of colostrum in the first 24-72 hours is to help the

infant gut and other tissues with enzymes and antibodies it does not yet 

recognize" from protection in utero.  You know the baby gut is more mature

when the feces begin to take on more shape and smell.  Littlest one's feces

are sweet smelling and soft....a Kapha trait reflecting the Kapha nature of

infancy.  The Pitta stuff shows up later on "cranking up" the heat through

bile and more acidic components needed for more complex foods and

nutritional transformation and absorption.





If you give an infant menthols you are introducing salicylates among other

things.  Now, I don't know about you, but I am wary of throwing aspirin

effects into any body let alone a baby's immature one.





In my opinion, Henriette is correct in her to the point response regarding

infants and herbs...gall bladder or otherwise.





Best regards,


Aliceann


 


-------Original Message-------


 


 


 


 


Look, Henriette, snotiness does no one any favors. I have extensively


researched this topic since your first proclamation that menthol is no good


for babies. 


 


Your explanation that infants don't have working gall bladders is proven


false. Now you claim babies can't handle fats, again wrong. If this were


the case all the babies being fed cow's milk or soy formulas would be


starving.


 


 



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Fri Dec 06 21:46:43 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] parasites was black walnut

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 21:46:43 +0200



"Teragram" <teragram.silcom.com> wrote to <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>:



> > We are, of course. There's more bacteria in our gut than there's

> > cells in our bodies.

> 

> Um, no.  Reason this out, Henriette.  What is the average size of a

> bacteria? What is the average size of a human cell?



http://www.cellsalive.com/howbig.htm (needs flash).



http://www.mansfield.ohio-state.edu/~sabedon/black04.htm - just a basic cell

structure info sheet, but of interest is point (6): the size of prokaryotes. It

includes an image of an epithelial cell (an eukaryote) with small specks - which

are bacteria (a prokaryote).



So yes, we have far more bacteria in our gut that we have cells in our body. Or

do you still disagree? If so, why?



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From lakshmi.kingcon.com Fri Dec 06 18:45:34 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] parasites was black walnut

From: "Michelle Morton-niyama" <lakshmi.kingcon.com>

Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:45:34 -0500



> > Just thinking that one is "impure" and full of creepy crawlies is enough

to

> > *make* anyone sick!

>

> We are, of course. There's more bacteria in our gut than there's cells in

our

> bodies.



Of course! I was referring to this from the crazed get RID of it perspective

which seems to work people into frenzies thay they are filthy

and need to drink purifying concoctions that purge from both ends.

And going on raw food diets which inevitably weaken digestion and make one

deficient- in need of the tonics that they needed in the first place!



Thanks for your reply,

Michelle



From mterry.snet.net Fri Dec 06 16:31:25 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] parasites was black walnut

From: May Terry <mterry.snet.net>

Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 09:31:25 -0500



Michelle Morton-niyama wrote:



> >

> > The "walnut is for parasites" craze ran wild with and after Hulda Clarke,

> who

> > thought that all disease is dependent on parasites...

>

> Kind of gives you the willies , huh?



It's a little bit like the people who think that all disease is due to colon

impurities, and are recommending extensive colon cleansing, i.e., enemas, for

everyone, or the people who think that all your problems will be solved if you

only eat the right diet for your blood type.  "Everything" isn't caused by any

one thing.



May

--

The time is always right to do what is right.  ---Martin Luther King, Jr.



From multiflorum.hotmail.com Fri Dec 06 18:07:45 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] parasites was black walnut

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 11:07:45 -0500



I think one of the most ironic things about people obsessed with 

"detoxifying" or "cleansing" is that "treating" it is usually a short term, 

harsh process, rather than a long term, gentle one.  People seem to find it 

so much easier to deal with themselves in an abrupt, forceful way than a 

sustained, gentle way.  They'd rather drink a quart of olive oil to  "remove 

stones" and throw up for a while than change the way they are living that is 

making them feel like they are sick.  They buy senna/cascara sagrada/aloe 

"colon cleaners" they can take for a week to wring out their insides, but 

lose interest in using a gentle, nourishing alterative like Burdock over a 

long period of time because they can't "feel it working".  Evidently you're 

not "cleansing" effectively enough if the toxins aren't being forcefully 

evacuated from you're body.



Most people are in a state of sub-clinical illness.  They don't feel alive 

and vibrant and inspired; they feel tired, depressed and disinterested, and 

their metabolism is all outta whack because of a poor diet and lack of 

exercise and too much stress... look around at the average 35-45 year old 

and you'll see it clearly.  Some will go to the doctor and get diagnosed 

with chronic fatigue or fibromyalgia, some will get sent for test after test 

for MS, MD, Lupus, or other terrifying names, which scares the bejesus (how 

do you spell that?) out of them and makes them feel worse.  They need some 

kind of name so they can know that someone will "know what to do".  Others 

want to "be natural", and go to someone who says "its not your fault, you 

have parasites (or candida, or "toxins")... take this all natural formula".  

Most of these people, in my opinion, simply don't feel fulfilled in their 

lives, they stay at home, work, rush around, and have stopped doing all the 

things that they really love in life (doesn't it seem like the first things 

people stop doing when they get stressed out & overwhelmed are the very 

things that they need in order to maintain their well being?).  They feel 

lousy not only because of their poor habits, but because their body is 

trying to tell them to do something by feeling bad... it's trying to get 

their attention.



There are so many stories that we all have about people we've seen or helped 

that really wanted an herb to counteract the life they choose to live, 

something that would fix their problems without making them stop doing the 

things that cause them ("I'm not depressed because I'm not in love with the 

person I'm married too and I only stay in the relationship for our kids, I 

have a chemical imbalance").  I have a good friend whose 32 years old and 

starting to have all kinds of warning signs for problems down the road, but 

wants something he can just take when problems "flare up" and not an 

everyday tonic.



I like to develope constitutional tonics for people, usually a blend of 

alteratives that will nourish them and focus on strengthening any weaknesses 

I see in them, to be used on a long term basis while a more specific 

medicinal blend is taken to address their acute complaint.  They're my 

favorite preparations ro make, each one is different, each one is custom 

formulated for that individual.  Far too often, people use them till the 

acute problem goes away, then stop taking everything till the imbalance 

manifests again.  Frustrating.



That's why I teach, because most people don't understand the way that a 

traditional herbalist works, what "holistic" really means.  They simply see 

herbs as "natural, safe" alternatives to OTCs & meds.  The current trend in 

modern herbalism, led by the german/european "nutriceutical" companies and 

emphasis on clinical tests and standardized extracts, is only taking us 

farther in this direction.  Almost everything the average person knows about 

herbs comes from marketing.



...uh-oh... I think I've started to rant... I better let you all go before I 

get WAY off topic...



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Fri Dec 06 18:17:20 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] parasites was black walnut

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 18:17:20 +0200



"jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com> wrote to herb.lists.ibiblio.org:



> formulated for that individual.  Far too often, people use them till the 

> acute problem goes away, then stop taking everything till the imbalance 

> manifests again.  Frustrating.



I've found that my blends are popular even after the problems they came to me

for have all gone away. Perhaps people like them so much because I add taste

modifiers like thyme, hyssop or licorice root? Or because they make them feel so

much better.



> emphasis on clinical tests and standardized extracts, is only taking us 

> farther in this direction.  Almost everything the average person knows about 

> herbs comes from marketing.



Yes, and then you get a question like, "what's the best herb for this?", and you

say, because it's a difficult problem, that it depends. And they look at you

with real frustration... which is when I whip out my card and tell them to come

see me if they really want to get rid of their problem.



> ...uh-oh... I think I've started to rant... I better let you all go before I 

> get WAY off topic...



Lovely rant.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From lakshmi.kingcon.com Fri Dec 06 18:25:22 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] parasites was black walnut

From: "Michelle Morton-niyama" <lakshmi.kingcon.com>

Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:25:22 -0500



 The current trend in

> modern herbalism, led by the german/european "nutriceutical" companies and

> emphasis on clinical tests and standardized extracts, is only taking us

> farther in this direction.



yes- far from holistic living, i agree



i am interested in where you studied and where you teach- i like your

style...



michelle



From HerbalSW.aol.com Fri Dec 06 20:33:34 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] parasites was black walnut

From: HerbalSW.aol.com

Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:33:34 EST



"Look, Henriette, snotiness does no one any favors. "

T

please refrain from insults when you disagree with info on this list serve



Catherine M. Wood, LCSW, CADC, ADS

Eagle Spirit Healing Center

Where Your Spirit Learns To Soar

www.eaglespirithealingcenter.com



From Herbmednurse.aol.com Sat Dec 07 05:42:19 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] parasites was black walnut

From: Herbmednurse.aol.com

Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 22:42:19 EST



In a message dated 12/6/02 10:17:33 AM, hetta.saunalahti.fi writes:



<< I've found that my blends are popular even after the problems they came to 

me

for have all gone away. Perhaps people like them so much because I add taste

modifiers like thyme, hyssop or licorice root? Or because they make them feel 

so

much better. >>



maybe you could share some of these special blends??



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Sat Dec 07 10:03:00 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] parasites was black walnut

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 10:03:00 +0200



Herbmednurse.aol.com wrote to herb.lists.ibiblio.org:

> In a message dated 12/6/02 10:17:33 AM, hetta.saunalahti.fi writes:

> 

> << I've found that my blends are popular even after the problems they came to me

> for have all gone away. Perhaps people like them so much because I add taste

> modifiers like thyme, hyssop or licorice root? Or because they make them feel so

> much better. >>

> 

> maybe you could share some of these special blends??



See, they're based on the needs of my clients. As such, there's never two alike.

They're also based on what I have in my cupboard at any given time; some herbs I

run out of very quickly ("need to pick more of that next year" or "hmmm, have to

buy more"), some I have for a year or three before I have to restock.



I think the secret of tasty teas is, I know what the herbs taste like in tea,

and can adjust accordingly. Also, if I know there's a vile brew coming up, and I

can't add the top of the line taste modifier (that's licorice root), I tell them

they can sweeten their tea if they want to. After all, drinking sweetened herbal

tea is better than not drinking herbal tea at all.



The base of my teas is usually something bland, with more or less strong-tasting

herbs thrown in on top. I pick lots of mallows, epilobiums and Galiums, for

example. Also, most (but not all) people who come see an herbalist have "cool"

livers, and need yellowdock or berberis, so most of my clients get that. All the

rest is, hmmm, let's take this ... and this ... and this ... and a bit of this

one ...



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From dan.awherbals.com Fri Dec 06 19:41:09 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Changing the taste of your tinctures

From: Dan McDonley <dan.awherbals.com>

Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 09:41:09 -0800



Henriette Kress wrote



>I've found that my blends are popular even after the problems they came to me

>for have all gone away. Perhaps people like them so much because I add taste

>modifiers like thyme, hyssop or licorice root? Or because they make them feel so

>much better.

>  

>



That is something I would love to hear more about. I find a lot of the 

patient non-compliance issues I deal with are due to the taste. I of 

course love the taste of 95% alcohol tinctures right in my mouth, 

especially cayenne tincture, so I am just wierd i guess.



Anyone have any favorite ways of making it taste ok without increasing 

the volume too much?



Dan



From kriemhld.arctic.net Thu Dec 05 08:38:27 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Changing the taste of your tinctures

From: hecuba <kriemhld.arctic.net>

Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 21:38:27 -0900



At 09:41 AM 12/6/02 -0800, you wrote:

That is something I would love to hear more about. I find a lot of the 

patient non-compliance issues I deal with are due to the taste. I of course 

love the taste of 95% alcohol tinctures right in my mouth, especially 

cayenne tincture, so I am just wierd i guess.



>Anyone have any favorite ways of making it taste ok without increasing the 

>volume too much?

>

>Dan



Dan,



That's interesting that you actually like the taste of cayenne tincture.  I 

do too, but am used to it.



However, when it's appropriate, I like to add cayenne to things I make for 

other people to keep them away from the "if a little is good, more is 

better" mentality.  I usually ask how hot they like their food first, so I 

know roughly how much to use - enough to keep them from using too much, but 

not so much they won't use the tincture at all.  Then, to mellow it out, a 

little ginger and a teensy bit of orange and thyme.



Gudrun



From sorcy.kskbirkenfeld.de Sat Dec 07 00:46:40 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] Changing the taste of your tinctures

From: "Sorcy" <sorcy.kskbirkenfeld.de>

Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 23:46:40 +0100



> Anyone have any favorite ways of making it taste ok without increasing

> the volume too much?

-----------------

a tasty strongly flavored cup of tea, a favorite sip of juice to mix the

tincs in, or simply in a spoon of honey.  There's so many ways to catch'em

:)



Depends how 'vile' they are.  Cayenne (i love it too, I'm just wimpy about

it) would ruin any tea, so I go the shot-of-juice route to make it go down

smoother.  Sticky, sweet juice seems to work best (banana and such)



I usually tell newbies to 'listen' to their bodies responses by getting

familiar with new tastes one drop at the time.  Lick one drop carefully,

observe the reaction etc.  I mean, most people coming to herbs are inclined

enough to believe that there is more then 'just the plant' so getting in

touch with the power behind it helps.



Hope thats not too far out for the majority :)



Explaining WHY certain tastes (bitters) have certain results also helps them

to understand and therefore be more accepting, although I usually try to go

for most pleasent tasting herbs that would do the job.



GB, Sorcy



From ngbard.juno.com Sun Dec 08 08:09:40 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Changing the taste of your tinctures

From: Marcia V Grossbard <ngbard.juno.com>

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 01:09:40 -0500



> 

> Dan,

>... when it's appropriate, I like to add cayenne to things I 

> make for  other people to keep them away from the "if a little is good,

more 

> is  better" mentality.  I usually ask how hot they like their food 

> first, so I  know roughly how much to use - enough to keep them from

using too 

> much, but  not so much they won't use the tincture at all.  Then, to

mellow it 

> out, a  little ginger and a teensy bit of orange and thyme.

> 

> Gudrun



What would you use to counteract the taste of osha tincture? A smidge of

osha in my tincture mix is as ruinous to taste as cinnamon or anise is to

fragrance in my perfume hobby mixtures. I had hoped a smidge of wild

cherry ally a glycerite would help, but only somewhat.

Marcia



From multiflorum.hotmail.com Mon Dec 09 17:08:29 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Changing the taste of your tinctures

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 10:08:29 -0500



>What would you use to counteract the taste of osha tincture? A smidge of

>osha in my tincture mix is as ruinous to taste as cinnamon or anise is to

>fragrance in my perfume hobby mixtures. I had hoped a smidge of wild

>cherry ally a glycerite would help, but only somewhat.

>Marcia



Though I decidedly LOVE the flavor of Osha, I'm well aware it's a plant 

people either love or loathe the flavor of.  The ONLY formula I keep around 

pre-prepared (can something actually be "pre"-prepared?  well, you know what 

I mean) is what I call "Oshanasnea syrup" - a blend of equal parts Osha, 

Echinacea & Usnea tinctures in maple syrup (REAL maple syrup of course).  

Use about 30-60 drops combined tincture per tablespoon of syrup.  The Maple 

blends beautifully with the flavor of Osha, and you can even make a tasty & 

effective syrup by steeping dried Osha Root in Maple syrup over low heat for 

an hour or two.



So: Osha + Maple = yummy!



From hkobayas.students.uiuc.edu Fri Dec 06 22:25:44 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Parasites

From: hkobayas <hkobayas.students.uiuc.edu>

Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:25:44 -0600



Henriette,



Parasites are organisms that benefit at the expense of the host, while giving 

back nothing. If we really need "some of the parasites," those aren't 

parasites in a strict sense. Therefore, I am guessing you referred "parasites" 

as organisms that are normally considered to be parasites. Am I right on this? 

And whcih one? I heard about tapeworms, and I am not nitpicking here.



Thank you in advance.



Hideka



From granwell.surferz.net Fri Dec 06 22:34:08 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] Parasites

From: "Anne Granwell" <granwell.surferz.net>

Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:34:08 -0500



Hideka....



You have a misconception RE: " Parasites are organisms that benefit at the

expense of the host, while giving

> back nothing"



Look into "symbiotic parasitism."



Some parasitic relationships are beneficial.



(c)(c) from the desk of Anne Granwell

----- Original Message -----

From: "hkobayas" <hkobayas.students.uiuc.edu>

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 3:25 PM

Subject: [Herb] Parasites



> Henriette,

>

> Parasites are organisms that benefit at the expense of the host, while

giving

> back nothing. If we really need "some of the parasites," those aren't

> parasites in a strict sense. Therefore, I am guessing you referred

"parasites"

> as organisms that are normally considered to be parasites. Am I right on

this?

> And whcih one? I heard about tapeworms, and I am not nitpicking here.

>

> Thank you in advance.

>

> Hideka



From sorcy.kskbirkenfeld.de Sat Dec 07 00:58:09 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] Re: making them 'drink'

From: "Sorcy" <sorcy.kskbirkenfeld.de>

Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 23:58:09 +0100



Far too often, people use them till the

acute problem goes away, then stop taking everything till the imbalance

manifests again.  Frustrating.

------------

how about telling them to think of the tonics as a way of 'food' ?  If they

stop, they'll simply get 'hungry' again....



> modern herbalism, led by the german/european "nutriceutical" companies and

> emphasis on clinical tests and standardized extracts, is only taking us

farther in this direction.



mmm.... there's still plenty of those Germans around crawling about in the

ditches :)  At least in these here rural area :)  I usually find that they'd

look at extracts suspiciously and prefer the 'whole' plant.  If we can see

it, it works, right?  Maybe I'm around a different kind of people, but I

know very few Germans who ever took tincs, but almost everyone knows which

tea to go for when trouble arises....  course, that's all on a personal

basis, not the commercial aspect <sigh>  These new laws are changing almost

too fast to keep up with ....  Germany wise that means to-date, no herbal

preparation may claim medicinal benefits, contain more then 3 active

ingredients and only 1 indication.  Heck, most flowers have more then 3, so

much for that <growl>



GB, Sorcy



From sorcy.kskbirkenfeld.de Sat Dec 07 01:31:14 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] Re:  Black Walnut / parasite debate

From: "Sorcy" <sorcy.kskbirkenfeld.de>

Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 00:31:14 +0100



> ALL the old works say "good for digestive upset". NONE of them say "good

for parasites".

-------------

Just because it's 'old' doesn't mean it's accurate or we'd still be smearing

horse dung on open wounds.  Again, which old works?  From which country?

I honestly don't mean to question your statement as such, I want to verify

it for myself

(I never was one to take anyone's word for gospel)



I simply wanted some sources for your statement that it DOESN"T work, ever,

no way.  Since none is forthcoming I don't really feel continuing what

appears to have become a rather hostile debate or dragging up persons who

have used it successfully as 'proof'.  And if had LAB test proof on all

cases, I didn't

need to ask you for backup to look into your opinion, I'd know they were

right (besides, not everyone has

access or the means to get a lab test, or they probably wouldn't wonder

about herbs in the first place, and if they say it worked for them I'm not

about to tell them they imagined it, more power to them!).



Too bad, I like to look at different angles, but, is it just me or does this

topic appear to be getting surprisingly

agressive for a study environment??



Sorcy Summerwinds



From elementalclay.webtv.net Mon Dec 09 20:34:12 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Re:  Black Walnut / parasite debate

From: elementalclay.webtv.net (Roxanne Brown)

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 12:34:12 -0600 (CST)



Sorcy,

  I did some digging around and found evidence that native americans and

pioneers used black walnut for internal parasites and ringworm.  I

didn't keep any of what I found because I was just searching for my own

curiosity..

  One thing that I noted was in some cases the different uses were from

different parts of the country (USA).

  Another thing is that some used the root rather than the hull and some

used the whole nut before the internal nut began to fully formed and

hardened.  Others used black walnut alone and yet other mixed it with

wormwood or tansy.  

  All the old time recipes and uses I found were from before 1900.

  I find this debate very interesting and use all debates as a base for

my own research.

Roxanne

  



http://www.elementalgallery.com

Look not for Wealth in the Glitter of Gold

      But in your Grandmother's Smile



From hkobayas.students.uiuc.edu Sun Dec 08 04:15:07 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Definition on parasitism

From: hkobayas <hkobayas.students.uiuc.edu>

Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 20:15:07 -0600



Anne,



This is something not too many people know. Symbiosis was originally defined 

by DeBary, the father of Plant pathology (I have a background in plant 

pathology).



"Symbiosis means literally living together. Coined in 1876 by DeBary, to 

describe two species of organisms that lived together, with no implication 

regarding the length or outcome of the association. So symbiosis as originally 

conceived covered a range of intimate interactions between organisms-the most 

common ones being mutualism, commensalism and parasitism. So symbiosis was an 

overarching term, there has been a move to restrict symbiosis to a particular 

sort of association, where both partners are seen to benefit, but most modern 

literature has now returned to using symbiosis as an umbrella term for 

organisms that live together. Using this concept then <snip>



Parasitism. Classical definition - intimate relationship between two organisms 

in which one (the parasite) lives on, off or at the expense of the other 

(host). This implies that one of the partners benefits, the other is harmed. 

One problem with this simple definition is that harm is a very difficult thing 

to quantify, the same problem applies to the definition of mutualism and 

commensalism. In animal associations it is often assumed that one organism is 

benefiting or not without any real evidence."



So "symbiotic paratisism" is an oxymoron in a strict sense (the exact same 

phrase I used in the last message). This is just info. on "misconception."



<Hideka....



You have a misconception



RE: " Parasites are organisms that benefit at the expense of the host, while 

giving back nothing"



Look into "symbiotic parasitism."



Some parasitic relationships are beneficial.>



From drfriedli.adelphia.net Sun Dec 08 07:13:03 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] menthol

From: "Dr. Georges-Louis Friedli" <drfriedli.adelphia.net>

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 00:13:03 -0500



From: "TeraGram" <teragram.silcom.com>

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] parasites was black walnut

Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:08:34 -0800

Reply-To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org



> And, no matter what, babies can't handle menthol.



>>As you said to me: If you say so.



>>Look, Henriette, snotiness does no one any favors.  I have extensively

researched this topic since your first proclamation that menthol is no good

for babies.  To the contrary I have found example after example of why mint

teas are some of the easiest and most effective remedies for quite a few

things infants can face and much less toxic than the "allopathic" remedies

>>so many companies try to foist on our kids.



You can find my research on this topic at:

http://www.friedli.com/research/research.html

click on MSc

click on Mint



You can also read the whole research thesis at that site.



For those who might find the toxicological and biochemical terms confusing,

I am going to simplify the results here.



As we all know, the major peppermint types are M. pulegium, M. piperita and

M. aquatica.



The essential oil composition in each of these vary. They also vary

depending on location, climatic conditions etc.



Generally these are the accepted main volatile oil composition of peppermint

oil:

menthol, menthone, pulegone, limonene, cineole, isomenthone, menthylacetate,

neomenthol.



NO RESEARCH STUDY HAS EVER BEEN DIRECTLY MADE ON NEWBORNS, INFANTS, AND

CHILDREN. IT IS TOTALLY NON-ETHICAL.



So, as you can see the research was carried out on rats and then

extrapolated to humans. I know a lot of herbalists are against research data

from animals. Well, I am not against the data. I am against the ethical

issues. I could not see myself carrying out toxicological tests on animals,

so I had to quit scientific research.



Peppermint oil is not safe for babies, but it is not because of menthol.

Pulegone in peppermint oil is metabolized by P450IIB in the liver to

menthofuran which causes hepatocellular necrosis. Menthofuran is also

changed in the liver to delta-ketoaldehyde which is the ultimate chemically

reactive metabolite.



It was  proposed that the delta-ketoaldehyde formed from menthofuran

contributed to the toxicity mediated by pulegone in two ways:

1. the delta-ketoaldehyde can covalently bind to macromolecules resulting in

toxicity,

2. it acts as a precursor in the formation of a putative ultimate toxic

metabolite p.cresol.



From my research, I found out that menthol and limonene oxide are highly

potent inducers of P450IIB1. This means that they will stimulate the

detoxication of other chemicals. So menthol is safe.

That was my experience as a scientist.



From my experience as a herbalist, I have successfully used menthol in

combination with other essential oils to cure babies who were classified as

asthmatics. I stopped their albuterol treatment and used essential oils

instead. Menthol was the active ingredient. These are newborns and infants.

Some of them are now 6 years  and others 5 year old at this present moment.

None of them is asthmatic. They are all very healthy with no health

concerns.



GALLBLADDER.

The gallbladder appears 27 - 30 after conception. During the fourth week,

the liver, the gallbladder and the biliary duct system arise as a bud from

the foregut. The liver grows rapidly and soon fills most of the abdominal

cavity. Hemopoiesis(formation and development of blood cells) begins during

the sixth week; this activity is mainly responsible for the relatively large

size of the liver during the second month. By nine weeks the liver

represents about 10% of the total weight of the fetus.

The small caudal portion of the hepatic diverticulum expands to form the

GALLBLADDER. The stalk connecting the hepatic and cystic ducts to the

duodenum becomes the Bile duct.



So before the baby is born, he or she has a working (functional)

gallbladder.



One in every 10,000 to 20,000 infants may develop biliary atresia. An

ultrasound test may detect an absent ot tiny gallbladder.



For the first 10 - 15 days after birth, a newborn has a relative lack of

stomach acid. A child does not have adult values of stomach acidity (pH)

until two years of age. This factor may lead to increased absorption of

certain substances depending on their pH and pKa values. Furthermore,

stomach emptying in the newborn is irregular, unpredictable, and prolonged,

reaching adult values at about six to eight months of age. The slower

emptying time leads to increased absorption of various medications, herbs

etc because of increased contact time with the GI tract. This does not mean

that most of the enzymatic digestion and absorption is carried out in the

stomach. That function is naturally carried out in the small intestines. The

stomach factor is a time factor.



*NOTE: The supervisors on that research project are Prof. Walker, who was at

the time the Chairman of the World Health Committee on Food Additives. Dr.

Ioannides is a world leader in liver metabolizing enzymes.



Dr. Georges-Louis Friedli, PgDip., MSc., CHt., RH., RB., Ph.D.

Herbalist, Scientist & Hypnotherapist



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Sun Dec 08 10:28:04 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] menthol

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 10:28:04 +0200



"Dr. Georges-Louis Friedli" <drfriedli.adelphia.net> wrote:



> As we all know, the major peppermint types are M. pulegium, M. piperita and

> M. aquatica.



Do you mean major Mentha types? Anything else doesn't make sense - those three

are as disparate as any Mentha species can be.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From Juliesjames.aol.com Sun Dec 08 16:33:07 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] menthol

From: Juliesjames.aol.com

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 09:33:07 EST



In a message dated 12/7/02 9:13:20 PM, drfriedli.adelphia.net writes:



>As we all know, the major peppermint types are M. pulegium, M. piperita

>and

>M. aquatica.



Umm...No, we dont all know that. Am I missing something???



Pennyroyal, Peppermint, Water Mint. 



Julie James



From drfriedli.adelphia.net Sun Dec 08 21:31:52 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] menthol

From: "Dr. Georges-Louis Friedli" <drfriedli.adelphia.net>

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:31:52 -0500



> Message: 6

> From: "Anne Granwell" <granwell.surferz.net>

> To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

> Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 09:27:51 -0500

> Subject: [Herb] Toxicology Module 1st installed Wednesday Nov 15, 2000

> Reply-To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

>

> Respiratory Distress in Infants Exposed to Menthol

>

>  http://goodhealth.freeservers.com/MentholToxicology.htm

>

> (c)(c) from the desk of Anne Granwell

>



That report was about ingestion of pure menthol. I did not mean feeding

babies with essential oils. Essential oils are highly concentrated and very

potent and so should be used as in aromatherapy or inhalation.



Also, you should note that everything can be toxic if the wrong dosage is

used. I think you have heard of people drowning in water. Is water toxic?

For the quantities we drink, no it is not toxic, but when drown in it, yes

you can die.



The information on the treatment of menthol overdose at the site you

mentioned was not available.



6th paragraph:

The statement "Looking at the ingredients of the toothpaste a positive

reaction was seen with peppermint oil and menthol".  I do not understand how

looking at the ingredients can cause a positive reaction. Peppermint oil is

not the same as menthol. So which one caused the allergic reaction? That was

not a good designed research.



7th paragraph:

Another inconclusive statement " Symptoms persisted for one of more days in

many infants and was THOUHGHT to be due to the inhalation of menthol". Why

should their thoughts be proof of truth?



8th paragraph:

Is VapoRub just menthol? Is mucus menthol? Does not make sense.



9th paragraph:

I have used Olbas oil successfully with infants with no problems whatsoever.

I always have some around the house and my clinic. I have used Olbas for

more than 20 years. The paragraph was saying that the 13-year old boy

inhaled more than the recommended dosage. So why is it the fault of olbas?

"It was THOUGHT that menthol in the preparation was responsible for the

symptoms".



Dr. Georges-Louis Friedli, PgDip., MSc., CHt., R.H., RB., Ph.D.

Herbalist, Scientist & Hypnotherapist



From granwell.surferz.net Sun Dec 08 22:57:06 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] menthol

From: "Anne Granwell" <granwell.surferz.net>

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 15:57:06 -0500



Please take no offense to this response. Sometimes my blunt style offends

unintentially (I am a 'New Yorker', so please make allowances if I sound

other than completely respectful of all parties concerned).

With all due respect, After this post on the topic Menthol & Infants the

discussion is closed as far as I'm concerned. There is no changing my mind

on this topic.

#1. There are many more references I came across substantiating that menthol

and/or mint  is contra-indicated in treating infants internally &

externally. I do not have the time nor the inclination to post any other

sources RE: the aforementioned topic. I am a good researcher .... I say this

without bragging, it is simply part of my character & an ability acquired

through years employed as a bill collector, working in libraries and as a

paralegal.

#2. Especially and most particularily when considering administering herbs

to an infant .... if there is any reason to doubt if the herb can be used

safely Do Not Use The Herb.

#3. If mint is such a harmless, efficacious and useful  herb for infants how

come I can't find one recommendation for it's use RE: infants in Juliette de

Bairacli Levy's Herbal Remedy guide for Infants & Children? My trust and

belief in de Bairacli Levy is unshakeable.

#4. After reading 100's of posts from Henriette Kress on the safe and

effective use of herbs, my opinion is she knows what she's talking about and

her advice is correct. There is not a chance that I will not accept

Henriette's knowledge as sound on the menthol/infant subject. One of the

reasons "my money is on" Henriette is that she is clearly, foremost &

utmost, a teacher with an open mind. Her main interest in herbs is herbs not

getting rich off of them, and, not impressing the world with her

credentials. Henriette is a teacher who works everyday to learn as well as

openly share her knowledge. I am awed at the amount of effort & time

Henriette Kress freely gives to further the knowledge of herbs & their safe

use.



period.



End of discussion as far as I'm concerned.



Respectfully & Sincerely submitted,



(c)(c) from the desk of Anne Granwell



----- Original Message -----

From: "Dr. Georges-Louis Friedli" <drfriedli.adelphia.net>

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 2:31 PM

Subject: [Herb] menthol



> > Message: 6

> > From: "Anne Granwell" <granwell.surferz.net>

> > To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

> > Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 09:27:51 -0500

> > Subject: [Herb] Toxicology Module 1st installed Wednesday Nov 15, 2000

> > Reply-To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

> >

> > Respiratory Distress in Infants Exposed to Menthol

> >

> >  http://goodhealth.freeservers.com/MentholToxicology.htm

> >

> > (c)(c) from the desk of Anne Granwell

> >

>

> That report was about ingestion of pure menthol. I did not mean feeding

> babies with essential oils. Essential oils are highly concentrated and

very

> potent and so should be used as in aromatherapy or inhalation.

>

> Also, you should note that everything can be toxic if the wrong dosage is

> used. I think you have heard of people drowning in water. Is water toxic?

> For the quantities we drink, no it is not toxic, but when drown in it, yes

> you can die.

>

> The information on the treatment of menthol overdose at the site you

> mentioned was not available.

>

>

> 6th paragraph:

> The statement "Looking at the ingredients of the toothpaste a positive

> reaction was seen with peppermint oil and menthol".  I do not understand

how

> looking at the ingredients can cause a positive reaction. Peppermint oil

is

> not the same as menthol. So which one caused the allergic reaction? That

was

> not a good designed research.

>

> 7th paragraph:

> Another inconclusive statement " Symptoms persisted for one of more days

in

> many infants and was THOUHGHT to be due to the inhalation of menthol". Why

> should their thoughts be proof of truth?

>

> 8th paragraph:

> Is VapoRub just menthol? Is mucus menthol? Does not make sense.

>

> 9th paragraph:

> I have used Olbas oil successfully with infants with no problems

whatsoever.

> I always have some around the house and my clinic. I have used Olbas for

> more than 20 years. The paragraph was saying that the 13-year old boy

> inhaled more than the recommended dosage. So why is it the fault of olbas?

> "It was THOUGHT that menthol in the preparation was responsible for the

> symptoms".

>

> Dr. Georges-Louis Friedli, PgDip., MSc., CHt., R.H., RB., Ph.D.

> Herbalist, Scientist & Hypnotherapist



From drfriedli.adelphia.net Sun Dec 08 22:51:10 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] menthol

From: "Dr. Georges-Louis Friedli" <drfriedli.adelphia.net>

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 15:51:10 -0500



> Umm...No, we dont all know that. Am I missing something???

>

> Pennyroyal, Peppermint, Water Mint.

>

>

> Julie James



Sorry, what I meant was the biogenetic arrangement for the peppermint oil

constituents of various species of Mentha. It is basically a phytochemistry

classification for species which can be used to produce peppermint oil.



For example: Japanese peppermint oil is derived from Mentha canadensis. Some

Indian peppermint oil is derived from Mentha arvensis. European, American

and Brazilian peppermint oil are mostly derived from Mentha piperita.



The classification of peppermint type oils is based on the type of cyclic

monoterpenoids.



This is not a botanical classification.



Dr. Georges-Louis Friedli, PgDip., MSc., CHt., R.H., RB., Ph.D.

Herbalist, Scientist & Hypnotherapist



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Mon Dec 09 08:17:34 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] menthol

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 08:17:34 +0200



"Dr. Georges-Louis Friedli" <drfriedli.adelphia.net> wrote:



> For example: Japanese peppermint oil is derived from Mentha canadensis. Some

> Indian peppermint oil is derived from Mentha arvensis. European, American

> and Brazilian peppermint oil are mostly derived from Mentha piperita.



It helps to be more precise: if you say "Mentha arvensis" without adding the

"var. piperascens" people are just going to look at you with their jaws on their

knees. Mentha arvensis smells vile and tastes about the same. Unless, of course,

you run across some which tastes nice - and in this case, "run across" is an

exact term: I've found a patch in the wild that smells and tastes of clary sage

- exquisite. Some of it is now in my garden.



AFAIK, it's Mentha arvensis var. piperascens which yields Japanese peppermint

oil, and that oil contains 80 % (some say over 95 %) menthol.



Again AFAIK, all other peppermint oil comes from Mentha x piperita. The British

cultivar 'Mitcham' is the best of the lot; it's simply _loaded_ with menthol.



To me, pennyroyal is anything _but_ a peppermint plant. It's much on a par with

M. arvensis or M. suaveolens - yech. Unless you know of a peppermint-like

cultivar of it, like the Mentha arvensis one?



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From granwell.surferz.net Sun Dec 08 16:27:51 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] Toxicology Module 1st installed Wednesday Nov 15, 2000

From: "Anne Granwell" <granwell.surferz.net>

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 09:27:51 -0500



Respiratory Distress in Infants Exposed to Menthol



 http://goodhealth.freeservers.com/MentholToxicology.htm



(c)(c) from the desk of Anne Granwell



From HerbalSW.aol.com Sun Dec 08 17:52:39 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Toxicology Module 1st installed Wednesday Nov 15, 2000

From: HerbalSW.aol.com

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 10:52:39 EST



Is this the same Anne as on Naherbs?

How cool is that?

Catherine



Catherine M. Wood, LCSW, CADC, ADS

Eagle Spirit Healing Center

Where Your Spirit Learns To Soar

www.eaglespirithealingcenter.com



From lakshmi.kingcon.com Sun Dec 08 17:43:51 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] babys digestion

From: "Michelle Morton-niyama" <lakshmi.kingcon.com>

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 10:43:51 -0500



> You know the baby gut is more mature

>when the feces begin to take on more shape and smell.  Littlest one's

>feces

>are sweet smelling and soft



Aliceann- I agree that herbs are effective through mothers milk...sometimes

a teaspoon of chamomile works great straight, though(like during teething)



On the poop issue- those soft sweet smelling poops are breast milk poops-

start feeding regular food and they change to the formed, more "fragrant"

ones...

Im sure formula fed babies have more odorous ones right from the start(i

havent been around many) the poor little beings- formula should be

illegal...

but this is an herb list- sorry.



Michelle



From jclarke1.mn.rr.com Sun Dec 08 17:50:33 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] babys digestion

From: "Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1.mn.rr.com>

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 09:50:33 -0600



Michelle is right - the gut flora take on RADICAL changes any time you

introduce something other than breastmilk. This accounts, in part, for the

different smell. And of course, because breastmilk so easily digested,

there's very little bulk to the stool. Formula fed babies' stools are NOT

sweet smelling, and depending on how well their bodies can tolerate the cow

or soy milk, they're often not liquidy or soft. And Michelle, I tend to

agree with you WRT formula. Not illegal, because there are some situations

where it's warranted, but perhaps a controlled substance like

pharmaceuticals, available only through a prescription.



Kerry



> You know the baby gut is more mature

>when the feces begin to take on more shape and smell.  Littlest one's

>feces

>are sweet smelling and soft



On the poop issue- those soft sweet smelling poops are breast milk poops-

start feeding regular food and they change to the formed, more "fragrant"

ones...

Im sure formula fed babies have more odorous ones right from the start(i

havent been around many) the poor little beings- formula should be

illegal...

but this is an herb list- sorry.



Michelle



From carlton.midrivers.com Sun Dec 08 21:12:23 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] babys digestion

From: "Aliceann or Scott" <carlton.midrivers.com>

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 12:12:23 -0700 (Mountain Standard Time)



 


 


-------Original Message-------





 


Michelle is right - the gut flora take on RADICAL changes any time you


introduce something other than breastmilk. This accounts, in part, for the


different smell. And of course, because breastmilk so easily digested,


there's very little bulk to the stool. Formula fed babies' stools are NOT


sweet smelling, and depending on how well their bodies can tolerate the cow


or soy milk, they're often not liquidy or soft. 





*We did this soy milk thing yesterday, but as far as other formulas are

concerned, some of the change is related to the bigger quantities ingested

through a bottle...same for bottle fed livestock.  We are SO proud when the

baby eats a lot even though tiny tummies are designed for small amounts at a

time. 





If too much formula goes through at once it sets up an Ama condition where

instead of digestion you have a breeding mass of the bad kinds of bacteria

or an overgrowth of good bacteria..leading to thrush, gastritis, and other

ills.  In the "old days" people made up their own formulas with fresh cows

milk, sweetener, even ( horrors!) egg yolk.  At first it was usually milk

and corn sweetener or molasses ( a nice laxative if meconium hasn't passed

completely and colostrum isn't available).  So, in the absence of breast

milk which is ideal....some formulas can be pretty good and not produce

digestive problems or bad smells.  When in doubt, make up your own formula

if breast milk isn't available.  I'll best a lot of doolas and midwives are

wise in this tradition.





Blessings from a grandmother and shepherd,


AA








 





 


 



From carlton.midrivers.com Sun Dec 08 20:58:49 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] babys digestion

From: "Aliceann or Scott" <carlton.midrivers.com>

Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 11:58:49 -0700 (Mountain Standard Time)



 


 





 


Aliceann- I agree that herbs are effective through mothers milk...sometimes


a teaspoon of chamomile works great straight, though(like during teething)





*Sure Michelle, I agree as long as it's a teaspoonful of infused herb with

4x the dilution (or more) than given to an adult.  Likewise for frail elders

  The primary source of comfort IS comfort and good nutrition, not add-ons.





One of the dilemmas we seem to have is an intolerance of discomfort....from

the getgo.  The body, mind and emotions can't develop tolerance for (and

wisdom about) discomfort which is a signal for needed adaptation, avoidance

of source, or change if those signals never arise to a point of awareness.  

Mosquito bites itch, scrapes burn, too much or wrong food makes for tummy

aches, too much TV and loud music makes for headaches and snarly

dispositions.....etc.   





So, we run to dose away everything rather than learning and allowing

imbalances to be corrected by the body first, then treat when the imbalance

doesn't stabilize or becomes pathological.  Not much beats a frozen

washcloth for teething (water has to be as pure and fresh as possible and

fabric softener flavoring is no help on the washcloth).





It seems to me whether we turn to herbal or allopathic or "alternative"

resources the goal in current society is to make the bad stuff go away

rather than to learn about it, accept it, and honor the body's ability to

put much right all on its own.





 


On the poop issue- those soft sweet smelling poops are breast milk poops-


start feeding regular food and they change to the formed, more "fragrant"


ones...





*Yes indeed....and as food becomes more complex and the physiology responds.

. one learns to examine poop carefully as it is a signal of health and

pathology.  Too much gas with dry stools....Vata needs to be decreased. Too

much burning or diarrhea...Pitta needs to be decreased. Big, heavy, pale

mucous covered stools, Kapha needs to be decreased. Most balancing is

accomplished through diet and lifestyle. 





Blessings,


AA








 





 


 





 


. 



From plantpeople.triton.net Mon Dec 09 09:39:01 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] babies and mint

From: Joyce Wardwell <plantpeople.triton.net>

Date: Mon,  9 Dec 2002 02:39:01 -0500 (EST)



To throw in another perspective....

a few pieces of folklore I learned from two granny midwives (who had never met each other as far as I know):

1. Generally, herbs are best adminstered through breast milk

2. If you are going to give YOUR baby an herb tea, hold the weak tea in your mouth for a few minutes first.  Your saliva will help the baby digest the tea, and as far as germ exposure..... well, you are kissing and cuddling your baby, yes?

3.If you give the baby an herb directly, smell the diaper over the next day.  If you smell the herb you gave that particular baby an herb or an amount its digestion could not handle - back off.

4. When you finally do start giving your babies finger foods - don't worry if there is a little dirt on it.  Indeed, don't worry much if your baby starts to eat some dirt now and then as they grow.  After the first really "dirty" diaper, pay attention and you will often notice an improvement in subsequent digestion and stool formation.



in my experience, peppermint is just too strong for babies... they don't even like it and will make grimaces when they come into contact with it... usually a good clue.... and it leaves the stool smelling like mint.  However, of the mint family - catnip or weak spearmint are a much better choice, when necessary. 



Not that I would first look to using mints on a baby to begin with....

Peace

JoyceW   



Every great Oak Tree, was once just a nut, that stood its ground



From jclarke1.mn.rr.com Mon Dec 09 15:27:01 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] babies and mint

From: "Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1.mn.rr.com>

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 07:27:01 -0600



I highly advise AGAINST doing this. Kissing and cuddling baby, yes. Sharing

your saliva with baby, NO!! New research is showing that the transfer of

saliva from mom to baby is what CAUSES dental decay. If the mom as tooth

decay, then she also is infected with the Strep Mutans bacteria. The number

one tooth decay preventative is to try to AVOID transferring the bacteria

into baby's mouth if at all possible. Once the child reaches about age

three, the mouth is fully populated and cannot get the infection (although

any time a new tooth erupts, there is a slight chance, for a short time, of

becoming infected). Just in the last few years, dentists in the US are

realizing the REAL cause of tooth decay, although the "no swapping saliva

with baby" campaign has been active in Europe for decades.



Kerry



-----Original Message-----

2. If you are going to give YOUR baby an herb tea, hold the weak tea in your

mouth for a few minutes first.  Your saliva will help the baby digest the

tea, and as far as germ exposure..... well, you are kissing and cuddling

your baby, yes?



From mterry.snet.net Mon Dec 09 15:37:41 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] babies and mint

From: May Terry <mterry.snet.net>

Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 08:37:41 -0500



Kerry & Jack wrote:



> I highly advise AGAINST doing this. Kissing and cuddling baby, yes. Sharing

> your saliva with baby, NO!! New research is showing that the transfer of

> saliva from mom to baby is what CAUSES dental decay. If the mom as tooth

> decay, then she also is infected with the Strep Mutans bacteria. The number

> one tooth decay preventative is to try to AVOID transferring the bacteria

> into baby's mouth if at all possible. Once the child reaches about age

> three, the mouth is fully populated and cannot get the infection (although

> any time a new tooth erupts, there is a slight chance, for a short time, of

> becoming infected). Just in the last few years, dentists in the US are

> realizing the REAL cause of tooth decay, although the "no swapping saliva

> with baby" campaign has been active in Europe for decades.



But my dentist says you give the baby the bacteria anyway, just by kissing...?



May

--

The time is always right to do what is right.  ---Martin Luther King, Jr.



From jclarke1.mn.rr.com Mon Dec 09 15:41:04 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] babies and mint

From: "Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1.mn.rr.com>

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 07:41:04 -0600



As long as it's not a wet or open mouth kiss, it's unlikely that you're

transferring the bacteria.



Kerry



-----Original Message-----

Just in the last few years, dentists in the US are

> realizing the REAL cause of tooth decay, although the "no swapping saliva

> with baby" campaign has been active in Europe for decades.



But my dentist says you give the baby the bacteria anyway, just by

kissing...?



May



From miriam_k.netvision.net.il Mon Dec 09 17:25:11 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: RE: [Herb] babies and mint

From: Miriam Kresh <miriam_k.netvision.net.il>

Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 17:25:11 +0200



Kerry, I must protest... how can anybody avoid spreading a little saliva 

around while kissing (babies or anyone else)? Are we to become gingerly 

about smooching up our little ones? I agree that holding food or drink in 

the mouth before giving it to the baby is not a good idea (not to mention, 

er, distasteful), but how many people actually do this, especially 

hygiene-conscious Americans or indeed Western people in general? In my life 

and travels I've only seen this in one family where the mother had some 

theory about pre-chewing the food for her infant (and her kids have 

permanent runny noses, impetigo, lice, tsuris; not a great example). Sounds 

as if all our dental problems started right at infancy with Mom's Strep 

Mutans during an enthusiastic Love-Baby session... *twinkle*.



Miriam

a doulah who by the way advises her birth clients to take echinacea 

tincture as long as they're in hospital to protect their nursing babies 

from nursery infections.



At 07:27 09/12/02 -0600, you wrote:

>The number

>one tooth decay preventative is to try to AVOID transferring the bacteria

>into baby's mouth if at all possible. Once the child reaches about age

>three, the mouth is fully populated and cannot get the infection (although

>any time a new tooth erupts, there is a slight chance, for a short time, of

>becoming infected). Just in the last few years, dentists in the US are

>realizing the REAL cause of tooth decay, although the "no swapping saliva

>with baby" campaign has been active in Europe for decades.

>

>Kerry



From jclarke1.mn.rr.com Mon Dec 09 17:28:24 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] babies and mint

From: "Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1.mn.rr.com>

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 09:28:24 -0600



I'm not saying don't kiss your babies. I'm saying try to avoid transferring

your saliva into baby's mouth if at all possible. It's a precautionary

measure against tooth decay, and I think every parent should be made aware

of it. No, most Western moms don't prechew babies food, but it is common to

share spoons - another way of transferring the bacteria. I balked about this

when a Finnish mom told me this exact same thing 5 years ago. Do some

research, I think you might be surprised at what you learn about dental

caries and how it's transferred and how it's prevented. I know I was.



Also, the S. Mutans bacteria cannot be transferred to baby at infancy, but

only once the first tooth has erupted.



Kerry



-----Original Message-----

From: herb-admin.lists.ibiblio.org



Kerry, I must protest... how can anybody avoid spreading a little saliva

around while kissing (babies or anyone else)? Are we to become gingerly

about smooching up our little ones? I agree that holding food or drink in

the mouth before giving it to the baby is not a good idea (not to mention,

er, distasteful), but how many people actually do this, especially

hygiene-conscious Americans or indeed Western people in general? In my life

and travels I've only seen this in one family where the mother had some

theory about pre-chewing the food for her infant (and her kids have

permanent runny noses, impetigo, lice, tsuris; not a great example). Sounds

as if all our dental problems started right at infancy with Mom's Strep

Mutans during an enthusiastic Love-Baby session... *twinkle*.



Miriam

a doulah who by the way advises her birth clients to take echinacea

tincture as long as they're in hospital to protect their nursing babies

from nursery infections.



At 07:27 09/12/02 -0600, you wrote:

>The number

>one tooth decay preventative is to try to AVOID transferring the bacteria

>into baby's mouth if at all possible. Once the child reaches about age

>three, the mouth is fully populated and cannot get the infection (although

>any time a new tooth erupts, there is a slight chance, for a short time, of

>becoming infected). Just in the last few years, dentists in the US are

>realizing the REAL cause of tooth decay, although the "no swapping saliva

>with baby" campaign has been active in Europe for decades.

>

>Kerry



From multiflorum.hotmail.com Mon Dec 09 17:43:22 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: RE: [Herb] babies and mint

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 10:43:22 -0500



>I'm saying try to avoid transferring your saliva into baby's mouth if at 

>all possible.



>I agree that holding food or drink in

>the mouth before giving it to the baby is not a good idea (not to mention,

>er, distasteful), but how many people actually do this, especially

>hygiene-conscious Americans or indeed Western people in general?



Goodness, perhaps I'm inserting zoo-ology into herbalism here, but the 

greater percentage of the animal kingdom seems to do quite well sharing 

masticated food.  It seems like everyday that goes by adds a distance to the 

intimacy of the parent-child relationship.  While certainly you wouldn't 

want to do so with a cold sore, I can't imagine that holding tea in one's 

mouth could prove hazardous to one's child.  Certainly, this will lead to 

exposure, but lets not forget, -immunity is built on exposure-.  Sterility 

probably bears as many risks.



> >The number

> >one tooth decay preventative is to try to AVOID transferring the bacteria

> >into baby's mouth if at all possible.



> >realizing the REAL cause of tooth decay, although the "no swapping saliva

> >with baby" campaign has been active in Europe for decades.

> >

> >Kerry



From jclarke1.mn.rr.com Mon Dec 09 18:55:36 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] babies and mint

From: "Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1.mn.rr.com>

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:55:36 -0600



As far as I know, people don't develop a resistance or immunity to tooth

decay. The fact is, trying to do what you can to avoid introducing your

saliva into your baby/young child's mouth is the single most effective

preventative for the child to NEVER get tooth decay for the rest of his/her

life. If the S. mutans bacteria is not populated in the child's mouth before

about age three, it never will be. Barring some sort of physical condition

that erodes enamel, a person WILL NOT get tooth decay if the S. mutans

bacteria is not present in their mouth. IMO, it's certainly worth the

effort.



I realize this it totally off-topic, so if anyone wishes to discuss it with

me further, they're welcome to email me offlist.



Kerry



-----Original Message-----

Goodness, perhaps I'm inserting zoo-ology into herbalism here, but the

greater percentage of the animal kingdom seems to do quite well sharing

masticated food.  It seems like everyday that goes by adds a distance to the

intimacy of the parent-child relationship.  While certainly you wouldn't

want to do so with a cold sore, I can't imagine that holding tea in one's

mouth could prove hazardous to one's child.  Certainly, this will lead to

exposure, but lets not forget, -immunity is built on exposure-.  Sterility

probably bears as many risks.



> >The number

> >one tooth decay preventative is to try to AVOID transferring the bacteria

> >into baby's mouth if at all possible.



> >realizing the REAL cause of tooth decay, although the "no swapping saliva

> >with baby" campaign has been active in Europe for decades.

> >

> >Kerry



From carlton.midrivers.com Tue Dec 10 04:32:56 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] babies and mint

From: "Aliceann or Scott" <carlton.midrivers.com>

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 19:32:56 -0700 (Mountain Standard Time)



 


 


-------Original Message-------


 


Subject: RE: [Herb] babies and mint


 


As far as I know, people don't develop a resistance or immunity to tooth


decay. The fact is, trying to do what you can to avoid introducing your


saliva into your baby/young child's mouth is the single most effective


preventative for the child to NEVER get tooth decay for the rest of his/her


life. If the S. mutans bacteria is not populated in the child's mouth before


about age three, it never will be. Barring some sort of physical condition


that erodes enamel, a person WILL NOT get tooth decay if the S. mutans


bacteria is not present in their mouth. IMO, it's certainly worth the


effort.


 


I realize this it totally off-topic, so if anyone wishes to discuss it with


me further, they're welcome to email me offlist.


 


Kerry





It's not off topic from my point of view Kerry.  It's more of the same

thread of sanitizing life for fear of bad things happening.  Pre-masticating

food is still a common practice in many parts of the world for elders as

well as for children.  Pre-chewing kava kava (by virgins of course) is the

traditional way of preparing ceremonial kava kava...spit and all!  No one

will develop caries if the mouth is healthy, the enamel is healthy, and the

gums are healthy....spit or no spit.  Some of us have had lifelong tooth

problems due to metabolic imbalances, poor mineral absorption, etc.  These

are not due to a specific bacteria but to a weakness in tooth development

and gum health....as well as circulation.


 


While this is not the sole means of feeding an infant who is otherwise

healthy.....it is an option.  Now there can be risks of course given our

stupid way of living and caring for ourselves, rampant Hepatitis etc, etc...

. but the point Joyce made was entirely consistent with traditional health.

the mouth will neutralize and prepare infusions as part of mixing with

saliva...safer for a baby if that is the way to dose it.  Repugnant to some,

but don't throw away the concept...it is a part of many species' nurturing

and health.  Don't you think the same bacteria is abundant in other species?

 Do they infest their young with caries due to a specific bacteria?  Last

time I looked at a part wolf's fangs and chompers they were pearly white and

thriving!


 


The rest of Joyce's comments were, as usual, absolutely elegant for their

wisdom.


 


FWIW


Aliceann


 





 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 



From leppihalme.quartal.com Tue Dec 10 09:50:04 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] babies and mint

From: "Leppihalme, Miikkali" <leppihalme.quartal.com>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:50:04 +0200



Aliceann:

> Pre-chewing kava kava (by virgins of course) is the

> traditional way of preparing ceremonial kava kava...spit and 

> all!  No one will develop caries



Do they give the kava kava to children under three years old?



Miikkali



From carlton.midrivers.com Tue Dec 10 14:48:42 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] babies and mint

From: "Aliceann or Scott" <carlton.midrivers.com>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 05:48:42 -0700 (Mountain Standard Time)



 


 


-------Original Message-------


 





 


Do they give the kava kava to children under three years old?





Don't know.  Perhaps someone who has lived in that part of the world can

respond (without getting into the whole kava kava toxin thing?).  The

comment was made with a bit of sardonic humor Mikkhali.....sorry if it

soared right past.  Now....pre-chewing dried fish, stringy vegetables, roots

 etc...that's more likely. 





AA


 





. 



From plantpeople.triton.net Mon Dec 09 10:09:22 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] herbal habits

From: Joyce Wardwell <plantpeople.triton.net>

Date: Mon,  9 Dec 2002 03:09:22 -0500 (EST)



>Also, most (but not all) people who come see an herbalist have "cool"

>livers, and need yellowdock or berberis, so most of my clients get >that. All the rest is, hmmm, let's take this ... and this ... and >this ... and a bit of this one ...



I am always leary with across the board diagnosis - parasites, yeast, liver, etc.  Even more so with accross the board recommendations - fasts, ememas, herbs etc.   



I beleive that we often seek the paradigm we know, and soon we start to see it everywhere - and forget to focus on other contributing factors.  (not unlike identifying a plant for the first time, and then suddenly seeing it everywhere instead of the complexity of the ecosystem)



This does not mean I am immune to doing this (I lean towards finding deficient yin/nutrient deficiency) - nor does it mean that the paradigm we work in is not effective.  But it is good to watch out for those ruts and comfortable habits.

Peace

JoyceW 



Every great Oak Tree, was once just a nut, that stood its ground



From sc62.charter.net Mon Dec 09 18:00:47 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] shaking tinctures

From: "Sandra Cochrane" <sc62.charter.net>

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:00:47 -0500



I wonder what to do about shaking my tinctures,(several quarts), if I have

to be out -of-town for three days. Is it alright to just let them sit that

long without getting moldy?

My husband suggested taking them to the hotel with us , but do I have to go

that far?

Also, some of them , I forgot to powder before I tinctured,  such as burdock

root, witch hazel bark, fennel. Could I decant on full moon and put these

ones in a blender, and let sit another while?

Thank you. Sandra



From multiflorum.hotmail.com Mon Dec 09 18:14:19 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] shaking tinctures

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 11:14:19 -0500



>I wonder what to do about shaking my tinctures,(several quarts), if I have

>to be out -of-town for three days. Is it alright to just let them sit that

>long without getting moldy?

>My husband suggested taking them to the hotel with us , but do I have to go

>that far?

>Also, some of them , I forgot to powder before I tinctured,  such as 

>burdock

>root, witch hazel bark, fennel. Could I decant on full moon and put these

>ones in a blender, and let sit another while?



Tincture making is not as complicated or prone to trouble as peple always 

seem to suspect.  Shaking tinctures just helps to aid in extraction by 

agitating the herbs & alcohol... kind of like dunking the tea bag up and 

down while steeping tea.



I have never had a tincture get moldy, even when herbs aren't entirely 

submerged, and even when they've been sitting around for ages.  Three days 

without shaking will be fine.  I tell students that if they don't shae their 

tinctures daily while macerating, just macerate them longer and shake them 

as much as they can.  Shaking tinctures daily can make a tincture better, 

but not shaking a tincture enough will not make a tincture bad, just, 

perhaps, a bit weaker.



What it does do, though, is keep you "connected" to the process of making 

medicine, which is, I think, the greatest benifit of a spirited shake... it 

adds a bit of your magic to your tincture.



the herbs needn't be powdered, either, and will even extract a little better 

because powders will clump up at the bottom of the jar, which inhibits 

extraction.



From lakshmi.kingcon.com Mon Dec 09 19:48:27 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] tooth decay

From: "Michelle Morton-niyama" <lakshmi.kingcon.com>

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 12:48:27 -0500



re tooth decay and saliva-



the KEY here is to have an excellent diet which creates healthy enzymes-

lets not get all freaked out about bacteria...and yes, ive read the studies

on tooth decay. I truly believe that creating a healthy flora where these

cannot thrive is the way to go. so more bad news for sugar and high carb

diets.

And make sure there are adequate minerals in the diet (eek ).

And, yes, many (including myself!)have pre chewed food for babies- it is a

helpful way to grind it up and get some enzymatic action going- and this way

it is actually digested by the baby, and doesnt come out the same way it

went in.

excellent diet including chamomile and nettle tea,raw milk and yogurt,

etc...

this is also showing up a lot because of mineral depletion for several

generations.

my opinions, from my own experience and research.



michelle



From Jeninct2.aol.com Mon Dec 09 20:37:01 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Elderberry Syrup To Stop or Not To Stop? :)

From: Jeninct2.aol.com

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 13:37:01 EST



Hi!



I have heard of three different ways to use Elderberry Syrup and am wondering 

which way is the best to use it:



Take from Fall to Spring

Take for 6 - 8 weeks and then take a break

Take repeated dosages throughout the day until symptoms subside from cold/flu.



My goal in making up the Elderberry Syrup was to use as a preventative in the 

household.



Thanks for any feedback



Jen in CT



From gaila.hoosierlink.com Thu Dec 12 04:27:29 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] Elderberry Syrup To Stop or Not To Stop? :)

From: "Gail" <gaila.hoosierlink.com>

Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:27:29 -0500



Actually, we take it from Fall to Spring, but if we DO catch a cold or flu,

we take repeated dosages throughout the day to help minimize symptoms and

the duration of the illness.



Gail



----- Original Message -----

From: <Jeninct2.aol.com>

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 1:37 PM

Subject: [Herb] Elderberry Syrup To Stop or Not To Stop? :)



> Hi!

>

> I have heard of three different ways to use Elderberry Syrup and am

wondering

> which way is the best to use it:

>

> Take from Fall to Spring

> Take for 6 - 8 weeks and then take a break

> Take repeated dosages throughout the day until symptoms subside from

cold/flu.

>

> My goal in making up the Elderberry Syrup was to use as a preventative in

the

> household.

>

> Thanks for any feedback

>

> Jen in CT



From hkobayas.students.uiuc.edu Mon Dec 09 21:19:23 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Dissenting opinion

From: hkobayas <hkobayas.students.uiuc.edu>

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 13:19:23 -0600



Anne,



I honestly thought (without sarcasm) this listserv was a place to exchange an 

idea, and learn from others. I appreciate Henriette's effort to disseminate 

her knowledge through the listserv she maintains.



<After this post on the topic Menthol & Infants the discussion is closed as 

far as I'm concerned. There is no changing my mind on this topic.>



I merely think you are stating your opinion, but I am little concerned that 

can be perceived to supress dissenting opinions. I do not think there is a 

reason that both sides get aggrevated.



<I am a good researcher .... I say this without bragging, it is simply part of 

my character & an ability acquired through years employed as a bill collector, 

working in libraries and as a paralegal.>



This isn't a character attack. I do work on medicinal plants (not much on 

medicinal side), but do my capabilities and credential as a I plant scientist 

qualify me to present myself as a researcher on this tipic? Probably not. I 

think the same can be said about you as a researcher. How does working as a 

bill collector qualify a person as a researcher to speak on methol use on 

infants?



<There is not a chance that I will not accept Henriette's knowledge as sound 

on the menthol/infant subject. One of the reasons "my money is on" Henriette 

is that she is clearly, foremost & utmost, a teacher with an open mind.>



I agree she is very knowledgeable and I have been very thankful. But this does 

not mean that I swallow everything she says. Critical thinking is what many 

people value and cherish, and your above statement does not sound you have a 

particularly open mind. I was interested to hear a different opinion on this 

issue, and have been pleased to read that. Just my $0.02.



Hideka



From sorcy.kskbirkenfeld.de Mon Dec 09 23:23:26 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] Re: sweetening tea

From: "Sorcy" <sorcy.kskbirkenfeld.de>

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 22:23:26 +0100



I tell them

they can sweeten their tea if they want to. After all, drinking sweetened

herbal

tea is better than not drinking herbal tea at all.

---------------

do you suggest honey or molasses/maple sirup or do you allow them 'sugars'

???



Just curious.  I always found that adding honey especially adds to the

benefits, and don't look at it as a pleasent side effect only (specially for

cold season, of course)



GB, Sorcy



From sc62.charter.net Tue Dec 10 00:51:58 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] Re: Herb digest, Vol 1 #244 - 18 msgs

From: "Sandra Cochrane" <sc62.charter.net>

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 17:51:58 -0500



Thank you for that explanation about need/not need for frequent shaking of

tincture. Every bit I learn is a gem, and this relieved my mind, as I have

read about 'stinky' extracts. I wonder what went wrong for them.I have some

in half-gallon jars that the herb seemed to swell and take over, so that

they are hardly moveable. I wonder when I decant them if there will be much

tincture for all that herb used..1:5. Is it not a good idea to re-open

before time is up to add alcohol, excepting for the first day after? Thanks.

Sandra C.



From plantpeople.triton.net Tue Dec 10 09:23:35 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] pre-chewing and such

From: Joyce Wardwell <plantpeople.triton.net>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:23:35 -0500 (EST)



>The fact is, trying to do what you can to avoid introducing your

>saliva into your baby/young child's mouth is the single most >effective preventative for the child to NEVER get tooth decay for >the rest of his/her life. 



Interesting theory.  And the proof you offer?  Double blind test studies?  But who got to be the control babies? Of course, I was only talking out of a folkloric repertoire, which is based on several tens of thousands of years of application, but certainly has never been studied.  



Living a rather simple life when my babies were born, I did a lot of pre-chewing of my babies food.  Especially when introducing a new food.  Give a baby carrots - even cooked and you will have a diaper full of ... carrots.  Pre chew for the baby, and the baby will have a stool.



That notwithstanding - I have a mouthful of cavities and fillings from poor habits and nutrition when I was a child (or maybe from all that teen-age smooching I did).  Chewed up food for all four of my babies, and NONE of them have cavities... and we are well into the ten years.  And we are not a snot running, vermin infested, parasitical ridden family, thank you very much.  



I would postulate that the strong reactions to this suggestion indicates it is more of a cultural bias rather than anything else.... which is why you will probably attack my simple anecdotal evidence.  That in itself is a cultural bias.  



>If the S. mutans bacteria is not populated in the child's mouth >before about age three, it never will be. Barring some sort of >physical condition that erodes enamel, a person WILL NOT get tooth >decay if the S. mutans bacteria is not present in their mouth. IMO, >it's certainly worth the effort.



Ah, now this takes it back to the realm of the chicken or the egg.  Back to, lets attack/eliminate the bacteria (or virus etc) rather than the environment that allows for the offending organism to flourish.  Is it possible to rid the mouth of all exposure to S. mutans virus over the course of a lifetime?  Is it even desirable?  



I have heard this argument on this list in many different venues:  Do we treat/eliminate the virus that causes... warts (for example) or do we change the environment that allows the warts to develop in the first place?  Your answer probably depends on your overall healing belief paradigm, and few - if any - of my musings will effect that expression.  



I would answer:

To strive for systemic sterility is foolishness.  Indeed, sterility would = death ultimately.



Instead, seek for a healing environment with-in the body.  An environment that can handle the onslaught of slings and arrows cast at it daily.  Attack the disease and ultimately you must attack the host.  Western allopathic medicine - science - politics - indeed our very culture, attacks the offending organism rather than seeking homeostasis. 



Perhaps it may interest you to look into information that relates dental and orthodontic health with diet?  Weston Price's work springs to mind as a springboard to this idea.  If memory serves me its title is Nutrition and Physical Degeneration.

Peace

JoyceW  



Every great Oak Tree, was once just a nut, that stood its ground



From elementalclay.webtv.net Tue Dec 10 09:58:14 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] pre-chewing and such

From: elementalclay.webtv.net (Roxanne Brown)

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 01:58:14 -0600 (CST)



  I have no medical evidence to back me up but I agree with Joyce.

  With all four of my children I breastfed with no other foods until

around four months and then introduced many foods that I pre-chewed as

this was long before any commercial babyfood was actually food and I did

not have any grinders.

  Although I have terrible teeth due I believe to poor nutrition, my

eldest is 25, the youngest 16 and I don't think they have more than four

cavities between them.  In addition, they are all healthy and any

illnesses are short lived.

Roxanne



http://www.elementalgallery.com

Look not for Wealth in the Glitter of Gold

      But in your Grandmother's Smile



From lakshmi.kingcon.com Tue Dec 10 14:35:25 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] pre-chewing and such

From: "Michelle Morton-niyama" <lakshmi.kingcon.com>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 07:35:25 -0500



> Perhaps it may interest you to look into information that relates dental

and orthodontic health with diet?  Weston Price's work springs to mind as a

springboard to this idea.  If memory serves me its title is Nutrition and

Physical Degeneration.

> Peace

> JoyceW



Yes Joyce- this is an excellent reference- and I will add that I do have

cavities(raised on candy and white flour) but my children, who I have chewed

food for, dont.

Kerry- (and others) check out   http://www.westonaprice.org

good stuff!



From jclarke1.mn.rr.com Tue Dec 10 15:26:41 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] pre-chewing and such

From: "Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1.mn.rr.com>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 07:26:41 -0600



I know many of you scoff at science, but in the science world, anecdotal

evidence is not worth much, whereas double blind studies and scientific

research is generally given more weight. To use an example used often in

lactation circles: "I was formula fed and I grew up just fine!" used to

negate the scientifically proven fact that babies are healthier when they're

breastfed than when they're formula fed. Or the old "I never rode in a

carseat as an infant and I'm just fine." Just trying to illustrate the

fallacy of using "Well, I prechewed and none of my children have cavities"

as an argument that what I stated must then be false.



Yes, there ARE a lot of other factors that go into whether or not a child

has cavities. Diet and hygiene are the two biggest. But if the bacteria

isn't there in the mouth to begin with, diet and hygiene take a less

important role, because the mechanism by which cavities are formed is simply

not present. And the presence of the bacteria does not guarantee that you

will get cavities, especially if you practice good diet and hygiene, or if

you genetically have thicker enamel. But the LACK of presence of the

bacteria DOES guarantee a lack of cavities, barring a medical condition or

medications that might erode tooth enamel.



There was a great article about the issue in a summer issue of Mothering

magazine (July, maybe?). I think this is a link to all articles on the

topic:



http://www.mothering.com/10-0-0/html/10-7-0/cavities.shtml



For anyone who is interested in researching more about this, I highly

recommend checking it out. As far as other research, there are plenty of

studies if you do a Medline search on Strep Mutans or caries:



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi



I find that most Americans seem to really balk at this information, but over

in Europe, and especially Finland, this is pretty common knowledge. The

"don't share saliva" campaign with new parents in Finland is similar in

scope to the US's "back to sleep" program, meaning that it's something all

new parents are cautioned about when they first have their baby. Finnish

dental statistics bear out the validity of it.



Regards,



Kerry



From carlton.midrivers.com Tue Dec 10 16:05:57 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] pre-chewing and such

From: "Aliceann or Scott" <carlton.midrivers.com>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 07:05:57 -0700 (Mountain Standard Time)



 


 


-------Original Message-------


 





Subject: RE: [Herb] pre-chewing and such


 


I know many of you scoff at science, but in the science world, anecdotal


evidence is not worth much, whereas double blind studies and scientific


research is generally given more weight. To use an example used often in


lactation circles: "I was formula fed and I grew up just fine!" used to


negate the scientifically proven fact that babies are healthier when they're


breastfed than when they're formula fed. Or the old "I never rode in a


carseat as an infant and I'm just fine." Just trying to illustrate the


fallacy of using "Well, I prechewed and none of my children have cavities"


as an argument that what I stated must then be false.


 








Well Kerry,





I do understand your points, but disagree.





Some of us have been directly involved with research as well as use it every

day in our work.  Sadly, over the past several years, research has become

more and more directed toward expected outcomes and the concept of null

hypothesis and serendipitous results are pretty much out the window.





Globally, we have a passion for finding the magic source of disease while

ignoring the resistance to it...an inversion of beneficial research as

discovering the intricacies of health are not marketable ("sexy") except in

the glitz of faddism...like yoga now does "everything" for health and POWER

yoga is best (Yuck).





The entire process of scientific method so narrows the field of variables

that it takes years to re-expand exploration to see what else was going on

while we examined specific variables.  It's the mouse in the maze thing...

we think they learned a maze until the direction of it is rotated and we

discover they actually learned to navigate according to the light not the

maze.  Well, duh!





Thankfully, the intense need to go out on a limb in HIV and similar reseach

has begun to turn the tide in directed research...and some funding is

available to explore the totally unexpected again.





In the case of strep mutans, my response is pretty much why the hype?  Who's

benefitting from the "no saliva" campaigns?  What's the hidden agenda?  You

can bet it's not about prevention of cavities...or am I simply too jaded

from all this to believe there still is a genuine interest in health?





I'll take the tens of thousands of years of "anecdotal" over the limitations

of directed reseach and live accordingly.





So, whatever you wish to believe, you will,  and so be it.  





Blessings,


Aliceann


 


. 



From jclarke1.mn.rr.com Tue Dec 10 16:34:14 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] pre-chewing and such

From: "Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1.mn.rr.com>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:34:14 -0600



I totally understand what you're saying, but how can 10,000 years of

anecdotal experiences be relevant when the variables are totally different

now? Fact is, we don't have the diet now that we did a thousand years ago,

or even 200 years ago. Most people's diets are laden with simple carbs and

sugars, which wreak havoc on our teeth. So we need to make changes and

modifications, in order to accommodate our less healthful eating habits -

OR - go back to eating as naturally as possible, which of course would be

the ideal solution, but isn't realistic for many people.



Kerry



-----Original Message-----

I'll take the tens of thousands of years of "anecdotal" over the limitations

of directed reseach and live accordingly.  So, whatever you wish to believe,

you will,  and so be it.    Blessings, Aliceann   .



From asackett.artsackett.com Tue Dec 10 21:54:42 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] pre-chewing and such

From: Art Sackett <asackett.artsackett.com>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:54:42 -0700



On Tue, Dec 10, 2002 at 08:34:14AM -0600, Kerry & Jack wrote:



8< snip >8



> So we need to make changes and

> modifications, in order to accommodate our less healthful eating habits -

> OR - go back to eating as naturally as possible, which of course would be

> the ideal solution, but isn't realistic for many people.



I'm curious to know your rationale for the statement that "eating as 

naturally as possible isn't realistic for many people."



It may be inconvenient, in that there aren't (yet) any chemical feeding 

stations, er, excuse me, "fast food restaurants" offering natural fare, 

but it seems *to me* very realistic to expect people to give up the 

habit of prioritizing short-term expedience ahead of health. This is 

why I ask.



I am open to hearing any and all thoughts on the matter (off-list, as

we're off-topic now) because I have an interest in understanding the 

consumer-level reluctance to accept raw and minimally processed foods. 

I have no desire to debate the issues, just to understand them.



Thanks!



-- 

----   Art Sackett   ----



When in doubt, follow your heart.



From lakshmi.kingcon.com Tue Dec 10 22:30:45 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] pre-chewing and such

From: "Michelle Morton-niyama" <lakshmi.kingcon.com>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:30:45 -0500



. Most people's diets are laden with simple carbs and

> sugars, which wreak havoc on our teeth. So we need to make changes and

> modifications,

like eating well!

go back to eating as naturally as possible, which of course would be

> the ideal solution, but isn't realistic for many people.

WHY not? It is the most important thing there is- and, in my opinion, there

just isnt an excuse- for the well being of everone!

It would be wonderful if people would take the first step in caring for

themselves and their children and eat well!

I just cant see why avoidance of saliva is a better solution than proper

nutrition- for the betterment of the environment and the individual and the

entire human race!



michelle



From jclarke1.mn.rr.com Tue Dec 10 22:36:43 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] pre-chewing and such

From: "Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1.mn.rr.com>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:36:43 -0600



I'm not talking about something simple like eating well. I'm talking about

avoiding ALL refined sugars, ALL refined flours, and ALL simple carbs. As

someone who has been eating low-carb for the last two weeks, it's definitely

harder than it would seem, especially in our culture. Refined crap is in

EVERYTHING.



Then, when we send our children off to school, we have even LESS control

over the foods they eat. Bread is a STAPLE in most people's diet. It's also

one of the nastiest things for teeth.



Kerry



-----Original Message-----

From: herb-admin.lists.ibiblio.org

[mailto:herb-admin.lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Michelle Morton-niyama

Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 2:31 PM

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] pre-chewing and such



. Most people's diets are laden with simple carbs and

> sugars, which wreak havoc on our teeth. So we need to make changes and

> modifications,

like eating well!

go back to eating as naturally as possible, which of course would be

> the ideal solution, but isn't realistic for many people.

WHY not? It is the most important thing there is- and, in my opinion, there

just isnt an excuse- for the well being of everone!

It would be wonderful if people would take the first step in caring for

themselves and their children and eat well!

I just cant see why avoidance of saliva is a better solution than proper

nutrition- for the betterment of the environment and the individual and the

entire human race!



michelle



From jclarke1.mn.rr.com Tue Dec 10 15:48:34 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] pre-chewing and such

From: "Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1.mn.rr.com>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 07:48:34 -0600



And to clarify - the reason we don't see animals in the wild with caries

disease IS due to the nutrition factor, which I certainly didn't mean to

appear to discount. Animals don't eat many carbs, refined sugars, refined

flours, etc. As the Mothering article states - the bacteria has been around

for millenia, and the thing that's changed is not our oral flora, but our

diets. So you're right, perhaps saying that the bacteria is the single most

important factor in the formation of caries was a bit off. The presence of

the bacteria AND the presence of a high-carb, high sugar diet are the two

most important factors. But if avoiding the bacteria for a MERE 2-3 years

will prevent the child from ever getting tooth decay, I definitely think

it's worth it to take precautions against transferring saliva in those first

few years. I'm not talking about living a sterile life, just doing what you

can to avoid transferring that particular bug.



Kerry



From kchisholm.ca.inter.net Tue Dec 10 15:22:54 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] pre-chewing and such

From: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm.ca.inter.net>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:22:54 -0400



Dear Joyce

----- Original Message -----

From: "Joyce Wardwell" <plantpeople.triton.net>

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 3:23 AM

Subject: [Herb] pre-chewing and such



...del...>

> Ah, now this takes it back to the realm of the chicken or the egg.  Back

to, lets attack/eliminate the bacteria (or virus etc) rather than the

environment that allows for the offending organism to flourish.  Is it

possible to rid the mouth of all exposure to S. mutans virus over the course

of a lifetime?  Is it even desirable?

>

> I have heard this argument on this list in many different venues:  Do we

treat/eliminate the virus that causes... warts (for example) or do we change

the environment that allows the warts to develop in the first place?  Your

answer probably depends on your overall healing belief paradigm, and few -

if any - of my musings will effect that expression.  >

> I would answer:

> To strive for systemic sterility is foolishness.  Indeed, sterility would

= death ultimately.

>

> Instead, seek for a healing environment with-in the body.  An environment

that can handle the onslaught of slings and arrows cast at it daily.  Attack

the disease and ultimately you must attack the host.  Western allopathic

medicine - science - politics - indeed our very culture, attacks the

offending organism rather than seeking homeostasis.

>

> Perhaps it may interest you to look into information that relates dental

and orthodontic health with diet?  Weston Price's work springs to mind as a

springboard to this idea.  If memory serves me its title is Nutrition and

Physical Degeneration.



Herbs have been used in many ways to treat many conditions. Some herbs are

even generally recommended for mouth conditions. Gold Thread, for example,

is generally recommended for mouth ulcerations.



Would you think that there is a herb that is effective against S. Mutans?

Would you think there is a herb, or herb combination that promotes the

general well-being of the aspects of body wellness that reduce the tendency

for S.Mutans to thrive?



Kindest regards,



Kevin Chisholm



From honthaas.bigsky.net Tue Dec 10 18:05:25 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] pre-chewing and such

From: Veronica Honthaas <honthaas.bigsky.net>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:05:25 -0700



>

>Living a rather simple life when my babies were born, I did a lot of 

>pre-chewing of my babies food.  Especially when introducing a new 

>food.  Give a baby carrots - even cooked and you will have a diaper full 

>of ... carrots.  Pre chew for the baby, and the baby will have a stool.

>

>That notwithstanding - I have a mouthful of cavities and fillings from 

>poor habits and nutrition when I was a child (or maybe from all that 

>teen-age smooching I did).  Chewed up food for all four of my babies, and 

>NONE of them have cavities...



I have agree here. I, too, have many fillings from childhood years and my 

daughter, now 20, has none....and we had lots of saliva exchange. My 

daughter was raised on fresh raw goats milk and whole foods. Veronica



From granwell.surferz.net Tue Dec 10 22:23:15 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] pre-chewing and such

From: "Anne Granwell" <granwell.surferz.net>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:23:15 -0500



In this discussion RE: dental caries



Other factors (considering the changes over the past several decades) to be

brought into the equation might be



Infant vitamins with fluoride

Fluoride treatments

Fluoride in drinking water

Different water treatment (more pure water - less undesirable organisms)

Sugarless sodas

Marketing of sugar-free products

Increase in Health food awareness

More availability of "health foods"

Introduction of Artificial sweeteners

Advances in dental care

Dental Insurance now available to many

More conscientious dental hygiene

Peer pressure ... good teeth are "in"

Pacifiers

Encouraging a child/infant to drink water

Introduction of pure bottled waters

Bottle feeding infants vs. nursing

Changes in infant formulas

Adding Vitamin D to milk

The introduction of skimmed milk to the general public market

The Great Depression

Food Rationing during WWII

Campaign for better dental health and 'keeping your teeth' (years ago people

thought nothing of losing a tooth)

Advances in dentifrices

Introduction of dental floss to the general market and the now generally

accepted advice to floss.



These are just a few things that have changed one way or another in the past

several decades.



I have a feeling nursing vs bottle feeding is a most significant determining

factor.



(c)(c) from the desk of Anne Granwell



From multiflorum.hotmail.com Tue Dec 10 17:46:40 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] thoughts on "Scientific Herbalism"

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:46:40 -0500



>I know many of you scoff at science, but in the science world, anecdotal

>evidence is not worth much, whereas double blind studies and scientific

>research is generally given more weight.



I've no more to say regarding teeth, babies or cavities, but have to offer 

my opinion that the single largest threat I see to the craft (not science 

but craft, as in "art") of herbalism is the emphasis on scientific "proof".  

Lets remember, double blind studies were what indicated the "safety" of 

hormone replacement therapy, and the scientific model is what is used to 

approve all of the pharmaceutical & otc meds that are sitting on the shelves 

at Rite Aid... not indicators of great reliability.



The double blind study is simply counter to the way holistic medicine works. 

  Using it is like trying to determine the mating habits of lemurs by 

looking at what color they turn to in the fall.



Here's what I mean:

Lets say we're looking at treating depression with St. John's Wort.  A 

double blind study would gather two groups of people, give one group St. 

John's Wort extract and another group a "Placebo".  In order to be 

scientific, -all other variables are to remain the same- (which means the 

group being treated "holistically" can't add other herbs, exercise, 

breathwork, or any of the other options that any good herbalist would 

recommend be used in conjuction with St. John's Wort).  After a given time, 

we see whose doing better and make a conclusion, and then repeat.



There is absolutely nothing holistic about this.  Any herbalist who would 

suggest simply taking St. John's Wort will treat depression shouldn't be 

offering recommendations to people (so much for the "certified holistic 

practioner", eh?).



"Holistic" means we are treating the -whole- person.  If somebody's 

depressed, that means first seeking out what behaviors are causing the 

depression and addressing them.  I mentioned in a recent post that someone 

came to me for St John's Wort who I know is in a loveless unhappy marriage, 

and as long as she's living in that, the St. John's is not going to address 

anything.  The person has to exercise.  The person has to make sure they're 

breathing well.  The person has to be communicating their feelings in 

someway, either in a discussion group, therapy, or ceremony... whatever.  

All of these complimentary practises would "invalidate" a double blind 

study, since you wouldn't be able to prove that it was the St. John's Wort 

that was creating an improvement.  This is why double blinds CANNOT be used 

as a measure of holistic therapy.



Not to mention the old he-who-pays-for-the-study-gets-the-results-they-want. 

  This is a phenomenon clearly evident.  Take a look at Herbalgram, and 

you'll see a repeated pattern:  German herb company releases study saying 

herb is good for this.  American drug compnay does study either invalidating 

first one, indicating dangers of herb or drug interactions, or claiming herb 

doesn't really work.  Herb Product Companies offer reasons drug companies 

study was invalid or do another study proving the herb works after all.  

Repeat ad infinitum.



The one thing that is clear about studies is that the more a particular herb 

gets studied, the less the herb seems able to do.  As an example, read about 

Black Cohosh in the old eclectic materials and you'll find it serves an 

amazingly wide array of purposes, delineated by numerous specific 

indications.  Read contemporary information based on studies, and its "good 

for menopause", and as a result, is included in probably EVERY herbal 

formula sitting on the shelf with the word "Meno-" in it.  So much for 

specific indications.



Eclectic herbal medicine was based on Practice & Experience, and was an 

incredible system of treatment with immense depth and an elaborate system of 

treatment.  The new modern, scientific approach as practised in Germany & 

spreading throughout Europe and the US is reductionist & limiting, to both 

the herbalist and the people who come to see him/her.



at least, that's what I think.



From honthaas.bigsky.net Tue Dec 10 18:17:54 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] thoughts on "Scientific Herbalism"

From: Veronica Honthaas <honthaas.bigsky.net>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:17:54 -0700



>

>

>Not to mention the old 

>he-who-pays-for-the-study-gets-the-results-they-want.  This is a 

>phenomenon clearly evident.  Take a look at Herbalgram, and you'll see a 

>repeated pattern:  German herb company releases study saying herb is good 

>for this.  American drug compnay does study either invalidating first one, 

>indicating dangers of herb or drug interactions, or claiming herb doesn't 

>really work.  Herb Product Companies offer reasons drug companies study 

>was invalid or do another study proving the herb works after all.

>Repeat ad infinitum.



I never thought I would be one who doubts most scientific studies, but I am 

old enough now that I expect just about every new health study to be 

invalidated by some other study within a year of two of the original study. 

The scientific model of doing a study by controlling one variable just does 

not seem to work so well once you take it out of the lab and apply it to 

living creatures. Veronica



From kchisholm.ca.inter.net Tue Dec 10 18:29:09 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] thoughts on "Scientific Herbalism"

From: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm.ca.inter.net>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:29:09 -0400



I think the problem is one of " A Truth that is told with ill intent beats

all the lies one can invent."



Kevin Chisholm

----- Original Message -----

From: "Veronica Honthaas" <honthaas.bigsky.net>

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 12:17 PM

Subject: Re: [Herb] thoughts on "Scientific Herbalism"



>

> >Not to mention the old

> >he-who-pays-for-the-study-gets-the-results-they-want.  This is a



From multiflorum.hotmail.com Tue Dec 10 18:52:02 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] thoughts on "Scientific Herbalism"

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:52:02 -0500



>The scientific model of doing a study by controlling one variable just does 

>not seem to work so well once you take it out of the lab and apply it to 

>living creatures. Veronica



Hey... there's an interesting idea... maybe we could build a lab around the 

earth, apply all the appropriate controls, and create a sterile environment 

in which to live according to scientific precepts...



Oh wait... we're already trying that aren't we?



From ngbard.juno.com Wed Dec 11 03:55:17 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] thoughts on "Scientific Herbalism"

From: Marcia V Grossbard <ngbard.juno.com>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:55:17 -0500



On Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:17:54 -0700 Veronica Honthaas

<honthaas.bigsky.net> writes: >

> >

> >Not to mention the old >

>he-who-pays-for-the-study-gets-the-results-they-want.  This is a 

> >phenomenon clearly evident.  



> The scientific model of doing a study by controlling one variable 

> just does 

> not seem to work so well once you take it out of the lab and apply 

> it to 

> living creatures. Veronica



Good anecdotal reports of beneficial herbal use, compiled and presented

in a respected media are needed. 



How did echinacea get started?  It is EVERYWHERE, and in so many forms

even in a candy-style cough drop.  It seems that some ob/gyn MD's like

black cohosh.  Well, it may take 20 years ...(sigh)



Take care,

Marcia



From tmueller.bluegrass.net Sat Dec 14 07:15:46 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] thoughts on "Scientific Herbalism"

From: "Thomas Mueller" <tmueller.bluegrass.net>

Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:15:46 -0500 (EST)



Thread started by "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>



Too much to quote, but you have a good point about the antiholistic view of

medicine treating illness simply by prescribing drugs, and herbalism falling

into the same line of thinking.  Depressed?  Take St. John's wort.  Have asthma,

take mahuang, or perhaps lobelia, only it's not so simple.  Diet and nutrition,

exercise, and environment, including social environment, are also crucial.  I

see double-blind placebo-controlled tests as assembly-line medicine, perhaps

appropriate for pharmaceutical treatments but not for herbal medicine or other

modalities such as chiropractic and acupuncture.



Predominant attitude in newsgroup alt.support.asthma seems to be

straight-and-narrow conventional western medicine, viewing double-blind

placebo-controlled experiments as the gold standard.  Other factors besides

pharmaceutical treatments are relegated to a secondary role, though airborne

allergens and pollutants are taken seriously.  So I find this newsgroup of very

limited usefulness.



From timelesstree.earthlink.net Sat Dec 14 15:50:56 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] thoughts on "Scientific Herbalism"

From: Elizabeth Scotten Finn <timelesstree.earthlink.net>

Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 08:50:56 -0500



On Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 12:15  AM, Thomas Mueller wrote:



> Predominant attitude in newsgroup alt.support.asthma seems to be

> straight-and-narrow conventional western medicine, viewing double-blind

> placebo-controlled experiments as the gold standard.  Other factors 

> besides

> pharmaceutical treatments are relegated to a secondary role, though 

> airborne

> allergens and pollutants are taken seriously.  So I find this 

> newsgroup of very

> limited usefulness.



I agree with what folks are saying. Interesting tidbit for asthma 

sufferers:  I have been diagnosed with adult onset asthma, and i got so 

tired of getting "my winter bronchitis" and not breathing well, that 

i've been experimenting with diet. When the breathing was difficult, 

initially i was taking mahuang, which helped the breathing but not the 

blood pressure. I am uncomfortable using the prescribed  inhaler. When 

i started looking at the symptoms, and what i was eating, i started 

avoiding wheat and limiting sugars and veggies in the nightshade family 

(potatoes, green peppers etc....) WOW!  What a difference! The other 

thing was increasing the water intake - care for the liver & kidneys 

etc...  I agree with folks when they talk about "wholistic" medicine. 

Healing is more than taking a quick fix drug or herb. It's using the 

herbs to support your body systems, using dietary changes if necessary 

to give the body what it needs or eliminate what it can't handle, and 

being conscious and in the right frame of mind to accept these things.



in health - bek



From kchisholm.ca.inter.net Sat Dec 14 17:20:16 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] thoughts on "Scientific Herbalism"

From: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm.ca.inter.net>

Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 11:20:16 -0400



Dear Elizabeth

...del...

Subject: Re: [Herb] thoughts on "Scientific Herbalism"



>

>

> I agree with what folks are saying. Interesting tidbit for asthma

> sufferers:  I have been diagnosed with adult onset asthma, and i got so

> tired of getting "my winter bronchitis" and not breathing well, that

> i've been experimenting with diet.

..del...

...  I agree with folks when they talk about "wholistic" medicine.



In the interests of Holistic Medicine, could I make some wild guesses about

you?



1: You live in a Northern region?

2: You live in an older house?

3: It is a two storey house?

4: You sleep upstairs?

5: You seldom see condensate and never see frost on your windows?



How am I doing? :-)



Kevin Chisholm



From timelesstree.earthlink.net Sun Dec 15 14:33:41 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] thoughts on "Scientific Herbalism"

From: Elizabeth Scotten Finn <timelesstree.earthlink.net>

Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 07:33:41 -0500



On Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 10:20  AM, Kevin Chisholm wrote:



> In the interests of Holistic Medicine, could I make some wild guesses 

> about

> you?

>

> 1: You live in a Northern region?

> 2: You live in an older house?

> 3: It is a two storey house?

> 4: You sleep upstairs?

> 5: You seldom see condensate and never see frost on your windows?

>

> How am I doing? :-)



That would have been quite accurate last year.  :-)  Mold allergies and 

wood heat... great combo. I am still in the north now, but live in an 

older, fairly air tight mobile home, with plenty of frost on the 

outside doors. ;-)



lovely day to y'all!



-bek



From kchisholm.ca.inter.net Sun Dec 15 15:34:59 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] thoughts on "Scientific Herbalism"

From: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm.ca.inter.net>

Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 09:34:59 -0400



Dear Elizabeth

----- Original Message -----

From: "Elizabeth Scotten Finn" <timelesstree.earthlink.net>

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 8:33 AM

Subject: Re: [Herb] thoughts on "Scientific Herbalism"



>

> On Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 10:20  AM, Kevin Chisholm wrote:

>

> > In the interests of Holistic Medicine, could I make some wild guesses

> > about

> > you?

> >

> > 1: You live in a Northern region?

> > 2: You live in an older house?

> > 3: It is a two storey house?

> > 4: You sleep upstairs?

> > 5: You seldom see condensate and never see frost on your windows?

> >

> > How am I doing? :-)

>

> That would have been quite accurate last year.  :-)



Good!! I used to work for Inspector Poirot in a previous life!! :-)



Seriously, I suspect that your problem is very low relative humidity, that

dries your nasal passages and bronchial tissues, allowing ready access of

germs and stuff.



The optimal Relative Humidity for human health is 50%. Significantly above

50%, pathogens can survive in the air, and significantly below 50%, they go

into a spore state, and the "germ seeds" infect you.



May I suggest that you simply pay attention tothe relative humidity in your

bedroom at night, by using a humidifier, and a simple humidistat? That

simple move may very well improve your bronchitis and reduce your incidence

of colds and other diseases.



Mold allergies and

> wood heat... great combo. I am still in the north now, but live in an

> older, fairly air tight mobile home, with plenty of frost on the

> outside doors. ;-)



OK... this is good. At least there is significant moisture in teh air.

However, since you don't have frost on the windows, the RH is still on the

low side.  You should look to caulking and weather stripping, buth to

increase the relative humidity, and to reduce your heating bills. If you

employ electric heat, the problem is a bit easier, but if you use Natural

Gas, the combustion air requirements, and the draft through the barometric

damper will draw down the RH significantly.



Best wishes for a Humid and Healthy Winter.



Kevin Chisholm

>



From tmueller.bluegrass.net Thu Dec 19 08:01:12 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] thoughts on "Scientific Herbalism"

From: "Thomas Mueller" <tmueller.bluegrass.net>

Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 01:01:12 -0500 (EST)



> I agree with what folks are saying. Interesting tidbit for asthma 

> sufferers:  I have been diagnosed with adult onset asthma, and i got so 

> tired of getting "my winter bronchitis" and not breathing well, that 

> i've been experimenting with diet. When the breathing was difficult, 

> initially i was taking mahuang, which helped the breathing but not the 

> blood pressure. I am uncomfortable using the prescribed  inhaler. When 

> i started looking at the symptoms, and what i was eating, i started 

> avoiding wheat and limiting sugars and veggies in the nightshade family 

> (potatoes, green peppers etc....) WOW!  What a difference! The other 

> thing was increasing the water intake - care for the liver & kidneys 

> etc...  I agree with folks when they talk about "wholistic" medicine. 

> Healing is more than taking a quick fix drug or herb. It's using the 

> herbs to support your body systems, using dietary changes if necessary 

> to give the body what it needs or eliminate what it can't handle, and 

> being conscious and in the right frame of mind to accept these things.



> in health - bek



I have still not yet been officially diagnosed with asthma, they called it

pneumonia back in April 1997 with all the yellow sputum and then found nothing 

infectious.  They thought it was not allergy-related, ignoring my experience

over the preceding 11 months.



Mahuang helped my breathing some of the time, but even when it helped, I was

likely to wake up several hours later coughing violently.  My last use of

mahuang was in late March 1997.  I started with green tea in May 1998, and that

has helped my breathing much better than mahuang, and I still depend heavily on

green tea.  I currently am not using any pharmaceuticals; the inhalers all

expired, and I don't want to get hooked on corticosteroids if I can help it.



It seems that wheat is widely regarded as the root of all evil with regard to

food allergies and intolerances, and that would be true with celiac disease at

the very least.  But I don't like to eliminate wheat from the diet if it is

innocent, and wheat seems not guilty in my case.  But I still am not venturing

to eat anything in family Solanaceae since I got the bad reactions beginning in

1996, and I still have not ventured with lycium berries or Withania somnifera

(ashwaganda) which are in family Solanaceae.



I get the feeling I might be missing something in the diet like perhaps

vitamin B-12, since I have been eating animal protein foods very infrequently

due to digestive and/or respiratory problems resulting therefrom.  Fresh raw

pineapple helps with the digestive problems.



From multiflorum.hotmail.com Tue Dec 10 17:51:32 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] "one more" thought on "Scientific Herbalism"

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:51:32 -0500



Though I've a steadfast aversion to "standardized extracts", I've recently 

considered adding the following to my tincture labels:



this extract is guaranteed to contain 100%

of the following active ingredient(s):

MAGIC



From cyli.visi.com Wed Dec 11 04:38:39 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Wild Teeth

From: "Cyli" <cyli.visi.com>

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:38:39 -0600



Mail message body



	

Animals in the wild do _not_ necessarily have wonderful teeth.  I've 

got a wolf skull in the family room that has a cavity (among a couple 

of others) in a molar that I can put my thumb into.  My raccoon 

skulls also have dental cavities.  Now the wolf was very old (the 

tooth wear shows it), but he lived in the northern forests (up by the 

Boundary Waters Canoe Area).  Not likely to have had many man made 

carbs and sugars.  The raccoons I found in an area with summer houses 

within a mile, so they were doubtless into some garbage, but not all 

that much of their diet could come from that.  Too far to walk 

nightly from their home base.  One of them was fairly young.  I've 

found a few deer skulls (not interesting enough to take home and 

bleach and clean) that also had teeth I didn't much envy, though they 

were better than the carnivores.  I did find one adult racoon with 

good teeth from a cursory examination (he still had enough flesh to 

stink, so I left him for later, but something else took him away in 

the couple of weeks before I got back to him), so I don't know what 

the insides of the teeth looked like.



I was very impressed with the wolf's teeth.  I, too, had thought a 

natural diet would pretty much prevent tooth decay.  



Purely anecdotal, of course...



From mterry.snet.net Sun Dec 15 15:06:34 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Wild Teeth

From: May Terry <mterry.snet.net>

Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 08:06:34 -0500



Cyli wrote:



> Animals in the wild do _not_ necessarily have wonderful teeth.  I've

> got a wolf skull in the family room that has a cavity (among a couple

> of others) in a molar that I can put my thumb into.  My raccoon

> skulls also have dental cavities.

>

> I was very impressed with the wolf's teeth.  I, too, had thought a

> natural diet would pretty much prevent tooth decay.

>

> Purely anecdotal, of course...



Do you think his mother gave him wet kisses?



Oh my gosh...

--

The time is always right to do what is right.  ---Martin Luther King, Jr.



From rochelle.ntlworld.com Wed Dec 11 11:05:59 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] Chilblains!!

From: "rochelle" <rochelle.ntlworld.com>

Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:05:59 -0000



I've lumpy raised itchy chilblains at the bottom of my big toe , left foot.

It there an acute specific tincture to put on externally for it!!!!!:-)

Please back channel as I get the Digest!!

Regards

Rochelle

www.rochellemarsden.co.uk



From tmueller.bluegrass.net Sat Dec 14 07:15:45 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Chilblains!!

From: "Thomas Mueller" <tmueller.bluegrass.net>

Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:15:45 -0500 (EST)



> I've lumpy raised itchy chilblains at the bottom of my big toe , left foot.

> It there an acute specific tincture to put on externally for it!!!!!:-)

> Please back channel as I get the Digest!!

> Regards

> Rochelle

> www.rochellemarsden.co.uk



I usually get these same problems in winter, though not limited to the first

toes, and December is the worst month even though normal temperatures are lower

in January.  Usually, soreness comes before itching, and itching is not much of

a problem.  I've tried cayenne near but not directly on the sores, you could

also try ginger.  Cayenne was a coarse red powder and only moderately hot.

Hopefully, somebody else has better ideas.  I have a hard sore area on the 

bottom of the right first toe that started before the cold weather, but no

chilblains so far this season.



Where are you, and how cold has it been?



I don't understand what you mean by "Please back channel ..".



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Wed Dec 11 17:31:30 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] tincture labels, debates, etc.

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:31:30 +0200



"jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com> wrote to herb.lists.ibiblio.org:



> Though I've a steadfast aversion to "standardized extracts", I've recently 

> considered adding the following to my tincture labels:

> 

> this extract is guaranteed to contain 100%

> of the following active ingredient(s):

> MAGIC



You'll seem as knowledgeable about herbs as the people who put "... and love" in

the ingredients list for every single item in their herbal catalogue - ie., not

very. (To me, these folks sound rather too likely to pick petasites when they

actually wanted burdock.)



And it's frills'n'lace. Frills'n'lace are completely out of place on tincture

labels.



On the recent debates: it's quite cool when somebody challenges my beliefs. Some

of mine have changed recently because of these discussions. Others have not.



Oh, and Anne Granwell wrote:

> [Henriette's] main interest in herbs is herbs not

> getting rich off of them, and, not impressing the world with her

> credentials. 



I'm actually in it for guestbook entries on my website. But - nobody's signed

that guestbook for _weeks_, _please_ do something!



;)



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Fri Dec 13 21:56:41 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] tincture labels, debates, etc.

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 21:56:41 +0200



Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi> wrote to herb.lists.ibiblio.org:



> I'm actually in it for guestbook entries on my website. But - nobody's signed

> that guestbook for _weeks_, _please_ do something!



Ooooh. Shiny! Thanks, guys!



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Wed Dec 11 17:31:34 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] tinctures absorbing all their alcohol

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:31:34 +0200



"Sandra Cochrane" <sc62.charter.net> wrote to <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>:



> I have some

> in half-gallon jars that the herb seemed to swell and take over, so that

> they are hardly moveable. I wonder when I decant them if there will be much

> tincture for all that herb used..1:5. Is it not a good idea to re-open

> before time is up to add alcohol, excepting for the first day after?



Yes, you can, but how long have they been in there? 7-21 days is usually plenty.

You could try to decant one of your half-gallon thingies and see how much

tincture you can squeeze out of there. If it's not much, add more alcohol (same

percentage as earlier) and let sit again, but note the amount added. And note

too that your tincture will be weaker by about as much as you added alcohol.



I've never had dried herb overswell the jar on me, what did you do?

You used about 300 g dried herb to about 1.5 liter menstruum?

Did you grind your herb or was it dried'n'sliced? I usually do dried'n'sliced,

except when I percolate my tinctures.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From sc62.charter.net Wed Dec 11 23:19:36 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] tinctures absorbing all their alcohol

From: "Sandra Cochrane" <sc62.charter.net>

Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:19:36 -0500



The instructions I followed were...'when your herb material is settled in

the container, you want it to be at least 3/4 of the way up to the top of

the container. If it isn't, simply add more herb. If you have too much herb,

add more grain alcohol and move up to a bigger container.'Well, I started

out with a quart size jar, but when the alcohol was added, it was absorbed

by the herb, down to about an inch depth from the top. So, I moved up to a

bigger container. But now, the herb was not filling the jar 3/4 of the way,

so I added more herb. What started out as a quart, ended up as a gallon.

It's like when you're cutting hair; you cut it too short on one side,so you

try to even up the other side,......

The next instruction was... 'the best tincture is made from finely chopped

or even powdered herb material'.

So I buy everything in the largest size and powder myself in the vita-mix.So

it was all powdered. (But I have also had the same sort of problem with

other light and airy herbs, such as hops and mullein leaf, that do not

powder well even in the vita-mix, and absorb most of the volume of the

container, and the alcohol).

 'Once the herbs have soaked in alcohol for a week, you can then pour the

mixture in a blender to make the herb material more like applesauce'.

I didn't do this because it seemed like it was already just two jars of

sludge.

 'Press on full moon'.

I have read that you should follow the moon phases for the strongest

tinctures, and that six weeks is the approximate time to steep;

 'This is the cycle of one new moon to a full moon-2 weeks, then the full

moon to the next new moon-another 2 weeks, and finally the new moon to the

full moon- the final two weeks. Using dried herb, start on the new moon to

stay in lunar cycle'. I would have thought that this was old folklore,but

the farmers used to sow and reap by the moon , so maybe something to it.

Thank you so much for asking...... I have been trying to teach myself by

studying everything possible and trial by error.

I really enjoy this forum and what everyone has to say about whatever. It's

so informative.

I look forward to receiving it each day.

Thanks.

Sandra C.



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Fri Dec 13 18:11:15 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] tinctures absorbing all their alcohol

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 18:11:15 +0200



"Sandra Cochrane" <sc62.charter.net> wrote to <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>:



> The instructions I followed were...'when your herb material is settled in

> the container, you want it to be at least 3/4 of the way up to the top of

> the container. If it isn't, simply add more herb. If you have too much herb,

> add more grain alcohol and move up to a bigger container.'



Those sound like pretty bogus instructions.

Measure out one ounce (by weight) of dried herb, cut'n'sifted, add five ounces

(by volume) of your alcohol (usually 50-60 %), put all into jar, close lid, let

sit 1-4 weeks, strain.



Moon, well, shrug. I don't, and my tinctures are fine.

Fluffy herbs, agreed, percolation is best. There, too, you should measure and

weigh your alcohol and herb.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From Herbmednurse.aol.com Wed Dec 11 22:07:42 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] celery seed

From: Herbmednurse.aol.com

Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:07:42 EST



has anyone tinctured celery seed?  Henriette?  I'm using it in capsules now, 

but would like a tincture.  If it's possible, what ratio? 

d



From sorcy.kskbirkenfeld.de Thu Dec 12 00:08:49 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] celery seed

From: "Sorcy" <sorcy.kskbirkenfeld.de>

Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 23:08:49 +0100



> has anyone tinctured celery seed?  If it's possible, what ratio?

-----------------

1:1 to 1:3 in 60% (personally, I use 40%, crushing the seeds prior to

tincturing)



Sorcy



From elsaucc.msn.com Wed Dec 11 22:24:51 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Lifespan of tinctures

From: "Elsa Bruguier" <elsaucc.msn.com>

Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 20:24:51 +0000



I would appreciate hearing opinions regarding the lifespan of tinctures, 

specifically in relation to volume.  For example, were one to purchase a 32 

oz. or larger bottle of tincture, does potency diminish after a particular 

time; if so, is potency correlated with the type of herb (either by family, 

or by individual herb) and/or as well as the extraction method (i.e., 

alcohol, glycerin)?  I am most curious about alcohol extracted tinctures.



Thanks to all who consider this question.



From mt_turtle.email.com Wed Dec 11 23:48:28 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Re: Lifespan of tinctures

From: "K B" <mt_turtle.email.com>

Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 06:48:28 +0900



General rule of thumb is 3 to 5 years BUT THIS VARIES GREATLY.

Lifespan depends on many factors including storage temerature, oxydation & humidity, light, as well as he peculiarities of the specific herb/herbs used.



All are best stored in a cool, dry, dark place.  Larger containers allow more oxygen and humidity in everytime you open them.  Best way to store tinctures from a large bottle is to repour them into smaller bottles and fill all the way up the neck.  This limits air in the bottles and you only open and close the one you are using so it gets used up fast.  I save for reuse all the brown bottles that come my way, especially the 1 and 2 oz. sizes with droppers.  

KB

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From dan.awherbals.com Thu Dec 12 00:09:14 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] tinctures absorbing all their alcohol (and tincture exp

 date)

From: Dan McDonley <dan.awherbals.com>

Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:09:14 -0800



Try doing it 1:4 and you'll find you won't have these problems.. Example 

1:4 weight: volume  2oz by weight of  powderd herb to 8 ounces volume of 

50% alcohol. Shake daily for dry macerations..



Dan



P.S. about the tincture expiration question, Most tinctures can go 5-10 

years minimum stored in brown apothecary bottles.. Anemone and Lobelia 

are the only two I have run across that lose potency.  I've noticed 

tinctures left in the smaller jars with the rubber bulb droppers can go 

bad if stored where the alcohol touches the rubber. A client of mine was 

so sensitive to it she threw all hers away half used and ordered new 

ones without the droppers to taint it.



Sandra Cochrane wrote:



>The instructions I followed were...'when your herb material is settled in

>the container, you want it to be at least 3/4 of the way up to the top of

>the container. If it isn't, simply add more herb. If you have too much herb,

>add more grain alcohol and move up to a bigger container.'Well, I started

>out with a quart size jar, but when the alcohol was added, it was absorbed

>by the herb, down to about an inch depth from the top. So, I moved up to a

>bigger container. But now, the herb was not filling the jar 3/4 of the way,

>so I added more herb. What started out as a quart, ended up as a gallon.

>It's like when you're cutting hair; you cut it too short on one side,so you

>try to even up the other side,......

>The next instruction was... 'the best tincture is made from finely chopped

>or even powdered herb material'.

>So I buy everything in the largest size and powder myself in the vita-mix.So

>it was all powdered. (But I have also had the same sort of problem with

>other light and airy herbs, such as hops and mullein leaf, that do not

>powder well even in the vita-mix, and absorb most of the volume of the

>container, and the alcohol).

> 'Once the herbs have soaked in alcohol for a week, you can then pour the

>mixture in a blender to make the herb material more like applesauce'.

>I didn't do this because it seemed like it was already just two jars of

>sludge.

> 'Press on full moon'.

>I have read that you should follow the moon phases for the strongest

>tinctures, and that six weeks is the approximate time to steep;

> 'This is the cycle of one new moon to a full moon-2 weeks, then the full

>moon to the next new moon-another 2 weeks, and finally the new moon to the

>full moon- the final two weeks. Using dried herb, start on the new moon to

>stay in lunar cycle'. I would have thought that this was old folklore,but

>the farmers used to sow and reap by the moon , so maybe something to it.

>Thank you so much for asking...... I have been trying to teach myself by

>studying everything possible and trial by error.

>I really enjoy this forum and what everyone has to say about whatever. It's

>so informative.

>I look forward to receiving it each day.

>Thanks.

>Sandra C.



From jclarke1.mn.rr.com Thu Dec 12 00:12:20 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] tinctures absorbing all their alcohol (and tincture exp date)

From: "Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1.mn.rr.com>

Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:12:20 -0600



Actually, I'd suggest 1:5 with dry herbs. That's more the standard ratio for

most herbs, and since there's a bit less herb there, there will be less

chance of it soaking up all the alcohol.



Kerry



-----Original Message-----



Try doing it 1:4 and you'll find you won't have these problems.. Example

1:4 weight: volume  2oz by weight of  powderd herb to 8 ounces volume of

50% alcohol.



From dan.awherbals.com Thu Dec 12 00:26:01 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] tinctures absorbing all their alcohol (and tincture exp

 date)

From: Dan McDonley <dan.awherbals.com>

Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:26:01 -0800



I always use 1:5 for percolations but most dry macerations in my opinion 

are so weak if for some reason i had to do a dry maceration i'd do it 

1:4 to make it stronger. It sounds like this person was doing  more of a 

1:2 dry or stronger and that is why the herbs soaked up so much. Or it 

could have been something like burdock that is a startchy root.



Dan



Kerry & Jack wrote:



>Actually, I'd suggest 1:5 with dry herbs. That's more the standard ratio for

>most herbs, and since there's a bit less herb there, there will be less

>chance of it soaking up all the alcohol.

>

>Kerry

>

>-----Original Message-----

>

>Try doing it 1:4 and you'll find you won't have these problems.. Example

>1:4 weight: volume  2oz by weight of  powderd herb to 8 ounces volume of

>50% alcohol.



From mt_turtle.email.com Thu Dec 12 00:28:58 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Re:tinctures absorbing all their alcohol

From: "K B" <mt_turtle.email.com>

Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 07:28:58 +0900



Fluffy fuzzy dry botanicals that are finely ground do not need to be soaked and shaken long term.  use the perculation method.  I think it was recently discussed but here is a quicky version:



First weight the herb (in grams or ounces)



Second determine the volume: Pack the choosen herb in the ground form into a measure.  



For that amount by volume add an equal volume of Vodka.  For example: for mullein that equals one cupful when packed in, add one cupful of vodka.  Shake well and let set overnight.



The next day pack this into a percking funnel and add the appropriate amount of Alcohol or alcohol/water mix (based on specific herb used and determined by the original weight [first step].  Example: for a botanical that needs PGA at 1:5, if the weight at step one was one half ounce, pour two and a half ounces of PGA (one half ounce times five) over into the top of the percking funnel and allow to drip into a catch container.  Then press the mass left in the funnel to get the last little bit and your done.



The water content in the vodka reconstitutes the herb and softens hard barks and roots.  The higher alcohol content sucks the water along with the water and alcohol soluable properties out of the cell walls.  This happens quickly and there is no need for long soaking. 



For green (not dried) herbs skip the vodka phase as there is already plenty of water (except maybe barks)in the herb and go straight to perk.  When I make st. johnswort tincture the left over herb is dry and rustles like cornflakes when done and a blood red tincture is in the catch bottle. 



Using this method a high quality tincture can be make in less than 48 hours and it is a sooo much easier method of coping with fluffy botanicals.



More on this in the Herb FAQ and Michael Moore site.

KB



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From mt_turtle.email.com Thu Dec 12 03:17:49 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Re: tincture exp date

From: "K B" <mt_turtle.email.com>

Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:17:49 +0900



shepards purse and lemon balm are others that doesn't hold well. I only keep them harvest to harvest, but they don't last that long untinctured.

KB

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From sc62.charter.net Fri Dec 13 17:09:49 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] Herbs absorbing all their alcohol

From: "Sandra Cochrane" <sc62.charter.net>

Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 10:09:49 -0500



The herbs in this formula, called Female Tonic, were dong quai ,wild yam,

chaste tree, damiana, licorice, and hops. I don't know if any of them would

be called starchy, but hops are voluminous.

By using 2 oz. herb to 8 oz. alcohol, 10 oz,( I know this is just an

example), but is it necessary to have jar filled to top so that there is no

air at top?(The instructions you read in your very first book seem to set

the standard for you, right or wrong, until you gain more knowledge and

experience, or learn different. :)

I have never done the percolation method, and do not have the equipment, but

would like to try it for the sake of time. Is there a substitute for the

percolating vessel? If this method produces a tincture that is just as

potent as the maceration way, and faster,I wonder why it wouldn't be the

method of choice? What makes up for the loss of time? (what is PGA?)



Thanks.



Sandra





From jclarke1.mn.rr.com Fri Dec 13 17:18:43 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] Herbs absorbing all their alcohol

From: "Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1.mn.rr.com>

Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:18:43 -0600



"but is it necessary to have jar filled to top so that there is no

air at top?(The instructions you read in your very first book seem to set

the standard for you, right or wrong, until you gain more knowledge and

experience, or learn different. :)"



In my experience, no, that's not necessary. Especially if you're shaking it

regularly, and you're not letting it sit for months at a time, tincturing.

And especially if you're using alcohol.



"If this method produces a tincture that is just as

potent as the maceration way, and faster,I wonder why it wouldn't be the

method of choice? What makes up for the loss of time? (what is PGA?)"



Well, for me, it's the fact that I have two small children that demand much

of my attention throughout the day, and I don't generally have a couple

uninterrupted hours to tend to the percolation. I need to be able to step

away every few moments, as needed, and I don't think the percolation method

would be compatible with our household. I like the fact that I'm able to get

the herbs in the jar and then just forget about them, except for once a day

when I go and shake them all. May give percolation a try when the kids are a

bit older, though.



Kerry



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Fri Dec 13 18:11:33 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Herbs absorbing all their alcohol

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 18:11:33 +0200



"Sandra Cochrane" <sc62.charter.net> wrote to <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>:



> The herbs in this formula, called Female Tonic, were dong quai ,wild yam,

> chaste tree, damiana, licorice, and hops. I don't know if any of them would

> be called starchy, but hops are voluminous.



I never make formulas from dried herb - I tincture each separately, and combine

as needed.



> I have never done the percolation method, and do not have the equipment, but

> would like to try it for the sake of time. Is there a substitute for the

> percolating vessel? 



Yes. A sawed-off glass bottle (or a plastic bottle - I use 1.5 l coca-cola

bottles).



> If this method produces a tincture that is just as

> potent as the maceration way, and faster,I wonder why it wouldn't be the

> method of choice? What makes up for the loss of time? (what is PGA?)



You need more menstruum for the same amount of tincture; however, you also need

less herb for the same amount of tincture. How-to on Michael Moore's website -

go for the manuals, go for the Materia Medica, follow the percolation

instructions in the "how-to" section. And download the percolation worksheet,

too.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From plantpeople.triton.net Fri Dec 13 19:22:18 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] percolation vs convenience

From: Joyce Wardwell <plantpeople.triton.net>

Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:22:18 -0500 (EST)



>I have two small children that demand much of my attention >throughout the day, and I don't generally have a couple >uninterrupted hours to tend to the percolation.

Once you have the set-up equipment readay doing a perc takes about the same amount of steps as a somple tincture.  Break it into small steps. You will find it worth the effort... and I made them when I had 4 kids all under 3 1/2 years.    



>I need to be able to step away every few moments, as needed.

No problem.  Macerate sits on its own.  Percolate drips on its own (when set up correctly).  Reduce on a warming burner (will take longer but won't burn) and you are pretty much just setting things up and letting them do their thing until finished - and it won't hurt if they sit there a little longer after being "finished".

Peace

JocyeW



Every great Oak Tree, was once just a nut, that stood its ground



From mt_turtle.email.com Sat Dec 14 00:00:44 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Re: PGA

From: "K B" <mt_turtle.email.com>

Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 07:00:44 +0900



PGA = pure grain alcohol, AKA Everclear, AKA moonshine

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From kchisholm.ca.inter.net Sat Dec 14 00:19:59 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] Re: PGA

From: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm.ca.inter.net>

Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 18:19:59 -0400



Dear KB

----- Original Message -----

From: "K B" <mt_turtle.email.com>

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 6:00 PM

Subject: [Herb] Re: PGA



>

> PGA = pure grain alcohol, AKA Everclear, AKA moonshine



Most moonshine is anything but pure alcohol. Classic shine is made with a

"worm" or a "condenser" that allows many other compounds to get carried over

to the condensate.



Kevin Chisholm



From lakshmi.kingcon.com Sat Dec 14 03:05:48 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] osha maple syrup

From: "Michelle Morton-niyama" <lakshmi.kingcon.com>

Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 20:05:48 -0500



Hello all and jim-



Today I made this lovely, lovely creation. It tastes delicious!

I must admit I am an osha lover though...

I did have to leave it to tend to children, so , alas, I ended up taking my

stove apart to clean gooey syrup up from under the burners and down the

front...

I would recommend keeping a close eye on this- as maple syrup tends to foam

when it boils...



so- a few questions-

what ratios of root:syrup have you found to be best?

how long do you boil?

how do you keep it from turning into hard candy?



thanks!

oh- and the "candied" roots are delicious to chew on after they are boiled

in syrup-



michelle



From multiflorum.hotmail.com Sat Dec 14 17:29:52 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] osha maple syrup

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 10:29:52 -0500



>Subject: [Herb] osha maple syrup



>so- a few questions-

>what ratios of root:syrup have you found to be best?

>how long do you boil?

>how do you keep it from turning into hard candy?



Usually, I just add the tinctures to the syrup (30-60 drops per 

Tablespoon)... its easier, and eliminates clean up.  The last time I steeped 

the dried roots in syrup, I just "eyeballed" it, and tasted it after it had 

steeped for a while for strength.  I had a gas stove then, which is easy to 

adjust the heat on, but now I've got an electric stove, and find them near 

impossible to accurately adjust, so I may never try it out of fear of 

burning the syrup (as I've done with more than one pot of pasta sauce).



>oh- and the "candied" roots are delicious to chew on after they are boiled

>in syrup



Maybe I should try this then...



As an aside... let's remember that Osha is seriously threatened by 

overharvest, and is exceedingly difficult to cultivate.  I've been getting 

mine from Desert Bloom Herbs (www.zianet.com/desertbloom), from Richard 

McDonald (no relation).  He's been wild-cultivating the roots for some time, 

with good results.  Mountain Rose Herbs recently began carrying organic 

Osha, as well.  Please try to get your Osha from an ethical source if you 

use it.



From sc62.charter.net Sun Dec 15 07:16:19 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] Tincture not airtight/Michael Moore

From: "Sandra Cochrane" <sc62.charter.net>

Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 00:16:19 -0500



I noticed that one of my tinctures, sitting since 12/4, was 'leaking',

apparently the lid was not on tight . Will oxygen do it any harm ?

Also, on Michael Moore's site, he lists herbs that are better, or best as

hot infusions, cold overnight infusions, tinctures, etc. The list for the

tinctures is comparatively short compared to all the herbs there are.  What

did he mean?

Under the  list of herbs that you would never want to mix together, is it

because they would cause a bad reaction, or just negate each other?

Thanks,

Sandra C.



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Sun Dec 15 09:18:15 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Tincture not airtight/Michael Moore

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 09:18:15 +0200



"Sandra Cochrane" <sc62.charter.net> wrote to <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>:



> I noticed that one of my tinctures, sitting since 12/4, was 'leaking',

> apparently the lid was not on tight . Will oxygen do it any harm ?



"leaking"? You mean as in tincture all over your cupboard? That'd be strange, if

the bottle was upright... just how hot is it where you are?



If you leave your jar of tincture wide open for a fortnight a _lot_ of your

alcohol evaporates. This makes for weaker tincture which even might start to

ferment.



If you didn't screw the cap all that tightly on your bottle for a fortnight,

that's not a catastrophe. Just don't do it again, for _that_ bottle.



> Also, on Michael Moore's site, he lists herbs that are better, or best as

> hot infusions, cold overnight infusions, tinctures, etc. The list for the

> tinctures is comparatively short compared to all the herbs there are.  What

> did he mean?



Herbs that _must_ be tinctured, as they aren't all that good in teas? There's

not too many; off-hand I can think of plants that have to be used fresh, like

oats in milky seeds, or pulsatilla; and plants that deteriorate if they're kept

as dry herbs, like SJW, Lobelia, and Capsella.



> Under the  list of herbs that you would never want to mix together, is it

> because they would cause a bad reaction, or just negate each other?



What, herbs high in tannins and alkaloids? Tannins bind the alkaloids. If you

combine the two you have something that has neither. If that's what you want

then sure, go ahead and use it. There's a bit of text at the top of each sheet,

don't you read those?



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From soapdoc.squeaky-clean.com Sun Dec 15 09:43:02 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Azulene Source?

From: "Squeaky Clean...Naturally(tm)!" <soapdoc.squeaky-clean.com>

Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 02:43:02 -0500



Hello!



I don't know if you kind folks would know this, but if anyone has a source 

for this can you please let me know?



Thanks in advance!!



Happy Holidays ;-)



Darlene



From timelesstree.earthlink.net Sun Dec 15 14:46:27 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Azulene Source?

From: Elizabeth Scotten Finn <timelesstree.earthlink.net>

Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 07:46:27 -0500



German Chamomile, Matricaria chamomilla, is very high in azulene. 

That's what makes the essential oil blue. Wonderful stuff!



-bek



From violetmoon.mindspring.com Sun Dec 15 19:16:00 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] Azulene Source?

From: "Erica" <violetmoon.mindspring.com>

Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 11:16:00 -0600



Yarrow essential oil is also very blue...I believe it is azulene as

well.



Erica



From plantpeople.triton.net Sun Dec 15 20:45:46 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] wild teeth

From: Joyce Wardwell <plantpeople.triton.net>

Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 13:45:46 -0500 (EST)



> Animals in the wild do _not_ necessarily have wonderful teeth. I've

> got a wolf skull ...(from the Great Lakes region).....in the family >room that has a cavity (among a >couple of others) in a molar that I >can put my thumb into. My raccoon

> skulls also have dental cavities.



The entire great lakes region is a nutritionally barren region.  Poor in phospates, calcium unavailable in widespread acidic and sandy soils, devoid of essential and important trace minerals such as iodine and selenium.  Growing healthy food bearing plants or animals can be quite a challenge in this region... and that's with the agriculturist making an effort to replace missing nutrients to field and stock.



Except in pockets of rich glacial deposits, in this entire region you will generally find higher incidence of diseases associated with chronic deficiency - cavities being only one of the more mild manisfestations.  This is born out in the archeological record of peoples and animals living in this region as well. 



> I was very impressed with the wolf's teeth. I, too, had thought a

> natural diet would pretty much prevent tooth decay.



Animals and plants in the wild are actually more suseptable to mineral depletion and show its effects to a greater extent than those who have resources to nutrients from outside the region.  For example, if there's no iodine in your soil, water or air, there is no iodine in your diet... and you will have problems.



Iodine supplementation in salt is a well known success story to help eliminate the goiter previously prevalent in this area.  However, even still the great lakes region has one of the highest rates of thyroid dysfunction of anywhere in the world.  Iodized salt clearly is not the entire answer for a health thyroid. 



This is why I lean heavily towards working with nutritional deficiency with my clients. In fact, the more passionate they are about eating a fresh locally grown diet, the greater the chance of deficiency, a bit of irony.



Rather than working with otc supplements, I work a lot with seaweeds, out of area nettles and alfalfa with my clients.  Working herbally in this area has shown to me to look on herbs as the butter on the bread.  Without a substantial piece of bread underneath (nutrionally rich diet, exercise, spiritual calm, etc) the herbal therapy is generally not enough, unless it address those concerns - which is the entire problem with the reductionist viewpoint of herbalism that is so prevalent amongst the allopathic community.



I deleted the digest that had the statement that the stories we gave about our chewing food for our babies not seeming detrimental were just that - anecdotal stories ... and therefore easily dismissed by the scientific community.  Personally I don't care if the scientific community accredits anecdotal/empirical evidence or not.  It is only to their loss.  Wiilow bark had been used for eons with empirical evidence showing it relieved pain.  And it will conitnue to work whether or not they "prove" it does.  That they have accepted it as "proven" means little to its efficacy.



I am very hesistant to dismiss out of hand folkloric medicines.  Many odd and creepy remedies provide specific and valuable aid.... leeches, spider webs, horse urine.  Those 3 you may say "oh, yes, they have been proven"  but what about the ones that haven't - horse dung for wounds I believe was mentioned...



Well, let me ask, how is the dung prepared?  How is it applied?  From what kind of horse are we getting the dung from?  What is the posolgy?  If this was indeed an actual therapy, I would hazard that if you looked close you would find value in it.



I am not saying that all folkloric medicine has value.  And clearly when it involves using an endangered species whether plant or animal  it should be discouraged.  Likewise if it involves potentially dangerous results, use should be tempered. But to dismiss any healing methodology out of hand simply because it is merely empirical or anecdotally based only diminishes us all.

Peace, JoyceW   



   

--------------------------------------------- 

Every great Oak Tree, was once just a nut, that stood its ground



From polo.cameron.net Mon Dec 16 17:47:29 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] wild teeth

From: "d.a." <polo.cameron.net>

Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 09:47:29 -0600



Joyce,



    A superb post! My hat off to you. I would like to add, that equine

manure contains tetanus. This is why most horsemen should be vaccinated

against that bug. So, don't anyone be putting it on any wound, at any time!

We run cattle and horses together and have had several steers come down with

tetanus after dehorning. I suspect it was due to contamination with our

horse's manure.



doug



From MARDI2GRAS.aol.com Mon Dec 16 04:18:26 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] shingle help

From: MARDI2GRAS.aol.com

Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 21:18:26 EST



<PRE>I know of a young girl, 15, with cancer. because of the chemo she has 

developed shingles. very painful, taking codine for the pain. What herbal 

remedies may I offer her? Thanks for your time and concern, Debra



From Tazztp.aol.com Mon Dec 16 04:25:07 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Re: michael moore

From: Tazztp.aol.com

Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 21:25:07 EST



sorry about the blank post.  what is the site for michael moore?  i would 

like to check it out.



blessings, teresa



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Mon Dec 16 08:37:52 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Re: michael moore

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:37:52 +0200



Tazztp.aol.com wrote to herb.lists.ibiblio.org:



> sorry about the blank post.  what is the site for michael moore?  i would 

> like to check it out.



A google search for 

   "michael moore" herb

will give it to you.



As will my links page, the herbfaq, my classic texts page, etc. etc. etc.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From sc62.charter.net Mon Dec 16 08:25:41 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] tincture leaked/cold infusion

From: "Sandra Cochrane" <sc62.charter.net>

Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 01:25:41 -0500



Yes, it left a ring on the  counter, and then I noticed the run down the

side. Think the lid may have loosened during shaking. I'm relieved that it's

not a worry.



When M.M. makes cold infusion by leaving it suspended overnight in _room_

temperature water,  does that extract/protect different properties in the

herb,than _starting_ with water _off the boil_, or does it matter?

I make at least one of these infusions every night, sometimes two, a

nourishing one, and a tonifying one, and I've always used the boiled water.



Thanks.

Sandra C.



From dan.awherbals.com Mon Dec 16 19:38:26 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] tincture leaked/cold infusion

From: Dan McDonley <dan.awherbals.com>

Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 09:38:26 -0800



Sandra Cochrane wrote:



>When M.M. makes cold infusion by leaving it suspended overnight in _room_

>temperature water,  does that extract/protect different properties in the

>herb,than _starting_ with water _off the boil_, or does it matter?

>  

>

Actually he says teas really shouldn't be stored for more then 24-36 

hours, cold or hot infusions.. However if you have a client that can't 

do it every night you can have them do it once a week and freeze each 

day's dose..



Dan

dan.awherbals.com



From multiflorum.hotmail.com Mon Dec 16 19:23:13 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Betonica

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:23:13 -0500



Curious about how & whether other people use Wood Betony (stachys betonica). 

  It's probably my most reliable herb I use as a "base" when formulating 

blends for headaches, migraines, concussions, & other tension related 

afflictions of the head & neck.



I know it was traditionally valued greatly for treating digestive concerns 

as well, but have never used it that way.  Anyone have any experiences 

they'd like to share?



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Mon Dec 16 19:44:16 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Betonica

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 19:44:16 +0200



"jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com> wrote to herb.lists.ibiblio.org:



> Curious about how & whether other people use Wood Betony (stachys betonica). 

>   It's probably my most reliable herb I use as a "base" when formulating 

> blends for headaches, migraines, concussions, & other tension related 

> afflictions of the head & neck.

> 

> I know it was traditionally valued greatly for treating digestive concerns 

> as well, but have never used it that way.



Fascinating.



I use it (in teas) as one of the strongest of mint-family anti-inflammatories,

but I don't like the taste all that much. 

That is inflammation as in gut upset, UT infection, flu, etc. etc. etc.



It would probably do well in salves, too, but yech, the smell - that has kept me

from even trying to infuse it in oil. You'd almost think it's a scroph... but

it's in the Lamiaceae alright.



The other Stachys species can all be used the same way; however, Stachys

sylvatica (hedge woundwort) is pretty rare (at least over here), and rather

pretty, so I let that grow.

Stachys palustris (hedge nettle) is an _abundant_ weed on clay soil; that makes

it very easy to find if you know where to look, so I use that.

Stachys officinalis (betony) has to be garden-grown, here.

Stachys byzantina (S. lanata, S. olympica) (lamb's ears) too is a garden

ornamental, and it could probably be used the same as the rest of them, but I

haven't tried it.



The old name for Stachys betonica is Betonica officinalis, or was that the other

way around? Anyway, they're all anti-inflammatories. 



Now I'll have to try the S. palustris with head troubles. Possibly good for

sinusitis and the like too... hmmm.



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From multiflorum.hotmail.com Mon Dec 16 20:00:55 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Betonica

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:00:55 -0500



>I use it (in teas) as one of the strongest of mint-family 

>anti-inflammatories,

>but I don't like the taste all that much.



I love the way Wood Betony tastes... in fact, I've just bottled some "Wood 

Betony Ale".  Like Skullcap, its one of those "weird bitter mints" and I've 

always enjoyed the flavor of both.



>That is inflammation as in gut upset, UT infection, flu, etc. etc. etc.



Wow... never even tought of it that way, always as an antispasmodic... flus? 

  Care to elab on this?



>Now I'll have to try the S. palustris with head troubles. Possibly good for

>sinusitis and the like too... hmmm.



Wood Betony seems, in my experience, to direct its antispasmodic action to 

the head.  A base formula for tension heaches & migraines I use is Wood 

Betony, Black Cohosh & Jamaican Dogwood... you could probably leave out the 

Jamaican Dogwood & it'd still work pretty well.  This works as well or 

better for migraines than anything else anyone who I've given it to has ever 

tried.  Sometimes I'll add or replace ingredients... White Willow, Skullcap, 

Milky Oats if its part of a longterm formula.



Don't really use it much in sinus problems, unless I see the person 

schrunching up the brow when they're talking about what's bothering them... 

that's a clear indication that tension is involved at least as much as the 

state of the tissues.



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Mon Dec 16 21:25:33 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Betonica

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:25:33 +0200



"jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com> wrote to herb.lists.ibiblio.org:



> >That is inflammation as in gut upset, UT infection, flu, etc. etc. etc.

> 

> Wow... never even tought of it that way, always as an antispasmodic... flus? 

>   Care to elab on this?



See, anti-inflammatories. And infections give inflammations. 



Other mint-family anti-inflammatories would be, oh, hyssop, and thyme, and sage,

and glechoma, and and and...



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 30 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From tmueller.bluegrass.net Thu Dec 19 08:01:14 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Betonica

From: "Thomas Mueller" <tmueller.bluegrass.net>

Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 01:01:14 -0500 (EST)



from "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>:



> Curious about how & whether other people use Wood Betony (stachys betonica). 

>   It's probably my most reliable herb I use as a "base" when formulating 

> blends for headaches, migraines, concussions, & other tension related 

> afflictions of the head & neck.



> I know it was traditionally valued greatly for treating digestive concerns 

> as well, but have never used it that way.  Anyone have any experiences 

> they'd like to share?



I have some experience with wood betony but didn't continue because it had no

effect on me, good or bad.  My main "tension related affliction" is in the

chest, though I seem to also have a tension related affliction of longer

standing around the left ankle from an old sprain.



From multiflorum.hotmail.com Tue Dec 17 16:55:30 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Ground Ivy & Tinnitis

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 09:55:30 -0500



Henriette, don't I recall you mentioning you used Ground Ivy for tinnitis?  

Do you know of specific indications that differentiate it from other herbs 

used for this purpose, like Gingko or Black Cohosh?  I'd love to learn more 

uses for this delightful little weed...



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Tue Dec 17 17:42:28 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Ground Ivy & Tinnitis

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 17:42:28 +0200



"jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com> wrote to herb.lists.ibiblio.org:



> Henriette, don't I recall you mentioning you used Ground Ivy for tinnitis?  

> Do you know of specific indications that differentiate it from other herbs 

> used for this purpose, like Gingko or Black Cohosh?  I'd love to learn more 

> uses for this delightful little weed...



Ground ivy is for tinnitus from loud sounds. Try it on _all_ inflammations of

the mucosa of the head, you might be surprised.



It's a cool little plant. Nice taste, too. 



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 40 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From multiflorum.hotmail.com Tue Dec 17 18:24:08 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Ground Ivy & Tinnitis

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 11:24:08 -0500



>Ground ivy is for tinnitus from loud sounds. Try it on _all_ inflammations 

>of

>the mucosa of the head, you might be surprised.

>

>It's a cool little plant. Nice taste, too.



What kind of dosage do you recommend for the infusion or tincture, and what 

duration?  Is it palliative or curative?



I love the taste to.  I often use it to add flavor to teas for coughs, which 

it helps as well.



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Tue Dec 17 19:04:00 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Ground Ivy & Tinnitis

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 19:04:00 +0200



"jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com> wrote to herb.lists.ibiblio.org:



> >Ground ivy is for tinnitus from loud sounds. Try it on _all_ inflammations 

> >of

> >the mucosa of the head, you might be surprised.

> >

> >It's a cool little plant. Nice taste, too.

> 

> What kind of dosage do you recommend for the infusion or tincture, and what 

> duration?  Is it palliative or curative?



Curative. 2-3 cups of tea a day for a couple of months or until the noise stops.

Tea: a teaspoon of dried herb to 2 dl boiling water.



... it takes _lots_, so it's good it's an abundant weed in my garden, eh?



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 40 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From multiflorum.hotmail.com Tue Dec 17 19:40:50 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Ground Ivy & Tinnitis

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:40:50 -0500



>... it takes _lots_, so it's good it's an abundant weed in my garden, eh?



Last spring when I was gathering it  I threw a bunch in a pot with some 

dirt, and whallah!  I've got some nice tasty houseplants I can nibble on or 

make tea with throughout winter.  I pretty much burried a handful of the 

trailing stems, so that I'd get a bunch of new shoots.  Just rooting the 

ends leaves you with one skinny "vine" comin out of a big pot.



From mt_turtle.email.com Tue Dec 17 17:49:12 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Re:PGA

From: "K B" <mt_turtle.email.com>

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 00:49:12 +0900



I live in middle Tennessee where good moonshine is still a respected art.  The trick is in the temperature.  alcohol evaporates at a lower temp. than  water yet at a higher temp than some violates.  While purchasing PGA at the store is much easier, for those who can't get it locally, home production is an option.  Most libraries have, or can get by inter-library loan, a book on home brew. Most books also cover the laws , which are different in different states/countries.

KB

-- 



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From jmission.indy.net Thu Dec 19 05:23:59 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] lamb's ear

From: "J Mission" <jmission.indy.net>

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 21:23:59 -0600



>Stachys byzantina (S. lanata, S. olympica) (lamb's ears) too is a garden

ornamental, and it could probably be used the same as the rest of them, but

I

haven't tried it.<



From what I understand, lamb's ear was used traditionally as bandages for

wounds.  What other things can it be used for?  What kinds of inflammation

would it help?  A while back, I went on a search for herbal uses of lamb's

ear and came up sort of pretty blank - more information is out there about

wood betony than lamb's ear even though they are in the same family.



j



From jclarke1.mn.rr.com Thu Dec 19 18:26:16 2002

To: "Herb.Lists. Ibiblio. Org" <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] Somewhat OT: Moving hundreds of tincture bottles cross country

From: "Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1.mn.rr.com>

Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 10:26:16 -0600



I'm wondering if anyone has some brilliant ideas for moving all my supplies

from MN to AZ next spring. I'm going to try to let my inventory dwindle, but

I imagine I'll still have a couple hundred tincture bottles (1, 2 and 4 oz

size), as well as several dozen gallon jars of dried herbs. Anyone have any

firsthand experience with moving your pharmacopeaia that can offer some

wonderful suggestions? We'll be using a U-haul, but can put more breakable

stuff in the trunk of the car.



Kerry



From multiflorum.hotmail.com Thu Dec 19 19:04:50 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Somewhat OT: Moving hundreds of tincture bottles cross country

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 12:04:50 -0500



>I imagine I'll still have a couple hundred tincture bottles (1, 2 and 4 oz

>size), as well as several dozen gallon jars of dried herbs. Anyone have any

>firsthand experience with moving your pharmacopeaia that can offer some

>wonderful suggestions?



Though I still have yet to find all my bottles from my move in the fall, I'm 

pretty confident they're safe.  I went to the local Whole Foods, and was 

able to get the boxes HerbPharm uses to ship their tinctures.  Each one held 

a dozen -1 ounce- bottles in individual "slots", and then all the boxes can 

be packed into a larger box quite neatly.  To get enough of these boxes 

though, may take some time, especially if you don't have a large health food 

store like whole foods that gets tinctures in quantity.  Good luck!



From elementalclay.webtv.net Thu Dec 19 19:07:17 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Somewhat OT: Moving hundreds of tincture bottles cross

	country

From: elementalclay.webtv.net (Roxanne Brown)

Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:07:17 -0600 (CST)



Kerry,

  Cheap disposable diapers make great padding for smaller fragile items.

Tiny things can be rolled up in multiples.

   I also use the plastic sweater boxes as they can be stacked and are

quite protective.

Roxanne

  



http://www.elementalgallery.com

Look not for Wealth in the Glitter of Gold

      But in your Grandmother's Smile



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Thu Dec 19 19:12:13 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Somewhat OT: Moving hundreds of tincture bottles cross country

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:12:13 +0200



"Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1.mn.rr.com> wrote:



> I'm wondering if anyone has some brilliant ideas for moving all my supplies

> from MN to AZ next spring. I'm going to try to let my inventory dwindle, but

> I imagine I'll still have a couple hundred tincture bottles (1, 2 and 4 oz

> size), as well as several dozen gallon jars of dried herbs. Anyone have any

> firsthand experience with moving your pharmacopeaia that can offer some

> wonderful suggestions?



Put the tinctures in plastic bottles (pint and half-pint bottles are nice; your

coop might have them for selling bulk shampoos and such in). Put the plastic

bottles into comfy-sized ziplock baggies. Pack tightly into boxes.



VERY few of those bottles will leak, even if the boxes are accidentally dropped;

and the tinctures that do leak are caught in their ziplock bags and can be

salvaged from those. So there's no mess, _and_ you have 99 % of your tinctures

at the other end, where you can put them back into glass bottles.

Note: write the names of your tinctures both on the ziplock bag and on a label

on the plastic bottle.



Wash your now empty glass bottles, wrap the lot in paper, and pack them tightly

in their own box(es). No loss of tincture even if one or the other of those

bottles break.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 40 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From HerbalSW.aol.com Fri Dec 20 00:10:02 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Somewhat OT: Moving hundreds of tincture bottles cross country

From: HerbalSW.aol.com

Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 17:10:02 EST



Did you keep the boxes in which the bottles came?  That would probably be the 

easiest?



Catherine M. Wood, LCSW, CADC, ADS

Eagle Spirit Healing Center

Where Your Spirit Learns To Soar

www.eaglespirithealingcenter.com



From mt_turtle.email.com Thu Dec 19 20:07:05 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Re:lamb's ear

From: "K B" <mt_turtle.email.com>

Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 03:07:05 +0900



as it is astringent, mildly antibacterial and (when dried as whole leaf)absorbant, it was used as a packing for deep stab-type wounds (such as knife and sword).  It absorbed drainage, kept the wound open so it closed from the bottom, and help reduce inflamation and fight infection.

KB



-- 



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From kchisholm.ca.inter.net Thu Dec 19 20:35:42 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] Re:lamb's ear

From: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm.ca.inter.net>

Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 14:35:42 -0400



Dear KB

----- Original Message -----

From: "K B" <mt_turtle.email.com>



> as it is astringent, mildly antibacterial and (when dried as whole

leaf)absorbant, it was used as a packing for deep stab-type wounds (such as

knife and sword).



I can visualize that there would be a big call for Lamb's Ears about 400

years ago, but I wouldn't have felt that anyone could make a living healing

sword wounds now-a-days. :-)



Kevin



From multiflorum.hotmail.com Fri Dec 20 00:03:47 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Re:lamb's ear

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 17:03:47 -0500



>I can visualize that there would be a big call for Lamb's Ears about 400

>years ago, but I wouldn't have felt that anyone could make a living healing

>sword wounds now-a-days. :-)



That makes me think of a funny story... Not far from where I live, they hold 

an annual Renaissance Festival with lots of craftspeople & performers.  

Playing music with some of them one night, I got to talking with a couple of 

the jousters, who said they owed their lives to Arnica, Plantain, & Yarrow, 

which they used liberally to treat the rather astounding injuries that come 

with hitting each other repeatedly with swords, getting thrown from horses, 

and other battlefield blunders.  I'll have to fill them in on the lamb's ear 

next fall...



From elementalclay.webtv.net Fri Dec 20 10:29:13 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] False caper ??

From: elementalclay.webtv.net (Roxanne Brown)

Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 02:29:13 -0600 (CST)



Kirsty,

  This plant caught my attention.

  I found two possibles.  Euphorbia terracina, called false caper and

Euphorbia lathrus commonly called wart weed.

Roxanne



http://www.elementalgallery.com

Look not for Wealth in the Glitter of Gold

      But in your Grandmother's Smile



From tassbaby.senet.com.au Sat May 03 09:56:58 2003

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] False caper ??

From: tassbaby.senet.com.au

Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:59:53 +101800



I recently had anecdotal and first hand usage of a common garden weed (well, 

common here in south australia)called false caper - the sap of which is used 

for skin growths (Which, judging by a sample size of 2, works very well - 

allthough is very messy - for flat, brown, skin warts, both on elderly 

gentlemen - the sap was applied three times per day for three days only - the 

warty skin growth got sore, weepy, very smelly and appeared to literally "rot" 

in on its self, swell up, crust over and then drop off with fresh, smooth skin 

and no scar beneath - all in about 1 week) - I'm trying to find out more 

information about it - my local nursery said it was a Euphorbia but was unsure 

of what species - it definately looks like a type of euphorbia, although in the 

past I've always pulled it out as a valueless wees in my ornamental garden so 

have never let it grow to any grat size - would anyone have any ideas of what 

it could be or experience with it ??



Kirsty



-------------------------------------------------

This mail sent through SE Net Webmail

http://webmail.senet.com.au

 



From krw97.juno.com Fri Dec 20 16:02:45 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Horny Goat Weed

From: krw97.juno.com

Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:02:45 -0500



Has anyone had any experience with this?  I've taken this in a pill that

had a few other things in it & it makes me dizzy & really makes me feel

bad.



From williamj.nac.net Sat Dec 21 01:14:12 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] Horny Goat Weed

From: "Bill Jacobson" <williamj.nac.net>

Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:14:12 -0500



It is probably the yohimbe or other things in it that make you feel bad.  I

take the herb alone in capsule form, buying the herb and making my own

capsules.  Also if you want a punch like Viagra buy the herb in extract form

and chew the capsule and leave under your tongue for rapid effect.  But I

have taken it in 1000 mg caps twice a day with my other regulars for years

and without any ill effects.  It seems to help offset an aging libido..  But

the capsules that have lots of things locked into them often are just

terrible.  Alternatively Muriana purans is a helpful addition for it

increases sensitivity and has no side effects like yohimbe.  It, too, can be

taken ine extract form, chewed and popped under the tongue about 30 minutes

before love-making.  I do assume that this is why you are taking horny goat

weed.  That is the way Viagra should be taken as well, by chewing it.  I

learned this at the Veterans pharmacy, of all places!



Bill

----- From: <krw97.juno.com>

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 9:02 AM

Subject: [Herb] Horny Goat Weed



> Has anyone had any experience with this?  I've taken this in a pill that

> had a few other things in it & it makes me dizzy & really makes me feel

> bad.



From mccoy.newsguy.com Sun Dec 22 22:18:06 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Horny Goat Weed

From: Anya <mccoy.newsguy.com>

Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 15:18:06 -0500



At 06:14 PM 12/20/2002 -0500, you wrote:

>It is probably the yohimbe or other things in it that make you feel bad.  I

>take the herb alone in capsule form, buying the herb and making my own

>capsules.



Isn't horny goat weed the same thing that Jamaicans call 'ram goat dash

along'? Turnera aphrodisiaca?  Or is the the Chinese herb Epimedium

grandiflorum? There is some confusion in the literature, you know, and they

both have aphrodisicial properties. 



I've studied, but am not familiar with the Chinese herb, because I only

came across it in an ethnobotanical study I'm not beginning in South

Florida on Caribbean and MesoAmerican herbs found/used here. The Turnera is

a common landscape plant here, and both men and women use it to increase

libido. Actually, the Jamaicans use many, many plants and soups and

whatevers to increase libido, they're definitely focused on the  lower

chakras :-)

  

Anya

http://member.newsguy.com/~herblady

(c)



From williamj.nac.net Sun Dec 22 23:45:03 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] Horny Goat Weed

From: "Bill Jacobson" <williamj.nac.net>

Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:45:03 -0500



----- Original Message -----

From: "Anya" <mccoy.newsguy.com>

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 3:18 PM

Subject: Re: [Herb] Horny Goat Weed

>.



Isn't horny goat weed the same thing that Jamaicans call 'ram goat dash

along'? Turnera aphrodisiaca?  Or is the the Chinese herb Epimedium

grandiflorum? .

http://member.newsguy.com/~herblady

(c)



I assumed the original writter meant Epimedium grandiforum.  iT TAKES A LOT

OF IT TO MAKE AN ImMEDIATE DIFFERENCE, THAT IS REALLY NOTICABLE.  Which is

why I recommended taking the extract if the person really wanted a bang like

viagra.



I also take Damiana, Tunera aphrodisica.  tHIS REALLY DOESN'T DO MUCH IN THE

DEPARTYMENT OF THE LIBIDO,...THOUGH I've never taken it in an extract or

concentrated form.  It works very well as a mood equalizer or balancer for

me.  reEACTIONS TO THE HERB ARE PRETTY INDIVIDUAL..FOR SOME PEOPLE SAY IT

MAKES THEM FLIGHTY OR EDGEY.  fOR ME IT JUST KEEPS ME AT A NICE PLACE, A LOT

BETTER THAN pROZAC.  i TAKE THAT IN TWO CAPS OF 1000mg in separate doses

along with the horny goat weed..actually I now take it in a direct herbal

mixture that I stir into my veggie juice twice a day.I take a lot of my

daily herbs this way now ,having tired of making capsules.  I have no idea

if this is as good as taking teas but I think my daily herbs in tea form

would drown me.And the herb in powder form give me a lot of fibre.  After

the new year I might try making tinctures.



If you have some recipies for Jamaican Soup you mentioned I would like to

get a copy.  You can write me privately , if you wish.



I would like very much to meet up with someone in the area where Damiana

(Turnera)grows, especially along the Texas Border to Mexico. around

Brownsville, where I pass by twice a year on my way to and back from Mexico.

I would like someone to show me how it looks growing in the wild, etc so I

can gather my own.  I know it has to be picked when the bush is in flower.

Unfortunately photos I have seen give me no sense of what to look for fifty

feet away.



Bill



From HerbalSW.aol.com Sat Dec 21 01:40:11 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] St John's Wort Oil

From: HerbalSW.aol.com

Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:40:11 EST



Hello, all:

I just came across some SJW oil which has been in a jar for almost a year now 

unopened and in the dark.  Amy thoughts on it's effectiveness.  

I opened it (it had been vacuum packed) and it smells fine.

Whaddy think?

Thanks in advance

Catherine



Catherine M. Wood, LCSW, CADC, ADS

Eagle Spirit Healing Center

Where Your Spirit Learns To Soar

www.eaglespirithealingcenter.com



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Sat Dec 21 10:52:16 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] St John's Wort Oil

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:52:16 +0200



HerbalSW.aol.com wrote to herb.lists.ibiblio.org:



> I just came across some SJW oil which has been in a jar for almost a year now 

> unopened and in the dark.  Amy thoughts on it's effectiveness.  

> I opened it (it had been vacuum packed) and it smells fine.



If it's not rancid, it's fine. 



I've had SJW oil (strained, no herb in it) in a cupboard for five years without

going rancid.



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 40 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From HerbalSW.aol.com Sat Dec 21 14:00:30 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] St John's Wort Oil

From: HerbalSW.aol.com

Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 07:00:30 EST



Cool, Henriette

Thanks

Catherine



Catherine M. Wood, LCSW, CADC, ADS

Eagle Spirit Healing Center

Where Your Spirit Learns To Soar

www.eaglespirithealingcenter.com



From sc62.charter.net Mon Dec 23 18:51:18 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] Ginseng

From: "Sandra Cochrane" <sc62.charter.net>

Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:51:18 -0500



I would like to order some dried ginseng, but since it is so costly, I

wonder if someone could advise me on the best quality for the price.

And best uses for it.

I read that it was a 'man's' herb, that dong quai, or angelica sinensis was

the female compliment. I'm not sure about this.

Thanks.

Sandra



From multiflorum.hotmail.com Mon Dec 23 19:29:27 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Ginseng

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 12:29:27 -0500



>I would like to order some dried ginseng, but since it is so costly, I

>wonder if someone could advise me on the best quality for the price.

>And best uses for it.

>I read that it was a 'man's' herb, that dong quai, or angelica sinensis was

>the female compliment. I'm not sure about this.



This fall I bought a half pound of fresh ginseng from Harding's Ginseng in 

Maryland, and the quality was excellent.  The roots were a minimum of 8 

years old, started from wild seed and grown "wild simulated", which means 

woodsgrown, but in undisturbed forest soil, not in cultivated beds.  When 

the roots have to "work harder", competing with other roots, stones, and the 

like, they grow stronger (kind of like when people have to work harder).



As far as the "man's herb"/"woman's herb" thing goes, I find that such 

labels are both simplifying & misleading, and very often the result of 

trying to market herbs to specific genders.  Dong Quai is marketed as 

"Women's Ginseng" to supply name recognition for consumers (who say, "Oh, I 

erad how good this is for women in ____________").  Knowing that something 

is a woman's herb tells you very, very little about what the plant does, and 

definitely doesn't provide a sound basis for using it.  Again, this is a 

result of herbal product companies supplying generic information for 

marketing purposes to stimulate sales.  Most of these companies are run by 

supplement companies, not by herbalists, and for them, our beloved plants 

are just a commodity to sell & profit from.



While an emmenogogue certainly won't stimulate uterine contractions in men, 

many women's herbs are quite useful in treating both genders, if you take 

the time to learn what the herb does, as opposed to just learning that it's 

"good for women" or "good for men".  Using Black Cohosh as an example, it's 

estrogenic properties are only a portion of its medicinal virtues, and it 

can be used to treat dull aches in the loins of both sexes quite 

effectively.  When a man feels tender, sore & achey in the groin, Black 

Cohosh can be a godsend.  Offering a more problematic example, Motherwort is 

also a "woman's herb", and included in many "women's formulas", but it may 

be contraindicated in women with hypothyroid conditions...  How many of 

those women are uing it daily because they've heard its a "woman's herb" and 

know little else about it?  KNOWLEDGE is the key.



As far as Ginseng goes, it will help to build energy in women or men, though 

it should be used as an adjunct to other therapies, so as not to simply be a 

stimulant to make up for a deficient lifestyle.  I'm sure others can 

elaborate much more on its use.



From williamj.nac.net Sat Dec 28 04:58:47 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] Ginseng

From: "Bill Jacobson" <williamj.nac.net>

Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 21:58:47 -0500



----- Original Message -----

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 12:29 PM

Subject: Re: [Herb] Ginseng

>

> This fall I bought a half pound of fresh ginseng from Harding's Ginseng in

> Maryland, and the quality was excellent.  The roots were a minimum of 8

> years old, started from wild seed and grown "wild simulated", which means

> woodsgrown, but in undisturbed forest soil, not in cultivated beds.  When

> the roots have to "work harder", competing with other roots, stones, and

the

> like, they grow stronger (kind of like when people have to work harder).



Jim, send me Harding's address if you can.  Also how do you use the fresh

Ginseng?  or do you dry it?  I've only used the dried herb.



Bill



From asackett.artsackett.com Sat Dec 28 05:00:43 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Ginseng

From: Art Sackett <asackett.artsackett.com>

Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 20:00:43 -0700



On Fri, Dec 27, 2002 at 09:58:47PM -0500, Bill Jacobson wrote:



> Jim, send me Harding's address if you can.  Also how do you use the fresh

> Ginseng?  or do you dry it?  I've only used the dried herb.



You might try http://www.hardingsginsengfarm.com/ (nci)



-- 

----   Art Sackett   ----



From chs.cpplus1.com Sat Dec 28 19:01:40 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] Ginseng

From: "chs" <chs.cpplus1.com>

Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 09:01:40 -0800



Please elaborate on the contraindication of motherwort.  Thanks.

Cherie



-----Original Message-----

From: herb-admin.lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:herb-admin.lists.ibiblio.org]

On Behalf Of jim mcdonald

Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 9:29 AM

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Ginseng



  Offering a more problematic example, Motherwort is 

also a "woman's herb", and included in many "women's formulas", but it

may 

be contraindicated in women with hypothyroid conditions... 



From multiflorum.hotmail.com Sat Dec 28 19:16:45 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Ginseng

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 12:16:45 -0500



>Jim, send me Harding's address if you can.  Also how do you use the fresh

>Ginseng?  or do you dry it?  I've only used the dried herb.

>

>Bill



http://www.hardingsginsengfarm.com



I have a fresh tincture fetish.  I'd made a dry root Ginseng tincture and 

wanted to make a fresh root tincture to compare.  I like the fresh better, 

but it could be all pychological (a self fulfilling fetish).  I really, 

though, only have a cursary knowledge of the use of Ginseng; I made the 

tincture for a friend as an Xmas present.  I'm sure many others could offer 

much more concrete indications than I could.



From sc62.charter.net Sat Dec 28 21:33:18 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] Ginseng

From: "Sandra C." <sc62.charter.net>

Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 14:33:18 -0500



Sorry just getting back to the response to my query about ginseng, but

didn't receive the list for several days, for some reason, and only found

that it was answered  by going to the archives.

 I since have found information concerning the adverse effects of ginseng,

such as ,not combining with _caffeine_,(tea also has iron, which is not a

good combination) also, because it stresses the adrenals, headaches,

nervousness, inflammatory conditions and bronchitis, irregular heartbeat,

etc. etc.............called the "ginseng abuse syndrome".

I would be using it for stress, which would require a tonic, but would be

afraid to chance increasing the other problems.

 On the positive side, the thought that ginsengs work on the limbic system,

the emotional center of the brain, at the center of which is the

hypothalamus gland, called the 'master gland', because it tells the other

glands what to do,    is encouraging.

 Because, the hypothalamus can _over-react _to stress.

Also understand that Siberian ginseng is not a panax, not really a ginseng

at all, but an adaptogen/tonic, which would be high in the stress-modifying

properties.

 Is all this applicable to the dried as well as the fresh? Would a ginseng

tincture be a good (better, best) medium for stress? I've also read of just

putting the fresh root in a jar of menstruem, and drinking from that.

Only  concerned about the caffeine aspect, as tea is my only vice.

I use the herbal Rooibus tea, which does not contain caffeine, but is quite

rich  and sweet to use solely.



Be Well,



Sandra C.



From cyli.visi.com Sat Dec 28 22:26:33 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Ginseng

From: "Cyli" <cyli.visi.com>

Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 14:26:33 -0600



Mail message body



> Also understand that Siberian ginseng is not a panax, not really a ginseng

> at all, but an adaptogen/tonic, which would be high in the stress-modifying

> properties.



I was beginning to wonder when someone would bring up ginseng not 

being just one kind of plant.  Since there are 3, I thought someone 

would clarify if I was reading about American, Siberian, or Korean, 

all of which I've read have differing uses.



From hkobayas.students.uiuc.edu Mon Dec 23 19:37:04 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Re: Horny Goat Weed

From: hkobayas <hkobayas.students.uiuc.edu>

Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:37:04 -0600



Something may be lost in translation, but the character Chinese use for this 

herb is sheep, not goat. I could be wrong, though.



Hideka



<Isn't horny goat weed the same thing that Jamaicans call 'ram goat dash 

along'? Turnera aphrodisiaca?  Or is the the Chinese herb Epimedium 

grandiflorum? There is some confusion in the literature, you know, and they 

both have aphrodisicial properties.=20>



From missing.citilink.com Mon Dec 23 20:11:44 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Re: Ginseng

From: missing.citilink.com

Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 12:11:44 -0600



Hello Sandra,

My favorite supplier is also online. I used to visit in person when I lived 

near them, and still do when I am in the area.  They sell herbs and books 

and other stuff.  The price list is negotiable on large quantities of herbs 

if you ask about quantity.  They have a good selection of Chinese herbs as 

well.  A very interesting place to visit.  This place resembles the study 

and work areas of some grand wizard with all the book cases and an entire 

wall of herbs.  Generally when I'd visit there was music playing and a 

scent of incense in the air.

www.presentmoment.com



dong quai is nicknamed "ladies ginseng"  I have heard of Chinese families 

making a soup one time a year which is a tonic and promotes good health 

made from Ginseng, dong quai, and astragulus.



A common usage is powdered in capsules.  Present Moment also sells the 

empty capsules.  I like the idea of the tonic annual soup.



>From: "Sandra Cochrane" <sc62.charter.net>

>To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

>Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:51:18 -0500

>Subject: [Herb] Ginseng

>Reply-To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

>

>I would like to order some dried ginseng, but since it is so costly, I

>wonder if someone could advise me on the best quality for the price.

>And best uses for it.

>I read that it was a 'man's' herb, that dong quai, or angelica sinensis was

>the female compliment. I'm not sure about this.

>Thanks.

>Sandra



From jclarke1.mn.rr.com Mon Dec 23 20:18:44 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] Re: Ginseng

From: "Kerry & Jack" <jclarke1.mn.rr.com>

Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 12:18:44 -0600



If you're in the Minneapolis area, I prefer Magus books for ginseng over

Present Moment, which, IME, charges a LOT more for many things than other

places. They used to retail some of my herbal products and charged 3-4 times

more than my other retailers (and myself) and then wondered why they didn't

sell very well. I still love the place, though(live 3 blocks away so I go

there often).



Kerry



-----Original Message-----

From: herb-admin.lists.ibiblio.org

[mailto:herb-admin.lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of missing.citilink.com



Hello Sandra,

My favorite supplier is also online. I used to visit in person when I lived

near them, and still do when I am in the area.  They sell herbs and books

and other stuff.  The price list is negotiable on large quantities of herbs

if you ask about quantity.  They have a good selection of Chinese herbs as

well.  A very interesting place to visit.  This place resembles the study

and work areas of some grand wizard with all the book cases and an entire

wall of herbs.  Generally when I'd visit there was music playing and a

scent of incense in the air.

www.presentmoment.com



From plantpeople.triton.net Tue Dec 24 13:40:55 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] wood betony

From: Joyce Wardwell <plantpeople.triton.net>

Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 06:40:55 -0500 (EST)



>Curious about how & whether other people use Wood Betony (stachys >betonica). It's probably my most reliable herb I use as a "base" >when formulating blends for headaches, migraines, concussions, & >other tension related afflictions of the head & neck.



My first exposure to this herb was with a healer that used it as part of treatment for long term recovery of a spinal cord injury, in combination with St. Johnswort and oatstraw.  If swelling/inflammation is present, boneset was added. 



I have since used this combination with stroke victems during rehab to help re-establish neural pathways (in combination with physical therapy of course).  And in the long term care of a young man who has had suffered brain damage from a high fever.  



It is hard to say how much helps it gives.  As with any nervous system repair, improvement is slow.  However, in the half a dozen clients I have worked with, improvement was seen and in each instance exceeded physician expectations for recovery.

Happy holidays everyone

JoyceW



Every great Oak Tree, was once just a nut, that stood its ground



From herbgatherer.hotmail.com Tue Dec 24 18:57:35 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] wood betony

From: "Pamela Quayle" <herbgatherer.hotmail.com>

Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 11:57:35 -0500



> I have since used this combination with stroke victems during rehab to

help re-establish neural pathways (in combination with physical therapy of

course).  And in the long term care of a young man who has had suffered

brain damage from a high fever.



Do you think wood betony would be a good herb to use for the CNS damage from

Lyme Disease?  This case is just coming off six weeks of antibiotics that

weren't started until 2 months after the tick bite.  The nervous system

symptoms have been quite strong.  I'm planning to follow up with teasel,

astragalus and a nervous system tonic.  I was thinking of Avena sativa, but

have never used wood betony and am wondering if anyone thinks it might be

specific to this type of damage.



Pamela



From terese.stewart.insightbb.com Thu Dec 26 20:20:44 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] scleroderma

From: "Terese Stewart" <terese.stewart.insightbb.com>

Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 13:20:44 -0500



Hello to all,



I have recently been diagnosed with a disease called scleroderma. there is

no cure from what I have been told, but I was wondering if any of you know

any herbal remedies that might help.



Terese



From mterry.snet.net Thu Dec 26 20:29:31 2002

To: "herb.lists.ibiblio.org" <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] GRAPESEED OIL

From: May Terry <mterry.snet.net>

Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 13:29:31 -0500



Does anyone know what the shelf life of grapeseed oil is?  I have read

wildly varying estimates, from 3 months to 2 years.  Of course I know

that storage makes a big difference--I'm speaking of room temperature in

moderate climates, refrigeration in the heat of the summer.



Thanks,

May

--

The time is always right to do what is right.  ---Martin Luther King,

Jr.



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Thu Dec 26 22:11:26 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] GRAPESEED OIL

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 22:11:26 +0200



May Terry <mterry.snet.net> wrote:



> Does anyone know what the shelf life of grapeseed oil is?  I have read

> wildly varying estimates, from 3 months to 2 years.  Of course I know

> that storage makes a big difference--I'm speaking of room temperature in

> moderate climates, refrigeration in the heat of the summer.



1. you can't get it organically grown

2. you can't get it cold-pressed

3. it doesn't contain any vitamin E to speak of. (Vit. E slows rancidity).



For me, two five-liter jars have gone rancid less than half a year after I

bought'em, fairly fresh - same year's harvest.



That's two jars too many, and I no longer use grapeseed oil - especially as

using grapeseed oil in salves means these salves won't last as long as ones made

from better oils.



So it's better to use sesame or safflower oils, which are available both

organically grown and cold-pressed, and which contain loads of vitamin E.



If, however, you're using grapeseed oil as a massage oil, sure, go ahead --

until it turns rancid, that is. Grapeseed oil is very light - it's absorbed into

the skin just as fast as sesame and safflower oil are.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 40 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From mterry.snet.net Fri Dec 27 03:29:55 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] GRAPESEED OIL

From: May Terry <mterry.snet.net>

Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 20:29:55 -0500



Henriette Kress wrote:



> 1. you can't get it organically grown

> 2. you can't get it cold-pressed

> 3. it doesn't contain any vitamin E to speak of. (Vit. E slows rancidity).

>

> For me, two five-liter jars have gone rancid less than half a year after I

> bought'em, fairly fresh - same year's harvest.

>

> That's two jars too many, and I no longer use grapeseed oil - especially as

> using grapeseed oil in salves means these salves won't last as long as ones made

> from better oils.

>

> So it's better to use sesame or safflower oils, which are available both

> organically grown and cold-pressed, and which contain loads of vitamin E.

>

> If, however, you're using grapeseed oil as a massage oil, sure, go ahead --

> until it turns rancid, that is. Grapeseed oil is very light - it's absorbed into

> the skin just as fast as sesame and safflower oil are.



Thanks, Henriette.  I used to use grapeseed in salves, and it was so astonishingly

non-greasy that I was thinking about trying it again.  I never used to keep anything

around long enough for it to get rancid.  Now I'd like to make some larger

quantities, though.



So you are implying that sesame and safflower are as non-greasy as grapeseed?  I've

never used either.  I have been using fractionated coconut oil, which has a very

long shelf life.  I've also used jojoba, which is lovely but very expensive.  If

either sesame or safflower was as light as grapeseed, I'd definitely use it.



May

--

The time is always right to do what is right.  ---Martin Luther King, Jr.



From teragram.silcom.com Fri Dec 27 07:09:29 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] GRAPESEED OIL

From: "TeraGram" <teragram.silcom.com>

Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 21:09:29 -0800



Regarding Grapeseed Oil, Henriette said:



> 1. you can't get it organically grown

> 2. you can't get it cold-pressed

> 3. it doesn't contain any vitamin E to speak of. (Vit. E slows rancidity).



I have bought organically grown, cold pressed grapeseed oil from a company

local to me.  I am in California wine country so it should come as no

surprise that such things are available *here*.  However, I did a cursory

chck on the 'net and found other vendors of such.



As to the Vitamin E, what did you mean by that?



Oil	                 Alpha-Tocopherol, mg per 100 gram sample



Sesame	                                  1.4

Grapeseed	                                 28.8

Safflower, linoleic over 70%	               34.1

Safflower, oleic over 70%	               34.1



So, grapeseed has quite a bit, a lot more than sesame!  Were you referring

to a different tocopherol or perhaps one of the tocotrienols?



- T.



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Fri Dec 27 09:40:58 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] GRAPESEED OIL

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 09:40:58 +0200



"TeraGram" <teragram.silcom.com> wrote to <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>:



> So, grapeseed has quite a bit, a lot more than sesame!  Were you referring

> to a different tocopherol or perhaps one of the tocotrienols?



If you can get cold-pressed, perhaps that's your answer. I know sesame and

safflower oils haven't gone rancid on me; grapeseed oil has.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 40 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From tmueller.bluegrass.net Mon Dec 30 03:36:55 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] GRAPESEED OIL

From: "Thomas Mueller" <tmueller.bluegrass.net>

Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 20:36:55 -0500 (EST)



> If, however, you're using grapeseed oil as a massage oil, sure, go ahead --

> until it turns rancid, that is. Grapeseed oil is very light - it's absorbed into

> the skin just as fast as sesame and safflower oil are.



> Henriette



Would there be a difference in shelf life between food-grade and cosmetic-grade

grapeseed oil?  I have Frontier grapeseed oil, labeled "aromatherapy", "for

cosmetic use only", for use as a carrier oil with aromatherapy essential oils.



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Mon Dec 30 09:27:16 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] GRAPESEED OIL

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 09:27:16 +0200



"Thomas Mueller" <tmueller.bluegrass.net> wrote to herb.lists.ibiblio.org:



> > If, however, you're using grapeseed oil as a massage oil, sure, go ahead --

> > until it turns rancid, that is. Grapeseed oil is very light - it's absorbed into

> > the skin just as fast as sesame and safflower oil are.

> 

> Would there be a difference in shelf life between food-grade and cosmetic-grade

> grapeseed oil?  I have Frontier grapeseed oil, labeled "aromatherapy", "for

> cosmetic use only", for use as a carrier oil with aromatherapy essential oils.



It's probable that this oil is not cold-pressed. I'm not sure what kind of

solvents (if any) they use to get the oil out of the seeds.



Grapeseed oil as cheap as it is (half the price of the cheapest cold-pressed

oils) because it's a byproduct of wine production; there, it is _impossible_

(I'm told) to get cold-pressed. And, as there's no organically produced wine

(over here, at least, where the general public in wine-buying is strangely

fickle about "organically grown wine") there is also no organic grapeseed oil.

(Even if, I'm told, _lots_ of winegrowers do things organically... but they're

not certified and they won't try for organically produced certificates as it

brings nothing at all in demand or higher prices.)



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 40 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From williamj.nac.net Mon Dec 30 18:45:02 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] GRAPESEED OIL

From: "Bill Jacobson" <williamj.nac.net>

Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:45:02 -0500



I have been buying and using grapeseed oil for three years, it is Italian

grapeseed oil, solvent free, and is distributed in 5 litter cans for about

$23.American.  I have never had this go rancid, even through summer heat

here reaches 90 degrees often.  Supposedly the metal can keeps it from

light.  I use about one tin per year, mostly for cooking and salads.  The

tin says it is high in Vit E and Omega 6.  It is listed at

www.grapeseedoil.com



The thought that it is not  safe has never occurred to me for it is marketed

through my Food Coop and it is distributed as an oil for cooking.



Bill

----- Original Message -----

From: "Thomas Mueller" <tmueller.bluegrass.net>

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 8:36 PM

Subject: Re: [Herb] GRAPESEED OIL



> > If, however, you're using grapeseed oil as a massage oil, sure, go

ahead --

> > until it turns rancid, that is. Grapeseed oil is very light - it's

absorbed into

> > the skin just as fast as sesame and safflower oil are.

>

> > Henriette

>

> Would there be a difference in shelf life between food-grade and

cosmetic-grade

> grapeseed oil?  I have Frontier grapeseed oil, labeled "aromatherapy",

"for

> cosmetic use only", for use as a carrier oil with aromatherapy essential

oils.



From drkelly.icdc.com Fri Dec 27 21:10:10 2002

To: terese.stewart.insightbb.com, Herb List <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] "Incurable" Scleroderma

From: "Dr. Kelly" <drkelly.icdc.com>

Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 14:10:10 -0500



Don't ever believe "no cure."  If you do, it will definitely be incurable.



For info on possible causes and treatment, go to:



http://www.edgarcayce.org/health/database/chdata/index.html



Click "Diseases" then click "Scleroderma"



This is a start.



UV light blood treatment is sometimes used as a treatment.  This is a 

site that explains it:  http://www.fflt.org/ltover.htm



You can also contact Victoria Pendragon, who dealt with "incurable" 

scleroderma and is fine now through a combination of herbs, medical 

treatment and spiritual and mental healing techniques. She may be able 

to give you helpful information on helping yourself.



victoria.victoriapendragon.org



God bless you.      LK



From multiflorum.hotmail.com Sat Dec 28 19:12:45 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: RE: [Herb] Motherwort possibly contraindicated in hypothyroism

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 12:12:45 -0500



>Please elaborate on the contraindication of motherwort.  Thanks.



The contraindications for Motherwort are pretty much theoretically based; 

its used to help relax an overactive thyroid, and so may furthur depress a 

sluggish thyroid.  I've not heard or read anyone state that it is 

specifically contraindicated in such situations, and it may very well be one 

of those herbs that seems to adjust amphoterically to relax or stimulate 

activity as needed, but I'd rather not just presume it does so and 

potentially complicated an already complicated imbalance like 

hypothyroidism.  Easier to just leave Motherwort out of the picture and 

avoid any potential dilemmas.



From Juliesjames.aol.com Sun Dec 29 21:26:40 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: [Herb] Motherwort-Melissa too

From: Juliesjames.aol.com

Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:26:40 EST



In a message dated 12/28/02 9:15:57 AM, multiflorum.hotmail.com writes:



>its used to help relax an overactive thyroid, and so may furthur depress

>a 

>sluggish thyroid.  I've not heard or read anyone state that it is 

>specifically contraindicated in such situations, and it may very well be

>one 

>of those herbs that seems to adjust amphoterically to relax or stimulate

>

>activity as needed, but I'd rather not just presume it does so and 

>potentially complicated an already complicated imbalance like 

>hypothyroidism.  Easier to just leave Motherwort out of the picture and

>

>avoid any potential dilemmas.



Melissa falls in this category as well. Shame, really-it's easy to avoid 

motherwort, nasty tasting stuff that it is (wonderful cardio/emmenagogue, 

though), but the lovely, multitalented and yummy Melissa.....



Julie James



From chs.cpplus1.com Tue Dec 31 04:16:44 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: RE: [Herb] Motherwort-Melissa too

From: "chs" <chs.cpplus1.com>

Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:16:44 -0800



Well, and rosemary and flavonoids, also.  I have only read one article

on this and would like to get some more references.  Since I have a low

thyroid, I have started taking Vit. C/biof in the evening (thyroid in

the morning) and have eliminated melissa and rosemary from my herb diet.

I was not aware of the leonurus problem before.

Anybody seen more info on this?  Thanks.



Cherie (a new member, thanks, Henriette)



Melissa falls in this category as well. Shame, really-it's easy to avoid



motherwort, nasty tasting stuff that it is (wonderful

cardio/emmenagogue, 

though), but the lovely, multitalented and yummy Melissa.....



Julie James



From multiflorum.hotmail.com Tue Dec 31 05:16:08 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: RE: [Herb] Motherwort-Melissa too

From: "jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com>

Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 22:16:08 -0500



>I have a low

>thyroid, and have eliminated melissa and rosemary from my herb diet.

>I was not aware of the leonurus problem before.

>Anybody seen more info on this?  Thanks.



-POSSIBLE- problem... I brought up motherwort as potentially being 

contraindicated for hypothyroid conditions based on unsubstantiated 

conjecture, and don't want that to be passed on as having "real-life 

merit"... It may, but it may not.  Ideally, someone with first hand insight 

can comment on this to share what experience may have taught.



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Tue Dec 31 10:15:51 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Motherwort-Melissa too

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:15:51 +0200



"jim mcdonald" <multiflorum.hotmail.com> wrote to herb.lists.ibiblio.org:



> -POSSIBLE- problem... I brought up motherwort as potentially being 

> contraindicated for hypothyroid conditions based on unsubstantiated 

> conjecture, and don't want that to be passed on as having "real-life 

> merit"... It may, but it may not.  Ideally, someone with first hand insight 

> can comment on this to share what experience may have taught.



I think I'll give motherwort to one of my hypothyroid ladies. She's a practising

homeopath and open to experiments of this kind.



I wouldn't do it if I thought leonurus (or lycopus, for that matter) would be a

problem. In fact, I believe they will help. Among their other subtleties they

are, after all, moodlifters.



Cheers

Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 40 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



From lakshmi.kingcon.com Tue Dec 31 15:51:47 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] Motherwort-Melissa too

From: "Michelle Morton-niyama" <lakshmi.kingcon.com>

Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:51:47 -0500



> problem. In fact, I believe they will help. Among their other subtleties

they

> are, after all, moodlifters.

>

> Cheers

> Henriette



YES!

This is why I dont understand the contraindications recently(?) popping up

for these- They have both been traditionally given for depression-

postpartum, etc- which is a time when many women are hypothyroid- they have

both been such wonderful "mothers helpers".



Michelle



From lakshmi.kingcon.com Tue Dec 31 15:44:58 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: Re: [Herb] Motherwort-Melissa too

From: "Michelle Morton-niyama" <lakshmi.kingcon.com>

Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:44:58 -0500



Hello

I have heard and read that melissa is used for treating hyperthyroid- as a

fresh herbal juice.

This would make *me* think that a little of the herb in tea or in a nervine

tincture formula would not be contraindicated. It is such an excellent

nervine...

I would think one with slow thyroid tendencies(many) wouldnt take tons of

the tincture or the fresh juice...



Michelle



From sc62.charter.net Tue Dec 31 20:53:33 2002

To: <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>

Subject: [Herb] Motherwort

From: "Sandra C." <sc62.charter.net>

Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:53:33 -0500



I have graves disease, a form of hyPERthyroidism, and from what I have read,

motherwort is good for OVERactive thyroid, esp, with cardiac affectations.

Also recommended for hyper are bugleweed, and lemon balm tea. So these herbs

may be CONTRA-indicated for UNDERactive thyroid, as they would have the

opposite effect you need.



From hetta.saunalahti.fi Tue Dec 31 22:22:41 2002

To: herb.lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Re: [Herb] Motherwort

From: Henriette Kress <hetta.saunalahti.fi>

Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 22:22:41 +0200



"Sandra C." <sc62.charter.net> wrote to <herb.lists.ibiblio.org>:



> I have graves disease, a form of hyPERthyroidism, and from what I have read,

> motherwort is good for OVERactive thyroid, esp, with cardiac affectations.

> Also recommended for hyper are bugleweed, and lemon balm tea. So these herbs

> may be CONTRA-indicated for UNDERactive thyroid, as they would have the

> opposite effect you need.



Yes, that's what we were discussing. 



However, the fact that it calms down an overactive thyroid doesn't mean that

it's bad for an underactive thyroid.



Even as a theory it's shaky - moodlifters are generally good for hypothyroid

folks.



Which is why I'll be giving it to one of my hypothyroid ladies.



Henriette



-- 

Henriette Kress                                          Helsinki, Finland

Over 40 MB herbal .html files (FAQs, classic texts, articles, links), plus

pictures, zipped archives, the works, at:   http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed



